Have you ever wondered how the local church can effectively impact global missions? Join us for an insightful discussion with Mark Tatlock (President of The Master's Academy International and Elder at Grace Community Church) where he shares his inspiring journey from his roots in a pastor's home to becoming a key leader in global church development. Tune in to discover how his time at the Master's College under John MacArthur's mentorship fueled his passion for fusing education, discipleship, and missions.
Explore the fascinating story behind Grace Community Church's outreach efforts which began with the fall of the Soviet Union in 1992. Mark reveals how the church responded to Ukrainian pastors' requests for help in training leaders, leading to the creation of seminary-level training programs across the globe. Learn about the evolution of these efforts into The Master's Academy International, an organization committed to providing pastors with high-quality theological education and resources while honoring the leadership and invitation of local churches. This segment highlights the significance of humility, service, and the church's collective effort to support global evangelism.
What does it take for a local church to become a sending church? We discuss the transformative journey of mature churches and the exciting development of national churches sending their own members for missions. By integrating a biblical theology of missions into regular teaching and creating a church culture actively engaged in cross-cultural evangelistic efforts, churches can align their local ministry with global missions. Hear about the organizational structure of Grace Ministries International and the strategic support for missionaries, culminating in a more sustainable and culturally attuned approach to global evangelism. Tune in to be inspired by real-life stories of church transformation and the power of sanctified believers living out the gospel.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
In Revelation 7, john shares his vision of heaven
with members from every tribe,tongue, people and language
standing in the throne roombefore the Lamb.
Yet today there are still over7,000 unreached people groups
around the world.
For the last six years, myfamily and friends have been on
a journey to find, vet and fundthe task remaining.
(00:28):
Come journey with us to theends of the earth as we share
the supernatural stories of Godat work for the men and women he
has called to reach theunreached.
Hello friends, dustin Elliotthere, your host with the
Unreached podcast and veryexcited to be in the studio
today.
Mark Tatlock, with the MastersAcademy International and Grace
(00:52):
Community Church out inCalifornia is with us.
Help me welcome Mark, mark.
We're so excited to have youtoday.
Thank you, dustin, it's greatto be with you.
Okay, well, let's start with alittle bit of your story.
How did you get into being inthe church, being involved as a
pastor, as an elder, as a churchleader and really just one of
the key people globally trainingand equipping pastors for the
(01:16):
church?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, thank you.
I grew up in the home of apastor and I would say not just
a pastor, a true evangelist.
So my home life, my family life, my dad's example he's one of
those guys who never met astranger, didn't share the
gospel with them.
So I'm really thankful for thatheritage.
It doesn't mean.
As a young child I appreciatedthat I had to grow in my own
(01:39):
faith and maturity to understandthe priority of God for his
people, to be a testimony forChrist in every walk of life.
And that took place when I wasin college.
I was attending the master'scollege.
Matter of fact, it had justbecome the master's college John
MacArthur was appointed thepresident.
Prior to that I'd been LosAngeles Baptist College and a
(02:01):
wonderful school, had a richhistory, sound doctrine.
But when John MacArthur becamethe president he set into the
culture of a Christian liberalarts now university, a
commitment to equip and trainmen and women who would be
committed to the local churchwith a global vision.
And you expect that in a Biblecollege, but maybe not so much
(02:27):
in a liberal arts institution.
But what that did is it tookevery discipline, whether it was
business or the health sciencesor journalism, communication,
whatever major that was, and putit in the larger context of the
unfolding of God's redemptiveplan, and asking every student
in their time at the universitywhat's your place?
(02:47):
How do you become a steward ofyour calling and vocation?
And that just became anembedded part of the culture for
every graduate, and whetherthey're serving abroad or in a
local church, I would say whatcharacterizes graduates of the
Master's University is thatglobal vision and a commitment
(03:08):
to participate locally andglobally in that endeavor.
And so that's been a passion.
I graduated, was going to go tothe mission field, had been
invited to go into the Ukraineto be part of a new ministry,
actually where our firsttraining center was launched in
1992.
But I had just gotten marriedand the agency at the time
(03:32):
didn't let newlyweds go to themission field.
They wanted to stay home for ayear.
But at that point I'd spentseven or eight years leading
short-term missions tripsoverseas and my wife was a
missionary kid, so it's just inour DNA.
So I accepted the position ofbeing the director of
international ministries at theMaster's University, working
with international students whocame around the globe, but also
(03:54):
sending out studentscross-culturally, locally,
working with immigrants andrefugees in urban contexts but
also internationally.
Context but also internationally, and I just came to understand
kind of the wedding of educationand discipleship with missions
was where the Lord was directingme.
So I went on to attend theMaster's Seminary and ended up
(04:17):
serving at the Master'sUniversity for 27 years teaching
missions, discipling students,overseeing their outreach
programs, and transitioned 10years ago to become the
president of the Master'sAcademy International, where now
I get to support graduates ofboth the university and the
Master's Seminary who aretraining and equipping church
(04:39):
leaders around the globe.
I really come to work with onepassion and that's just to serve
my former students.
I had the privilege of trainingthem, helping invest, with many
others, that vision into theirlife, but then now I get to do
everything I can to come behindthem and help support their work
(04:59):
as it develops around the globe.
So I'm incredibly blessed,privileged, certainly
undeserving and just reallygrateful to see what God's doing
in our generation as far asadvancing the Great Commission
through His church, which hasalways been His plan and His
purpose.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I love that.
I love that.
So very multifaceted, you hiton several different
institutions, the growth ofbasically one concept of
education with discipleship andman.
That hits home hard for us hereon the Unreached podcast and
how we do discipleship groups.
And how did Jesus change theworld?
Right, he got a small grouptogether.
(05:38):
They did life for three years.
There's a model there that wecan replicate, right, and 2
Timothy 2 speaks directly tothat.
You know, you've heard thesetruths and I'll teach them to
other trustworthy people, passthem on to others, right?
So you've been doing that nowfor decades, mark, and when I
think about how many locationsand different people you've met
and trained and you think about,you know, the branches off the
(06:01):
vine and how far those go now,one of the things you said
before we started recording washow you're excited about, you
know, the depth of, I guess, howthose branches have grown and
where they're going next, and so, without you know, maybe we
would typically start in theback and go to the front, but I
want to hit that early because Ithink it's too important for
(06:23):
our listeners.
And you said who are yourlisteners, right?
Okay, so we've got traditionalmissionaries.
We've got people doing businessas missions.
We've got a lot of pastors.
So with that audience in mind,mark, how do you explain to them
the fruit that you've seen ofgetting local leaders trained
and taught on how to preach andhow to lead and taught on how to
(06:47):
preach and how to lead, and howdoes that branch out from the
local kind of water well sourceversus all coming maybe from the
West?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I want to begin first by just referencing John
MacArthur and his influence inour ministries.
He said from the very outsetI'm grateful for these
institutions, but there's oneinstitution that God ordained
and that's the church, oneeternal institution.
So any of these what we wouldterm parachurch ministries,
(07:13):
universities, seminaries,mission agencies wherever they
might be, they have to alwayskeep clear that their
responsibility is to serve thelocal church.
And we can give lip service tothat.
But I would say today, thereality is most parachurch
ministries and sadly, manymission agencies have lost their
(07:36):
footing as far as the priorityof the local church.
And you see that around theworld there's a lot of good
intentions in missions today, astrong focus on evangelism and
using creative, entrepreneurialplatforms and things like that
to do, and that's okay as longas they're working with and
(07:59):
strengthening the local church.
It's the local church and theGreat Commission.
It's important that we don'toverlook the emphasis of the
Great Commission in Matthew 28.
Yes, it starts with makingconverts.
It doesn't end there.
It goes on to make disciples,and the methodology that's
referenced there begins withbaptism.
Which baptism if you'refaithful to a New Testament
(08:23):
understanding of that is inordinance of the church.
But it's not just illustrativeof what's happened to us
spiritually.
It is a public profession,before a congregation of
believers to say I'm committingmyself to the local church to
serve, utilizing my giftedness,being submissive to leaders and
(08:44):
submissive to the congregationat large, not only to serve them
but for them to serve me in thefurther progress of my own
growth and sanctification.
There's accountability, is whatI'm getting out of the local
church, and then the emphasis isteaching them to observe all
that I have entrusted to you.
Christ is saying Well, whathe's entrusted to the church is
(09:06):
the truth and the responsibilityof evangelists and pastors and
missionaries to teach and trainthose in the context of the
local church.
So we need to recover today thepriority of the local church as
essential to fulfilling theGreat Commission.
So I just wanted to tag thatbase.
The other thing as far as Johnis concerned, he said early on
(09:29):
I'm grateful to give leadershipto these other ministries as
they support the church, but I'mprimarily a pastor, I'm a
preacher and I'm going to focusmy own ministry on the depth of
God's Word and trust the Lordfor the breadth of impact.
So the one thing that kind ofdefines our convictions is be
(09:49):
faithful to the authority ofGod's word, the faithful
proclamation of God's word andin a day and age and I've been
teaching missions for about 35years, so I've watched the
trends and I would say thatwe've become a lot more reliant
on pragmatic strategies,methodologies.
(10:10):
We've really borrowed a lot inthe field of missiology from
secular sociology and culturalstudies and sadly, in many cases
and I would say it's trickledinto the thinking of mission
organizations and missionariesthemselves pragmatic strategies
and methodologies that, ifyou're honest, elevate culture
(10:35):
and cultural studies as theauthority over God's word.
And I think the New Testamentis very clear it's the
proclamation of the truthcoupled with the demonstration
of God's love.
So there's an integrity to themessage that shines as a bright
(10:55):
light.
Whether that's Paul inPhilippians, chapter 2, we both
proclaim the excellencies of Godand then we demonstrate the
excellencies of him in puttinghis character and behavior on
display.
Or if it's Christ himself inMatthew 5, where we shine as
bright lights as we practice ourgood deeds before men.
(11:18):
And so the integrity of theChristian life, where it's truth
in practice.
Well, you can't just focus onthe practice part without the
truth part, and a lot of peopletoday are focused on the
practicing part, and they'veceased to even proclaim the
truth.
So my little catchphrase rightnow is to say recognize there's
(11:48):
a lot of good intentions andmissions today, but good
intentions are not good enough.
We need to return to thepriorities we see in the New
Testament and trust that God'sword is not just authoritative,
it is sufficient.
It is the means by which we canfaithfully fulfill the Great
Commission.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I love that You're just reminding our listeners and
your own people that will hearthis got to stay true to the
Word.
We've got to be in the Word,we've got to know the Word, and
I think about Ephesians 6 a lot.
And just if I don't, I may havemy helmet and I may have my
armor, and I may have my shoesand I may have my belt, but I
(12:29):
may not have a sword if I don'tknow the Word and I'm not in the
Word and I'm not faithful to it.
So of all the things you said,I want to make sure I just
reiterate that and your point'swell received.
It's also that what you've done, starting in the LA area, out
in California, and then grown.
Tell us about the growth ofyour international groups.
Do you call them seminaries?
Are they schools?
(12:49):
Are they teaching centers?
What do you call them?
And where are you now and howdoes that branch out?
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah.
So when John became presidentof the master's, then college,
now university, he then startedthe master's seminary because
his passion is to equip andtrain pastors.
That's his zeal.
He loves the universitystudents.
It's so fun to see him in thatcontext as well.
So if you look at bothinstitutions, one is equipping
(13:16):
and training pastors and churchleaders to rightly divide God's
Word and develop a biblicalphilosophy of ministry that has
integrity.
But then because the pastorsshepherd a congregation
comprised of lay people in thepews who are dispersed by God in
a sovereign plan, in a myriadof vocations, where they're, in
(13:38):
places where, if they're goingto glorify God, they have to
understand a biblical worldviewand how to bring that to bear in
a context that doesn't hold toa biblical worldview so that in
practice they live a life ofintegrity.
So between the university andthe seminary you've got these
two entities that are equippingbelievers in their vocations,
either as pastors or in othervocational fields.
(14:01):
But the idea is the church as awhole is equipped then to have
impact for the glory of God andthe advancement of the gospel.
What happened is and this beganin 1992 with the collapse of the
Soviet Union and the IronCurtain coming down our church.
Grace Community Church hostedan annual pastor's conference.
(14:24):
Grace Community Church hosts anannual pastor's conference and
some men from Ukraine came tothe Shepherds Conference and
said we're very concerned withthe freedoms, that we anticipate
coming the inroads of falseteachers, cults, liberalism.
We've been protected from allthat and we've also for 80 years
(14:47):
not had the freedom to trainpastors and church leaders.
It was illegal, right, you know, couldn't run their own
seminars.
But they said you know, we'vegot these proven churches who,
under persecution and underattack, have been purified and
and we appreciate at that pointparticularly John's writing the
book Charismatic Chaos.
(15:08):
They said that's one of ourmain concerns, that would be the
influence of the charismaticmovement and we trust your voice
on this because we agree withwhat you're saying.
Would you help us?
And what resulted then was aninvitation from the leaders of
the.
And what resulted then was aninvitation from the leaders of
(15:42):
the Baptist denomination thebiggest Baptist denomination in
the globe, in the world to sendgraduates of the Master's
Seminary to partner with them todevelop a seminary-level
training program for theirpastors.
I mean we were incrediblyhumbled by that invitation,
their pastors, I mean we wereincredibly humbled by that
invitation.
So we responded to that andsaid you've extended the
invitation.
This is not our agenda, we'renot coming to take anything over
, but we're glad to come andserve.
So our guys plugged into theirchurches under their pastors and
worked with them to develop aMasters of Divinity-level
(16:04):
program, and that was 1992 whenthat program was launched.
Well, once that took place,people would come back to
Shepherd's Conference.
They'd hear a testimony aboutthat and church leaders in India
who were at the conference saidboy, we could use some help as
well.
We're concerned about the driftof our seminaries into
(16:26):
liberalism and pragmatism andthings like that.
A lot of the mainlinedenominational seminaries
overseas have begun to driftfrom their convictions about the
inerrancy and authority ofScripture.
So we said, well, sure, we'llsend some graduates.
So we recruited some and andset them out as missionaries and
they worked with their nationalcolleagues there in India.
(16:49):
That happened again in SouthAfrica.
That happened again in a numberof places.
So by 2004, we looked at thisand said man, after 12 years we
see there's a need and aninterest.
But we need to find a way tosupport these training centers
is what we refer to them aswhere we can make sure that we
(17:12):
offer the highest level oftheological education and
discipleship and make itaffordable to them.
That means basically, we'regoing to have to raise money to
offset the expense.
They all pay tuition.
They cover their travelexpenses.
They're very sacrificial.
They cover their travelexpenses.
They're very sacrificial.
(17:33):
So the Masters AcademyInternational was formed in 2004
to function really like afoundation to give grants to an
association of pastoral trainingcenters to support these
national pastors to completetheir theological education in
country so they could stay intheir churches.
That was another reallyimportant thing.
We could pull them out and bringthem to the West.
(17:54):
But those early years,particularly after the Iron
Curtain came down, we realizedthat it was a difficult life
they faced and bringing some ofthem to the States resulted in
some of them staying and notreturning back to their home
countries and we said we don'twant to be guilty of that.
When and if we bring a person tothe Master's Seminary, we want
(18:15):
to make sure they're proven andthey're committed to return and
being part of that trainingministry at that point.
So that's kind of our DNA is toreally only go where we receive
an invitation from nationalchurch leaders who have a desire
to equip their church leadersto do expositional preaching and
implement biblical philosophyministry.
(18:36):
And then we come alongside andprovide financial support and
it's grown since that.
We provide academic resources.
We have a whole globalpublishing division that works
in translation of theologicalresources so those pastors have
the tools they need to study andthat's expanded to do works for
local churches to resource themin areas like biblical
(18:59):
counseling and discipleship andall kinds of things.
So the work's grown over theyears.
But that's kind of the historyof it, the genesis of it and
what our DNA is.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, I love that.
And you said something elsethat was really key and I want
the listeners not to miss this.
You said we go where we'reinvited and you go under the
leadership of the local pastors.
You're coming under them tosupport them, to equip them to
disciple and help lead them tomake them more effective at
(19:29):
shepherding their flock, andthat's so key.
I think the humility Mark thatJohn has and you have, and your
strategy it's not what you wouldexpect from one of the most
successful and significantorganizations on the planet in
this realm.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah.
So where we're at today and wemarvel at this Matter of fact,
when John and I talk, he goes.
This is above and beyondwhatever we could ask or think.
He just says that every time.
And just a comment about Johnand our DNA, because it's
biblical, but also as it'smanifested in his own example.
(20:10):
John is known for a lot ofthings right, a defender of the
truth and a number of otherconvictions that he stands for.
But I'll tell you what.
He's just a pastor at heart.
He loves people.
He's a shepherd.
As an elder, we can't even beathim to the emergency room at
the hospital.
He hears about somebody in ourchurch and it's a big church.
(20:30):
He and his wife are the firstones there.
He knows our missionaries byname.
They give generously personally, but he just has a real
servant's heart and a verygenerous spirit.
So he says everything that weproduce, we don't want to earn
any money off of it, we justwant to give it away.
(20:51):
We want to get it into thehands of church leaders and so
that spirit of service andgenerosity starts with them.
We've all been discipled in itand we want to be faithful to it
because we believe it's reallybiblical.
Not a lot of people get to seeJohn up close and in a firsthand
way, and I've had the privilegeof seeing that in his own life
(21:12):
for 30 plus years, and so I justwant to acknowledge that I'm
really grateful for him.
Let's pull on that thread for asecond.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So you also serve as an elder at Grace and, as I said
, a lot of pastors do tune in,and even our own here.
As I said, a lot of pastors dotune in, and even our own here,
when you look at therelationship between an elder
board and the lead pastor,executive pastor and the other
(21:41):
roles in a church.
Tell us about your framework.
How do you operate?
How do you think a healthylocal church leadership body
should be structured and shouldserve?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Sure, leadership body kind of should be structured
and should serve Sure Well, thisis one of my passions
personally is to you know, wetrain pastors here at the
Master's Seminary and then sendthem out and they develop and
train pastors here at theMaster's Academy International.
So that's kind of our bread andbutter.
But my particular passionwithin that is that pastors
understand their responsibilityto lead and shepherd their local
(22:11):
churches to participate in thefulfillment of God's redemptive
plan.
And that means a pastor has tobe trained to understand.
He can't delegate thatresponsibility.
I'm fine if you've got amissions pastor or missions
elder or missions committee.
That's not what I'm saying.
You've got to delegate.
(22:31):
I delegate to a lot of people.
You can't delegateresponsibility or setting the
vision.
And when you teach verse byverse in an expositional
approach, just tag the basewhere that text relates to or
demonstrates a biblical theologyof missions or the advancement
(22:53):
of the gospel.
It's not adequate to have amission Sunday or to preach a
mission sermon once a year.
It needs to flow out of thetext in a consistent way.
Don't read missions into thetext, but also don't neglect to
tag the base when you're goingthrough, if it's Acts or if it's
an epistle or even the OldTestament, whatever it is.
(23:14):
And I say that because a lot ofpastors don't know where
missions fits into their owncalling.
They have this kind ofdichotomy in their thinking.
I'm called a shepherd or localflock and I support missions,
but that's something that otherpeople do and what that does is
(23:34):
it creates a dichotomy actuallyin the function of the local
church where you reinforce foryour own people.
I live here and so thereforethis is the limited scope of my
obligation.
I might write a check, I mightpray for a missionary, but
particularly in a globalizedworld, here and internationally,
every church has cross-culturalevangelistic and discipleship
opportunities.
(23:55):
Every church there areimmigrant populations, refugee
populations everywhere aroundthe world understand biblically,
a biblical theology of missions, how that flows in their own
calling as a local pastor, howthat informs the vision of the
elders and leadership of thatchurch, and then how you
(24:17):
understand the equipping ofpeople in pursuing holiness and
sanctification is related to thefurtherance of the gospel and
see the mission of the church assomething that's more complete.
Some would use the word holistic, I'd say comprehensive instead
(24:38):
of this dichotomized approach,and I've just watched John model
that at Grace Church.
There's not a person at ourchurch an elder In fact we have
about 40 elders and I've donethe exercise several times
sitting at the table.
I go around and I can seeevidence and illustrate every
elder where they play an activepart in some aspect of
(25:00):
supporting our global work.
How about that?
Even though they might be inchildren's ministry or
disability ministries orwhatever else.
And so when you have a churchlike that, then that church is
vibrant, People are coming tofaith in Christ, they're being
baptized and they're engaged notjust in giving and prayer but
(25:20):
actual participation acrossculturally, in their own lives,
and that's what brings their ownvocation into focus, because
every industry has beenglobalized.
So their colleagues representthe nations.
But we've got to help pastorsthat's your question.
We've got to help pastors.
See it completely as a whole,not in this dichotomized fashion
(25:46):
.
And boy, when that happens, man, the entire church is on
mission, they're on fire.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I think of it in my line of work as working in your
business versus working on yourbusiness, right?
So if you're spending all yourtime working in your business as
a pastor, then you're totallyfocused on what's right in front
of you and there's a goodchance you're not evaluating
what you're missing.
If you take time to zoom outand that should be, I think, a
key role of an elder board right, you take time to zoom out and
(26:15):
look at opportunities andweaknesses and threats and the
other components and what are wenot doing?
What are we not getting enoughof here?
You know, a major part of that,mark, is the humility of the
lead pastor.
Even at that level.
Mark is the humility of thelead pastor Even at that level.
They need to be able to trustsome people on that board to say
, hey, you've kind of gottenfocused on this over here.
(26:40):
There's some other components inthat text you're maybe not
evaluating or bringing to lightthat could be really helpful for
the body.
What does it look like?
What's the rhythm of the elderboard's engagement?
At Grace you said there's 40.
That's a big board.
What's the rhythm?
What's the meetings?
What's the roles andresponsibilities?
How do y'all make sure thebases are getting covered and
evaluate with that zoomed outperspective.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, so I'll give you our framework or our
structure.
So we've got about 40 elders.
That would include lay andstaff elders.
There's a group of 13, 14 of uswho oversee our missions
ministry.
Now, years ago we actuallyformulated what's called Grace
Ministries International, whichis a mission agency that is an
(27:27):
entity of our own local church.
Now we're a big church, not allchurches can do that.
But Grace MinistriesInternational was created to
facilitate the sending of allthese seminary students who were
being asked to go out and tohelp training pastors overseas.
So GMI was formed in 1997.
Okay, the group of us who areelders who oversee that, we are
(27:52):
broken down regionally.
So we've asked some of ourveteran missionaries and
training center leaders to serveas regional shepherds because
they know the work, they knowthe culture, they know the life
of a missionary and pastor andthey're available to come
alongside for care, counsel andmeeting the needs of couples and
(28:14):
families and also coaching whenit comes to developing new
training ministries.
So we have guys on the field.
But our group of elders aredivided by region to support our
regional shepherd.
So we have guys assigned tofive global regions and then we
meet monthly and our elders onthat team read every newsletter.
(28:38):
We're available for counsel.
We all live on Zoom these daysso we do a lot of follow-up
every week to make sure wherethere's needs and then, in the
sending of new graduates outaround the world, we work with
our guys in the region todevelop a ministry plan and then
send them out and then supportthem.
So today we have 95 familiesout through GMI.
(29:02):
So we've grown and scaled upwith the increased number of
invitations.
As far as the number of schools, to give you a sense of the
work that we're doing on thefield, so TMAI is an association
of pastoral training centersled by nationals.
So our goal, even if we send anAmerican missionary, is to pass
the baton to nationals.
(29:22):
So we have 19 member schoolstoday.
I would say 12 of them are ledcompletely by nationals that
we've trained and entrusted thework to.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Wow that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
That's incredible.
Those 19 schools, though,because most pastors are
bivocational, so we're trying toreach them in their own
community.
So, after training a couplegenerations of pastors, then
their churches become a hostsite.
So we have today almost 90teaching sites through those 19
(29:58):
schools, and what we require toopen up a school or a site is
what we call two model churches,and that means they're not
perfect there's no such thing asperfect church but they're a
church that's committed to afaithful exposition of God's
word, implementation of abiblical philosophy of ministry,
worship, children's youth,evangelism all those areas
(30:19):
counseling and those might be indevelopment.
They become a hub, an example.
So as we train pastors, we alsodisciple and model for them
what a biblical church lookslike.
Then that thing just kind ofscales up.
If there's a need to open up anew site, we do that.
So that's where we're at today.
What we're working on goingforward is we actually have
(30:41):
graduates of the Master'sSeminary in 75 nations, and
we're in touch with all of them,and we're in touch with all of
them, and it's just in their DNAto training.
What's happening more and moreso is nationals are coming to
the master seminary and goingback to their own countries.
So we're actually starting moretraining centers just with
nationals.
(31:01):
Then we come alongside andsupport them and equip them to
do that.
But right now we're projectingthe next well, the next four
years to add 16 new schools.
Now, when we add a new school,there's about six to eight years
of developing that schoolbefore they even open their
(31:23):
doors.
So we've been working withthese 16 schools now for, you
know, between five and eightyears.
So we really want working withthese 16 schools now for between
five and eight years.
So we really want to have asmart growth strategy.
Again, none of those are schoolsthat we initiated.
Those were all invitationsextended Because of the
reputation of pastors who'vebeen trained, maybe in a
(31:44):
neighboring country or somethingthey got exposed to at
Shepherd's Conference.
So these are really excitingdays for us.
We don't take it for granted.
We're not numbers driven, butwe do see it as a testimony of a
hunger for God's word.
People are weary with falseteaching, the deception of the
(32:05):
prosperity gospel, which doesn'tdeliver what it promises to
offer people, of the prosperitygospel which doesn't deliver
what it promises to offer people.
People have lost heart withwhat's masquerading as gospel
ministry and obviously that'sthe work of God in the heart,
nothing we take credit for, butthere's a hunger for sound
teaching and we're just tryingto keep up with that demand.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, Mark, I had to admit once on one of the podcast
episodes that I needed torepent a little bit in my own
heart, I think, because I wasnarrow framing my view of
missions to we're always tryingto get somewhere.
We're not welcome just becausea lot of our focus has been on
the task remaining and theunreached people groups and even
the unengaged people groups andthe unreached people groups and
(32:49):
even the unengaged peoplegroups.
often what we're hearing andlearning is the missionaries
that are on the ground areencountering people that are
very, very ready and beenpraying for someone to come and
be there and teach them and tellthem the good news and show
them how to go about planning orleading or shifting their
church, and there is a massivehunger.
I'm glad you hit on that.
I also noticed you said y'allare LA, we're in Austin.
(33:12):
A lot of people come here fromother parts of the world and we
have an opportunity to engagewith them, to teach them, and so
a lot of what's happening withy'all is it's people coming from
another country spending timeat your schools and at your
church and then getting equippedand then going back with that
education and that heart andthat mindset to teach and engage
(33:37):
and train.
And then they don't get sentout and forgotten.
They're sent out but they'recalling back in, they're on
Zooms, they're being supported,they're being fed.
There's a lot to be said justfor that, because if you're
staying engaged at that level,then I would hope and I would
pray that gives you theopportunity to ask some hard
questions and to say I see thisgoing on.
(33:58):
I mean, if you read 40% of theNew Testament, is Paul writing
letters back to his baby churchplants and correcting a lot of
misbehavior and misguidedthought and people coming in
trying to interrupt the truth.
That's being taught and itsounds like y'all have got a
process with veteran, mature,seasoned leaders upstream
(34:23):
constantly checking in on theguys downstream and it goes all
the way up to John and then itgoes down through the elder
board and then it goes downthrough the regional guys and
then it goes down through theregional guys and then it goes
down through the schools andthen it goes out to the 90 or so
training centers and throughthat framework.
God's really blessed that andnow you see the opportunity,
like you said, in four years,for really, I would say, radical
(34:45):
, continued growth.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's what I'm saying.
We all look at it and reallyfeel like we can't and shouldn't
take any credit for it.
We're just watching God at workin our generation and we credit
him.
But it's just trying to befaithful to first principles
right Interpretation of thescripture, faithful proclamation
of the word which sanctifiesGod's people.
(35:09):
Sanctified people have a lovefor Christ and they want their
unbelieving friends and familymembers to know him like they
know him.
And so when they have a soundgospel, then and their life
demonstrates integrity notperfection, but integrity then
it has impact and creates trust.
(35:31):
And I think that's what drawspeople to say I want to be
taught, I want to understand.
But yeah, that's how it'sworking.
Two things that I'm observingright now that we're real
excited about is if you look atwhat I think is going to prove
to be the most effective way toreach into two categories of
(35:53):
need.
One would be how to equip andserve the church and further the
gospel in restricted accesscontext.
So if you take, for instance,open Border's World Watch list
that they publish every year onthe most persecuted countries as
far as threats to the churchand we've dialogued quite a bit
with them.
But it's interesting.
(36:13):
I just looked at their top 50nations last year.
I compared it with where we hadhad an opportunity to train
somebody from one of thosecountries.
I was surprised to discover thatout of the top 50, we had had
the privilege of training atleast one, if not many, pastors
from 37 out of the top 50 mostpersecuted contexts.
(36:36):
That's awesome and that wasnationals having access to
training and going back intotheir own context restricted
access context and I was justman.
That really impacted me and Ithought what a stewardship that
we haven't maybe fully investedin and been intentional.
(36:57):
So I tried to start pointingthis out to our training center
leaders and I'd ask them wheredo you see inroads to train
folks who are refugees orimmigrants or maybe language
speakers of the language in thatcontext?
And all of a sudden it was likethey begin to tell stories of
where God was using theirchurches to reach these
(37:18):
individuals and then bringingthem into a training context and
I thought, wow, lord, you'realready doing this.
This wasn't our strategy,you're just doing it already Now
.
How can we support that?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
The second category goes back to the first question
you asked, and what I'm lookingat right now is the effect of
our ministry after 30-some years.
I say it this way Maturechurches become sending churches
.
So if you follow God'sprinciples to make sure that the
pulpits sound, and then there'sa biblical philosophy of
(37:52):
ministry being implemented andlet me just comment on that,
that's my concern a little bittoday Even if you get preaching,
when I look at the globalchurches that we serve, they're
reliant on a lot of tools andresources coming from the
Western church that are verypragmatic and, I would say, not
really always biblically sound.
(38:14):
They may be wrapped in Bibleverses, but they're very
market-driven, in a sense thatwe want to see what's strategic,
what's effective, the quickestway to plant churches, the
quickest way to do this,whatever it is, or even the
worship music that's beingcreated today.
That is problematic.
So what we're seeing is, onceguys are trained to teach the
(38:37):
Word, they begin to recognize.
Wow, how we're approachingworship doesn't line up with New
Testament priorities.
Oh, the way we're counselingpeople, the way we're dealing
with marriage, the way we'redealing with parenting, the way
we're doing children's ministrywe're using all these tools the
West is creating.
But there's a disconnect,sometimes, not always, and so
(39:02):
what we're seeing them do is tobe more discerning and say how
should we do worship, how shouldwe do these other areas of
ministry?
Now, when a church begins tomature so that there's integrity
, where the authority of God'sWord drives everything, now you
have people being sanctified inthe truth in a really exciting
way, and then that church, Ithink, is a 1 John 4 kind of
(39:27):
church where they put on displaythe character of God, they
reveal the Father, just asChrist did in the incarnation.
Now the church is to reveal theFather and as Christ did in the
incarnation.
Now the church is to reveal theFather.
And how we live in communitywith each other in accord with
God's word is what gives ourgospel witness validity.
(39:48):
We all know the greatestaccusation thrown at us
believers is hypocrisy.
So for the church to accomplishits purpose in the world and
the advancement of the gospel,it's not just sound preaching,
it's a biblical philosophy,ministry.
People sanctify it in the truth.
There's a practicing of the oneanother's in a way that then,
when they go out and declare thegospel of God, they don't talk
(40:11):
about a God that just, is lovingand merciful and kind and
forgiving, and all of hisattributes.
They actually live thoseattributes out, which are the
fruit of the Spirit in practice,and the combination of their
living testimony and theproclamation of the character of
God is what has power in theirvillage or their community and
(40:35):
so forth.
So what we're aiming for rightnow, and to kind of bring into
focus, I would say, then, maturechurches become sending
churches.
People are on missionevangelists in their own local
lives and spheres.
They become church plantingchurches to reproduce the church
and they become missionarysending churches.
(40:55):
So, as I look to the horizon,what we're talking about is
we're seeing now people beingsent out from the churches where
we've trained the pastors andleadership to go to reach the
unreached people groups or theunevangelized people groups.
And what's exciting about thatis these people they already
(41:17):
live at the local economic level.
So funding is a whole differentendeavor, being a more
achievable endeavor.
They also speak the language ora like dialect.
They understand the worldviewwhere the truth needs to be
applied and corrected, and we'reseeing people being sent out
(41:38):
that we've trained who are nowdoing Bible translation work,
church planting, missionarysending the things the Western
church has been doing for almost300 years.
Now we're seeing nationalchurches do that and I think
they're going to have a morefar-reaching impact into
unreached people, groups andunevangelized groups then if we
(41:59):
only focus our attention onrecruiting and sending Americans
I'm not opposed to that, I'vebeen doing that for 30-some
years, but this has kind of beensomething as close as I am to
it.
That has been a surprise to me.
I didn't expect this and Iregret that because I shouldn't
have known better.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Back to your humility right there, mark.
I don't know about that, butit's exciting to see, no doubt.
Well, hey, I'm going to cut youoff right here just because I
can feel the stories coming.
So let's cut this in.
We'll do another episode in twoweeks.
We're going to go a level downto the ground of the actual
stories of some of the people.
(42:37):
I want to give Mark anopportunity to tell some of the
stories of some of the peoplethat he's worked with, some of
the pastors and the locals, andhow those churches have matured
and become sending churches andnow have grown and gone into
their neighboring communities.
And so, mark, as a tradition onour podcast, would you pray for
the listeners on our way out?
And then, guys, we'll see allof you again in two weeks.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
I'd be glad to Thank you.
Let's pray, father.
I am considering those whomight be listening to this and
so grateful for theirfaithfulness in ministry, their
love for Christ, their devotionto his word.
Many of them are making suchgreat sacrifices personally to
be on the field, and I know theydo that gladly in service to
(43:20):
Christ, and so thank you forthem.
For those who are pastoringchurches, who are participating
in this enterprise, uphold them,strengthen them, help them to
be effective where you've setthem, and then those of us who
are senders by way of prayersand financial support, continue
to help us be faithful and goodstewards of where we put our
resources, that it might reallystrengthen your church for your
(43:41):
glory, and we ask this inChrist's name, amen.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Amen.
Thank you for listening toUnreached.
Our sincere desire is that whatyou've heard today will cause
you to see the mission of Goddifferently and your role in it
more clearly.
If this adds value for you andwe hope it does would you please
rate and review the podcastwherever you listen.
Also, share with your family,your friends, your church, your
life group, small group, d group, wherever you do life, and if
(44:06):
you want to connect with us,find us on Instagram at
unreachedpodcast, or email us atunreachedpodcast at gmailcom.
You, you.
In Revelation 7, john shares his vision of heaven
with members from every tribe,tongue, people and language
standing in the throne roombefore the Lamb.
Yet today there are still over7,000 unreached people groups
around the world.
For the last six years, myfamily and friends have been on
a journey to find, vet and fundthe task remaining.
(00:28):
Come journey with us to theends of the earth as we share
the supernatural stories of Godat work for the men and women he
has called to reach theunreached.
Hello friends, dustin Elliotthere, your host with the
Unreached podcast and veryexcited to be in the studio
today.
Mark Tatlock, with the MastersAcademy International and Grace
(00:52):
Community Church out inCalifornia is with us.
Help me welcome Mark, mark.
We're so excited to have youtoday.
Thank you, dustin, it's greatto be with you.
Okay, well, let's start with alittle bit of your story.
How did you get into being inthe church, being involved as a
pastor, as an elder, as a churchleader and really just one of
the key people globally trainingand equipping pastors for the
(01:16):
church?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, thank you.
I grew up in the home of apastor and I would say not just
a pastor, a true evangelist.
So my home life, my family life, my dad's example he's one of
those guys who never met astranger, didn't share the
gospel with them.
So I'm really thankful for thatheritage.
It doesn't mean.
As a young child I appreciatedthat I had to grow in my own
(01:39):
faith and maturity to understandthe priority of God for his
people, to be a testimony forChrist in every walk of life.
And that took place when I wasin college.
I was attending the master'scollege.
Matter of fact, it had justbecome the master's college John
MacArthur was appointed thepresident.
Prior to that I'd been LosAngeles Baptist College and a
(02:01):
wonderful school, had a richhistory, sound doctrine.
But when John MacArthur becamethe president he set into the
culture of a Christian liberalarts now university, a
commitment to equip and trainmen and women who would be
committed to the local churchwith a global vision.
And you expect that in a Biblecollege, but maybe not so much
(02:27):
in a liberal arts institution.
But what that did is it tookevery discipline, whether it was
business or the health sciencesor journalism, communication,
whatever major that was, and putit in the larger context of the
unfolding of God's redemptiveplan, and asking every student
in their time at the universitywhat's your place?
(02:47):
How do you become a steward ofyour calling and vocation?
And that just became anembedded part of the culture for
every graduate, and whetherthey're serving abroad or in a
local church, I would say whatcharacterizes graduates of the
Master's University is thatglobal vision and a commitment
(03:08):
to participate locally andglobally in that endeavor.
And so that's been a passion.
I graduated, was going to go tothe mission field, had been
invited to go into the Ukraineto be part of a new ministry,
actually where our firsttraining center was launched in
1992.
But I had just gotten marriedand the agency at the time
(03:32):
didn't let newlyweds go to themission field.
They wanted to stay home for ayear.
But at that point I'd spentseven or eight years leading
short-term missions tripsoverseas and my wife was a
missionary kid, so it's just inour DNA.
So I accepted the position ofbeing the director of
international ministries at theMaster's University, working
with international students whocame around the globe, but also
(03:54):
sending out studentscross-culturally, locally,
working with immigrants andrefugees in urban contexts but
also internationally.
Context but also internationally, and I just came to understand
kind of the wedding of educationand discipleship with missions
was where the Lord was directingme.
So I went on to attend theMaster's Seminary and ended up
(04:17):
serving at the Master'sUniversity for 27 years teaching
missions, discipling students,overseeing their outreach
programs, and transitioned 10years ago to become the
president of the Master'sAcademy International, where now
I get to support graduates ofboth the university and the
Master's Seminary who aretraining and equipping church
(04:39):
leaders around the globe.
I really come to work with onepassion and that's just to serve
my former students.
I had the privilege of trainingthem, helping invest, with many
others, that vision into theirlife, but then now I get to do
everything I can to come behindthem and help support their work
(04:59):
as it develops around the globe.
So I'm incredibly blessed,privileged, certainly
undeserving and just reallygrateful to see what God's doing
in our generation as far asadvancing the Great Commission
through His church, which hasalways been His plan and His
purpose.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I love that.
I love that.
So very multifaceted, you hiton several different
institutions, the growth ofbasically one concept of
education with discipleship andman.
That hits home hard for us hereon the Unreached podcast and
how we do discipleship groups.
And how did Jesus change theworld?
Right, he got a small grouptogether.
(05:38):
They did life for three years.
There's a model there that wecan replicate, right, and 2
Timothy 2 speaks directly tothat.
You know, you've heard thesetruths and I'll teach them to
other trustworthy people, passthem on to others, right?
So you've been doing that nowfor decades, mark, and when I
think about how many locationsand different people you've met
and trained and you think about,you know, the branches off the
(06:01):
vine and how far those go now,one of the things you said
before we started recording washow you're excited about, you
know, the depth of, I guess, howthose branches have grown and
where they're going next, and so, without you know, maybe we
would typically start in theback and go to the front, but I
want to hit that early because Ithink it's too important for
(06:23):
our listeners.
And you said who are yourlisteners, right?
Okay, so we've got traditionalmissionaries.
We've got people doing businessas missions.
We've got a lot of pastors.
So with that audience in mind,mark, how do you explain to them
the fruit that you've seen ofgetting local leaders trained
and taught on how to preach andhow to lead and taught on how to
(06:47):
preach and how to lead, and howdoes that branch out from the
local kind of water well sourceversus all coming maybe from the
West?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I want to begin first by just referencing John
MacArthur and his influence inour ministries.
He said from the very outsetI'm grateful for these
institutions, but there's oneinstitution that God ordained
and that's the church, oneeternal institution.
So any of these what we wouldterm parachurch ministries,
(07:13):
universities, seminaries,mission agencies wherever they
might be, they have to alwayskeep clear that their
responsibility is to serve thelocal church.
And we can give lip service tothat.
But I would say today, thereality is most parachurch
ministries and sadly, manymission agencies have lost their
(07:36):
footing as far as the priorityof the local church.
And you see that around theworld there's a lot of good
intentions in missions today, astrong focus on evangelism and
using creative, entrepreneurialplatforms and things like that
to do, and that's okay as longas they're working with and
(07:59):
strengthening the local church.
It's the local church and theGreat Commission.
It's important that we don'toverlook the emphasis of the
Great Commission in Matthew 28.
Yes, it starts with makingconverts.
It doesn't end there.
It goes on to make disciples,and the methodology that's
referenced there begins withbaptism.
Which baptism if you'refaithful to a New Testament
(08:23):
understanding of that is inordinance of the church.
But it's not just illustrativeof what's happened to us
spiritually.
It is a public profession,before a congregation of
believers to say I'm committingmyself to the local church to
serve, utilizing my giftedness,being submissive to leaders and
(08:44):
submissive to the congregationat large, not only to serve them
but for them to serve me in thefurther progress of my own
growth and sanctification.
There's accountability, is whatI'm getting out of the local
church, and then the emphasis isteaching them to observe all
that I have entrusted to you.
Christ is saying Well, whathe's entrusted to the church is
(09:06):
the truth and the responsibilityof evangelists and pastors and
missionaries to teach and trainthose in the context of the
local church.
So we need to recover today thepriority of the local church as
essential to fulfilling theGreat Commission.
So I just wanted to tag thatbase.
The other thing as far as Johnis concerned, he said early on
(09:29):
I'm grateful to give leadershipto these other ministries as
they support the church, but I'mprimarily a pastor, I'm a
preacher and I'm going to focusmy own ministry on the depth of
God's Word and trust the Lordfor the breadth of impact.
So the one thing that kind ofdefines our convictions is be
(09:49):
faithful to the authority ofGod's word, the faithful
proclamation of God's word andin a day and age and I've been
teaching missions for about 35years, so I've watched the
trends and I would say thatwe've become a lot more reliant
on pragmatic strategies,methodologies.
(10:10):
We've really borrowed a lot inthe field of missiology from
secular sociology and culturalstudies and sadly, in many cases
and I would say it's trickledinto the thinking of mission
organizations and missionariesthemselves pragmatic strategies
and methodologies that, ifyou're honest, elevate culture
(10:35):
and cultural studies as theauthority over God's word.
And I think the New Testamentis very clear it's the
proclamation of the truthcoupled with the demonstration
of God's love.
So there's an integrity to themessage that shines as a bright
(10:55):
light.
Whether that's Paul inPhilippians, chapter 2, we both
proclaim the excellencies of Godand then we demonstrate the
excellencies of him in puttinghis character and behavior on
display.
Or if it's Christ himself inMatthew 5, where we shine as
bright lights as we practice ourgood deeds before men.
(11:18):
And so the integrity of theChristian life, where it's truth
in practice.
Well, you can't just focus onthe practice part without the
truth part, and a lot of peopletoday are focused on the
practicing part, and they'veceased to even proclaim the
truth.
So my little catchphrase rightnow is to say recognize there's
(11:48):
a lot of good intentions andmissions today, but good
intentions are not good enough.
We need to return to thepriorities we see in the New
Testament and trust that God'sword is not just authoritative,
it is sufficient.
It is the means by which we canfaithfully fulfill the Great
Commission.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I love that You're just reminding our listeners and
your own people that will hearthis got to stay true to the
Word.
We've got to be in the Word,we've got to know the Word, and
I think about Ephesians 6 a lot.
And just if I don't, I may havemy helmet and I may have my
armor, and I may have my shoesand I may have my belt, but I
(12:29):
may not have a sword if I don'tknow the Word and I'm not in the
Word and I'm not faithful to it.
So of all the things you said,I want to make sure I just
reiterate that and your point'swell received.
It's also that what you've done, starting in the LA area, out
in California, and then grown.
Tell us about the growth ofyour international groups.
Do you call them seminaries?
Are they schools?
(12:49):
Are they teaching centers?
What do you call them?
And where are you now and howdoes that branch out?
How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah.
So when John became presidentof the master's, then college,
now university, he then startedthe master's seminary because
his passion is to equip andtrain pastors.
That's his zeal.
He loves the universitystudents.
It's so fun to see him in thatcontext as well.
So if you look at bothinstitutions, one is equipping
(13:16):
and training pastors and churchleaders to rightly divide God's
Word and develop a biblicalphilosophy of ministry that has
integrity.
But then because the pastorsshepherd a congregation
comprised of lay people in thepews who are dispersed by God in
a sovereign plan, in a myriadof vocations, where they're, in
(13:38):
places where, if they're goingto glorify God, they have to
understand a biblical worldviewand how to bring that to bear in
a context that doesn't hold toa biblical worldview so that in
practice they live a life ofintegrity.
So between the university andthe seminary you've got these
two entities that are equippingbelievers in their vocations,
either as pastors or in othervocational fields.
(14:01):
But the idea is the church as awhole is equipped then to have
impact for the glory of God andthe advancement of the gospel.
What happened is and this beganin 1992 with the collapse of the
Soviet Union and the IronCurtain coming down our church.
Grace Community Church hostedan annual pastor's conference.
(14:24):
Grace Community Church hosts anannual pastor's conference and
some men from Ukraine came tothe Shepherds Conference and
said we're very concerned withthe freedoms, that we anticipate
coming the inroads of falseteachers, cults, liberalism.
We've been protected from allthat and we've also for 80 years
(14:47):
not had the freedom to trainpastors and church leaders.
It was illegal, right, you know, couldn't run their own
seminars.
But they said you know, we'vegot these proven churches who,
under persecution and underattack, have been purified and
and we appreciate at that pointparticularly John's writing the
book Charismatic Chaos.
(15:08):
They said that's one of ourmain concerns, that would be the
influence of the charismaticmovement and we trust your voice
on this because we agree withwhat you're saying.
Would you help us?
And what resulted then was aninvitation from the leaders of
the.
And what resulted then was aninvitation from the leaders of
(15:42):
the Baptist denomination thebiggest Baptist denomination in
the globe, in the world to sendgraduates of the Master's
Seminary to partner with them todevelop a seminary-level
training program for theirpastors.
I mean we were incrediblyhumbled by that invitation,
their pastors, I mean we wereincredibly humbled by that
invitation.
So we responded to that andsaid you've extended the
invitation.
This is not our agenda, we'renot coming to take anything over
, but we're glad to come andserve.
So our guys plugged into theirchurches under their pastors and
worked with them to develop aMasters of Divinity-level
(16:04):
program, and that was 1992 whenthat program was launched.
Well, once that took place,people would come back to
Shepherd's Conference.
They'd hear a testimony aboutthat and church leaders in India
who were at the conference saidboy, we could use some help as
well.
We're concerned about the driftof our seminaries into
(16:26):
liberalism and pragmatism andthings like that.
A lot of the mainlinedenominational seminaries
overseas have begun to driftfrom their convictions about the
inerrancy and authority ofScripture.
So we said, well, sure, we'llsend some graduates.
So we recruited some and andset them out as missionaries and
they worked with their nationalcolleagues there in India.
(16:49):
That happened again in SouthAfrica.
That happened again in a numberof places.
So by 2004, we looked at thisand said man, after 12 years we
see there's a need and aninterest.
But we need to find a way tosupport these training centers
is what we refer to them aswhere we can make sure that we
(17:12):
offer the highest level oftheological education and
discipleship and make itaffordable to them.
That means basically, we'regoing to have to raise money to
offset the expense.
They all pay tuition.
They cover their travelexpenses.
They're very sacrificial.
They cover their travelexpenses.
They're very sacrificial.
(17:33):
So the Masters AcademyInternational was formed in 2004
to function really like afoundation to give grants to an
association of pastoral trainingcenters to support these
national pastors to completetheir theological education in
country so they could stay intheir churches.
That was another reallyimportant thing.
We could pull them out and bringthem to the West.
(17:54):
But those early years,particularly after the Iron
Curtain came down, we realizedthat it was a difficult life
they faced and bringing some ofthem to the States resulted in
some of them staying and notreturning back to their home
countries and we said we don'twant to be guilty of that.
When and if we bring a person tothe Master's Seminary, we want
(18:15):
to make sure they're proven andthey're committed to return and
being part of that trainingministry at that point.
So that's kind of our DNA is toreally only go where we receive
an invitation from nationalchurch leaders who have a desire
to equip their church leadersto do expositional preaching and
implement biblical philosophyministry.
(18:36):
And then we come alongside andprovide financial support and
it's grown since that.
We provide academic resources.
We have a whole globalpublishing division that works
in translation of theologicalresources so those pastors have
the tools they need to study andthat's expanded to do works for
local churches to resource themin areas like biblical
(18:59):
counseling and discipleship andall kinds of things.
So the work's grown over theyears.
But that's kind of the historyof it, the genesis of it and
what our DNA is.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, I love that.
And you said something elsethat was really key and I want
the listeners not to miss this.
You said we go where we'reinvited and you go under the
leadership of the local pastors.
You're coming under them tosupport them, to equip them to
disciple and help lead them tomake them more effective at
(19:29):
shepherding their flock, andthat's so key.
I think the humility Mark thatJohn has and you have, and your
strategy it's not what you wouldexpect from one of the most
successful and significantorganizations on the planet in
this realm.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah.
So where we're at today and wemarvel at this Matter of fact,
when John and I talk, he goes.
This is above and beyondwhatever we could ask or think.
He just says that every time.
And just a comment about Johnand our DNA, because it's
biblical, but also as it'smanifested in his own example.
(20:10):
John is known for a lot ofthings right, a defender of the
truth and a number of otherconvictions that he stands for.
But I'll tell you what.
He's just a pastor at heart.
He loves people.
He's a shepherd.
As an elder, we can't even beathim to the emergency room at
the hospital.
He hears about somebody in ourchurch and it's a big church.
(20:30):
He and his wife are the firstones there.
He knows our missionaries byname.
They give generously personally, but he just has a real
servant's heart and a verygenerous spirit.
So he says everything that weproduce, we don't want to earn
any money off of it, we justwant to give it away.
(20:51):
We want to get it into thehands of church leaders and so
that spirit of service andgenerosity starts with them.
We've all been discipled in itand we want to be faithful to it
because we believe it's reallybiblical.
Not a lot of people get to seeJohn up close and in a firsthand
way, and I've had the privilegeof seeing that in his own life
(21:12):
for 30 plus years, and so I justwant to acknowledge that I'm
really grateful for him.
Let's pull on that thread for asecond.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So you also serve as an elder at Grace and, as I said
, a lot of pastors do tune in,and even our own here.
As I said, a lot of pastors dotune in, and even our own here,
when you look at therelationship between an elder
board and the lead pastor,executive pastor and the other
(21:41):
roles in a church.
Tell us about your framework.
How do you operate?
How do you think a healthylocal church leadership body
should be structured and shouldserve?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Sure, leadership body kind of should be structured
and should serve Sure Well, thisis one of my passions
personally is to you know, wetrain pastors here at the
Master's Seminary and then sendthem out and they develop and
train pastors here at theMaster's Academy International.
So that's kind of our bread andbutter.
But my particular passionwithin that is that pastors
understand their responsibilityto lead and shepherd their local
(22:11):
churches to participate in thefulfillment of God's redemptive
plan.
And that means a pastor has tobe trained to understand.
He can't delegate thatresponsibility.
I'm fine if you've got amissions pastor or missions
elder or missions committee.
That's not what I'm saying.
You've got to delegate.
(22:31):
I delegate to a lot of people.
You can't delegateresponsibility or setting the
vision.
And when you teach verse byverse in an expositional
approach, just tag the basewhere that text relates to or
demonstrates a biblical theologyof missions or the advancement
(22:53):
of the gospel.
It's not adequate to have amission Sunday or to preach a
mission sermon once a year.
It needs to flow out of thetext in a consistent way.
Don't read missions into thetext, but also don't neglect to
tag the base when you're goingthrough, if it's Acts or if it's
an epistle or even the OldTestament, whatever it is.
(23:14):
And I say that because a lot ofpastors don't know where
missions fits into their owncalling.
They have this kind ofdichotomy in their thinking.
I'm called a shepherd or localflock and I support missions,
but that's something that otherpeople do and what that does is
(23:34):
it creates a dichotomy actuallyin the function of the local
church where you reinforce foryour own people.
I live here and so thereforethis is the limited scope of my
obligation.
I might write a check, I mightpray for a missionary, but
particularly in a globalizedworld, here and internationally,
every church has cross-culturalevangelistic and discipleship
opportunities.
(23:55):
Every church there areimmigrant populations, refugee
populations everywhere aroundthe world understand biblically,
a biblical theology of missions, how that flows in their own
calling as a local pastor, howthat informs the vision of the
elders and leadership of thatchurch, and then how you
(24:17):
understand the equipping ofpeople in pursuing holiness and
sanctification is related to thefurtherance of the gospel and
see the mission of the church assomething that's more complete.
Some would use the word holistic, I'd say comprehensive instead
(24:38):
of this dichotomized approach,and I've just watched John model
that at Grace Church.
There's not a person at ourchurch an elder In fact we have
about 40 elders and I've donethe exercise several times
sitting at the table.
I go around and I can seeevidence and illustrate every
elder where they play an activepart in some aspect of
(25:00):
supporting our global work.
How about that?
Even though they might be inchildren's ministry or
disability ministries orwhatever else.
And so when you have a churchlike that, then that church is
vibrant, People are coming tofaith in Christ, they're being
baptized and they're engaged notjust in giving and prayer but
(25:20):
actual participation acrossculturally, in their own lives,
and that's what brings their ownvocation into focus, because
every industry has beenglobalized.
So their colleagues representthe nations.
But we've got to help pastorsthat's your question.
We've got to help pastors.
See it completely as a whole,not in this dichotomized fashion
(25:46):
.
And boy, when that happens, man, the entire church is on
mission, they're on fire.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
I think of it in my line of work as working in your
business versus working on yourbusiness, right?
So if you're spending all yourtime working in your business as
a pastor, then you're totallyfocused on what's right in front
of you and there's a goodchance you're not evaluating
what you're missing.
If you take time to zoom outand that should be, I think, a
key role of an elder board right, you take time to zoom out and
(26:15):
look at opportunities andweaknesses and threats and the
other components and what are wenot doing?
What are we not getting enoughof here?
You know, a major part of that,mark, is the humility of the
lead pastor.
Even at that level.
Mark is the humility of thelead pastor Even at that level.
They need to be able to trustsome people on that board to say
, hey, you've kind of gottenfocused on this over here.
(26:40):
There's some other components inthat text you're maybe not
evaluating or bringing to lightthat could be really helpful for
the body.
What does it look like?
What's the rhythm of the elderboard's engagement?
At Grace you said there's 40.
That's a big board.
What's the rhythm?
What's the meetings?
What's the roles andresponsibilities?
How do y'all make sure thebases are getting covered and
evaluate with that zoomed outperspective.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, so I'll give you our framework or our
structure.
So we've got about 40 elders.
That would include lay andstaff elders.
There's a group of 13, 14 of uswho oversee our missions
ministry.
Now, years ago we actuallyformulated what's called Grace
Ministries International, whichis a mission agency that is an
(27:27):
entity of our own local church.
Now we're a big church, not allchurches can do that.
But Grace MinistriesInternational was created to
facilitate the sending of allthese seminary students who were
being asked to go out and tohelp training pastors overseas.
So GMI was formed in 1997.
Okay, the group of us who areelders who oversee that, we are
(27:52):
broken down regionally.
So we've asked some of ourveteran missionaries and
training center leaders to serveas regional shepherds because
they know the work, they knowthe culture, they know the life
of a missionary and pastor andthey're available to come
alongside for care, counsel andmeeting the needs of couples and
(28:14):
families and also coaching whenit comes to developing new
training ministries.
So we have guys on the field.
But our group of elders aredivided by region to support our
regional shepherd.
So we have guys assigned tofive global regions and then we
meet monthly and our elders onthat team read every newsletter.
(28:38):
We're available for counsel.
We all live on Zoom these daysso we do a lot of follow-up
every week to make sure wherethere's needs and then, in the
sending of new graduates outaround the world, we work with
our guys in the region todevelop a ministry plan and then
send them out and then supportthem.
So today we have 95 familiesout through GMI.
(29:02):
So we've grown and scaled upwith the increased number of
invitations.
As far as the number of schools, to give you a sense of the
work that we're doing on thefield, so TMAI is an association
of pastoral training centersled by nationals.
So our goal, even if we send anAmerican missionary, is to pass
the baton to nationals.
(29:22):
So we have 19 member schoolstoday.
I would say 12 of them are ledcompletely by nationals that
we've trained and entrusted thework to.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Wow that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
That's incredible.
Those 19 schools, though,because most pastors are
bivocational, so we're trying toreach them in their own
community.
So, after training a couplegenerations of pastors, then
their churches become a hostsite.
So we have today almost 90teaching sites through those 19
(29:58):
schools, and what we require toopen up a school or a site is
what we call two model churches,and that means they're not
perfect there's no such thing asperfect church but they're a
church that's committed to afaithful exposition of God's
word, implementation of abiblical philosophy of ministry,
worship, children's youth,evangelism all those areas
(30:19):
counseling and those might be indevelopment.
They become a hub, an example.
So as we train pastors, we alsodisciple and model for them
what a biblical church lookslike.
Then that thing just kind ofscales up.
If there's a need to open up anew site, we do that.
So that's where we're at today.
What we're working on goingforward is we actually have
(30:41):
graduates of the Master'sSeminary in 75 nations, and
we're in touch with all of them,and we're in touch with all of
them, and it's just in their DNAto training.
What's happening more and moreso is nationals are coming to
the master seminary and goingback to their own countries.
So we're actually starting moretraining centers just with
nationals.
(31:01):
Then we come alongside andsupport them and equip them to
do that.
But right now we're projectingthe next well, the next four
years to add 16 new schools.
Now, when we add a new school,there's about six to eight years
of developing that schoolbefore they even open their
(31:23):
doors.
So we've been working withthese 16 schools now for, you
know, between five and eightyears.
So we really want working withthese 16 schools now for between
five and eight years.
So we really want to have asmart growth strategy.
Again, none of those are schoolsthat we initiated.
Those were all invitationsextended Because of the
reputation of pastors who'vebeen trained, maybe in a
(31:44):
neighboring country or somethingthey got exposed to at
Shepherd's Conference.
So these are really excitingdays for us.
We don't take it for granted.
We're not numbers driven, butwe do see it as a testimony of a
hunger for God's word.
People are weary with falseteaching, the deception of the
(32:05):
prosperity gospel, which doesn'tdeliver what it promises to
offer people, of the prosperitygospel which doesn't deliver
what it promises to offer people.
People have lost heart withwhat's masquerading as gospel
ministry and obviously that'sthe work of God in the heart,
nothing we take credit for, butthere's a hunger for sound
teaching and we're just tryingto keep up with that demand.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, Mark, I had to admit once on one of the podcast
episodes that I needed torepent a little bit in my own
heart, I think, because I wasnarrow framing my view of
missions to we're always tryingto get somewhere.
We're not welcome just becausea lot of our focus has been on
the task remaining and theunreached people groups and even
the unengaged people groups andthe unreached people groups and
(32:49):
even the unengaged peoplegroups.
often what we're hearing andlearning is the missionaries
that are on the ground areencountering people that are
very, very ready and beenpraying for someone to come and
be there and teach them and tellthem the good news and show
them how to go about planning orleading or shifting their
church, and there is a massivehunger.
I'm glad you hit on that.
I also noticed you said y'allare LA, we're in Austin.
(33:12):
A lot of people come here fromother parts of the world and we
have an opportunity to engagewith them, to teach them, and so
a lot of what's happening withy'all is it's people coming from
another country spending timeat your schools and at your
church and then getting equippedand then going back with that
education and that heart andthat mindset to teach and engage
(33:37):
and train.
And then they don't get sentout and forgotten.
They're sent out but they'recalling back in, they're on
Zooms, they're being supported,they're being fed.
There's a lot to be said justfor that, because if you're
staying engaged at that level,then I would hope and I would
pray that gives you theopportunity to ask some hard
questions and to say I see thisgoing on.
(33:58):
I mean, if you read 40% of theNew Testament, is Paul writing
letters back to his baby churchplants and correcting a lot of
misbehavior and misguidedthought and people coming in
trying to interrupt the truth.
That's being taught and itsounds like y'all have got a
process with veteran, mature,seasoned leaders upstream
(34:23):
constantly checking in on theguys downstream and it goes all
the way up to John and then itgoes down through the elder
board and then it goes downthrough the regional guys and
then it goes down through theregional guys and then it goes
down through the schools andthen it goes out to the 90 or so
training centers and throughthat framework.
God's really blessed that andnow you see the opportunity,
like you said, in four years,for really, I would say, radical
(34:45):
, continued growth.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's what I'm saying.
We all look at it and reallyfeel like we can't and shouldn't
take any credit for it.
We're just watching God at workin our generation and we credit
him.
But it's just trying to befaithful to first principles
right Interpretation of thescripture, faithful proclamation
of the word which sanctifiesGod's people.
(35:09):
Sanctified people have a lovefor Christ and they want their
unbelieving friends and familymembers to know him like they
know him.
And so when they have a soundgospel, then and their life
demonstrates integrity notperfection, but integrity then
it has impact and creates trust.
(35:31):
And I think that's what drawspeople to say I want to be
taught, I want to understand.
But yeah, that's how it'sworking.
Two things that I'm observingright now that we're real
excited about is if you look atwhat I think is going to prove
to be the most effective way toreach into two categories of
(35:53):
need.
One would be how to equip andserve the church and further the
gospel in restricted accesscontext.
So if you take, for instance,open Border's World Watch list
that they publish every year onthe most persecuted countries as
far as threats to the churchand we've dialogued quite a bit
with them.
But it's interesting.
(36:13):
I just looked at their top 50nations last year.
I compared it with where we hadhad an opportunity to train
somebody from one of thosecountries.
I was surprised to discover thatout of the top 50, we had had
the privilege of training atleast one, if not many, pastors
from 37 out of the top 50 mostpersecuted contexts.
(36:36):
That's awesome and that wasnationals having access to
training and going back intotheir own context restricted
access context and I was justman.
That really impacted me and Ithought what a stewardship that
we haven't maybe fully investedin and been intentional.
(36:57):
So I tried to start pointingthis out to our training center
leaders and I'd ask them wheredo you see inroads to train
folks who are refugees orimmigrants or maybe language
speakers of the language in thatcontext?
And all of a sudden it was likethey begin to tell stories of
where God was using theirchurches to reach these
(37:18):
individuals and then bringingthem into a training context and
I thought, wow, lord, you'realready doing this.
This wasn't our strategy,you're just doing it already Now
.
How can we support that?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
The second category goes back to the first question
you asked, and what I'm lookingat right now is the effect of
our ministry after 30-some years.
I say it this way Maturechurches become sending churches
.
So if you follow God'sprinciples to make sure that the
pulpits sound, and then there'sa biblical philosophy of
(37:52):
ministry being implemented andlet me just comment on that,
that's my concern a little bittoday Even if you get preaching,
when I look at the globalchurches that we serve, they're
reliant on a lot of tools andresources coming from the
Western church that are verypragmatic and, I would say, not
really always biblically sound.
(38:14):
They may be wrapped in Bibleverses, but they're very
market-driven, in a sense thatwe want to see what's strategic,
what's effective, the quickestway to plant churches, the
quickest way to do this,whatever it is, or even the
worship music that's beingcreated today.
That is problematic.
So what we're seeing is, onceguys are trained to teach the
(38:37):
Word, they begin to recognize.
Wow, how we're approachingworship doesn't line up with New
Testament priorities.
Oh, the way we're counselingpeople, the way we're dealing
with marriage, the way we'redealing with parenting, the way
we're doing children's ministrywe're using all these tools the
West is creating.
But there's a disconnect,sometimes, not always, and so
(39:02):
what we're seeing them do is tobe more discerning and say how
should we do worship, how shouldwe do these other areas of
ministry?
Now, when a church begins tomature so that there's integrity
, where the authority of God'sWord drives everything, now you
have people being sanctified inthe truth in a really exciting
way, and then that church, Ithink, is a 1 John 4 kind of
(39:27):
church where they put on displaythe character of God, they
reveal the Father, just asChrist did in the incarnation.
Now the church is to reveal theFather and as Christ did in the
incarnation.
Now the church is to reveal theFather.
And how we live in communitywith each other in accord with
God's word is what gives ourgospel witness validity.
(39:48):
We all know the greatestaccusation thrown at us
believers is hypocrisy.
So for the church to accomplishits purpose in the world and
the advancement of the gospel,it's not just sound preaching,
it's a biblical philosophy,ministry.
People sanctify it in the truth.
There's a practicing of the oneanother's in a way that then,
when they go out and declare thegospel of God, they don't talk
(40:11):
about a God that just, is lovingand merciful and kind and
forgiving, and all of hisattributes.
They actually live thoseattributes out, which are the
fruit of the Spirit in practice,and the combination of their
living testimony and theproclamation of the character of
God is what has power in theirvillage or their community and
(40:35):
so forth.
So what we're aiming for rightnow, and to kind of bring into
focus, I would say, then, maturechurches become sending
churches.
People are on missionevangelists in their own local
lives and spheres.
They become church plantingchurches to reproduce the church
and they become missionarysending churches.
(40:55):
So, as I look to the horizon,what we're talking about is
we're seeing now people beingsent out from the churches where
we've trained the pastors andleadership to go to reach the
unreached people groups or theunevangelized people groups.
And what's exciting about thatis these people they already
(41:17):
live at the local economic level.
So funding is a whole differentendeavor, being a more
achievable endeavor.
They also speak the language ora like dialect.
They understand the worldviewwhere the truth needs to be
applied and corrected, and we'reseeing people being sent out
(41:38):
that we've trained who are nowdoing Bible translation work,
church planting, missionarysending the things the Western
church has been doing for almost300 years.
Now we're seeing nationalchurches do that and I think
they're going to have a morefar-reaching impact into
unreached people, groups andunevangelized groups then if we
(41:59):
only focus our attention onrecruiting and sending Americans
I'm not opposed to that, I'vebeen doing that for 30-some
years, but this has kind of beensomething as close as I am to
it.
That has been a surprise to me.
I didn't expect this and Iregret that because I shouldn't
have known better.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Back to your humility right there, mark.
I don't know about that, butit's exciting to see, no doubt.
Well, hey, I'm going to cut youoff right here just because I
can feel the stories coming.
So let's cut this in.
We'll do another episode in twoweeks.
We're going to go a level downto the ground of the actual
stories of some of the people.
(42:37):
I want to give Mark anopportunity to tell some of the
stories of some of the peoplethat he's worked with, some of
the pastors and the locals, andhow those churches have matured
and become sending churches andnow have grown and gone into
their neighboring communities.
And so, mark, as a tradition onour podcast, would you pray for
the listeners on our way out?
And then, guys, we'll see allof you again in two weeks.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
I'd be glad to Thank you.
Let's pray, father.
I am considering those whomight be listening to this and
so grateful for theirfaithfulness in ministry, their
love for Christ, their devotionto his word.
Many of them are making suchgreat sacrifices personally to
be on the field, and I know theydo that gladly in service to
(43:20):
Christ, and so thank you forthem.
For those who are pastoringchurches, who are participating
in this enterprise, uphold them,strengthen them, help them to
be effective where you've setthem, and then those of us who
are senders by way of prayersand financial support, continue
to help us be faithful and goodstewards of where we put our
resources, that it might reallystrengthen your church for your
(43:41):
glory, and we ask this inChrist's name, amen.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Amen.
Thank you for listening toUnreached.
Our sincere desire is that whatyou've heard today will cause
you to see the mission of Goddifferently and your role in it
more clearly.
If this adds value for you andwe hope it does would you please
rate and review the podcastwherever you listen.
Also, share with your family,your friends, your church, your
life group, small group, d group, wherever you do life, and if
(44:06):
you want to connect with us,find us on Instagram at
unreachedpodcast, or email us atunreachedpodcast at gmailcom.
You, you.
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