July 2, 2024 • 24 mins
✝️ Unpacking Truths: Episode 120: Purgatory
Pastors Kendall and Mo invite listeners to embark on a theological odyssey as they pull back the veil on the enigmatic realm of purgatory. With a dash of humor to lighten the gravity of the exploration, they share quirky musings on this transitional state before delving into its historical and scriptural foundations. The discussion reveals how traditions like Lutheran and Anglo-Catholic interpret purgatory through the lens of their distinct heritages. They dissect the Protestant Reformation's role in shaping modern views on texts like 2 Maccabees and unravel how beliefs about the living's influence on the afterlife have evolved over time. This episode promises a riveting blend of lighthearted conjectures and profound theological insights.
Listeners are challenged as the pastors probe the purgatorial fires thought to refine and transform souls on their journey to salvation. They navigate the thorny history of indulgences and their impact on the faithful, contrasting the problematic practice with the Catholic notion of the soul's voluntary quest for purity. The discussion takes a deep dive into grace's power to change individuals, moving beyond the idea of 'cheap grace' and considering what it means to actively participate in one's own sanctification. Inspired by the wisdom of C.S. Lewis and the Apostle Paul, the episode closes with reflections on daily choices and the nurturing role of community in spiritual growth. Tune in for an episode that offers not merely discourse but an invitation to contemplate the implications of beliefs on the path to holiness.
#TheologicalOdyssey #ExploringPurgatory #FaithJourney #SpiritualRefinement #HistoricalTheology #ProtestantReformation #GraceAndSanctification #CSLewisWisdom #CommunityInFaith #PathToHoliness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello friends, we're excited to jump into our
topic today.
It's a serious one, a deep one.
Some people have raised thequestion of how do we understand
purgatory and do we believethere's a purgatory or not?
So we're going to dive in andwe're going to get serious about
this one.
Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
And I'm Pastor Mo and we're Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
today, Everyone is seeking, and we're here to help
you find hope and power in God'sWord.
Before we get serious, let'sthink about this in our own
context.
Seriously, what do you envisionpurgatory to be like?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I think it is a spiritual gym, mo.
Spiritual gym, yeah, like withlots of weights or like
jazzercise.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, yeah, Are you doing Pilates in this gym?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
If that's what you need, that's what you're doing
Is there a reformer in yourstretched extra far.
I think there's definitely apersonal trainer.
Yeah, so what's your image?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I don't know.
Mine is being in the grocerystore and there is an extreme
couponer in front of me and it'sjust like I feel my soul being
refined, even when it happensnow.
So it just, but it never ends.
They just have coupons for daysand yeah, I think that would be
very refining to me.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
That would be refining to Mo, who's wanting to
get on with her life and makethings happen, and instead
having to wait in line.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I want to hear what their.
What is your purgatory, youridea of?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
purgatory.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Please send that into us.
I definitely want to hear this.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, mo, it's funny that you lift it up in that way,
because part of what you'repointing to is the idea.
One way is that purgatory isthis idea of this painful
process we have to go through.
And so let me just say, youknow, growing up I grew up in
the Lutheran church I neverheard purgatory mentioned.
(01:53):
I went to seminary.
We never talked about purgatorybecause that was something that
the Roman Catholics believed,and so I like, heard about it
tangentially, but never reallythought about it.
Heard about it, but I will tellyou.
And so when this topic came upfrom one of the listeners, I was
intrigued, because I have beendoing thinking about this idea
(02:14):
over the last couple of decadesas a pastor, and I'm actually
more drawn to the idea, not inthe way that a lot of people
often conceive of it, but in adifferent way.
And so it'll be good.
So why don't we talk about someof the historical roots first
and then talk, or where did you?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
want to go.
No, I was going to say, whichis interesting to me, that
you're kind of interested in it.
I come from an Episcopalbackground and so we're
Anglo-Catholic, so we do talkabout purgatory.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I pray for you often.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, so we do talk about purgatory, and I like the
idea, because I'm not sure I'llbe done cooking by the time I
leave this side.
No, so let's get into it.
And yeah, why don't you beginus with some?
Where does this come out of?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well it comes out of some.
Well, we both had come upon thereading in the Apocrypha from 2
Maccabees, chapter 12, where Ibelieve it's Judas Maccabees
says in verse 45, in his firmand devout conviction that all
God's faithful people wouldreceive a wonderful reward,
(03:16):
Judas made provision for a sin,offering to set free from their
sin those who had died.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, because there was a war and there were
soldiers that had died and whathe had found was some amulets
around their necks signifyingthat they trusted in God.
But, just in case, I have myrabbit's foot so I want to make
sure, just in case.
And he saw that and he was like, oh my goodness, they died
(03:44):
almost like a friend to God, butnot fully trusting in God, so
he didn't think their heartswere fully there.
And so, yeah, prayers,sacrifices, prayers on behalf of
those who've passed on.
So yeah, that's where that idea.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So and again Maccabees.
In my understanding that's partof the Apocrypha which has been
a part of the Roman CatholicBible, not a part of Protestant
Bibles.
At the Reformation they saidthey didn't feel that was core
canon and so they kept HebrewBible, Old Testament and New
Testament, but that Apocryphastuff in the middle discarded,
so that it really wasn't that.
(04:18):
I never grew up thinking of 2Maccabees as scripture, but
that's where.
But a lot of that idea, theidea of the resurrection, which
I agree with, grew up in sort ofbetween Old Testament and New
Testament, but then also thisidea of us being able to.
(04:38):
So there's a couple ideas withpurgatory.
One was Judas Maccabees talkingabout that.
We in this world can influencethose who have died, their
relationship with God andthey're working out their
salvation.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, prayers on behalf of the dead, which is a
right where, when we look atMaccabees, didn't Martin Luther
actually just throw it in theback of the Bible Because it was
in the original Bible?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I don't even remember .
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, it was in the original Bible of 397 AD and
then when it was ratified by thePope in 401, it was still there
.
It wasn't until later about1100, that Martin Luther moved
it to the back, according to thehistory that I had researched,
but then it was totally justremoved altogether around the
(05:33):
1600s and made into theApocrypha.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, but now we're talking more Apocrypha than
Purgatory, so why don't we get?
Back Because maybe that'sanother topic.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I know.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And we can also talk about the deuterocanonical works
or the pseudepigraphy at somepoint.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Lots of fun topics, I just don't want to throw the
baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So let's get back to purgatory.
So the idea of purgatory isthat there is this place that we
go after we die, where there issome work that happens to us or
some penance that we do, orsome transformation that happens
to us that gets us ready forthe full experience of heaven.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And it's conceived of differently.
The word purgatory literallycomes from the Latin word purgo,
which means to clean or tocleanse to clean or to cleanse,
and so some of it is.
And here's where the, I think,some of the danger from a
Protestant side.
If it is all about salvation bygrace, it's all of what Jesus
(06:37):
has done for us, then it can'tbe about well, jesus didn't
fully cleanse me of my sins orforgive me of my sins.
Now I've got to work a littlebit of it out and as a good
Lutheran Christian I could nevergo along with that.
It's not that I'm making up mysalvation or I'm having to earn
my salvation.
(06:58):
It can't be about earning itall, because anything that is
gets in the way of that, all ofmyself, my rightness with God,
is anything but a gift from Godthrough Jesus to me is wrong,
verboten anathema wrong.
Grace is a gift, so if it's notabout earning salvation, is
(07:23):
there still a place for it ornot?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Well, and I'm not so purgatory.
I know a lot of people look atit, and rightfully so, because
there were some things likeindulgences being sold in order
to buy your family member who'spassed into heaven.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Do you know the classic line that Tetzel said,
that Luther just challenged he?
Goes a coin in the copper ringsand a soul from purgatory
springs was the idea, and that'show they were selling these
indulgences back at that timethat you could buy.
And of course the money went tobuild St Peter's Cathedral in
(08:01):
Rome.
That it was, and Luther justsaw it as the pope extracting
money from the poor people inGermany to build his cathedral
and he was saying you're buyingtheir freedom from purgatory.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Oh yeah, you're buying their freedom from
purgatory.
Oh yeah, but anunderstanding—so I think a more
Catholic understanding ofpurgatory is— and one that I was
taught was that when we die andwe're face-to-face in the space
of entering the kingdom ofheaven, right, with such love,
with such truth, that if we die,not in the right space in our
(08:36):
heart, right that we, our soul,will want to do what is needed
in order to purify ourselves, inorder to ready ourselves to
enter into the presence of God.
And this comes out of differentscripture right, it comes out
of Matthew 5, 45, be perfect andwhole, as your Father in heaven
is whole.
It comes out of Revelation 21,27.
Nothing impure or unclean canenter the kingdom of heaven.
(09:00):
And also out of 1 Corinthians,3, 13 to 15, where they speak
into us being refined in a fire.
Right, like being tested beforewe enter into the kingdom of
heaven.
And so it comes out of thesespaces where what does it mean
to be made?
Right Because we can pass away.
(09:20):
Let's say I'm a believer, Ibelieve Jesus saved me, and yet
I'm living in a lot of sin.
Right Like I'm extorting peoplein my workplace, I'm using
people, I'm not faithful in mymarriage.
I'm, let's say I'm just doingwhat I want to do, living a
really selfish life, but I'mlike I love Jesus simply, but
(09:41):
I'm not really living that outand my heart isn't being
transformed or made new.
Um, it's kind of that's wherethis idea of cheap grace comes
in, right, like, but it's okaybecause thank you, jesus, for
what you did on the cross.
You're like a pretty littleblanket that gets thrown under
over my sinful life that youknow is.
(10:07):
And then all of a sudden I getto enter, I'm entering into the
kingdom of heaven, but I'm kindof dirty, like meaning I'm
reminded of the wedding banquet,right, and where he had on the
wrong outfit and so he was likecast out.
Well, this is almost reverse,where I wouldn't want to enter
into this beautiful weddingbanquet if I'm in rags and I
think I realize I'm in rags whenI pass on right.
(10:27):
It's that space of seeingeverything in truth and in God's
truth, and so I would want toturn and enter this space to be
purified.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
That was my upbringing understanding.
Okay, no, and I like that more.
The definition I one time heardof cheap grace is I love to sin
.
God likes to forgive.
It's a perfect arrangement,yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, nice, and that is really sort of that cheap
grace.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
It's just like I keep doing what I do and you keep
forgiving.
Thank you, God and there issomething, as Dietrich
Bonhoeffer said, that the hugebane of the Christian church has
been cheap grace, that wepreach the forgiveness of sins
without the transformation ofthe sinner, without the
repentance of the sinner,without the transformation of
the sinner, without therepentance of the sinner.
And so for me, the way I hadnot been taught purgatory, but
(11:28):
the way I sort of picked it upculturally, was this idea that
purgatory was this place, thatif I had done more bad in my
life than good or sort of whatyou described a lot of bad stuff
in my life but I came to Jesus,that I needed to make up that
deficit, there was still a debtto be paid.
And so there was some sort oflooking backwards, some debt
that I had to pay, somepunishment that I had to go
(11:49):
through.
I was saved, I was going toeventually be with Christ, but I
had to pay some of this debt,which that doesn't make sense to
me at all.
No, because that to me goesagainst grace, that it I've
(12:18):
quoted it before.
But in Rick Warren's book thePurpose Driven Life, I think one
of his first lines is God ismore concerned with the shaping
of our character than ourcomfort, because God is trying
to transform us, that Jesusdidn't say just believe in me.
He said come and follow me, betransformed.
(12:41):
And one of the dangers, I think, is this sense of like I just
want the forgiveness, but I justwant to keep living as I am.
And what I have come to see isthat I think Jesus called to me
and we often talk about this inour sermons that the abundant
life involves living into thefullness of what God intended.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
But sometimes living into where Jesus called me isn't
pleasant.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Oh no, it isn't comfortable Sometimes.
I mean you could say almost allthe time.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Well, yeah, I mean, I think there is some good that
comes out of it, when I reallydo forgive and I don't hold on
to the judgment and that, that Idon't hold on to grudges and
those things and I truly let goof that.
So I think there's good, butsome of it is just hard.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I think almost all of it is hard, like there
are blessings to be received,but not without work, like all
of it's work, if I mean, if I'mfully honest like I don't get to
spend my money the way I wantto spend it, I don't get to
spend my time the way I want tospend it, I don't get to utilize
my natural, god-given talentsto make my life just better.
(13:48):
I have to be thinking aboutother people all the time.
It is a dying of self,literally, and in the process of
death.
It's painful, it's hard, butyet there's beauty that comes
out of it, there's incrediblethings that come out of it and
blessings, but I don't thinkit's a journey at all that is
not hard, painful or takes work.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and I think that for me is some of that
journeying with Jesus and someof that hard stuff of letting go
of what Kendall wants in livingand do how Jesus envisions my
life, that I think that you knowthat great verse from Romans 12
, do not be conformed to thisworld, but be transformed by the
renewing of your mind.
That I think Jesus' call to usis a call to transformation.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And so for me, the way I kind of look at purgatory,
that's where I use the gym,where I have come to be drawn to
this idea that God is wantingto transform Kendall, that Jesus
wants to transform Kendall andhe's going to do some of that
work.
As much as I'm open to that onthis side of eternity.
But if what still needs to betransformed is going to have to
(14:59):
happen at some point and somehowit feels like if there isn't a
transformation that needs tohappen for Kendall, then why do
all the discipleship stuff?
I mean, if it really is at mydeath I get the magic Jesus pill
and then Kendall's made perfectin all ways, well then, why
work hard at it now?
Let me just wait until I getthe magic pill and get it at the
(15:21):
end, and then I'm good.
I don't think that's what it is.
I think our salvation is a giftto us, but that salvation comes
as a desire to transform me.
That it's the sanctificationstuff.
It's not justification that I'mworking out, it's the
sanctification of Kendall, themaking holy of Kendall, and I
think that either has to happenin this life or beyond this life
(15:44):
.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
No, absolutely, and I mean purgatory, has always been
plan B, right.
So like plan A is that you'redoing this work now, like here
and now You're allowing God tostretch you, open your heart,
make you new in different ways.
Yet you know things happen Likewhat if you were in a car
accident and you were like youbelieved in Jesus and God and
(16:08):
all that, but like you wereliving in sin actively, like you
were wrestling with that, likethere are moments that we
haven't fully, um, I think,become refined or made into the
likeness of Christ.
Right, and that's our goal andthat's our mission and that's
what we've been all called to do, is to do that.
(16:29):
It's the whole baptism, that'swhat our symbol is too dying to
self, rising to new life inChrist, looking like Jesus, like
in all that we do, and yet wedon't always achieve that
without losing our life on thisside first.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, you know, it's part of where I think I started
to get drawn to this idea was onCS Lewis's book the Great
Divorce.
That's a good one it really is,and I've lifted it up here
before, where CS Lewis presentsthis in some of the language.
I started reading it again justto get it fresh in my head here
(17:06):
, but some of the language is alittle 80 years ago language for
folks to get around.
But he basically imagines thisbus ride from hell to heaven,
where someone, all of thesespirits in hell, have the choice
of going to be in the realnessof God's presence.
Yeah, but they get there andthey don't like it.
(17:27):
Yeah, because it's about givingup their own priorities, their
own way of wanting to look atthe world, to live in the
presence of God's way of doingthe world.
And so there is thistransformation that has to
happen and they don't like itbecause.
And so at some level part ofwhat I also love that CS Lewis
gets around in this envisioningof it it's not that God judges
(17:52):
some people and says, well, youdidn't believe in the right way,
so you're going to hell andyou're going to heaven.
That it's about that.
It's really our choice thateither we are open to the
transformation God wants to doin us that draws us into God's
presence, or we are rejectingthat life of love.
That it's about God and others.
(18:12):
I want it to be about me, andthat's what hell is in this book
is it's all about me.
But that idea of thetransformation of it comes
through in the Great Divorcethat just resonated in me and
made sense and gets us aroundthis how can a loving God
condemn some people to hell?
Well, cs Lewis goes, goddoesn't.
They're choosing it themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Right and see, and in that I love that book too by CS
Lewis.
And yet, and I think too thatreminds me of what it's like
here though, on Earth, like wecontinuously do, we choose hell
for ourselves, right by notchoosing what is greater, taking
, you know, not going throughthe narrow path, but the wide
gate.
That's easy and self-serving inthe moment.
(18:57):
Yet everything costs something,right.
And so you know, I love sweets,I love ice cream, I want to eat
it all the time, I want to eatit for breakfast, I want to
order on dates, on dates, I wantto order my dessert first.
And you know what?
I'm old enough I've started todo just that.
I don't care what kind of looksI get, but the point, the
(19:17):
reality, is, if I do that, I'mgoing to be morbidly obese.
You're going to have to roll meout around Like.
That's just the truth.
So it's many times, even thoughthings taste good and they look
good and we enjoy them in themoment, there are consequences
and God's ways aren't our ways,and we don't even begin to
understand some of how ourchoices impact our lives or the
(19:41):
lives of others, even if theylook good.
You know, culturally or withinour family systems and
understandings, and that's whyGod's ways, you know they're
hard and yet they're good, andthat's why we need the body Like
we need each other for thatyeah.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, you know, as we were thinking about this topic,
I was just drawn to Philippians, chapter two, as Paul was
writing to this community thathe loved and he says, therefore,
my beloved, just as you havealways obeyed me, not only in my
presence but more so in myabsence, work out your salvation
.
With fear and trembling that heunderstood salvation was a gift
(20:18):
given from Jesus, but there'sstill a working out of it, in
the working out of it inside ofKendall, that of the beginning,
the transformation of me to bethe loving person God intended
to me to be at the beginning.
And that working out is eithergoing to happen here or it's
going to happen at some point.
And that's where, for me,purgatory is.
(20:40):
It's not about making up for mysins, no, it's about getting me
fully in shape, getting mefully in Jesus' shape, getting
me transformed into what I hopepeople get glimpses of now, of
Jesus shining through me, butthey don't get it all the time.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You know what I'm realizing?
We're going to get a lot ofhate emails by all the
Protestants I know.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I know they're going to be like they are the worst
Protestant pastors ever talkingabout purgatory and the space of
, but for me it does come out tothis discipleship, this
transformation this walking withJesus.
Jesus invited the disciples tofollow him, not simply well to
(21:23):
observe him, but to betransformed by him.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Right.
And when Christianity isn'tjust this label, right, it's not
just this club or this thing webelong to because we're
supposed to and we actually takethe time to get to know God and
we are touched by God.
I don't know one person thathas been touched by the presence
of God somehow in and throughanother person, or through their
(21:46):
scripture reading or just inprayer, and not then desired to
draw closer and to look, want tobe like Christ and want to do
what God wants them to do.
And so you're right Journey inthis side or the next.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And Mo, I think that's right, and yet I think we
also get tired doing it attimes.
Oh, absolutely, mo, I thinkthat's right, and yet I think we
also get tired doing it attimes.
Oh absolutely, and so I thinkyou're right.
Discipleship isn't justclimbing a ladder to be better,
it is.
I want the life that Jesuswants for me, but sometimes that
old Adam inside of me, that oldsinful stuff, just wants to
just make it not to have tofocus on that and just serve my
(22:25):
own ego, and so I think that'sjust the ongoing work God is
trying to do in our lives.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, you know what?
We couldn't answer thisperfectly, but you probably
could.
Why don't you let us know toour listeners and those watching
us your ideas on purgatory, oryour understanding, or what were
you taught about this place andspace after death, yet before
full union with God?
We'd love to hear that.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, but don't call our bishops and tell us we
should be fired and disproct.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
No, it's stitches.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Snitches get stitches .
Accepting purgatory might be anidea Next time.
On Unpacking Truths, what doyou think what are some of the
assumptions that you have aboutmarried couples?
What do you think that are outthere, mo?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, like I mentioned earlier, definitely
that in the church, but everyoneputs on.
I mean I wish they didn't puton the happy face, but often
right.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Actually I like that people put on the happy face.
I mean, we got to have someplaces to be real, but I don't
want everyone.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
But I get it because I've been, I've snapped off on
my kids in the car and then I'mlike smiling the minute.
Hey everybody how you doing theminute you walk into church and
then you're like grinding yourteeth at your kids.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thanks for tuning in.
If anything we said brought upany questions or ideas, let's
keep the conversation going inthe comments below or email us
at unpackingtruths atlocchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we
can continue helping peopleunpack God's truth for their
lives.
Well, hello friends, we're excited to jump into our
topic today.
It's a serious one, a deep one.
Some people have raised thequestion of how do we understand
purgatory and do we believethere's a purgatory or not?
So we're going to dive in andwe're going to get serious about
this one.
Hi, I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
And I'm Pastor Mo and we're Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Where we unpack God's Word and God's truth for life.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
today, Everyone is seeking, and we're here to help
you find hope and power in God'sWord.
Before we get serious, let'sthink about this in our own
context.
Seriously, what do you envisionpurgatory to be like?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I think it is a spiritual gym, mo.
Spiritual gym, yeah, like withlots of weights or like
jazzercise.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, yeah, Are you doing Pilates in this gym?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
If that's what you need, that's what you're doing
Is there a reformer in yourstretched extra far.
I think there's definitely apersonal trainer.
Yeah, so what's your image?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I don't know.
Mine is being in the grocerystore and there is an extreme
couponer in front of me and it'sjust like I feel my soul being
refined, even when it happensnow.
So it just, but it never ends.
They just have coupons for daysand yeah, I think that would be
very refining to me.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
That would be refining to Mo, who's wanting to
get on with her life and makethings happen, and instead
having to wait in line.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I want to hear what their.
What is your purgatory, youridea of?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
purgatory.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Please send that into us.
I definitely want to hear this.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, mo, it's funny that you lift it up in that way,
because part of what you'repointing to is the idea.
One way is that purgatory isthis idea of this painful
process we have to go through.
And so let me just say, youknow, growing up I grew up in
the Lutheran church I neverheard purgatory mentioned.
(01:53):
I went to seminary.
We never talked about purgatorybecause that was something that
the Roman Catholics believed,and so I like, heard about it
tangentially, but never reallythought about it.
Heard about it, but I will tellyou.
And so when this topic came upfrom one of the listeners, I was
intrigued, because I have beendoing thinking about this idea
(02:14):
over the last couple of decadesas a pastor, and I'm actually
more drawn to the idea, not inthe way that a lot of people
often conceive of it, but in adifferent way.
And so it'll be good.
So why don't we talk about someof the historical roots first
and then talk, or where did you?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
want to go.
No, I was going to say, whichis interesting to me, that
you're kind of interested in it.
I come from an Episcopalbackground and so we're
Anglo-Catholic, so we do talkabout purgatory.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I pray for you often.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, so we do talk about purgatory, and I like the
idea, because I'm not sure I'llbe done cooking by the time I
leave this side.
No, so let's get into it.
And yeah, why don't you beginus with some?
Where does this come out of?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well it comes out of some.
Well, we both had come upon thereading in the Apocrypha from 2
Maccabees, chapter 12, where Ibelieve it's Judas Maccabees
says in verse 45, in his firmand devout conviction that all
God's faithful people wouldreceive a wonderful reward,
(03:16):
Judas made provision for a sin,offering to set free from their
sin those who had died.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, because there was a war and there were
soldiers that had died and whathe had found was some amulets
around their necks signifyingthat they trusted in God.
But, just in case, I have myrabbit's foot so I want to make
sure, just in case.
And he saw that and he was like, oh my goodness, they died
(03:44):
almost like a friend to God, butnot fully trusting in God, so
he didn't think their heartswere fully there.
And so, yeah, prayers,sacrifices, prayers on behalf of
those who've passed on.
So yeah, that's where that idea.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So and again Maccabees.
In my understanding that's partof the Apocrypha which has been
a part of the Roman CatholicBible, not a part of Protestant
Bibles.
At the Reformation they saidthey didn't feel that was core
canon and so they kept HebrewBible, Old Testament and New
Testament, but that Apocryphastuff in the middle discarded,
so that it really wasn't that.
(04:18):
I never grew up thinking of 2Maccabees as scripture, but
that's where.
But a lot of that idea, theidea of the resurrection, which
I agree with, grew up in sort ofbetween Old Testament and New
Testament, but then also thisidea of us being able to.
(04:38):
So there's a couple ideas withpurgatory.
One was Judas Maccabees talkingabout that.
We in this world can influencethose who have died, their
relationship with God andthey're working out their
salvation.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, prayers on behalf of the dead, which is a
right where, when we look atMaccabees, didn't Martin Luther
actually just throw it in theback of the Bible Because it was
in the original Bible?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I don't even remember .
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, it was in the original Bible of 397 AD and
then when it was ratified by thePope in 401, it was still there
.
It wasn't until later about1100, that Martin Luther moved
it to the back, according to thehistory that I had researched,
but then it was totally justremoved altogether around the
(05:33):
1600s and made into theApocrypha.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, but now we're talking more Apocrypha than
Purgatory, so why don't we get?
Back Because maybe that'sanother topic.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I know.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And we can also talk about the deuterocanonical works
or the pseudepigraphy at somepoint.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Lots of fun topics, I just don't want to throw the
baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
So let's get back to purgatory.
So the idea of purgatory isthat there is this place that we
go after we die, where there issome work that happens to us or
some penance that we do, orsome transformation that happens
to us that gets us ready forthe full experience of heaven.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And it's conceived of differently.
The word purgatory literallycomes from the Latin word purgo,
which means to clean or tocleanse to clean or to cleanse,
and so some of it is.
And here's where the, I think,some of the danger from a
Protestant side.
If it is all about salvation bygrace, it's all of what Jesus
(06:37):
has done for us, then it can'tbe about well, jesus didn't
fully cleanse me of my sins orforgive me of my sins.
Now I've got to work a littlebit of it out and as a good
Lutheran Christian I could nevergo along with that.
It's not that I'm making up mysalvation or I'm having to earn
my salvation.
(06:58):
It can't be about earning itall, because anything that is
gets in the way of that, all ofmyself, my rightness with God,
is anything but a gift from Godthrough Jesus to me is wrong,
verboten anathema wrong.
Grace is a gift, so if it's notabout earning salvation, is
(07:23):
there still a place for it ornot?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Well, and I'm not so purgatory.
I know a lot of people look atit, and rightfully so, because
there were some things likeindulgences being sold in order
to buy your family member who'spassed into heaven.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Do you know the classic line that Tetzel said,
that Luther just challenged he?
Goes a coin in the copper ringsand a soul from purgatory
springs was the idea, and that'show they were selling these
indulgences back at that timethat you could buy.
And of course the money went tobuild St Peter's Cathedral in
(08:01):
Rome.
That it was, and Luther justsaw it as the pope extracting
money from the poor people inGermany to build his cathedral
and he was saying you're buyingtheir freedom from purgatory.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Oh yeah, you're buying their freedom from
purgatory.
Oh yeah, but anunderstanding—so I think a more
Catholic understanding ofpurgatory is— and one that I was
taught was that when we die andwe're face-to-face in the space
of entering the kingdom ofheaven, right, with such love,
with such truth, that if we die,not in the right space in our
(08:36):
heart, right that we, our soul,will want to do what is needed
in order to purify ourselves, inorder to ready ourselves to
enter into the presence of God.
And this comes out of differentscripture right, it comes out
of Matthew 5, 45, be perfect andwhole, as your Father in heaven
is whole.
It comes out of Revelation 21,27.
Nothing impure or unclean canenter the kingdom of heaven.
(09:00):
And also out of 1 Corinthians,3, 13 to 15, where they speak
into us being refined in a fire.
Right, like being tested beforewe enter into the kingdom of
heaven.
And so it comes out of thesespaces where what does it mean
to be made?
Right Because we can pass away.
(09:20):
Let's say I'm a believer, Ibelieve Jesus saved me, and yet
I'm living in a lot of sin.
Right Like I'm extorting peoplein my workplace, I'm using
people, I'm not faithful in mymarriage.
I'm, let's say I'm just doingwhat I want to do, living a
really selfish life, but I'mlike I love Jesus simply, but
(09:41):
I'm not really living that outand my heart isn't being
transformed or made new.
Um, it's kind of that's wherethis idea of cheap grace comes
in, right, like, but it's okaybecause thank you, jesus, for
what you did on the cross.
You're like a pretty littleblanket that gets thrown under
over my sinful life that youknow is.
(10:07):
And then all of a sudden I getto enter, I'm entering into the
kingdom of heaven, but I'm kindof dirty, like meaning I'm
reminded of the wedding banquet,right, and where he had on the
wrong outfit and so he was likecast out.
Well, this is almost reverse,where I wouldn't want to enter
into this beautiful weddingbanquet if I'm in rags and I
think I realize I'm in rags whenI pass on right.
(10:27):
It's that space of seeingeverything in truth and in God's
truth, and so I would want toturn and enter this space to be
purified.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
That was my upbringing understanding.
Okay, no, and I like that more.
The definition I one time heardof cheap grace is I love to sin
.
God likes to forgive.
It's a perfect arrangement,yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, nice, and that is really sort of that cheap
grace.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
It's just like I keep doing what I do and you keep
forgiving.
Thank you, God and there issomething, as Dietrich
Bonhoeffer said, that the hugebane of the Christian church has
been cheap grace, that wepreach the forgiveness of sins
without the transformation ofthe sinner, without the
repentance of the sinner,without the transformation of
the sinner, without therepentance of the sinner.
And so for me, the way I hadnot been taught purgatory, but
(11:28):
the way I sort of picked it upculturally, was this idea that
purgatory was this place, thatif I had done more bad in my
life than good or sort of whatyou described a lot of bad stuff
in my life but I came to Jesus,that I needed to make up that
deficit, there was still a debtto be paid.
And so there was some sort oflooking backwards, some debt
that I had to pay, somepunishment that I had to go
(11:49):
through.
I was saved, I was going toeventually be with Christ, but I
had to pay some of this debt,which that doesn't make sense to
me at all.
No, because that to me goesagainst grace, that it I've
(12:18):
quoted it before.
But in Rick Warren's book thePurpose Driven Life, I think one
of his first lines is God ismore concerned with the shaping
of our character than ourcomfort, because God is trying
to transform us, that Jesusdidn't say just believe in me.
He said come and follow me, betransformed.
(12:41):
And one of the dangers, I think, is this sense of like I just
want the forgiveness, but I justwant to keep living as I am.
And what I have come to see isthat I think Jesus called to me
and we often talk about this inour sermons that the abundant
life involves living into thefullness of what God intended.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
But sometimes living into where Jesus called me isn't
pleasant.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Oh no, it isn't comfortable Sometimes.
I mean you could say almost allthe time.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Well, yeah, I mean, I think there is some good that
comes out of it, when I reallydo forgive and I don't hold on
to the judgment and that, that Idon't hold on to grudges and
those things and I truly let goof that.
So I think there's good, butsome of it is just hard.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I think almost all of it is hard, like there
are blessings to be received,but not without work, like all
of it's work, if I mean, if I'mfully honest like I don't get to
spend my money the way I wantto spend it, I don't get to
spend my time the way I want tospend it, I don't get to utilize
my natural, god-given talentsto make my life just better.
(13:48):
I have to be thinking aboutother people all the time.
It is a dying of self,literally, and in the process of
death.
It's painful, it's hard, butyet there's beauty that comes
out of it, there's incrediblethings that come out of it and
blessings, but I don't thinkit's a journey at all that is
not hard, painful or takes work.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and I think that for me is some of that
journeying with Jesus and someof that hard stuff of letting go
of what Kendall wants in livingand do how Jesus envisions my
life, that I think that you knowthat great verse from Romans 12
, do not be conformed to thisworld, but be transformed by the
renewing of your mind.
That I think Jesus' call to usis a call to transformation.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And so for me, the way I kind of look at purgatory,
that's where I use the gym,where I have come to be drawn to
this idea that God is wantingto transform Kendall, that Jesus
wants to transform Kendall andhe's going to do some of that
work.
As much as I'm open to that onthis side of eternity.
But if what still needs to betransformed is going to have to
(14:59):
happen at some point and somehowit feels like if there isn't a
transformation that needs tohappen for Kendall, then why do
all the discipleship stuff?
I mean, if it really is at mydeath I get the magic Jesus pill
and then Kendall's made perfectin all ways, well then, why
work hard at it now?
Let me just wait until I getthe magic pill and get it at the
(15:21):
end, and then I'm good.
I don't think that's what it is.
I think our salvation is a giftto us, but that salvation comes
as a desire to transform me.
That it's the sanctificationstuff.
It's not justification that I'mworking out, it's the
sanctification of Kendall, themaking holy of Kendall, and I
think that either has to happenin this life or beyond this life
(15:44):
.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
No, absolutely, and I mean purgatory, has always been
plan B, right.
So like plan A is that you'redoing this work now, like here
and now You're allowing God tostretch you, open your heart,
make you new in different ways.
Yet you know things happen Likewhat if you were in a car
accident and you were like youbelieved in Jesus and God and
(16:08):
all that, but like you wereliving in sin actively, like you
were wrestling with that, likethere are moments that we
haven't fully, um, I think,become refined or made into the
likeness of Christ.
Right, and that's our goal andthat's our mission and that's
what we've been all called to do, is to do that.
(16:29):
It's the whole baptism, that'swhat our symbol is too dying to
self, rising to new life inChrist, looking like Jesus, like
in all that we do, and yet wedon't always achieve that
without losing our life on thisside first.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, you know, it's part of where I think I started
to get drawn to this idea was onCS Lewis's book the Great
Divorce.
That's a good one it really is,and I've lifted it up here
before, where CS Lewis presentsthis in some of the language.
I started reading it again justto get it fresh in my head here
(17:06):
, but some of the language is alittle 80 years ago language for
folks to get around.
But he basically imagines thisbus ride from hell to heaven,
where someone, all of thesespirits in hell, have the choice
of going to be in the realnessof God's presence.
Yeah, but they get there andthey don't like it.
(17:27):
Yeah, because it's about givingup their own priorities, their
own way of wanting to look atthe world, to live in the
presence of God's way of doingthe world.
And so there is thistransformation that has to
happen and they don't like itbecause.
And so at some level part ofwhat I also love that CS Lewis
gets around in this envisioningof it it's not that God judges
(17:52):
some people and says, well, youdidn't believe in the right way,
so you're going to hell andyou're going to heaven.
That it's about that.
It's really our choice thateither we are open to the
transformation God wants to doin us that draws us into God's
presence, or we are rejectingthat life of love.
That it's about God and others.
(18:12):
I want it to be about me, andthat's what hell is in this book
is it's all about me.
But that idea of thetransformation of it comes
through in the Great Divorcethat just resonated in me and
made sense and gets us aroundthis how can a loving God
condemn some people to hell?
Well, cs Lewis goes, goddoesn't.
They're choosing it themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Right and see, and in that I love that book too by CS
Lewis.
And yet, and I think too thatreminds me of what it's like
here though, on Earth, like wecontinuously do, we choose hell
for ourselves, right by notchoosing what is greater, taking
, you know, not going throughthe narrow path, but the wide
gate.
That's easy and self-serving inthe moment.
(18:57):
Yet everything costs something,right.
And so you know, I love sweets,I love ice cream, I want to eat
it all the time, I want to eatit for breakfast, I want to
order on dates, on dates, I wantto order my dessert first.
And you know what?
I'm old enough I've started todo just that.
I don't care what kind of looksI get, but the point, the
(19:17):
reality, is, if I do that, I'mgoing to be morbidly obese.
You're going to have to roll meout around Like.
That's just the truth.
So it's many times, even thoughthings taste good and they look
good and we enjoy them in themoment, there are consequences
and God's ways aren't our ways,and we don't even begin to
understand some of how ourchoices impact our lives or the
(19:41):
lives of others, even if theylook good.
You know, culturally or withinour family systems and
understandings, and that's whyGod's ways, you know they're
hard and yet they're good, andthat's why we need the body Like
we need each other for thatyeah.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, you know, as we were thinking about this topic,
I was just drawn to Philippians, chapter two, as Paul was
writing to this community thathe loved and he says, therefore,
my beloved, just as you havealways obeyed me, not only in my
presence but more so in myabsence, work out your salvation
.
With fear and trembling that heunderstood salvation was a gift
(20:18):
given from Jesus, but there'sstill a working out of it, in
the working out of it inside ofKendall, that of the beginning,
the transformation of me to bethe loving person God intended
to me to be at the beginning.
And that working out is eithergoing to happen here or it's
going to happen at some point.
And that's where, for me,purgatory is.
(20:40):
It's not about making up for mysins, no, it's about getting me
fully in shape, getting mefully in Jesus' shape, getting
me transformed into what I hopepeople get glimpses of now, of
Jesus shining through me, butthey don't get it all the time.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You know what I'm realizing?
We're going to get a lot ofhate emails by all the
Protestants I know.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I know they're going to be like they are the worst
Protestant pastors ever talkingabout purgatory and the space of
, but for me it does come out tothis discipleship, this
transformation this walking withJesus.
Jesus invited the disciples tofollow him, not simply well to
(21:23):
observe him, but to betransformed by him.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Right.
And when Christianity isn'tjust this label, right, it's not
just this club or this thing webelong to because we're
supposed to and we actually takethe time to get to know God and
we are touched by God.
I don't know one person thathas been touched by the presence
of God somehow in and throughanother person, or through their
(21:46):
scripture reading or just inprayer, and not then desired to
draw closer and to look, want tobe like Christ and want to do
what God wants them to do.
And so you're right Journey inthis side or the next.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And Mo, I think that's right, and yet I think we
also get tired doing it attimes.
Oh, absolutely, mo, I thinkthat's right, and yet I think we
also get tired doing it attimes.
Oh absolutely, and so I thinkyou're right.
Discipleship isn't justclimbing a ladder to be better,
it is.
I want the life that Jesuswants for me, but sometimes that
old Adam inside of me, that oldsinful stuff, just wants to
just make it not to have tofocus on that and just serve my
(22:25):
own ego, and so I think that'sjust the ongoing work God is
trying to do in our lives.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, you know what?
We couldn't answer thisperfectly, but you probably
could.
Why don't you let us know toour listeners and those watching
us your ideas on purgatory, oryour understanding, or what were
you taught about this place andspace after death, yet before
full union with God?
We'd love to hear that.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, but don't call our bishops and tell us we
should be fired and disproct.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
No, it's stitches.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Snitches get stitches .
Accepting purgatory might be anidea Next time.
On Unpacking Truths, what doyou think what are some of the
assumptions that you have aboutmarried couples?
What do you think that are outthere, mo?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Well, like I mentioned earlier, definitely
that in the church, but everyoneputs on.
I mean I wish they didn't puton the happy face, but often
right.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Actually I like that people put on the happy face.
I mean, we got to have someplaces to be real, but I don't
want everyone.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
But I get it because I've been, I've snapped off on
my kids in the car and then I'mlike smiling the minute.
Hey everybody how you doing theminute you walk into church and
then you're like grinding yourteeth at your kids.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thanks for tuning in.
If anything we said brought upany questions or ideas, let's
keep the conversation going inthe comments below or email us
at unpackingtruths atlocchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
And don't forget to like, share and subscribe so we
can continue helping peopleunpack God's truth for their
lives.
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