December 12, 2024 • 37 mins
They say the average person sees something like 10K ads per day. A constant flood of messages and hooks, all vying for a sliver of our attention. So what does it take to be noticed? To be memorable? To be relevant? One way is to create moments that aren’t just seen, but are lived.
In this episode, J.B. explores the extraordinary with Judy Lee, Senior Director of Global Brand Experiences at Pinterest. The conversation is packed with ideas for live events and experiences that work in a new era where inspiration and authenticity take center stage.
"It's not as much about 'let me take a photo of me being somewhere.' It's more about 'I want to experience something authentic...' We always have to think about who are we serving, how can we be additive to their lives?" - Judy Lee
Follow Judy on LinkedIn and Instagram @judyleebk.
Mentioned in this episode:
Producer and editor: Micah Vono
Story producer and editor: Sarah Kuck
Associate producer: Justin Toy
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Unserious.
Research varies, but it'sestimated that the average
person sees somewhere in theneighborhood of 10,000 ads per
day.
Most of them we don'tconsciously notice and some of
them take a few times to clickin.
(00:26):
But think about that a constantflood of messages and hooks,
all vying for a sliver of ourattention.
So what does it take to benoticed, to be memorable, to be
relevant?
Well, one way is to createmoments that aren't just seen
but are lived.
I'm JB Skelton.
Molly McMahon is off this week.
(00:49):
Nine years ago, at the end of asolo trip in Thailand, I got a
surprise message for one of myfavorite colleagues, judy Lee,
who was wrapping up her own tripto Southeast Asia.
We spent the day exploringBangkok the food, the malls, the
Jim Thompson house and in thatshared experience we made a hard
(01:09):
pivot from colleagues tofriends.
I think it's the perfectreflection of Judy's work,
pulling people out of theireveryday lives into
extraordinary places andsituations situations.
Today, judy leads global brandexperiences and programs at
Pinterest, where she createsmeaningful experiences for
(01:30):
clients, partners and the publicat industry events and
festivals.
Welcome to Unserious Judy.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thank you for having me, JB.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
For me, what makes experiences memorable are the
emotions that they conjure andthe senses that they engage, and
that always sounds kind of likeI'm talking about vibes, which
kind of sounds silly.
But if we agree that you'regoing to like the experiences
that you're designing are goingfor vibes, how do you get the
(02:01):
vibes right every single time?
How do you, how do you make?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
vibes a science.
You know it's funny.
At one point we always like toanoint different people on our
team with different like titles,and I had anointed one woman as
a chief vibe officer, and sowe're always like make sure the
vibes are immaculate in terms ofwhat we're doing.
So I do totally get that.
I feel like a big piece of whatwe do is we really try to.
(02:28):
We have a few principles thatwe work off of at Pinterest.
I've been there for about sevenyears, so we've really developed
this over time and I think partof it is, and what people have
really come to know us for isthat they get to do something
really interesting.
We call it more doing, lessviewing.
So whether it's for anadvertiser audience or for a
(02:48):
consumer audience, we always tryto help people like do things
so that it feels really engagingand active.
And then I think the second bigprinciple of what we do is we
try to.
You know we call Pinterest likethe positive corner of the
internet and we really like tobe as inclusive as possible, and
so I think that's reflected ineverything that we do, from
(03:08):
casting to brand ambassadors, totalent and who can have access
to the spaces, and I thinkthat's something that people
really have come to know us for.
Similar to how they feel on theapp, we want them to feel
similarly with our experiencesin real life.
And then the last kind of thingI usually try to think through
is just really consider whereyou are the local environment,
(03:32):
the culture, essentially likethe worst thing we could do is
like have closed off, enclosedmeeting room spaces versus airy
things where you can see thelight and all of that.
So I think we try to do thateverywhere we go.
It's like consider where we are.
What would you want to be doingif you were engaging with us?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
All of these things have to hit brand objectives and
business objectives, yeah, solet's look at a couple of
projects that you've put outinto the world in the last year
that I really thought was cool.
The first one was PinterestPredicts, which was a retail
pop-up that you built in themeatpacking district last year,
(04:10):
which showcased trends for 2024.
Tell us more about thisexperience.
What was the objective for itand how did you put it together?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
To start with, if people don't know, pinterest
predicts is our like almosttrending report, and they've
been super successful in callingout trends.
So if you've seen, like bowseverywhere, bow stacking was a
big trend.
Eclectic grandma Naomi Osaka,exactly, exactly, that's right
With her new Nike and Ambushoutfit, which I'm obsessed with.
And this is also right beforeBeyonce's Renaissance tour was
(04:42):
going on and we called out hotmetals, which are like a lot of
silvers and gold, so thatdefinitely felt like it was on
trend as well.
So, essentially, part of ourobjective of this shop and this
is our first time we had done aconsumer activation was like how
can we bring a few trends tolife but also make them
shoppable?
Some Pinterest were all aboutproviding people with
(05:03):
inspiration.
People plan things there, theydream about their futures, but
then we want to help themmanifest them, which is also the
core to some of our otherthemes and names, and so with
our shop, we brought some of thetrends to life and they were
all shoppable via QR code.
So if you're really into bows,we had a ton of different bows
there that people could choosefrom and purchase online.
(05:25):
Bee jelly was also a trend,like the jellyfish trend, like
in terms of, like it,influencing makeup or hair and
all of that.
That was super fun.
We got to work with twodifferent brand partners.
So one of our trends was calledblue beauty, so it's a lot
about blue makeup.
And so we worked with Mac andpeople could get like different
blue makeup looks done there andalso get some free samples,
(05:46):
which were really great.
And then another one was kindof like this upcycling type of
vibe called Give a Scrap, and weworked with Levi's and then
they kind of worked oncustomizing different items
whether there are some shirts,hats, bandanas how did it all
come together?
Shirts, hats, bandanas how didit all come together?
(06:07):
Having that short ramp up timefrom basically the end of
September to the first week ofDecember is kind of insane and
it was definitely a bigproduction.
So our design team, ourcreative team, came up with the
look and feel, which was juststunning.
If you ever go topinterestpredictscom, like, the
visuals are just amazing.
And so we were able to kind ofuse that as like a inspiration
board for us, if you will, andum, and we partnered with one of
(06:30):
our agency partners, amplifyand so they helped us kind of
bring the whole whole thing tolife, everything from finding
the venue to um, working with uson talent and brand partners
just all of the stuff that makesone of those a success anybody
who's worked in events andthings that come to life in the
real world knows that there'salways a hitch.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
What made this one extra hard?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
You know, from the short ramp up time and then also
working with brand partners,because everyone's got a vision
for how it comes together andbecause it was the first time we
did it, there was just a lot ofproving out to do and so, you
know, some people can reallyvisualize something from a mood
board to what it could be, andthen other people need like
literal schematics.
So just kind of working with alot of different people to get
(07:15):
those approvals, and I think theother thing was also just
really trying to hone down whattrends to highlight, because I
think there are about 20 to 30.
And we could really onlyfeature about like six or seven.
And so just really thinkingthrough what made the most
immersive or visually, like youknow, tantalizing, um, things
like, as you were mentioning,the vibes that you would love to
(07:37):
experience and be a part of andthat aren't kind of like boring
or difficult to bring to life.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I'm sort of living millennial grandpa today.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I call myself a cleptic grandma.
That's like just my thing.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
No, that's you know.
I think that you're, you'resolidly there, but digging in on
that there's like.
Those are two universal things,like helping non-creative
people conceptualize.
Creative work is a constantchallenge when pitching
creativity.
How do you do that successfully?
(08:13):
How do you?
You, you have a lot of practicewith this.
How can, how can our audiencedo this better?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I would say it's sometimes like drawing things
out quite literally or having areally great designer who can
help like mock something up forpeople and, depending on who
we're working with, to getapprovals.
Sometimes we just write up aconcept doc.
They'd rather see words andthen they can visualize, and
then for other people they justwant visuals, no words.
So it's really kind ofunderstanding who your audience
(08:39):
is and what will help bring themalong in the journey.
I think you know the other.
The other thing that reallyhelps is trust, and so that gets
built over time and I think,luckily for me, my team
continues to deliver, deliverand deliver outstanding work.
So we have a lot of trust withour partners.
But anytime there's like a newexternal partner that we're
(09:00):
working with, you have torebuild that.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So the other thing that you mentioned there was
like working with incrediblytight timelines.
How do you do that withoutburning out?
How do you work within thoseconfines?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
successfully.
I think there's like a certaintype of person that loves
experiences.
There's like a hard start and ahard finish, and then like a
little bit of like okay, now Ican take a breath.
And you know, I feel like Icouldn't like do software where
you're just constantly iteratingand there's like never an end
in sight.
Maybe there's a big launch, butlike there, it's like you're
just constantly iterating.
(09:36):
And I think that it's likethere's definitely a certain
personality that loves likeproducing events, and I see that
in the team that I've assembled.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I.
You know what I learned?
That in that you had a newchance every day, right, the
slate was clean every single dayand you had a new opportunity
to like, do it again, and thenyou had instant feedback.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's right.
You can see on people's facesif you did your job or didn't do
your job well.
And I can't share like how manytimes and I get notes from
executives or texts, especiallyduring Cannes they're like I'm
literally crying, like the spaceis amazing.
What you've created was likeoutstanding.
Or just seeing how packed it'sgotten each year, like grown
(10:25):
year over year.
So I think there is somethingwonderful about that immediate
feedback.
You know if it's like adisaster or not just by the look
of some people's faces or,depending on what it is, if
they're running towards you whendoors open.
So that's always reallyexciting.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What were some of the results for Pinterest for Dicks
?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
For Pinterest, for Dicks.
I think our focus there I wouldalways say with consumer events
it's a little harder to likeget all the hard KPIs than it is
for B2B events, but for that itwas around press coverage.
We also looked at scans of theQR codes, like how many people
were shopping, and then, becauseit was the first time we did it
, we just kind of measuredeverything just so we'd have a
(11:05):
baseline for what we'd thinkabout.
So how many people, like thethroughput of people that we got
through.
And then also social likemaking sure like we definitely
had outreach to influencers whohelped amplify what we did and
really extend the reach of theprogram.
And then I believe we also havea quarterly brand equity report
(11:25):
in terms of measuring likeoverall sentiment and how people
are feeling about the brandlet's have a little fun on this
show.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
We play a quick fire game with our guests called hire
fire boss.
We're going to have ahypothetical task and some
fictional candidates.
To accomplish that task, youhave to hire one, fire one, and
one of them will be your boss.
The category today is it'scalled Fashion, Look it Up, and
the task at hand is a majorinternational fashion magazine
is organizing an immersiveluxury fashion pop-up that will
(12:05):
travel through Asia this winterspotlighting ready-to-wear for
fall 25.
The team is some of the mostfamous fashion designers today.
Number one is Daniel Roseberryfrom Schiaparelli, formerly of
Tom Brown.
Number two is Jonathan Andersonof Loewe and Puzzle Bag fame
(12:26):
and JW Anderson fame.
And the third one is StellaMcCartney.
Of course, of the eponymousStella McCartney and the
creative director for Chloe.
You have to hireney.
Of course, of the eponymousStella McCartney and a creative
director for Chloe.
You have to hire one, fire one,and one of them will be your
boss.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Oh, that's really tough.
I feel like I would want tohire Jonathan Anderson.
I don't know who I'd want tofire.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I know this one's really hard.
They're all good.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
They're all really good, but I do think
Schiaparelli just does beautifulwork.
So I think I'd want oh wait,now let me think about this.
Or do I hire Schiaparelli?
Jonathan Anderson is my bossand I fire Stella McCartney.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I have a real hard time firing Stella McCartney.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I do too, but I feel like she has so much she has
like.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Her tailoring is so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
It is phenomenal, and at first I was like oh, do I
want her to be my boss?
But then I just do feel likeboth Schiaparelli and Luebbe and
JW Anderson are doing suchinteresting work, even though I
wouldn't I don't know if I wouldnecessarily buy what they have,
but Luebbe I would but I justthink they're doing very
on-trend work right now.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, I think I mean just in terms of like a business
mind.
I think Stella McCartney isamazing.
I think as a mentor she wouldbe incredible.
She's been in the business solong.
I think she'd be an incredibleboss.
I would pick her as a boss forme.
I think I would hire DanielRoseberry and fire Jonathan
(14:03):
Anderson.
It's kind of a coin toss, to behonest.
It's really hard, but they bothkind of bring the same things
to the table, which is justreally forward thinking,
unbelievable creativity.
Yeah, what a superpower to haveeither one of those at your
(14:23):
side as a colleague.
Agree, agree.
Who would you did you?
Who did you?
Who would you fire?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I was saying Stella McCartney, stella, yeah, who was
your boss?
Jonathan Anderson.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Man.
He has turned Loewe intosomething.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Exactly that business didn't exist 10 years ago.
It didn't exist in its ownbrand, and so that's why I think
it's really interesting,because he currently has his
pulse on something that peoplereally like.
And then I just think whatDaniel Roseberry builds with
Schiaparelli, despite whatNorthwest said in that infamous
video with Kim Kardashian Don'tknow if you saw it, but
Northwest was giving DanielRoseberry notes on Kim's outfit-
(15:04):
let's go into the other onethat I was I was interested in,
which was the manifesto which,by the way, was such a brilliant
name.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yes, we're obsessed with it.
I'm.
It's so clever and so right on.
So this is one that you builtat coachella and at Cannes for
two very different audiences.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yes, they're what we call cousins.
So it first started like we'vedone the concept manifesto at
Cannes for two years in a row.
And then, um, our VP ofconsumer saw it and she's like I
just want you to do that, butat Coachella, and but like, make
it right for Gen Z consumersgoing to a festival like a
concert music festival ratherthan a creativity festival.
(15:57):
And so that's what we did.
But we had to rename it justbecause the name is trademarked
in the US.
So we called it Manifestationand also, like we didn't want to
have it like a festival withina festival, it's really a stop
at the festival.
So that really worked well.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
How did the objectives differ?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
worked well.
How did the objectives differ?
We came up with Manifestivalbecause Gen Z is one of our
fastest growing audiences, whichis very unusual for what I like
to call a mature app I hope noone calls me mature, that sounds
kind of like a dig.
But essentially, gen Z thinksof Pinterest as a manifestation
app, and since we were, like youknow, especially around
advertising, there's an obsessobsession with youth culture,
and so we really wanted to bringthat kind of part of our story
(16:38):
to life.
And so that's where we're likeokay, let's bring creativity
back to a festival of creativity, because, you know, if you've
been to can, it becomes like asea of sameness.
Everyone's talking to you andyou're like why are you giving
me this boring talk?
I'd rather be creating, and soI think that was just like a big
piece of it.
And we also, like, took thisrisk of doing tattoos, free
(16:59):
tattoos on the beach, which Isaw that my cmo was like why
would we do tattoos?
But literally that's the thingthat people queue up at eight in
the morning for, and can noone's awake at that time.
People are usually stumblingback to their like apartments
then, and so we were just reallyonto something and um decided
to do something totallydifferent than what anyone else
(17:20):
had done, and now we'redefinitely seeing a lot of these
trends.
Like um, we've been the highestrated beach for about three
years in a row and uh, yeah, Ithink it's been.
It's been really great.
But our objective there wasreally about bringing our Gen Z
audiences to life and alsohelping support our sales team,
because that was a way that wecould literally bring Pinterest
(17:42):
to life, especially for a CMO inSwitzerland who may not use it,
so they could see the physicalmanifestation of what happens on
the Pinterest app.
And so that was our main goalfor Cam and then for Coachella.
The objectives were a littlebit different, but the execution
was similar, and so, for us,the leading insight there was
(18:06):
that people, like on Pinterest,are always planning for their
future, and so there's just aton of searches around festivals
and like what should I wear?
Hair and beauty, festival style, festival aesthetic.
And so for us, we were like youknow, similarly, how do we help
people manifest their festivalstyle?
They probably have all theiroutfits picked out, but how can
we help them like, just up theirstyle a little bit?
(18:29):
So we worked with um.
Uh, we had a few makeup artistsdoing like cool makeup looks
and then also just stylists thatput in bows and different
things that were inspired by thedifferent headliners.
So we had some like edgierthings that were inspired by
Doja Cat A lot of sweet like Ican't remember what it was
called, but basically like LanaDel Rey and then some of the
(18:51):
eclectic grandpa vibes for Tylerthe creator.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
How did that all come together?
I mean, that's seems like atotally different problem set.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yes, yeah, um, you know, to be honest, working with
any festival or like, whetherit's like an advertising
festival or music festivalthere's just always a lot of
constraints, um, because theproducers have to deal with so
many of activations and withCoachella, I do appreciate that
(19:20):
they're very conscious about theenvironment, so you can't give
away swag or do any of thosethings you typically could,
which is great.
We also do like to have a veryproactive effort in what I call
programming, and so that's fromcasting talent to what are the
creators we're working with andjust really making sure you have
the right people, becausesomeone could be good in the
digital world and then they'renot good with people.
(19:42):
We've learned that in the pastand it can be grueling, and so I
think we now have a really goodsense of that and just make
sure we set up our creators sothey have breaks and that
they're set up to succeed withus.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I'm hearing like, if I go back to your principles,
I'm hearing in both of thesethere's a lot of activity.
There's a lot of actually doingand getting involved in the
creative activities.
There's a lot of inclusivity,just in terms of the range of
things that you can do, therange of audiences that are
(20:16):
engaged, and then there's a tonof consideration, particularly
on manifestation versusmanifestable.
It just the real considerationon where you are, the audiences
that you're working with andreally making sure that you hit
the right notes so that you'remaking it a great experience for
(20:37):
the vendors who you're bringingin to join you and create at
the festival and for the peoplewho are coming through each of
the stations.
Is that?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Kind of right.
Yeah, that is right.
And you know, I did want tojust give one example for like
how we do inclusivity, which isa more non-traditional way, but
like essentially, at a lot ofthese like advertiser events,
only the senior, most people,get to go usually, and that's
who everyone caters to Right,everyone caters to the CMO.
They get the best experiencesthat's right, yeah, and so we
(21:13):
kind of flipped that on its headand we had all of these things
that were tailored for gen z,and so that's what we heard the
most about.
Was that, oh yeah, we never getto do these with any of the
other partners.
Like, these are like the thingsthat are behind closed doors
that we're not allowed toparticipate in.
So I think, like we got a lotof positive feedback from that,
that there was just a lot ofthings for people to do.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Before we started recording, we were talking about
how, when you go to thesefestivals, when you're you and I
, they're not fun.
You're working, that's right,and actually to have a moment of
fun and engagement offered byany of the brands that show up
at Cannes or Davos or Adweek orCES is actually really kind of a
(22:07):
stroke of genius.
Yeah, that you're playing tothe crowd that actually shows up
.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
That's right and it might be influenced because you
know, we're both veterans, likeI've been doing this for over 20
years and going to these things, so I know like what I'd want
out of my experience or likewhat are those?
Like little insights.
Like you know, at CES, which isin Las Vegas, one of the things
I noticed was that everyonelike brings their Vegas outfits
(22:34):
right and for women, that meanslike their animal print, some
more sequins and maybe liketheir cute leather skirt or
dress.
And we brought in this creator,karen Rose Gold, who like does
bedazzling for the stars, likeshe did Lizzo's flute.
She does work for Gaga, likeBeyonce, everyone.
And we just had this wholebedazzling station and you could
just come here and not talk toanyone and just concentrate and
(22:56):
just put crystals on things.
That's awesome and people justloved it.
And typically in CES peopledon't hang out.
They're running from meeting tomeeting to meeting, but people
just love that opportunity tomake like cool glasses, phone
cases, just anything.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I think that you should create a Pedialyte bar.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
A hydration station.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
At CES.
Yeah, that is what everybodyneeds.
The only thing that I'm lookingto do at CES is not come back
with the stomach flu.
The thing that I'm always mostterrified about with experiences
is doing something that'sinauthentic or unoriginal.
How do you keep pushingyourself forward without copying
(23:38):
yourself or others, and how doyou ensure that your experiences
are aligned with your brand,your partners and your audience?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
You know, this is where I feel like I have the
dream job, because our brand isall around, bringing inspiration
to people to create a life theylove.
That's our mission and our, ourwhole platform is based on
creativity and inspiration, andso I think that's part of what
makes it really unique, becausewe do find a lot of our
creativity from Pinterest.
Quite literally, we do someplanning there and our visual
(24:10):
inspiration, and I think theother thing is we, um, we just
have an amazing creative teamand I think we just all push
each other and you know, likesome of the funnest stuff is
just like laughing about thethings that didn't make it to
fruition.
Like a mental health gym wasone of the ideas or concepts
that we had, um, but I could seeus bringing that back for some
(24:33):
other reason, you know, forsomething else as appropriate,
and I think the other thing thatkind of underpins what we do is
we do use these.
Pinterest predicts trends thatare very proprietary to us and
we might activate some of thoseor bring those to life.
It might not be our overarchingthing, but we'll definitely
look there for food and drinktrends, as well as like any,
like decor, home and designtrends and things like that.
(24:56):
I think this is a year whereI'm going to try not to burn
like burnout or have the teamburnout, and so really just
saying no to more things andsaying yes to the bigger things,
but pushing ourselves about.
You know, what's trending andall these different areas, what
artists are really interestingand where do we go to get
inspiration.
You got to live and breathethat and also be inspired, and I
(25:17):
think that's what the teambrings to the work.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Outside of the platform.
Where do you go for inspiration?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I think it's like about going out as much as I can
, to be honest, and so walkingaround.
I definitely travel a ton.
I like traveling to differentcities or places and just seeing
what's out there, and I'm notGen Z myself, but I do like to
go observe where they are.
So I'm the granny in the cornerat the concert or like a cool
(25:44):
new restaurant or a skate parkor just like going to these
things just so I can see what'sout there and then also just
doing it from differentcountries, because I think
there's always inspiration fromAsia or Europe or just different
areas.
Also, art museums I think bothlike street art as well as like
the art in museums I find isreally interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
One of the things, actually the thing that I think
is most fun about experientialwork is being able to hire
artists yes, To do this work Forsure.
How do you find them?
How do you meet them?
How do you woo them into doingwork for a big company?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
You know, it really varies and there's some, there's
some like agencies that havelike a really great network of
creators.
So, like a few years ago weworked with Yinka Alori before
he blew up and was likeeverywhere doing all these
massive design projects.
He helped us design aplayground at Cannes.
That was just beautiful and I'mso grateful we got to work with
him, because now we definitelycouldn't afford him, and so we
(26:42):
collaborate with a few differentartists.
Sometimes it's more about wheredid we?
Like we might find them onPinterest or we might find them
on other platforms.
Like we worked with the LondonSneaker School to custom dip
marbleized Crocs this year.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Oh, I saw that.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, that was super fun, and so they were like a
really great team to work withas well.
And, like I said, we try tomake sure that we have as
diverse talent as possible sothat, like for people who come
to visit us or come to engagewith us, they can see themselves
there as well.
So I think we do put a lot ofthought into it and try to work
with as diverse a set ofcreators as we can.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I don't think I've ever asked you this question,
but how did you come into thiswork, like, did you come up
through this as a marketer orthrough events?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I would even start a little bit before then, because
I went to a liberal art school,had no idea what I wanted to do
coming out of it, because thechoices were being an investment
banker, management consultantor teacher, and I was like, okay
, I don't want to be any ofthose three things.
But what I did discover atcollege was a love of art, and
at first I thought I was goingto be a lawyer because I didn't
(27:50):
know what else to do.
So I was a poli sci major, butthen ended with an art history,
a double major, and so my senioryear.
Oh, there we go.
This is something else we havein common.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I was econ and art history.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Oh nice, I studied a lot about Mao's China, which is
all about propaganda, and soadvertising and marketing isn't
that far from propaganda, and sothat's how I kind of got into
it.
And I will say my first job inSan Francisco was with Gap and I
worked on their in-store promosand events, and so it was a bit
(28:24):
more on the event side, butthen I quickly, during the tech
boom, went into more generalmarketing.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Gap is where so many brilliant marketers came up
through there.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, and their latest work, their latest
campaign, looks so much like thework from the 90s, when I first
fell in love with the Gap.
Is this with Tori Sivan?
Yes, with all the dancing, andit was just amazing.
It reminds me of those days ofthe swing dancing and all of
that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Agreed, agreed.
So we worked together in thebefore times.
Before there we were allgrounded and before we were all
working from home and getting onzoom.
The pandemic itself wasobviously massively disruptive
to the events industry.
But now that we're gatheringagain, I'm curious to know
what's different, what's changedAgain?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I'm curious to know what's different, what's changed
.
One of the things that's reallystruck me is just like the
talent in the industry, becauseit was such like a crucible
moment for people, like theyeither could survive, somehow
keep their job and, you know, dowebinars or digital events, or
they got laid off or they had tofind new skills.
And so it's so fascinatingbecause I was just interviewing
(29:33):
for some roles on my team andone of the first questions I
always ask is oh, just walk methrough your experience and
everyone has that section inthat talk of oh well, during the
pandemic, and it was just sointeresting to hear what
different people did.
They either picked up differentcreative production skills,
totally went into a differentarea, you know, or they all
(29:56):
learn more about digitalproduction as well, and so I
think you know that will have anindelible impact on the people
of our industry, because I thinkthey all had to like learn new
things and stay creative,especially the successful ones.
I think, from an industryperspective, the thing I've
noticed was that, you know,obviously everyone paused IRL
(30:17):
events and experiences for awhile and then it wasn't back to
business as usual likeimmediately.
I think it's been kind of on aslow crawl, but I do think we're
almost back there.
But I think more businesses youknow they're thinking long term
.
No one ever predicted this.
So I think people are justbuilding in more safeguards.
But I do think consumeractivations are coming back.
(30:38):
I think certain conferences onthe B2B side are coming back,
but not all have, or they mayjust be in a different way,
because I just think, eventhough we're past the pandemic,
there are still waves of COVIDthat go around.
So people are more cautious andmore thoughtful than ever.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Have events and experiences taken on new
significance since the pandemic?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I definitely think so .
I think when.
Why is that?
You know, I think, even thoughfor some people it's definitely
in the rear view, I think for alot of other people it just made
us realize that life can bereally short and we only have a
certain amount of time here andto make the most of it.
And for me, like I've decidedto just travel more.
(31:24):
I turned 50 this year and Ialways just say this is my YOLO
year of just traveling as muchas possible.
Just say this is my YOLO yearof just traveling as much as
possible, and so, and justseeing more of the world that
I've always wanted to see, orgoing back to the places that
I've always wanted to go back to.
And so I think for a lot ofpeople that's and I don't know
if the like younger generationsthink of it the same way, but I
(31:45):
think for younger generations,to entice them to something, it
has to have high value, or ithas to be to be able them to
something.
It has to have high value, orit has to be to be able to do
something that they can't alone,or be with community.
So I think, in that sense,that's what I've noticed, and
then, depending on where you arein your kind of stage of life.
For me, I get really excited togo out and to connect and see
things.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, how do you see it manifesting in your work?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
You know, I think that's why I think we fight to
be so creative, or need to be socreative, because I think the
brands that phone it in you'rejust like oh, this is just like
a photo opportunity.
People get that and, like yousaid, it doesn't feel authentic
or there's not a lot of value topeople.
I think Gen Z is much savvier.
It's not as much about let metake a photo of me being
(32:32):
somewhere which I think was moreof a millennial thing, like
earlier.
It's not as much about let metake a photo of me being
somewhere which I think was moreof a millennial thing earlier.
It's more about I just want toexperience something authentic.
I want to see some value orsomething that I get out of it
personally, and so that's why Ido always think about that.
We always have to think aboutwho are we serving, how can we
be additive to their lives?
In a way that's on brand forPinterest.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
There's so much emphasis on cost efficiency in
the last three years.
What is the case that marketerscan make for investing in
experiences?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
For the B2B side of the house, we have a really
sophisticated measurement modelso we can definitely see like
how we influence revenue, aswell as like directly
attributable revenue to thedifferent B2B events that we do
In terms of consumer.
I think that is more like it'sgenerally like we're doing the
work around a campaign or abrand partnership and so it's
(33:26):
all about you know, how can webe more in culture, and I think
part of that has to be amulti-channel strategy.
It's not just about all onestrategy or the other.
Yes, a really great film or adwill cause you to tears, but a
really great experience justmakes you feel so excited about
a brand and you really developmore brand love and, ideally,
(33:48):
more usage of that brand brandlove and, ideally, more usage of
that brand.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I'm not asking you to reveal the model itself, but
how did you go about buildingthe ROI model?
Who are the partners that youwork with?
Who are the teams that youreached out to?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
At first we didn't have it.
When we were much smaller wedidn't have a full-on
measurement team.
I had to borrow resources frompeople.
But now we do have a dedicatedmarketing measurement team, so
she's involved with it as wellas our sales operations, and so
we always think about the goal.
We look year over year and howwe do and we keep building that
case, and then, fortunately, thenumber keeps getting higher and
higher.
And then part of what we alsolook at is um return on ad
(34:27):
spends.
We do look on the actual ROIand I think our goal is to have
it, I believe, be at least threeto four X, whatever we invest,
and fortunately, for some of ourlarger moments I can we blow
those out of the water, which isgreat.
But, um, yeah, it took a whileand so, um, but I feel like
doing that, especially for themore, for the bigger invest
(34:49):
investments like can versus likesmaller owned events.
It's really important that atleast on the end of the year, we
average out to that.
So far, it looks like that'show we're tracking.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
What should we have our eye on with Pinterest
experiences in 2025?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, actually there's one coming up that's
more of a film that's droppingon October 1.
Okay, and it's it's my birthday, by the way, oh it is.
So it's kind of like a birthdaypresent to you.
You can think of it.
Oh, there you go.
It's called Pinterest Presentsand this actually started during
the pandemic, when we're likehow do we do a global ads event?
(35:27):
And we're like webinar is adirty word but of course, like
the first few were kind ofwebinar ask, but now this
program has evolved into what'slike almost a 45 minute film.
That is quite entertaining andI just got in like a preview
clip of it and it is hilariousfor what it is and our creative
(35:48):
team did so much work on it.
So so highly, highly recommendpeople check that out.
Pintish presentscom, I thinkwill be the website, um, or
you'll see a lot of links onLinkedIn for it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Okay, well, I think that that's a great place to
wrap it up.
Judy, thank you for being on.
Where can people keep up withyou?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Uh, linkedin.
I usually am pretty activethere.
I think my actual URL is justmy name.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Judy.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Lee and feel free to connect, and I usually post a
lot of experiential contentthere and then I do also.
It's not as often, but onInstagram I do have my handle.
That's a mix of pictures of mydog nephew Zeus, as well as my
travels.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Thank, you so much for being on Unserious today.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Well, thank you for having me.
I had an unseriously good time.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
(37:07):
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
I think that you should createa Pedialyte bar.
This is Unserious.
Research varies, but it'sestimated that the average
person sees somewhere in theneighborhood of 10,000 ads per
day.
Most of them we don'tconsciously notice and some of
them take a few times to clickin.
(00:26):
But think about that a constantflood of messages and hooks,
all vying for a sliver of ourattention.
So what does it take to benoticed, to be memorable, to be
relevant?
Well, one way is to createmoments that aren't just seen
but are lived.
I'm JB Skelton.
Molly McMahon is off this week.
(00:49):
Nine years ago, at the end of asolo trip in Thailand, I got a
surprise message for one of myfavorite colleagues, judy Lee,
who was wrapping up her own tripto Southeast Asia.
We spent the day exploringBangkok the food, the malls, the
Jim Thompson house and in thatshared experience we made a hard
(01:09):
pivot from colleagues tofriends.
I think it's the perfectreflection of Judy's work,
pulling people out of theireveryday lives into
extraordinary places andsituations situations.
Today, judy leads global brandexperiences and programs at
Pinterest, where she createsmeaningful experiences for
(01:30):
clients, partners and the publicat industry events and
festivals.
Welcome to Unserious Judy.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Thank you for having me, JB.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
For me, what makes experiences memorable are the
emotions that they conjure andthe senses that they engage, and
that always sounds kind of likeI'm talking about vibes, which
kind of sounds silly.
But if we agree that you'regoing to like the experiences
that you're designing are goingfor vibes, how do you get the
(02:01):
vibes right every single time?
How do you, how do you make?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
vibes a science.
You know it's funny.
At one point we always like toanoint different people on our
team with different like titles,and I had anointed one woman as
a chief vibe officer, and sowe're always like make sure the
vibes are immaculate in terms ofwhat we're doing.
So I do totally get that.
I feel like a big piece of whatwe do is we really try to.
(02:28):
We have a few principles thatwe work off of at Pinterest.
I've been there for about sevenyears, so we've really developed
this over time and I think partof it is, and what people have
really come to know us for isthat they get to do something
really interesting.
We call it more doing, lessviewing.
So whether it's for anadvertiser audience or for a
(02:48):
consumer audience, we always tryto help people like do things
so that it feels really engagingand active.
And then I think the second bigprinciple of what we do is we
try to.
You know we call Pinterest likethe positive corner of the
internet and we really like tobe as inclusive as possible, and
so I think that's reflected ineverything that we do, from
(03:08):
casting to brand ambassadors, totalent and who can have access
to the spaces, and I thinkthat's something that people
really have come to know us for.
Similar to how they feel on theapp, we want them to feel
similarly with our experiencesin real life.
And then the last kind of thingI usually try to think through
is just really consider whereyou are the local environment,
(03:32):
the culture, essentially likethe worst thing we could do is
like have closed off, enclosedmeeting room spaces versus airy
things where you can see thelight and all of that.
So I think we try to do thateverywhere we go.
It's like consider where we are.
What would you want to be doingif you were engaging with us?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
All of these things have to hit brand objectives and
business objectives, yeah, solet's look at a couple of
projects that you've put outinto the world in the last year
that I really thought was cool.
The first one was PinterestPredicts, which was a retail
pop-up that you built in themeatpacking district last year,
(04:10):
which showcased trends for 2024.
Tell us more about thisexperience.
What was the objective for itand how did you put it together?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
To start with, if people don't know, pinterest
predicts is our like almosttrending report, and they've
been super successful in callingout trends.
So if you've seen, like bowseverywhere, bow stacking was a
big trend.
Eclectic grandma Naomi Osaka,exactly, exactly, that's right
With her new Nike and Ambushoutfit, which I'm obsessed with.
And this is also right beforeBeyonce's Renaissance tour was
(04:42):
going on and we called out hotmetals, which are like a lot of
silvers and gold, so thatdefinitely felt like it was on
trend as well.
So, essentially, part of ourobjective of this shop and this
is our first time we had done aconsumer activation was like how
can we bring a few trends tolife but also make them
shoppable?
Some Pinterest were all aboutproviding people with
(05:03):
inspiration.
People plan things there, theydream about their futures, but
then we want to help themmanifest them, which is also the
core to some of our otherthemes and names, and so with
our shop, we brought some of thetrends to life and they were
all shoppable via QR code.
So if you're really into bows,we had a ton of different bows
there that people could choosefrom and purchase online.
(05:25):
Bee jelly was also a trend,like the jellyfish trend, like
in terms of, like it,influencing makeup or hair and
all of that.
That was super fun.
We got to work with twodifferent brand partners.
So one of our trends was calledblue beauty, so it's a lot
about blue makeup.
And so we worked with Mac andpeople could get like different
blue makeup looks done there andalso get some free samples,
(05:46):
which were really great.
And then another one was kindof like this upcycling type of
vibe called Give a Scrap, and weworked with Levi's and then
they kind of worked oncustomizing different items
whether there are some shirts,hats, bandanas how did it all
come together?
Shirts, hats, bandanas how didit all come together?
(06:07):
Having that short ramp up timefrom basically the end of
September to the first week ofDecember is kind of insane and
it was definitely a bigproduction.
So our design team, ourcreative team, came up with the
look and feel, which was juststunning.
If you ever go topinterestpredictscom, like, the
visuals are just amazing.
And so we were able to kind ofuse that as like a inspiration
board for us, if you will, andum, and we partnered with one of
(06:30):
our agency partners, amplifyand so they helped us kind of
bring the whole whole thing tolife, everything from finding
the venue to um, working with uson talent and brand partners
just all of the stuff that makesone of those a success anybody
who's worked in events andthings that come to life in the
real world knows that there'salways a hitch.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
What made this one extra hard?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
You know, from the short ramp up time and then also
working with brand partners,because everyone's got a vision
for how it comes together andbecause it was the first time we
did it, there was just a lot ofproving out to do and so, you
know, some people can reallyvisualize something from a mood
board to what it could be, andthen other people need like
literal schematics.
So just kind of working with alot of different people to get
(07:15):
those approvals, and I think theother thing was also just
really trying to hone down whattrends to highlight, because I
think there are about 20 to 30.
And we could really onlyfeature about like six or seven.
And so just really thinkingthrough what made the most
immersive or visually, like youknow, tantalizing, um, things
like, as you were mentioning,the vibes that you would love to
(07:37):
experience and be a part of andthat aren't kind of like boring
or difficult to bring to life.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I'm sort of living millennial grandpa today.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I call myself a cleptic grandma.
That's like just my thing.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
No, that's you know.
I think that you're, you'resolidly there, but digging in on
that there's like.
Those are two universal things,like helping non-creative
people conceptualize.
Creative work is a constantchallenge when pitching
creativity.
How do you do that successfully?
(08:13):
How do you?
You, you have a lot of practicewith this.
How can, how can our audiencedo this better?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I would say it's sometimes like drawing things
out quite literally or having areally great designer who can
help like mock something up forpeople and, depending on who
we're working with, to getapprovals.
Sometimes we just write up aconcept doc.
They'd rather see words andthen they can visualize, and
then for other people they justwant visuals, no words.
So it's really kind ofunderstanding who your audience
(08:39):
is and what will help bring themalong in the journey.
I think you know the other.
The other thing that reallyhelps is trust, and so that gets
built over time and I think,luckily for me, my team
continues to deliver, deliverand deliver outstanding work.
So we have a lot of trust withour partners.
But anytime there's like a newexternal partner that we're
(09:00):
working with, you have torebuild that.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
So the other thing that you mentioned there was
like working with incrediblytight timelines.
How do you do that withoutburning out?
How do you work within thoseconfines?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
successfully.
I think there's like a certaintype of person that loves
experiences.
There's like a hard start and ahard finish, and then like a
little bit of like okay, now Ican take a breath.
And you know, I feel like Icouldn't like do software where
you're just constantly iteratingand there's like never an end
in sight.
Maybe there's a big launch, butlike there, it's like you're
just constantly iterating.
(09:36):
And I think that it's likethere's definitely a certain
personality that loves likeproducing events, and I see that
in the team that I've assembled.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I.
You know what I learned?
That in that you had a newchance every day, right, the
slate was clean every single dayand you had a new opportunity
to like, do it again, and thenyou had instant feedback.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's right.
You can see on people's facesif you did your job or didn't do
your job well.
And I can't share like how manytimes and I get notes from
executives or texts, especiallyduring Cannes they're like I'm
literally crying, like the spaceis amazing.
What you've created was likeoutstanding.
Or just seeing how packed it'sgotten each year, like grown
(10:25):
year over year.
So I think there is somethingwonderful about that immediate
feedback.
You know if it's like adisaster or not just by the look
of some people's faces or,depending on what it is, if
they're running towards you whendoors open.
So that's always reallyexciting.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What were some of the results for Pinterest for Dicks
?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
For Pinterest, for Dicks.
I think our focus there I wouldalways say with consumer events
it's a little harder to likeget all the hard KPIs than it is
for B2B events, but for that itwas around press coverage.
We also looked at scans of theQR codes, like how many people
were shopping, and then, becauseit was the first time we did it
, we just kind of measuredeverything just so we'd have a
(11:05):
baseline for what we'd thinkabout.
So how many people, like thethroughput of people that we got
through.
And then also social likemaking sure like we definitely
had outreach to influencers whohelped amplify what we did and
really extend the reach of theprogram.
And then I believe we also havea quarterly brand equity report
(11:25):
in terms of measuring likeoverall sentiment and how people
are feeling about the brandlet's have a little fun on this
show.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
We play a quick fire game with our guests called hire
fire boss.
We're going to have ahypothetical task and some
fictional candidates.
To accomplish that task, youhave to hire one, fire one, and
one of them will be your boss.
The category today is it'scalled Fashion, Look it Up, and
the task at hand is a majorinternational fashion magazine
is organizing an immersiveluxury fashion pop-up that will
(12:05):
travel through Asia this winterspotlighting ready-to-wear for
fall 25.
The team is some of the mostfamous fashion designers today.
Number one is Daniel Roseberryfrom Schiaparelli, formerly of
Tom Brown.
Number two is Jonathan Andersonof Loewe and Puzzle Bag fame
(12:26):
and JW Anderson fame.
And the third one is StellaMcCartney.
Of course, of the eponymousStella McCartney and the
creative director for Chloe.
You have to hireney.
Of course, of the eponymousStella McCartney and a creative
director for Chloe.
You have to hire one, fire one,and one of them will be your
boss.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Oh, that's really tough.
I feel like I would want tohire Jonathan Anderson.
I don't know who I'd want tofire.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I know this one's really hard.
They're all good.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
They're all really good, but I do think
Schiaparelli just does beautifulwork.
So I think I'd want oh wait,now let me think about this.
Or do I hire Schiaparelli?
Jonathan Anderson is my bossand I fire Stella McCartney.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I have a real hard time firing Stella McCartney.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I do too, but I feel like she has so much she has
like.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Her tailoring is so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
It is phenomenal, and at first I was like oh, do I
want her to be my boss?
But then I just do feel likeboth Schiaparelli and Luebbe and
JW Anderson are doing suchinteresting work, even though I
wouldn't I don't know if I wouldnecessarily buy what they have,
but Luebbe I would but I justthink they're doing very
on-trend work right now.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, I think I mean just in terms of like a business
mind.
I think Stella McCartney isamazing.
I think as a mentor she wouldbe incredible.
She's been in the business solong.
I think she'd be an incredibleboss.
I would pick her as a boss forme.
I think I would hire DanielRoseberry and fire Jonathan
(14:03):
Anderson.
It's kind of a coin toss, to behonest.
It's really hard, but they bothkind of bring the same things
to the table, which is justreally forward thinking,
unbelievable creativity.
Yeah, what a superpower to haveeither one of those at your
(14:23):
side as a colleague.
Agree, agree.
Who would you did you?
Who did you?
Who would you fire?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I was saying Stella McCartney, stella, yeah, who was
your boss?
Jonathan Anderson.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Man.
He has turned Loewe intosomething.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Exactly that business didn't exist 10 years ago.
It didn't exist in its ownbrand, and so that's why I think
it's really interesting,because he currently has his
pulse on something that peoplereally like.
And then I just think whatDaniel Roseberry builds with
Schiaparelli, despite whatNorthwest said in that infamous
video with Kim Kardashian Don'tknow if you saw it, but
Northwest was giving DanielRoseberry notes on Kim's outfit-
(15:04):
let's go into the other onethat I was I was interested in,
which was the manifesto which,by the way, was such a brilliant
name.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yes, we're obsessed with it.
I'm.
It's so clever and so right on.
So this is one that you builtat coachella and at Cannes for
two very different audiences.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yes, they're what we call cousins.
So it first started like we'vedone the concept manifesto at
Cannes for two years in a row.
And then, um, our VP ofconsumer saw it and she's like I
just want you to do that, butat Coachella, and but like, make
it right for Gen Z consumersgoing to a festival like a
concert music festival ratherthan a creativity festival.
(15:57):
And so that's what we did.
But we had to rename it justbecause the name is trademarked
in the US.
So we called it Manifestationand also, like we didn't want to
have it like a festival withina festival, it's really a stop
at the festival.
So that really worked well.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
How did the objectives differ?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
worked well.
How did the objectives differ?
We came up with Manifestivalbecause Gen Z is one of our
fastest growing audiences, whichis very unusual for what I like
to call a mature app I hope noone calls me mature, that sounds
kind of like a dig.
But essentially, gen Z thinksof Pinterest as a manifestation
app, and since we were, like youknow, especially around
advertising, there's an obsessobsession with youth culture,
and so we really wanted to bringthat kind of part of our story
(16:38):
to life.
And so that's where we're likeokay, let's bring creativity
back to a festival of creativity, because, you know, if you've
been to can, it becomes like asea of sameness.
Everyone's talking to you andyou're like why are you giving
me this boring talk?
I'd rather be creating, and soI think that was just like a big
piece of it.
And we also, like, took thisrisk of doing tattoos, free
(16:59):
tattoos on the beach, which Isaw that my cmo was like why
would we do tattoos?
But literally that's the thingthat people queue up at eight in
the morning for, and can noone's awake at that time.
People are usually stumblingback to their like apartments
then, and so we were just reallyonto something and um decided
to do something totallydifferent than what anyone else
(17:20):
had done, and now we'redefinitely seeing a lot of these
trends.
Like um, we've been the highestrated beach for about three
years in a row and uh, yeah, Ithink it's been.
It's been really great.
But our objective there wasreally about bringing our Gen Z
audiences to life and alsohelping support our sales team,
because that was a way that wecould literally bring Pinterest
(17:42):
to life, especially for a CMO inSwitzerland who may not use it,
so they could see the physicalmanifestation of what happens on
the Pinterest app.
And so that was our main goalfor Cam and then for Coachella.
The objectives were a littlebit different, but the execution
was similar, and so, for us,the leading insight there was
(18:06):
that people, like on Pinterest,are always planning for their
future, and so there's just aton of searches around festivals
and like what should I wear?
Hair and beauty, festival style, festival aesthetic.
And so for us, we were like youknow, similarly, how do we help
people manifest their festivalstyle?
They probably have all theiroutfits picked out, but how can
we help them like, just up theirstyle a little bit?
(18:29):
So we worked with um.
Uh, we had a few makeup artistsdoing like cool makeup looks
and then also just stylists thatput in bows and different
things that were inspired by thedifferent headliners.
So we had some like edgierthings that were inspired by
Doja Cat A lot of sweet like Ican't remember what it was
called, but basically like LanaDel Rey and then some of the
(18:51):
eclectic grandpa vibes for Tylerthe creator.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
How did that all come together?
I mean, that's seems like atotally different problem set.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yes, yeah, um, you know, to be honest, working with
any festival or like, whetherit's like an advertising
festival or music festivalthere's just always a lot of
constraints, um, because theproducers have to deal with so
many of activations and withCoachella, I do appreciate that
(19:20):
they're very conscious about theenvironment, so you can't give
away swag or do any of thosethings you typically could,
which is great.
We also do like to have a veryproactive effort in what I call
programming, and so that's fromcasting talent to what are the
creators we're working with andjust really making sure you have
the right people, becausesomeone could be good in the
digital world and then they'renot good with people.
(19:42):
We've learned that in the pastand it can be grueling, and so I
think we now have a really goodsense of that and just make
sure we set up our creators sothey have breaks and that
they're set up to succeed withus.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
I'm hearing like, if I go back to your principles,
I'm hearing in both of thesethere's a lot of activity.
There's a lot of actually doingand getting involved in the
creative activities.
There's a lot of inclusivity,just in terms of the range of
things that you can do, therange of audiences that are
(20:16):
engaged, and then there's a tonof consideration, particularly
on manifestation versusmanifestable.
It just the real considerationon where you are, the audiences
that you're working with andreally making sure that you hit
the right notes so that you'remaking it a great experience for
(20:37):
the vendors who you're bringingin to join you and create at
the festival and for the peoplewho are coming through each of
the stations.
Is that?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Kind of right.
Yeah, that is right.
And you know, I did want tojust give one example for like
how we do inclusivity, which isa more non-traditional way, but
like essentially, at a lot ofthese like advertiser events,
only the senior, most people,get to go usually, and that's
who everyone caters to Right,everyone caters to the CMO.
They get the best experiencesthat's right, yeah, and so we
(21:13):
kind of flipped that on its headand we had all of these things
that were tailored for gen z,and so that's what we heard the
most about.
Was that, oh yeah, we never getto do these with any of the
other partners.
Like, these are like the thingsthat are behind closed doors
that we're not allowed toparticipate in.
So I think, like we got a lotof positive feedback from that,
that there was just a lot ofthings for people to do.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Before we started recording, we were talking about
how, when you go to thesefestivals, when you're you and I
, they're not fun.
You're working, that's right,and actually to have a moment of
fun and engagement offered byany of the brands that show up
at Cannes or Davos or Adweek orCES is actually really kind of a
(22:07):
stroke of genius.
Yeah, that you're playing tothe crowd that actually shows up
.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
That's right and it might be influenced because you
know, we're both veterans, likeI've been doing this for over 20
years and going to these things, so I know like what I'd want
out of my experience or likewhat are those?
Like little insights.
Like you know, at CES, which isin Las Vegas, one of the things
I noticed was that everyonelike brings their Vegas outfits
(22:34):
right and for women, that meanslike their animal print, some
more sequins and maybe liketheir cute leather skirt or
dress.
And we brought in this creator,karen Rose Gold, who like does
bedazzling for the stars, likeshe did Lizzo's flute.
She does work for Gaga, likeBeyonce, everyone.
And we just had this wholebedazzling station and you could
just come here and not talk toanyone and just concentrate and
(22:56):
just put crystals on things.
That's awesome and people justloved it.
And typically in CES peopledon't hang out.
They're running from meeting tomeeting to meeting, but people
just love that opportunity tomake like cool glasses, phone
cases, just anything.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I think that you should create a Pedialyte bar.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
A hydration station.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
At CES.
Yeah, that is what everybodyneeds.
The only thing that I'm lookingto do at CES is not come back
with the stomach flu.
The thing that I'm always mostterrified about with experiences
is doing something that'sinauthentic or unoriginal.
How do you keep pushingyourself forward without copying
(23:38):
yourself or others, and how doyou ensure that your experiences
are aligned with your brand,your partners and your audience?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
You know, this is where I feel like I have the
dream job, because our brand isall around, bringing inspiration
to people to create a life theylove.
That's our mission and our, ourwhole platform is based on
creativity and inspiration, andso I think that's part of what
makes it really unique, becausewe do find a lot of our
creativity from Pinterest.
Quite literally, we do someplanning there and our visual
(24:10):
inspiration, and I think theother thing is we, um, we just
have an amazing creative teamand I think we just all push
each other and you know, likesome of the funnest stuff is
just like laughing about thethings that didn't make it to
fruition.
Like a mental health gym wasone of the ideas or concepts
that we had, um, but I could seeus bringing that back for some
(24:33):
other reason, you know, forsomething else as appropriate,
and I think the other thing thatkind of underpins what we do is
we do use these.
Pinterest predicts trends thatare very proprietary to us and
we might activate some of thoseor bring those to life.
It might not be our overarchingthing, but we'll definitely
look there for food and drinktrends, as well as like any,
like decor, home and designtrends and things like that.
(24:56):
I think this is a year whereI'm going to try not to burn
like burnout or have the teamburnout, and so really just
saying no to more things andsaying yes to the bigger things,
but pushing ourselves about.
You know, what's trending andall these different areas, what
artists are really interestingand where do we go to get
inspiration.
You got to live and breathethat and also be inspired, and I
(25:17):
think that's what the teambrings to the work.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Outside of the platform.
Where do you go for inspiration?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I think it's like about going out as much as I can
, to be honest, and so walkingaround.
I definitely travel a ton.
I like traveling to differentcities or places and just seeing
what's out there, and I'm notGen Z myself, but I do like to
go observe where they are.
So I'm the granny in the cornerat the concert or like a cool
(25:44):
new restaurant or a skate parkor just like going to these
things just so I can see what'sout there and then also just
doing it from differentcountries, because I think
there's always inspiration fromAsia or Europe or just different
areas.
Also, art museums I think bothlike street art as well as like
the art in museums I find isreally interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
One of the things, actually the thing that I think
is most fun about experientialwork is being able to hire
artists yes, To do this work Forsure.
How do you find them?
How do you meet them?
How do you woo them into doingwork for a big company?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
You know, it really varies and there's some, there's
some like agencies that havelike a really great network of
creators.
So, like a few years ago weworked with Yinka Alori before
he blew up and was likeeverywhere doing all these
massive design projects.
He helped us design aplayground at Cannes.
That was just beautiful and I'mso grateful we got to work with
him, because now we definitelycouldn't afford him, and so we
(26:42):
collaborate with a few differentartists.
Sometimes it's more about wheredid we?
Like we might find them onPinterest or we might find them
on other platforms.
Like we worked with the LondonSneaker School to custom dip
marbleized Crocs this year.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Oh, I saw that.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, that was super fun, and so they were like a
really great team to work withas well.
And, like I said, we try tomake sure that we have as
diverse talent as possible sothat, like for people who come
to visit us or come to engagewith us, they can see themselves
there as well.
So I think we do put a lot ofthought into it and try to work
with as diverse a set ofcreators as we can.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I don't think I've ever asked you this question,
but how did you come into thiswork, like, did you come up
through this as a marketer orthrough events?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I would even start a little bit before then, because
I went to a liberal art school,had no idea what I wanted to do
coming out of it, because thechoices were being an investment
banker, management consultantor teacher, and I was like, okay
, I don't want to be any ofthose three things.
But what I did discover atcollege was a love of art, and
at first I thought I was goingto be a lawyer because I didn't
(27:50):
know what else to do.
So I was a poli sci major, butthen ended with an art history,
a double major, and so my senioryear.
Oh, there we go.
This is something else we havein common.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I was econ and art history.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Oh nice, I studied a lot about Mao's China, which is
all about propaganda, and soadvertising and marketing isn't
that far from propaganda, and sothat's how I kind of got into
it.
And I will say my first job inSan Francisco was with Gap and I
worked on their in-store promosand events, and so it was a bit
(28:24):
more on the event side, butthen I quickly, during the tech
boom, went into more generalmarketing.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Gap is where so many brilliant marketers came up
through there.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, and their latest work, their latest
campaign, looks so much like thework from the 90s, when I first
fell in love with the Gap.
Is this with Tori Sivan?
Yes, with all the dancing, andit was just amazing.
It reminds me of those days ofthe swing dancing and all of
that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Agreed, agreed.
So we worked together in thebefore times.
Before there we were allgrounded and before we were all
working from home and getting onzoom.
The pandemic itself wasobviously massively disruptive
to the events industry.
But now that we're gatheringagain, I'm curious to know
what's different, what's changedAgain?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I'm curious to know what's different, what's changed
.
One of the things that's reallystruck me is just like the
talent in the industry, becauseit was such like a crucible
moment for people, like theyeither could survive, somehow
keep their job and, you know, dowebinars or digital events, or
they got laid off or they had tofind new skills.
And so it's so fascinatingbecause I was just interviewing
(29:33):
for some roles on my team andone of the first questions I
always ask is oh, just walk methrough your experience and
everyone has that section inthat talk of oh well, during the
pandemic, and it was just sointeresting to hear what
different people did.
They either picked up differentcreative production skills,
totally went into a differentarea, you know, or they all
(29:56):
learn more about digitalproduction as well, and so I
think you know that will have anindelible impact on the people
of our industry, because I thinkthey all had to like learn new
things and stay creative,especially the successful ones.
I think, from an industryperspective, the thing I've
noticed was that, you know,obviously everyone paused IRL
(30:17):
events and experiences for awhile and then it wasn't back to
business as usual likeimmediately.
I think it's been kind of on aslow crawl, but I do think we're
almost back there.
But I think more businesses youknow they're thinking long term
.
No one ever predicted this.
So I think people are justbuilding in more safeguards.
But I do think consumeractivations are coming back.
(30:38):
I think certain conferences onthe B2B side are coming back,
but not all have, or they mayjust be in a different way,
because I just think, eventhough we're past the pandemic,
there are still waves of COVIDthat go around.
So people are more cautious andmore thoughtful than ever.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Have events and experiences taken on new
significance since the pandemic?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I definitely think so .
I think when.
Why is that?
You know, I think, even thoughfor some people it's definitely
in the rear view, I think for alot of other people it just made
us realize that life can bereally short and we only have a
certain amount of time here andto make the most of it.
And for me, like I've decidedto just travel more.
(31:24):
I turned 50 this year and Ialways just say this is my YOLO
year of just traveling as muchas possible.
Just say this is my YOLO yearof just traveling as much as
possible, and so, and justseeing more of the world that
I've always wanted to see, orgoing back to the places that
I've always wanted to go back to.
And so I think for a lot ofpeople that's and I don't know
if the like younger generationsthink of it the same way, but I
(31:45):
think for younger generations,to entice them to something, it
has to have high value, or ithas to be to be able them to
something.
It has to have high value, orit has to be to be able to do
something that they can't alone,or be with community.
So I think, in that sense,that's what I've noticed, and
then, depending on where you arein your kind of stage of life.
For me, I get really excited togo out and to connect and see
things.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, how do you see it manifesting in your work?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
You know, I think that's why I think we fight to
be so creative, or need to be socreative, because I think the
brands that phone it in you'rejust like oh, this is just like
a photo opportunity.
People get that and, like yousaid, it doesn't feel authentic
or there's not a lot of value topeople.
I think Gen Z is much savvier.
It's not as much about let metake a photo of me being
(32:32):
somewhere which I think was moreof a millennial thing, like
earlier.
It's not as much about let metake a photo of me being
somewhere which I think was moreof a millennial thing earlier.
It's more about I just want toexperience something authentic.
I want to see some value orsomething that I get out of it
personally, and so that's why Ido always think about that.
We always have to think aboutwho are we serving, how can we
be additive to their lives?
In a way that's on brand forPinterest.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
There's so much emphasis on cost efficiency in
the last three years.
What is the case that marketerscan make for investing in
experiences?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
For the B2B side of the house, we have a really
sophisticated measurement modelso we can definitely see like
how we influence revenue, aswell as like directly
attributable revenue to thedifferent B2B events that we do
In terms of consumer.
I think that is more like it'sgenerally like we're doing the
work around a campaign or abrand partnership and so it's
(33:26):
all about you know, how can webe more in culture, and I think
part of that has to be amulti-channel strategy.
It's not just about all onestrategy or the other.
Yes, a really great film or adwill cause you to tears, but a
really great experience justmakes you feel so excited about
a brand and you really developmore brand love and, ideally,
(33:48):
more usage of that brand brandlove and, ideally, more usage of
that brand.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I'm not asking you to reveal the model itself, but
how did you go about buildingthe ROI model?
Who are the partners that youwork with?
Who are the teams that youreached out to?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
At first we didn't have it.
When we were much smaller wedidn't have a full-on
measurement team.
I had to borrow resources frompeople.
But now we do have a dedicatedmarketing measurement team, so
she's involved with it as wellas our sales operations, and so
we always think about the goal.
We look year over year and howwe do and we keep building that
case, and then, fortunately, thenumber keeps getting higher and
higher.
And then part of what we alsolook at is um return on ad
(34:27):
spends.
We do look on the actual ROIand I think our goal is to have
it, I believe, be at least threeto four X, whatever we invest,
and fortunately, for some of ourlarger moments I can we blow
those out of the water, which isgreat.
But, um, yeah, it took a whileand so, um, but I feel like
doing that, especially for themore, for the bigger invest
(34:49):
investments like can versus likesmaller owned events.
It's really important that atleast on the end of the year, we
average out to that.
So far, it looks like that'show we're tracking.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
What should we have our eye on with Pinterest
experiences in 2025?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, actually there's one coming up that's
more of a film that's droppingon October 1.
Okay, and it's it's my birthday, by the way, oh it is.
So it's kind of like a birthdaypresent to you.
You can think of it.
Oh, there you go.
It's called Pinterest Presentsand this actually started during
the pandemic, when we're likehow do we do a global ads event?
(35:27):
And we're like webinar is adirty word but of course, like
the first few were kind ofwebinar ask, but now this
program has evolved into what'slike almost a 45 minute film.
That is quite entertaining andI just got in like a preview
clip of it and it is hilariousfor what it is and our creative
(35:48):
team did so much work on it.
So so highly, highly recommendpeople check that out.
Pintish presentscom, I thinkwill be the website, um, or
you'll see a lot of links onLinkedIn for it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Okay, well, I think that that's a great place to
wrap it up.
Judy, thank you for being on.
Where can people keep up withyou?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Uh, linkedin.
I usually am pretty activethere.
I think my actual URL is justmy name.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Judy.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Lee and feel free to connect, and I usually post a
lot of experiential contentthere and then I do also.
It's not as often, but onInstagram I do have my handle.
That's a mix of pictures of mydog nephew Zeus, as well as my
travels.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Thank, you so much for being on Unserious today.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Well, thank you for having me.
I had an unseriously good time.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
(37:07):
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
I think that you should createa Pedialyte bar.
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