November 12, 2024 • 24 mins
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https://youtu.be/o5AzRX_ZiAA
Is marriage only an earthly concept, or does it carry into the divine realm? In this episode of Unpacking Truths, we dive deep into this question, beginning with a lighthearted anecdote before exploring Jesus’ teachings on marriage in the afterlife. By examining his conversation with the Sadducees, we uncover how earthly relationships are transformed in God’s presence, where reuniting with loved ones goes beyond mere connection and into an embrace of heaven’s boundless, unconditional love.
Our journey continues as we ponder the mysteries of resurrected bodies and new understandings that await us in the afterlife. Passages like 1 Corinthians 15 provide hope and comfort, reflecting on healing, restoration, and the ultimate transformation within the divine embrace.
But our exploration doesn’t end there. We also delve into revival movements in modern churches, where the Holy Spirit sparks fresh passion and inspires believers to seek a more profound connection with God. These movements challenge routine, fueling faith journeys that go beyond ritual into genuine spiritual renewal.
Join us in contemplating these profound questions of faith, spirituality, and the afterlife. Don’t forget to visit our website, reach out via email, and share this episode with others on their own spiritual journeys.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today, on Unpacking Truths, we are going to be
addressing one of your questions, which was is there marriage in
heaven?
And with such a serious topic,I have to begin us off with a
joke, okay.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
So there was a couple on their way to their wedding
day and sadly they got in a caraccident.
And as they arrived at thepearly gates, st Peter was there
and they said you know what?
We had a plan to get married.
Can we get married here?
And St Peter said you know what?
Hold on a second, let me checkthat out.
He leaves.
They're there for about threemonths waiting at the pearly
(00:34):
gates to get in, and as they'retalking, they're like you know,
do we really want to do this?
Like forever, this is likeeternity.
We're going to be together.
Maybe, I don't know.
So St Peter comes back and he'slike you know what?
The answer is yes, you couldget married here.
And then they said well, we'vebeen thinking about this, can we
get divorced?
And his face got red and helooked mad and they said what's
(00:55):
going on?
And he goes.
It took me three months to finda pastor here and now you want
me to find a lawyer?
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know, Good one Mo.
All right, Good one Mo.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
More seriously, because I know lots of inquiring
minds want to know what haveyou found?
What have you discovered with?
Is there a marriage in heaven?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
The answer is no, oh, the end of the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, so you're welcome to those who want to
know if you have to continue topay alimony while in heaven, and
to the rest, I'm Pastor Kendalland I'm Pastor.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So no, well, let's unpack that a little bit.
I mean, jesus was kind of askedthis question, but in a
roundabout way.
There was this group ofSadducees.
Yeah, there was one of the foursort of key religious groupings
of Jewish people in Jesus' day,the Sadducees.
And well, let me just read it.
(02:03):
People in Jesus' day, theSadducees.
And well, let me just read it.
That same day, jesus wasapproached by some Sadducees
religious leaders who say thereis no resurrection from the dead
.
So this was one of the groups.
There were other Jewish groupsthat believed in resurrection.
The Sadducees didn't, so theytried to create an impossible
story.
So they posed this question,teacher, to Jesus.
Moses said if a man dies withoutchildren, his brother should
(02:26):
marry the widow and have a childwho will carry on the brother's
name.
Well, suppose there were sevenbrothers.
The oldest one married and thendied without children.
So his brother married thewidow, but the second brother
also died and the third brothermarried her.
This continued with all sevenof them.
Last of all, the woman alsodied.
So tell us whose wife will shebe in the resurrection?
(02:48):
For all seven were married toher.
Jesus replied your mistake isthat you don't know the
scriptures and you don't knowthe power of God For when the
dead rise, they will neithermarry nor be given in marriage.
In this respect, they will belike the angels in heaven.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, I'm still stuck on how all seven died, because
this sounds like a black widowtype situation for me.
Like one or two husbands die,fine, maybe three, seven, seven.
Come on now, girl, likesomething's going on here.
There's one common denominatorit's wifey.
Yeah, I think the seventhbrother is like no way am I
taking her on.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
He's like no, no please, please, don't make me
marry her.
So on some level, the personasked this honest question of us
, and so this is one wheresometimes there's a simple
answer out of Scripture, whereJesus says there is no marrying
or giving in marriage.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
But that of course raises other questions that
maybe we can talk about.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, and I think Jesus is implying that our idea
of earthly marriage doesn'tcontinue in the afterlife.
Right?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
So our relationships, they become transformed in a
new way, like a state ofperfection, as we enter full
union with God and full unionwith one another, in a space and
a place where we're toldthere's no more tears or crying,
or pain or sorrow or death, youknow.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, you know and Mo , this in some ways goes to
something that has, you know, inthis pastor's heart and soul,
has always kind of troubled meand been unsettled, has always
kind of troubled me and beenunsettled, that you know, one of
the privileges that we have inour roles is to come alongside
(04:30):
people at a time of death, whenthere's been a loss in their
family, and you know it is aprivilege to walk with people in
that time to proclaim God'sword of hope and the
resurrection and that.
But it is sometimes felt to mein my conversations with
families that the only thingpeople are looking forward to is
being with a relative and in away like, oh, I just can't wait
(04:55):
to be with so-and-so.
I'm sure they can't wait to bewith their spouse, who had died
before, or their mom or theiruncle or whatever their favorite
.
And the place that had alwaysbeen unsettled for me is going
into heaven.
It's going into the presence ofGod and that really is what
(05:16):
heaven is about.
It's almost like I sometimesfeel, like you know God will
take or leave him.
I just want these people andpart of what I hear scripture
pointing us is our vision is toosmall and that how we, that the
glimpses, the experiences oflove and embracing and warmth
and unconditional care that wehave experienced in this life is
(05:39):
just a teaspoonful.
Yeah, yeah of the unconditionallove of God, and it's like we're
going after the teaspoon fullwhen God has a whole big bowl of
unconditional love for us.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So I think we've, sometimes we almost have
flip-flopped, flip-flopped, yeahWell but and it makes sense
because you know, let's behonest how many of us say like,
oh, I'm a Christian, or and yetwe do spend more time and energy
in relationships, earthlyrelationships, than we do with
God Of course, here's where welive.
(06:12):
It's all normal, I think, tosay can't wait to see you know
my wife that I was married tofor 40 years, or can't wait to
see you know my child that Ilost, or Grandpa Charlie.
(06:34):
Yeah, it's like because it's theonly experience that is not the
only, but it's probably themost powerful, I think,
experience for them andunderstanding of love and
relationship.
Sadly Right.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So it's not that those relationships are sad.
No, no, no, I just wanted toclarify.
No, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I mean, unless you didn't like them.
I was like no, but no, sadly.
If they had, in this world,right in their time here on
earth, spent more time with God,they would be so excited to go
into the arms of the Lord andexperience that kind of union
with our Creator right.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, well, and when you look at the book of
Revelation and the revelationthat John had on Patmos and that
whole, all the crazy, powerful,weird symbolism in there, most
and that whole, all the crazy,powerful, weird symbolism in
there, but a lot of that youknow, I just think of in
(07:35):
Revelation 21,.
You know that when he's talkingabout that, the wall of the
city was built on a foundationstones inlaid with precious
stones and all these layers ofonyx and carnelian and
chrysolite and beryl and youknow, and the 12 gates were made
of a pearl and the main streetswere pure gold.
I mean, it's not literally thatthe pavement will be gold.
(07:57):
It was that John was trying todescribe what he was
experiencing in this vision ofbeauty beyond imagining, and so
he was using the most beautifulthings he could think of to
describe what he wasexperiencing.
That heaven is so beyond ourexperience that sometimes it's
(08:18):
hard for us to get our armsaround it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Right and Revelation 21 speaks into that.
It paints that picture for us.
But in 21.3, it's literallystating in heaven, all believers
will experience perfect unitywith Christ and with one another
.
So that's the beauty.
It's perfect unity, as God hadintended from the beginning.
And we also get awesome goldpaved roads and gates made of
(08:44):
pearls and lots of other prettythings.
If you're like me and you likethe sparkle, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I mean, who doesn't want that?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I mean, I heard a joke and I'll mess it up here
because I didn't prepare butsomething that someone brought a
suitcase with them to heavenand they came up to the pearly
gates and they opened it becauseit was their most precious
possession.
It was just filled with allthese gold bullion bars and St
(09:14):
Peter looked at them and said,oh, you bought pavement along.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Oh, nice, I don't know about you, but like, when I
do premarital stuff withcouples, you know, one of the
scriptures that I do use is outof Revelation 19, seven and nine
, speaking into how we are thebride of Christ.
Right, and so this maritalrelationship is to, here on
(09:40):
earth, point to what our unionis like, what our perfect
relationship is like with ourSavior in heaven, and we're to
try to live that out.
But it becomes a symbol, rightas you, until death, do us part.
Right, are you willing tosacrificially love me, whatever
that looks like during certainseasons, whether we're sick,
(10:01):
whether we're healthy, whetherwe're poor, whether we're rich?
Like, are you willing to walkthis life with me, like that, in
that beautiful union and that'sjust a fraction of what it's
like in heaven, with God andwith others, you know.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, and you know, as you were describing, I mean
hence that classic traditionalmarriage vow for richer, for
poorer, in sickness and inhealth.
That sense of that commitmentto another human being is a
example of God's unconditionallove and commitment to us and
(10:40):
that we have the chance toexperience that in our life
today.
But as Paul said in uh in uh,first, corinthians 13, we see
through a mirror, darkly, butthen we will see face to face
that we will, that we getglimpses of God's grace, the
wonder of you know you're on amountainside and you just are
(11:04):
overwhelmed by the awesomeness,and that's just a glimpse.
Mountainside and you just areoverwhelmed by the awesomeness,
and that's just a glimpse.
That's just the feeling youhave in that moment, is just a
touch of what the embrace andthe wonder of God is, or in the
hug from the person who lovesyou unconditionally, and the
peace that you feel in thatmoment is a glimpse of the peace
(11:29):
that we will eventually knowface to face.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, and when I think about the Matthew 22, 30,
where Jesus says that you knowwe won't need marriage, right
Like we'll be like the angels inheaven.
Yeah, you know, just thinkinglike, okay, so what is it?
We probably won't need itbecause we'll be experiencing
what marriage symbolized here.
(11:53):
But I love that.
We will be with right, the bodyof believers.
Yeah, we see in Ephesians 2, weare the family of God, we're
called members of the householdof God and we will be with our
body of believers.
And you spoke into being.
(12:13):
Are we married in heaven?
But you started to kind oftouch on do we see other people
in heaven?
Right, are we experiencingother people and what?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
are your thoughts on that?
Well, I think here's where Ithink it's also important and I
know we wanted to go there alittle bit.
Sometimes I think we have moreof a Greek or a Platonic
understanding of heaven that ourbody dies and our soul goes to
heaven.
I think a lot of Christianskind of talk about it in that
way, but biblically it talksabout the resurrection of the
(12:44):
dead, that we will be embodiedpeople in heaven.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I think that's at the second coming, Because
when we're in heaven and I thinkthat's where that idea came
from like that spirit versusphysical body right, Because I
think it talks about when wewill resurrect like Christ and
be in bodily form like Christ,but I don't think we're in body
(13:10):
when we die.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, and let me just pause, I mean, this is where we
differ.
See, we're unpacking oh yeah,we're unpacking this and Mo
let's just turn and go like weare all moving at the edge of
what anyone can fully know.
We are basing it on variousscriptures and there are
contradictory or contradictoryis the wrong word paradoxical
(13:33):
scriptures in scripture whereJesus says to the thief at his
side today you will be with mein paradise, and at other times
it talks about and then at theresurrection of the dead.
One of the ways that I've madesense of that is I just my one
way to put together this.
Well, it happened at the end oris it happening immediately?
(13:53):
Is that maybe after our deathtime doesn't mean anything.
And that that's one way to tryand put this mystery together.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
No, it might.
No, all my family's up andhaving having a party waiting
for me.
You know I got a seat, you know, at the bar there.
It's a dance floor ready to go.
No.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Okay, no, I'm wrong, most right.
Yeah, come on In her mind.
Come on, mo, we're on back inhere, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Because okay.
So when we're talking about thenature of our body, like
resurrected or not, I can't.
So let's go to like 1Corinthians 15, 36 to 44.
It talks all about how theresurrected body Paul speaks
into the resurrected body.
It will be real, it will bephysical, but it will be
imperishable, right, Glorious,free from sickness and weakness
(14:49):
and death.
But at the time that Christcomes again, right, and our
bodies are modeled after hisresurrected body.
But yet I don't think we needour bodies until we're raised
again.
Jesus is here.
It's a new earth, right?
That's the big picture Thykingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth as itis in heaven.
(15:10):
Jesus is coming back.
It's going to be a new earth.
All things will be made new,All things will be made right.
Heaven and earth merge.
And so we get our bodies back.
Okay, so your relatives arehaving a disembodied party in
heaven, but then eventually theywill have bodies in the
(15:33):
resurrection.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay, well, and here's where.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
They don't need to party, they're in full union
with the creator.
I mean, nothing's better thanthat.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
You know, I think this is just one of those places
where, as soon as we starttalking about what happens after
our death, we start enteringinto an era where there's a
woman in our congregation whohelped to edit a book by an
(16:04):
Indian man who was pronouncedclinically dead and came back to
life and he talks about hisexperiences in that time.
So the people, those near deathand those post-death- so did he
say he had a body?
It's been a while since I readhis book, but there are a number
(16:25):
of these books that are outthere about people have had
these experiences and thencoming back and they describe
things similarly and differently.
We have scriptures thatdescribe things like this and
like this.
I think we are getting to aplace where, as I remember, my
college religion prof out atLuther College, decorah, iowa,
(16:48):
go Norse, said to me RichardSimon Hanson.
He said that the role oftheology is to clarify where the
line is that, the line of whatwe can know and understand and
the line beyond which we can'tknow.
And to me there's a lot inscripture that helps us to
understand what we can know.
What is beyond that line, andsome of that how things work
(17:12):
after death, I think, ends upbeing mystery.
And so what we can say is wehave hope and promise and joy
awaiting us.
Exactly the timeline, thestructure, how that's all going
to look.
Yeah, a lot of Christians haveseen that differently.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
You know, I'm actually thinking of the
transfiguration, right, Sure andso?
And I'm thinking of how theysaw Moses and Elijah, yeah, I
mean, and they had to have beenin some form of bodily form in
order to be seen.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I mean, Peter wanted to make booths for him tents to
be able to live in, so yeah,yeah, so you know when we die,
if it's like Christ right here.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Christ came back when he was resurrected.
He's eating, he's, you know,able to touch, he's able to, you
know, and walk through walls,and yet he walks through walls,
right.
So, it's a different kind ofbody.
It is, it's a walk-through wallkind of body.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, exactly, and I just love some of Paul's words
going back to 1 Corinthians 15.
It is the same way with theresurrection of the dead.
Our earthly bodies are plantedin the ground when we die, but
they will be raised to liveforever.
Our bodies are buried inbrokenness, but they will be
raised in glory.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in glory
(18:24):
.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in
strength.
They are buried as naturalhuman bodies, but they will be
raised as spiritual bodies.
And so exactly what that islike it's just a spiritual body.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You get to walk through walls.
You get to walk through walls.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, but you still get to eat food.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
So it's worth it.
It's a win.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's a win.
Walls, don't stop you.
Food still tastes good, I'm in.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
All right, you know who cares if we're married.
Well, I don't know.
Is there dating in marriage orin heaven?
Like, do we need to?
What about the single folk?
You know what I mean.
Like, what about us?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, here again going back to Jesus, he says for
when the dead rise, they willneither marry nor be given in
marriage.
So Tinder Bumble not needed inheaven.
So just you know all you ITdevelopers app developers,
you'll be using your skills indifferent ways.
(19:23):
We won't need those.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, no, there'll be wholeness and fullness of life
without the dating, without themarriage, right, Absolutely.
That's what it's about.
But I do love and I want tonote that I think it's just a
whole different idea of what itmeans, Cause there's so many
people, like as I've walkedalongside them on their deathbed
, saying things like you know,how old will I be?
(19:46):
Will I be, you know, in mynineties Will I have I want to
be back when I was 32 orwhatever it is, and it's like,
oh, none of that will matter.
Like Christ, when he rose, hadscars on his body, and to us we
have these cosmetic proceduresto get rid of the scars.
So I think our way of seeingthings, of experiencing
(20:09):
ourselves, of knowing who Godcreated us to be, I think it'll
be so transformed, right andyeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I just think it's important to know that.
You bet it, mo.
The verse that I hold on to,also from Revelation, is just,
and every tear will be wipedaway.
I've shed plenty of tears in mylife and to me, tears are that
there will be no more of thatsense of loss, of that sense of
(20:39):
brokenness, and that we will berestored, we will be renewed,
and Jesus finally, as he metwith his disciples, while there
were scars, there was notweakness or brokenness, but
there was still the recognitionof what he had gone through.
So in that sense, we will take,but it wasn't a wound, it was a
(21:06):
scar, it had been healed, andso all of the wounds of our life
physically, emotionally will behealed.
And that is why the tears willbe wiped away, because we will
be healed and we will berestored and, whether that's 16
or 26 or 86 or however, weexperience that and I think it's
(21:26):
beyond us to understand that wewill be healed and we will be
in the presence of the God,whose love is beyond measure.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Absolutely so, though .
We will be with the body ofbelievers and in perfect union
with God.
We won't need things like amarriage necessarily, right, god
.
We won't need things like amarriage necessarily Right.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Absolutely, I love that.
So yeah, well, you may disagreewith that or you may be
troubled by that, so put that inthe comments and we can wrestle
with that with you as wecontinue to try to unpack God's
truth together.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, but if you would like to share, like this
podcast, if you think someonecan get something out of it,
please do so.
This is what it's about and wedo know this.
There is no alimony in heaven.
That's all we know.
And your dogs go to heaven.
We have one of those podcastsas well and, if you're confused,
still, we have a podcast onpurgatory, so check that out.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And if you have other questions you want us to dig
into or unpack, please put thosein the comment line.
Send them in tounpackingtruthscom.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
To me the Protestant Reformation, martin Luther,
calling it back to the fact thatit's not about what we do to
get ourselves right with God.
It's that God sent Jesus, thatit's, as I like to say, the
arrows pointing down.
It's not what do I do to getourselves right with God.
It's that God sent Jesus, thatit's, as I like to say, the
arrows pointing down.
It's not what do I do to go upto God.
It's that God came down to us,that it's grace is at the heart
of it.
Great, we are saved by grace,through faith.
That's key theological.
Some other divisions withinChristian churches are maybe not
(22:58):
that essential things, butthat's what's formed some
denominations.
Some have been these revivalmovements.
Within that the church seems tohave gotten stayed or boring or
just sort of ritualistic.
And then the Holy Spirit birthsa revival movement to call
people back to a passionatefollowing of Jesus and not just
a perfunctory following of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Today, on Unpacking Truths, we are going to be
addressing one of your questions, which was is there marriage in
heaven?
And with such a serious topic,I have to begin us off with a
joke, okay.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
So there was a couple on their way to their wedding
day and sadly they got in a caraccident.
And as they arrived at thepearly gates, st Peter was there
and they said you know what?
We had a plan to get married.
Can we get married here?
And St Peter said you know what?
Hold on a second, let me checkthat out.
He leaves.
They're there for about threemonths waiting at the pearly
(00:34):
gates to get in, and as they'retalking, they're like you know,
do we really want to do this?
Like forever, this is likeeternity.
We're going to be together.
Maybe, I don't know.
So St Peter comes back and he'slike you know what?
The answer is yes, you couldget married here.
And then they said well, we'vebeen thinking about this, can we
get divorced?
And his face got red and helooked mad and they said what's
(00:55):
going on?
And he goes.
It took me three months to finda pastor here and now you want
me to find a lawyer?
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I know, Good one Mo.
All right, Good one Mo.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
More seriously, because I know lots of inquiring
minds want to know what haveyou found?
What have you discovered with?
Is there a marriage in heaven?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
The answer is no, oh, the end of the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, so you're welcome to those who want to
know if you have to continue topay alimony while in heaven, and
to the rest, I'm Pastor Kendalland I'm Pastor.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So no, well, let's unpack that a little bit.
I mean, jesus was kind of askedthis question, but in a
roundabout way.
There was this group ofSadducees.
Yeah, there was one of the foursort of key religious groupings
of Jewish people in Jesus' day,the Sadducees.
And well, let me just read it.
(02:03):
People in Jesus' day, theSadducees.
And well, let me just read it.
That same day, jesus wasapproached by some Sadducees
religious leaders who say thereis no resurrection from the dead
.
So this was one of the groups.
There were other Jewish groupsthat believed in resurrection.
The Sadducees didn't, so theytried to create an impossible
story.
So they posed this question,teacher, to Jesus.
Moses said if a man dies withoutchildren, his brother should
(02:26):
marry the widow and have a childwho will carry on the brother's
name.
Well, suppose there were sevenbrothers.
The oldest one married and thendied without children.
So his brother married thewidow, but the second brother
also died and the third brothermarried her.
This continued with all sevenof them.
Last of all, the woman alsodied.
So tell us whose wife will shebe in the resurrection?
(02:48):
For all seven were married toher.
Jesus replied your mistake isthat you don't know the
scriptures and you don't knowthe power of God For when the
dead rise, they will neithermarry nor be given in marriage.
In this respect, they will belike the angels in heaven.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, I'm still stuck on how all seven died, because
this sounds like a black widowtype situation for me.
Like one or two husbands die,fine, maybe three, seven, seven.
Come on now, girl, likesomething's going on here.
There's one common denominatorit's wifey.
Yeah, I think the seventhbrother is like no way am I
taking her on.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
He's like no, no please, please, don't make me
marry her.
So on some level, the personasked this honest question of us
, and so this is one wheresometimes there's a simple
answer out of Scripture, whereJesus says there is no marrying
or giving in marriage.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
But that of course raises other questions that
maybe we can talk about.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, and I think Jesus is implying that our idea
of earthly marriage doesn'tcontinue in the afterlife.
Right?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
So our relationships, they become transformed in a
new way, like a state ofperfection, as we enter full
union with God and full unionwith one another, in a space and
a place where we're toldthere's no more tears or crying,
or pain or sorrow or death, youknow.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, you know and Mo , this in some ways goes to
something that has, you know, inthis pastor's heart and soul,
has always kind of troubled meand been unsettled, has always
kind of troubled me and beenunsettled, that you know, one of
the privileges that we have inour roles is to come alongside
(04:30):
people at a time of death, whenthere's been a loss in their
family, and you know it is aprivilege to walk with people in
that time to proclaim God'sword of hope and the
resurrection and that.
But it is sometimes felt to mein my conversations with
families that the only thingpeople are looking forward to is
being with a relative and in away like, oh, I just can't wait
(04:55):
to be with so-and-so.
I'm sure they can't wait to bewith their spouse, who had died
before, or their mom or theiruncle or whatever their favorite
.
And the place that had alwaysbeen unsettled for me is going
into heaven.
It's going into the presence ofGod and that really is what
(05:16):
heaven is about.
It's almost like I sometimesfeel, like you know God will
take or leave him.
I just want these people andpart of what I hear scripture
pointing us is our vision is toosmall and that how we, that the
glimpses, the experiences oflove and embracing and warmth
and unconditional care that wehave experienced in this life is
(05:39):
just a teaspoonful.
Yeah, yeah of the unconditionallove of God, and it's like we're
going after the teaspoon fullwhen God has a whole big bowl of
unconditional love for us.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So I think we've, sometimes we almost have
flip-flopped, flip-flopped, yeahWell but and it makes sense
because you know, let's behonest how many of us say like,
oh, I'm a Christian, or and yetwe do spend more time and energy
in relationships, earthlyrelationships, than we do with
God Of course, here's where welive.
(06:12):
It's all normal, I think, tosay can't wait to see you know
my wife that I was married tofor 40 years, or can't wait to
see you know my child that Ilost, or Grandpa Charlie.
(06:34):
Yeah, it's like because it's theonly experience that is not the
only, but it's probably themost powerful, I think,
experience for them andunderstanding of love and
relationship.
Sadly Right.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So it's not that those relationships are sad.
No, no, no, I just wanted toclarify.
No, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I mean, unless you didn't like them.
I was like no, but no, sadly.
If they had, in this world,right in their time here on
earth, spent more time with God,they would be so excited to go
into the arms of the Lord andexperience that kind of union
with our Creator right.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, well, and when you look at the book of
Revelation and the revelationthat John had on Patmos and that
whole, all the crazy, powerful,weird symbolism in there, most
and that whole, all the crazy,powerful, weird symbolism in
there, but a lot of that youknow, I just think of in
(07:35):
Revelation 21,.
You know that when he's talkingabout that, the wall of the
city was built on a foundationstones inlaid with precious
stones and all these layers ofonyx and carnelian and
chrysolite and beryl and youknow, and the 12 gates were made
of a pearl and the main streetswere pure gold.
I mean, it's not literally thatthe pavement will be gold.
(07:57):
It was that John was trying todescribe what he was
experiencing in this vision ofbeauty beyond imagining, and so
he was using the most beautifulthings he could think of to
describe what he wasexperiencing.
That heaven is so beyond ourexperience that sometimes it's
(08:18):
hard for us to get our armsaround it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Right and Revelation 21 speaks into that.
It paints that picture for us.
But in 21.3, it's literallystating in heaven, all believers
will experience perfect unitywith Christ and with one another
.
So that's the beauty.
It's perfect unity, as God hadintended from the beginning.
And we also get awesome goldpaved roads and gates made of
(08:44):
pearls and lots of other prettythings.
If you're like me and you likethe sparkle, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I mean, who doesn't want that?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I mean, I heard a joke and I'll mess it up here
because I didn't prepare butsomething that someone brought a
suitcase with them to heavenand they came up to the pearly
gates and they opened it becauseit was their most precious
possession.
It was just filled with allthese gold bullion bars and St
(09:14):
Peter looked at them and said,oh, you bought pavement along.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Oh, nice, I don't know about you, but like, when I
do premarital stuff withcouples, you know, one of the
scriptures that I do use is outof Revelation 19, seven and nine
, speaking into how we are thebride of Christ.
Right, and so this maritalrelationship is to, here on
(09:40):
earth, point to what our unionis like, what our perfect
relationship is like with ourSavior in heaven, and we're to
try to live that out.
But it becomes a symbol, rightas you, until death, do us part.
Right, are you willing tosacrificially love me, whatever
that looks like during certainseasons, whether we're sick,
(10:01):
whether we're healthy, whetherwe're poor, whether we're rich?
Like, are you willing to walkthis life with me, like that, in
that beautiful union and that'sjust a fraction of what it's
like in heaven, with God andwith others, you know.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, and you know, as you were describing, I mean
hence that classic traditionalmarriage vow for richer, for
poorer, in sickness and inhealth.
That sense of that commitmentto another human being is a
example of God's unconditionallove and commitment to us and
(10:40):
that we have the chance toexperience that in our life
today.
But as Paul said in uh in uh,first, corinthians 13, we see
through a mirror, darkly, butthen we will see face to face
that we will, that we getglimpses of God's grace, the
wonder of you know you're on amountainside and you just are
(11:04):
overwhelmed by the awesomeness,and that's just a glimpse.
Mountainside and you just areoverwhelmed by the awesomeness,
and that's just a glimpse.
That's just the feeling youhave in that moment, is just a
touch of what the embrace andthe wonder of God is, or in the
hug from the person who lovesyou unconditionally, and the
peace that you feel in thatmoment is a glimpse of the peace
(11:29):
that we will eventually knowface to face.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, and when I think about the Matthew 22, 30,
where Jesus says that you knowwe won't need marriage, right
Like we'll be like the angels inheaven.
Yeah, you know, just thinkinglike, okay, so what is it?
We probably won't need itbecause we'll be experiencing
what marriage symbolized here.
(11:53):
But I love that.
We will be with right, the bodyof believers.
Yeah, we see in Ephesians 2, weare the family of God, we're
called members of the householdof God and we will be with our
body of believers.
And you spoke into being.
(12:13):
Are we married in heaven?
But you started to kind oftouch on do we see other people
in heaven?
Right, are we experiencingother people and what?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
are your thoughts on that?
Well, I think here's where Ithink it's also important and I
know we wanted to go there alittle bit.
Sometimes I think we have moreof a Greek or a Platonic
understanding of heaven that ourbody dies and our soul goes to
heaven.
I think a lot of Christianskind of talk about it in that
way, but biblically it talksabout the resurrection of the
(12:44):
dead, that we will be embodiedpeople in heaven.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I think that's at the second coming, Because
when we're in heaven and I thinkthat's where that idea came
from like that spirit versusphysical body right, Because I
think it talks about when wewill resurrect like Christ and
be in bodily form like Christ,but I don't think we're in body
(13:10):
when we die.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, and let me just pause, I mean, this is where we
differ.
See, we're unpacking oh yeah,we're unpacking this and Mo
let's just turn and go like weare all moving at the edge of
what anyone can fully know.
We are basing it on variousscriptures and there are
contradictory or contradictoryis the wrong word paradoxical
(13:33):
scriptures in scripture whereJesus says to the thief at his
side today you will be with mein paradise, and at other times
it talks about and then at theresurrection of the dead.
One of the ways that I've madesense of that is I just my one
way to put together this.
Well, it happened at the end oris it happening immediately?
(13:53):
Is that maybe after our deathtime doesn't mean anything.
And that that's one way to tryand put this mystery together.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
No, it might.
No, all my family's up andhaving having a party waiting
for me.
You know I got a seat, you know, at the bar there.
It's a dance floor ready to go.
No.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Okay, no, I'm wrong, most right.
Yeah, come on In her mind.
Come on, mo, we're on back inhere, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Because okay.
So when we're talking about thenature of our body, like
resurrected or not, I can't.
So let's go to like 1Corinthians 15, 36 to 44.
It talks all about how theresurrected body Paul speaks
into the resurrected body.
It will be real, it will bephysical, but it will be
imperishable, right, Glorious,free from sickness and weakness
(14:49):
and death.
But at the time that Christcomes again, right, and our
bodies are modeled after hisresurrected body.
But yet I don't think we needour bodies until we're raised
again.
Jesus is here.
It's a new earth, right?
That's the big picture Thykingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth as itis in heaven.
(15:10):
Jesus is coming back.
It's going to be a new earth.
All things will be made new,All things will be made right.
Heaven and earth merge.
And so we get our bodies back.
Okay, so your relatives arehaving a disembodied party in
heaven, but then eventually theywill have bodies in the
(15:33):
resurrection.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay, well, and here's where.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
They don't need to party, they're in full union
with the creator.
I mean, nothing's better thanthat.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
You know, I think this is just one of those places
where, as soon as we starttalking about what happens after
our death, we start enteringinto an era where there's a
woman in our congregation whohelped to edit a book by an
(16:04):
Indian man who was pronouncedclinically dead and came back to
life and he talks about hisexperiences in that time.
So the people, those near deathand those post-death- so did he
say he had a body?
It's been a while since I readhis book, but there are a number
(16:25):
of these books that are outthere about people have had
these experiences and thencoming back and they describe
things similarly and differently.
We have scriptures thatdescribe things like this and
like this.
I think we are getting to aplace where, as I remember, my
college religion prof out atLuther College, decorah, iowa,
(16:48):
go Norse, said to me RichardSimon Hanson.
He said that the role oftheology is to clarify where the
line is that, the line of whatwe can know and understand and
the line beyond which we can'tknow.
And to me there's a lot inscripture that helps us to
understand what we can know.
What is beyond that line, andsome of that how things work
(17:12):
after death, I think, ends upbeing mystery.
And so what we can say is wehave hope and promise and joy
awaiting us.
Exactly the timeline, thestructure, how that's all going
to look.
Yeah, a lot of Christians haveseen that differently.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
You know, I'm actually thinking of the
transfiguration, right, Sure andso?
And I'm thinking of how theysaw Moses and Elijah, yeah, I
mean, and they had to have beenin some form of bodily form in
order to be seen.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I mean, Peter wanted to make booths for him tents to
be able to live in, so yeah,yeah, so you know when we die,
if it's like Christ right here.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Christ came back when he was resurrected.
He's eating, he's, you know,able to touch, he's able to, you
know, and walk through walls,and yet he walks through walls,
right.
So, it's a different kind ofbody.
It is, it's a walk-through wallkind of body.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, exactly, and I just love some of Paul's words
going back to 1 Corinthians 15.
It is the same way with theresurrection of the dead.
Our earthly bodies are plantedin the ground when we die, but
they will be raised to liveforever.
Our bodies are buried inbrokenness, but they will be
raised in glory.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in glory
(18:24):
.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in
strength.
They are buried as naturalhuman bodies, but they will be
raised as spiritual bodies.
And so exactly what that islike it's just a spiritual body.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You get to walk through walls.
You get to walk through walls.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, but you still get to eat food.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
So it's worth it.
It's a win.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
It's a win.
Walls, don't stop you.
Food still tastes good, I'm in.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
All right, you know who cares if we're married.
Well, I don't know.
Is there dating in marriage orin heaven?
Like, do we need to?
What about the single folk?
You know what I mean.
Like, what about us?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, here again going back to Jesus, he says for
when the dead rise, they willneither marry nor be given in
marriage.
So Tinder Bumble not needed inheaven.
So just you know all you ITdevelopers app developers,
you'll be using your skills indifferent ways.
(19:23):
We won't need those.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, no, there'll be wholeness and fullness of life
without the dating, without themarriage, right, Absolutely.
That's what it's about.
But I do love and I want tonote that I think it's just a
whole different idea of what itmeans, Cause there's so many
people, like as I've walkedalongside them on their deathbed
, saying things like you know,how old will I be?
(19:46):
Will I be, you know, in mynineties Will I have I want to
be back when I was 32 orwhatever it is, and it's like,
oh, none of that will matter.
Like Christ, when he rose, hadscars on his body, and to us we
have these cosmetic proceduresto get rid of the scars.
So I think our way of seeingthings, of experiencing
(20:09):
ourselves, of knowing who Godcreated us to be, I think it'll
be so transformed, right andyeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I just think it's important to know that.
You bet it, mo.
The verse that I hold on to,also from Revelation, is just,
and every tear will be wipedaway.
I've shed plenty of tears in mylife and to me, tears are that
there will be no more of thatsense of loss, of that sense of
(20:39):
brokenness, and that we will berestored, we will be renewed,
and Jesus finally, as he metwith his disciples, while there
were scars, there was notweakness or brokenness, but
there was still the recognitionof what he had gone through.
So in that sense, we will take,but it wasn't a wound, it was a
(21:06):
scar, it had been healed, andso all of the wounds of our life
physically, emotionally will behealed.
And that is why the tears willbe wiped away, because we will
be healed and we will berestored and, whether that's 16
or 26 or 86 or however, weexperience that and I think it's
(21:26):
beyond us to understand that wewill be healed and we will be
in the presence of the God,whose love is beyond measure.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Absolutely so, though .
We will be with the body ofbelievers and in perfect union
with God.
We won't need things like amarriage necessarily, right, god
.
We won't need things like amarriage necessarily Right.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Absolutely, I love that.
So yeah, well, you may disagreewith that or you may be
troubled by that, so put that inthe comments and we can wrestle
with that with you as wecontinue to try to unpack God's
truth together.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, but if you would like to share, like this
podcast, if you think someonecan get something out of it,
please do so.
This is what it's about and wedo know this.
There is no alimony in heaven.
That's all we know.
And your dogs go to heaven.
We have one of those podcastsas well and, if you're confused,
still, we have a podcast onpurgatory, so check that out.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
And if you have other questions you want us to dig
into or unpack, please put thosein the comment line.
Send them in tounpackingtruthscom.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
To me the Protestant Reformation, martin Luther,
calling it back to the fact thatit's not about what we do to
get ourselves right with God.
It's that God sent Jesus, thatit's, as I like to say, the
arrows pointing down.
It's not what do I do to getourselves right with God.
It's that God sent Jesus, thatit's, as I like to say, the
arrows pointing down.
It's not what do I do to go upto God.
It's that God came down to us,that it's grace is at the heart
of it.
Great, we are saved by grace,through faith.
That's key theological.
Some other divisions withinChristian churches are maybe not
(22:58):
that essential things, butthat's what's formed some
denominations.
Some have been these revivalmovements.
Within that the church seems tohave gotten stayed or boring or
just sort of ritualistic.
And then the Holy Spirit birthsa revival movement to call
people back to a passionatefollowing of Jesus and not just
a perfunctory following of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
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