October 1, 2024 • 24 mins
How should Christians navigate the contentious waters of politics and religion? Join us in an eye-opening episode of "Unpacking Truths" as Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo explore the deeply rooted scriptural values that underpin both Republican and Democratic ideologies. Discover how personal and communal responsibilities, often seen as opposing forces, are both central to Christian teachings. Drawing on biblical texts, historical figures, and John Yoder's concept of Jesus' kinship society, we challenge the notion that any one political party holds the monopoly on Christian values.
Navigating political conversations with humility and love becomes crucial during election seasons, as highlighted in our discussion. We emphasize balancing personal beliefs with societal needs and encourage curiosity over judgment to foster meaningful dialogue. Reflect on the appropriate settings for these intense discussions and the importance of identifying the core essentials of faith, as guided by the Holy Spirit. Prioritize what truly matters and let go of peripheral issues to ensure a grounded faith journey. Engage with us further by visiting our website, emailing your thoughts, and helping others grow by liking, sharing, or subscribing.
Help share this podcast with others, so they can experience the freedom of God's truth, and we unpack it together! Like, share, subscribe or visit unpackingtruths.com for more info!
Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe for more Unpacking Truths!
🎙️ Listen to Unpacking Truths on your favorite platforms:
✝️ Connect with Unpacking Truths:
- UnpackingTruths.com
- UnpackingTruths@locchurch.com
😃 Connect with Unpacking Truths on Social Media:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you for tuning in.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where Pastor Kendall and I are
going to do our best, by thegrace of God, with the Holy
Spirit, to unpack the truth of atopic that we all love politics
and religion.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Oh Mo, Was this your brilliant idea.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, you know what I'm a glutton for punishment.
What can I say?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well, I think it is an important topic.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I mean in.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And a topic that often, as Christians in the
church, we avoid.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well or do really poorly at oh yeah, oh yeah.
Yeah, so we're going to try anddo a little better than poorly
here today Just a smidge, butwe'll see.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
You'll be the judges of that Low expectations, so
that we, you know, hopefully hitour goal.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think there is a sense where you know people have
often said you know in politecompany you shouldn't talk about
religion and politics, and Ithink they say that.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Or on a first date.
Or on a first date, yeah,unless you don't like them, use
that.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, that may be a strategy.
Say that because they knowthere is so much passion
involved in both of those topicsthat often people start
engaging out of their passionand don't reflect on how it's
coming off to others.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Right, or the fact that their face is getting
really red and veins are poppingout of the side of their head
and they're spitting on you onaccident because it's protruding
from.
I'm sorry, I was reliving afamily moment.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So you know, Mo, I wanted I mean there's so many
places I mean this is a topicyou can do multiple, multiple
episodes on, but we're notplanning on that.
We're shooting it in one, orgetting ourselves shot in one,
one or the other, but I thinkthe one of the places that I
want to start is just engaging,something that has frustrated me
(02:11):
.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Is within the church world and I have foot in
different camps within thechurch world.
I have some folks to one sideof the spectrum, one to the
other, and they point and theysay this is the Christian
perspective to have.
If you're really a Christfollower, here's how you should
see things.
Or people on the other sidesaid if you're really a Christ
(02:34):
follower, here's how you shouldsee things.
And where I wanted to start isjust doing this a little bit
deeper.
Look at that question, becausefor me, when I look at the
two-party system here in theUnited States, with Democratic
and Republican parties, what Isee is that a core value that
each one sort of springs out ofa different sort of core value.
(02:57):
That the Republican Party, inmy perception of it, springs out
of more of this core value ofpersonal responsibility.
My perception of it springs outof more of this core value of
personal responsibility,individual responsibility that I
need to take responsibility formy action, and that the
Democratic Party more comes outof a communal responsibility
(03:17):
that we need to be responsiblefor this wider community.
And for me, both of thoseanimating core values are
scriptural.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
In that you know, joshua in the Old Testament says
choose this day who you willserve, but as for me and my
house, we will serve the Lord,he said.
I'm personally responsible forthat choice.
Right In 2 Thessalonians 3,paul says even while we were
with you, we gave you thiscommand those unwilling to work
will not get to eat.
Sort of personal responsibility.
(03:49):
That is core in scripture.
But so is communalresponsibility from the sort of
the democratic perspective.
The Old Testament prophetsagain and again calling people
to say it's not just about you,you have responsibility for the
widow, the orphan and friendscheck it out the foreigner in
your midst.
That you have responsibilityfor that wider community.
(04:10):
So for me to say that one isthe only biblical or Christian
response is inaccurate, becauseboth animating core pieces are
scriptural and that we have tolive as Christians and as
citizens of this country in thetension of both of those.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Absolutely, and I kind of want to touch on this.
So when I was doing my researchfor this, I went back into a
book by John Yoder, the Politicsof Jesus, and it kind of speaks
into this third option, and Ijust want to preface this by
saying that John Yoder has donesome unethical things that I
absolutely do not agree with.
(04:49):
However, I do think it'simportant for us to take certain
things and take the good out ofwhat some people have done and
not throw the baby out with thebathwater.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Per se, right, like Martin, Luther, you might have
written some good things, butdone some bad things.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yes, martin Luther, whom our Lutheranism comes out
of right.
He was accused of anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Not accused of he did .
He was yes.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And Jonathan Edward owned slaves.
So there are these things thatare considered evil and wrong
and not in alignment with God'skingdom, and yet these are also
people that really produce somethings that I think help us
understand God more and how tolive in the world, and so I just
want to preface that.
But so John Yoder he speaksinto the politics of Jesus, and
(05:36):
one of the things he says isJesus had a politic, that was a
kinship society and so-.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Are you saying K I N G?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Kin like a family.
Oh K I N Kin Ship, okay, yeah,and so, so like, as there's
Democrat, there's Republican,and yet we aren't to find our
identity in those politicalparties, right, and so the
values they have and hold, theyare not something we live out of
, every single piece of it,right?
So even Republicans are like Iagree with all these things, but
(06:08):
not this within the RepublicanParty, or this idea or that idea
, or vice versa.
However, in Jesus' politic,right, this kinship, our
identity, does come out of this.
Our identity does come out ofthis politic.
Who we are, how we treat oneanother, is to come out of these
beliefs, and so it's all aboutthe kingdom of God.
(06:31):
And the kingdom of God thatJesus speaks into is all about
this idea of the jubilee year,and the jubilee year was
something that happened every, Ithink it was.
What is it?
Every 50 years, right?
And so that is when you forgiveall debts, you know, you, you
are to leave your land so thatthe poor can, you know, glean
(06:53):
from it, and you are to, uh,release and set the slaves free
that you have, like all thesereally gracious giving, feed the
poor, care for others Uh, how'sthose, those?
If you have extra, you know?
And so it's just living out ofthis way, regardless of the cost
.
And so if it does come upagainst and butt up against the
(07:17):
powers that be, thenindividually you do have a
problem and you, you know, youbecome, you know, an issue with
the powers that be, thegovernment, the, the established
authority, right, and that'sokay, and you could lose your
life.
And so I thought that wasreally interesting.
As you say, you know, here'sthis individualistic approach,
(07:38):
here's this communal approach.
And then also, when I hearJesus would do this, jesus would
do that, well, actually, jesushas a kingdom approach and it
embodies little elements withinour two parties, but it's even
way bigger than that.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, I think there is so much in this topic, so
many different directions we cango.
I'm so glad you lifted that upbecause people have reflected on
those different things andJesus was sometimes asked to
make choices about hisinteraction with the Roman
government and he really tooksome nuanced approaches in the
(08:16):
way he engaged that and hedidn't just sort of go down with
Rome or he said, well, I'lljust do whatever they say, and
so I see this inherent tensionwithin Scripture.
So one of the other things thatwe had talked about ahead of
this is you had lifted up Romans13, where Paul says we are to
(08:36):
obey the government officialsand there is this sense of
saying that government isinstituted by God and it is
God's intention that we needstructure, that we need someone
to enforce codes, because sin iswithin us and if you let
everything go, it would be likethe.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Purge movies which I never watched.
That freaks me out.
I hope that never becomes athing.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, so I think there is that, but I remember at
seminary being lifted thisfascinating point being lifted
up is one of my professorslifted up the contrast between
Romans 13 and Revelation 13.
I don't know if you've everheard this, but where Paul talks
about the government being ofGod and instituted by God, in
(09:24):
Revelations 13, it's talkingabout the government being the
beast and being of evil andneeds to be confronted, needs to
be destroyed by God.
And so I think, as human beingswe live in this tension between
Romans 13 and Revelation 13that sometimes government needs
to be just honored and respected, even if you don't fully agree,
(09:47):
and then there are times whereit needs to be resisted.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
You know, and so that's something also in Yoder's
book that you're speaking intoit's an apocalyptic social
imagery instead of a humanisticsocial imagery.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
There's your big seminary word apocalyptic for
today.
What?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
that means right?
Is that, yes, the structure andinstitution set is something
created by God for order and notanarchy, absolutely.
Yet we're a broken humanity.
Right, and the apocalyptic viewis that there are
principalities and powers andevils at work within these power
structures through people.
Right, and so that's where thebattle comes.
(10:24):
And so then, when you havethese evils within institutions
that are powerful, it can makehuge damage.
Right, and so that's what it'sspeaking into.
Is this idea and understandingthat it's bigger?
Right, that it's bigger than us?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And so you know, no political party, no person is
going to be able to save we needsomething bigger and I remember
again any of the good ideasI've ever had I probably grabbed
from someone else, you know,but a couple of elections ago I
lifted up this phrase that Iheard from someone else that
sometimes we talk about elect.
It sounds like people aretalking that we're electing a
(11:03):
savior.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, we're not electing a savior and then we're
all disappointed when theydon't well, exactly that we have
a say.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I believe we have a savior in jesus christ.
We are electing a short-termpolitical leader for a certain
time in office yeah that's it,and, and so we, sometimes we
inflate it to the point where itis the end, all be all, and so
then we lose rationalperspective on it.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well, and it's our misguided hope, right, oh?
once this person is there, theneverything will straighten out,
then these things that I've beenworrying about and wondering
about or filled with fear aboutare going to all fall in place.
And then it doesn't ever happenlike that, right.
And then they get a littlefrustrated and they're like you
know, this person didn't live upto my expectations and the
(11:51):
truth is like they're nevergoing to.
And I think we so often forgetwhat is all throughout scripture
, and you know, matthew 6, 33,god's will takes precedence over
everything and everyone.
And we see in Daniel 4.34, nogovernment can thwart God's will
.
And in Daniel 2.21, god, whosets up kings, also disposes
(12:14):
them.
So, yes, and the truth that evenif evil men or women are in
political positions of power,right, and they mean it for evil
.
Even we've seen this withHitler and different things,
different people who've steppedin and really created a lot of
chaos and hurt and pain withincountries, and God will take it
(12:39):
and make good out of it.
Somehow God will work allthings out for good, whether
it's, I don't know, learningfrom that or different things,
just open our eyes to adifferent way of being.
That is our promise, that wehave to trust that God's going
to take this horrible evil orthis thing that has happened and
create good out of it, becausehe even did that with the cross
(13:01):
and with this Roman empiricalcrucifixion punishment, he
brought life out of it.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
This is a topic that can just grow bigger and bigger.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I want to pull it back in a little bit, shrink it
in.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And one of the things that I wanted to lift up in
this is also this reality for meas Christians that political
decisions a lot of people makecan be very self-centered that I
will vote for this individualparty because of how it will
help me.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm an American.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Okay, but here's the— .
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It's all about me.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But to me this is where our Christian perspective
should come in.
I shouldn't just be voting onwhat works best for Kendall,
that at some level, as aChristian, I think we should be
looking beyond our own personalinterests and ask.
Given my view of this country,Mo, let me finish here.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Do you know what my tax write-offs are going to cost
you?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Before that, I should be looking and going between
these two parties, between thesetwo individuals.
What is best needed for thismoment?
Are we needing more of apersonal responsibility
perspective, a communalresponsibility, that I may vote
one way or the other based on myreading of that, but you may
read it differently and so.
But it shouldn't just be aboutwhat is the best for Kendall,
(14:22):
what do I think is best for thecountry?
Now and here again, Christianscan disagree on that, but that's
what we have to do.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
I think that's pretty wise to really step back and
look at it like, okay, what dowe need as a country right now?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
And I just think we have to go beyond just the.
I mean, we live so much of ourlives out of self-interest but I
just believe following Jesuscalls me beyond that, to not
just what works best for me, butwhat do I think is best for the
writer, and then we usescripture and theology to
justify our self-interest.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Whatever we, you betcha.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yes, here's the other place.
I wanted to dial this in alittle bit is this whole thing
of you know, and we're droppingthis in the middle of an
election season purposefully.
You're welcome.
Yes, yeah, that to me, one ofthe questions is when should you
have political conversationsand right before elections.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I can't wait to get all those comments by the
bots.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Very interesting things to say.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, we're wondering if this is going to have a
warning on it from YouTube.
But for me, in engaging this inconversation, I think we need
to ask when, where and how.
That?
When should I have thisconversation?
You know, sometimes people havethese political conversations
as just hit and run.
I can't believe you're going tovote like that and they yell
(15:45):
something at someone and thenthey leave, oh and you know, and
that's just sort of hit and run.
It's not a conversation.
No you know, do it when you havetime, do it when you can engage
.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
If you're going to get a family function.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh, at a family function please.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Around the.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Thanksgiving dinner.
That's when you want to do it.
No, I mean, ecclesiastes saysfor everything there is a time
and for everything under the suna season.
For everything we have to bewise when we have these
conversations.
I also think, where we havethese conversations, you know,
having it in a public placewhere you're going to end up
(16:20):
drawing a lot of other people inthat can't engage.
You know, where you have apolitical conversation matters.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Or not having it at Thanksgiving, because you know
you want to be thankful for oneanother during that time.
At that time you bet.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
You know, I think putting up a yard sign is an
appropriate place to say this iswhere this household stands.
But I'm struck why I don't seemore households where there's
two different yard signs,because there are two different
viewpoints in that household.
But I also think people canmake political statements or
offer political perspective onFacebook.
(16:58):
But the question becomes is howwe do that.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So how would that be done?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
well, Well, and this is where I think we need to do
things, when we are making astatement of a viewpoint, a
political viewpoint, and if I'ma Christian and I'm making a
political statement, I think Ineed to A do it humbly,
recognizing the fact that maybeI don't understand all the
(17:23):
dynamics.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
So should you begin by saying I do not understand
all the dynamics of this, but….
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, from my viewpoint, this is what I see.
I think that humbleness,creating some sort of humbleness
that is acknowledging aChristian perspective, to know
that I'm seeing it from myviewpoint and I am a human being
Sin's in me.
It's not just out there, it'sin me.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So I am HO In my humble opinion.
This is what I see.
So I think some level ofhumbleness in our political
statements is important.
I agree, I'm trying to thinkWell again.
I think humility, speaking thetruth in love.
I just keep coming back toEphesians 4.15.
(18:06):
Am I doing this statement outof arrogance or am I doing it
out of love?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Because I want people to agree with me and they're
not entitled to have a differentopinion.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Let me just say if any of you think you're going to
change anyone's opinion becauseof what you post on Facebook,
you're wrong.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
You won't.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You're not going to do that, that doesn't mean you
shouldn't post something.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
But don't let it enrage you when they disagree
and then repost things.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
You're not going to change people.
So I mean, it's okay to stateyour political viewpoint, but
state it humbly, speak it inlove and don't think you're
going to change anyone.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And I think it's important to, to do that
self-reflection too.
Like why is it important for meto share this right now on
social media or at this familyfunction or with my you know
loved one?
Like what?
What is my purpose?
What is my intention?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean, it really goes to what's
driving this.
Why am I feeling compelled todo this?
Because maybe it's not theright time, maybe it's not the
right place, maybe it's notgoing to be helpful To ask
ourselves those questions beforewe engage.
That, I think, is just soimportant, absolutely.
And here's another crazy ideawhat if we actually put things
(19:18):
out as a question rather than asa judgment?
I mean, we've been talkingabout this and really drawn to
this idea of curiosity versusjudgment.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And I've been hearing this in multiple places that if
we come at things withcuriosity, like, hey, I think
you have this, you're in favorof this person, why?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
is that.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And not like why in the hell are you believe in that
?
But saying why, why?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Help me understand.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Help me understand, because I don't understand that
and I'm curious If we reallycame with a sense of curiosity.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, I think that could could help, could possibly
.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And it acknowledges that maybe I don't see
everything or that I just seethings from my perspective.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Or I think we need to be careful to where we give it,
getting our information fromRight.
So like everything has anagenda, a publishing company has
an agenda Right.
So like everything has anagenda, a publishing company has
an agenda, a media company hasan agenda, and so is it coming
from a certain perspectivealready.
Then things will be skewed inalignment with that perspective,
and I think we have to look atthings like that realistically
(20:26):
as well.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Proverbs 18, 13,.
Spouting off before listeningto the facts is both shameful
and foolish.
Yes, and tragically, there's alot of that that happens.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
And where did you get your facts from?
Just be careful.
Yeah, and to double check thatOnline from this site.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
You know, mo, there's a group that's been doing some
work in this area and it's agroup called the After Party,
but I'm sorry to say it's notliterally an after party.
I'm all about the after party.
I know you are, but this groupis really about saying that for
Christians, our discussionsabout politics maybe should be
(21:05):
less about what than how.
That how are we having theconversations is more reflective
of if we're following Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Absolutely.
See, that's what I keep goingback to.
It's like, whatever youropinions, whatever your views,
wherever you have your factsfrom, we need to take that and
work it back into the kingdom ofGod politic and go how does it
fit in here and how doesn't it?
And that becomes the bigconversation that I think needs
to be had among fellow brothersand sisters, right?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And, literally, how do we have the conversation?
Are we having it with anger?
Are we having it with arrogance?
Are we having it with humilityand listening and openness?
That some of the how is maybemore important than the what.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely.
I would love to hear from youguys listening and watching us
now what has worked for you.
How have you engaged in thistopic of politics with those you
love and care about in a waythat was life-giving?
Help us to unpack this truth ofhow to do this and do it well.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's what we're trying to do is look to
scripture and look to each otherto see how God wants to guide
us.
We encourage you to like, share, subscribe to this podcast.
If you think this is helpful,share it with someone else.
Maybe that's another way to geta conversation going.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Or submit a different topic If you're like.
Please don't talk aboutpolitics ever again.
Submit a different topic and wewill talk about the topic that
you bring up.
How cool is that.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, so thanks for tuning in and we'll look forward
to seeing you next time onUnpacking Truths.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
That's where I had to really take a step back and
realize holy, it wasn't just theHoly Spirit inspiring Paul to
write to the Christians inGalatia, it was also these early
Christian leaders continuing topray, continuing to study, to
keep coming back and to say thisis the true message of Jesus
and this stuff, no, this is, youknow, chaff.
(23:09):
This is not the essential, andso I believe it was the Holy
Spirit.
Chaff.
This is not the essential, andso I believe it was the Holy
Spirit not just inspiring thewriters, but inspiring those
leaders to discern.
This is what you really need.
This is the essentials.
You can let the other stuff go,maybe it'll help you, maybe not
, but don't put your, don't riskyour life on stuff that isn't
the core.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Thank you for tuning in.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where Pastor Kendall and I are
going to do our best, by thegrace of God, with the Holy
Spirit, to unpack the truth of atopic that we all love politics
and religion.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Oh Mo, Was this your brilliant idea.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, you know what I'm a glutton for punishment.
What can I say?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Well, I think it is an important topic.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I mean in.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
And a topic that often, as Christians in the
church, we avoid.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well or do really poorly at oh yeah, oh yeah.
Yeah, so we're going to try anddo a little better than poorly
here today Just a smidge, butwe'll see.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
You'll be the judges of that Low expectations, so
that we, you know, hopefully hitour goal.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'm Pastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think there is a sense where you know people have
often said you know in politecompany you shouldn't talk about
religion and politics, and Ithink they say that.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Or on a first date.
Or on a first date, yeah,unless you don't like them, use
that.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, that may be a strategy.
Say that because they knowthere is so much passion
involved in both of those topicsthat often people start
engaging out of their passionand don't reflect on how it's
coming off to others.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Right, or the fact that their face is getting
really red and veins are poppingout of the side of their head
and they're spitting on you onaccident because it's protruding
from.
I'm sorry, I was reliving afamily moment.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So you know, Mo, I wanted I mean there's so many
places I mean this is a topicyou can do multiple, multiple
episodes on, but we're notplanning on that.
We're shooting it in one, orgetting ourselves shot in one,
one or the other, but I thinkthe one of the places that I
want to start is just engaging,something that has frustrated me
(02:11):
.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Is within the church world and I have foot in
different camps within thechurch world.
I have some folks to one sideof the spectrum, one to the
other, and they point and theysay this is the Christian
perspective to have.
If you're really a Christfollower, here's how you should
see things.
Or people on the other sidesaid if you're really a Christ
(02:34):
follower, here's how you shouldsee things.
And where I wanted to start isjust doing this a little bit
deeper.
Look at that question, becausefor me, when I look at the
two-party system here in theUnited States, with Democratic
and Republican parties, what Isee is that a core value that
each one sort of springs out ofa different sort of core value.
(02:57):
That the Republican Party, inmy perception of it, springs out
of more of this core value ofpersonal responsibility.
My perception of it springs outof more of this core value of
personal responsibility,individual responsibility that I
need to take responsibility formy action, and that the
Democratic Party more comes outof a communal responsibility
(03:17):
that we need to be responsiblefor this wider community.
And for me, both of thoseanimating core values are
scriptural.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
In that you know, joshua in the Old Testament says
choose this day who you willserve, but as for me and my
house, we will serve the Lord,he said.
I'm personally responsible forthat choice.
Right In 2 Thessalonians 3,paul says even while we were
with you, we gave you thiscommand those unwilling to work
will not get to eat.
Sort of personal responsibility.
(03:49):
That is core in scripture.
But so is communalresponsibility from the sort of
the democratic perspective.
The Old Testament prophetsagain and again calling people
to say it's not just about you,you have responsibility for the
widow, the orphan and friendscheck it out the foreigner in
your midst.
That you have responsibilityfor that wider community.
(04:10):
So for me to say that one isthe only biblical or Christian
response is inaccurate, becauseboth animating core pieces are
scriptural and that we have tolive as Christians and as
citizens of this country in thetension of both of those.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Absolutely, and I kind of want to touch on this.
So when I was doing my researchfor this, I went back into a
book by John Yoder, the Politicsof Jesus, and it kind of speaks
into this third option, and Ijust want to preface this by
saying that John Yoder has donesome unethical things that I
absolutely do not agree with.
(04:49):
However, I do think it'simportant for us to take certain
things and take the good out ofwhat some people have done and
not throw the baby out with thebathwater.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Per se, right, like Martin, Luther, you might have
written some good things, butdone some bad things.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yes, martin Luther, whom our Lutheranism comes out
of right.
He was accused of anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Not accused of he did .
He was yes.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And Jonathan Edward owned slaves.
So there are these things thatare considered evil and wrong
and not in alignment with God'skingdom, and yet these are also
people that really produce somethings that I think help us
understand God more and how tolive in the world, and so I just
want to preface that.
But so John Yoder he speaksinto the politics of Jesus, and
(05:36):
one of the things he says isJesus had a politic, that was a
kinship society and so-.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Are you saying K I N G?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Kin like a family.
Oh K I N Kin Ship, okay, yeah,and so, so like, as there's
Democrat, there's Republican,and yet we aren't to find our
identity in those politicalparties, right, and so the
values they have and hold, theyare not something we live out of
, every single piece of it,right?
So even Republicans are like Iagree with all these things, but
(06:08):
not this within the RepublicanParty, or this idea or that idea
, or vice versa.
However, in Jesus' politic,right, this kinship, our
identity, does come out of this.
Our identity does come out ofthis politic.
Who we are, how we treat oneanother, is to come out of these
beliefs, and so it's all aboutthe kingdom of God.
(06:31):
And the kingdom of God thatJesus speaks into is all about
this idea of the jubilee year,and the jubilee year was
something that happened every, Ithink it was.
What is it?
Every 50 years, right?
And so that is when you forgiveall debts, you know, you, you
are to leave your land so thatthe poor can, you know, glean
(06:53):
from it, and you are to, uh,release and set the slaves free
that you have, like all thesereally gracious giving, feed the
poor, care for others Uh, how'sthose, those?
If you have extra, you know?
And so it's just living out ofthis way, regardless of the cost
.
And so if it does come upagainst and butt up against the
(07:17):
powers that be, thenindividually you do have a
problem and you, you know, youbecome, you know, an issue with
the powers that be, thegovernment, the, the established
authority, right, and that'sokay, and you could lose your
life.
And so I thought that wasreally interesting.
As you say, you know, here'sthis individualistic approach,
(07:38):
here's this communal approach.
And then also, when I hearJesus would do this, jesus would
do that, well, actually, jesushas a kingdom approach and it
embodies little elements withinour two parties, but it's even
way bigger than that.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, I think there is so much in this topic, so
many different directions we cango.
I'm so glad you lifted that upbecause people have reflected on
those different things andJesus was sometimes asked to
make choices about hisinteraction with the Roman
government and he really tooksome nuanced approaches in the
(08:16):
way he engaged that and hedidn't just sort of go down with
Rome or he said, well, I'lljust do whatever they say, and
so I see this inherent tensionwithin Scripture.
So one of the other things thatwe had talked about ahead of
this is you had lifted up Romans13, where Paul says we are to
(08:36):
obey the government officialsand there is this sense of
saying that government isinstituted by God and it is
God's intention that we needstructure, that we need someone
to enforce codes, because sin iswithin us and if you let
everything go, it would be likethe.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Purge movies which I never watched.
That freaks me out.
I hope that never becomes athing.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, so I think there is that, but I remember at
seminary being lifted thisfascinating point being lifted
up is one of my professorslifted up the contrast between
Romans 13 and Revelation 13.
I don't know if you've everheard this, but where Paul talks
about the government being ofGod and instituted by God, in
(09:24):
Revelations 13, it's talkingabout the government being the
beast and being of evil andneeds to be confronted, needs to
be destroyed by God.
And so I think, as human beingswe live in this tension between
Romans 13 and Revelation 13that sometimes government needs
to be just honored and respected, even if you don't fully agree,
(09:47):
and then there are times whereit needs to be resisted.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
You know, and so that's something also in Yoder's
book that you're speaking intoit's an apocalyptic social
imagery instead of a humanisticsocial imagery.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
There's your big seminary word apocalyptic for
today.
What?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
that means right?
Is that, yes, the structure andinstitution set is something
created by God for order and notanarchy, absolutely.
Yet we're a broken humanity.
Right, and the apocalyptic viewis that there are
principalities and powers andevils at work within these power
structures through people.
Right, and so that's where thebattle comes.
(10:24):
And so then, when you havethese evils within institutions
that are powerful, it can makehuge damage.
Right, and so that's what it'sspeaking into.
Is this idea and understandingthat it's bigger?
Right, that it's bigger than us?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And so you know, no political party, no person is
going to be able to save we needsomething bigger and I remember
again any of the good ideasI've ever had I probably grabbed
from someone else, you know,but a couple of elections ago I
lifted up this phrase that Iheard from someone else that
sometimes we talk about elect.
It sounds like people aretalking that we're electing a
(11:03):
savior.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, we're not electing a savior and then we're
all disappointed when theydon't well, exactly that we have
a say.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I believe we have a savior in jesus christ.
We are electing a short-termpolitical leader for a certain
time in office yeah that's it,and, and so we, sometimes we
inflate it to the point where itis the end, all be all, and so
then we lose rationalperspective on it.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Well, and it's our misguided hope, right, oh?
once this person is there, theneverything will straighten out,
then these things that I've beenworrying about and wondering
about or filled with fear aboutare going to all fall in place.
And then it doesn't ever happenlike that, right.
And then they get a littlefrustrated and they're like you
know, this person didn't live upto my expectations and the
(11:51):
truth is like they're nevergoing to.
And I think we so often forgetwhat is all throughout scripture
, and you know, matthew 6, 33,god's will takes precedence over
everything and everyone.
And we see in Daniel 4.34, nogovernment can thwart God's will
.
And in Daniel 2.21, god, whosets up kings, also disposes
(12:14):
them.
So, yes, and the truth that evenif evil men or women are in
political positions of power,right, and they mean it for evil
.
Even we've seen this withHitler and different things,
different people who've steppedin and really created a lot of
chaos and hurt and pain withincountries, and God will take it
(12:39):
and make good out of it.
Somehow God will work allthings out for good, whether
it's, I don't know, learningfrom that or different things,
just open our eyes to adifferent way of being.
That is our promise, that wehave to trust that God's going
to take this horrible evil orthis thing that has happened and
create good out of it, becausehe even did that with the cross
(13:01):
and with this Roman empiricalcrucifixion punishment, he
brought life out of it.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
This is a topic that can just grow bigger and bigger.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I want to pull it back in a little bit, shrink it
in.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And one of the things that I wanted to lift up in
this is also this reality for meas Christians that political
decisions a lot of people makecan be very self-centered that I
will vote for this individualparty because of how it will
help me.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm an American.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Okay, but here's the— .
Speaker 1 (13:37):
It's all about me.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But to me this is where our Christian perspective
should come in.
I shouldn't just be voting onwhat works best for Kendall,
that at some level, as aChristian, I think we should be
looking beyond our own personalinterests and ask.
Given my view of this country,Mo, let me finish here.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Do you know what my tax write-offs are going to cost
you?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Before that, I should be looking and going between
these two parties, between thesetwo individuals.
What is best needed for thismoment?
Are we needing more of apersonal responsibility
perspective, a communalresponsibility, that I may vote
one way or the other based on myreading of that, but you may
read it differently and so.
But it shouldn't just be aboutwhat is the best for Kendall,
(14:22):
what do I think is best for thecountry?
Now and here again, Christianscan disagree on that, but that's
what we have to do.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
I think that's pretty wise to really step back and
look at it like, okay, what dowe need as a country right now?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
And I just think we have to go beyond just the.
I mean, we live so much of ourlives out of self-interest but I
just believe following Jesuscalls me beyond that, to not
just what works best for me, butwhat do I think is best for the
writer, and then we usescripture and theology to
justify our self-interest.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Whatever we, you betcha.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yes, here's the other place.
I wanted to dial this in alittle bit is this whole thing
of you know, and we're droppingthis in the middle of an
election season purposefully.
You're welcome.
Yes, yeah, that to me, one ofthe questions is when should you
have political conversationsand right before elections.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I can't wait to get all those comments by the
bots.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Very interesting things to say.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, we're wondering if this is going to have a
warning on it from YouTube.
But for me, in engaging this inconversation, I think we need
to ask when, where and how.
That?
When should I have thisconversation?
You know, sometimes people havethese political conversations
as just hit and run.
I can't believe you're going tovote like that and they yell
(15:45):
something at someone and thenthey leave, oh and you know, and
that's just sort of hit and run.
It's not a conversation.
No you know, do it when you havetime, do it when you can engage
.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
If you're going to get a family function.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh, at a family function please.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Around the.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Thanksgiving dinner.
That's when you want to do it.
No, I mean, ecclesiastes saysfor everything there is a time
and for everything under the suna season.
For everything we have to bewise when we have these
conversations.
I also think, where we havethese conversations, you know,
having it in a public placewhere you're going to end up
(16:20):
drawing a lot of other people inthat can't engage.
You know, where you have apolitical conversation matters.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Or not having it at Thanksgiving, because you know
you want to be thankful for oneanother during that time.
At that time you bet.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
You know, I think putting up a yard sign is an
appropriate place to say this iswhere this household stands.
But I'm struck why I don't seemore households where there's
two different yard signs,because there are two different
viewpoints in that household.
But I also think people canmake political statements or
offer political perspective onFacebook.
(16:58):
But the question becomes is howwe do that.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So how would that be done?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
well, Well, and this is where I think we need to do
things, when we are making astatement of a viewpoint, a
political viewpoint, and if I'ma Christian and I'm making a
political statement, I think Ineed to A do it humbly,
recognizing the fact that maybeI don't understand all the
(17:23):
dynamics.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
So should you begin by saying I do not understand
all the dynamics of this, but….
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, from my viewpoint, this is what I see.
I think that humbleness,creating some sort of humbleness
that is acknowledging aChristian perspective, to know
that I'm seeing it from myviewpoint and I am a human being
Sin's in me.
It's not just out there, it'sin me.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So I am HO In my humble opinion.
This is what I see.
So I think some level ofhumbleness in our political
statements is important.
I agree, I'm trying to thinkWell again.
I think humility, speaking thetruth in love.
I just keep coming back toEphesians 4.15.
(18:06):
Am I doing this statement outof arrogance or am I doing it
out of love?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Because I want people to agree with me and they're
not entitled to have a differentopinion.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Let me just say if any of you think you're going to
change anyone's opinion becauseof what you post on Facebook,
you're wrong.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
You won't.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You're not going to do that, that doesn't mean you
shouldn't post something.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
But don't let it enrage you when they disagree
and then repost things.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
You're not going to change people.
So I mean, it's okay to stateyour political viewpoint, but
state it humbly, speak it inlove and don't think you're
going to change anyone.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And I think it's important to, to do that
self-reflection too.
Like why is it important for meto share this right now on
social media or at this familyfunction or with my you know
loved one?
Like what?
What is my purpose?
What is my intention?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean, it really goes to what's
driving this.
Why am I feeling compelled todo this?
Because maybe it's not theright time, maybe it's not the
right place, maybe it's notgoing to be helpful To ask
ourselves those questions beforewe engage.
That, I think, is just soimportant, absolutely.
And here's another crazy ideawhat if we actually put things
(19:18):
out as a question rather than asa judgment?
I mean, we've been talkingabout this and really drawn to
this idea of curiosity versusjudgment.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And I've been hearing this in multiple places that if
we come at things withcuriosity, like, hey, I think
you have this, you're in favorof this person, why?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
is that.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And not like why in the hell are you believe in that
?
But saying why, why?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Help me understand.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Help me understand, because I don't understand that
and I'm curious If we reallycame with a sense of curiosity.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, I think that could could help, could possibly
.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And it acknowledges that maybe I don't see
everything or that I just seethings from my perspective.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Or I think we need to be careful to where we give it,
getting our information fromRight.
So like everything has anagenda, a publishing company has
an agenda Right.
So like everything has anagenda, a publishing company has
an agenda, a media company hasan agenda, and so is it coming
from a certain perspectivealready.
Then things will be skewed inalignment with that perspective,
and I think we have to look atthings like that realistically
(20:26):
as well.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Proverbs 18, 13,.
Spouting off before listeningto the facts is both shameful
and foolish.
Yes, and tragically, there's alot of that that happens.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
And where did you get your facts from?
Just be careful.
Yeah, and to double check thatOnline from this site.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
You know, mo, there's a group that's been doing some
work in this area and it's agroup called the After Party,
but I'm sorry to say it's notliterally an after party.
I'm all about the after party.
I know you are, but this groupis really about saying that for
Christians, our discussionsabout politics maybe should be
(21:05):
less about what than how.
That how are we having theconversations is more reflective
of if we're following Jesus.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Absolutely.
See, that's what I keep goingback to.
It's like, whatever youropinions, whatever your views,
wherever you have your factsfrom, we need to take that and
work it back into the kingdom ofGod politic and go how does it
fit in here and how doesn't it?
And that becomes the bigconversation that I think needs
to be had among fellow brothersand sisters, right?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And, literally, how do we have the conversation?
Are we having it with anger?
Are we having it with arrogance?
Are we having it with humilityand listening and openness?
That some of the how is maybemore important than the what.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely.
I would love to hear from youguys listening and watching us
now what has worked for you.
How have you engaged in thistopic of politics with those you
love and care about in a waythat was life-giving?
Help us to unpack this truth ofhow to do this and do it well.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's what we're trying to do is look to
scripture and look to each otherto see how God wants to guide
us.
We encourage you to like, share, subscribe to this podcast.
If you think this is helpful,share it with someone else.
Maybe that's another way to geta conversation going.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Or submit a different topic If you're like.
Please don't talk aboutpolitics ever again.
Submit a different topic and wewill talk about the topic that
you bring up.
How cool is that.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, so thanks for tuning in and we'll look forward
to seeing you next time onUnpacking Truths.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
That's where I had to really take a step back and
realize holy, it wasn't just theHoly Spirit inspiring Paul to
write to the Christians inGalatia, it was also these early
Christian leaders continuing topray, continuing to study, to
keep coming back and to say thisis the true message of Jesus
and this stuff, no, this is, youknow, chaff.
(23:09):
This is not the essential, andso I believe it was the Holy
Spirit.
Chaff.
This is not the essential, andso I believe it was the Holy
Spirit not just inspiring thewriters, but inspiring those
leaders to discern.
This is what you really need.
This is the essentials.
You can let the other stuff go,maybe it'll help you, maybe not
, but don't put your, don't riskyour life on stuff that isn't
the core.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!