October 31, 2024 • 33 mins
Everyone is trying to influence something or someone to get the outcomes they want, even when we’re not actively thinking about it. As humans we’re hardwired to persuade - at work, in relationships, negotiating dinner. Influence shapes the way we move through the world. But what is it exactly? In this episode, J.B. and Molly are joined by Bess Kennedy, former corporate litigator and the Founding Executive Director of the Aspire Public Schools Foundation to explore the elements of persuasion.
"What do people want out of this work? And it can't just be my vision, it can't just be what I want. I don't want to be the tail that wags the dog." - Bess Kennedy
- Connect with Bess on LinkedIn or Instagram @bknyca.
- Apply for the Aspire Public School Board
- See the letter from Bess' parent committee on Instagram!
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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J.B> (00:05):
This is Unserious.
Everyone is trying to influencesomething or someone to get the
outcomes they want, even whenwe're not actively thinking
about it.
As humans, we're hardwired topersuade At work, in
(00:29):
relationships, even negotiatingdinner.
Influence shapes the way wemove through the world.
But what is it exactly?
Is it about the strength of anargument, or maybe something
deeper or softer?
I'm Jamie Skelton, joined byMolly McMahon.
Molly (00:47):
Hi everyone.
J.B> (00:48):
Our guest is Bess Kennedy, former corporate litigator and
founding executive director ofthe Aspire Public Schools
Foundation, where she jugglesthe needs of students, parents
and educators across California.
Bess has spent years masteringthe art of persuasion, whether
it's in the courtroom, theboardroom or the toughest room
(01:10):
of all, a classroom of fourthgraders.
Welcome to Unserious Bess.
Bess (01:19):
Thank you, Jamie and Molly .
It's a delight to be here withyou.
J.B> (01:23):
You studied philosophy, you went to law school and you
spent years working as anattorney, and I presume you
learned a lot about how tostructure and organize arguments
.
Is that all there is toinfluencing?
Is it just the superiorargument?
Bess (01:39):
I mean I would like to say , yeah, it's that simple, but we
all know it is not.
I was thinking, when you guysbroached this with me and shared
with me the topic, I was like Idon't think of myself as
somebody who holds power,persuasion over anybody, not
even my own children, listen tome.
But then I started likethinking a little bit more about
it and I was like, oh, I guessover the course of my life I
(02:02):
have had lots of instances whereI have used influence and the
powers of persuasion to makethings happen, and the first
example that came to mind when Ithought about it was when I was
a kid, my brothers and I reallywanted to get our own landline.
I mean, this is the olden days,guys, right.
And my parents, my father, whois a college professor, my
(02:22):
mother, who is a social worker,both very influential people in
their own respective spheressaid to us if you want a
landline, you need to write aproposal and you need to submit
the proposal and we willevaluate it.
I think I was probably 11 yearsold, maybe my brothers were 12
and 9.
Being the middle child and theonly girl it, it of course fell
(02:44):
on me to draft this proposal toconvince my parents that we
should get a landline.
And to do that I knew I had tothink about it couldn't just be
we want this.
Yeah, it was like what is in itfor them?
How will this benefit them?
How do I enlist them in thisoutcome that I want?
So it's a positive foreverybody.
And I still have that proposal.
(03:05):
It's written on a yellow legalpad and we submitted it to my
parents and they returned it tous several days later after, I'm
sure, deep consideration and itwas approved.
It was approved.
So we got our own Kennedy kidslandline that then we proceeded
to like fight over who got touse the phone at what time of
the day.
(03:26):
But that, to me, was the firstmoment that came to mind when
you mentioned this topic of like.
How do we think aboutorganizing around a change we
want to affect?
How do we enlist stakeholdersin the process so that we get
the outcome that we want, andhow do we make those
stakeholders feel invested inthat outcome in the same ways
that we feel the outcome that wewant, and how do we make those
stakeholders feel invested inthat outcome in the same ways
(03:46):
that we feel invested in it?
So you know, over the course ofmy personal and professional
life, I've honed those skills, Iwould say, in a number of
different arenas.
So, obviously, being anattorney and being a litigator
in particular, you have to thinkabout what's the outcome you
want and how do you influence,whether it's your client or a
(04:07):
judge.
And what I found a lot of timesis you start with you know
what's the desired outcome, whatis the thing that we're working
towards here and can you findalignment there?
And then you start workingtowards like and what's the
process to get us there, whosevoice do we need to include?
And what I found as an attorneydoing this work was really
(04:27):
talking with clients about theirdesired outcome helped us
ground the work to get us there.
So oftentimes, if the desiredoutcome was I just want this
person to apologize.
That's a very differentapproach than litigating
something for, you know, months,if not years, in a courtroom in
front of a judge.
So instead it's like how do weengage with the other party,
(04:51):
with opposing counsel, to sayreally what our client wants?
We can save ourselves a lot oftime, we can save our clients a
lot of money If we can findresolution here that works for
everybody, that doesn't involve,you know, going in front of a
judge in a courtroom.
That doesn't involve, you know,going in front of a judge in a
courtroom.
Obviously, jv you mentioned, youknow, I taught fourth grade and
(05:12):
, yes, working with fourthgraders, as any teacher will
tell you, any grade.
Really it's about how do youbuild a classroom community
where you have shared outcomes?
How are you influencing peopleto make the quote, unquote right
choices every day when theywalk through the doors of your
classroom?
You know, for me it was reallyabout as a brand new teacher.
I mean, I taught in anemergency credential.
I didn't have training as ateacher until I was already in
front of the classroom.
It was really about what's thekind of classroom we want to
(05:34):
have here.
What do we want to feel when wewalk through the doors every
day?
What kind of community do wewant to build?
And really helping nine and 10year olds feel like they had a
part in building that community.
You know they were part of thecommunity and so what they
wanted to be a part of was whatthey had to be part of building,
and I love that.
I love that part of being ateacher.
You know where half my kids areback in school.
(05:55):
Half of them will be back inschool by the end of this week
and I know the first few daysand weeks of the school year are
all about.
What's the classroom communitythat you're building, whether
that's my senior year in highschool or my fifth grader, who
will start on Thursday.
And that, to me, is also aboutinfluence.
Like how are you, as a teacherand educator, influencing the 26
, 30 kids who walk through yourdoor in the morning to be a part
(06:18):
of that, to feel like they'repart of that community?
Molly (06:20):
So I'm curious when you think about, like, amazing
proposals, when you think aboutoutcomes in a proposal, how do
you like, do you think aboutoutcomes that are emotional?
Do you think about outcomesthat are social?
Do you think about outcomesthat are financial?
How do you sort of pinpointwhat those, what that outcome is
and how it matches up with themotivations of the folks you're
(06:42):
trying to persuade?
Bess (06:43):
In my current role I mean part of the work I oversee at
Aspire is all of our advocacywork.
That could be something assimple as like how are we
engaging with local school boardofficials to what are issues at
the statewide legislative levelthat, where we want to impact,
have an impact?
That, essentially, to simplifywithheld funds from schools when
(07:08):
kids were absent for quarantine, for mandatory COVID
quarantining.
Yeah, this was literallyhundreds of millions of dollars
that schools were losing out on.
Now Aspire Public Schools is acharter school management
organization.
So our schools are publicschools but they're charter
schools and we were not part ofwhat they called hold harmless.
So whereas a traditionaldistrict school would still get
(07:30):
this funding from the state,even if kids are marked absent,
charter schools were did nothave that same benefit.
So anytime one of our studentswas absent for a mandatory
quarantine which you mightremember at the time was like 10
days yeah, the state withheldmoney from us.
This had a devastatingfinancial impact on our schools
at a time when we really neededthose resources to make sure our
(07:50):
schools were safe.
So we had to look at this likehow are we going to affect
change at the statewide level toget the same protection as
traditional public schools.
Who are the stakeholders?
We need to influence, obviouslyat the legislative level,
somebody at the governor'soffice, but also our families
and our school principals.
Why would this matter to them?
So how do we go about and sayto our families like you know,
(08:15):
molly, you were asking like afiscal thing for us as an
organization, the set of fiscalimplication for our families.
We wanted them to feel like itwas okay to have your kids stay
home if they had COVID or had anexposure, and be quarantined
and not worry that your schoolwas going to somehow lose out on
resources to support your kidwhen they return to the
classroom.
We also said who else can joinus?
(08:36):
What other partners might wefind in this movement?
So we went out to other charterschools, but also to district
schools, and said can we all getbehind this ask of our governor
and the state legislator to saythis is about kids, you care
about kids, you're in education,you're a teacher or you're a
district administrator, you're aparent.
This is an issue that we canall get behind so that we can
(08:58):
best support our kids.
So for me in that moment it wasreally about what's going to be
the motivator for each one ofthose different stakeholder
groups, whether you're a parentor an assembly member, or even
the governor, and ultimately wewere successful.
for Aspire, that meant recouping$120 million that the state had
withheld because of thesemandatory quarantines.
Molly (09:19):
And they're building trust with this school and that
relationship with the school.
Bess (09:23):
Like they're being cared for in that way, totally.
Molly (09:24):
Yeah, they're being cared for in that way, totally.
Bess (09:27):
Yeah.
J.B> (09:32):
On the show we play a little quickfire game with our
guest called Hire Fire Boss.
We're going to have ahypothetical task and some
fictional candidates toaccomplish that task.
You have to hire one, fire one,and one of them is going to be
your boss.
The task at hand is Aspire islaunching a new scaled learning
(09:55):
program across its schoolsfocused on sustainability,
justice and the arts, and yourteam is made up of famous middle
children.
Because we are middle childrenand I think that the middle
child is the most influentialchild.
Middle child number one MileyCyrus, who is the fourth of
(10:17):
sixth.
Middle child number two isMadonna, the third of eight, and
middle child number three isMark Zuckerberg.
Middle child number three isMark Zuckerberg, the second of
four.
Molly (10:29):
That is a top-notch team for you, bess, I know so.
Bess (10:32):
I hire one, fire one, and one of them is my boss.
You have to work for one ofthem.
I mean, I'm sort of approachingthis as like do I make the
selfish choice, or do I make?
J.B> (10:42):
And it's an Aspire.
Well, it's an Aspire projecttoo.
Bess (10:47):
Well, I don't know that any of those folks would fly at
Aspire, but let's go ahead.
I'm going to say, like I wantMiley Cyrus.
Wait, I hire Miley Cyrus, isgoing to be my boss.
And then I'm going to hire MarkZuckerberg.
He's going to report to me.
Yeah, and I do love Madonna.
First concert of my life,seattle Kingdom, madonna Ooh
(11:09):
what.
J.B> (11:12):
Your first concert was Madonna.
Bess (11:12):
I don't count Joan Baez at Frost because Madonna's way
cooler, but I feel like I'd haveto fire Madonna.
Sorry, I just don't know thatthe vibe would work for this
context.
There you go.
J.B> (11:24):
A little too many alphas in the room.
Molly (11:29):
What's the rationale for miley as as the boss, I?
Bess (11:31):
feel like she's outside the box thinker, like she's not
afraid to make some bold choices, but she also is like resonant
with people.
You know she's not like thepeople she's pissing off or
people I would be comfortablepissing off, whereas I feel like
mark zuckerberg is like there'sa lot of hatred but I think he
could probably get things done.
That's why I want him to be mygrunt person, like I want him to
(11:52):
do the work at my direction whyfire madonna?
she's a little much, you know, Idon't.
I feel like she wouldn't listento anybody.
Okay, I feel like she's her owncreature, like she's gonna do
her own bold, big thing, whichis great if you're on your own,
but if you're part of a team andyou're working in schools, like
maybe you're not listening asmuch to learn, you're just kind
(12:14):
of doing.
Molly (12:15):
I think Miley would be a delight to work with.
I feel like we would be likeworking out in our high heels,
running on the treadmilltogether, you know, getting
ready for meetings she's a deity, I think that's one of the
things that she does to getready for concerts and shows,
and she's got that deep voice.
You'd constantly be like samevoice same voice, I know same
voice, it just reverberatesthrough your body and you'd be
like, oh, I feel so good everytime you speak.
J.B> (12:37):
I would totally want to share, like be like a cube buddy
with Miley.
Cyrus so we're both queer.
I think it's safe to say thatfor many queer people that
becoming an astute read ofpeople and a nimble code
(12:59):
switcher, it's something thatbecomes second nature and in
some level it's a survivaltactic.
But I also think it really is auseful skill and influence for
you.
What is what is your queernesstaught you about persuasion?
Bess (13:18):
When I was an attorney I had a client who was an elderly
gentleman who had been verysuccessful in his business
career.
He was an investor and I feltlike I was a younger woman at
the time and I felt like Ireally need to show up as a real
professional.
I know what I'm doing, you knowI didn't want to have that
(13:39):
imposter feeling, but you know,this guy had clearly made it in
his career and he was in hislate 70s and I was one of the
attorneys on the team workingwith him, and so I felt like I
had to show up in a very certainway to sort of gain his trust
and respect.
Throughout the course ofrepresenting him I met his
daughter, who was probably atthe time in her 50s.
She, in the course ofconversation, came out to me and
(14:03):
then I was like, oh, now I havea different way of showing up
to gain her trust, and it alsobecame clear to me that she was
an influencer on her father andthe decisions that he was going
to be making.
So I felt like I had two waysin with this particular client,
like one was through hisdaughter, who identified as
queer, as did I, and sort ofsharing that side of myself with
(14:25):
her, something I had kept fromher father because I didn't know
, you know, how he as an olderwhite man would react to that,
so had shown up reallydifferently for him versus with
his daughter, but over thecourse of representing him,
realizing like actually boththose parts of my identity were
going to be really valuable inbeing a trusted resource for
(14:46):
them.
Molly (14:47):
Yeah, that's really cool.
I mean I even like hearing that.
That makes me think, like in,like one of the art, I think art
of persuasion.
There's trust is a key part toit.
Like you're not going to dosome, you're not going to do
something, unless there's anelement of trust or care or
accountability within thatrelationship.
(15:09):
And I'm curious like how do you, how do you, go about building
trust quickly?
Bess (15:14):
So I think it depends also on the audience, the
stakeholder group.
So for our families, it's aboutshowing up, it's about being in
schools, it's about being atcommunity meetings, it's about
listening, it's aboutrecognizing the gifts that they
are bringing to this work andrecognizing them as partners in
this work.
So I never want anybody to feellike I am showing up to fix
(15:35):
something.
I am showing up to learn and tounlock place of humility and a
place of learning.
And often that is literallyshowing up in schools and in
classrooms and communityorganizing.
And then I look at, you know,for example, our, our foundation
(15:55):
board.
So these are people who arevolunteering their time,
expertise and donating theirresources to support the work
that we're doing at Aspire.
That's really different, right,that is building trust in a way
of like I have expertise inthis, yeah, I'm bringing you
into this work.
I need you to trust that whenyou're making an investment,
(16:15):
particularly of your financialresources, that those will be
put to good use.
And so that's about you know,having conversations to me,
really candid conversations.
I am never trying to do some dogand pony show and pull the wool
over people's eyes.
I feel much more comfortablebeing really candid, like here
are the bright spots, here aresome of the challenges, here are
(16:35):
the ways that you can impactthe work that we do.
Here's how your support canhelp us move the needle.
So, again, like aligning on theoutcome that we want, like we,
I believe we are all better offas a society if we are investing
robustly in our publiceducation.
And so how do people feel?
Like they are a part of thatsolution, they are part of that
(16:59):
movement, they are part of thatjourney, so that we can get to
the outcome that we all share incommon.
Molly (17:06):
Is part of your, like, secret to enlisting folks,
bringing up challenges and beingsort of candid.
I feel like you're somebody whocan speak really directly, but
not in a way that makes peopleget on their back foot.
They're more like oh, that'sthat, that is the reality.
Here we go.
I'm sort of curious how you goabout doing that.
Bess (17:28):
For me, it's been learning how to present challenges in a
way that they don't seeminsurmountable, and I think this
is especially true in the worldof philanthropy that you don't
want anybody to ever feel like,well, that is just way too big
of a problem that, no matterwhat we do, you're never going
to solve it.
Here's an example we all knowthere's a teacher shortage.
(17:48):
We see it in our schools, wefeel it in our classrooms.
But if you just say there's ateacher shortage, that just
feels like, well, how do we fixthat?
So what we did instead in thislast year is we already know
that we have people on ourcampuses, adults on our campuses
, who haven't completed theirbachelor's degrees but want to
become teachers, and theyalready are invested in our kids
(18:09):
, they're already in our school,they already have relationships
.
So how do we support them?
So how about you give me $25,000and that will support four of
these adults getting theirbachelor's degrees?
We already have a partner withanother organization that will
help them complete theirbachelor's degrees.
It's amazing, so good.
And then we'll get them on thepath to getting their credential
(18:29):
.
We have a teacher residencyprogram.
They will get their teachingcredential Fabulous.
So that's suddenly this hugechallenge of a teacher shortage.
You break it down to like Ineed you to support a pathway
for four teachers, four adults,to get their bachelor's degrees,
to become, get their teachingcredential and become teachers
in our schools.
So to me, a lot of the workthat I feel like is critical for
(18:55):
myself and my team is how doyou translate big problems into
solvable moments and challengesthat people feel like they can?
They can have an impact there,yeah that's really good.
Yeah, I'll give another example.
So we had our first bigin-person fundraiser last fall.
We hadn't done a lot of bigin-person events, obviously for
COVID reasons, but we had thisevent we called Give Back to
(19:19):
School Night and we had one ofour building managers build this
giant, beautiful wooden treethat we called the Giving Tree,
and everybody who came to thisevent was invited to pick an
apple and each applecorresponded with a different
project and a different dollaramount that they could give.
So you might be giving $5,000to support college visits, yeah,
(19:42):
and then you'd write your nameon the apple and you'd hang your
apple on the tree and suddenly,like, people felt like there
was a tangible thing that theywere supporting in service of
all 15,000 plus Aspire scholars.
But we weren't just saying justsupport public education, just
support charter schools, justsupport kids, yeah.
And I feel like that way of youknow, influencing, persuading
(20:05):
people, enlisting people in away that they felt they had a
meaningful purpose in theprocess was really it was a
really beautiful way to engagepeople in the work.
J.B> (20:32):
As we navigate through our careers, we're under the
influence of lots and lots ofdifferent kinds of people.
Tell me a little bit about yourcircle of influence.
Who do you turn to when you'remaking big decisions?
Bess (20:44):
Yeah, let me back it up a little bit.
So when I first started as anassociate at the law firm where
I worked in San Francisco, atthe time, you were assigned to a
partner who would be yourmentor for the first two years.
And I got my partner mentorassignment and everybody, when
they heard who it was, kind ofgasped and said, oh God, this,
I'm so sorry.
(21:04):
The last two women who haveworked for this partner have
quit in tears because he wasjust so horrible to them and I
was like, oh, this is going tobe great, yeah, um.
So I I went in for one of myfirst meetings with him to kind
of meet him and understand whatour working relationship was
going to be like.
And he said, here's my adviceto you Don't fuck up.
(21:25):
And I was like, well, that iswonderful.
What am I supposed to do withthat?
And so I immediately thoughtthis is not.
This person will not be mymentor.
What I learned we ended upworking together my entire 10
years at the law firm.
I loved this man.
We grew to have an incredibleworking relationship.
I absolutely saw him and stillsee him as a mentor, and what I
(21:49):
learned from him is that hetrusted me and his saying don't
fuck up was really like Ibelieve you can do this work.
You're going to make mistakesalong the way, that's fine, but
don't really fuck things up somuch that we can't fix the
problem.
And he gave me a lot ofresponsibility right out of the
(22:10):
gate.
He gave me plenty ofopportunities to make mistakes,
but I knew that I had hissupport along the way, so he was
probably one of my earlymentors.
I left the law firm.
J.B> (22:22):
I might want to leave him with a little bit of advice on
like here's how I mightintroduce you to your, your
mentees.
Bess (22:32):
Well, it was funny.
We had, um, uh, he'd been atthe firm any number of years and
he was, oh, he was getting amentorship award.
I think I nominated him manynumber of years and he was, oh,
he was getting a mentorshipaward.
I think I nominated him and Ishared.
I did share um that line whenand I was like, well, despite my
introduction, to this man.
He ended up being a wonderfulmentor, um, but I I left the law
(22:53):
firm after 10 years for anumber of reasons, but in part
because I wanted to be at aplace that felt more mission
aligned and values aligned.
Um, and while I learned atremendous amount being a
litigator, I just it was timefor me to move on to the next
thing, and I ended up at Aspire,an organization that I knew
because I had taught at one ofthe Aspire schools many years
prior, and I've had at Aspiretwo women bosses.
(23:15):
So we've had two CEOs in mytime there.
They've both been women.
One of them, when she was CEOand I was there, or she was
there, was not married and didnot have kids During her time
there, she got married and hadtwo stepkids.
The other one, who's my currentboss, is married with two kids,
and I feel like I look to hernot just as a professional
(23:38):
mentor but also as a working mom, somebody who has a really
successful career but who whosevalues are really aligned with
mine and I she's.
I've also learned from her avery different style of
leadership.
Like I tend to be bold, kind ofbrash, I mean, I don't think
(23:58):
I'm abrasive, but maybe somepeople would.
But I, you know, I talk loud, Isay big things, I dream big.
And my boss now is like a quietleader.
She leads from the back.
You know, she is so thoughtfuland so intentional and it took
me a while to recognize thatthat is a really effective style
of leadership too, yeah, and soI always try to think about
(24:20):
when I'm doing something big orbold or want to do something big
and bold like how would sheapproach this?
Because not everybody's goingto react in the same way to a
particular style of leadership.
So I think about her and lookto her a lot of times around how
would she lead?
And she's also really goodabout getting people's voices at
(24:42):
the table and I'm sometimeslike let's just go, let's, let's
do this, let's get it done,let's move full speed ahead.
And she has really taught mesometimes I need to slow my roll
and make sure that I understandwhat are the unintended
consequences of these decisions,who will be impacted by these
decisions.
She's really taught me, likeslow down and you can be just as
(25:07):
effective.
J.B> (25:09):
I always love working with people whose natural instinct
is to speak last and to leteveryone else get their two
cents in.
It's not my, my way generally.
Not mine and um and so it'sreally it's.
I learn a lot from those people.
Molly (25:30):
I'm curious, bess has someone ever, have you ever, had
an experience where you've hada really strong opinion?
You've come in, you're bold,you know exactly what needs to
get done, you're like ready togo all the way forward and, um,
someone changes your mind,someone influences you, someone
persuades you.
And how did they and how didthey do that?
Bess (25:50):
I was going to be the mc for a big awards lunch and we
were having at aspire and I waswriting my own speech for this
and kind of toying with thesedifferent ideas and different
analogies I might draw on and Ithought this is Uber and Lyft
are like, are, like you know,alternatives to the traditional
(26:25):
taxi service.
This was a while ago, guys, sojust work with me here.
So I was all in on this and Iliterally was like recording
myself with the speech, sayingthis is so great.
I bring it to my team andthey're like this makes no sense
to us and you've got to startover.
Because I tend to just begung-ho and want to jump right
in.
I often am doing that with likean overly exuberant approach,
(26:48):
and I do sometimes need to bereined in and said like let's
pause, let's think about this,is this really going to work?
And I think, too, in my role now, so much of the work I do is in
service of something else,whether that something else is
our schools or our regions, orour families, or public
education in general.
It's really forced me to thinkabout, like, what do people want
(27:11):
out of this work and out of thework that I'm leading or my
team is leading?
And it can't just be what I see, it can't just be my vision, it
can't just be what I want.
It's like is this?
I don't want to be the tailthat wags the dog.
So slowing my exuberance,tempering my exuberance, is
something that I feel like I'mstill learning.
Molly (27:34):
How do you work with your team or have councils or
advisory groups to help youaddress those blind spots so
that your whole crew can be moreinfluential together, like how
does, as an executive directorof a foundation, you have to
have a whole team that iscatalytic in the same way?
Bess (27:53):
Yeah, I think for us it's been a lot about mindset shift
and that has informed shifts tohow we do our work.
So it's really about, with myteam, thinking about reminding
ourselves that we work inservice of our school scholars
and communities.
It used to be, when I firstcame to Aspire, that all the
philanthropy we did wasessentially to cover the deficit
(28:16):
or the gap that was held at thehome office, so there wasn't a
lot of need for engagement withour executive directors or our
school leaders.
It was really like we're justtrying to, you know, fund the
home office.
We have very intentionallyshifted that.
So now the work that we do inphilanthropy is absolutely to
provide additional resources toour schools and our regions and
our scholars and our communities.
(28:37):
But the only way we can do thateffectively is to talk to those
people about what are thethings that you need.
So for my team, what that'slooked like is how do we go out
to our regions whether it's tothe executive director of our
region or to the principals ofour schools or the families who
choose to send their kids to ourschools and say what are you
(28:57):
most missing?
What do you most need, what'syour highest priority?
And so really again likeshifting our approach and our
mindset of like we're not justabout bringing in resources.
To bring in resources, we wantto do it with intention and
really with input from all thestakeholders who we serve.
J.B> (29:17):
You and your partner, dan, are raising five kids.
Y'all are kind of the modernday, brady Bunch.
How are you teaching theminfluence?
What are some of the successesthat you're having?
What are some of the failuresyou're having, too?
Bess (29:43):
to parent and co-parent five kids across multiple
households with multiple parentsinvolved.
So part of it is aboutinfluencing kids, part of it is
about influencing the otherparents, which that is the
harder part, honestly, I'm sure,I'm sure.
But I think you know we have alot of really honest
conversations in our householdaround privilege and around
positionality and around whatare the platforms that our kids
(30:05):
have available to them inwhatever role they're in in any
particular moment.
So, whether you're an athleteor you're an ASB, you know how,
how you're already in a positionwhere you can have influence
and how are you going to usethat?
I also had so two of my kidsrun a summer camp out of our
(30:27):
backyard.
This is the second summer thatthey did it and I after day two
of this year's summer camp.
So it's my 15 year old son andmy 13 year old daughter who
could not be more differentpersonality type, but they run
the summer camp together.
So I'm sitting in between thetwo of them on the couch and
they are just going at it.
Because my son doesn't like theway it feels like my daughter is
(30:48):
telling him what to do everyday and my daughter feels like
if she doesn't tell him what todo, he's not going to do
anything, and so they're havingthis back and forth and I'm
sitting there like do Iintervene?
Do I let this just play out?
And, of course, like do Iintervene?
Do I let this just play out?
And of course, being who I am,I couldn't just let it play out.
So I you know, I said, hey, Ihear all of what you two are
(31:08):
saying.
I think this is a reallyhealthy dialogue.
You two are siblings running asummer camp for eight kids, like
eight, ranging age from threeto 10, you're going to have some
conflict.
So I said here's an offering.
You know, instead of trying to,within the moment, navigate
who's running what activity atthe summer camp, why don't you
think about maybe each of youtakes a day and you're the lead
(31:30):
counselor for that day, and myson says I love it, let's do it.
And my daughter's like no, I'mnot doing that.
So I clearly exerted lessinfluence over my daughter than
my son, but I think they alsosaw themselves as having the
opportunity to influence theother sibling and like, how do
(31:50):
we use this moment to convincethe other sibling to try
something different?
And the status quo wasn'tworking for either of them and
some it wasn't.
The status quo wasn't workingfor either of them and so they
had to figure out a way tocompromise, to influence each
other, to come to some differentsolution, and it ended up.
The camp ended beautifully Ravereviews, five out of five stars
(32:14):
.
They're doing it again nextsummer.
J.B> (32:15):
That's awesome.
And what was the what was thefinal verdict on?
On sort of, how did they workit out between them?
Bess (32:21):
Ultimately.
Ultimately, they bought intothe idea that maybe it would
work better if one of them tookthe lead counselor role on any
given day instead of.
You know, that way, my son hadan opportunity to demonstrate
his leadership skills and mydaughter had an opportunity to
kind of sit back a little bitand let things play out, which
is hard for her, I know, doesn'tdoesn't remind me her, I know.
J.B> (32:40):
Doesn't doesn't remind me of anyone I know.
Bess (32:43):
Yeah.
J.B> (32:46):
Apple tree.
Bess (32:47):
Yes, Jamie.
J.B> (32:49):
Bess, where can people keep up with you and connect
with your work?
Bess (32:53):
As far as public schools.
I'm on LinkedIn, I'm onInstagram and this is just an
aside like I do, I am alwayslooking for people to join the
foundation board.
So, you know, I do feel likethat's a place where I can have
influence, but also, people onthe foundation board are in a
position to have a tremendousamount of influence over their
friends and networks, and it'sbeen a really it's been a really
(33:15):
rewarding part of my job.
J.B> (33:22):
And that's the show.
If you like this episode,please share it with your
friends and drop us a rating andreview it while you're at it.
Keep up with us on LinkedIn.
Our Instagram handle is atunseriousfun and our website is
unseriouscom, where you can findall of our previous episodes
and show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Molly (33:45):
It would be like working out in our high heels, running
on the treadmill together, youknow, getting ready for meetings
.
This is Unserious.
Everyone is trying to influencesomething or someone to get the
outcomes they want, even whenwe're not actively thinking
about it.
As humans, we're hardwired topersuade At work, in
(00:29):
relationships, even negotiatingdinner.
Influence shapes the way wemove through the world.
But what is it exactly?
Is it about the strength of anargument, or maybe something
deeper or softer?
I'm Jamie Skelton, joined byMolly McMahon.
Molly (00:47):
Hi everyone.
J.B> (00:48):
Our guest is Bess Kennedy, former corporate litigator and
founding executive director ofthe Aspire Public Schools
Foundation, where she jugglesthe needs of students, parents
and educators across California.
Bess has spent years masteringthe art of persuasion, whether
it's in the courtroom, theboardroom or the toughest room
(01:10):
of all, a classroom of fourthgraders.
Welcome to Unserious Bess.
Bess (01:19):
Thank you, Jamie and Molly .
It's a delight to be here withyou.
J.B> (01:23):
You studied philosophy, you went to law school and you
spent years working as anattorney, and I presume you
learned a lot about how tostructure and organize arguments
.
Is that all there is toinfluencing?
Is it just the superiorargument?
Bess (01:39):
I mean I would like to say , yeah, it's that simple, but we
all know it is not.
I was thinking, when you guysbroached this with me and shared
with me the topic, I was like Idon't think of myself as
somebody who holds power,persuasion over anybody, not
even my own children, listen tome.
But then I started likethinking a little bit more about
it and I was like, oh, I guessover the course of my life I
(02:02):
have had lots of instances whereI have used influence and the
powers of persuasion to makethings happen, and the first
example that came to mind when Ithought about it was when I was
a kid, my brothers and I reallywanted to get our own landline.
I mean, this is the olden days,guys, right.
And my parents, my father, whois a college professor, my
(02:22):
mother, who is a social worker,both very influential people in
their own respective spheressaid to us if you want a
landline, you need to write aproposal and you need to submit
the proposal and we willevaluate it.
I think I was probably 11 yearsold, maybe my brothers were 12
and 9.
Being the middle child and theonly girl it, it of course fell
(02:44):
on me to draft this proposal toconvince my parents that we
should get a landline.
And to do that I knew I had tothink about it couldn't just be
we want this.
Yeah, it was like what is in itfor them?
How will this benefit them?
How do I enlist them in thisoutcome that I want?
So it's a positive foreverybody.
And I still have that proposal.
(03:05):
It's written on a yellow legalpad and we submitted it to my
parents and they returned it tous several days later after, I'm
sure, deep consideration and itwas approved.
It was approved.
So we got our own Kennedy kidslandline that then we proceeded
to like fight over who got touse the phone at what time of
the day.
(03:26):
But that, to me, was the firstmoment that came to mind when
you mentioned this topic of like.
How do we think aboutorganizing around a change we
want to affect?
How do we enlist stakeholdersin the process so that we get
the outcome that we want, andhow do we make those
stakeholders feel invested inthat outcome in the same ways
that we feel the outcome that wewant, and how do we make those
stakeholders feel invested inthat outcome in the same ways
(03:46):
that we feel invested in it?
So you know, over the course ofmy personal and professional
life, I've honed those skills, Iwould say, in a number of
different arenas.
So, obviously, being anattorney and being a litigator
in particular, you have to thinkabout what's the outcome you
want and how do you influence,whether it's your client or a
(04:07):
judge.
And what I found a lot of timesis you start with you know
what's the desired outcome, whatis the thing that we're working
towards here and can you findalignment there?
And then you start workingtowards like and what's the
process to get us there, whosevoice do we need to include?
And what I found as an attorneydoing this work was really
(04:27):
talking with clients about theirdesired outcome helped us
ground the work to get us there.
So oftentimes, if the desiredoutcome was I just want this
person to apologize.
That's a very differentapproach than litigating
something for, you know, months,if not years, in a courtroom in
front of a judge.
So instead it's like how do weengage with the other party,
(04:51):
with opposing counsel, to sayreally what our client wants?
We can save ourselves a lot oftime, we can save our clients a
lot of money If we can findresolution here that works for
everybody, that doesn't involve,you know, going in front of a
judge in a courtroom.
That doesn't involve, you know,going in front of a judge in a
courtroom.
Obviously, jv you mentioned, youknow, I taught fourth grade and
(05:12):
, yes, working with fourthgraders, as any teacher will
tell you, any grade.
Really it's about how do youbuild a classroom community
where you have shared outcomes?
How are you influencing peopleto make the quote, unquote right
choices every day when theywalk through the doors of your
classroom?
You know, for me it was reallyabout as a brand new teacher.
I mean, I taught in anemergency credential.
I didn't have training as ateacher until I was already in
front of the classroom.
It was really about what's thekind of classroom we want to
(05:34):
have here.
What do we want to feel when wewalk through the doors every
day?
What kind of community do wewant to build?
And really helping nine and 10year olds feel like they had a
part in building that community.
You know they were part of thecommunity and so what they
wanted to be a part of was whatthey had to be part of building,
and I love that.
I love that part of being ateacher.
You know where half my kids areback in school.
(05:55):
Half of them will be back inschool by the end of this week
and I know the first few daysand weeks of the school year are
all about.
What's the classroom communitythat you're building, whether
that's my senior year in highschool or my fifth grader, who
will start on Thursday.
And that, to me, is also aboutinfluence.
Like how are you, as a teacherand educator, influencing the 26
, 30 kids who walk through yourdoor in the morning to be a part
(06:18):
of that, to feel like they'repart of that community?
Molly (06:20):
So I'm curious when you think about, like, amazing
proposals, when you think aboutoutcomes in a proposal, how do
you like, do you think aboutoutcomes that are emotional?
Do you think about outcomesthat are social?
Do you think about outcomesthat are financial?
How do you sort of pinpointwhat those, what that outcome is
and how it matches up with themotivations of the folks you're
(06:42):
trying to persuade?
Bess (06:43):
In my current role I mean part of the work I oversee at
Aspire is all of our advocacywork.
That could be something assimple as like how are we
engaging with local school boardofficials to what are issues at
the statewide legislative levelthat, where we want to impact,
have an impact?
That, essentially, to simplifywithheld funds from schools when
(07:08):
kids were absent for quarantine, for mandatory COVID
quarantining.
Yeah, this was literallyhundreds of millions of dollars
that schools were losing out on.
Now Aspire Public Schools is acharter school management
organization.
So our schools are publicschools but they're charter
schools and we were not part ofwhat they called hold harmless.
So whereas a traditionaldistrict school would still get
(07:30):
this funding from the state,even if kids are marked absent,
charter schools were did nothave that same benefit.
So anytime one of our studentswas absent for a mandatory
quarantine which you mightremember at the time was like 10
days yeah, the state withheldmoney from us.
This had a devastatingfinancial impact on our schools
at a time when we really neededthose resources to make sure our
(07:50):
schools were safe.
So we had to look at this likehow are we going to affect
change at the statewide level toget the same protection as
traditional public schools.
Who are the stakeholders?
We need to influence, obviouslyat the legislative level,
somebody at the governor'soffice, but also our families
and our school principals.
Why would this matter to them?
So how do we go about and sayto our families like you know,
(08:15):
molly, you were asking like afiscal thing for us as an
organization, the set of fiscalimplication for our families.
We wanted them to feel like itwas okay to have your kids stay
home if they had COVID or had anexposure, and be quarantined
and not worry that your schoolwas going to somehow lose out on
resources to support your kidwhen they return to the
classroom.
We also said who else can joinus?
(08:36):
What other partners might wefind in this movement?
So we went out to other charterschools, but also to district
schools, and said can we all getbehind this ask of our governor
and the state legislator to saythis is about kids, you care
about kids, you're in education,you're a teacher or you're a
district administrator, you're aparent.
This is an issue that we canall get behind so that we can
(08:58):
best support our kids.
So for me in that moment it wasreally about what's going to be
the motivator for each one ofthose different stakeholder
groups, whether you're a parentor an assembly member, or even
the governor, and ultimately wewere successful.
for Aspire, that meant recouping$120 million that the state had
withheld because of thesemandatory quarantines.
Molly (09:19):
And they're building trust with this school and that
relationship with the school.
Bess (09:23):
Like they're being cared for in that way, totally.
Molly (09:24):
Yeah, they're being cared for in that way, totally.
Bess (09:27):
Yeah.
J.B> (09:32):
On the show we play a little quickfire game with our
guest called Hire Fire Boss.
We're going to have ahypothetical task and some
fictional candidates toaccomplish that task.
You have to hire one, fire one,and one of them is going to be
your boss.
The task at hand is Aspire islaunching a new scaled learning
(09:55):
program across its schoolsfocused on sustainability,
justice and the arts, and yourteam is made up of famous middle
children.
Because we are middle childrenand I think that the middle
child is the most influentialchild.
Middle child number one MileyCyrus, who is the fourth of
(10:17):
sixth.
Middle child number two isMadonna, the third of eight, and
middle child number three isMark Zuckerberg.
Middle child number three isMark Zuckerberg, the second of
four.
Molly (10:29):
That is a top-notch team for you, bess, I know so.
Bess (10:32):
I hire one, fire one, and one of them is my boss.
You have to work for one ofthem.
I mean, I'm sort of approachingthis as like do I make the
selfish choice, or do I make?
J.B> (10:42):
And it's an Aspire.
Well, it's an Aspire projecttoo.
Bess (10:47):
Well, I don't know that any of those folks would fly at
Aspire, but let's go ahead.
I'm going to say, like I wantMiley Cyrus.
Wait, I hire Miley Cyrus, isgoing to be my boss.
And then I'm going to hire MarkZuckerberg.
He's going to report to me.
Yeah, and I do love Madonna.
First concert of my life,seattle Kingdom, madonna Ooh
(11:09):
what.
J.B> (11:12):
Your first concert was Madonna.
Bess (11:12):
I don't count Joan Baez at Frost because Madonna's way
cooler, but I feel like I'd haveto fire Madonna.
Sorry, I just don't know thatthe vibe would work for this
context.
There you go.
J.B> (11:24):
A little too many alphas in the room.
Molly (11:29):
What's the rationale for miley as as the boss, I?
Bess (11:31):
feel like she's outside the box thinker, like she's not
afraid to make some bold choices, but she also is like resonant
with people.
You know she's not like thepeople she's pissing off or
people I would be comfortablepissing off, whereas I feel like
mark zuckerberg is like there'sa lot of hatred but I think he
could probably get things done.
That's why I want him to be mygrunt person, like I want him to
(11:52):
do the work at my direction whyfire madonna?
she's a little much, you know, Idon't.
I feel like she wouldn't listento anybody.
Okay, I feel like she's her owncreature, like she's gonna do
her own bold, big thing, whichis great if you're on your own,
but if you're part of a team andyou're working in schools, like
maybe you're not listening asmuch to learn, you're just kind
(12:14):
of doing.
Molly (12:15):
I think Miley would be a delight to work with.
I feel like we would be likeworking out in our high heels,
running on the treadmilltogether, you know, getting
ready for meetings she's a deity, I think that's one of the
things that she does to getready for concerts and shows,
and she's got that deep voice.
You'd constantly be like samevoice same voice, I know same
voice, it just reverberatesthrough your body and you'd be
like, oh, I feel so good everytime you speak.
J.B> (12:37):
I would totally want to share, like be like a cube buddy
with Miley.
Cyrus so we're both queer.
I think it's safe to say thatfor many queer people that
becoming an astute read ofpeople and a nimble code
(12:59):
switcher, it's something thatbecomes second nature and in
some level it's a survivaltactic.
But I also think it really is auseful skill and influence for
you.
What is what is your queernesstaught you about persuasion?
Bess (13:18):
When I was an attorney I had a client who was an elderly
gentleman who had been verysuccessful in his business
career.
He was an investor and I feltlike I was a younger woman at
the time and I felt like Ireally need to show up as a real
professional.
I know what I'm doing, you knowI didn't want to have that
(13:39):
imposter feeling, but you know,this guy had clearly made it in
his career and he was in hislate 70s and I was one of the
attorneys on the team workingwith him, and so I felt like I
had to show up in a very certainway to sort of gain his trust
and respect.
Throughout the course ofrepresenting him I met his
daughter, who was probably atthe time in her 50s.
She, in the course ofconversation, came out to me and
(14:03):
then I was like, oh, now I havea different way of showing up
to gain her trust, and it alsobecame clear to me that she was
an influencer on her father andthe decisions that he was going
to be making.
So I felt like I had two waysin with this particular client,
like one was through hisdaughter, who identified as
queer, as did I, and sort ofsharing that side of myself with
(14:25):
her, something I had kept fromher father because I didn't know
, you know, how he as an olderwhite man would react to that,
so had shown up reallydifferently for him versus with
his daughter, but over thecourse of representing him,
realizing like actually boththose parts of my identity were
going to be really valuable inbeing a trusted resource for
(14:46):
them.
Molly (14:47):
Yeah, that's really cool.
I mean I even like hearing that.
That makes me think, like in,like one of the art, I think art
of persuasion.
There's trust is a key part toit.
Like you're not going to dosome, you're not going to do
something, unless there's anelement of trust or care or
accountability within thatrelationship.
(15:09):
And I'm curious like how do you, how do you, go about building
trust quickly?
Bess (15:14):
So I think it depends also on the audience, the
stakeholder group.
So for our families, it's aboutshowing up, it's about being in
schools, it's about being atcommunity meetings, it's about
listening, it's aboutrecognizing the gifts that they
are bringing to this work andrecognizing them as partners in
this work.
So I never want anybody to feellike I am showing up to fix
(15:35):
something.
I am showing up to learn and tounlock place of humility and a
place of learning.
And often that is literallyshowing up in schools and in
classrooms and communityorganizing.
And then I look at, you know,for example, our, our foundation
(15:55):
board.
So these are people who arevolunteering their time,
expertise and donating theirresources to support the work
that we're doing at Aspire.
That's really different, right,that is building trust in a way
of like I have expertise inthis, yeah, I'm bringing you
into this work.
I need you to trust that whenyou're making an investment,
(16:15):
particularly of your financialresources, that those will be
put to good use.
And so that's about you know,having conversations to me,
really candid conversations.
I am never trying to do some dogand pony show and pull the wool
over people's eyes.
I feel much more comfortablebeing really candid, like here
are the bright spots, here aresome of the challenges, here are
(16:35):
the ways that you can impactthe work that we do.
Here's how your support canhelp us move the needle.
So, again, like aligning on theoutcome that we want, like we,
I believe we are all better offas a society if we are investing
robustly in our publiceducation.
And so how do people feel?
Like they are a part of thatsolution, they are part of that
(16:59):
movement, they are part of thatjourney, so that we can get to
the outcome that we all share incommon.
Molly (17:06):
Is part of your, like, secret to enlisting folks,
bringing up challenges and beingsort of candid.
I feel like you're somebody whocan speak really directly, but
not in a way that makes peopleget on their back foot.
They're more like oh, that'sthat, that is the reality.
Here we go.
I'm sort of curious how you goabout doing that.
Bess (17:28):
For me, it's been learning how to present challenges in a
way that they don't seeminsurmountable, and I think this
is especially true in the worldof philanthropy that you don't
want anybody to ever feel like,well, that is just way too big
of a problem that, no matterwhat we do, you're never going
to solve it.
Here's an example we all knowthere's a teacher shortage.
(17:48):
We see it in our schools, wefeel it in our classrooms.
But if you just say there's ateacher shortage, that just
feels like, well, how do we fixthat?
So what we did instead in thislast year is we already know
that we have people on ourcampuses, adults on our campuses
, who haven't completed theirbachelor's degrees but want to
become teachers, and theyalready are invested in our kids
(18:09):
, they're already in our school,they already have relationships
.
So how do we support them?
So how about you give me $25,000and that will support four of
these adults getting theirbachelor's degrees?
We already have a partner withanother organization that will
help them complete theirbachelor's degrees.
It's amazing, so good.
And then we'll get them on thepath to getting their credential
(18:29):
.
We have a teacher residencyprogram.
They will get their teachingcredential Fabulous.
So that's suddenly this hugechallenge of a teacher shortage.
You break it down to like Ineed you to support a pathway
for four teachers, four adults,to get their bachelor's degrees,
to become, get their teachingcredential and become teachers
in our schools.
So to me, a lot of the workthat I feel like is critical for
(18:55):
myself and my team is how doyou translate big problems into
solvable moments and challengesthat people feel like they can?
They can have an impact there,yeah that's really good.
Yeah, I'll give another example.
So we had our first bigin-person fundraiser last fall.
We hadn't done a lot of bigin-person events, obviously for
COVID reasons, but we had thisevent we called Give Back to
(19:19):
School Night and we had one ofour building managers build this
giant, beautiful wooden treethat we called the Giving Tree,
and everybody who came to thisevent was invited to pick an
apple and each applecorresponded with a different
project and a different dollaramount that they could give.
So you might be giving $5,000to support college visits, yeah,
(19:42):
and then you'd write your nameon the apple and you'd hang your
apple on the tree and suddenly,like, people felt like there
was a tangible thing that theywere supporting in service of
all 15,000 plus Aspire scholars.
But we weren't just saying justsupport public education, just
support charter schools, justsupport kids, yeah.
And I feel like that way of youknow, influencing, persuading
(20:05):
people, enlisting people in away that they felt they had a
meaningful purpose in theprocess was really it was a
really beautiful way to engagepeople in the work.
J.B> (20:32):
As we navigate through our careers, we're under the
influence of lots and lots ofdifferent kinds of people.
Tell me a little bit about yourcircle of influence.
Who do you turn to when you'remaking big decisions?
Bess (20:44):
Yeah, let me back it up a little bit.
So when I first started as anassociate at the law firm where
I worked in San Francisco, atthe time, you were assigned to a
partner who would be yourmentor for the first two years.
And I got my partner mentorassignment and everybody, when
they heard who it was, kind ofgasped and said, oh God, this,
I'm so sorry.
(21:04):
The last two women who haveworked for this partner have
quit in tears because he wasjust so horrible to them and I
was like, oh, this is going tobe great, yeah, um.
So I I went in for one of myfirst meetings with him to kind
of meet him and understand whatour working relationship was
going to be like.
And he said, here's my adviceto you Don't fuck up.
(21:25):
And I was like, well, that iswonderful.
What am I supposed to do withthat?
And so I immediately thoughtthis is not.
This person will not be mymentor.
What I learned we ended upworking together my entire 10
years at the law firm.
I loved this man.
We grew to have an incredibleworking relationship.
I absolutely saw him and stillsee him as a mentor, and what I
(21:49):
learned from him is that hetrusted me and his saying don't
fuck up was really like Ibelieve you can do this work.
You're going to make mistakesalong the way, that's fine, but
don't really fuck things up somuch that we can't fix the
problem.
And he gave me a lot ofresponsibility right out of the
(22:10):
gate.
He gave me plenty ofopportunities to make mistakes,
but I knew that I had hissupport along the way, so he was
probably one of my earlymentors.
I left the law firm.
J.B> (22:22):
I might want to leave him with a little bit of advice on
like here's how I mightintroduce you to your, your
mentees.
Bess (22:32):
Well, it was funny.
We had, um, uh, he'd been atthe firm any number of years and
he was, oh, he was getting amentorship award.
I think I nominated him manynumber of years and he was, oh,
he was getting a mentorshipaward.
I think I nominated him and Ishared.
I did share um that line whenand I was like, well, despite my
introduction, to this man.
He ended up being a wonderfulmentor, um, but I I left the law
(22:53):
firm after 10 years for anumber of reasons, but in part
because I wanted to be at aplace that felt more mission
aligned and values aligned.
Um, and while I learned atremendous amount being a
litigator, I just it was timefor me to move on to the next
thing, and I ended up at Aspire,an organization that I knew
because I had taught at one ofthe Aspire schools many years
prior, and I've had at Aspiretwo women bosses.
(23:15):
So we've had two CEOs in mytime there.
They've both been women.
One of them, when she was CEOand I was there, or she was
there, was not married and didnot have kids During her time
there, she got married and hadtwo stepkids.
The other one, who's my currentboss, is married with two kids,
and I feel like I look to hernot just as a professional
(23:38):
mentor but also as a working mom, somebody who has a really
successful career but who whosevalues are really aligned with
mine and I she's.
I've also learned from her avery different style of
leadership.
Like I tend to be bold, kind ofbrash, I mean, I don't think
(23:58):
I'm abrasive, but maybe somepeople would.
But I, you know, I talk loud, Isay big things, I dream big.
And my boss now is like a quietleader.
She leads from the back.
You know, she is so thoughtfuland so intentional and it took
me a while to recognize thatthat is a really effective style
of leadership too, yeah, and soI always try to think about
(24:20):
when I'm doing something big orbold or want to do something big
and bold like how would sheapproach this?
Because not everybody's goingto react in the same way to a
particular style of leadership.
So I think about her and lookto her a lot of times around how
would she lead?
And she's also really goodabout getting people's voices at
(24:42):
the table and I'm sometimeslike let's just go, let's, let's
do this, let's get it done,let's move full speed ahead.
And she has really taught mesometimes I need to slow my roll
and make sure that I understandwhat are the unintended
consequences of these decisions,who will be impacted by these
decisions.
She's really taught me, likeslow down and you can be just as
(25:07):
effective.
J.B> (25:09):
I always love working with people whose natural instinct
is to speak last and to leteveryone else get their two
cents in.
It's not my, my way generally.
Not mine and um and so it'sreally it's.
I learn a lot from those people.
Molly (25:30):
I'm curious, bess has someone ever, have you ever, had
an experience where you've hada really strong opinion?
You've come in, you're bold,you know exactly what needs to
get done, you're like ready togo all the way forward and, um,
someone changes your mind,someone influences you, someone
persuades you.
And how did they and how didthey do that?
Bess (25:50):
I was going to be the mc for a big awards lunch and we
were having at aspire and I waswriting my own speech for this
and kind of toying with thesedifferent ideas and different
analogies I might draw on and Ithought this is Uber and Lyft
are like, are, like you know,alternatives to the traditional
(26:25):
taxi service.
This was a while ago, guys, sojust work with me here.
So I was all in on this and Iliterally was like recording
myself with the speech, sayingthis is so great.
I bring it to my team andthey're like this makes no sense
to us and you've got to startover.
Because I tend to just begung-ho and want to jump right
in.
I often am doing that with likean overly exuberant approach,
(26:48):
and I do sometimes need to bereined in and said like let's
pause, let's think about this,is this really going to work?
And I think, too, in my role now, so much of the work I do is in
service of something else,whether that something else is
our schools or our regions, orour families, or public
education in general.
It's really forced me to thinkabout, like, what do people want
(27:11):
out of this work and out of thework that I'm leading or my
team is leading?
And it can't just be what I see, it can't just be my vision, it
can't just be what I want.
It's like is this?
I don't want to be the tailthat wags the dog.
So slowing my exuberance,tempering my exuberance, is
something that I feel like I'mstill learning.
Molly (27:34):
How do you work with your team or have councils or
advisory groups to help youaddress those blind spots so
that your whole crew can be moreinfluential together, like how
does, as an executive directorof a foundation, you have to
have a whole team that iscatalytic in the same way?
Bess (27:53):
Yeah, I think for us it's been a lot about mindset shift
and that has informed shifts tohow we do our work.
So it's really about, with myteam, thinking about reminding
ourselves that we work inservice of our school scholars
and communities.
It used to be, when I firstcame to Aspire, that all the
philanthropy we did wasessentially to cover the deficit
(28:16):
or the gap that was held at thehome office, so there wasn't a
lot of need for engagement withour executive directors or our
school leaders.
It was really like we're justtrying to, you know, fund the
home office.
We have very intentionallyshifted that.
So now the work that we do inphilanthropy is absolutely to
provide additional resources toour schools and our regions and
our scholars and our communities.
(28:37):
But the only way we can do thateffectively is to talk to those
people about what are thethings that you need.
So for my team, what that'slooked like is how do we go out
to our regions whether it's tothe executive director of our
region or to the principals ofour schools or the families who
choose to send their kids to ourschools and say what are you
(28:57):
most missing?
What do you most need, what'syour highest priority?
And so really again likeshifting our approach and our
mindset of like we're not justabout bringing in resources.
To bring in resources, we wantto do it with intention and
really with input from all thestakeholders who we serve.
J.B> (29:17):
You and your partner, dan, are raising five kids.
Y'all are kind of the modernday, brady Bunch.
How are you teaching theminfluence?
What are some of the successesthat you're having?
What are some of the failuresyou're having, too?
Bess (29:43):
to parent and co-parent five kids across multiple
households with multiple parentsinvolved.
So part of it is aboutinfluencing kids, part of it is
about influencing the otherparents, which that is the
harder part, honestly, I'm sure,I'm sure.
But I think you know we have alot of really honest
conversations in our householdaround privilege and around
positionality and around whatare the platforms that our kids
(30:05):
have available to them inwhatever role they're in in any
particular moment.
So, whether you're an athleteor you're an ASB, you know how,
how you're already in a positionwhere you can have influence
and how are you going to usethat?
I also had so two of my kidsrun a summer camp out of our
(30:27):
backyard.
This is the second summer thatthey did it and I after day two
of this year's summer camp.
So it's my 15 year old son andmy 13 year old daughter who
could not be more differentpersonality type, but they run
the summer camp together.
So I'm sitting in between thetwo of them on the couch and
they are just going at it.
Because my son doesn't like theway it feels like my daughter is
(30:48):
telling him what to do everyday and my daughter feels like
if she doesn't tell him what todo, he's not going to do
anything, and so they're havingthis back and forth and I'm
sitting there like do Iintervene?
Do I let this just play out?
And, of course, like do Iintervene?
Do I let this just play out?
And of course, being who I am,I couldn't just let it play out.
So I you know, I said, hey, Ihear all of what you two are
(31:08):
saying.
I think this is a reallyhealthy dialogue.
You two are siblings running asummer camp for eight kids, like
eight, ranging age from threeto 10, you're going to have some
conflict.
So I said here's an offering.
You know, instead of trying to,within the moment, navigate
who's running what activity atthe summer camp, why don't you
think about maybe each of youtakes a day and you're the lead
(31:30):
counselor for that day, and myson says I love it, let's do it.
And my daughter's like no, I'mnot doing that.
So I clearly exerted lessinfluence over my daughter than
my son, but I think they alsosaw themselves as having the
opportunity to influence theother sibling and like, how do
(31:50):
we use this moment to convincethe other sibling to try
something different?
And the status quo wasn'tworking for either of them and
some it wasn't.
The status quo wasn't workingfor either of them and so they
had to figure out a way tocompromise, to influence each
other, to come to some differentsolution, and it ended up.
The camp ended beautifully Ravereviews, five out of five stars
(32:14):
.
They're doing it again nextsummer.
J.B> (32:15):
That's awesome.
And what was the what was thefinal verdict on?
On sort of, how did they workit out between them?
Bess (32:21):
Ultimately.
Ultimately, they bought intothe idea that maybe it would
work better if one of them tookthe lead counselor role on any
given day instead of.
You know, that way, my son hadan opportunity to demonstrate
his leadership skills and mydaughter had an opportunity to
kind of sit back a little bitand let things play out, which
is hard for her, I know, doesn'tdoesn't remind me her, I know.
J.B> (32:40):
Doesn't doesn't remind me of anyone I know.
Bess (32:43):
Yeah.
J.B> (32:46):
Apple tree.
Bess (32:47):
Yes, Jamie.
J.B> (32:49):
Bess, where can people keep up with you and connect
with your work?
Bess (32:53):
As far as public schools.
I'm on LinkedIn, I'm onInstagram and this is just an
aside like I do, I am alwayslooking for people to join the
foundation board.
So, you know, I do feel likethat's a place where I can have
influence, but also, people onthe foundation board are in a
position to have a tremendousamount of influence over their
friends and networks, and it'sbeen a really it's been a really
(33:15):
rewarding part of my job.
J.B> (33:22):
And that's the show.
If you like this episode,please share it with your
friends and drop us a rating andreview it while you're at it.
Keep up with us on LinkedIn.
Our Instagram handle is atunseriousfun and our website is
unseriouscom, where you can findall of our previous episodes
and show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Molly (33:45):
It would be like working out in our high heels, running
on the treadmill together, youknow, getting ready for meetings
.
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