October 17, 2024 • 39 mins
At work, we all want to be respected, heard, and taken seriously. But for people from non-dominant groups, especially women, gaining respect is anything but straightforward. How can one be seen as competent and assertive, without being labeled as aggressive—or maybe worse, unlikeable?
In this first episode of Season 3, J.B. and Molly are joined by Dr. Alison Fragale, distinguished professor of organizational psychology and author of Likeable Badass, to discuss practical ways women, and their allies and managers, can shift perceptions of status, power, and likeability in the workplace.
"Status exists only in other people's brains... it comes from people believing that you care and that you have a capacity to deliver." - Dr. Alison Fragale
- Follow Alison on LinkedIn, Instagram or on Peloton @afbomb
- Likeable Badass is available everywhere books are sold!
- Sign up for Alison's newsletter, The Upper Hand (Behavioral Science to help Women Excel) at alisonfragale.com
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
J.B. (00:05):
This is Unserious At work.
We all want to be respected,heard and taken seriously, but
for people from non-dominantgroups, especially women,
gaining respect is anything butstraightforward.
How can one be seen ascompetent and assertive without
(00:29):
being labeled as aggressive or,maybe worse, unlikable?
How do perceptions of status,power and likability impact
women in the workplace, and whatcan be done to shift those
perceptions in their favor?
I'm JB Skelton, joined by MollyMcMahon.
Hi everyone.
If you're lucky, you get a fewteachers in life that are so
(00:50):
special their lessons resonatedecades later.
For me, dr Alison Fregale isone of those teachers.
She's a distinguished professorof organizational psychology
and author of Likeable Badass,which came out in September and
is already a national bestseller.
The book offers a practicalroadmap for women and their
allies and managers to navigatethrough these tough dynamics.
(01:14):
Welcome to Unserious Allison.
Allison (01:17):
Oh my goodness, thank you for having me.
This is so fun.
J.B. (01:20):
First off, massive congratulations on the book.
I loved it.
I'll have you know.
You're still sitting on myshoulder every time I'm in a
negotiation, quietly remindingme to shore up my BATNA, which
is the best alternative to anegotiated agreement everyone,
and to ask for what I want.
So thank you for that.
Allison (01:39):
Well, I'm very happy to hear that, and I think that the
acronym BATNA is like.
If people only remember threethings from business school,
it's like always in the topthree and pretty much worth the
tuition right there.
So there you go, you're welcome.
J.B. (01:50):
Yeah, exactly.
So the concept of likability atwork is sensitive for a lot of
women, as well as for people ofcolor and for queer people.
We've all walked into countlessrooms full of people who don't
look like us.
Walked into countless roomsfull of people who don't look
like us and one of the firstthings that we always think is
are they going to like me?
I stopped giving a shit becauseI felt like it was an
(02:12):
unproductive set of feelings.
So does likability still matter?
Allison (02:17):
Yes, it does, and but it's not likability as a precise
point defined.
So to call the book something,I called it likable badass.
I did that because it's catchy.
People remember it, people likeit.
However, it also hasunderpinnings in psychology,
which is my field, and so theidea is this this is
fundamentally a book and an ideaabout status, which is being
(02:41):
respected and valued by otherpeople.
That matters tremendously.
It matters for our careersuccess, but it also matters for
our physical and mental health.
Status is a fundamental humanneed that all people seek, and I
always say that living a lifewithout respect or power, which
is having control, is just asdamaging as living a life
without friends, and so thechallenge of status is it exists
(03:05):
only in other people's brains.
It is how much you arerespected and regarded by other
people.
It is a decision that otherpeople get to make about us.
That affects our quality oflife, and when you know that you
are not valued, you are notrespected.
It's a terrible feeling.
It often leads people to leavetheir workplaces if they feel
like they can't change it.
But it exists in other people'sheads.
(03:25):
So where does status come from?
It comes from people believingtwo things about you believing
that you care about them, careabout people other than yourself
, and that you have a capacityto deliver.
If you know if needed to,you're capable of getting things
done.
And so the title of the book isabout those two dimensions.
So the surefire way to getpeople to respect you is to get
(03:47):
them to believe that you careabout people other than yourself
and that you're good at gettingthings done.
So I called it likable badassas a reference to those two
things.
But it doesn't mean you have tobe win a popularity contest.
It doesn't mean you have to be,like you know, the king or
queen of the prom.
It means that you need to finda way to convince other people
(04:07):
that you don't just care aboutyourself.
So in that sense, it stillmatters.
And this idea of I've tried forso long to get people to see me
a particular way and they're not, so hell with it.
Right Is a temptation, right,and I get.
But what I want to say is it'sa temptation that probably
(04:29):
doesn't serve us that well inthe long run, because so much of
our success is determined bywhat other people think and we
just don't have the luxury ofturning in and becoming an
island of one, and so what Ihelp people try to understand is
if you're not getting theresults you got, it's not your
fault.
We right, we have biased brains.
But there might be another pathforward that feels just as fun
(04:53):
and just as authentic as, andperhaps even easier than, trying
to stop caring what otherpeople think, because we're all
kind of wired to care what otherpeople think.
It's not really that easy to do.
So we can.
We can kind of unpack it, butit doesn't mean you have to be
just likable, like you have towear pastels or you have to
smile.
It means you have to find yourauthentic way to convince your
audience.
You care about them, and if youdo, you will get more respect
(05:17):
for that what?
Molly (05:19):
what are ways that folks can identify what their
authentic way of showing up is?
Allison (05:26):
So if you've ever read Bob Cialdini Bob Cialdini is a
psychologist who is the kind ofthe like seminal work and
influence, and he wrote a bookcalled the Psychology of
Persuasion years ago.
He looks at six differentthings that cause people to say
yes to you or to do what youwant them to do.
Liking is one of the six.
People do things for peoplethey like.
All the time You've experiencedthis.
If someone asks you forsomething you really like, the
(05:49):
person and the ask is a littlebit inconvenient, you're much
more likely to take the extraeffort to do it if you like them
, and if you don't like them,you're like sorry, can't do it,
or maybe you don't even respond.
So liking is hugely importantfor influence, so it's not wrong
to be concerned about it.
It does help us get more thingsdone.
People you want to interactwith people.
You enjoy, and so does everyoneelse, and so if they enjoy you,
(06:11):
it's going to have a lot of goodfor you.
Okay.
So the and I also fiercelybelieve in the idea of
authenticity is you've got to beyou.
And the beauty of these twodimensions I, I, I broaden them
in the book beyond likable,likable and badass.
I call them warm and assertive.
But anyway, the beauty of thesetwo dimensions is they're not
single point characteristics.
(06:32):
Like you can be likable, youcan be helpful, you can be
sincere, you can be honest, youcan be grateful, you can be
agreeable, you can do differentthings.
So where do we start withauthenticity?
You start with an audit of howyou naturally show up on these
two dimensions.
So I would tell people and ifthey, you know, if they were
digging into the book, theycould get some more specifics.
But the general idea is payattention to yourself for a week
, because if I said to you uh,how many cups of coffee did you
(06:56):
have yesterday?
Okay, give me your.
You guys can both give me youranswer one, okay.
Jb says three, okay.
So everyone can answer thatquestion roughly.
Maybe they miss a cup ifthey're big, if they drink a lot
, right, um, so everyone cananswer that question roughly.
Maybe they miss a cup if theydrink a lot, right, so fine.
Everyone can answer thatquestion.
But if I say to you, like, howmany times did you offer a
compliment, how many times didyou think something positive
yesterday but you didn't say itlike about somebody, you
(07:18):
probably couldn't give me ananswer, which means that how
you're showing up is a bit onautopilot right now.
So first thing I would havepeople do is just turn your
attention and just for a weekobserve yourself, jot things
down Like what am I doing?
That's naturally very warm andcaring and giving, and what am I
doing?
That's naturally very assertiveand a little more powerful, and
then just see what those thingsare.
And then that's the first stepto just say what's my baseline,
(07:42):
yeah, and then sometimes all youhave to do is amplify what
you're already doing.
So you know, I love, you knowgiving compliments, I love
making introductions.
Yeah, I like being on socialmedia, like hurting people,
stuff and thumbs upping andcommenting, and I just think how
can I do a little bit more ofwhat I already do with a little
bit more intention and frequency, and that could be my way.
(08:03):
What do I not like?
I don't like talking on thephone, I don't like writing
thank you notes, I don't.
You know, I don't like a lot ofthings that involve like face
to face interaction with people,anyway.
So it's all to say, do what youlike.
But you got to start byfiguring out what it is and then
think about how could I justlead into it a little bit more.
Molly (08:24):
Does working remote or being on digital teams influence
that?
Allison (08:27):
Sometimes some of that, like the, feels happen in real
life different than they do invirtual spaces we just do an
email or we do a Zoom, becausethat's what we're used to, but
(08:47):
there's no reason that wecouldn't do something else.
An email could become a phonecall or in some cases, a Zoom
could become a meeting.
If I go to the office and yougo to the office, or we meet for
coffee, and so you can at leastthink about should I negotiate
the medium if I could?
That's the first question.
Second is if you're stuck in amedium and it can't change it,
then I would ask myself whatwould I be doing if I were in my
best medium?
(09:08):
So let's say I'm a goodface-to-face person.
What would I be doing if I wereface-to-face?
And what's the best analog forthat, like, what's the best
approximation of that?
And a lot of times you can findone if you do it.
So maybe it's you know I'm agood hallway chatter, but you
know I chat up people in thehallway or something like that.
Okay, well, you don't have ahallway and, yeah, you don't
have the coming and going formeeting, but maybe you could
(09:30):
make a goal of every time youcan log into a zoom room five
minutes before a meeting,because sometimes other people
log in early too, and there'snothing to do, and then you're
just like on your email but Icould chat with you or you know,
or I could invite people tojust say, hey, like once a week
thing on my calendar, likeeveryone can drop in and like
(09:52):
we're all drinking our coffee oreating our lunch or whatever.
Molly (09:54):
But I would just think about things that you could do
From, like, a female perspective.
How do we make sure that thatcare is not undermining our role
but actually continuing toelevate us in our professional
journey?
Allison (10:05):
There's no doubt that you know.
First of all, there are no morecaring people than the most
caring people in the world arewomen that care deeply about
being able to be other oriented.
They're expected to be, they'resocialized to be, they're
raised to be like, they areraised to give, and because of
that we often giveindiscriminately and we are
asked to give more and what wegive is appreciated less, and
that's been well documented bylots of people.
One of the books just sittingoutside my reach here is the no
(10:27):
Club by four academics and thesubtitle is putting a stop to
women's dead end work.
Basically about this exactpoint, which is women are given
more what they call nonpromotable work advances the
group or the organization, butit does nothing for your career.
Women are given more of that,they take it on, it derails
their careers and it needs tostop.
This is the deal.
It's not giving more, it'sgiving more assertively or
(10:49):
giving more capably.
Because you know I lay out thegraph is these two dimensions
like an X Y axis, so there aretwo spaces.
We often treat likability likeit's the opposite of competence.
It's not, it's not either, orit's how do I do something
that's other oriented to you.
That also shows my capability,yeah.
So an example that I talk aboutum frequently is the distinction
(11:11):
between buying somebody coffeeand making an introduction.
So in a face-to-face world notuncommon you meet someone for
coffee.
If it's a friend orprofessional right, you might
offer to buy their coffee andyou're like, oh, I'll get it,
I'll get it Whatever, okay.
So one person might typicallybuy.
You might say I bought yourcoffee, like I did a nice thing.
That's warm, it's likable, itis.
The problem is anyone couldhave bought that coffee, right?
Any other person they met with,any other person in line, could
(11:33):
have bought the coffee.
It's just not unique enough toyou to give you any credit for
being capable.
But instead of buying coffee,what if, at the end of every
meeting with a new acquaintance,you said, hmm, who can I
introduce them to?
That they might benefit, right.
So in our case, I'd be likethinking like, who do I know in
my network that you probablydon't know?
That could be a spectacularguest?
And at the end I'd be like, hey, could I introduce you to so
(11:54):
and so, believing that I do thatthis introduction would be
mutually beneficial.
They'd be excited to know you,you'd be excited to know them.
No one generally ever says no.
Yeah, you make the introductionin an email, it takes a minute
and off they go and you'recompletely out of the process
and then they have gone on andthey've met this person.
That's a small tweak.
It costs you less dollars, itdoesn't cost you really any more
time.
But now you've showed up as alittle bit unique, which is I
(12:16):
know someone you don't know.
I'm capable, my network is asource of advantage.
So what I teach try to tellpeople to do is don't just like
woman, right, but what you dowant to look for is ways that
things that you're authenticallyexcited about and you're good
at could be tweaked to be ofservice to other people.
So that's what I would havepeople look for is ways to give
(12:38):
that showcase what you can dospecifically that they highly
value, not just like I'm buyingcoffee, I'm taking the notes,
because it's too that you're tooreplaceable in those things.
You got to do something whereyou're a little more unique.
J.B. (12:57):
We play a quick fire game with our guests here called Hire
Fire Boss.
We're going to give you ahypothetical task and some
candidates fictional or real,dead or alive to accomplish that
task, you must hire one, fireone, and one of them is going to
be your boss.
So the job today is to developand launch a train-the-trainer
(13:22):
program to upskill likable,badass L&D instructors at
Fortune 500 companies across theworld, and the category for
your candidates are an array ofAllison's passions.
So first we have Michael Jordanfrom the Chicago Bulls.
Allison (13:41):
Okay, Second, we have Tara.
I'm literally leaning in here,my shoulders are hunched.
I cannot wait to hear wherethese are going.
Okay, got it.
J.B. (13:48):
Second is Terry Bradshaw from pittsburgh sealers and
third is b arthur from thegolden girls it's a dream team
dream is a hundred percent adream team, okay, so you have
fire one, fire one, and one ofthem is going to be your boss.
Allison (14:07):
Okay, I'm.
I'm hiring Michael Jordan, I'mfiring Terry and B-Earth is my
boss.
J.B. (14:16):
Why fire Terry?
Allison (14:18):
Well, I had to fire somebody.
So here's how I'm thinkingabout this.
I don't want Michael Jordan tobe our boss.
Cause my boss?
Because I've watched what'sthat show called the Last Dance.
I don't think Michael Jordan isa person one wants to work for.
No, I admire his intensity atgetting a job done, so I think
that intensity for being theperson who's running the thing
could be really good.
Be Arthur is, of course, myfuture self, so I felt like we
(14:44):
would get along.
Famously, and everyone wants aboss that they love, and so, by
process of elimination, terry'sgot to go.
I do really like Terry, but hewas on the Masked Singer and he
has a reality show, so I feellike he could be like a little I
don't know, a little hard tomanage.
Molly (15:00):
I also had Bea Arthur.
Am I saying this correctly?
That feels hard to say today.
I'm, you know, I'm going tohave Compared to Dorothy's
Bornack.
J.B. (15:09):
Yeah, that feels hard to say today I'm, you know I'm
gonna compare to dorothy'sbornack, yeah two very easy
names off the top.
Molly (15:13):
Yes, um, I would like to have be arthur, be um the boss,
like I was.
Like, yeah, I feel like you'dknow exactly where you were at
all times.
It should be a pretty openlistener.
She's real pragmatic.
J.B. (15:23):
Um, yeah, I mean I I am advice, yeah, and I feel like my
future is also as a golden girl, if I'm not one already right
now.
Molly (15:33):
Um, I fired Michael Jordan, which breaks my heart,
because I grew up sleeping undera Michael Jordan poster and I
love him, but I think that hehe's got to go, go off and do
his own magic, his intensity,somewhere else.
I think, terry, I put TerryBradshaw in on the team because
(15:56):
I think he's still prettyindustrious he's.
I think he's making lots ofentrepreneurial moves, seems
like the likeability factorfeels real high, I think.
I think Michael Jordan's got tolike do his thing.
J.B. (16:12):
I don't think Michael Jordan is as engaged with the
world right now around him.
Allison (16:18):
That could be.
I mean, I'm not a Terry hater,I love Terry.
I mean again.
No, yeah, yeah yeah, those arethe namesakes of me, as you know
, of my two.
I'm sure that's why you pickedthem of my oldest child
namesakes of me, as you know, ofmy two.
I'm sure that's why you pickedthem of my oldest child.
Um, but all I will say is Ijust remember the line from the
last dance when michael jordansaid there's no I in team and he
said but there is.
Molly (16:38):
And when yeah, said like only michael jordan good yeah,
oh yeah, I feel like.
Um, I feel like if I was hiringmichael jordan, I'd first want
to go have a conversation withScottie Pippen about what the
experience was, about what itwas like.
Allison (16:53):
But isn't now Scottie Pippen's?
No, my Michael Jordan's ex-wifeis dating Scottie Pippen's son,
right, yeah, yeah, fact checkthat.
Yeah, do you have fact checkersworking behind the scene?
I mean, I was told that there'ssome truth to that.
Molly (17:09):
Yeah, that's just to fuel the fire.
That's the Chicago line.
Let me tell you what'shappening in Chicago.
J.B. (17:16):
Yeah, I don't know.
Well, she's in Chicago andshe's telling us now yeah,
that's.
Allison (17:20):
That's, that's the word on the street.
This is, by the way, alreadylike the most fun I've ever had
podcasting.
This is quite amazing.
I'm really waiting at the end,where you're going to decide
that there needs to be anotherco-host, and it's going to be me
.
J.B. (17:42):
How do you begin understanding your status in an
organization?
Allison (17:46):
You generally have a sense of whether somebody values
you because you get signals.
Now the signals that we valueor don't value someone can be
subtle, but we talk about them alot.
We know they exist.
You get interrupted, you getsome gendered terms, you get
heap heated, you get mansplained, you get cut out of the
information flow.
These kinds of things, theseare clues that people look
toward to say people don'trespect me.
(18:06):
Or, when you talk, do peopleactually think your ideas want a
validity or do they just kindof pass it on, even if they
don't interrupt you?
So we get signals from ourenvironment that we are valued
or not and they lift us or theycause us to sink inward.
You know, if we go into ameeting, we think people here
don't value me and then you stoptalking, you stop contributing,
you start hedging everything,no-transcript taking in about
(18:58):
you.
The two channels of informationare everything you put out into
the world about yourself.
So, as an example, we arehaving this conversation here.
People will listen to it.
You are going to show up in away, from everything from the
tone of voice, the way you askthe question, how you respond to
what I say People are drawingconclusions about you and that's
your channel.
And then the second one isthings other people say about
(19:19):
you generally when you're notaround, and those are the two
ways, right, that people learnabout you.
So JB and I go way back, but inmany cases I've done a podcast
where people did not know me.
But how did I get on thosepodcasts?
Oftentimes because someone whoknew the person who hosted it
said hey, I think Allison wouldbe good.
That's what I call otherpromotion.
(19:39):
That's someone else vouchingfor me.
And then and I'm sure this hashappened to you in your own work
when someone vouches, you'relike I don't know the person,
but I trust the person doing thevouching, so I'm interested.
And when you meet with that now, that stranger who's now come
into your life, they alreadystart with a bit of a status
bump in your eyes.
Why?
Because someone else told youthey were amazing.
Yeah, and so those are the twochannels.
(20:01):
So what we want to think aboutis controlling both to the
greatest extent possible in anauthentic way and with the, the,
the things I put out in theworld.
That's where we're going to usea term like self-presentation
or self-promotion to talk aboutthings.
And then you were asking thequestion about authenticity.
You know, like doing theauthentically caring things, the
authentically capable things,so that people see you doing
(20:22):
that.
So if someone sees you, someonesees you using your Instagram
knowledge to help them, or thatyou actually they're the
beneficiary, that's going topositively change how they think
.
But the other one ofcontrolling how other people
think I'm going to say somethingI think is going to like give
JB shivers, because if you don't, if you said like you know, I
just don't care what peoplethink about me.
then I say imagine peopletalking about you behind your
(20:43):
back and you're like right it'sso middle, it's so middle school
, right it's so awful.
But here's what I want to say ishaving people talk about you
behind your back in a good wayis one of the most powerful
things that can happen forbuilding your brand.
First of all, it's superefficient.
And it's super effectivebecause when another person
talks about you, there is nolimit to how positive they can
(21:05):
be without there being anynegative implications for your
warmth and humility.
They can just be like these arethe most amazing humans that
have ever walked the face of theearth, and even if the person
thinks it's hyperbole, none ofit is going to make you seem
less warm.
So it's what I help people dois to think about how you could
get more systematic in gettingother people to talk about you
(21:25):
behind your back, because whenit happens and you know it,
you're like oh, so-and-so, justtold me how awesome you are.
You feel so touched, butimagine we can influence it.
We can start making it happenmore often.
So those are the two channels.
Molly (21:35):
I'm currently in a role where my expertise is new or
different inside of theorganization, and so I have
realized that I do need to havefolks talking about me in their
terms, so that people understandhow they can utilize and
activate me in the right ways.
Allison (21:52):
And yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think I mean just so thatyou feel like I'll just do some
coaching here for everyone elseOkay, so there's two.
There's two ways to do it.
This is a perfect example.
You have new expertise, right,but people may not know how to
evaluate that because it is newand they don't know what you,
what exactly you bring you need.
You need a sales.
You know you need some salespitch on this.
(22:12):
Yeah, right, okay.
So how do we get other peopleto start talking us up?
Um one, talk them up first.
So every time you interact withsomebody, it's amazing to find
somebody else to tell.
So when you're doing, you'reinteracting with these people,
like tell them, tell their boss,tell their friends, because
they'll find out, whether it'son an email or you just someone
says, you know, oh, molly wasjust talking about you.
(22:33):
And then reciprocity back toBob Cialdini, which you should
go buy that book Influence.
Yeah, reciprocity is anotherbasis of influence.
We do things for people becausethey've done them for us, and so
if you're talking up people,then they will talk you up.
So one of the and thatgenerally for most people feels
super authentic.
Like, I'm not asking you totalk about people you hate or
(22:53):
lie about them.
It's just when you thinkpositive things about them, tell
other people very authentic, norisk whatsoever and also very
strategic that it comes back toyou.
It ends up being a really funway to live and you get that
benefit.
So that's one way to do it.
The second way is to get alittle more explicit and to ask
them, and I do this all the time.
(23:14):
So again, negotiation is notjust for salaries, cars and
houses.
It's for anything that hasvalue in your life.
And sometimes what has value isfor us to say I need an intro,
I need someone to talk me up.
So to say to somebody my expertI'm new and my expertise is is
new People are not going tounderstand what I do, partly
maybe because maybe I don'tspeak enough of the internal
(23:36):
language or their language.
You speak their language andyou are very respected by them.
When you tell them I am great,uh, they will listen.
Now, I would only do that whenI'm confident that the person
I'm asking already thinks I'mgreat, yeah, and I know that
they really respect what I do.
And once I say that people aregrateful, they're almost
tripping over themselves to doit, because one people like
(23:57):
clarity.
People wouldn't ever occur tothem to go say that about you,
but now you've told themsomething very specific which is
very easy for them.
You just want me to tell thethoughts I already have in my
head to another person andyou'll be really grateful for
that.
Oh, that's cool, I can do it.
And then it happens maybe andyou know it's I tell them, like,
pick your moment, but the nexttime you're in a conversation
(24:18):
with this person where it feelsnatural they really value you
and hearing it from you, I think, will really impact.
And then here's where you canemphasize the caring part of
your own storytelling.
The more they believe it, themore opportunities I will have
to add my value to theorganization and make the
organization better.
Right, it's not just about,like I want you know, to be
rewarded.
It's if they don't understandwhat I do, I will be
(24:39):
underutilized and that's bad forthe organization.
So you can always tell a storyto them about how this, how this
still comes back to enablingyou to be even more caring.
J.B. (25:02):
I love, allison, how you insert plays into the book and
the play that I tried out.
That I loved was the self-talkaudit, which and what I learned
in that was how much I diminishand dismiss my own contributions
.
Whenever somebody thanks me forsomething, my immediate
(25:26):
response is oh, it was nothing,no biggie, and it took my
eight-year-old neighbor whotakes my dog out for a walk.
Every once in a while she comesback and I thank her profusely
for playing with my multi-pooand what she does is she just
looks me dead in the eye and shejust is like you're welcome.
Allison (25:49):
That's not where I thought this story was going,
but I love it.
Molly (25:54):
No, me neither.
J.B. (25:55):
And I was like that is the response that I should be
delivering every single time.
And it was simple, it was tothe point, I loved it and I was
like, oh my God, I feel socalled out by this little girl,
and there's something along theway that obviously we unlearn to
(26:18):
diminish our contributions.
Anyhow, what are some of theother plays that we should be
doing besides this one, becauseI think that they're so valuable
.
Allison (26:27):
So the idea of I make an analogy to managing status as
a game and there was onedefinition turns out that if you
are in the game world, there'snot a unified definition of
what's a game, just like there'soften not a unified definition
of anything.
In the game world there's not aunified definition of what's a
game, just like there's oftennot a unified definition of
anything, but one of thedefinitions that does have some
support and traction that Ireally liked was a game is a
problem solving activity,approach with a playful intent,
(26:48):
and I thought, ah, isn't thatgreat.
Like you can have seriousproblems, but you can approach
them with joy and authenticity.
And not being respected is aserious problem.
It diminishes people's lives.
That said, the approach ofgetting status can be done with
some joy and not that is it.
Like I love Instagram, like Iam basically going to help
(27:09):
people on their Instagram andlike that brings me joy and
that's who I am, you know, andthat that in itself is doing
something.
So I go to the idea of plays,of things that are, if we use
status as a game, a problem withapproach with a playful intent.
What are some of the plays andtools?
And so I do offer people ideasand I always say some people,
when we talk about these things,the entire conversation is just
(27:31):
causing like hives and they'revery fearful of saying anything
positive about themselves or net.
You know those things.
I say, Okay, let's start withsome low heat things that you
can do, like one, just observeyourself for a week and just see
what you're doing, so like it'slike very low heat, you don't
even have to do anything, youjust had to pay attention.
Higher heat things going intoplaces with complete strangers
that you would never see againand you know, trying to advocate
(27:51):
for yourself or if you say,telling my story and talking
about myself is very difficult.
I'm like go do it on anairplane, go do it on a bus, go
do it at the DMV you'll neversee those people and start up a
conversation, chat with them andtry it out, you know, and then
then then leave.
So those are low heat things.
And then for people who thinkI'm really good at that I'm
naturally very skilled I think,okay, let's try some some higher
(28:12):
heat things, like reaching outto people that we don't yet know
and asking them, you know, tohelp us, or negotiating for
something that's reallyimportant to us with somebody
that is a meaningfulrelationship in our life, things
like that.
So you can always turn up theheat.
First, I would start with whatof the two dimensions showing
that you care or showing thatyou're really capable and
(28:34):
assertive which one feels easierand more natural to you?
And then and then I would focuson the other dimension.
So if you say like care, soI'll use Molly.
I think care sounds like it'skind of very natural for you and
you're like okay, but I need tomake sure that I'm being
sufficient, like showing off mycapability and being
sufficiently assertive and nottaking advantage of.
So how do I do that?
How do I lean into that?
(28:55):
And that's where I would startwith some plays of what could I
practice or try?
And as an academic, as anexperimentalist, I love the idea
of you just try one thing andyou see what the results are.
Molly (29:06):
Well, so I'm in a lot of meetings where people talk a lot
because it's cross-functionalteams coming together to work
with one another and I thinkthey're all everyone's also
trying to prove themselves toone another because they're also
meeting one another.
I often facilitate, I often amthe one who follows up with
notes.
I'm I usually bringingeverybody along on the journey,
(29:28):
but I rarely participate in theconversation because it's hard
to like butt in.
But I think I do need tointerrupt and get in there
because I do have a lot to offeralso to those conversations.
Allison (29:38):
So I need to test it out and get in there, because I
do have a lot to offer also tothose conversations.
So I need to test it out, yes,and not to again, not to do too
much coaching, but just in the,in the spirit of to everybody I
would say one try to talk withinthe first five minutes, because
being a spectator is a learnedbehavior, so the longer you've
sat there quiet, the moremomentous it is when you speak.
So even if the thing you'resaying is simply about like
chatting about your day orwhatever it is like, when you
(29:59):
start to have a habit ofspeaking, then it kind of
continues yep.
And the other one is to thinkabout can you give yourself a
role where you are speaking more, but maybe not because you're
delivering content, but simplybecause you are structuring the
conversation?
So I'm the agenda keeper.
So here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna do this, and then Ineed to make sure we go back to
(30:20):
so and so can I.
You get your comment again sothat we make sure there's no
questions on that, and thenyou're not really actually
adding content, but you'respeaking and your voice is heard
and you're organizing andyou're in that.
That could be a way more tojust get in the habit of I
contribute in these things andthen it's not as, and then it's
more natural extension from nowI really have a point to add,
and then you know.
(30:40):
Final one is just to say youknow one, one point of value in
every single meeting, like I'vedone, I've added one.
If I add one, I'm like, yeah,I'm good.
J.B. (30:48):
So, alison, at one point in the book you lay out several
scenarios that clearlyillustrate how challenging and
complex it can be to beperceived as warm and assertive
at work, and I'll run throughthese scenarios.
One should I turn out arelocation for family
obligations if it riskscoworkers, family or friends
(31:09):
seeing me as less ambitious?
Should I speak up in meetingwith an alternative to my
colleague's proposal if it risksher seeing me as less of a team
player?
Should I accept the stretchassignment when I know I'll have
a steep learning curve if itrisks her seeing me as less of a
team player?
Should I accept the stretchassignment when I know I'll have
a steep learning curve if itrisks my new boss seeing me as
inept?
Should I stand up for someonethat I think is being
(31:30):
undervalued if it risks me beingseen as difficult?
How should women think aboutchallenges like these?
How do you leverage likablebadassery to work through these?
Allison (31:47):
Molly is again our last in case study is also in a high
stakes but beautiful momentright now, because when you're
new and people don't know you,that's where you have the
easiest opportunity to shape toyour point about first
impressions, shape how peoplesee you, that then you can ride
for years and years and years,and so that investment at the
beginning can be really useful.
But once status is established,there's this concern.
And in that same part of thebook I quote Amy Shulman, who
was a general counsel at Pfizer,at one point and she said women
(32:11):
hoard.
She was talking about status,but she said women hoard favors
as if they are airline miles,that for women to be respected
it takes so much work.
And then, once you feelrespected, you don't want to
lose it, you don't want to gobackwards, and so then we end up
hoarding this resource statusas a resource, money as a
resource, health as a resource.
We hoard the resource becausewe think it's finite, it's going
(32:32):
to go away, I can't spend it.
But if we do that, then whyhave it at all right?
The whole point of it is to beable to use it to live your best
life, and so what I help peoplethink about in answering these
kinds of questions that are hardand there are some of the like.
I put those in there becauseI've seen women wrestle with
them.
I've wrestled with every singleone of them at some point.
What makes them hard is notknowing what we're working for.
(32:56):
We're making that decision inthe moment and we're working for
.
We're making that decision inthe moment and we're trying to
think like what will they think?
Do they like me?
And then, to your point JB, yousay, just screw it.
You know who cares what peoplethink.
The way I think people should doit is to start by setting some
longer term goals that you havegoals for your career and goals
for your life.
What do I want out of my life?
So I'll give you a parentingexample for myself.
(33:17):
For parents, one conundrum thatthey have is this idea of like
being gone at work versus beingpresent for your kids' moments.
And should I do these things ifI'm going to spend more time or
take a job that has travel andI won't be around as much for my
kids?
One thing I was very clear onby because I did these kind of
(33:38):
thoughts about what do I want myfuture life to look like, and
how do I then these kind ofthoughts about what do I want my
future life to look like andhow do I then work back for
today of what's worth doing andnot doing?
I realized that a veryimportant thing to me is to have
strong relationships with myadult children.
My kids are not adults yet.
They range from nine to 15.
That was my goal, and so thathas been a guidance for me when
I make decisions about should Itake hits in my career for
(34:00):
something that's going to bepersonal in my family?
Something that matters to a lotof parents is to be there for
their child's first, first word,first step, first thing.
I'm like you know what my kidsaren't going to remember.
Any of that.
Whether I was there or notthere won't affect whether they
see me as an adult and how theysee me as an adult.
If they see me as an adult andif your child is developing as
(34:22):
one would expect, all the kidswill eventually do that.
So it's not actually reallythat unique or special that they
said a word or they stepped,and so I said you know what
that's not going to be, whereI'm going to spend my status at
work, where I'm going to riskbeing seen as less capable
because I'm not around for thatstuff.
It just doesn't matter to meNow.
It could matter greatly toanother parent and that would be
an equally valid choice.
(34:43):
But because I had thought aboutit, it removed of the what was
my end goal.
It removed a lot of the in themoment anxiety.
If I'm in a meeting and someonesays something that's incorrect,
there's a tendency and I havethis tendency to want to be like
that was wrong.
I'm going to just have tosomehow tell you that it was
wrong.
But when we do that, peopledon't like being told they're
wrong.
They feel embarrassed, theymight like us less, they might
(35:03):
challenge our capability.
It gets into a thing and thequestion is is it worth it?
Because there's lots of wrongthings that happened in the
world.
It's not my job to correct themall.
Is it in some way going toviolate something that I see as
a really important end goal?
Either.
Maybe it's cruel and I thinkit's incredibly important for
who I am that people be treatedwith kindness, and so I will
(35:25):
speak up but maybe it's notcruel.
It's just like an opinion thatI think is weird, and so am I
going to save my status or useit.
On that it's a lot easier ifwe've thought about it in what
we're working towards.
So I have a couple differentexercises I work people through
to think about what's my endgoal and then how does that help
me in the moment.
And I find that when you haveyour end goal in mind, a lot of
(35:45):
the hard decisions don't seemhard anymore, because the one
that's going to further yourfuture state becomes much more
obvious.
J.B. (35:52):
Lauren writes in.
How can I maintain my brand ofbeing an innovator who drives
quality execution at the fastpace of the tech industry
without being perceived as asteamroller who rates low on
teamwork?
Allison (36:06):
So this is a great example of having goals and
saying I want to be seen as aninnovator, I want to be a person
whose accomplishments, whenI've left this organization or
they, have done A, b and Cinnovative things that haven't
happened.
Those are very clear end goals.
Again, I'm going to go back tobasics.
One think about in order foryou to be an innovator, whose
support do you really need andhow do you start building that
(36:28):
support from day one?
By finding easy ways to maketheir life easier.
So, yeah, again, this is anegotiation.
I know what I need from you.
I need you to move fast and Ineed you to be creative and
think outside the box.
But what do you want out ofthis interaction?
What do you need?
How do I go and build yourstatus?
What are your goals?
How can I facilitate what theyare, even just by talking to
other people about how amazingyou are, opening doors for you,
(36:50):
giving opportunities.
So if we think about theserelationships as the ones we
most need, as relationships ofmutual value being exchanged,
you start to solve the problempretty quickly, which is, I know
what I'm going to need from you.
But that's only going to reallybecome a problem if you don't
see yourself getting anythingfrom me.
And so if you're gettingsomething, whatever it is and
(37:11):
again you can be as creative asyou possibly can right, I'm
either helping you with withyour work, I'm talking up, even
I'm just the nicest, mostcomplimentary person that you've
ever interacted with and youjust really like being around me
, because every time you see me,you're just I'm saying
something nice and you know like, or telling you a funny story
and I'm hilarious.
Whatever it is, you enjoy beingin this interaction.
(37:33):
So that's how I would thinkabout it.
But I think one really greatstrength of this question is
this is a person who understandswhat their end goal is, and all
now they need to figure out ishow to, and I think the
capability piece seems takencare of.
It's how to do the care piece,and the care piece doesn't
necessarily mean I have to workat your pace.
It just means I have to havesomething that I'm doing that
(37:55):
shows you that I care about you.
So, again, if all I do is sayfaster, faster, faster, why
isn't this done?
Then that would signal topeople you don't care and that's
why that's a problem.
It's not the speed of work oranything, it's this person
doesn't care about me.
So I would just think I'm goingto assume that this person does
care about other people and ifthey don't, I cannot help them.
They should listen to anothershow.
But if they care about peopleand it's only about having to
(38:18):
communicate that, then you havea lot of different ways.
And I would say this all theseother people that work with you
need to believe you care aboutsomething other than driving
your deadline, and if theybelieve that you do that, then
you can have some leeway in thetiming and the pushing for the
results and still have goodrelationships.
J.B. (38:38):
Thank you so much, Allison , for being on the show.
It was a pleasure to have you.
Allison (38:42):
My pleasure.
It's so good to see you, JB.
J.B. (38:45):
Where can people?
Allison (38:46):
find you.
They can find Likeable Badassanywhere you'd love to buy a
book.
They can find me on my website,alisonforgalecom.
And when you go on my website,I think the three most
interesting buttons to clickwould be to sign up for my
newsletter.
It's a free newsletter.
It's called the Upper Hand.
It's behavioral science to helpwomen excel.
And then, if they wanted tocome along for the ride on
social I'm on LinkedIn andInstagram they could click those
(39:07):
buttons too.
J.B. (39:08):
And if people want to work out with you on Peloton, where
can they find you?
Allison (39:12):
Oh, they can find me under the name AF Bomb.
I've always had to say myinitials are quite apt, don't
you think?
Absolutely.
I've always had to say myinitials are quite apt, don't
you think?
J.B. (39:19):
Absolutely, and that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
(39:39):
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram, at
unseriousfun, or on our websiteat unseriouscom, where you can
find all of our previousepisodes and show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
This is Unserious At work.
We all want to be respected,heard and taken seriously, but
for people from non-dominantgroups, especially women,
gaining respect is anything butstraightforward.
How can one be seen ascompetent and assertive without
(00:29):
being labeled as aggressive or,maybe worse, unlikable?
How do perceptions of status,power and likability impact
women in the workplace, and whatcan be done to shift those
perceptions in their favor?
I'm JB Skelton, joined by MollyMcMahon.
Hi everyone.
If you're lucky, you get a fewteachers in life that are so
(00:50):
special their lessons resonatedecades later.
For me, dr Alison Fregale isone of those teachers.
She's a distinguished professorof organizational psychology
and author of Likeable Badass,which came out in September and
is already a national bestseller.
The book offers a practicalroadmap for women and their
allies and managers to navigatethrough these tough dynamics.
(01:14):
Welcome to Unserious Allison.
Allison (01:17):
Oh my goodness, thank you for having me.
This is so fun.
J.B. (01:20):
First off, massive congratulations on the book.
I loved it.
I'll have you know.
You're still sitting on myshoulder every time I'm in a
negotiation, quietly remindingme to shore up my BATNA, which
is the best alternative to anegotiated agreement everyone,
and to ask for what I want.
So thank you for that.
Allison (01:39):
Well, I'm very happy to hear that, and I think that the
acronym BATNA is like.
If people only remember threethings from business school,
it's like always in the topthree and pretty much worth the
tuition right there.
So there you go, you're welcome.
J.B. (01:50):
Yeah, exactly.
So the concept of likability atwork is sensitive for a lot of
women, as well as for people ofcolor and for queer people.
We've all walked into countlessrooms full of people who don't
look like us.
Walked into countless roomsfull of people who don't look
like us and one of the firstthings that we always think is
are they going to like me?
I stopped giving a shit becauseI felt like it was an
(02:12):
unproductive set of feelings.
So does likability still matter?
Allison (02:17):
Yes, it does, and but it's not likability as a precise
point defined.
So to call the book something,I called it likable badass.
I did that because it's catchy.
People remember it, people likeit.
However, it also hasunderpinnings in psychology,
which is my field, and so theidea is this this is
fundamentally a book and an ideaabout status, which is being
(02:41):
respected and valued by otherpeople.
That matters tremendously.
It matters for our careersuccess, but it also matters for
our physical and mental health.
Status is a fundamental humanneed that all people seek, and I
always say that living a lifewithout respect or power, which
is having control, is just asdamaging as living a life
without friends, and so thechallenge of status is it exists
(03:05):
only in other people's brains.
It is how much you arerespected and regarded by other
people.
It is a decision that otherpeople get to make about us.
That affects our quality oflife, and when you know that you
are not valued, you are notrespected.
It's a terrible feeling.
It often leads people to leavetheir workplaces if they feel
like they can't change it.
But it exists in other people'sheads.
(03:25):
So where does status come from?
It comes from people believingtwo things about you believing
that you care about them, careabout people other than yourself
, and that you have a capacityto deliver.
If you know if needed to,you're capable of getting things
done.
And so the title of the book isabout those two dimensions.
So the surefire way to getpeople to respect you is to get
(03:47):
them to believe that you careabout people other than yourself
and that you're good at gettingthings done.
So I called it likable badassas a reference to those two
things.
But it doesn't mean you have tobe win a popularity contest.
It doesn't mean you have to be,like you know, the king or
queen of the prom.
It means that you need to finda way to convince other people
(04:07):
that you don't just care aboutyourself.
So in that sense, it stillmatters.
And this idea of I've tried forso long to get people to see me
a particular way and they're not, so hell with it.
Right Is a temptation, right,and I get.
But what I want to say is it'sa temptation that probably
(04:29):
doesn't serve us that well inthe long run, because so much of
our success is determined bywhat other people think and we
just don't have the luxury ofturning in and becoming an
island of one, and so what Ihelp people try to understand is
if you're not getting theresults you got, it's not your
fault.
We right, we have biased brains.
But there might be another pathforward that feels just as fun
(04:53):
and just as authentic as, andperhaps even easier than, trying
to stop caring what otherpeople think, because we're all
kind of wired to care what otherpeople think.
It's not really that easy to do.
So we can.
We can kind of unpack it, butit doesn't mean you have to be
just likable, like you have towear pastels or you have to
smile.
It means you have to find yourauthentic way to convince your
audience.
You care about them, and if youdo, you will get more respect
(05:17):
for that what?
Molly (05:19):
what are ways that folks can identify what their
authentic way of showing up is?
Allison (05:26):
So if you've ever read Bob Cialdini Bob Cialdini is a
psychologist who is the kind ofthe like seminal work and
influence, and he wrote a bookcalled the Psychology of
Persuasion years ago.
He looks at six differentthings that cause people to say
yes to you or to do what youwant them to do.
Liking is one of the six.
People do things for peoplethey like.
All the time You've experiencedthis.
If someone asks you forsomething you really like, the
(05:49):
person and the ask is a littlebit inconvenient, you're much
more likely to take the extraeffort to do it if you like them
, and if you don't like them,you're like sorry, can't do it,
or maybe you don't even respond.
So liking is hugely importantfor influence, so it's not wrong
to be concerned about it.
It does help us get more thingsdone.
People you want to interactwith people.
You enjoy, and so does everyoneelse, and so if they enjoy you,
(06:11):
it's going to have a lot of goodfor you.
Okay.
So the and I also fiercelybelieve in the idea of
authenticity is you've got to beyou.
And the beauty of these twodimensions I, I, I broaden them
in the book beyond likable,likable and badass.
I call them warm and assertive.
But anyway, the beauty of thesetwo dimensions is they're not
single point characteristics.
(06:32):
Like you can be likable, youcan be helpful, you can be
sincere, you can be honest, youcan be grateful, you can be
agreeable, you can do differentthings.
So where do we start withauthenticity?
You start with an audit of howyou naturally show up on these
two dimensions.
So I would tell people and ifthey, you know, if they were
digging into the book, theycould get some more specifics.
But the general idea is payattention to yourself for a week
, because if I said to you uh,how many cups of coffee did you
(06:56):
have yesterday?
Okay, give me your.
You guys can both give me youranswer one, okay.
Jb says three, okay.
So everyone can answer thatquestion roughly.
Maybe they miss a cup ifthey're big, if they drink a lot
, right, um, so everyone cananswer that question roughly.
Maybe they miss a cup if theydrink a lot, right, so fine.
Everyone can answer thatquestion.
But if I say to you, like, howmany times did you offer a
compliment, how many times didyou think something positive
yesterday but you didn't say itlike about somebody, you
(07:18):
probably couldn't give me ananswer, which means that how
you're showing up is a bit onautopilot right now.
So first thing I would havepeople do is just turn your
attention and just for a weekobserve yourself, jot things
down Like what am I doing?
That's naturally very warm andcaring and giving, and what am I
doing?
That's naturally very assertiveand a little more powerful, and
then just see what those thingsare.
And then that's the first stepto just say what's my baseline,
(07:42):
yeah, and then sometimes all youhave to do is amplify what
you're already doing.
So you know, I love, you knowgiving compliments, I love
making introductions.
Yeah, I like being on socialmedia, like hurting people,
stuff and thumbs upping andcommenting, and I just think how
can I do a little bit more ofwhat I already do with a little
bit more intention and frequency, and that could be my way.
(08:03):
What do I not like?
I don't like talking on thephone, I don't like writing
thank you notes, I don't.
You know, I don't like a lot ofthings that involve like face
to face interaction with people,anyway.
So it's all to say, do what youlike.
But you got to start byfiguring out what it is and then
think about how could I justlead into it a little bit more.
Molly (08:24):
Does working remote or being on digital teams influence
that?
Allison (08:27):
Sometimes some of that, like the, feels happen in real
life different than they do invirtual spaces we just do an
email or we do a Zoom, becausethat's what we're used to, but
(08:47):
there's no reason that wecouldn't do something else.
An email could become a phonecall or in some cases, a Zoom
could become a meeting.
If I go to the office and yougo to the office, or we meet for
coffee, and so you can at leastthink about should I negotiate
the medium if I could?
That's the first question.
Second is if you're stuck in amedium and it can't change it,
then I would ask myself whatwould I be doing if I were in my
best medium?
(09:08):
So let's say I'm a goodface-to-face person.
What would I be doing if I wereface-to-face?
And what's the best analog forthat, like, what's the best
approximation of that?
And a lot of times you can findone if you do it.
So maybe it's you know I'm agood hallway chatter, but you
know I chat up people in thehallway or something like that.
Okay, well, you don't have ahallway and, yeah, you don't
have the coming and going formeeting, but maybe you could
(09:30):
make a goal of every time youcan log into a zoom room five
minutes before a meeting,because sometimes other people
log in early too, and there'snothing to do, and then you're
just like on your email but Icould chat with you or you know,
or I could invite people tojust say, hey, like once a week
thing on my calendar, likeeveryone can drop in and like
(09:52):
we're all drinking our coffee oreating our lunch or whatever.
Molly (09:54):
But I would just think about things that you could do
From, like, a female perspective.
How do we make sure that thatcare is not undermining our role
but actually continuing toelevate us in our professional
journey?
Allison (10:05):
There's no doubt that you know.
First of all, there are no morecaring people than the most
caring people in the world arewomen that care deeply about
being able to be other oriented.
They're expected to be, they'resocialized to be, they're
raised to be like, they areraised to give, and because of
that we often giveindiscriminately and we are
asked to give more and what wegive is appreciated less, and
that's been well documented bylots of people.
One of the books just sittingoutside my reach here is the no
(10:27):
Club by four academics and thesubtitle is putting a stop to
women's dead end work.
Basically about this exactpoint, which is women are given
more what they call nonpromotable work advances the
group or the organization, butit does nothing for your career.
Women are given more of that,they take it on, it derails
their careers and it needs tostop.
This is the deal.
It's not giving more, it'sgiving more assertively or
(10:49):
giving more capably.
Because you know I lay out thegraph is these two dimensions
like an X Y axis, so there aretwo spaces.
We often treat likability likeit's the opposite of competence.
It's not, it's not either, orit's how do I do something
that's other oriented to you.
That also shows my capability,yeah.
So an example that I talk aboutum frequently is the distinction
(11:11):
between buying somebody coffeeand making an introduction.
So in a face-to-face world notuncommon you meet someone for
coffee.
If it's a friend orprofessional right, you might
offer to buy their coffee andyou're like, oh, I'll get it,
I'll get it Whatever, okay.
So one person might typicallybuy.
You might say I bought yourcoffee, like I did a nice thing.
That's warm, it's likable, itis.
The problem is anyone couldhave bought that coffee, right?
Any other person they met with,any other person in line, could
(11:33):
have bought the coffee.
It's just not unique enough toyou to give you any credit for
being capable.
But instead of buying coffee,what if, at the end of every
meeting with a new acquaintance,you said, hmm, who can I
introduce them to?
That they might benefit, right.
So in our case, I'd be likethinking like, who do I know in
my network that you probablydon't know?
That could be a spectacularguest?
And at the end I'd be like, hey, could I introduce you to so
(11:54):
and so, believing that I do thatthis introduction would be
mutually beneficial.
They'd be excited to know you,you'd be excited to know them.
No one generally ever says no.
Yeah, you make the introductionin an email, it takes a minute
and off they go and you'recompletely out of the process
and then they have gone on andthey've met this person.
That's a small tweak.
It costs you less dollars, itdoesn't cost you really any more
time.
But now you've showed up as alittle bit unique, which is I
(12:16):
know someone you don't know.
I'm capable, my network is asource of advantage.
So what I teach try to tellpeople to do is don't just like
woman, right, but what you dowant to look for is ways that
things that you're authenticallyexcited about and you're good
at could be tweaked to be ofservice to other people.
So that's what I would havepeople look for is ways to give
(12:38):
that showcase what you can dospecifically that they highly
value, not just like I'm buyingcoffee, I'm taking the notes,
because it's too that you're tooreplaceable in those things.
You got to do something whereyou're a little more unique.
J.B. (12:57):
We play a quick fire game with our guests here called Hire
Fire Boss.
We're going to give you ahypothetical task and some
candidates fictional or real,dead or alive to accomplish that
task, you must hire one, fireone, and one of them is going to
be your boss.
So the job today is to developand launch a train-the-trainer
(13:22):
program to upskill likable,badass L&D instructors at
Fortune 500 companies across theworld, and the category for
your candidates are an array ofAllison's passions.
So first we have Michael Jordanfrom the Chicago Bulls.
Allison (13:41):
Okay, Second, we have Tara.
I'm literally leaning in here,my shoulders are hunched.
I cannot wait to hear wherethese are going.
Okay, got it.
J.B. (13:48):
Second is Terry Bradshaw from pittsburgh sealers and
third is b arthur from thegolden girls it's a dream team
dream is a hundred percent adream team, okay, so you have
fire one, fire one, and one ofthem is going to be your boss.
Allison (14:07):
Okay, I'm.
I'm hiring Michael Jordan, I'mfiring Terry and B-Earth is my
boss.
J.B. (14:16):
Why fire Terry?
Allison (14:18):
Well, I had to fire somebody.
So here's how I'm thinkingabout this.
I don't want Michael Jordan tobe our boss.
Cause my boss?
Because I've watched what'sthat show called the Last Dance.
I don't think Michael Jordan isa person one wants to work for.
No, I admire his intensity atgetting a job done, so I think
that intensity for being theperson who's running the thing
could be really good.
Be Arthur is, of course, myfuture self, so I felt like we
(14:44):
would get along.
Famously, and everyone wants aboss that they love, and so, by
process of elimination, terry'sgot to go.
I do really like Terry, but hewas on the Masked Singer and he
has a reality show, so I feellike he could be like a little I
don't know, a little hard tomanage.
Molly (15:00):
I also had Bea Arthur.
Am I saying this correctly?
That feels hard to say today.
I'm, you know, I'm going tohave Compared to Dorothy's
Bornack.
J.B. (15:09):
Yeah, that feels hard to say today I'm, you know I'm
gonna compare to dorothy'sbornack, yeah two very easy
names off the top.
Molly (15:13):
Yes, um, I would like to have be arthur, be um the boss,
like I was.
Like, yeah, I feel like you'dknow exactly where you were at
all times.
It should be a pretty openlistener.
She's real pragmatic.
J.B. (15:23):
Um, yeah, I mean I I am advice, yeah, and I feel like my
future is also as a golden girl, if I'm not one already right
now.
Molly (15:33):
Um, I fired Michael Jordan, which breaks my heart,
because I grew up sleeping undera Michael Jordan poster and I
love him, but I think that hehe's got to go, go off and do
his own magic, his intensity,somewhere else.
I think, terry, I put TerryBradshaw in on the team because
(15:56):
I think he's still prettyindustrious he's.
I think he's making lots ofentrepreneurial moves, seems
like the likeability factorfeels real high, I think.
I think Michael Jordan's got tolike do his thing.
J.B. (16:12):
I don't think Michael Jordan is as engaged with the
world right now around him.
Allison (16:18):
That could be.
I mean, I'm not a Terry hater,I love Terry.
I mean again.
No, yeah, yeah yeah, those arethe namesakes of me, as you know
, of my two.
I'm sure that's why you pickedthem of my oldest child
namesakes of me, as you know, ofmy two.
I'm sure that's why you pickedthem of my oldest child.
Um, but all I will say is Ijust remember the line from the
last dance when michael jordansaid there's no I in team and he
said but there is.
Molly (16:38):
And when yeah, said like only michael jordan good yeah,
oh yeah, I feel like.
Um, I feel like if I was hiringmichael jordan, I'd first want
to go have a conversation withScottie Pippen about what the
experience was, about what itwas like.
Allison (16:53):
But isn't now Scottie Pippen's?
No, my Michael Jordan's ex-wifeis dating Scottie Pippen's son,
right, yeah, yeah, fact checkthat.
Yeah, do you have fact checkersworking behind the scene?
I mean, I was told that there'ssome truth to that.
Molly (17:09):
Yeah, that's just to fuel the fire.
That's the Chicago line.
Let me tell you what'shappening in Chicago.
J.B. (17:16):
Yeah, I don't know.
Well, she's in Chicago andshe's telling us now yeah,
that's.
Allison (17:20):
That's, that's the word on the street.
This is, by the way, alreadylike the most fun I've ever had
podcasting.
This is quite amazing.
I'm really waiting at the end,where you're going to decide
that there needs to be anotherco-host, and it's going to be me
.
J.B. (17:42):
How do you begin understanding your status in an
organization?
Allison (17:46):
You generally have a sense of whether somebody values
you because you get signals.
Now the signals that we valueor don't value someone can be
subtle, but we talk about them alot.
We know they exist.
You get interrupted, you getsome gendered terms, you get
heap heated, you get mansplained, you get cut out of the
information flow.
These kinds of things, theseare clues that people look
toward to say people don'trespect me.
(18:06):
Or, when you talk, do peopleactually think your ideas want a
validity or do they just kindof pass it on, even if they
don't interrupt you?
So we get signals from ourenvironment that we are valued
or not and they lift us or theycause us to sink inward.
You know, if we go into ameeting, we think people here
don't value me and then you stoptalking, you stop contributing,
you start hedging everything,no-transcript taking in about
(18:58):
you.
The two channels of informationare everything you put out into
the world about yourself.
So, as an example, we arehaving this conversation here.
People will listen to it.
You are going to show up in away, from everything from the
tone of voice, the way you askthe question, how you respond to
what I say People are drawingconclusions about you and that's
your channel.
And then the second one isthings other people say about
(19:19):
you generally when you're notaround, and those are the two
ways, right, that people learnabout you.
So JB and I go way back, but inmany cases I've done a podcast
where people did not know me.
But how did I get on thosepodcasts?
Oftentimes because someone whoknew the person who hosted it
said hey, I think Allison wouldbe good.
That's what I call otherpromotion.
(19:39):
That's someone else vouchingfor me.
And then and I'm sure this hashappened to you in your own work
when someone vouches, you'relike I don't know the person,
but I trust the person doing thevouching, so I'm interested.
And when you meet with that now, that stranger who's now come
into your life, they alreadystart with a bit of a status
bump in your eyes.
Why?
Because someone else told youthey were amazing.
Yeah, and so those are the twochannels.
(20:01):
So what we want to think aboutis controlling both to the
greatest extent possible in anauthentic way and with the, the,
the things I put out in theworld.
That's where we're going to usea term like self-presentation
or self-promotion to talk aboutthings.
And then you were asking thequestion about authenticity.
You know, like doing theauthentically caring things, the
authentically capable things,so that people see you doing
(20:22):
that.
So if someone sees you, someonesees you using your Instagram
knowledge to help them, or thatyou actually they're the
beneficiary, that's going topositively change how they think
.
But the other one ofcontrolling how other people
think I'm going to say somethingI think is going to like give
JB shivers, because if you don't, if you said like you know, I
just don't care what peoplethink about me.
then I say imagine peopletalking about you behind your
(20:43):
back and you're like right it'sso middle, it's so middle school
, right it's so awful.
But here's what I want to say ishaving people talk about you
behind your back in a good wayis one of the most powerful
things that can happen forbuilding your brand.
First of all, it's superefficient.
And it's super effectivebecause when another person
talks about you, there is nolimit to how positive they can
(21:05):
be without there being anynegative implications for your
warmth and humility.
They can just be like these arethe most amazing humans that
have ever walked the face of theearth, and even if the person
thinks it's hyperbole, none ofit is going to make you seem
less warm.
So it's what I help people dois to think about how you could
get more systematic in gettingother people to talk about you
(21:25):
behind your back, because whenit happens and you know it,
you're like oh, so-and-so, justtold me how awesome you are.
You feel so touched, butimagine we can influence it.
We can start making it happenmore often.
So those are the two channels.
Molly (21:35):
I'm currently in a role where my expertise is new or
different inside of theorganization, and so I have
realized that I do need to havefolks talking about me in their
terms, so that people understandhow they can utilize and
activate me in the right ways.
Allison (21:52):
And yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think I mean just so thatyou feel like I'll just do some
coaching here for everyone elseOkay, so there's two.
There's two ways to do it.
This is a perfect example.
You have new expertise, right,but people may not know how to
evaluate that because it is newand they don't know what you,
what exactly you bring you need.
You need a sales.
You know you need some salespitch on this.
(22:12):
Yeah, right, okay.
So how do we get other peopleto start talking us up?
Um one, talk them up first.
So every time you interact withsomebody, it's amazing to find
somebody else to tell.
So when you're doing, you'reinteracting with these people,
like tell them, tell their boss,tell their friends, because
they'll find out, whether it'son an email or you just someone
says, you know, oh, molly wasjust talking about you.
(22:33):
And then reciprocity back toBob Cialdini, which you should
go buy that book Influence.
Yeah, reciprocity is anotherbasis of influence.
We do things for people becausethey've done them for us, and so
if you're talking up people,then they will talk you up.
So one of the and thatgenerally for most people feels
super authentic.
Like, I'm not asking you totalk about people you hate or
(22:53):
lie about them.
It's just when you thinkpositive things about them, tell
other people very authentic, norisk whatsoever and also very
strategic that it comes back toyou.
It ends up being a really funway to live and you get that
benefit.
So that's one way to do it.
The second way is to get alittle more explicit and to ask
them, and I do this all the time.
(23:14):
So again, negotiation is notjust for salaries, cars and
houses.
It's for anything that hasvalue in your life.
And sometimes what has value isfor us to say I need an intro,
I need someone to talk me up.
So to say to somebody my expertI'm new and my expertise is is
new People are not going tounderstand what I do, partly
maybe because maybe I don'tspeak enough of the internal
(23:36):
language or their language.
You speak their language andyou are very respected by them.
When you tell them I am great,uh, they will listen.
Now, I would only do that whenI'm confident that the person
I'm asking already thinks I'mgreat, yeah, and I know that
they really respect what I do.
And once I say that people aregrateful, they're almost
tripping over themselves to doit, because one people like
(23:57):
clarity.
People wouldn't ever occur tothem to go say that about you,
but now you've told themsomething very specific which is
very easy for them.
You just want me to tell thethoughts I already have in my
head to another person andyou'll be really grateful for
that.
Oh, that's cool, I can do it.
And then it happens maybe andyou know it's I tell them, like,
pick your moment, but the nexttime you're in a conversation
(24:18):
with this person where it feelsnatural they really value you
and hearing it from you, I think, will really impact.
And then here's where you canemphasize the caring part of
your own storytelling.
The more they believe it, themore opportunities I will have
to add my value to theorganization and make the
organization better.
Right, it's not just about,like I want you know, to be
rewarded.
It's if they don't understandwhat I do, I will be
(24:39):
underutilized and that's bad forthe organization.
So you can always tell a storyto them about how this, how this
still comes back to enablingyou to be even more caring.
J.B. (25:02):
I love, allison, how you insert plays into the book and
the play that I tried out.
That I loved was the self-talkaudit, which and what I learned
in that was how much I diminishand dismiss my own contributions
.
Whenever somebody thanks me forsomething, my immediate
(25:26):
response is oh, it was nothing,no biggie, and it took my
eight-year-old neighbor whotakes my dog out for a walk.
Every once in a while she comesback and I thank her profusely
for playing with my multi-pooand what she does is she just
looks me dead in the eye and shejust is like you're welcome.
Allison (25:49):
That's not where I thought this story was going,
but I love it.
Molly (25:54):
No, me neither.
J.B. (25:55):
And I was like that is the response that I should be
delivering every single time.
And it was simple, it was tothe point, I loved it and I was
like, oh my God, I feel socalled out by this little girl,
and there's something along theway that obviously we unlearn to
(26:18):
diminish our contributions.
Anyhow, what are some of theother plays that we should be
doing besides this one, becauseI think that they're so valuable
.
Allison (26:27):
So the idea of I make an analogy to managing status as
a game and there was onedefinition turns out that if you
are in the game world, there'snot a unified definition of
what's a game, just like there'soften not a unified definition
of anything.
In the game world there's not aunified definition of what's a
game, just like there's oftennot a unified definition of
anything, but one of thedefinitions that does have some
support and traction that Ireally liked was a game is a
problem solving activity,approach with a playful intent,
(26:48):
and I thought, ah, isn't thatgreat.
Like you can have seriousproblems, but you can approach
them with joy and authenticity.
And not being respected is aserious problem.
It diminishes people's lives.
That said, the approach ofgetting status can be done with
some joy and not that is it.
Like I love Instagram, like Iam basically going to help
(27:09):
people on their Instagram andlike that brings me joy and
that's who I am, you know, andthat that in itself is doing
something.
So I go to the idea of plays,of things that are, if we use
status as a game, a problem withapproach with a playful intent.
What are some of the plays andtools?
And so I do offer people ideasand I always say some people,
when we talk about these things,the entire conversation is just
(27:31):
causing like hives and they'revery fearful of saying anything
positive about themselves or net.
You know those things.
I say, Okay, let's start withsome low heat things that you
can do, like one, just observeyourself for a week and just see
what you're doing, so like it'slike very low heat, you don't
even have to do anything, youjust had to pay attention.
Higher heat things going intoplaces with complete strangers
that you would never see againand you know, trying to advocate
(27:51):
for yourself or if you say,telling my story and talking
about myself is very difficult.
I'm like go do it on anairplane, go do it on a bus, go
do it at the DMV you'll neversee those people and start up a
conversation, chat with them andtry it out, you know, and then
then then leave.
So those are low heat things.
And then for people who thinkI'm really good at that I'm
naturally very skilled I think,okay, let's try some some higher
(28:12):
heat things, like reaching outto people that we don't yet know
and asking them, you know, tohelp us, or negotiating for
something that's reallyimportant to us with somebody
that is a meaningfulrelationship in our life, things
like that.
So you can always turn up theheat.
First, I would start with whatof the two dimensions showing
that you care or showing thatyou're really capable and
(28:34):
assertive which one feels easierand more natural to you?
And then and then I would focuson the other dimension.
So if you say like care, soI'll use Molly.
I think care sounds like it'skind of very natural for you and
you're like okay, but I need tomake sure that I'm being
sufficient, like showing off mycapability and being
sufficiently assertive and nottaking advantage of.
So how do I do that?
How do I lean into that?
(28:55):
And that's where I would startwith some plays of what could I
practice or try?
And as an academic, as anexperimentalist, I love the idea
of you just try one thing andyou see what the results are.
Molly (29:06):
Well, so I'm in a lot of meetings where people talk a lot
because it's cross-functionalteams coming together to work
with one another and I thinkthey're all everyone's also
trying to prove themselves toone another because they're also
meeting one another.
I often facilitate, I often amthe one who follows up with
notes.
I'm I usually bringingeverybody along on the journey,
(29:28):
but I rarely participate in theconversation because it's hard
to like butt in.
But I think I do need tointerrupt and get in there
because I do have a lot to offeralso to those conversations.
Allison (29:38):
So I need to test it out and get in there, because I
do have a lot to offer also tothose conversations.
So I need to test it out, yes,and not to again, not to do too
much coaching, but just in the,in the spirit of to everybody I
would say one try to talk withinthe first five minutes, because
being a spectator is a learnedbehavior, so the longer you've
sat there quiet, the moremomentous it is when you speak.
So even if the thing you'resaying is simply about like
chatting about your day orwhatever it is like, when you
(29:59):
start to have a habit ofspeaking, then it kind of
continues yep.
And the other one is to thinkabout can you give yourself a
role where you are speaking more, but maybe not because you're
delivering content, but simplybecause you are structuring the
conversation?
So I'm the agenda keeper.
So here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna do this, and then Ineed to make sure we go back to
(30:20):
so and so can I.
You get your comment again sothat we make sure there's no
questions on that, and thenyou're not really actually
adding content, but you'respeaking and your voice is heard
and you're organizing andyou're in that.
That could be a way more tojust get in the habit of I
contribute in these things andthen it's not as, and then it's
more natural extension from nowI really have a point to add,
and then you know.
(30:40):
Final one is just to say youknow one, one point of value in
every single meeting, like I'vedone, I've added one.
If I add one, I'm like, yeah,I'm good.
J.B. (30:48):
So, alison, at one point in the book you lay out several
scenarios that clearlyillustrate how challenging and
complex it can be to beperceived as warm and assertive
at work, and I'll run throughthese scenarios.
One should I turn out arelocation for family
obligations if it riskscoworkers, family or friends
(31:09):
seeing me as less ambitious?
Should I speak up in meetingwith an alternative to my
colleague's proposal if it risksher seeing me as less of a team
player?
Should I accept the stretchassignment when I know I'll have
a steep learning curve if itrisks her seeing me as less of a
team player?
Should I accept the stretchassignment when I know I'll have
a steep learning curve if itrisks my new boss seeing me as
inept?
Should I stand up for someonethat I think is being
(31:30):
undervalued if it risks me beingseen as difficult?
How should women think aboutchallenges like these?
How do you leverage likablebadassery to work through these?
Allison (31:47):
Molly is again our last in case study is also in a high
stakes but beautiful momentright now, because when you're
new and people don't know you,that's where you have the
easiest opportunity to shape toyour point about first
impressions, shape how peoplesee you, that then you can ride
for years and years and years,and so that investment at the
beginning can be really useful.
But once status is established,there's this concern.
And in that same part of thebook I quote Amy Shulman, who
was a general counsel at Pfizer,at one point and she said women
(32:11):
hoard.
She was talking about status,but she said women hoard favors
as if they are airline miles,that for women to be respected
it takes so much work.
And then, once you feelrespected, you don't want to
lose it, you don't want to gobackwards, and so then we end up
hoarding this resource statusas a resource, money as a
resource, health as a resource.
We hoard the resource becausewe think it's finite, it's going
(32:32):
to go away, I can't spend it.
But if we do that, then whyhave it at all right?
The whole point of it is to beable to use it to live your best
life, and so what I help peoplethink about in answering these
kinds of questions that are hardand there are some of the like.
I put those in there becauseI've seen women wrestle with
them.
I've wrestled with every singleone of them at some point.
What makes them hard is notknowing what we're working for.
(32:56):
We're making that decision inthe moment and we're working for
.
We're making that decision inthe moment and we're trying to
think like what will they think?
Do they like me?
And then, to your point JB, yousay, just screw it.
You know who cares what peoplethink.
The way I think people should doit is to start by setting some
longer term goals that you havegoals for your career and goals
for your life.
What do I want out of my life?
So I'll give you a parentingexample for myself.
(33:17):
For parents, one conundrum thatthey have is this idea of like
being gone at work versus beingpresent for your kids' moments.
And should I do these things ifI'm going to spend more time or
take a job that has travel andI won't be around as much for my
kids?
One thing I was very clear onby because I did these kind of
(33:38):
thoughts about what do I want myfuture life to look like, and
how do I then these kind ofthoughts about what do I want my
future life to look like andhow do I then work back for
today of what's worth doing andnot doing?
I realized that a veryimportant thing to me is to have
strong relationships with myadult children.
My kids are not adults yet.
They range from nine to 15.
That was my goal, and so thathas been a guidance for me when
I make decisions about should Itake hits in my career for
(34:00):
something that's going to bepersonal in my family?
Something that matters to a lotof parents is to be there for
their child's first, first word,first step, first thing.
I'm like you know what my kidsaren't going to remember.
Any of that.
Whether I was there or notthere won't affect whether they
see me as an adult and how theysee me as an adult.
If they see me as an adult andif your child is developing as
(34:22):
one would expect, all the kidswill eventually do that.
So it's not actually reallythat unique or special that they
said a word or they stepped,and so I said you know what
that's not going to be, whereI'm going to spend my status at
work, where I'm going to riskbeing seen as less capable
because I'm not around for thatstuff.
It just doesn't matter to meNow.
It could matter greatly toanother parent and that would be
an equally valid choice.
(34:43):
But because I had thought aboutit, it removed of the what was
my end goal.
It removed a lot of the in themoment anxiety.
If I'm in a meeting and someonesays something that's incorrect,
there's a tendency and I havethis tendency to want to be like
that was wrong.
I'm going to just have tosomehow tell you that it was
wrong.
But when we do that, peopledon't like being told they're
wrong.
They feel embarrassed, theymight like us less, they might
(35:03):
challenge our capability.
It gets into a thing and thequestion is is it worth it?
Because there's lots of wrongthings that happened in the
world.
It's not my job to correct themall.
Is it in some way going toviolate something that I see as
a really important end goal?
Either.
Maybe it's cruel and I thinkit's incredibly important for
who I am that people be treatedwith kindness, and so I will
(35:25):
speak up but maybe it's notcruel.
It's just like an opinion thatI think is weird, and so am I
going to save my status or useit.
On that it's a lot easier ifwe've thought about it in what
we're working towards.
So I have a couple differentexercises I work people through
to think about what's my endgoal and then how does that help
me in the moment.
And I find that when you haveyour end goal in mind, a lot of
(35:45):
the hard decisions don't seemhard anymore, because the one
that's going to further yourfuture state becomes much more
obvious.
J.B. (35:52):
Lauren writes in.
How can I maintain my brand ofbeing an innovator who drives
quality execution at the fastpace of the tech industry
without being perceived as asteamroller who rates low on
teamwork?
Allison (36:06):
So this is a great example of having goals and
saying I want to be seen as aninnovator, I want to be a person
whose accomplishments, whenI've left this organization or
they, have done A, b and Cinnovative things that haven't
happened.
Those are very clear end goals.
Again, I'm going to go back tobasics.
One think about in order foryou to be an innovator, whose
support do you really need andhow do you start building that
(36:28):
support from day one?
By finding easy ways to maketheir life easier.
So, yeah, again, this is anegotiation.
I know what I need from you.
I need you to move fast and Ineed you to be creative and
think outside the box.
But what do you want out ofthis interaction?
What do you need?
How do I go and build yourstatus?
What are your goals?
How can I facilitate what theyare, even just by talking to
other people about how amazingyou are, opening doors for you,
(36:50):
giving opportunities.
So if we think about theserelationships as the ones we
most need, as relationships ofmutual value being exchanged,
you start to solve the problempretty quickly, which is, I know
what I'm going to need from you.
But that's only going to reallybecome a problem if you don't
see yourself getting anythingfrom me.
And so if you're gettingsomething, whatever it is and
(37:11):
again you can be as creative asyou possibly can right, I'm
either helping you with withyour work, I'm talking up, even
I'm just the nicest, mostcomplimentary person that you've
ever interacted with and youjust really like being around me
, because every time you see me,you're just I'm saying
something nice and you know like, or telling you a funny story
and I'm hilarious.
Whatever it is, you enjoy beingin this interaction.
(37:33):
So that's how I would thinkabout it.
But I think one really greatstrength of this question is
this is a person who understandswhat their end goal is, and all
now they need to figure out ishow to, and I think the
capability piece seems takencare of.
It's how to do the care piece,and the care piece doesn't
necessarily mean I have to workat your pace.
It just means I have to havesomething that I'm doing that
(37:55):
shows you that I care about you.
So, again, if all I do is sayfaster, faster, faster, why
isn't this done?
Then that would signal topeople you don't care and that's
why that's a problem.
It's not the speed of work oranything, it's this person
doesn't care about me.
So I would just think I'm goingto assume that this person does
care about other people and ifthey don't, I cannot help them.
They should listen to anothershow.
But if they care about peopleand it's only about having to
(38:18):
communicate that, then you havea lot of different ways.
And I would say this all theseother people that work with you
need to believe you care aboutsomething other than driving
your deadline, and if theybelieve that you do that, then
you can have some leeway in thetiming and the pushing for the
results and still have goodrelationships.
J.B. (38:38):
Thank you so much, Allison , for being on the show.
It was a pleasure to have you.
Allison (38:42):
My pleasure.
It's so good to see you, JB.
J.B. (38:45):
Where can people?
Allison (38:46):
find you.
They can find Likeable Badassanywhere you'd love to buy a
book.
They can find me on my website,alisonforgalecom.
And when you go on my website,I think the three most
interesting buttons to clickwould be to sign up for my
newsletter.
It's a free newsletter.
It's called the Upper Hand.
It's behavioral science to helpwomen excel.
And then, if they wanted tocome along for the ride on
social I'm on LinkedIn andInstagram they could click those
(39:07):
buttons too.
J.B. (39:08):
And if people want to work out with you on Peloton, where
can they find you?
Allison (39:12):
Oh, they can find me under the name AF Bomb.
I've always had to say myinitials are quite apt, don't
you think?
Absolutely.
I've always had to say myinitials are quite apt, don't
you think?
J.B. (39:19):
Absolutely, and that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
(39:39):
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram, at
unseriousfun, or on our websiteat unseriouscom, where you can
find all of our previousepisodes and show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
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