July 16, 2024 • 23 mins
When the world seems to fracture with every disagreement, Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo invite listeners to a conversation that draws on the deep well of Christ's love. Have you ever found your heart heavy, struggling to bridge the gap when faith and family don't see eye to eye? They've been there, and this episode is their heartfelt response, brimming with stories like Pastor Mo's own clash with his sister over theology, and filled with strategies to foster understanding and preserve the bonds that matter most.
Together, Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo navigate the intricate dance of holding firm to their beliefs while extending an olive branch of empathy and kindness. They reflect on Jesus' radical teachings, emphasizing the grace of assuming the best in others and engaging with a gentle spirit. Join them as they contemplate environmental stewardship through the lens of scriptural humility and truth, offering practical steps to care for the creation entrusted to us. This episode isn't just about finding common ground; it's about nurturing the soil from which mutual respect and love can grow.
#FaithAndFamily #ChristLove #BridgeTheGap #FaithDisagreements #FamilyHarmony #JesusTeachings #EmpathyAndKindness #EnvironmentalStewardship #MutualRespect #LoveAndUnderstanding
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What mug did you grab Mo?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
My favorite mug.
It is the mug of love.
It has you and your wifey on it.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Perfect, perfect.
Thank you for sharing that.
It is perfect.
You know, mo, the topic fortoday how to have conversations
with people you disagree with.
I have so much practice in thisbecause I deal with it day to
day dealing with you, oh, isn'tthat nice.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
It's actually how to love people that you don't agree
with.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Oh, that's the topic.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Okay, well, I was close.
We wrestle back and forth alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And I'm Pastor Mo and we are Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.
Today, everyone is seeking, andwe are here to help you find
hope and power in God's Word.
Mo, why don't you share?
You had told me you have astory of a time when and I think
this is such an apropos topicbecause there are so many folks
(00:57):
in our nation, in churches, incommunities, in families, where
there's so much division anddifferent viewpoints.
And how do you haveconversations, how do you love
people, how do you deal withthat, those differences?
So you have a story to start uswith.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, just like.
How do you look like Christwhen you are dealing with people
who have completely differentviewpoints, maybe different
values than you?
For me personally, when I haddiscerned and it took many years
of discernment to walk downthis path of being a pastor
right, my sister thinks verytheologically different and many
(01:35):
of my family members they'reIrish Catholic.
They come out of a contextwhere women can't be pastors.
My sister, very evangelical,and her background with her
husband, genuinely believe inlove, even though she said, hey,
(02:13):
satan's using you.
And I was like whoa and ofcourse my first approach was I
wrote this long.
I had to get off the phone withher or I was going to not look
like Jesus with my words.
And then I wrote this hugeemail, right, and it had all
these points and historicalreferences.
And then I just said at the endof it and I was like for what?
This isn't what love looks like, shouting here's all the areas
(02:34):
how you're wrong.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Had you written it all in caps too?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh yeah, absolutely All bold.
It was bold and caps and red,but wait, she's blind, so I
don't know any of that wouldhave mattered, because it just
speaks to her.
So unless it shouted at her,then I would have been happy,
but I knew it wasn't going to.
So yeah, I mean.
So that was a really hard spaceand we've had to just not talk
about it, right, like what doesit look like to say, hey, we're
(02:58):
not going to see eye to eye inthis, and there's a lot that.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I've learned also dealing with family members and
stuff throughout this process ofloving those with very
different viewpoints.
So how about yourself?
You know, when we came on thistopic, I thought in some ways,
as a pastor for 34 years, thisis what I've been called to do.
I mean, you pastor in a churchwhere you don't agree with every
person's perspective, but partof my role as a pastor is to
love them.
So in some ways it's been agreat training ground to learn
how to do that.
(03:32):
But let's get practical here,and I know you have some ideas,
some strategies and I'll jump inand add some other thoughts.
So why don't?
we start in so where do youthink you start on this?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Definitely.
So some really practical waysand things that I've learned is
the first thing that I do is Ireframe my lens right, like I
reframe the way I see them andmyself.
So who are they?
I have to remind myself.
This is a child of God, I amtold.
They are wonderfully made rightand so right there.
(04:08):
That levels the ground and Ihave to see them quite
differently.
I also have to remind myself ofwho I am.
I am somebody who has to die tomyself daily.
We see that in Luke 9.
I'm somebody that has to live alife filled with love, as we
see in Ephesians 2.
And it's one of our greatestcommandments as well Do to
(04:29):
others as you would have them,do to you Like.
All these things have to comeinto my being before I have
these conversations.
I literally have to remindmyself of who they are and who
I'm called to be before I evenstart talking, cause it helps.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, it is, and I think that's so important and I
love that.
That's where you start, becauseI think it is we, we you people
often think of these as well.
I'm going to go into battle forthis, but no to to.
To look at it, this is a childof God, I'm a child of God and
we're going to have aconversation.
So how do I love this person,even though they're in a
(05:06):
different place?
And I think where you pointedus to, I mean great scriptures,
the last one where Jesus simplysaid love your neighbors
yourself.
If you're going to have tointeract with someone who sees
things very differently, how doyou want them to treat you?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, how do you look like loving that Treat?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
them that way.
I mean, sometimes we think ofJesus' teachings as this like
pie in the sky.
It's very practical.
Yeah, Literally.
How would you want someone totreat you if they disagree with
you?
Would you want them yelling atyou?
No, probably not.
Do you want them calling younames?
Probably not.
Do you want them forcing stuffdown?
(05:43):
You're like, well see,obviously that's not what you
want.
That wouldn't feel loving toyou, so don't do that to others.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Is what Jesus is saying Well, and he lives that
out so beautifully.
And I always ask myself, howdoes he do this?
Because here are these peoplethat are trying to belittle him
and shame him and make him looklike an idiot or accuse him of
being a drunkard or a falseprophet all these things.
And he just sits.
He just calmly and filled withpeace and confidence in who he
(06:16):
is, is always approaching themin love and wisdom.
He calmly just asks themquestions most of the time, and
I seek to be like that, but itdoesn't always work.
But we try.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But part of that is Jesus remembered who he was.
Absolutely and that's what youwere saying.
It's remembering who thatperson is, but also remembering
who you are.
You are a beloved child of God,Even if this person doesn't see
it that way.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Remembering that about yourself Because we can so
quickly our thoughts, our ideas.
We can confuse them with beingwho we are, oh yeah, and then it
becomes their opposing, isattacking our identity and who
we are as a person.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Rather than a debate around ideas, it's about your
actual personhood.
Yes, now, with the topic youhad used earlier, I could see
how that would go to yourpersonhood, I mean, but there
are a lot of issues that don'tgo in that way.
Some do, though.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Right, but it's not an attack of my personhood.
I have to know who I am inChrist and where my worth comes
from, not from what others think, and so that it's a good place
to start.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I think it's a good place to start.
I think it's a great place tostart.
What's the next thing?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah.
So another one I have isactively listening.
That is so, so huge.
Wisdom listens and fools talk.
I mean that's all throughoutscripture.
We see in Proverbs 18, a fooltakes no pleasure in
understanding, but only inexpressing their opinion.
And we have if one gives ananswer before they hear.
(07:45):
It is a shame.
That's in Proverbs 18.
There's just so much beingquick to listen, slow to speak
in James and let the wise hear.
So much about stoppingourselves and just listening and
really being present to hearwhat they have to say, because
so often we think about what wewant to say before the other
person is even finished and wedon't even understand what
(08:06):
they're saying most of the time.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Absolutely, and that's that.
And so, friends, go to BibleGateway or whatever, plug in,
listen and look in the Proverbs,for all of those scriptures
that Mo pointed to.
I had them on my sheet too,because those are great ones and
those are great reminders.
It is, and part of where thatwhole perspective, though, in
(08:34):
listening, is.
It's taking on what St Francisof Assisi said in his powerful
and wonderful prayer.
He said oh divine master, grantme not so much that I would
seek to be understood as tounderstand.
We're always wanting to foistour ideas out on others, when
the first place we should go isto listen.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Absolutely, and it's funny that you said that,
because that's the very nextthing that I make sure that I
try to implement is seeking tounderstand rather than to be
understood, and this is oftendone by questions.
So it's all about questions,and I look at Jesus' life and
that's what he does most of thetime as a child.
(09:12):
We're told that Jesus asksquestions in the temple.
He's sitting among the teacherslistening to them and asking
questions.
That's in Luke 2.
Jesus asks questions of hisdisciples.
He asks questions to thePharisees.
Even the disciples askquestions to Jesus for
clarification.
Understanding where someone iscoming from will reframe so many
(09:36):
times what you are thinkingabout, their idea or their
thought because you're justperceiving it maybe differently
than what they're actuallytrying to get across.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, and I think there's two levels of
questioning.
One is do I really understandwhat they're saying?
Yeah, and our tendency is oh, Iknow what they're saying, but
we got to pull it back inourselves.
Do I really understand?
But then I think it's thatfollow-up question why did you
get to this position?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Or how, yeah, or how did you get to?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
this position?
Or how, yeah, or how did youget to this place of thing?
Or am I jumping ahead on your,your list?
oh, no, no, you know um, becauseI think that you know, in the
one of the class that we've beentaking, they're talking uh,
they lifted up this idea of,rather than being judgmental, be
curious.
Yes, that's so often we'refoisting our judgment on other
people's ideas rather than beingcurious, like, well, tell me
(10:28):
how you got there, but how didyou get to that perspective?
Because and I was I justwatched a YouTube video where
some master trainer was talkingabout having difficult
conversations and he lifted upthat same idea he didn't name,
he got it from scripture.
But that asking why that?
What happens is is, if you canbegin to trace back how someone
(10:49):
got there, you can begin toconnect with them at a human
level.
And you're not just reactingidea clash to idea clash, you're
understanding where they camefrom.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, or you may come to realize that you weren't
understanding what they weresaying at all Exactly, or
they're like no, no, no, that'snot what I meant.
Let me explain this differently, and so you're giving the
opportunity for them to explainit on a deeper level, maybe,
where it came out of all thosethings which will help reframe
the whole conversation.
So it's so powerful to askquestions.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
It just is and you know, as I was reflecting on
this, they're sort of, if you'reinteracting with someone who
you think or you assume hasdifferent viewpoints than you,
you have sort of three choicesyou can either try to make sure
they understand your truth andyour perspective, or you can
(11:42):
really seek to understand theirperspective, or you can focus on
just maintaining therelationship.
But you can't do all of those.
I mean, especially if you arejust focused on I've got to make
sure, Mo, you understand mytruth.
I'm probably putting therelationship to the side, and
(12:03):
there are times when I think weneed to just get to the point of
going like, okay, we're goingto agree, to disagree.
I'm going to focus on therelationship, even if we're
never going to come to agreement.
And the truth is you're nevergoing to agree with anyone,
everyone.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, everyone, hopefully anyone.
Hopefully we'll agree with acouple of people Once in a while
.
I probably agree with a few ofyou out there.
He doesn't ever agree with me,so that's true, that's another
story, so another one is solet's say, you don't agree with
the person, right?
You guys, you've asked yourquestions, you've actively
listened, you've really heardthem, but you don't agree.
We are to avoid judging.
(12:37):
I remind myself to avoidjudging and one of the verses
that really gets me that Jesussays is do not judge, or you too
will be judged the same way youare judging others.
That one convicts me so muchfrom Matthew 7, because I'm like
no, I don't want to be judgedthe way I'm judging others.
So it's powerful and it remindsme to check myself in that,
(13:01):
because I don't want to bejudged in the same manner.
Right, Like I want people toassume the best of me.
I want people, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That, assuming the best.
That's one of the things that Iloved when Martin Luther did
his small catechism and he didhis reflections on the
commandments.
And the eighth commandment, atleast in the way Luther ordered
them, was do not bear falsewitness against your neighbor,
and I remember learning this asa 14-year-old in confirmation
(13:30):
class.
But we should fear and love God, so we're not curse, swear, lie
or deceive or in these otherparts, but the last phrase and
put the best construction.
Hmm, hmm on your neighbor'sactions, that you describe it in
the best possible way, to otherpeople, but also to yourself,
so that you're not just looking,listening to what other people
(13:51):
say and going like, well, yeah,of course they came out in that
because.
But you're going like, well,what is the kindest way that I
could understand, they could seethis?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
And we don't even have to assume, if we go back to
the asking questions, right,and you can say like, hey, what
I'm hearing you say is this, orcan I mind thinking they meant
by what they said?
And that's so powerful?
(14:27):
Because then that allows forthat space of clearing things up
or just diving deeper into itor understanding one another.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And yeah, yeah, but even when they're saying it, you
can still be looking likepouncing on the negative things
that they say, or you can saywell, they probably meant to say
it this way.
I mean, are you framing it?
How are you filtering theirwords?
Are you looking for thenegative or are you looking for
the commonality?
And where can we findcommonality?
(14:56):
Not that we're going to agreewith everyone.
I don't agree with everyone.
But you know, as Jesus said inwhere is this?
Matthew 5, where he says if youlove only those who love you,
what reward is there for that?
Even corrupt tax collectors dothat much.
If you are kind only to yourfriends, how are you different
(15:19):
from anyone else?
Jesus calls us to a love and akindness to everyone, especially
the people we disagree with.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, and that speaks in the next thing that I try to
make sure to always do, Callsus to a love and a kindness to
everyone Right, especially thepeople we disagree with yeah,
and that speaks in the nextthing that I try to make sure to
always do, which is approachthings with humility, because
humility is so important andthat's what you're talking about
.
Like, what does it look like toapproach them, even if I
disagree, even if we don't seeeye to eye, you know, with
kindness, with gentleness, allthese things we're told to be
(15:44):
and look like?
In Philippians 2, it says, donothing from rivalry or conceit,
but in humility, count othersmore significant than yourselves
, and that's pretty powerful.
Like I have to approach thiswhere I can't let my pride and
my ego, even if I think I'mcompletely right and I think
(16:04):
they're an idiot I mean not that, yeah, I do sometimes when I
would especially with my family.
And so it's like, ah, but, butwhat does that look like for me
to stop myself and go wait, whodo I, who am I viewing myself to
be, that Like, I think I'mbetter than them, or I'm smarter
than them, or you know, for meto even judge them like that?
And I'm supposed to beapproaching them, think, in a
(16:26):
way where they're I view themwith eyes that they're, you know
, wonderfully made, they'rebetter than I in some ways, like
what does that mean?
And I would approach them in adifferent way, right?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
You know, mo, I really think this humble
perspective is crucial and Iwant to say, especially to
Christians who are listening tothis podcast, that one of the
traps that I think we can fallinto is that, as believers, if
we love God and we lovescripture and we end up with
(17:04):
strong opinions based on thosetwo Scripture and we end up with
strong opinions based on thosetwo, we assume we've got to be
right, because I love God and Ilove Scripture.
So I got to be right and I justwant to lift up for everyone
here and we talked about thisbefore, friends there are a
whole lot of people in Scripturewho love God, love Scripture
and were utterly wrong,absolutely.
(17:24):
So I mean, it started with thePharisees.
They loved God they lovedscripture and Jesus kept saying
you're seeing it wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
They had it wrong.
And same with the zealots thatwere the opposite side.
They wanted to use force, theywanted to use violence to get
what they thought was justice,and that was wrong as well.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You bet Paul.
Paul started out murderingChristians, murdering.
Christians trying to arrest andhave Christians killed, yeah.
And then he discovered becausehe believed in God and he loved
Scripture.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And then Jesus had to knock him off his high horse
literally and go you're wrong,paul.
And then Peter thought thatGentile people who are coming to
believe in Jesus probablyneeded to be circumcised and
probably needed to have kosherfood.
And he had to have Paulconfront him on one and have a
(18:19):
dream on the other for God toget his thinking changed.
So we need a humbleness in ourapproach because, just because I
love God and love scripture, Imay be wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Oh, absolutely.
And if there's one thing thatGod continues to do throughout
scripture and just life ingeneral, is to show us how we
have no clue what he's doing orhis character fully.
He reveals it mostly, we see,in the most unlikely
circumstances and we're toldGod's ways aren't our ways,
(18:53):
they're far beyond our ways.
And Jesus, when in Luke 18, hesays all those who exalt
themselves will be humbled andthose who humble themselves will
be exalted.
And he's talking.
He's speaking into when aPharisee and a tax collector
were in the temple together andthe tax collector pounded his
chest and cried out to God I'mnot even worthy to be here.
(19:15):
Have mercy on me, god.
Like he understood that.
You know, he is nobody's worthyof this kind of love and all
that God is doing in the world.
And the Pharisee just thoughthimself righteous.
And so we have to come withhumble hearts and not seeking
ourselves, as you know, asthough we have no sin.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, and I just think, as Christians, because we
get the truth right about whoJesus is, we can think that we
understand all the implicationsof that.
And you just look at Christianhistory and we've messed up a
lot.
So we need to hold Jesustightly and let Jesus hold us
tightly, but hold some of ourother beliefs a little more with
(19:58):
open hands to say, okay, god,this is what you've convinced me
of at this point, but I'm opento maybe you need to change me.
I mean, that's what Paul neededto do, that's what Peter needed
to do and that's what we needto do.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
First thing we're called to do is look at the log
hanging out of our eye before wego picking splinters out of
other people's eyes, like ourjob is to not look at that.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
It's so much more fun to see what's wrong in someone
else than to look at ourselves.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Damn you, mir.
No, but I mean, that is wherewe're called to start.
That's why King David was a manafter God's own heart, because
he was always searching himselfand getting real with himself
and being honest and being likethis is where I've fallen short.
I'm so sorry.
I need to correct me.
Our job is never to fix otherpeople, never to save other
(20:44):
people.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
That's God's responsibility and their
responsibility.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Our job is to look like love and compassion and
mercy and forgiveness andnon-judgment and God's presence
in the world.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's our responsibility, and so yeah, and
I think it's also.
If there are situations wherewe are put in, we are in
relationship with someone whoreally sees things differently
and they keep coming at us aboutit, yeah, it's okay to just
simply say I don't think this ishealthy, or to simply say hey,
(21:18):
let's agree.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Can we say I don't think you're healthy, well, no
that isn't.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I don't think this is healthy.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I mean, I mean, this isn't I don't think this is
healthy.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I mean, this isn't healthy.
So sometimes we have to setthose boundaries.
But I think a lot more of thework is us getting our own
selves grounded in what is real,grounded in love and grounded
in who we are in God's eyes, sowe don't have to fight every
battle.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Absolutely and I have to speak truth into this really
quickly is that, as zealous assome people are about their
truth?
I love God, I know scripture.
This is right and you're wrong.
Here's the reality.
You come out of a context, youcome out of a family system, you
come out of a way of thinking,you come out of values that were
(22:00):
taught to you, you come out ofa culture that believes a
certain thing, and all of thosethings influence you to think
that you are 100% right, and sodoes someone else that comes out
of another, completelydifferent context, and so just
viewing things from a morerealistic perspective like that,
I think, is humbling for me,from you guys as well.
(22:22):
Let us know what has worked foryou when you're really dealing
with our family, the people wegenuinely love, neighbors, all
have different viewpoints anddifferent values.
How do you do relationshipswith them?
How do you love them likeChrist?
Please help us.
Help me do this better.
I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
I'm trying Next time onUnpacking Truths.
I mean soggy straws.
When you get those paper straws, no one likes that and other
people are like, well, let meget a metal straw.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
So I'm reusing that.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
And I think those are little things, and I think part
of what, as people whorecognize that we have received
this planet as a gift, we wantto hand it on and that it is
God's in the first place, weneed to do the things that we
can do.
We can't do everything.
I can't take out the swirlingmass of plastics in the Pacific
(23:20):
Ocean.
I don't know how to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
But I thought all things were possible through
Christ, who gives me strength.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
They are, but not possible for Kendall.
Thanks for tuning in.
If anything we said brought upany questions or ideas, let's
keep the conversation going inthe comments below or email us
at unpackingtruths atlocchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we
can continue helping peopleunpack God's truth for their
lives.
What mug did you grab Mo?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
My favorite mug.
It is the mug of love.
It has you and your wifey on it.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Perfect, perfect.
Thank you for sharing that.
It is perfect.
You know, mo, the topic fortoday how to have conversations
with people you disagree with.
I have so much practice in thisbecause I deal with it day to
day dealing with you, oh, isn'tthat nice.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
It's actually how to love people that you don't agree
with.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Oh, that's the topic.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Okay, well, I was close.
We wrestle back and forth alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And I'm Pastor Mo and we are Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.
Today, everyone is seeking, andwe are here to help you find
hope and power in God's Word.
Mo, why don't you share?
You had told me you have astory of a time when and I think
this is such an apropos topicbecause there are so many folks
(00:57):
in our nation, in churches, incommunities, in families, where
there's so much division anddifferent viewpoints.
And how do you haveconversations, how do you love
people, how do you deal withthat, those differences?
So you have a story to start uswith.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, just like.
How do you look like Christwhen you are dealing with people
who have completely differentviewpoints, maybe different
values than you?
For me personally, when I haddiscerned and it took many years
of discernment to walk downthis path of being a pastor
right, my sister thinks verytheologically different and many
(01:35):
of my family members they'reIrish Catholic.
They come out of a contextwhere women can't be pastors.
My sister, very evangelical,and her background with her
husband, genuinely believe inlove, even though she said, hey,
(02:13):
satan's using you.
And I was like whoa and ofcourse my first approach was I
wrote this long.
I had to get off the phone withher or I was going to not look
like Jesus with my words.
And then I wrote this hugeemail, right, and it had all
these points and historicalreferences.
And then I just said at the endof it and I was like for what?
This isn't what love looks like, shouting here's all the areas
(02:34):
how you're wrong.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Had you written it all in caps too?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Oh yeah, absolutely All bold.
It was bold and caps and red,but wait, she's blind, so I
don't know any of that wouldhave mattered, because it just
speaks to her.
So unless it shouted at her,then I would have been happy,
but I knew it wasn't going to.
So yeah, I mean.
So that was a really hard spaceand we've had to just not talk
about it, right, like what doesit look like to say, hey, we're
(02:58):
not going to see eye to eye inthis, and there's a lot that.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
I've learned also dealing with family members and
stuff throughout this process ofloving those with very
different viewpoints.
So how about yourself?
You know, when we came on thistopic, I thought in some ways,
as a pastor for 34 years, thisis what I've been called to do.
I mean, you pastor in a churchwhere you don't agree with every
person's perspective, but partof my role as a pastor is to
love them.
So in some ways it's been agreat training ground to learn
how to do that.
(03:32):
But let's get practical here,and I know you have some ideas,
some strategies and I'll jump inand add some other thoughts.
So why don't?
we start in so where do youthink you start on this?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Definitely.
So some really practical waysand things that I've learned is
the first thing that I do is Ireframe my lens right, like I
reframe the way I see them andmyself.
So who are they?
I have to remind myself.
This is a child of God, I amtold.
They are wonderfully made rightand so right there.
(04:08):
That levels the ground and Ihave to see them quite
differently.
I also have to remind myself ofwho I am.
I am somebody who has to die tomyself daily.
We see that in Luke 9.
I'm somebody that has to live alife filled with love, as we
see in Ephesians 2.
And it's one of our greatestcommandments as well Do to
(04:29):
others as you would have them,do to you Like.
All these things have to comeinto my being before I have
these conversations.
I literally have to remindmyself of who they are and who
I'm called to be before I evenstart talking, cause it helps.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, it is, and I think that's so important and I
love that.
That's where you start, becauseI think it is we, we you people
often think of these as well.
I'm going to go into battle forthis, but no to to.
To look at it, this is a childof God, I'm a child of God and
we're going to have aconversation.
So how do I love this person,even though they're in a
(05:06):
different place?
And I think where you pointedus to, I mean great scriptures,
the last one where Jesus simplysaid love your neighbors
yourself.
If you're going to have tointeract with someone who sees
things very differently, how doyou want them to treat you?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, how do you look like loving that Treat?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
them that way.
I mean, sometimes we think ofJesus' teachings as this like
pie in the sky.
It's very practical.
Yeah, Literally.
How would you want someone totreat you if they disagree with
you?
Would you want them yelling atyou?
No, probably not.
Do you want them calling younames?
Probably not.
Do you want them forcing stuffdown?
(05:43):
You're like, well see,obviously that's not what you
want.
That wouldn't feel loving toyou, so don't do that to others.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Is what Jesus is saying Well, and he lives that
out so beautifully.
And I always ask myself, howdoes he do this?
Because here are these peoplethat are trying to belittle him
and shame him and make him looklike an idiot or accuse him of
being a drunkard or a falseprophet all these things.
And he just sits.
He just calmly and filled withpeace and confidence in who he
(06:16):
is, is always approaching themin love and wisdom.
He calmly just asks themquestions most of the time, and
I seek to be like that, but itdoesn't always work.
But we try.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
But part of that is Jesus remembered who he was.
Absolutely and that's what youwere saying.
It's remembering who thatperson is, but also remembering
who you are.
You are a beloved child of God,Even if this person doesn't see
it that way.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Remembering that about yourself Because we can so
quickly our thoughts, our ideas.
We can confuse them with beingwho we are, oh yeah, and then it
becomes their opposing, isattacking our identity and who
we are as a person.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Rather than a debate around ideas, it's about your
actual personhood.
Yes, now, with the topic youhad used earlier, I could see
how that would go to yourpersonhood, I mean, but there
are a lot of issues that don'tgo in that way.
Some do, though.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Right, but it's not an attack of my personhood.
I have to know who I am inChrist and where my worth comes
from, not from what others think, and so that it's a good place
to start.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I think it's a good place to start.
I think it's a great place tostart.
What's the next thing?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah.
So another one I have isactively listening.
That is so, so huge.
Wisdom listens and fools talk.
I mean that's all throughoutscripture.
We see in Proverbs 18, a fooltakes no pleasure in
understanding, but only inexpressing their opinion.
And we have if one gives ananswer before they hear.
(07:45):
It is a shame.
That's in Proverbs 18.
There's just so much beingquick to listen, slow to speak
in James and let the wise hear.
So much about stoppingourselves and just listening and
really being present to hearwhat they have to say, because
so often we think about what wewant to say before the other
person is even finished and wedon't even understand what
(08:06):
they're saying most of the time.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Absolutely, and that's that.
And so, friends, go to BibleGateway or whatever, plug in,
listen and look in the Proverbs,for all of those scriptures
that Mo pointed to.
I had them on my sheet too,because those are great ones and
those are great reminders.
It is, and part of where thatwhole perspective, though, in
(08:34):
listening, is.
It's taking on what St Francisof Assisi said in his powerful
and wonderful prayer.
He said oh divine master, grantme not so much that I would
seek to be understood as tounderstand.
We're always wanting to foistour ideas out on others, when
the first place we should go isto listen.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Absolutely, and it's funny that you said that,
because that's the very nextthing that I make sure that I
try to implement is seeking tounderstand rather than to be
understood, and this is oftendone by questions.
So it's all about questions,and I look at Jesus' life and
that's what he does most of thetime as a child.
(09:12):
We're told that Jesus asksquestions in the temple.
He's sitting among the teacherslistening to them and asking
questions.
That's in Luke 2.
Jesus asks questions of hisdisciples.
He asks questions to thePharisees.
Even the disciples askquestions to Jesus for
clarification.
Understanding where someone iscoming from will reframe so many
(09:36):
times what you are thinkingabout, their idea or their
thought because you're justperceiving it maybe differently
than what they're actuallytrying to get across.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, and I think there's two levels of
questioning.
One is do I really understandwhat they're saying?
Yeah, and our tendency is oh, Iknow what they're saying, but
we got to pull it back inourselves.
Do I really understand?
But then I think it's thatfollow-up question why did you
get to this position?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Or how, yeah, or how did you get to?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
this position?
Or how, yeah, or how did youget to this place of thing?
Or am I jumping ahead on your,your list?
oh, no, no, you know um, becauseI think that you know, in the
one of the class that we've beentaking, they're talking uh,
they lifted up this idea of,rather than being judgmental, be
curious.
Yes, that's so often we'refoisting our judgment on other
people's ideas rather than beingcurious, like, well, tell me
(10:28):
how you got there, but how didyou get to that perspective?
Because and I was I justwatched a YouTube video where
some master trainer was talkingabout having difficult
conversations and he lifted upthat same idea he didn't name,
he got it from scripture.
But that asking why that?
What happens is is, if you canbegin to trace back how someone
(10:49):
got there, you can begin toconnect with them at a human
level.
And you're not just reactingidea clash to idea clash, you're
understanding where they camefrom.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, or you may come to realize that you weren't
understanding what they weresaying at all Exactly, or
they're like no, no, no, that'snot what I meant.
Let me explain this differently, and so you're giving the
opportunity for them to explainit on a deeper level, maybe,
where it came out of all thosethings which will help reframe
the whole conversation.
So it's so powerful to askquestions.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
It just is and you know, as I was reflecting on
this, they're sort of, if you'reinteracting with someone who
you think or you assume hasdifferent viewpoints than you,
you have sort of three choicesyou can either try to make sure
they understand your truth andyour perspective, or you can
(11:42):
really seek to understand theirperspective, or you can focus on
just maintaining therelationship.
But you can't do all of those.
I mean, especially if you arejust focused on I've got to make
sure, Mo, you understand mytruth.
I'm probably putting therelationship to the side, and
(12:03):
there are times when I think weneed to just get to the point of
going like, okay, we're goingto agree, to disagree.
I'm going to focus on therelationship, even if we're
never going to come to agreement.
And the truth is you're nevergoing to agree with anyone,
everyone.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, everyone, hopefully anyone.
Hopefully we'll agree with acouple of people Once in a while
.
I probably agree with a few ofyou out there.
He doesn't ever agree with me,so that's true, that's another
story, so another one is solet's say, you don't agree with
the person, right?
You guys, you've asked yourquestions, you've actively
listened, you've really heardthem, but you don't agree.
We are to avoid judging.
(12:37):
I remind myself to avoidjudging and one of the verses
that really gets me that Jesussays is do not judge, or you too
will be judged the same way youare judging others.
That one convicts me so muchfrom Matthew 7, because I'm like
no, I don't want to be judgedthe way I'm judging others.
So it's powerful and it remindsme to check myself in that,
(13:01):
because I don't want to bejudged in the same manner.
Right, Like I want people toassume the best of me.
I want people, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That, assuming the best.
That's one of the things that Iloved when Martin Luther did
his small catechism and he didhis reflections on the
commandments.
And the eighth commandment, atleast in the way Luther ordered
them, was do not bear falsewitness against your neighbor,
and I remember learning this asa 14-year-old in confirmation
(13:30):
class.
But we should fear and love God, so we're not curse, swear, lie
or deceive or in these otherparts, but the last phrase and
put the best construction.
Hmm, hmm on your neighbor'sactions, that you describe it in
the best possible way, to otherpeople, but also to yourself,
so that you're not just looking,listening to what other people
(13:51):
say and going like, well, yeah,of course they came out in that
because.
But you're going like, well,what is the kindest way that I
could understand, they could seethis?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
And we don't even have to assume, if we go back to
the asking questions, right,and you can say like, hey, what
I'm hearing you say is this, orcan I mind thinking they meant
by what they said?
And that's so powerful?
(14:27):
Because then that allows forthat space of clearing things up
or just diving deeper into itor understanding one another.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And yeah, yeah, but even when they're saying it, you
can still be looking likepouncing on the negative things
that they say, or you can saywell, they probably meant to say
it this way.
I mean, are you framing it?
How are you filtering theirwords?
Are you looking for thenegative or are you looking for
the commonality?
And where can we findcommonality?
(14:56):
Not that we're going to agreewith everyone.
I don't agree with everyone.
But you know, as Jesus said inwhere is this?
Matthew 5, where he says if youlove only those who love you,
what reward is there for that?
Even corrupt tax collectors dothat much.
If you are kind only to yourfriends, how are you different
(15:19):
from anyone else?
Jesus calls us to a love and akindness to everyone, especially
the people we disagree with.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, and that speaks in the next thing that I try to
make sure to always do, Callsus to a love and a kindness to
everyone Right, especially thepeople we disagree with yeah,
and that speaks in the nextthing that I try to make sure to
always do, which is approachthings with humility, because
humility is so important andthat's what you're talking about
.
Like, what does it look like toapproach them, even if I
disagree, even if we don't seeeye to eye, you know, with
kindness, with gentleness, allthese things we're told to be
(15:44):
and look like?
In Philippians 2, it says, donothing from rivalry or conceit,
but in humility, count othersmore significant than yourselves
, and that's pretty powerful.
Like I have to approach thiswhere I can't let my pride and
my ego, even if I think I'mcompletely right and I think
(16:04):
they're an idiot I mean not that, yeah, I do sometimes when I
would especially with my family.
And so it's like, ah, but, butwhat does that look like for me
to stop myself and go wait, whodo I, who am I viewing myself to
be, that Like, I think I'mbetter than them, or I'm smarter
than them, or you know, for meto even judge them like that?
And I'm supposed to beapproaching them, think, in a
(16:26):
way where they're I view themwith eyes that they're, you know
, wonderfully made, they'rebetter than I in some ways, like
what does that mean?
And I would approach them in adifferent way, right?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
You know, mo, I really think this humble
perspective is crucial and Iwant to say, especially to
Christians who are listening tothis podcast, that one of the
traps that I think we can fallinto is that, as believers, if
we love God and we lovescripture and we end up with
(17:04):
strong opinions based on thosetwo Scripture and we end up with
strong opinions based on thosetwo, we assume we've got to be
right, because I love God and Ilove Scripture.
So I got to be right and I justwant to lift up for everyone
here and we talked about thisbefore, friends there are a
whole lot of people in Scripturewho love God, love Scripture
and were utterly wrong,absolutely.
(17:24):
So I mean, it started with thePharisees.
They loved God they lovedscripture and Jesus kept saying
you're seeing it wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
They had it wrong.
And same with the zealots thatwere the opposite side.
They wanted to use force, theywanted to use violence to get
what they thought was justice,and that was wrong as well.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You bet Paul.
Paul started out murderingChristians, murdering.
Christians trying to arrest andhave Christians killed, yeah.
And then he discovered becausehe believed in God and he loved
Scripture.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
And then Jesus had to knock him off his high horse
literally and go you're wrong,paul.
And then Peter thought thatGentile people who are coming to
believe in Jesus probablyneeded to be circumcised and
probably needed to have kosherfood.
And he had to have Paulconfront him on one and have a
(18:19):
dream on the other for God toget his thinking changed.
So we need a humbleness in ourapproach because, just because I
love God and love scripture, Imay be wrong.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Oh, absolutely.
And if there's one thing thatGod continues to do throughout
scripture and just life ingeneral, is to show us how we
have no clue what he's doing orhis character fully.
He reveals it mostly, we see,in the most unlikely
circumstances and we're toldGod's ways aren't our ways,
(18:53):
they're far beyond our ways.
And Jesus, when in Luke 18, hesays all those who exalt
themselves will be humbled andthose who humble themselves will
be exalted.
And he's talking.
He's speaking into when aPharisee and a tax collector
were in the temple together andthe tax collector pounded his
chest and cried out to God I'mnot even worthy to be here.
(19:15):
Have mercy on me, god.
Like he understood that.
You know, he is nobody's worthyof this kind of love and all
that God is doing in the world.
And the Pharisee just thoughthimself righteous.
And so we have to come withhumble hearts and not seeking
ourselves, as you know, asthough we have no sin.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, and I just think, as Christians, because we
get the truth right about whoJesus is, we can think that we
understand all the implicationsof that.
And you just look at Christianhistory and we've messed up a
lot.
So we need to hold Jesustightly and let Jesus hold us
tightly, but hold some of ourother beliefs a little more with
(19:58):
open hands to say, okay, god,this is what you've convinced me
of at this point, but I'm opento maybe you need to change me.
I mean, that's what Paul neededto do, that's what Peter needed
to do and that's what we needto do.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
First thing we're called to do is look at the log
hanging out of our eye before wego picking splinters out of
other people's eyes, like ourjob is to not look at that.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
It's so much more fun to see what's wrong in someone
else than to look at ourselves.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Damn you, mir.
No, but I mean, that is wherewe're called to start.
That's why King David was a manafter God's own heart, because
he was always searching himselfand getting real with himself
and being honest and being likethis is where I've fallen short.
I'm so sorry.
I need to correct me.
Our job is never to fix otherpeople, never to save other
(20:44):
people.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
That's God's responsibility and their
responsibility.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Our job is to look like love and compassion and
mercy and forgiveness andnon-judgment and God's presence
in the world.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's our responsibility, and so yeah, and
I think it's also.
If there are situations wherewe are put in, we are in
relationship with someone whoreally sees things differently
and they keep coming at us aboutit, yeah, it's okay to just
simply say I don't think this ishealthy, or to simply say hey,
(21:18):
let's agree.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Can we say I don't think you're healthy, well, no
that isn't.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I don't think this is healthy.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I mean, I mean, this isn't I don't think this is
healthy.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I mean, this isn't healthy.
So sometimes we have to setthose boundaries.
But I think a lot more of thework is us getting our own
selves grounded in what is real,grounded in love and grounded
in who we are in God's eyes, sowe don't have to fight every
battle.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Absolutely and I have to speak truth into this really
quickly is that, as zealous assome people are about their
truth?
I love God, I know scripture.
This is right and you're wrong.
Here's the reality.
You come out of a context, youcome out of a family system, you
come out of a way of thinking,you come out of values that were
(22:00):
taught to you, you come out ofa culture that believes a
certain thing, and all of thosethings influence you to think
that you are 100% right, and sodoes someone else that comes out
of another, completelydifferent context, and so just
viewing things from a morerealistic perspective like that,
I think, is humbling for me,from you guys as well.
(22:22):
Let us know what has worked foryou when you're really dealing
with our family, the people wegenuinely love, neighbors, all
have different viewpoints anddifferent values.
How do you do relationshipswith them?
How do you love them likeChrist?
Please help us.
Help me do this better.
I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
I'm trying Next time onUnpacking Truths.
I mean soggy straws.
When you get those paper straws, no one likes that and other
people are like, well, let meget a metal straw.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
So I'm reusing that.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
And I think those are little things, and I think part
of what, as people whorecognize that we have received
this planet as a gift, we wantto hand it on and that it is
God's in the first place, weneed to do the things that we
can do.
We can't do everything.
I can't take out the swirlingmass of plastics in the Pacific
(23:20):
Ocean.
I don't know how to do that.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
But I thought all things were possible through
Christ, who gives me strength.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
They are, but not possible for Kendall.
Thanks for tuning in.
If anything we said brought upany questions or ideas, let's
keep the conversation going inthe comments below or email us
at unpackingtruths atlocchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we
can continue helping peopleunpack God's truth for their
lives.
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