July 30, 2024 • 25 mins
Ever wonder how a simple childhood toy can shape your entire perception of beauty? On this episode of Unpacking Truths, we bring you the incredible Joy Mitchell, who candidly shares her journey from playing with Barbies to grappling with societal beauty norms. Joy dives into her experiences growing up with strong influences from her older sister and the Black community, helping us understand the profound impact of familial and societal definitions of beauty. We'll question how these standards match up to the often unrealistic images presented by media and toys, and consider where God's perspective fits into all of this.
We'll take you on a cultural exploration of beauty standards that vary dramatically from one society to another. Hear about the paradoxes that arise from skin-lightening practices in India versus the Western obsession with tanning. Get ready to question who really gets to set these standards as we discuss the pervasive pressure on body image that women face globally. Through personal stories of feeling self-conscious and the long road toward self-acceptance, this episode aims to inspire you to challenge societal norms and celebrate your unique features.
Our conversation wraps up with an empowering discussion on embracing natural hair and body positivity within the Black community. Joy reflects on her transition from relaxed to natural hair, influenced by cultural shifts toward celebrating natural curls and afros. We also delve into the critical task of raising daughters who love their natural appearance despite societal pressures.
By the end, you'll gain insights into how viewing oneself as "fearfully and wonderfully made" can influence self-worth, and the necessity of fostering a healthy self-image in our children amidst modern technology. Tune in for a spiritually enriching and profoundly human conversation on beauty standards, self-image, and growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Grab your coffee, open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with usas we unpack God's truths.
Hey, it's Pastor Mo and I haveinvited a dear friend of mine,
Joy Mitchell, with us today.
She is an incredible woman ofGod.
I know her through differentministry, types of events and
(00:29):
stuff like that.
Why don't you just tell us alittle bit about yourself?
Let us know some of the goodstuff and why I've gleaned onto
you because you're such a greatperson.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Hello everyone, my name is Joy Mitchell, so let's
see yeah, I know Pastor Mo fromministry.
I currently attend a churchwhere we think we were on a
panel together.
That's when I first met you, soit's been like it was before
COVID, so it's been a while.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And yes, I do some ministry work, a lot of things
similar to this, conversationsand just kind of that
discipleship in theunconventional way.
I work in higher ed.
I've been in higher ed foralmost 10 years.
I would say now, yeah, I haveto think about the time, yes,
and loving every moment of itright.
(01:16):
Oh absolutely yes, but I workas an administrator at a
university.
What else I do?
Photography on the side, thatis my small business.
Joymentchelfotographycom.
Little shout out what else.
I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm adaughter.
(01:39):
I'm originally from the southside of Chicago.
I'm the youngest of fivesiblings, so you're the baby,
like me, I'm the baby.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We're getting in trouble left and right.
Yeah, kinda kinda.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I mean, everybody kinda take care of me.
So that was nice.
What?
Yeah, people don't realize I'mthe baby, though, but yeah, so
I'm excited to have you join us.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Today.
We're gonna talk about a bigtopic beauty standards as toxic,
and so, whether we're men orwomen but I think especially
obviously we're coming out ofthe context of being women just
how beauty standards haveimpacted us, have affected us in
all aspects of our life andwhere God really fits in this,
(02:19):
and so I'd love for you.
Why don't we begin out?
Why don't you share one of yourearliest memories of when you
became aware of beauty, whetherin your family, in society?
Like when did beauty all of asudden yeah, just come into,
become important or somethingyou needed to focus on?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Mm-hmm, I think for me.
I'm not quite sure about an age, but I'm thinking about stuff I
play with, so like Barbies youknow, starting with Barbies.
Yeah, and I think especially now, compared to then, it's very
different.
Like I tell my daughter all thetime, there's such an array of
(02:58):
Barbie now, like different racesand sizes and shapes and hair.
Um, we had the standard Barbiewho presented as white.
So those were all my Barbies,or it was the one black girl
Barbie, it was just those twopretty much Did you have
majority white Barbies, but theylooked exactly alike.
You're like except for the colorof skin.
Yeah, they looked exactly alike.
(03:18):
I think I had a mixture prettymuch with my Barbies.
I think I had a mixture prettymuch with my Barbies.
But then, aside from that, Ithink I looked a lot to my
sister, my older sister, myyoungest older sister.
Like I would just watch whatshe would do because I was with
her a lot.
So whether she was doing herhair or makeup, I kind of
(03:41):
followed after her.
So she was kind of my standardof what that would look like.
Okay, and so like she taught mehow to do my hair.
She taught me a lot of stuffbecause growing up in a
single-family home, my sisterwould watch me a lot, so she
always refers to me as like hersister baby or her first baby.
Okay, so like she taught me howto do my hair when I had
(04:03):
relaxed hair.
I learned all of those thingsfrom her.
And then just the women thatwere around me and I think at
the time they had Jerry curls,oh, okay.
Oh yeah, black people got Jerrycurls on the hair.
It was like a version ofrelaxing your curls but it was
wet.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Right, it's like a greasy formula.
Yeah yeah, it was wet.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Gets all over everything.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And so I think that's probably like my beginning of
what it looked like.
But then Is that what beautylooked like?
Like jerry curls?
It was hair.
I think a lot, especially inblack culture, our hair is like
very important.
Yeah, so hair was definitelysomething and I think just
culturally, our bodies like it,like it's the big hips and booty
(04:47):
that is the thing like beingmore voluptuous.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Now did you have a big hipped bootied Barbie.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Because I haven't seen one of those.
They have them now, though.
Right, I'm like where was mybig butt, barbie, when I was a
kid?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Nope, I mean Nope, not then.
But yeah, barbies all shapesand sizes, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
So, even though you had these Barbies that were very
skinny right?
Yes, Because like Barbie if shewas real, I think like the
dimensions were like a 24-inchwaist and even like 14 to
17-year-old girls average a32-inch waist.
So I mean it's impossible.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
standards so I mean it's impossible standards.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
But do you feel like maybe your culture or your
family took on like the Barbie,like, oh, this is because you
still said you know bigger hips,bigger butt.
But I could say as a whitewoman it was skinny, like the
skinny or the bad, like bigbutts were not in you would
consider overweight, like it'sso different, or the jokes would
just come flying in.
But okay, so it's so different,or?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
the jokes would just come flying in.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But okay, so that's so that the Barbie and the dolls
didn't have any impact on.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Not, really, not really how about skin tone.
Wise Did it matter For me Iwould say no, and I think in
part it's because I think for me, with where I land, I guess on
the spectrum of color, I didn'treally deal with a lot of issues
with that.
But I had friends, women, youngor girls, who would deal with
(06:13):
that like if they were darkerskinned and that's still a thing
.
Colorism OK, especially within.
I mean, we already deal with itfrom the outside, but within
our community it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Explain it a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So like colorism on the spectrum of like if you're
darker, you're not as pretty oryou're real black, you know
stuff like that.
And so for me, knowing thatthere is a stigma for some black
people like I feel like now youknow that it's changed a little
bit, but there is still thisstigma of being darker I never
(06:47):
experienced that If you weremore fair or lighter or
somewhere in my range of skintone, you didn't get those types
of jokes.
But for the girls that weredarker skinned, they would get
those jokes and they would feellike you know, they would want
to be lighter.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And I think even around the world you'll see that
where there's this push to belighter or even to have more of
a European look like that, wewould experience that in
different ways.
And so for me, like even withmy daughter, when it comes to
like her Barbies, I get her allof the different types of colors
(07:20):
and hair and all the things,because I I know that that can
feed a your subconscious and youdon't realize it.
And I think for me, growing upand kind of, I guess, being a
millennial, with how we want toquestion everything and you know
why do we do that, you knowthings like that I think I try
to be very intentional aboutwhat I give her, my daughter.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I love that and I do find that, like, colonization is
a thing right and so, like whenI was in India or, but
ironically, when I was in WestAfrica, white skin is kind of
scary and it's not looked at asnecessarily beautiful.
But I think it was because ofthe area I was in Guinea that it
(08:03):
was so unfamiliar that I thinkit freaked out some of the
people Like what is happeninghere.
But I will say that in Indiawhat was a huge thing was skin
lightening cream.
I know for my daughters who arepart Mexican.
My oldest daughter asked forskin lightening cream when she
was a teenager.
(08:23):
She wanted lighter skin.
She didn't like how dark shewould get.
And then the irony in that isthat as a white woman, our big
thing was going oh, you got tolook sun-kissed, you got to look
tan, you got to get darker, andso it's this weird here are all
your fake lotions to make youtan and brown, and so it's like
there's this you know this ideal, and yet when and this is where
(08:47):
I think marketing kind of comesin the ideal of lighter, whiter
skin, but then unless you arelighter and whiter, then you
need darker skin, and so I'malmost like you know what is
happening here, and who are weallowing to dictate what is
beautiful or not.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
It's like we're trying to dothe opposite.
Yeah, and I think for me, and Istill struggle, but I try to be
mindful of just how I presentmyself and why, like, why am I
concerned about that thing, likewhether it be my size or my
(09:25):
hair?
I will try to be intentionalabout questioning why because a
lot of times it's the societal,you know, pressures, especially
for women Like you got to bethis small, like even with this
outfit.
I got complimented severaltimes and when I got ready this
morning I was like my stomach,my back, and I'm just like I'm
(09:45):
going to wear it anyway, I'mgoing to just wear it.
But I was very self-consciousbecause I'm just like you know,
I'm not the size I was beforechildren and again, I'm looking
at all of the imperfections andI'm like I'm going to wear this
outfit.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
But where do you think that, where do you think
that is coming out of?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I mean, I think it goes back to a society of you
have to look like this or thisis considered pretty, or
focusing so much on ourimperfections as a problem and
not as something that makes usunique or different, Right a
problem and not as somethingthat makes us unique or
different, Right, or just youknow, constantly there is still
(10:26):
the.
Even though we are becomingmore progressive in some ways in
society with what beauty is andnot that it's just one thing, I
still think you know that viewof bigger or if you look bigger
or fat, any of those things, itstill kind of plagues us a
little bit as women.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right.
And then it becomes like whogets to determine what bigger is
?
Or, you know, considered fat islike?
Who decides that?
And culturally, and?
And who are we allowing Rightthat and culturally?
And who are we allowing right?
Because even at the size I amright now, technically I'm
morbidly obese, because I'mheavy, my bones are heavy, the
(11:05):
armor of God is heavy, me too,and I'm short, Ladies and
gentlemen, but I have some big,thick bones.
I don't know.
I'm dense and I have rods in myback so that adds to the weight
way, I don't know.
So I'm just heavy.
But so when they, when theylook at my weight, they're like,
oh, technically, on that scale,I'm like, come on now, like
this is.
(11:25):
So I even think like, who getsto determine this stuff?
And so like I'm kind of curiousto what beauty, how have beauty
standards influenced you andyour self-image and your
self-esteem, like growing up andeven into now.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I mean, I think it's evolved.
I feel like for me, like so, ifI start with hair, yeah.
When I came to college, likebefore college, I had relaxed
hair.
I had a short like pixie cut.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I mean I like to change my hair up anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I like to change my hair up anyway.
Yeah, but I think there waslike this move in the culture
and when I say the culture likeblack culture, of we're going to
stop relaxing our hair andembrace our afro and our curly,
our natural curls that actuallygrow out of our head, yeah, and
I was.
It was something I alwayswanted to try and I said when I
go to college, I'm just, I'mjust see, yeah, and I think I
(12:14):
just end up cutting my hair off.
I just cut it off.
You didn't like the way itlooked, I liked it.
I think it was a big step to dothat, because I had had
relaxers since I was a littlegirl, so I was used to the
chemical burns and you know,just got to let it sit until it
gets bone straight.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
And just okay, like almost in tears.
Well, and that you say that,like still to this day, straight
hair is considered the mostbeautiful or the most desired.
A long hair, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Oh yeah, when I remember because I'm an ex-cop
as well I remember you know I'mthe shorty already I used to get
teased Like if you ever saw,like police academy yeah, always
being called hooks from policeacademy um, and I remember I
relaxed my hair and I rememberthere was a guy he was a lawyer,
(13:06):
he's actually a judge now.
He was like I came to work withmy hair straight and then I
think a couple days later later,I mean it curls up.
So I came in and he was likenow why did you go and do that?
Your hair was so pretty and itwas so nice looking and in my
mind I was just like this is nota compliment.
(13:28):
And I think for me, as I'vegotten older, I think I want to
rebel against that more, and Ithink I want to rebel against
that more.
So, like even now, with mydaughter being in predominantly
white schools and stuff likethat, there is a standard that
she sees like of what's pretty.
Or even if there's biracialgirls, they'll have their hair
straight all the time.
(13:49):
It's like no, don't keep, don'thave it curly.
And so for my daughter, I tryto be intentional about her
wearing her hair in differentways, loving her afro.
When she wears it and she doesshe's confident in it, or if she
wants to braid it, or if shedoes want to straighten it, just
not feeling like that's theonly you know standard.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Like she has to to be beautiful.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So I try to be intentional with that.
So again, the hair is important, yeah, again the hair is
important, yeah.
But then when it comes to likeeven my body, I remember being
self-conscious about havingbigger legs, like thick legs,
and I don't know why, because Ilike my legs.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
But at one point I was just like oh, they're so big
Because you don't want to walkon little sticks?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, I don't.
Nobody wants chicken legs, notfor me.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I mean people work hard in the gym for some thick
legs.
They do, they do.
People would die for your legs.
Yeah, some gentlemen with largetops wish they had your legs.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah.
So I'm like trying, I think,for me, just trying to look and
see myself as God sees meno-transcript.
(15:03):
And there was a lot ofscripture.
Like you know, I am fearfullyand wonderfully made.
That scripture always comes upfor me, like Psalms 139, 14.
And I went and kind ofresearched and I know sometimes
words mean something differentthen.
And so, like fearfully andwonderfully made, when I looked
at that, um, talking about beingmade like with, with reverence,
yes, With intentionality, yes,and so I'm like as a believer,
(15:29):
if, if that is who God says I am, then I need to frame my mind,
even in the world, even in the,you know the carnality of what
we live in, living in this body.
You know I have to reframe howI view things.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So, even when it comes to like the standard, of
beauty, because are we sayingwhat you made, god isn't good,
right, which is kind of whatwe're saying?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yes, and so, like, when I look at it like that, it
helps me to, you know, work onit.
So, even when it comes toweight like for me, if I am
focused on weight there for one,there's something I could do
about that.
I can take care of my body.
And so, instead of like becauseI would say probably the other
day I was like it was somethingthat I wanted to wear, I think I
(16:13):
had an outfit that I found andI couldn't fit it, but I had
that outfit before I had mythird child.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I mean give yourself some grace, Exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
And I often don't.
And so Chris was like, are youOK?
And he was like you know I needto, you know I need to work out
too, and I'm just like sittingthere, like not how you need to
work out too.
You know he was trying to youknow, pump me up.
But I'm like you know, if Iwant to do that, then there are
things that I could do to dothat, but it doesn't mean that
(16:45):
I'm less than Right.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And why do I want to?
I mean, it's always good towant to get healthier, but the
why Is it?
Because I don't think I'mbeautiful now.
Is it because I don't think I'mattractive now and I can't help
but think of?
And you have a young daughter.
I have daughters that are alittle bit older, that are older
, but they're still young, whenAI and filters and all that is
(17:10):
becoming such a natural part ofwhat they do online and little
kids are being handed iPads andphones and those filters
actually do something to us,where we look at ourselves and
the filter goes on and we'relike, oh my goodness, this is so
beautiful because it's abnormalperfection.
And then, when the filter goesoff, you become depressed and
they're finding that and whatwe're subjecting our children to
(17:33):
when their brains aredeveloping is that, hey, the way
you are naturally is not goodenough.
And then we got people like theKardashians up in there and I
mean they're famous for nothing,but I mean they've had lots of.
I mean they're really famousfor nothing, they've even been.
But I think what bothers me themost about them and I'm all
(17:56):
about women do what you do, getyour you know.
But is the saying, oh, this isreal, and no, I didn't get, you
know, a breast job.
And no, I didn't get a nose job.
And no, I didn't get light bone, no, I didn't get all these
things, when the truth is, it'sokay that you did own that you
did so that young women don'tthink that that's a like that.
(18:19):
That is something that just ifyou buy this cream because
they've been sued for millions,because they're trying to sell
all this stuff diet pills,creams when the truth is known,
they had lipo and they had a BBLand they had a boob job and
they had a chin tuck or whatever.
I mean like keep it real right,Like you too can have this face
(18:41):
if you get it reconstructed, youknow.
But I love that you're speakinginto scripture that you used
to— Put things back into God'struth.
Right that we are sayingsomething.
I'm all about beauty stuff, Ilove trying new things and doing
(19:02):
new things, but we are sayingsomething when we're not happy
in our skin right, yeah.
And have you found?
Since your daughter is younger,I don't know how much social
media you expose her to or allowher to see online Are you
dealing with any of this?
A?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
little bit.
So we moved a little over ayear ago, and so a lot of the
girls are wearing yoga pants allday and you know they wear a
certain outfit.
And so what I found is shefinally told me she sneaks and
goes in the bathroom and changesher clothes To yoga pants.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yes, I mean, they are really comfy, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
I'm like what?
But then it became well, I likemy thighs.
And then it became like youknow, this is how my friends are
doing it and I'm like well, whyare you doing that?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
And so we try to talk through that and I try to
lightly, I try not to beirritated.
I mean, I mean, to be honest,it is very irritating.
But even with social media,right now I don't, I don't have
allow her to have like Snapchator anything like that.
I don't feel like she'smentally prepared for some of
(20:15):
the things that come with thatand the exposure.
I don't think she's matureenough yet.
Um, she's definitely axed, butum, even in that, like, if she
watches YouTube, the shorts areon there so she'll see that
stuff, and um, but I think rightnow she still is.
She's not like set on, likewanting, like you know, the lace
(20:36):
, front, wigs and all of thatand that's a lot of the girls
now Like it's the wigs, it's theexcessive makeup sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
And just having a look all the time All the time
Like always being on, so she'snot there.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And that's a real thing.
They're talking about how we'reskipping that gawky stage where
you have braces.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, that's a real thing.
They're talking about how we'reskipping that gawky stage where
you have braces and acne andyou're a little.
You know you get the littlepudgy.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You know all the yeah like going right to glamour
Because of social media andeverything they see.
They see perfection, they seecontoured faces, they see
filters, they see hair with the,you know, lace fronts.
Wigs I mean all of it is soperfect.
Yes, which wigs?
I mean all of it is so perfect,yes, which, by the way, I wish
I really looked good in a wigbecause the girl tried, I tried
to do, I tried, I went to thebest wig places.
(21:23):
My girlfriend, other friendswent with me to help me because
I was like not do my hair allday.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yes, the girls I see they.
They're losing hair becauseit's ripping everything out with
all the glue.
Well, we've rips hair out, itdoes.
Yeah, I don't know you do toomuch my extensions.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
And then, yeah, but if we find our worth and our
beauty in these things.
And so what would you recommendas strong women who know who we
are and our beauty in Christ?
What do you recommend for thewomen coming up, or men, young
men too, Like?
What do you recommend for themin understanding what it means
(22:03):
to be beautiful?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I think you have to and it comes with time.
You have to develop your ownstandard of who you are and it
has to be unapologetic.
And I think for me, a littlebit, every day I'm becoming more
and more unapologetic, becauseit will still come up.
You'll still compare.
You know, as humans we do that.
I think it's just within ournature to compare and to look at
(22:27):
what we don't have.
But I think for me, I've come toa place where I'm like, if
there's something that I'm notsatisfied with because I'm just
wholeheartedly not satisfiedwith it, whether it be my weight
or my hair, I could dosomething to change that, if
that's what I want to do, andthen also understanding that you
know there's only one joy, soI'm unique, because that alone
(22:52):
God created me.
You know specifically to be whoI am God's masterpiece, yes,
and so if I look at myself likethat, that helps me.
But again, I understand alsowith that.
That comes with time, thatcomes with maturity, that comes
with not giving a care.
You know, at a certain point, Ilove that.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Be unapologetically you and who God created you to
be.
We would love to hear what youhave to say about beauty
standards.
If your family culture whateverit is you feel has influenced
you and what you thought wasbeautiful and how, how have you
dealt with that.
How has God helped you withthat Work through that move
through that.
We'd love to hear about yourjourney Um unpacking truthscom.
(23:32):
Leave any comments or umanything, any practices that you
think will be helpful forothers, because this is a topic
we need to be talking about.
Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Next time on Unpacking Truths disciplines of
worship, of devotional time, ofreading scripture, of prayer, of
meditation, but also othersorts of disciplines that help
us that when we practice them ashabits and habits sound like
bad things, but practicaldisciplines we're opening
ourselves up to looking for God.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
We're opening ourselves to hearing and sensing
God, rather than just runningthrough our day and just missing
the moments where God shows up.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Grab your coffee, open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with usas we unpack God's truths.
Hey, it's Pastor Mo and I haveinvited a dear friend of mine,
Joy Mitchell, with us today.
She is an incredible woman ofGod.
I know her through differentministry, types of events and
(00:29):
stuff like that.
Why don't you just tell us alittle bit about yourself?
Let us know some of the goodstuff and why I've gleaned onto
you because you're such a greatperson.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Hello everyone, my name is Joy Mitchell, so let's
see yeah, I know Pastor Mo fromministry.
I currently attend a churchwhere we think we were on a
panel together.
That's when I first met you, soit's been like it was before
COVID, so it's been a while.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
And yes, I do some ministry work, a lot of things
similar to this, conversationsand just kind of that
discipleship in theunconventional way.
I work in higher ed.
I've been in higher ed foralmost 10 years.
I would say now, yeah, I haveto think about the time, yes,
and loving every moment of itright.
(01:16):
Oh absolutely yes, but I workas an administrator at a
university.
What else I do?
Photography on the side, thatis my small business.
Joymentchelfotographycom.
Little shout out what else.
I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm adaughter.
(01:39):
I'm originally from the southside of Chicago.
I'm the youngest of fivesiblings, so you're the baby,
like me, I'm the baby.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We're getting in trouble left and right.
Yeah, kinda kinda.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I mean, everybody kinda take care of me.
So that was nice.
What?
Yeah, people don't realize I'mthe baby, though, but yeah, so
I'm excited to have you join us.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Today.
We're gonna talk about a bigtopic beauty standards as toxic,
and so, whether we're men orwomen but I think especially
obviously we're coming out ofthe context of being women just
how beauty standards haveimpacted us, have affected us in
all aspects of our life andwhere God really fits in this,
(02:19):
and so I'd love for you.
Why don't we begin out?
Why don't you share one of yourearliest memories of when you
became aware of beauty, whetherin your family, in society?
Like when did beauty all of asudden yeah, just come into,
become important or somethingyou needed to focus on?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Mm-hmm, I think for me.
I'm not quite sure about an age, but I'm thinking about stuff I
play with, so like Barbies youknow, starting with Barbies.
Yeah, and I think especially now, compared to then, it's very
different.
Like I tell my daughter all thetime, there's such an array of
(02:58):
Barbie now, like different racesand sizes and shapes and hair.
Um, we had the standard Barbiewho presented as white.
So those were all my Barbies,or it was the one black girl
Barbie, it was just those twopretty much Did you have
majority white Barbies, but theylooked exactly alike.
You're like except for the colorof skin.
Yeah, they looked exactly alike.
(03:18):
I think I had a mixture prettymuch with my Barbies.
I think I had a mixture prettymuch with my Barbies.
But then, aside from that, Ithink I looked a lot to my
sister, my older sister, myyoungest older sister.
Like I would just watch whatshe would do because I was with
her a lot.
So whether she was doing herhair or makeup, I kind of
(03:41):
followed after her.
So she was kind of my standardof what that would look like.
Okay, and so like she taught mehow to do my hair.
She taught me a lot of stuffbecause growing up in a
single-family home, my sisterwould watch me a lot, so she
always refers to me as like hersister baby or her first baby.
Okay, so like she taught me howto do my hair when I had
(04:03):
relaxed hair.
I learned all of those thingsfrom her.
And then just the women thatwere around me and I think at
the time they had Jerry curls,oh, okay.
Oh yeah, black people got Jerrycurls on the hair.
It was like a version ofrelaxing your curls but it was
wet.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Right, it's like a greasy formula.
Yeah yeah, it was wet.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Gets all over everything.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And so I think that's probably like my beginning of
what it looked like.
But then Is that what beautylooked like?
Like jerry curls?
It was hair.
I think a lot, especially inblack culture, our hair is like
very important.
Yeah, so hair was definitelysomething and I think just
culturally, our bodies like it,like it's the big hips and booty
(04:47):
that is the thing like beingmore voluptuous.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Now did you have a big hipped bootied Barbie.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Because I haven't seen one of those.
They have them now, though.
Right, I'm like where was mybig butt, barbie, when I was a
kid?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Nope, I mean Nope, not then.
But yeah, barbies all shapesand sizes, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
So, even though you had these Barbies that were very
skinny right?
Yes, Because like Barbie if shewas real, I think like the
dimensions were like a 24-inchwaist and even like 14 to
17-year-old girls average a32-inch waist.
So I mean it's impossible.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
standards so I mean it's impossible standards.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
But do you feel like maybe your culture or your
family took on like the Barbie,like, oh, this is because you
still said you know bigger hips,bigger butt.
But I could say as a whitewoman it was skinny, like the
skinny or the bad, like bigbutts were not in you would
consider overweight, like it'sso different, or the jokes would
just come flying in.
But okay, so it's so different,or?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
the jokes would just come flying in.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But okay, so that's so that the Barbie and the dolls
didn't have any impact on.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Not, really, not really how about skin tone.
Wise Did it matter For me Iwould say no, and I think in
part it's because I think for me, with where I land, I guess on
the spectrum of color, I didn'treally deal with a lot of issues
with that.
But I had friends, women, youngor girls, who would deal with
(06:13):
that like if they were darkerskinned and that's still a thing
.
Colorism OK, especially within.
I mean, we already deal with itfrom the outside, but within
our community it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Explain it a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So like colorism on the spectrum of like if you're
darker, you're not as pretty oryou're real black, you know
stuff like that.
And so for me, knowing thatthere is a stigma for some black
people like I feel like now youknow that it's changed a little
bit, but there is still thisstigma of being darker I never
(06:47):
experienced that If you weremore fair or lighter or
somewhere in my range of skintone, you didn't get those types
of jokes.
But for the girls that weredarker skinned, they would get
those jokes and they would feellike you know, they would want
to be lighter.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
And I think even around the world you'll see that
where there's this push to belighter or even to have more of
a European look like that, wewould experience that in
different ways.
And so for me, like even withmy daughter, when it comes to
like her Barbies, I get her allof the different types of colors
(07:20):
and hair and all the things,because I I know that that can
feed a your subconscious and youdon't realize it.
And I think for me, growing upand kind of, I guess, being a
millennial, with how we want toquestion everything and you know
why do we do that, you knowthings like that I think I try
to be very intentional aboutwhat I give her, my daughter.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I love that and I do find that, like, colonization is
a thing right and so, like whenI was in India or, but
ironically, when I was in WestAfrica, white skin is kind of
scary and it's not looked at asnecessarily beautiful.
But I think it was because ofthe area I was in Guinea that it
(08:03):
was so unfamiliar that I thinkit freaked out some of the
people Like what is happeninghere.
But I will say that in Indiawhat was a huge thing was skin
lightening cream.
I know for my daughters who arepart Mexican.
My oldest daughter asked forskin lightening cream when she
was a teenager.
(08:23):
She wanted lighter skin.
She didn't like how dark shewould get.
And then the irony in that isthat as a white woman, our big
thing was going oh, you got tolook sun-kissed, you got to look
tan, you got to get darker, andso it's this weird here are all
your fake lotions to make youtan and brown, and so it's like
there's this you know this ideal, and yet when and this is where
(08:47):
I think marketing kind of comesin the ideal of lighter, whiter
skin, but then unless you arelighter and whiter, then you
need darker skin, and so I'malmost like you know what is
happening here, and who are weallowing to dictate what is
beautiful or not.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
It's like we're trying to dothe opposite.
Yeah, and I think for me, and Istill struggle, but I try to be
mindful of just how I presentmyself and why, like, why am I
concerned about that thing, likewhether it be my size or my
(09:25):
hair?
I will try to be intentionalabout questioning why because a
lot of times it's the societal,you know, pressures, especially
for women Like you got to bethis small, like even with this
outfit.
I got complimented severaltimes and when I got ready this
morning I was like my stomach,my back, and I'm just like I'm
(09:45):
going to wear it anyway, I'mgoing to just wear it.
But I was very self-consciousbecause I'm just like you know,
I'm not the size I was beforechildren and again, I'm looking
at all of the imperfections andI'm like I'm going to wear this
outfit.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
But where do you think that, where do you think
that is coming out of?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I mean, I think it goes back to a society of you
have to look like this or thisis considered pretty, or
focusing so much on ourimperfections as a problem and
not as something that makes usunique or different, Right a
problem and not as somethingthat makes us unique or
different, Right, or just youknow, constantly there is still
(10:26):
the.
Even though we are becomingmore progressive in some ways in
society with what beauty is andnot that it's just one thing, I
still think you know that viewof bigger or if you look bigger
or fat, any of those things, itstill kind of plagues us a
little bit as women.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right.
And then it becomes like whogets to determine what bigger is
?
Or, you know, considered fat islike?
Who decides that?
And culturally, and?
And who are we allowing Rightthat and culturally?
And who are we allowing right?
Because even at the size I amright now, technically I'm
morbidly obese, because I'mheavy, my bones are heavy, the
(11:05):
armor of God is heavy, me too,and I'm short, Ladies and
gentlemen, but I have some big,thick bones.
I don't know.
I'm dense and I have rods in myback so that adds to the weight
way, I don't know.
So I'm just heavy.
But so when they, when theylook at my weight, they're like,
oh, technically, on that scale,I'm like, come on now, like
this is.
(11:25):
So I even think like, who getsto determine this stuff?
And so like I'm kind of curiousto what beauty, how have beauty
standards influenced you andyour self-image and your
self-esteem, like growing up andeven into now.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
I mean, I think it's evolved.
I feel like for me, like so, ifI start with hair, yeah.
When I came to college, likebefore college, I had relaxed
hair.
I had a short like pixie cut.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I mean I like to change my hair up anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I like to change my hair up anyway.
Yeah, but I think there waslike this move in the culture
and when I say the culture likeblack culture, of we're going to
stop relaxing our hair andembrace our afro and our curly,
our natural curls that actuallygrow out of our head, yeah, and
I was.
It was something I alwayswanted to try and I said when I
go to college, I'm just, I'mjust see, yeah, and I think I
(12:14):
just end up cutting my hair off.
I just cut it off.
You didn't like the way itlooked, I liked it.
I think it was a big step to dothat, because I had had
relaxers since I was a littlegirl, so I was used to the
chemical burns and you know,just got to let it sit until it
gets bone straight.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
And just okay, like almost in tears.
Well, and that you say that,like still to this day, straight
hair is considered the mostbeautiful or the most desired.
A long hair, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Oh yeah, when I remember because I'm an ex-cop
as well I remember you know I'mthe shorty already I used to get
teased Like if you ever saw,like police academy yeah, always
being called hooks from policeacademy um, and I remember I
relaxed my hair and I rememberthere was a guy he was a lawyer,
(13:06):
he's actually a judge now.
He was like I came to work withmy hair straight and then I
think a couple days later later,I mean it curls up.
So I came in and he was likenow why did you go and do that?
Your hair was so pretty and itwas so nice looking and in my
mind I was just like this is nota compliment.
(13:28):
And I think for me, as I'vegotten older, I think I want to
rebel against that more, and Ithink I want to rebel against
that more.
So, like even now, with mydaughter being in predominantly
white schools and stuff likethat, there is a standard that
she sees like of what's pretty.
Or even if there's biracialgirls, they'll have their hair
straight all the time.
(13:49):
It's like no, don't keep, don'thave it curly.
And so for my daughter, I tryto be intentional about her
wearing her hair in differentways, loving her afro.
When she wears it and she doesshe's confident in it, or if she
wants to braid it, or if shedoes want to straighten it, just
not feeling like that's theonly you know standard.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Like she has to to be beautiful.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So I try to be intentional with that.
So again, the hair is important, yeah, again the hair is
important, yeah.
But then when it comes to likeeven my body, I remember being
self-conscious about havingbigger legs, like thick legs,
and I don't know why, because Ilike my legs.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
But at one point I was just like oh, they're so big
Because you don't want to walkon little sticks?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Yeah, I don't.
Nobody wants chicken legs, notfor me.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I mean people work hard in the gym for some thick
legs.
They do, they do.
People would die for your legs.
Yeah, some gentlemen with largetops wish they had your legs.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah.
So I'm like trying, I think,for me, just trying to look and
see myself as God sees meno-transcript.
(15:03):
And there was a lot ofscripture.
Like you know, I am fearfullyand wonderfully made.
That scripture always comes upfor me, like Psalms 139, 14.
And I went and kind ofresearched and I know sometimes
words mean something differentthen.
And so, like fearfully andwonderfully made, when I looked
at that, um, talking about beingmade like with, with reverence,
yes, With intentionality, yes,and so I'm like as a believer,
(15:29):
if, if that is who God says I am, then I need to frame my mind,
even in the world, even in the,you know the carnality of what
we live in, living in this body.
You know I have to reframe howI view things.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So, even when it comes to like the standard, of
beauty, because are we sayingwhat you made, god isn't good,
right, which is kind of whatwe're saying?
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yes, and so, like, when I look at it like that, it
helps me to, you know, work onit.
So, even when it comes toweight like for me, if I am
focused on weight there for one,there's something I could do
about that.
I can take care of my body.
And so, instead of like becauseI would say probably the other
day I was like it was somethingthat I wanted to wear, I think I
(16:13):
had an outfit that I found andI couldn't fit it, but I had
that outfit before I had mythird child.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I mean give yourself some grace, Exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
And I often don't.
And so Chris was like, are youOK?
And he was like you know I needto, you know I need to work out
too, and I'm just like sittingthere, like not how you need to
work out too.
You know he was trying to youknow, pump me up.
But I'm like you know, if Iwant to do that, then there are
things that I could do to dothat, but it doesn't mean that
(16:45):
I'm less than Right.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And why do I want to?
I mean, it's always good towant to get healthier, but the
why Is it?
Because I don't think I'mbeautiful now.
Is it because I don't think I'mattractive now and I can't help
but think of?
And you have a young daughter.
I have daughters that are alittle bit older, that are older
, but they're still young, whenAI and filters and all that is
(17:10):
becoming such a natural part ofwhat they do online and little
kids are being handed iPads andphones and those filters
actually do something to us,where we look at ourselves and
the filter goes on and we'relike, oh my goodness, this is so
beautiful because it's abnormalperfection.
And then, when the filter goesoff, you become depressed and
they're finding that and whatwe're subjecting our children to
(17:33):
when their brains aredeveloping is that, hey, the way
you are naturally is not goodenough.
And then we got people like theKardashians up in there and I
mean they're famous for nothing,but I mean they've had lots of.
I mean they're really famousfor nothing, they've even been.
But I think what bothers me themost about them and I'm all
(17:56):
about women do what you do, getyour you know.
But is the saying, oh, this isreal, and no, I didn't get, you
know, a breast job.
And no, I didn't get a nose job.
And no, I didn't get light bone, no, I didn't get all these
things, when the truth is, it'sokay that you did own that you
did so that young women don'tthink that that's a like that.
(18:19):
That is something that just ifyou buy this cream because
they've been sued for millions,because they're trying to sell
all this stuff diet pills,creams when the truth is known,
they had lipo and they had a BBLand they had a boob job and
they had a chin tuck or whatever.
I mean like keep it real right,Like you too can have this face
(18:41):
if you get it reconstructed, youknow.
But I love that you're speakinginto scripture that you used
to— Put things back into God'struth.
Right that we are sayingsomething.
I'm all about beauty stuff, Ilove trying new things and doing
(19:02):
new things, but we are sayingsomething when we're not happy
in our skin right, yeah.
And have you found?
Since your daughter is younger,I don't know how much social
media you expose her to or allowher to see online Are you
dealing with any of this?
A?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
little bit.
So we moved a little over ayear ago, and so a lot of the
girls are wearing yoga pants allday and you know they wear a
certain outfit.
And so what I found is shefinally told me she sneaks and
goes in the bathroom and changesher clothes To yoga pants.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yes, I mean, they are really comfy, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
I'm like what?
But then it became well, I likemy thighs.
And then it became like youknow, this is how my friends are
doing it and I'm like well, whyare you doing that?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
And so we try to talk through that and I try to
lightly, I try not to beirritated.
I mean, I mean, to be honest,it is very irritating.
But even with social media,right now I don't, I don't have
allow her to have like Snapchator anything like that.
I don't feel like she'smentally prepared for some of
(20:15):
the things that come with thatand the exposure.
I don't think she's matureenough yet.
Um, she's definitely axed, butum, even in that, like, if she
watches YouTube, the shorts areon there so she'll see that
stuff, and um, but I think rightnow she still is.
She's not like set on, likewanting, like you know, the lace
(20:36):
, front, wigs and all of thatand that's a lot of the girls
now Like it's the wigs, it's theexcessive makeup sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
And just having a look all the time All the time
Like always being on, so she'snot there.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And that's a real thing.
They're talking about how we'reskipping that gawky stage where
you have braces.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, that's a real thing.
They're talking about how we'reskipping that gawky stage where
you have braces and acne andyou're a little.
You know you get the littlepudgy.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You know all the yeah like going right to glamour
Because of social media andeverything they see.
They see perfection, they seecontoured faces, they see
filters, they see hair with the,you know, lace fronts.
Wigs I mean all of it is soperfect.
Yes, which wigs?
I mean all of it is so perfect,yes, which, by the way, I wish
I really looked good in a wigbecause the girl tried, I tried
to do, I tried, I went to thebest wig places.
(21:23):
My girlfriend, other friendswent with me to help me because
I was like not do my hair allday.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yes, the girls I see they.
They're losing hair becauseit's ripping everything out with
all the glue.
Well, we've rips hair out, itdoes.
Yeah, I don't know you do toomuch my extensions.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
And then, yeah, but if we find our worth and our
beauty in these things.
And so what would you recommendas strong women who know who we
are and our beauty in Christ?
What do you recommend for thewomen coming up, or men, young
men too, Like?
What do you recommend for themin understanding what it means
(22:03):
to be beautiful?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
I think you have to and it comes with time.
You have to develop your ownstandard of who you are and it
has to be unapologetic.
And I think for me, a littlebit, every day I'm becoming more
and more unapologetic, becauseit will still come up.
You'll still compare.
You know, as humans we do that.
I think it's just within ournature to compare and to look at
(22:27):
what we don't have.
But I think for me, I've come toa place where I'm like, if
there's something that I'm notsatisfied with because I'm just
wholeheartedly not satisfiedwith it, whether it be my weight
or my hair, I could dosomething to change that, if
that's what I want to do, andthen also understanding that you
know there's only one joy, soI'm unique, because that alone
(22:52):
God created me.
You know specifically to be whoI am God's masterpiece, yes,
and so if I look at myself likethat, that helps me.
But again, I understand alsowith that.
That comes with time, thatcomes with maturity, that comes
with not giving a care.
You know, at a certain point, Ilove that.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Be unapologetically you and who God created you to
be.
We would love to hear what youhave to say about beauty
standards.
If your family culture whateverit is you feel has influenced
you and what you thought wasbeautiful and how, how have you
dealt with that.
How has God helped you withthat Work through that move
through that.
We'd love to hear about yourjourney Um unpacking truthscom.
(23:32):
Leave any comments or umanything, any practices that you
think will be helpful forothers, because this is a topic
we need to be talking about.
Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Next time on Unpacking Truths disciplines of
worship, of devotional time, ofreading scripture, of prayer, of
meditation, but also othersorts of disciplines that help
us that when we practice them ashabits and habits sound like
bad things, but practicaldisciplines we're opening
ourselves up to looking for God.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
We're opening ourselves to hearing and sensing
God, rather than just runningthrough our day and just missing
the moments where God shows up.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
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