August 28, 2025 • 39 mins
When people feel seen, heard, and needed at work, everything shifts. Motivation, performance, retention and well-being all improve. Too often that sense of significance is missing, and the cost to teams and organizations is massive.
In this episode, we talk with Zach Mercurio, author of The Power of Mattering, about how leaders can create cultures where people genuinely feel valued. We explore:
- The difference between mattering, belonging, and self-esteem
- What happens when people feel invisible at work and how to prevent it
- The everyday practices leaders can use to help people feel significant
- Why in the age of AI, our ability to care for one another will be the most essential skill
"Mattering happens through interactions, not through awards, perks or programs. Our next great leadership act is in our next interaction." - Zach Mercurio
Prefer video? Watch on YouTube or Spotify.
Check out Zach's book, as well as free a self-assessment and templates at zachmercurio.com.
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is Unserious.
You spoke up, but no one heard.
It's that quiet ache ofinsignificance.
It might be the mostdestructive force in today's
workplace.
At work, we push performance,efficiency, speed at any means
necessary.
But maybe the secret to it allis something simpler.
Today we're talking aboutmattering, not the existential
(00:41):
kind so much, but how we makeeach other feel at work, because
now as much as ever, we need tofeel like we matter.
I'm Molly McMahon here with myco-host, jb Skelton, hey, and
(01:02):
we're joined today by ZachMercurio of Today's Leading
Voices on Purpose-DrivenLeadership and author of the new
bestseller Power of Mattering.
He's a researcher, advisor andeducator who's helped everyone,
from Fortune 100 companies toschool custodians, understand
the importance of significance.
Zach, thank you for joining uson Unserious Welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's so great to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Thank you, Molly.
Thank you, Molly.
Thank you, JB.
Glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, we're so glad you're here.
You start your book with astriking idea that the first
thing we do as humans is reachout, trying to matter to someone
.
And actually just yesterday acoworker of mine asked me if her
son could text me, because hegets so excited when the three
little dots pop up on the phone.
And so I'm wondering how doesthat instinct evolve as we grow
(01:50):
up, and what happens when it'snot met?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
The first thing we do is reach out for significance.
It's our most primal instinctand, if you think about this,
none of us would be here rightnow if we hadn't mattered enough
to someone else along the wayto keep us alive.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Can you explain what mattering really is?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yeah.
So that instinct to matter aswe grow up it turns into the
fundamental need to feel seen,heard, valued and needed by
those around us.
It never goes away.
It's a constant driver.
In fact, think about this youwouldn't have done much of
anything today If, at some smalllevel, you didn't believe that
your life was worthy of yourunrelenting energy.
(02:36):
Right, mattering animates life.
Mattering animates behavior.
It's why we keep going.
Is that we believe in some waywe matter, animates behavior.
It's why we keep going?
Is that we believe in some waywe matter.
When that need to matter is met, when we experience feeling
seen, heard, valued and neededby those around us, we
experience what psychologistscall mattering, which is the
feeling of being significant andfeeling significant to those
around us.
(02:57):
That comes from feeling valuedby them and knowing how we add
value to their lives.
So mattering is an experienceand it's interpersonally driven.
So I have an elementary schoolaged kid, I have two 10 and 7.
So recess drama is really high,so I'll use a recess example.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Do it.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Is feeling picked for the team.
It's being picked to play right.
Inclusion is being asked toplay in the game.
So inclusion is being invitedand able to take an active role
in a group, but mattering isfeeling that the team wouldn't
be complete without you.
Mattering is feelingsignificant to individuals.
So I can feel like I'm welcomeand connected and that I belong
(03:40):
in this group right now.
But you could not know thatsomeone in my family is in the
hospital and I'm a caretaker.
You may not be able to name myunique gifts, you might not be
showing me how I'm needed.
So I can feel like I belong andthat I'm included and not feel
significant to you.
And so mattering isinterpersonally driven.
It's the interpersonalexperience of feeling
(04:02):
significant to the person you'reinteracting with.
It's different from self-esteem, because it's a prerequisite
for self-esteem.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Self-esteem is our sense of worth.
One of the misnomers over thepast 50 years of self-help
culture is that we can developself-esteem on our own, that we
can sit in our office and sayyou are enough, you are enough
and chant affirmations to ourourselves and that will be
enough.
But the problem is is that ashumans, we're interdependent, so
we get cues in our environmentfrom others that reflect back on
(04:33):
us who we actually are.
The only way we know who we areis in community with others.
These are things calledreflected appraisals, where
people give us feedback.
They give us evidence of oursignificance, which helps us
reinforce the belief that we'resignificant, which then
reinforces the belief in ourworth and our capability.
So it's both.
There's two sides of it.
(04:54):
We have to believe in ourselves, but we also have to be in
relationships that give us theevidence of our significance to
maintain that belief, and that'sthe reinforcing loop.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Wow, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit
about what?
Or talk about anti-matteringand I know this is not a Star
Trek reference.
I assume you describe it as amattering deficit.
Can you explain what it is andhow it shows up in the workplace
?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yeah, so again, the experience of not mattering is
like being in a room full ofpeople, maybe even friends, and
feeling completely overlooked.
There are two things that tendto happen when we feel that we
don't matter.
One is we either withdraw, weisolate, we withhold, we quiet
quit.
I know that was a big trend Imean the fact that that trend
(05:47):
went viral should be concerningfor everybody.
I mean, quiet quitting was bornby a TikTok influencer, a
career coach, who said if youdon't like your job, just do the
bare minimum to get by.
I mean, human beings were notmeant to do the bare minimum.
We're meant to matter, but orit can result in acts of
desperation.
There's a there's a story of aprisoner who was found outside
(06:12):
by the fence.
He was out.
He was out.
All he had to do was leave.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But he wouldn't leave .
He just sat there and theguards got him and they said
what are you doing?
And what we know?
The prison psychologist saidwhy didn't you leave?
And he said I just wanted to becaught because I wanted someone
to pay attention to me.
I wanted to know if I reallyexisted, I wanted to know if I
mattered.
He felt so unseen, so ignored,so overlooked on the inside that
(06:40):
he literally took the desperateaction to escape, just to be
caught so someone would payattention to him.
When we feel insignificant, justlike with any instinct, that's
unmet the instinct to sleep isnot met, the instinct to eat is
not met, our bodies and ourbrains revolt and react very
strongly.
Sometimes it can manifest inbullying behavior, gossiping.
Martin Luther King said thatprotest is the language of the
(07:02):
unheard.
When those things happen in anorganization, they create a
sense of learned helplessnessand they actually undermine
really all of the things that wesay we want.
Because if I were to reallysummarize the research on things
like work motivation over thelast 50 years, I would say that
it's almost impossible foranything to matter to someone
(07:23):
who doesn't first believe thatthey matter.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, can we talk about that experience of
anti-mattering, that learnedhelplessness, that withdrawing
from work?
In current world of work, manyof us are in jobs where we're in
constant transformation, likeit's, those cycles of change are
(07:49):
only increasing more and moreand as we look ahead, we can
often see the age of AI andlayoffs around the corner.
And so how do you navigate thisfeeling of insignificance when
there's so much turmoil andchange happening around us?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And the good news is that if I were to ask you when
you feel that you most matter inyour work, have all listeners
to think about that.
When do you?
most feel that you matter toother people in your work, you
will likely not think of bigactions.
We've asked that question tothousands of people.
No one's ever said, oh, thatrestructure really helped.
(08:30):
Or when I got that promotion, Ireally felt that I mattered.
Or when I got my new perkpackage or my work from home
benefits.
Or no one's ever said, when Igot a big award or when I got my
direct deposit.
We've never had anybody talkabout a big action.
It happens in smallinteractions.
What's actually liberatingabout that is that means that
our next Great Leadership Act isreally in our next interaction.
(08:53):
Mattering happens throughinteractions, not through awards
, perks or programs.
One signal of this to look atis the persistent.
I mean, how many times do wehave to get a Gallup engagement
report to tell us how disengagedwe are right?
Oh yeah, in January 2025,gallup released a report.
It's at its lowest rate in adecade.
(09:16):
We have to really dissect this,though, because employee
engagement has become a $1billion industry.
We've invested millions inwell-being programs, dei
programs, perks, culture hascome and gone.
Nothing's moved the needle.
You have to peel back the layera little bit and look at two
data points.
One is just 39% of that samplein that survey the lowest it's
(09:37):
ever been said that theystrongly agreed that someone at
work cared for them as a person.
Just 30% of that sample couldstrongly agree that someone at
work cared for them as a person.
Just 30% of that sample couldstrongly agree that someone at
work could identify and investit in their unique potential.
This mirrors data from WorkHumanshowing 30% of people in 2024,
30% of nearly 30,000 employeesself-reported.
(09:58):
They quote unquote feltinvisible at work.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, this is something that cannot be solved
by a program, it cannot besolved by perks, it cannot be
solved by restructure, it canonly be solved in interactions.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And we've heard you say like hurry and care can't
coexist.
Can you unpack that also,because there is this like
desire for speed, efficiencyoptimizing.
So how does speed cultureundercut that significance, or
what can you do to improve thatsignificance within a speed
culture?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, so there's two barriers to why this is
happening.
I don't think anybody gets upin the morning and is like I'm
going to be an uncaring leadertoday.
I'm going to make the personacross from me feel
insignificant.
I think what's happening isthat the skills to do that have
eroded over the last 25 yearsand our environments are
(10:53):
actually making it harder for usto do it.
There's nothing more frustratedthan knowing what the right
thing is to do and not havingthe skills to do it, or being in
an environment that makes ithard to do it.
I mean, that's the ultimatefrustration.
I think many leaders are livingin that world.
You know.
The first thing that'shappening is that we can use
these things to communicate withone another.
For the past 25 years, we'vebeen able to communicate in very
(11:13):
short digital transactions withone another, and while a lot of
like well known psychologistshave said that that's our
problem, we need to put down ourphones and reconnect.
Putting down your phones willnot solve disconnection if you
don't know what to do when youput down your phones.
So we've actually lost theability to connect with one
(11:33):
another.
So, molly, if you give me somegood news, I can just give you a
little thumbs up emoji and say,hey, great, great job.
I don't have to sit with youanymore and say I'm really proud
of you.
I've noticed how hard you'vebeen working on that.
If JB says gives me some badnews, I can just give him a
thumbs down emoji and say sorryto hear that let's catch up next
week.
I don't have to sit with himanymore and seek understanding
and show compassion.
So the less we've been usingthese skills, the less
(12:07):
proficient that we've gotten atthem.
But the other piece is thatwe've used technology for
efficiency, which is good, butwe're also inundated with more
than ever.
I can now be in a meeting andworking on something else at the
same time and our attentionspans have dwindled as a result.
Gloria Mark, a greatpsychologist, has found that our
attention, our ability to payattention to one thing, even the
person in front of us 10 yearsago was about two and a half
minutes and now it's about 47seconds.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
So if we don't have the attention, if we don't have
the time, if we don't have theintention, it's very difficult
for someone to feel cared for.
Think about the last time youwere able to care for anything
whether it's a pet, snake, aplant or a person when you
didn't understand them.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Understand it.
Care requires understanding,understanding requires time and
attention and skill.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Hey, zach, welcome to Hire Fireboss.
It's a quick fire game where wegive our guests a fictional
scenario and three characters.
You've got to hire one, you'vegot to fire one and one will be
your boss.
The task at hand is you've beenhired to transform a burned out
, underperforming team into athriving, high trust workplace,
(13:21):
and you have no budget for pingpong tables.
Your team of potential culturalshapers are number one Joanna
Gaines, modern farmhousewhisperer.
Rebuild systems and spaces withintention, shiplap and ferns.
The second of your cultureshapers is the one and only
(13:45):
Kelly Clarkson Unfiltered upbeatand sings your Q3 goals into a
power ballad.
She's a national treasure onyour team Slack.
And the last is Adam Grantpowered by data and dad jokes,
brings receipts to everyconversation and will
respectfully challenge yourentire worldview.
(14:07):
All right, think about thatcrew.
Jb, I'm looking at you too.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
This is a real doozy.
I haven't used that word inages, I just want to know yeah,
yeah.
It's a good word.
I know what I'm going to dohere.
I'm going to hire Kelly.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Oh, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Yes, because I think that Kelly is going to
authentically both hear people,see people.
I think she's also going togive us the real deal, I mean
mean like what she really thinks, and that's important data that
we're going to need in thetransformation.
We need people to be able tospeak up.
Yeah, she has a lot of courage,confidence to do that.
I'm gonna fire joanna okay, okayum, because culture isn't about
(14:50):
what it looks like, it's aboutwhat it is.
I think that you know, you can.
I don't need somebody to curatean image, I need somebody to
act, behave in a certain way.
Yeah, and then I'm going tohave Adam be the boss, only
because I think that everyperson who's responsible for
other people should know as muchas they can about human beings,
(15:13):
like I think that leaders mustbe experts in human wellbeing
and human beings, and he hasthat foundational knowledge to
do that.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Wow, that I mean.
That's a dream team that youput together.
Jb, how would you put togetheryour team?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So I, I'm, I'm with you, zach.
I'm firing Joanna.
Same reason, um, but I, Iactually flipped it.
I'm going to, I'm going to hireAdam.
I think it would be more fun towork alongside him and have
somebody who is more of apractitioner as your um, uh,
(15:52):
that that you are, uh, that isactually doing the work, and I
feel like Kelly is more of avision person and is like a big
rallier, but but less, uh, lessdirectional.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
yeah, yeah she would potentially provide more
autonomy.
You know, know whether?
I mean because Adam could.
I could see that Adam couldhave a right way of doing things
.
I've had interactions and sothere might be a way of doing
things that are best supportedby evidence.
But things that work in theorydon't always work in practice,
(16:28):
that's correct.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
True, I actually wouldn't that be fun.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Wouldn't that be fun to work with on Adam and be like
, Wouldn't that?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
be fun to work with on Adam and be like see, doesn't
work Right, and then have Kellysing a song about how it didn't
work.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
That's right, and it would be just fine, because then
everyone would be able toiterate on it so that it did
work right for their culture.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah and right, but Adam should be willing to
rethink.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Oh, that was a little zinger.
That was a doozy.
That was a doozy.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Only one who loves a dad.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yep, you know, I actually fired Adam because I
feel like, because I think Adamis, he's up there to inspire and
get us thinking up and beyond,and I actually I think that we
all might be living in JoannaGaines's world, I think she has
built this like she's a giantfamily.
She owns a media empire andshe's constantly rebuilding
(17:26):
things.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I know it's just this particular job.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
That's the only.
That's where I I have enormousrespect for Joanna Gaines, yeah,
but when you put her on, whenwe look at this assignment,
that's where I differ on.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, I don't know.
Seems like she could doanything and I definitely want
to work with Kelly Clarkson.
I would love to sing out our Q3goals.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
So we're all working with Kelly in some capacity.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, yeah, definitely 100% Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That's the comment.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Okay, I think that says a lot.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right, yeah, I think it does too.
She's great.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, that was fun.
I kind of want to do anotherone now.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Well, we actually got to get an interview out of the
way, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I know we got to actually give people what they
want, right.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I don't know how you, how know how things are in
Colorado.
Here in the Valley, we arestill very much hybrid and
remote work led and ever sincethe pandemic that has never
really reversed.
How does that shift towardsmore flexible ways of working,
contribute to the lack offeeling like like you matter on
(18:37):
your teams?
I know that some days I thinkhere I am, I'm working from my
living room all by myself, yeah,yeah, and, and, and.
I'm a writer, I work in commsand so that's like that's the
job, yeah.
But it's also like you justdon't get, you don't feel like
(19:01):
you're getting all the feedbackand those interactions and the
affirmations.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah, what's happened is in remote work.
We've tended to use technologyfor efficiency and not
connection, so our interactionsactually become shorter when
we're remote and we actuallydon't know what's happening
because we assume people don'twant to be on another.
Teams call or Zoom call.
So we make it shorter.
The other thing it allows us todo is it allows us to click
(19:28):
leave.
So when we're done, right, sowe don't think about this, but I
have this button right here onthis platform Leave.
So, jb, say that you're feelingfrustrated in the meeting,
meeting time's over, I get toclick leave and I don't have to
think about you until next week.
That's not normal.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
And usually what would happen is that you sort of
walk out of the meeting and youhave like a private aside,
right?
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yeah, or I have to like seek understanding.
You know I'm working for a lawfirm that has everybody's remote
.
They also work on individualcases, so they're very siloed
already.
And one of the things that westarted implementing is the
managing partners will just dothese three minute micro
check-ins.
So they've committed to if theysee somebody's frustrated or
(20:14):
they see somebody's like showinglower energy or they notice
something, one of their norms ofbehavior is to pick up the
phone and to call them after themeeting and say hey, I noticed
you're frustrated, is that right?
Like what's going on?
Those moments of connection arepossible in remote settings,
like those in-between moments,but we have to start thinking
about using technology forconnection Also.
(20:42):
You know, one of the peoplesaid well, I think that if I
called one of my team membersout of the blue, they would be
fearful.
And I said that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Our fix is often more connections, more meetings,
more Slack messages, morechannels, more culture programs,
and it sounds like what you'resaying is this is not about more
, it's about quality and thislike lines up with this lines up
with like a lot of the researchthat we've done.
When we've done these bigsurveys across organizations
(21:07):
about, sort of like, where arethe gaps in communication?
It always comes down to themanager.
One-on-one is the most valuablehalf hour or 45 minutes or hour
of the week for any individualcontributor, and to be seen and
heard and connected in that timeis so important, is so
(21:38):
important, and what we wouldhear often in the anecdotal is
that like, oh, my manager's likeon Slack or during the meeting
or the meeting keeps on gettingpunted or whatever.
So as I was reading your book,it reminded me of this line that
I had thought about a lot,which is that lots of managers
use every interaction with me tomake sure that I know that
(21:59):
they're important, but theleaders that I really love
working with use everyinteraction with me to make sure
that I know that I'm important.
And so what is it exactly thatthese leaders are doing?
What are they actually doingdifferently in a normal day?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and one of the things is that they're not
leaving it up to chance.
It's intentional, and some ofthe best leaders that I've
worked with tend to obsessivelyread about this.
Learn about how humans interact.
They know that the craft ofleading someone else is its own
occupation.
(22:38):
Yeah Right, I was just talkingto a group of engineers at a
university who are engineeringprofessors, who are now in
leadership positions, and wekept talking about this
difference between doing the joband being responsible for
caring for the people doing thejob and how it requires such a
different skill set and itrequires different competencies.
What we found is there's threemajor practices and I call these
(23:04):
practices because a practice issomething that you consistently
work on and reflect on andthese three practices that when
we ask people, when your leadermakes you feel that you matter,
what are they doing, weconsistently hear that the
leader helps them feel noticed.
They're noticers.
Difference between knowingsomebody and noticing them.
I can know you, jb, becausewe've worked together for a long
(23:26):
time, and not notice thatyou're struggling.
I can know you, molly, but notnotice that you're feeling left
out of discussions and takeaction on that.
Notice that you're feeling leftout of discussions and take
action on that.
Noticing is a deliberate act ofpaying attention to the details
, the ebbs, the flows ofsomeone's work and life and
(23:46):
offering them a proactive actionto show them that you remember
them.
The other thing that they do isthey tend to affirm people.
They don't just appreciate them, they don't just give them
awards to recognize their work.
They show them and reveal tothem regularly the specific
evidence of their uniquedifference that they make.
Example of this, there was aNational Park Service facilities
maintenance supervisor that wasreally high performing because
(24:08):
he had the park that had thelowest turnover, highest morale,
and I got to go observe him andhe was like the practice I do
that really makes the mostdifference, isn't really
anything I even say I just walkthe park every week.
I take a picture of projects myteam worked on, like if the
bridge was repaired and visitorswere walking over the bridge.
I take a picture of them doingthat.
(24:29):
I take a picture of a trailpeople were working on and then
on Friday morning I send themost popular email I send every
week, which is the look what youdid email.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I love this.
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
And it just says the subject line is look what you
did, and this is why I lovestudying leaders, because it's
such a sophisticated practice.
But it's really amazing becausehe just attaches the pictures
and you know what he told me.
He goes.
No one can argue with me thatthey matter, because I have
photographic evidence that youmatter.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And then the final piece is they show people that
they're needed.
I mean, they use words like ifit wasn't for you.
You know everybody here.
Think of someone you rely onNow.
Think of the last time youexplicitly told them you rely on
Now.
Think of the last time youexplicitly told them.
Great leaders close that gapbetween feelings of gratitude
and actions of gratitude.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So this really, this really reminds me of the show
called Romper Room, kind of likebefore or after Mr Rogers, and
the teacher would end the showwith a bunch of kids and have
this magic mirror that she wouldhold up.
She would name every singleperson in the class and she
(25:45):
would say I see Oliver, I seeSally, I see Zach.
You were just hanging on theteacher's words to be like is
she going to say my name?
She never said JB by the way,but AI could recreate that.
(26:06):
I'm sure it could, but it's sobasic and, as I think about this
in this conversation, a lot ofwhat you're talking about is
this level of care and thisunderstanding of significance to
one another.
This is how you demonstratelove with a partner, this is and
(26:29):
with friends, and it's also andlike.
We don't talk about love atwork very often because it's
like it's an uncomfortable word,but this seems to be like it's
a real need that we all have andit's like and it is very much
related.
How does this like, how doesthis work around?
(26:51):
Mattering and significancerelate to, relate to love.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Well, I mean, you mentioned something earlier that
I think we need to highlight,which is that, when it comes to
like reducing loneliness orenhancing our sense of
connectivity with one another,it's not the quantity of
connection that matters, it'sthe quality and when researchers
study what makes a qualityinteraction.
They use a term.
It's called companionate love.
(27:18):
This is different thanpassionate love.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
But when we hear the word love, we often think of
passionate love like romanticlove, yeah, but companionate
love is having someone payattention to us.
It's having someone showcompassion for us.
It's having someone affirm usall of the behaviors that help
us feel that we matter.
So the opposite of things likeloneliness is not having more
people around you.
It's feeling that you matter tothe people around you, and
(27:45):
there's management researchersthat have identified that it's
companionate love that isactually the most important
aspect in a workplacerelationship that results in
performance and low levels ofloneliness, and so you're right
on to bring that term love up.
But you went to education andsomething happened recently that
(28:07):
I wanted to share and there wasa teacher that was working with
elementary school students in avery high risk area and she had
like really good, good numberswhen it came to reducing
absences and reducing truancy.
And I went and talked to herand I said what do you do?
And she goes well when astudent's absent, I don't ask
them why they were absent.
(28:28):
I don't tell them that they'regoing to get a number of
attendance points if they haveto go to the office.
The first thing I tell them is Isay to them and it's kind of
emotional to think about this,but I say to them your friends
weren't laughing as much becauseyou weren't here yesterday.
I didn't see when you werelining up to go to the cafeteria
, when you usually make jokeswith your friends, I could see
(28:49):
that they were just lookingahead.
They weren't as engaged withoutyou here today and I want to
let you know that it wasn't thesame.
And she says that when someone'sabsent, she makes sure of that
that they know that they weremissed.
And she said usually withinabout a week it corrects itself.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
That's really great.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
But I think that, going up to the workplace level,
we were interviewing peopleabout their experiences at work
and when they most felt thatthey mattered.
And this one woman she's aconsultant and she mentioned,
like seven years ago, when aleader said to her in a meeting
Katie, when you don't speak up,our team misses out.
You don't speak up, our teammisses out.
(29:31):
And she said it was just thatlike.
It was that like three seconds,three seconds of feeling, I
mean feeling that your presenceand your absence means something
to just one other person thatactually, she told me, kept her
in her career.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I worked for quite a while in school systems and in
the Mississippi Delta there wasa network of KIPP schools where
the principals would meet thebuses every morning when kids
got off the bus and shake everykid's hand and in that moment
you knew exactly what hadhappened the night before or in
the morning with that child andyou knew what kind of day that
(30:06):
they were going to have.
And that is such and there's somuch dignity in that.
It's very welcoming, it likegives you so much information
and I think about you know thisnotion of companionate, love,
and I'm wondering how do youscale that, what are things that
can, that can be put into placeso that you actually start to
create this movement ofcompanionate, companionate, love
(30:29):
.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
That's a tongue twister for me.
That's not easy to say.
It's not easy to say I'll justlove words like that, like
phrases like that.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I'm like, can I say it?
I'm going to do it, I'm goingto do it.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Well, what's that old cliche?
I mean, cliches are greatbecause they're cliches, because
they're true, but the cliche islike love is a verb.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It's an action.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Creating mattering is an action.
It's a set of skills and habitswe can learn.
So often, when it comes toleading people, we've relied on
intuition, but intuition doesnot scale you can't scale being
a good person Skills and habitsscale.
So I think organizations thatmove beyond just hey, re-engage
your team or fosterpsychological safety on your
(31:11):
team or make sure to createdevelopment pathways and support
your team members withoutequipping their leaders with the
skills and making sure theenvironment promotes the habits
of doing these things.
I think it's important.
I'll give you like one skillthat you can scale per each of
those practice areas.
Like, let's look at noticing.
One of the things that greatnoticers do is they ask better
(31:33):
questions, so they go beyond thegreeting.
How are you, how's?
your day, how's your shift going?
Those are greetings, they'renot questions.
If someone asks me how are you,I mean my brain.
I have a snake, two dogs, twokids.
I can't compute the last 12hours of living a complex human
life, so I just say good you.
Nobody gets anything from that.
(31:54):
When a leader says to theirteam how's everybody doing Good?
Imagine if you weren't good,Would you say not?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
me.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Or I hope everybody's doing well, but asking
questions like making sure yourteam, every leader, knows how to
ask a question that's clear,that's open, that's exploratory,
like what has your attentiontoday?
What kinds of log jams have youbeen experiencing on that
project and how can I help?
What have you been strugglingwith?
What would you do if you wereme?
What should I start doing?
What should I stop doing tomake your work easier?
(32:25):
Those are questions thatactually give you the data to
see people.
Yeah, so for noticing, do yourpeople know how to do that?
The same thing with showingpeople that they're affirmed
Instead of saying thank you,you're a good job in your
organization make sure people gobeyond and know how to show
people the difference they makeand how they make it.
(32:47):
Do they know how to namepeople's unique gifts?
Do they know how to tell astory of significance?
Do they know how to take thepicture metaphorically and give
someone the indisputableevidence of their significance?
And then you know, do they usethe words if it wasn't for you?
Often Do they?
Know how to ladder someone upfrom their tasks and their
(33:07):
inputs to how it's measurablyneeded and you know.
Start there and start thinkingof what are our skills gaps?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Where do?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
we need to develop these skills.
And how will we measure theseskills?
By self-assessment andmeasuring team members on
mattering, and that's where thisstarts to get legs.
This is where it starts toscale.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I mean I love all of this and I think like those
really clear, like prompts are.
I mean, those are the types ofthings that I try to have around
my computer screen,particularly when I'm heading
into meetings, so that you cancreate this open dialogue.
One thing that I've heard youtalk about is like the
opportunities in the AI era tohave a relationship era, Because
(33:47):
I think a lot of us areentering the AI era with some
fear and then being like we gotto learn this or we're going to
be irrelevant.
But I think you might have somewisdom for folks around that.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Don't be afraid of AI , because AI can never take
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Only humans can.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
AI can do the task.
It can't be responsible for thetask.
Only humans will be able to havemoral responsibility to one
another, so you can prompt AI todo whatever you want.
I was just talking to a bigretail client.
You can have an AI chatbotguide someone through an
interaction, but they can't beresponsible for the interaction.
So our responsibility to oneanother is something that AI
(34:30):
cannot replace, and to beresponsible to one another
requires building trust.
Building trust requires care,and that's why I think we are
entering the relationshipeconomy.
We're entering the relationshipera where our ability to build
trust with one another, to beaccountable to one another as
human beings, to takeresponsibility for how other
(34:51):
people are experiencing theworld that we're an active
constructor in, is going to bethe most sought after skill in
the age of AI.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I mean that is a lot to be optimistic about.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yes, I'm very optimistic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is a lotto be optimistic about?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yes, I'm very optimistic, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, one of the lines from your book that stuck
with me was that you can't carefor something that you don't
understand, which was a reallybeautiful way of putting that.
(35:36):
How?
Speaker 3 (35:42):
can our listeners start building their own
literacy in this area?
I think that one of the mostpowerful questions that you
could ask anybody in anyrelationship is when you feel
that you matter to me, what am Idoing?
I posed this question and I hada again, this is a little bit
emotional because I had a readerwho read an article where I
(36:03):
posed this question and sheposted on LinkedIn that she
asked her 13-year-old daughterthat that she was having trouble
connecting with and herdaughter said it was the rides
to school where they're justlistening to music and talking.
But she never knew that.
So to her it was just a routineshe was trying to get through.
It was a burden in her day justpart of I got to drop the kids
(36:24):
off but to her daughter it waseverything.
And when you ask that question,when you feel that you matter
to me, what am I doing?
You get data that will help youlead someone else, help you
parent someone else, help you togive somebody the ultimate gift
meet the most primal instinctwe have as human beings, which
(36:46):
is to have someone that wematter to.
We have, as human beings, whichis to have someone that we
matter to, and that is the mostpowerful data.
No engagement survey, no climatesurvey, no organizational
assessment.
No program can give you thatdata.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
That is the new sticky note going up on my
computer screen to guide me andto guide my conversations with
other folks.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Yeah, when you feel that you matter.
And you can even say you knowwhen you feel that you matter
here what are we doing?
Yeah, I wish that every teacherasked that of every student,
every leader asked that of everyemployee, every politician,
asked that of every communitymember.
Yeah, every parent asks that ofevery child and I think that
(37:33):
that's the way forward.
I mean, that's the way we'regoing to, the way out of our
disconnection crisis happens insmall, small interactions.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Zach, thank you so much.
We're going to have to leave itthere, and that's a beautiful
place to leave it.
Yeah, where can people find you, more about you and your work
and connect with you?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
ZachRecuriocom.
I know very original there yougo.
But also I want to point out,at the top there's a Learn tab.
Click on that and go toMattering.
Also there is a I want to pointout at the top, you know,
there's a learn tab.
Yeah, click on that and go tomattering and there's like a
mattering center where you can.
You don't have to give me youremail address.
You can downloadself-assessment.
You can download templates onhow to give better.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Thank, yous, I love this.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
You can download ways to show people how they're
needed.
Just take it, use it, do it,replicate it.
Awesome.
So that's what I wouldrecommend.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I just love this conversation.
Yeah, and I'm so glad you'redoing this work and sharing it
wide and far.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Thank you.
Thank you for spreading it.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
And that's the show.
Unserious is produced by MicahBono.
Special thanks to our guest,Zach Mercurio.
If this episode made you thinkof someone who helped you feel
seen, send them the link.
It's an easy way to say thanksand to help Unserious reach more
thought listeners like you.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
(39:01):
You can keep up with us onLinkedIn or on Instagram at
unseriousfun or on our website,unseriouscom.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Oh, that was a little zinger, that was a doozy.
This is Unserious.
You spoke up, but no one heard.
It's that quiet ache ofinsignificance.
It might be the mostdestructive force in today's
workplace.
At work, we push performance,efficiency, speed at any means
necessary.
But maybe the secret to it allis something simpler.
Today we're talking aboutmattering, not the existential
(00:41):
kind so much, but how we makeeach other feel at work, because
now as much as ever, we need tofeel like we matter.
I'm Molly McMahon here with myco-host, jb Skelton, hey, and
(01:02):
we're joined today by ZachMercurio of Today's Leading
Voices on Purpose-DrivenLeadership and author of the new
bestseller Power of Mattering.
He's a researcher, advisor andeducator who's helped everyone,
from Fortune 100 companies toschool custodians, understand
the importance of significance.
Zach, thank you for joining uson Unserious Welcome.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's so great to have you here.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Thank you, Molly.
Thank you, Molly.
Thank you, JB.
Glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, we're so glad you're here.
You start your book with astriking idea that the first
thing we do as humans is reachout, trying to matter to someone
.
And actually just yesterday acoworker of mine asked me if her
son could text me, because hegets so excited when the three
little dots pop up on the phone.
And so I'm wondering how doesthat instinct evolve as we grow
(01:50):
up, and what happens when it'snot met?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
The first thing we do is reach out for significance.
It's our most primal instinctand, if you think about this,
none of us would be here rightnow if we hadn't mattered enough
to someone else along the wayto keep us alive.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Can you explain what mattering really is?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yeah.
So that instinct to matter aswe grow up it turns into the
fundamental need to feel seen,heard, valued and needed by
those around us.
It never goes away.
It's a constant driver.
In fact, think about this youwouldn't have done much of
anything today If, at some smalllevel, you didn't believe that
your life was worthy of yourunrelenting energy.
(02:36):
Right, mattering animates life.
Mattering animates behavior.
It's why we keep going.
Is that we believe in some waywe matter, animates behavior.
It's why we keep going?
Is that we believe in some waywe matter.
When that need to matter is met, when we experience feeling
seen, heard, valued and neededby those around us, we
experience what psychologistscall mattering, which is the
feeling of being significant andfeeling significant to those
around us.
(02:57):
That comes from feeling valuedby them and knowing how we add
value to their lives.
So mattering is an experienceand it's interpersonally driven.
So I have an elementary schoolaged kid, I have two 10 and 7.
So recess drama is really high,so I'll use a recess example.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Do it.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Is feeling picked for the team.
It's being picked to play right.
Inclusion is being asked toplay in the game.
So inclusion is being invitedand able to take an active role
in a group, but mattering isfeeling that the team wouldn't
be complete without you.
Mattering is feelingsignificant to individuals.
So I can feel like I'm welcomeand connected and that I belong
(03:40):
in this group right now.
But you could not know thatsomeone in my family is in the
hospital and I'm a caretaker.
You may not be able to name myunique gifts, you might not be
showing me how I'm needed.
So I can feel like I belong andthat I'm included and not feel
significant to you.
And so mattering isinterpersonally driven.
It's the interpersonalexperience of feeling
(04:02):
significant to the person you'reinteracting with.
It's different from self-esteem, because it's a prerequisite
for self-esteem.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Self-esteem is our sense of worth.
One of the misnomers over thepast 50 years of self-help
culture is that we can developself-esteem on our own, that we
can sit in our office and sayyou are enough, you are enough
and chant affirmations to ourourselves and that will be
enough.
But the problem is is that ashumans, we're interdependent, so
we get cues in our environmentfrom others that reflect back on
(04:33):
us who we actually are.
The only way we know who we areis in community with others.
These are things calledreflected appraisals, where
people give us feedback.
They give us evidence of oursignificance, which helps us
reinforce the belief that we'resignificant, which then
reinforces the belief in ourworth and our capability.
So it's both.
There's two sides of it.
(04:54):
We have to believe in ourselves, but we also have to be in
relationships that give us theevidence of our significance to
maintain that belief, and that'sthe reinforcing loop.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Wow, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit
about what?
Or talk about anti-matteringand I know this is not a Star
Trek reference.
I assume you describe it as amattering deficit.
Can you explain what it is andhow it shows up in the workplace
?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yeah, so again, the experience of not mattering is
like being in a room full ofpeople, maybe even friends, and
feeling completely overlooked.
There are two things that tendto happen when we feel that we
don't matter.
One is we either withdraw, weisolate, we withhold, we quiet
quit.
I know that was a big trend Imean the fact that that trend
(05:47):
went viral should be concerningfor everybody.
I mean, quiet quitting was bornby a TikTok influencer, a
career coach, who said if youdon't like your job, just do the
bare minimum to get by.
I mean, human beings were notmeant to do the bare minimum.
We're meant to matter, but orit can result in acts of
desperation.
There's a there's a story of aprisoner who was found outside
(06:12):
by the fence.
He was out.
He was out.
All he had to do was leave.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But he wouldn't leave .
He just sat there and theguards got him and they said
what are you doing?
And what we know?
The prison psychologist saidwhy didn't you leave?
And he said I just wanted to becaught because I wanted someone
to pay attention to me.
I wanted to know if I reallyexisted, I wanted to know if I
mattered.
He felt so unseen, so ignored,so overlooked on the inside that
(06:40):
he literally took the desperateaction to escape, just to be
caught so someone would payattention to him.
When we feel insignificant, justlike with any instinct, that's
unmet the instinct to sleep isnot met, the instinct to eat is
not met, our bodies and ourbrains revolt and react very
strongly.
Sometimes it can manifest inbullying behavior, gossiping.
Martin Luther King said thatprotest is the language of the
(07:02):
unheard.
When those things happen in anorganization, they create a
sense of learned helplessnessand they actually undermine
really all of the things that wesay we want.
Because if I were to reallysummarize the research on things
like work motivation over thelast 50 years, I would say that
it's almost impossible foranything to matter to someone
(07:23):
who doesn't first believe thatthey matter.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, can we talk about that experience of
anti-mattering, that learnedhelplessness, that withdrawing
from work?
In current world of work, manyof us are in jobs where we're in
constant transformation, likeit's, those cycles of change are
(07:49):
only increasing more and moreand as we look ahead, we can
often see the age of AI andlayoffs around the corner.
And so how do you navigate thisfeeling of insignificance when
there's so much turmoil andchange happening around us?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And the good news is that if I were to ask you when
you feel that you most matter inyour work, have all listeners
to think about that.
When do you?
most feel that you matter toother people in your work, you
will likely not think of bigactions.
We've asked that question tothousands of people.
No one's ever said, oh, thatrestructure really helped.
(08:30):
Or when I got that promotion, Ireally felt that I mattered.
Or when I got my new perkpackage or my work from home
benefits.
Or no one's ever said, when Igot a big award or when I got my
direct deposit.
We've never had anybody talkabout a big action.
It happens in smallinteractions.
What's actually liberatingabout that is that means that
our next Great Leadership Act isreally in our next interaction.
(08:53):
Mattering happens throughinteractions, not through awards
, perks or programs.
One signal of this to look atis the persistent.
I mean, how many times do wehave to get a Gallup engagement
report to tell us how disengagedwe are right?
Oh yeah, in January 2025,gallup released a report.
It's at its lowest rate in adecade.
(09:16):
We have to really dissect this,though, because employee
engagement has become a $1billion industry.
We've invested millions inwell-being programs, dei
programs, perks, culture hascome and gone.
Nothing's moved the needle.
You have to peel back the layera little bit and look at two
data points.
One is just 39% of that samplein that survey the lowest it's
(09:37):
ever been said that theystrongly agreed that someone at
work cared for them as a person.
Just 30% of that sample couldstrongly agree that someone at
work cared for them as a person.
Just 30% of that sample couldstrongly agree that someone at
work could identify and investit in their unique potential.
This mirrors data from WorkHumanshowing 30% of people in 2024,
30% of nearly 30,000 employeesself-reported.
(09:58):
They quote unquote feltinvisible at work.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's crazy.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, this is something that cannot be solved
by a program, it cannot besolved by perks, it cannot be
solved by restructure, it canonly be solved in interactions.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
And we've heard you say like hurry and care can't
coexist.
Can you unpack that also,because there is this like
desire for speed, efficiencyoptimizing.
So how does speed cultureundercut that significance, or
what can you do to improve thatsignificance within a speed
culture?
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, so there's two barriers to why this is
happening.
I don't think anybody gets upin the morning and is like I'm
going to be an uncaring leadertoday.
I'm going to make the personacross from me feel
insignificant.
I think what's happening isthat the skills to do that have
eroded over the last 25 yearsand our environments are
(10:53):
actually making it harder for usto do it.
There's nothing more frustratedthan knowing what the right
thing is to do and not havingthe skills to do it, or being in
an environment that makes ithard to do it.
I mean, that's the ultimatefrustration.
I think many leaders are livingin that world.
You know.
The first thing that'shappening is that we can use
these things to communicate withone another.
For the past 25 years, we'vebeen able to communicate in very
(11:13):
short digital transactions withone another, and while a lot of
like well known psychologistshave said that that's our
problem, we need to put down ourphones and reconnect.
Putting down your phones willnot solve disconnection if you
don't know what to do when youput down your phones.
So we've actually lost theability to connect with one
(11:33):
another.
So, molly, if you give me somegood news, I can just give you a
little thumbs up emoji and say,hey, great, great job.
I don't have to sit with youanymore and say I'm really proud
of you.
I've noticed how hard you'vebeen working on that.
If JB says gives me some badnews, I can just give him a
thumbs down emoji and say sorryto hear that let's catch up next
week.
I don't have to sit with himanymore and seek understanding
and show compassion.
So the less we've been usingthese skills, the less
(12:07):
proficient that we've gotten atthem.
But the other piece is thatwe've used technology for
efficiency, which is good, butwe're also inundated with more
than ever.
I can now be in a meeting andworking on something else at the
same time and our attentionspans have dwindled as a result.
Gloria Mark, a greatpsychologist, has found that our
attention, our ability to payattention to one thing, even the
person in front of us 10 yearsago was about two and a half
minutes and now it's about 47seconds.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
So if we don't have the attention, if we don't have
the time, if we don't have theintention, it's very difficult
for someone to feel cared for.
Think about the last time youwere able to care for anything
whether it's a pet, snake, aplant or a person when you
didn't understand them.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Understand it.
Care requires understanding,understanding requires time and
attention and skill.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Hey, zach, welcome to Hire Fireboss.
It's a quick fire game where wegive our guests a fictional
scenario and three characters.
You've got to hire one, you'vegot to fire one and one will be
your boss.
The task at hand is you've beenhired to transform a burned out
, underperforming team into athriving, high trust workplace,
(13:21):
and you have no budget for pingpong tables.
Your team of potential culturalshapers are number one Joanna
Gaines, modern farmhousewhisperer.
Rebuild systems and spaces withintention, shiplap and ferns.
The second of your cultureshapers is the one and only
(13:45):
Kelly Clarkson Unfiltered upbeatand sings your Q3 goals into a
power ballad.
She's a national treasure onyour team Slack.
And the last is Adam Grantpowered by data and dad jokes,
brings receipts to everyconversation and will
respectfully challenge yourentire worldview.
(14:07):
All right, think about thatcrew.
Jb, I'm looking at you too.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
This is a real doozy.
I haven't used that word inages, I just want to know yeah,
yeah.
It's a good word.
I know what I'm going to dohere.
I'm going to hire Kelly.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Oh, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Yes, because I think that Kelly is going to
authentically both hear people,see people.
I think she's also going togive us the real deal, I mean
mean like what she really thinks, and that's important data that
we're going to need in thetransformation.
We need people to be able tospeak up.
Yeah, she has a lot of courage,confidence to do that.
I'm gonna fire joanna okay, okayum, because culture isn't about
(14:50):
what it looks like, it's aboutwhat it is.
I think that you know, you can.
I don't need somebody to curatean image, I need somebody to
act, behave in a certain way.
Yeah, and then I'm going tohave Adam be the boss, only
because I think that everyperson who's responsible for
other people should know as muchas they can about human beings,
(15:13):
like I think that leaders mustbe experts in human wellbeing
and human beings, and he hasthat foundational knowledge to
do that.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Wow, that I mean.
That's a dream team that youput together.
Jb, how would you put togetheryour team?
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So I, I'm, I'm with you, zach.
I'm firing Joanna.
Same reason, um, but I, Iactually flipped it.
I'm going to, I'm going to hireAdam.
I think it would be more fun towork alongside him and have
somebody who is more of apractitioner as your um, uh,
(15:52):
that that you are, uh, that isactually doing the work, and I
feel like Kelly is more of avision person and is like a big
rallier, but but less, uh, lessdirectional.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
yeah, yeah she would potentially provide more
autonomy.
You know, know whether?
I mean because Adam could.
I could see that Adam couldhave a right way of doing things
.
I've had interactions and sothere might be a way of doing
things that are best supportedby evidence.
But things that work in theorydon't always work in practice,
(16:28):
that's correct.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
True, I actually wouldn't that be fun.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Wouldn't that be fun to work with on Adam and be like
, Wouldn't that?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
be fun to work with on Adam and be like see, doesn't
work Right, and then have Kellysing a song about how it didn't
work.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
That's right, and it would be just fine, because then
everyone would be able toiterate on it so that it did
work right for their culture.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah and right, but Adam should be willing to
rethink.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Oh, that was a little zinger.
That was a doozy.
That was a doozy.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Only one who loves a dad.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yep, you know, I actually fired Adam because I
feel like, because I think Adamis, he's up there to inspire and
get us thinking up and beyond,and I actually I think that we
all might be living in JoannaGaines's world, I think she has
built this like she's a giantfamily.
She owns a media empire andshe's constantly rebuilding
(17:26):
things.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I know it's just this particular job.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
That's the only.
That's where I I have enormousrespect for Joanna Gaines, yeah,
but when you put her on, whenwe look at this assignment,
that's where I differ on.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, I don't know.
Seems like she could doanything and I definitely want
to work with Kelly Clarkson.
I would love to sing out our Q3goals.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
So we're all working with Kelly in some capacity.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, yeah, definitely 100% Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That's the comment.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Okay, I think that says a lot.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right, yeah, I think it does too.
She's great.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, that was fun.
I kind of want to do anotherone now.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Well, we actually got to get an interview out of the
way, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I know we got to actually give people what they
want, right.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I don't know how you, how know how things are in
Colorado.
Here in the Valley, we arestill very much hybrid and
remote work led and ever sincethe pandemic that has never
really reversed.
How does that shift towardsmore flexible ways of working,
contribute to the lack offeeling like like you matter on
(18:37):
your teams?
I know that some days I thinkhere I am, I'm working from my
living room all by myself, yeah,yeah, and, and, and.
I'm a writer, I work in commsand so that's like that's the
job, yeah.
But it's also like you justdon't get, you don't feel like
(19:01):
you're getting all the feedbackand those interactions and the
affirmations.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah, what's happened is in remote work.
We've tended to use technologyfor efficiency and not
connection, so our interactionsactually become shorter when
we're remote and we actuallydon't know what's happening
because we assume people don'twant to be on another.
Teams call or Zoom call.
So we make it shorter.
The other thing it allows us todo is it allows us to click
(19:28):
leave.
So when we're done, right, sowe don't think about this, but I
have this button right here onthis platform Leave.
So, jb, say that you're feelingfrustrated in the meeting,
meeting time's over, I get toclick leave and I don't have to
think about you until next week.
That's not normal.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
And usually what would happen is that you sort of
walk out of the meeting and youhave like a private aside,
right?
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yeah, or I have to like seek understanding.
You know I'm working for a lawfirm that has everybody's remote
.
They also work on individualcases, so they're very siloed
already.
And one of the things that westarted implementing is the
managing partners will just dothese three minute micro
check-ins.
So they've committed to if theysee somebody's frustrated or
(20:14):
they see somebody's like showinglower energy or they notice
something, one of their norms ofbehavior is to pick up the
phone and to call them after themeeting and say hey, I noticed
you're frustrated, is that right?
Like what's going on?
Those moments of connection arepossible in remote settings,
like those in-between moments,but we have to start thinking
about using technology forconnection Also.
(20:42):
You know, one of the peoplesaid well, I think that if I
called one of my team membersout of the blue, they would be
fearful.
And I said that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Our fix is often more connections, more meetings,
more Slack messages, morechannels, more culture programs,
and it sounds like what you'resaying is this is not about more
, it's about quality and thislike lines up with this lines up
with like a lot of the researchthat we've done.
When we've done these bigsurveys across organizations
(21:07):
about, sort of like, where arethe gaps in communication?
It always comes down to themanager.
One-on-one is the most valuablehalf hour or 45 minutes or hour
of the week for any individualcontributor, and to be seen and
heard and connected in that timeis so important, is so
(21:38):
important, and what we wouldhear often in the anecdotal is
that like, oh, my manager's likeon Slack or during the meeting
or the meeting keeps on gettingpunted or whatever.
So as I was reading your book,it reminded me of this line that
I had thought about a lot,which is that lots of managers
use every interaction with me tomake sure that I know that
(21:59):
they're important, but theleaders that I really love
working with use everyinteraction with me to make sure
that I know that I'm important.
And so what is it exactly thatthese leaders are doing?
What are they actually doingdifferently in a normal day?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and one of the things is that they're not
leaving it up to chance.
It's intentional, and some ofthe best leaders that I've
worked with tend to obsessivelyread about this.
Learn about how humans interact.
They know that the craft ofleading someone else is its own
occupation.
(22:38):
Yeah Right, I was just talkingto a group of engineers at a
university who are engineeringprofessors, who are now in
leadership positions, and wekept talking about this
difference between doing the joband being responsible for
caring for the people doing thejob and how it requires such a
different skill set and itrequires different competencies.
What we found is there's threemajor practices and I call these
(23:04):
practices because a practice issomething that you consistently
work on and reflect on andthese three practices that when
we ask people, when your leadermakes you feel that you matter,
what are they doing, weconsistently hear that the
leader helps them feel noticed.
They're noticers.
Difference between knowingsomebody and noticing them.
I can know you, jb, becausewe've worked together for a long
(23:26):
time, and not notice thatyou're struggling.
I can know you, molly, but notnotice that you're feeling left
out of discussions and takeaction on that.
Notice that you're feeling leftout of discussions and take
action on that.
Noticing is a deliberate act ofpaying attention to the details
, the ebbs, the flows ofsomeone's work and life and
(23:46):
offering them a proactive actionto show them that you remember
them.
The other thing that they do isthey tend to affirm people.
They don't just appreciate them, they don't just give them
awards to recognize their work.
They show them and reveal tothem regularly the specific
evidence of their uniquedifference that they make.
Example of this, there was aNational Park Service facilities
maintenance supervisor that wasreally high performing because
(24:08):
he had the park that had thelowest turnover, highest morale,
and I got to go observe him andhe was like the practice I do
that really makes the mostdifference, isn't really
anything I even say I just walkthe park every week.
I take a picture of projects myteam worked on, like if the
bridge was repaired and visitorswere walking over the bridge.
I take a picture of them doingthat.
(24:29):
I take a picture of a trailpeople were working on and then
on Friday morning I send themost popular email I send every
week, which is the look what youdid email.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I love this.
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
And it just says the subject line is look what you
did, and this is why I lovestudying leaders, because it's
such a sophisticated practice.
But it's really amazing becausehe just attaches the pictures
and you know what he told me.
He goes.
No one can argue with me thatthey matter, because I have
photographic evidence that youmatter.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
And then the final piece is they show people that
they're needed.
I mean, they use words like ifit wasn't for you.
You know everybody here.
Think of someone you rely onNow.
Think of the last time youexplicitly told them you rely on
Now.
Think of the last time youexplicitly told them.
Great leaders close that gapbetween feelings of gratitude
and actions of gratitude.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So this really, this really reminds me of the show
called Romper Room, kind of likebefore or after Mr Rogers, and
the teacher would end the showwith a bunch of kids and have
this magic mirror that she wouldhold up.
She would name every singleperson in the class and she
(25:45):
would say I see Oliver, I seeSally, I see Zach.
You were just hanging on theteacher's words to be like is
she going to say my name?
She never said JB by the way,but AI could recreate that.
(26:06):
I'm sure it could, but it's sobasic and, as I think about this
in this conversation, a lot ofwhat you're talking about is
this level of care and thisunderstanding of significance to
one another.
This is how you demonstratelove with a partner, this is and
(26:29):
with friends, and it's also andlike.
We don't talk about love atwork very often because it's
like it's an uncomfortable word,but this seems to be like it's
a real need that we all have andit's like and it is very much
related.
How does this like, how doesthis work around?
(26:51):
Mattering and significancerelate to, relate to love.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Well, I mean, you mentioned something earlier that
I think we need to highlight,which is that, when it comes to
like reducing loneliness orenhancing our sense of
connectivity with one another,it's not the quantity of
connection that matters, it'sthe quality and when researchers
study what makes a qualityinteraction.
They use a term.
It's called companionate love.
(27:18):
This is different thanpassionate love.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
But when we hear the word love, we often think of
passionate love like romanticlove, yeah, but companionate
love is having someone payattention to us.
It's having someone showcompassion for us.
It's having someone affirm usall of the behaviors that help
us feel that we matter.
So the opposite of things likeloneliness is not having more
people around you.
It's feeling that you matter tothe people around you, and
(27:45):
there's management researchersthat have identified that it's
companionate love that isactually the most important
aspect in a workplacerelationship that results in
performance and low levels ofloneliness, and so you're right
on to bring that term love up.
But you went to education andsomething happened recently that
(28:07):
I wanted to share and there wasa teacher that was working with
elementary school students in avery high risk area and she had
like really good, good numberswhen it came to reducing
absences and reducing truancy.
And I went and talked to herand I said what do you do?
And she goes well when astudent's absent, I don't ask
them why they were absent.
(28:28):
I don't tell them that they'regoing to get a number of
attendance points if they haveto go to the office.
The first thing I tell them is Isay to them and it's kind of
emotional to think about this,but I say to them your friends
weren't laughing as much becauseyou weren't here yesterday.
I didn't see when you werelining up to go to the cafeteria
, when you usually make jokeswith your friends, I could see
(28:49):
that they were just lookingahead.
They weren't as engaged withoutyou here today and I want to
let you know that it wasn't thesame.
And she says that when someone'sabsent, she makes sure of that
that they know that they weremissed.
And she said usually withinabout a week it corrects itself.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
That's really great.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
But I think that, going up to the workplace level,
we were interviewing peopleabout their experiences at work
and when they most felt thatthey mattered.
And this one woman she's aconsultant and she mentioned,
like seven years ago, when aleader said to her in a meeting
Katie, when you don't speak up,our team misses out.
You don't speak up, our teammisses out.
(29:31):
And she said it was just thatlike.
It was that like three seconds,three seconds of feeling, I
mean feeling that your presenceand your absence means something
to just one other person thatactually, she told me, kept her
in her career.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I worked for quite a while in school systems and in
the Mississippi Delta there wasa network of KIPP schools where
the principals would meet thebuses every morning when kids
got off the bus and shake everykid's hand and in that moment
you knew exactly what hadhappened the night before or in
the morning with that child andyou knew what kind of day that
(30:06):
they were going to have.
And that is such and there's somuch dignity in that.
It's very welcoming, it likegives you so much information
and I think about you know thisnotion of companionate, love,
and I'm wondering how do youscale that, what are things that
can, that can be put into placeso that you actually start to
create this movement ofcompanionate, companionate, love
(30:29):
.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
That's a tongue twister for me.
That's not easy to say.
It's not easy to say I'll justlove words like that, like
phrases like that.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I'm like, can I say it?
I'm going to do it, I'm goingto do it.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Well, what's that old cliche?
I mean, cliches are greatbecause they're cliches, because
they're true, but the cliche islike love is a verb.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It's an action.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Creating mattering is an action.
It's a set of skills and habitswe can learn.
So often, when it comes toleading people, we've relied on
intuition, but intuition doesnot scale you can't scale being
a good person Skills and habitsscale.
So I think organizations thatmove beyond just hey, re-engage
your team or fosterpsychological safety on your
(31:11):
team or make sure to createdevelopment pathways and support
your team members withoutequipping their leaders with the
skills and making sure theenvironment promotes the habits
of doing these things.
I think it's important.
I'll give you like one skillthat you can scale per each of
those practice areas.
Like, let's look at noticing.
One of the things that greatnoticers do is they ask better
(31:33):
questions, so they go beyond thegreeting.
How are you, how's?
your day, how's your shift going?
Those are greetings, they'renot questions.
If someone asks me how are you,I mean my brain.
I have a snake, two dogs, twokids.
I can't compute the last 12hours of living a complex human
life, so I just say good you.
Nobody gets anything from that.
(31:54):
When a leader says to theirteam how's everybody doing Good?
Imagine if you weren't good,Would you say not?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
me.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Or I hope everybody's doing well, but asking
questions like making sure yourteam, every leader, knows how to
ask a question that's clear,that's open, that's exploratory,
like what has your attentiontoday?
What kinds of log jams have youbeen experiencing on that
project and how can I help?
What have you been strugglingwith?
What would you do if you wereme?
What should I start doing?
What should I stop doing tomake your work easier?
(32:25):
Those are questions thatactually give you the data to
see people.
Yeah, so for noticing, do yourpeople know how to do that?
The same thing with showingpeople that they're affirmed
Instead of saying thank you,you're a good job in your
organization make sure people gobeyond and know how to show
people the difference they makeand how they make it.
(32:47):
Do they know how to namepeople's unique gifts?
Do they know how to tell astory of significance?
Do they know how to take thepicture metaphorically and give
someone the indisputableevidence of their significance?
And then you know, do they usethe words if it wasn't for you?
Often Do they?
Know how to ladder someone upfrom their tasks and their
(33:07):
inputs to how it's measurablyneeded and you know.
Start there and start thinkingof what are our skills gaps?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Where do?
Speaker 3 (33:14):
we need to develop these skills.
And how will we measure theseskills?
By self-assessment andmeasuring team members on
mattering, and that's where thisstarts to get legs.
This is where it starts toscale.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I mean I love all of this and I think like those
really clear, like prompts are.
I mean, those are the types ofthings that I try to have around
my computer screen,particularly when I'm heading
into meetings, so that you cancreate this open dialogue.
One thing that I've heard youtalk about is like the
opportunities in the AI era tohave a relationship era, Because
(33:47):
I think a lot of us areentering the AI era with some
fear and then being like we gotto learn this or we're going to
be irrelevant.
But I think you might have somewisdom for folks around that.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Don't be afraid of AI , because AI can never take
responsibility.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Only humans can.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
AI can do the task.
It can't be responsible for thetask.
Only humans will be able to havemoral responsibility to one
another, so you can prompt AI todo whatever you want.
I was just talking to a bigretail client.
You can have an AI chatbotguide someone through an
interaction, but they can't beresponsible for the interaction.
So our responsibility to oneanother is something that AI
(34:30):
cannot replace, and to beresponsible to one another
requires building trust.
Building trust requires care,and that's why I think we are
entering the relationshipeconomy.
We're entering the relationshipera where our ability to build
trust with one another, to beaccountable to one another as
human beings, to takeresponsibility for how other
(34:51):
people are experiencing theworld that we're an active
constructor in, is going to bethe most sought after skill in
the age of AI.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I mean that is a lot to be optimistic about.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yes, I'm very optimistic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is a lotto be optimistic about?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yes, I'm very optimistic, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, one of the lines from your book that stuck
with me was that you can't carefor something that you don't
understand, which was a reallybeautiful way of putting that.
(35:36):
How?
Speaker 3 (35:42):
can our listeners start building their own
literacy in this area?
I think that one of the mostpowerful questions that you
could ask anybody in anyrelationship is when you feel
that you matter to me, what am Idoing?
I posed this question and I hada again, this is a little bit
emotional because I had a readerwho read an article where I
(36:03):
posed this question and sheposted on LinkedIn that she
asked her 13-year-old daughterthat that she was having trouble
connecting with and herdaughter said it was the rides
to school where they're justlistening to music and talking.
But she never knew that.
So to her it was just a routineshe was trying to get through.
It was a burden in her day justpart of I got to drop the kids
(36:24):
off but to her daughter it waseverything.
And when you ask that question,when you feel that you matter
to me, what am I doing?
You get data that will help youlead someone else, help you
parent someone else, help you togive somebody the ultimate gift
meet the most primal instinctwe have as human beings, which
(36:46):
is to have someone that wematter to.
We have, as human beings, whichis to have someone that we
matter to, and that is the mostpowerful data.
No engagement survey, no climatesurvey, no organizational
assessment.
No program can give you thatdata.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
That is the new sticky note going up on my
computer screen to guide me andto guide my conversations with
other folks.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Yeah, when you feel that you matter.
And you can even say you knowwhen you feel that you matter
here what are we doing?
Yeah, I wish that every teacherasked that of every student,
every leader asked that of everyemployee, every politician,
asked that of every communitymember.
Yeah, every parent asks that ofevery child and I think that
(37:33):
that's the way forward.
I mean, that's the way we'regoing to, the way out of our
disconnection crisis happens insmall, small interactions.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Zach, thank you so much.
We're going to have to leave itthere, and that's a beautiful
place to leave it.
Yeah, where can people find you, more about you and your work
and connect with you?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
ZachRecuriocom.
I know very original there yougo.
But also I want to point out,at the top there's a Learn tab.
Click on that and go toMattering.
Also there is a I want to pointout at the top, you know,
there's a learn tab.
Yeah, click on that and go tomattering and there's like a
mattering center where you can.
You don't have to give me youremail address.
You can downloadself-assessment.
You can download templates onhow to give better.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Thank, yous, I love this.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
You can download ways to show people how they're
needed.
Just take it, use it, do it,replicate it.
Awesome.
So that's what I wouldrecommend.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I just love this conversation.
Yeah, and I'm so glad you'redoing this work and sharing it
wide and far.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Thank you.
Thank you for spreading it.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
And that's the show.
Unserious is produced by MicahBono.
Special thanks to our guest,Zach Mercurio.
If this episode made you thinkof someone who helped you feel
seen, send them the link.
It's an easy way to say thanksand to help Unserious reach more
thought listeners like you.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
(39:01):
You can keep up with us onLinkedIn or on Instagram at
unseriousfun or on our website,unseriouscom.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Oh, that was a little zinger, that was a doozy.
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