August 21, 2025 • 38 mins
In uncertain times, many leaders play it safe: cutting risks, pulling back, and aiming for stability. But what if the better move is to be bold? In our latest Unserious episode, Puck News CEO Sarah Personette reveals how they practice courageous leadership by betting big and speaking up when much of the media world plays it safe by avoiding the line of fire.
We unpack why news still matters, the business Puck is building, and how her team covers a White House that has moved from threatening news organizations to extorting them for cash and silence.
"Courage is a strategy, not a risk. We would all benefit from leading our lives with that perspective." - Sarah Personette
Watch the full video version on YouTube or Spotify.
Follow Sarah on LinkedIn and sign up at Puck.news.
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This is Unserious might contain.
As I began to grasp the meaningof the stories, I started
asking anyone within earshotquestions about Glasnow's
post-war Germany Iran-Contra.
My family was entirelyunprepared for a kid who was so
eager to learn about the world.
It's no wonder that my firstjobs were delivering papers on
(00:39):
my bike around the neighborhood.
More than a few times I'd bebundling papers and get stuck on
a story trying to read throughthe lead.
As I rubberbanded 75 or sopapers, I might be late.
Hopping on my bike, I'd have todeal with some tardy delivery
complaints, but no one in myclass would be as up to speed on
the events of the morning as me.
So it makes me more than alittle sad that one of my coping
(01:02):
mechanisms for dealing withthis year has been to avoid most
news, especially the kinddesigned to spike my cortisol
and trigger a strong reaction.
One of the bright spots in thismorass is puck news, which is a
sort of cooperative effort ofsome of the wisest voices in
news, politics, business, mediaand culture.
(01:22):
I'm JB Skelton, here with myco-host, molly McMahon.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And our guest today is Sarah Personette, CEO of Puck
, a smart and engaging newsmedia company that thinks of
journalists as the originalinfluencers.
Sarah has been the chiefcustomer officer at Twitter, COO
of Refinery29, and the listgoes on.
She's an advisor, a boardmember, an all-around star.
(01:49):
Welcome, Sarah, to the pod.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Thank you, jb and Molly.
It is an absolute pleasure tobe here, and I didn't know that
about you, jb, that your firstjob was delivering papers.
How cool.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, I was the old school paper boy.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Sarah, let's talk about what makes Puck unique.
Unlike other media companieslike BuzzFeed or Mashable, puck
isn't just a website you visit.
It's primarily asubscription-based newsletter
written by the journalists andcreators that your audience
already follows and really loves.
So I'm curious what inspiredthis model and how do you see
(02:27):
this as a key differentiator forPuck?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Wonderful question.
So let me use you, matt, for asecond.
You guys hit on this a littlebit, but I think what's unique
about Puck is that it offerssort of this story behind the
story about the most importantdecision makers in America, the
most important companies inAmerica, delivered to the most
powerful people in America.
And JB you hit on this a littlebit.
(02:53):
Our talent roster is just thesetruly generationally talented
group of authors.
You have Matt Bellany, whocovers all of the entertainment
industry for us.
You have Dylan Byers, whocovers all of media.
Bill Cohan, who was a formerinvestment banker, covers all of
Wall Street and finance content.
We have Lauren Sherman.
(03:14):
If you're in the fashionbusiness, like in the political
space, we have Leanne Caldwell.
We have John Heilman.
So just truly, truly talentedauthors and writers that go deep
in each of these categories.
The other part of it is that wetend to write about where these
power corridors intersect.
There's actually so muchconvergence that happens across
(03:40):
each of these industries andalso a lot of convergence that
happens across leadership, andso you might be reading Bill
Cohen and he's talking aboutwhat's happening with Saks Fifth
Avenue and how they're doing adebt restructuring, and then
you'll come at it from readingLauren Sherman's newsletter line
sheet, which is a part of Puck,and she'll come at the story
(04:04):
around Saks in a totallydifferent way.
So I think the credibility withwhich they write, the depth
with which they write, is reallyinteresting to our subscribers.
That gives you a littlebackdrop on what Puck is.
But I think what you were tryingto get to is the actual
business model of Puck.
(04:25):
That's different from legacymedia and or digital media
companies the digital darlingsthat grew up in the 2010s.
As you mentioned, we are asubscription-based business and
we primarily deliver throughnewsletters.
(04:47):
So Lauren with Linesheet justto take that as an example all
of our fashion coverage shedelivers a newsletter to your
inbox.
That's very deep coverage ofwhat's happening in the fashion
business.
If you want to interact withher, all you have to do is reply
, and so we've kind of brokenthat fourth wall and created
(05:07):
this really interesting intimacyand conversation between
authors and readers and theother part that's unique about
this business model and thisreally comes from John Kelly,
who is the founder and the chiefcontent officer of Puck overall
.
You know, going back over thelast decade, there's basically
(05:31):
been this massive rift betweenhow journalists were treated in
legacy media companies.
More often than not, if therewas a layoff happening or cost
cutting happening, the peoplewho first were impacted usually
were the journalists.
But JB and I worked at andMicah worked at Facebook for a
(05:54):
very long period of time and thesort of like heroes and the
creators inside of that companyare the product and engineers.
Yep, and that's who thejournalists are Like.
They are the product andengineers and that's who the
journalists are.
They are the people making theproduct right, and so we sort of
flipped this on its head.
John flipped it on its head andsaid we want every individual,
(06:16):
every employee, as a part ofPuck, but in particular, the
journalists.
All have equity inside of thecompany.
They're all owners.
This is a talent-ledorganization where we put the
needs of the journalists at theforefront of how we operate the
(06:38):
collective business as a whole,and that, I think, also is very
unique to POC relative to otherbusinesses out there.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I know you come from a background in customer
experience.
When you're problem solving for, like this ever-changing
landscape of you know, the mediaworld that we're in today are
you thinking about?
Do you problem solve from thelens of, like, the reader, or
are you problem solving from thelens of the creator or the
journalist?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's a Really interesting question.
I don't think that you cancreate a product that is a void
of the voice of the customer.
Yeah, I think, coming into thisorganization with a long
history of working at techcompanies, that is one of the
things that I am very squarelyfocused on, and the voice of the
(07:26):
customer and the customerexperience extends from the
content that's being developedand the stories that are being
told and the coverage that we'reoffering.
This is why we continue tointroduce new categories and
expand coverage across thefranchises that make up our
portfolio.
But, at the same time, thebeing talent first and
(07:54):
creator-led means that you they,you give the freedom to the
authors to really explore thestories that they want to
explore, and which is differentfrom historical models where
they're like assignment editorsand you have to write this and
only this.
(08:15):
John, when he started thiscompany, he is the.
The reason why we have thesejust incredible stable of anchor
authors is because they allwere looking for that freedom to
chase the stories and tell thestories the way they wanted to
(08:36):
tell them, and so you maintainthe balance, like you're not
trading off customer experienceand a talent first organization.
I think that it being talentfirst, and giving that freedom
around authorship actually makesthe product better, which is
(08:57):
why it's interesting to ourreaders and our subscribers.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I hear talent first and I hear creator centered and
my shoulders drop like nineinches.
It's like so refreshing and Ican see that being like a driver
of like this, like awesomecustomer readership experience
and even hearing about thatintimacy and that ability to
have that dialogue with yourauthors, is pretty, it's pretty
remarkable.
I'm curious.
Pretty it's pretty remarkable.
(09:22):
I'm curious like how do you?
Is this a model that's easy toscale?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
yeah, so just to put some numbers around it, I think,
in in terms of scale, oursubscriber base grew 30 year
over a year in the last year and, um, from a revenue perspective
, we grew 50% year over year,and that's made up of subscriber
revenue as well as advertisingrevenue.
We have an incredible roster ofadvertisers and clients that
(09:58):
also leverage Puck in order toget in front of the elite
audiences that subscribe to theproduct overall.
So I think about scale, thoughprobably in two ways.
I think there's how you scalethe collective unit that is puck
, and then there is and some ofthat is going to happen by going
(10:24):
deeper in each of thesecategories or industries that we
are in, and our subscriber basetends to be more of the
professionals in theseindustries, and so your TAM,
your total addressable market,goes deeper into those
professional categories.
And then it's also how youexpand outwards, and we last
(10:49):
year introduced the business ofart with wall power.
We acquired a gentleman by thename of Marian Maniker who is
just on.
I mean he is top of the class.
I did not know a lot about theart world or art markets before.
I mean I really didn't know, andI have said this to him often.
(11:12):
I'm like tell me more.
Who is this person and how do Ithink about this marketplace?
And he is so knowledgeable andso he.
(11:32):
He acts as as both you knowauthor and advisor to that world
and convener.
So like we are introducing um,our new um temple is called art
of the influence.
It's happening in september andit's sort of like the davos for
the art world.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
That's so cool.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, it's really, really interesting.
It's a super intimate summitand this is where it becomes
really interesting andcreator-led sort of talent.
First, that started with anucleus of an idea that's
talking about, like what wouldthe conversation look like if we
had these people in the room?
Yeah, look like if we had thesepeople in the room, and so
scale to get back to youroriginal question looks like
(12:15):
adding on categories with thetone of voice and the
perspective and the depth ofanalysis that we provide.
And then it also is going kindof deeper into the individual,
like niche professionalaudiences that we're serving.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I really love this idea of these intersections
around these different powercorridors and how you can really
leverage that, because I thinkthat's also the spark of
innovation.
That's how you stay agile,that's how you stay adaptive,
and this is just such adifferent model for news.
Sarah, welcome to Hire FireBoss.
(12:53):
It's a quick fire game where wegive our guests a fictional
scenario and three characters.
You've got to hire one fire oneand one will be your boss.
And for our fictional scenario,the task at hand is Puck is
opening coverage into a new arealocal news.
(13:16):
Your team that you can selectfrom it's a powerhouse crew.
We've got first Diane Sawyer,formerly of ABC News and Good
Morning America.
She's Grace Under Pressure,would dismantle a scandal with a
perfectly timed pause and araised eyebrow.
We also have for you yourpotential team, michael Barbaro
(13:38):
from the New York Times and hostof the Daily Podcast.
He speaks in that perfectpodcast cadence.
Every conversation feels likeit's being archived by the
Library of Congress.
And last we have KatherineGraham, former publisher of the
Washington Post.
She is ice in her veins, truthin her paper, built an empire
(14:01):
while surrounded by men whounderestimated her.
That is your dream team foropening up new coverage for Puck
, any thoughts on who you wouldhire, who you would fire and who
you'd select as your boss?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
I think I'd have Catherine Graham as my boss.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah.
So I believe in the saying thatwe are too good not to be
better, and that's just a way ofconstantly increasing
performance, celebrating thesuccesses, but always thinking
about what we can learn andwhere we can go from there in
life and in a professionalsetting.
(14:41):
And I think she would challengethat every single day, like,
how do you wake up every singleday and think anew of what can
we do differently?
Yeah, I think I would.
I'm just looking, I wrote downall three.
I think I would fire DianeSawyer, which I never would have
said that growing up.
I mean, this is a.
(15:03):
You've given me a lot of powerand authority here, but I'm
gonna go with firing, DianeSawyer, and then I think I would
what is it?
Hire fire.
I would hire Michael.
I think you know he reallyunderstands the world of new
media and at the same time, Ithink he's very methodical.
(15:25):
He is extremely, you know,trusted as a new source, and so
if you're opening up newcoverage and you're opening up a
new business unit, I think youwant someone that's that's
really, you know, running it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
From that perspective , I also never thought I would
fire Diane Sawyer, but she'sgoing to be just fine, she's
going to be good.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
She's going to be good, she's going to be
absolutely fine.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I think that we're.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I'm totally aligned with you on this one, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
We do.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Diane is just not.
She's not a local news gal andlike and actually Catherine
Graham was.
The Post, in addition to beinga national paper, was a local
paper and continues to be, and Ithink Michael Bavaro can cover
local stories.
So I think I just don't seeDiane being interested in the
(16:20):
subject.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think that's really fair.
I also would, and I do thinkthat you can constantly learn
and evolve, but the other twohave, and I'm sure in her career
once she went through, therewere many moments of transition
and change.
But I think for this currentenvironment, if you were opening
(16:41):
up a new organization focusedon local news, you'd have to
operate it completelydifferently than the way that it
was operated in the past.
You'd have to be thinking aboutvery new systems, very new
structures, very new anglesaround stories and then how you
do it efficiently for scale, andthat's just a different skill
set that I'm not sure if Dianehas Again never thought I would
(17:04):
be firing her, but yeah, it's sointeresting this is a great
game.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I mean with all of us .
Board approved all of yourhiring decisions.
Way to go, sarah.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Thank you, I appreciate that we're good to go
the game.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I want to zoom out a little bit because, you know, I
think the experience that Italked about at the beginning of
kind of limiting my news intake, is not uncommon, and it's not
just because we're ostriches,it's because it really feels
like self-preservation.
So I'd love for you to give methe elevator pitch.
(17:50):
Why should people be engagingwith the news right now?
Why should we be tuning in?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, let me take it from a consumer sentiment
perspective first, and then I'mgoing to break news into micro
topics.
But I think what you're gettingat is.
There's been this world of likedoom, scrolling and
polarization that has beengrowing as a result of
(18:21):
distribution platforms and aswell as in order to get scale.
I think some folks in the worldof news and, in particular, in
the world of political coverageand I don't want to put words in
your mouth, but part of it canbe around political coverage
(18:43):
that's happened and beenreported on, and so I think,
with the and it's not justAmerican political coverage.
No, it's not, but I think thetendencies of what has happened
with the polarization of news,with talent feeling like, and
journalists feeling like theyhave to take a really hardcore
(19:05):
stance in order to get thatreader or that watcher or that
listener, and then the way thatthese things are sort of
technically distributed to you,has absolutely changed the news
diet and news consumption forpeople.
(19:25):
The research just would suggestthat.
I think, though, why you leanin.
Well, there are a couple ofdifferent things, I think, first
and foremost, at least againfor Puck.
Puck helps you.
One of the key metrics, likebrand attributes, that we
measure is Puck helps me to domy job.
(19:48):
So if you're in theentertainment and the media
space and you don't know what'shappening with Warner Brothers
Discovery, like you, you can't.
Like you can't do your jobsuccessfully.
And the same thing in thefashion space if you don't know
what's happening with sex, thenthat you can't.
You can't do your jobsuccessfully if, in the world of
(20:10):
art, if you're not trackingwith what's happening more
broadly in the marketplace andwhat happened in the high season
when May closed out, and whichpieces sold, why and where the
tendency is going as an artadvisor in that space, as a
professional advisor, you can'tserve your clients right.
(20:31):
So so we're fulfilling a newsaround things and information,
almost like knowledge work forprofessionals in these
categories.
And then, because of, like, howthis is you know this is so
much due to John and the authorsthat lead these different
(20:54):
franchises because of the toneof voice, it's also a little bit
fun, it's a little bit dishy,and yet you're also feeling like
you walk away, feeling veryeducated each day, and so you
might cross over, I might be inthe entertainment space, but
actually there's stuff thatLauren's writing about that I
just find to be personallyinteresting, and so we
(21:17):
capitalize, I think, a lot onthat just cross-pollinization of
interest around information inthese categories.
No-transcript of what'shappening in DC.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
How are?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
decisions being made in Congress.
Why is it important that thatpiece of legislation was up?
What are the relationshipdynamics?
I forgot to mention Julia Yaffe.
Like, Julia Yaffe just wrote apiece on Marco Rubio that gets
at what's happening inside ofthe agencies and what means like
(22:20):
what has transformed over thecourse of the last year and, you
know, since this newadministration took root in
January, relative to his pastrole and then sort of what the
future state is.
So it's less about a politicalcommentary.
(22:41):
It's not about are you on theright side or the left side.
It's about reporting on whatactually is happening.
Reporting on what actually ishappening and instead of other
news organizations, at times noteveryone, but at different
instances have looked at newsand information as the ability
(23:03):
to gatekeep that information.
And I think what we do at Puckand what our authors and editors
do is guide people and likepeeping versus guiding is like
maybe what allows people not toput their head in the sands,
because we're not trying toconvince you of an opinion that
(23:25):
you need to have, we're justsharing with you.
Hey, here's sort of the insideconversation, the last mile of
what's happening in this story.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
So how do we go about being well-informed without
being overwhelmed?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Well, a few things I would think about there.
One, I think you have to askyourself personally what is the
thing that you want to beinformed on?
Well, actually, no, let mestart with this Number one
subscribe to Puck Done thatshould have been my first answer
.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I don't know why that wasn't.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And so then, the second thing I would say is like
, what do you need to beinformed on?
You know I think JV, you'veheard me say this in our, the
master of your own educationthere are so many resources
available to us to.
There have been and therecontinue to be even more.
There are so many resources onthat.
(24:41):
If you want to be informed onthe current events of what's
happening today in a market, Ithink there is that that's
particularly relevant.
And then there's certainly ontrend dynamics, like what's
happening in trends.
Again, I take it a little bitmore from a political slant
versus a consumer slant, but Ithink there are so many
different resources there andyou do have to look at your like
.
We're actually to share thisfor a second.
(25:02):
You know, we now have so manydifferent categories that have
really interesting content.
We're starting to work throughwhat does personalization and
recommendations look like forour end customers and
subscribers?
Because if you have opted in tofive of our different
(25:25):
franchises or five of ourdifferent categories, that could
feel overwhelming, that couldfeel like wow, what do I do with
all this content?
And so what we always try to dois make sure that every piece
of content.
You know every newsletterthat's sent really adds value
and adds meaning and is tellingthat deeper story.
(25:46):
But then the second piece thatwe're really getting to is how
do we help guide people on whatthat best experience looks like
based on their engagement?
So I think that's a little bitof the role of the publisher,
but I think there's no reasonwhy you as an individual, or any
(26:06):
of us as individuals, shouldn'tgo through that same exercise
and really ask ourselves, like,what are again, what are we
trying to be informed about?
And then what are the thingsthat you sort of can, can you
know, offload because they'renot going to, they're not going
to help you?
Um, either, maybe not feelinformed, not feel good, like
(26:29):
there's a whole bunch of likethe emotional calculus that also
goes into it.
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The current political climate has definitely posed a
lot of challenges to mediacompanies, and we've seen
examples of the White Housereally taking difficult
positions with, to say the least, with CBS, abc News, the
(27:07):
Washington Post, abc News, theWashington Post, and
particularly with the SherryRedstone incident a couple weeks
ago.
I heard Bill Cohen reallytalking about this very, very
baldly as extortion.
How do you, as a CEO, balancethe boldness and courage of your
(27:31):
reporters with the need toprotect your business?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's a good question.
Well, I would start by um.
Come to Puck and stay at Puckis because they do feel like
they have our support to sharethe stories and the perspective
that that they care about Um,and, and we take that really,
(28:23):
really seriously, and so that'swhy Bill will share what he
shares.
That's why you know, lauradoesn't tend to get into
politics, but Laura will sharewhat she needs to share you know
, so on and so forth.
It covers a lot of different, Ithink, leaders and topics.
In terms of balancing yourbusiness.
(28:47):
We are a well Bill might havemade a comment like that as a
company.
We are a nonpartisan company,we do not have an affiliation in
either way and also on ourpolitical coverage.
It is why we really get intothe again.
(29:11):
I know I already said this, butthe business of what's happening
on K Street, the business ofwhat's happening inside of these
agencies, the coverage aroundwhat's happening with there's
been, sadly, a lot of differentwars that have broken out in the
last, you know, two yearsbetween Russia and Ukraine and
(29:32):
the current conflict betweenIsrael and Iran.
You know we're trying to reporton the background story of
what's happening inside of thecalculus of the leaders that are
making those decisions, andthat's not right or left.
(29:54):
It's actually more like thoughtleadership and I think it's
important when you have thislevel of talent inside of an
organization, that they feellike they can really truly bring
that thought leadership to thetable.
And you're talking about itfrom the angle of politics.
(30:16):
But let me take it to theentertainment category for a
second.
Like Matt writes about thecompanies that also, you know,
advertise alongside us.
That are some of our closestcustomers and some of our most
loyal customers.
And he's, you know, he'sreporting on the dynamics of
(30:37):
what are happening in thatindustry and there's like real
church and state between thosetwo things.
And he knows that and ourcustomers know that we
introduced an event that heanchored, called the stories of
the season around Oscars, andthen did the second one around
Emmys.
Those events are not pay toplay.
(31:00):
When we're bringing thenominees up, he is choosing them
.
It is entirely editoriallycurated experience.
And yet we have incrediblesponsors, both endemic and
non-endemic.
On the endemic side, they'rethere because they know that
most other things are pay toplay and there is like a
(31:21):
realness to this and a deeperconversation as a result of Matt
having that freedom to do that.
So it's probably just a valuesbased question on how we handle
it today.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Sarah Puck is all about human connection and that
relationship between yourjournalists and the subscribers,
which is so refreshing.
With AI becoming such a bigtopic and, in many cases, the
only topic, how do you see therole of generative AI in your
work, in your journalists' work,and what are the conversations
you're having with your team tokeep that talent centeredness at
(32:02):
Puck?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Our approach is talent first, ai ready.
Anyone who believes that AI isnot going to transform or
disrupt the industry that theywork in just needs to get on the
boat and start reading Ian'swork if they don't think that.
(32:27):
But I think there's probablytwo component parts to it.
There is what AI is doing tocontent creators and publishers
in terms of really scrollingthat content and then training
their models.
So there's a whole thing around.
(32:47):
How do you, I think, protect,measure and then monetize your
content effectively with what'shappening more broadly with some
of these open platforms?
And then there is the impactthat's having on referral
traffic and discovery, and youknow, so there's we're moving to
(33:08):
this like no click world,search engines becoming answer
engines, all of that kind ofstuff.
Those are problems that we, aspublishers, need to need to
solve, and those are problemsthat anyone who has any type of
online based business needs tosolve, and those are problems
that anyone who has any type ofonline-based business needs to
solve today.
And then there's the third part, which is workflow.
How do we embrace theseincredible technical solutions
(33:33):
that allow us to be a lot moreefficient and effective in the
way that we work?
So let me start from that side,which is probably the easiest
one.
In that respect, we are verylucky to run a very lean
organization.
We manage it based on ouroverall revenue per head.
(33:56):
That enables us basically tonot over bloat certain parts of
the organization.
What are the systems, solutionsand processes that are AI
enabled that can make ourworkflow that much more
efficient, and how do weimplement that?
And so that's a little bit onthe workflow side.
In order to do that, you dohave to have, like, very clear
(34:19):
print operating principles onhow you leverage these
technologies, so we're alsoworking through all of that
because the the like there getsto be some ethical components to
it, most importantly, though,being talent first, our writers
are always going to write.
It will always be their words,their language, their story,
(34:45):
their relationship, theirconvening power, and that is
what no AI solution can actuallyreplicate.
They might be able to replicateother things, but they can't
replicate that Um.
Then, if I go to the, to theleft side, um, there's this is.
This is where I thinkdisruption gets really exciting.
(35:06):
What a privilege that we get tolive through this disruptive
time and lead through thisdisruptive time.
You know we we've gone throughthis with um, the, the migration
to digital.
We've gone through this withmigration to mobile.
We've gone through this withlike social.
I remember sitting with clientsand they were like nobody's
ever going to watch a video ontheir phone.
And yet here we are and allthese things are pervasive and
(35:31):
ideally you were in a team or anenvironment at that time that
gave you the safe space to takerisks.
That is what I'm trying to doinside of our company.
What John's trying to do insideof our company is like we're
learning and iterating as thesethings are happening.
But at the same time, Iabsolutely know that 12 months
(35:54):
or 18 months from now, we'regoing to have rewritten the
playbook Developers.
They will see opportunities inthis disruption and they will
bring a whole new suite of tools.
And then the last part, whichis around like monetization and
you know access to IP and youknow just legally whether or not
that feels good or doesn't feelgood and how you work there.
(36:17):
We're really small relative tolike the New York Times and the
Wall Street Journal and thingslike that.
They're going to be the leadersin that space, helping to fight
the good fight, I think, forsome of the smaller publishers
and I really appreciate andrespect that.
We did the same thing on thelike in past lives with the
(36:42):
Facebooks and the Twitters ofthe world.
For Twitter, we took a lot ofdifferent stances that helped to
support other digital providersthat were much smaller, and you
do that because you're a partof an ecosystem and an industry
and this is not a zero-sum gameAll boats can actually rise, but
(37:02):
at the same time, we'remeasuring and we're monitoring
and we're protecting the content, and all of our stuff sits
behind a paywall and so you knowthere's.
You can't be blind to thesethings, and you also need to
understand where you put yourenergy and your emphasis in
order to succeed over the longterm.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Sarah, we could go on and on, but we are out of time.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Listeners, if you want to learnmore, the website is pucknews.
Go, sign up for your freeaccount and start getting
quality reporting delivereddirectly to your inbox.
Sarah, where can people keep upwith you and connect with you?
Speaker 3 (37:45):
LinkedIn is probably the best.
I tend not to be on many othersocial platforms.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's fine.
Personette, yeah, personette,like I always like to say,
personette, like a little person.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Like a little person, and yet I'm really tall.
It's quite ironic.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
And that's the show.
Unserious is produced by MicahVono.
Special thanks to our guest,sarah Personette.
If you have any questions orideas for future episodes, drop
us a line at hello atunseriouscom, and you can keep
up with us on LinkedIn, onInstagram at unseriousfun, or
our website at Siriuscom.
At Unserious, we make work.
Play no-transcript.
This is Unserious might contain.
As I began to grasp the meaningof the stories, I started
asking anyone within earshotquestions about Glasnow's
post-war Germany Iran-Contra.
My family was entirelyunprepared for a kid who was so
eager to learn about the world.
It's no wonder that my firstjobs were delivering papers on
(00:39):
my bike around the neighborhood.
More than a few times I'd bebundling papers and get stuck on
a story trying to read throughthe lead.
As I rubberbanded 75 or sopapers, I might be late.
Hopping on my bike, I'd have todeal with some tardy delivery
complaints, but no one in myclass would be as up to speed on
the events of the morning as me.
So it makes me more than alittle sad that one of my coping
(01:02):
mechanisms for dealing withthis year has been to avoid most
news, especially the kinddesigned to spike my cortisol
and trigger a strong reaction.
One of the bright spots in thismorass is puck news, which is a
sort of cooperative effort ofsome of the wisest voices in
news, politics, business, mediaand culture.
(01:22):
I'm JB Skelton, here with myco-host, molly McMahon.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And our guest today is Sarah Personette, CEO of Puck
, a smart and engaging newsmedia company that thinks of
journalists as the originalinfluencers.
Sarah has been the chiefcustomer officer at Twitter, COO
of Refinery29, and the listgoes on.
She's an advisor, a boardmember, an all-around star.
(01:49):
Welcome, Sarah, to the pod.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Thank you, jb and Molly.
It is an absolute pleasure tobe here, and I didn't know that
about you, jb, that your firstjob was delivering papers.
How cool.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, I was the old school paper boy.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Sarah, let's talk about what makes Puck unique.
Unlike other media companieslike BuzzFeed or Mashable, puck
isn't just a website you visit.
It's primarily asubscription-based newsletter
written by the journalists andcreators that your audience
already follows and really loves.
So I'm curious what inspiredthis model and how do you see
(02:27):
this as a key differentiator forPuck?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Wonderful question.
So let me use you, matt, for asecond.
You guys hit on this a littlebit, but I think what's unique
about Puck is that it offerssort of this story behind the
story about the most importantdecision makers in America, the
most important companies inAmerica, delivered to the most
powerful people in America.
And JB you hit on this a littlebit.
(02:53):
Our talent roster is just thesetruly generationally talented
group of authors.
You have Matt Bellany, whocovers all of the entertainment
industry for us.
You have Dylan Byers, whocovers all of media.
Bill Cohan, who was a formerinvestment banker, covers all of
Wall Street and finance content.
We have Lauren Sherman.
(03:14):
If you're in the fashionbusiness, like in the political
space, we have Leanne Caldwell.
We have John Heilman.
So just truly, truly talentedauthors and writers that go deep
in each of these categories.
The other part of it is that wetend to write about where these
power corridors intersect.
There's actually so muchconvergence that happens across
(03:40):
each of these industries andalso a lot of convergence that
happens across leadership, andso you might be reading Bill
Cohen and he's talking aboutwhat's happening with Saks Fifth
Avenue and how they're doing adebt restructuring, and then
you'll come at it from readingLauren Sherman's newsletter line
sheet, which is a part of Puck,and she'll come at the story
(04:04):
around Saks in a totallydifferent way.
So I think the credibility withwhich they write, the depth
with which they write, is reallyinteresting to our subscribers.
That gives you a littlebackdrop on what Puck is.
But I think what you were tryingto get to is the actual
business model of Puck.
(04:25):
That's different from legacymedia and or digital media
companies the digital darlingsthat grew up in the 2010s.
As you mentioned, we are asubscription-based business and
we primarily deliver throughnewsletters.
(04:47):
So Lauren with Linesheet justto take that as an example all
of our fashion coverage shedelivers a newsletter to your
inbox.
That's very deep coverage ofwhat's happening in the fashion
business.
If you want to interact withher, all you have to do is reply
, and so we've kind of brokenthat fourth wall and created
(05:07):
this really interesting intimacyand conversation between
authors and readers and theother part that's unique about
this business model and thisreally comes from John Kelly,
who is the founder and the chiefcontent officer of Puck overall
.
You know, going back over thelast decade, there's basically
(05:31):
been this massive rift betweenhow journalists were treated in
legacy media companies.
More often than not, if therewas a layoff happening or cost
cutting happening, the peoplewho first were impacted usually
were the journalists.
But JB and I worked at andMicah worked at Facebook for a
(05:54):
very long period of time and thesort of like heroes and the
creators inside of that companyare the product and engineers.
Yep, and that's who thejournalists are Like.
They are the product andengineers and that's who the
journalists are.
They are the people making theproduct right, and so we sort of
flipped this on its head.
John flipped it on its head andsaid we want every individual,
(06:16):
every employee, as a part ofPuck, but in particular, the
journalists.
All have equity inside of thecompany.
They're all owners.
This is a talent-ledorganization where we put the
needs of the journalists at theforefront of how we operate the
(06:38):
collective business as a whole,and that, I think, also is very
unique to POC relative to otherbusinesses out there.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, I know you come from a background in customer
experience.
When you're problem solving for, like this ever-changing
landscape of you know, the mediaworld that we're in today are
you thinking about?
Do you problem solve from thelens of, like, the reader, or
are you problem solving from thelens of the creator or the
journalist?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's a Really interesting question.
I don't think that you cancreate a product that is a void
of the voice of the customer.
Yeah, I think, coming into thisorganization with a long
history of working at techcompanies, that is one of the
things that I am very squarelyfocused on, and the voice of the
(07:26):
customer and the customerexperience extends from the
content that's being developedand the stories that are being
told and the coverage that we'reoffering.
This is why we continue tointroduce new categories and
expand coverage across thefranchises that make up our
portfolio.
But, at the same time, thebeing talent first and
(07:54):
creator-led means that you they,you give the freedom to the
authors to really explore thestories that they want to
explore, and which is differentfrom historical models where
they're like assignment editorsand you have to write this and
only this.
(08:15):
John, when he started thiscompany, he is the.
The reason why we have thesejust incredible stable of anchor
authors is because they allwere looking for that freedom to
chase the stories and tell thestories the way they wanted to
(08:36):
tell them, and so you maintainthe balance, like you're not
trading off customer experienceand a talent first organization.
I think that it being talentfirst, and giving that freedom
around authorship actually makesthe product better, which is
(08:57):
why it's interesting to ourreaders and our subscribers.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I hear talent first and I hear creator centered and
my shoulders drop like nineinches.
It's like so refreshing and Ican see that being like a driver
of like this, like awesomecustomer readership experience
and even hearing about thatintimacy and that ability to
have that dialogue with yourauthors, is pretty, it's pretty
remarkable.
I'm curious.
Pretty it's pretty remarkable.
(09:22):
I'm curious like how do you?
Is this a model that's easy toscale?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
yeah, so just to put some numbers around it, I think,
in in terms of scale, oursubscriber base grew 30 year
over a year in the last year and, um, from a revenue perspective
, we grew 50% year over year,and that's made up of subscriber
revenue as well as advertisingrevenue.
We have an incredible roster ofadvertisers and clients that
(09:58):
also leverage Puck in order toget in front of the elite
audiences that subscribe to theproduct overall.
So I think about scale, thoughprobably in two ways.
I think there's how you scalethe collective unit that is puck
, and then there is and some ofthat is going to happen by going
(10:24):
deeper in each of thesecategories or industries that we
are in, and our subscriber basetends to be more of the
professionals in theseindustries, and so your TAM,
your total addressable market,goes deeper into those
professional categories.
And then it's also how youexpand outwards, and we last
(10:49):
year introduced the business ofart with wall power.
We acquired a gentleman by thename of Marian Maniker who is
just on.
I mean he is top of the class.
I did not know a lot about theart world or art markets before.
I mean I really didn't know, andI have said this to him often.
(11:12):
I'm like tell me more.
Who is this person and how do Ithink about this marketplace?
And he is so knowledgeable andso he.
(11:32):
He acts as as both you knowauthor and advisor to that world
and convener.
So like we are introducing um,our new um temple is called art
of the influence.
It's happening in september andit's sort of like the davos for
the art world.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
That's so cool.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, it's really, really interesting.
It's a super intimate summitand this is where it becomes
really interesting andcreator-led sort of talent.
First, that started with anucleus of an idea that's
talking about, like what wouldthe conversation look like if we
had these people in the room?
Yeah, look like if we had thesepeople in the room, and so
scale to get back to youroriginal question looks like
(12:15):
adding on categories with thetone of voice and the
perspective and the depth ofanalysis that we provide.
And then it also is going kindof deeper into the individual,
like niche professionalaudiences that we're serving.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I really love this idea of these intersections
around these different powercorridors and how you can really
leverage that, because I thinkthat's also the spark of
innovation.
That's how you stay agile,that's how you stay adaptive,
and this is just such adifferent model for news.
Sarah, welcome to Hire FireBoss.
(12:53):
It's a quick fire game where wegive our guests a fictional
scenario and three characters.
You've got to hire one fire oneand one will be your boss.
And for our fictional scenario,the task at hand is Puck is
opening coverage into a new arealocal news.
(13:16):
Your team that you can selectfrom it's a powerhouse crew.
We've got first Diane Sawyer,formerly of ABC News and Good
Morning America.
She's Grace Under Pressure,would dismantle a scandal with a
perfectly timed pause and araised eyebrow.
We also have for you yourpotential team, michael Barbaro
(13:38):
from the New York Times and hostof the Daily Podcast.
He speaks in that perfectpodcast cadence.
Every conversation feels likeit's being archived by the
Library of Congress.
And last we have KatherineGraham, former publisher of the
Washington Post.
She is ice in her veins, truthin her paper, built an empire
(14:01):
while surrounded by men whounderestimated her.
That is your dream team foropening up new coverage for Puck
, any thoughts on who you wouldhire, who you would fire and who
you'd select as your boss?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
I think I'd have Catherine Graham as my boss.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah.
So I believe in the saying thatwe are too good not to be
better, and that's just a way ofconstantly increasing
performance, celebrating thesuccesses, but always thinking
about what we can learn andwhere we can go from there in
life and in a professionalsetting.
(14:41):
And I think she would challengethat every single day, like,
how do you wake up every singleday and think anew of what can
we do differently?
Yeah, I think I would.
I'm just looking, I wrote downall three.
I think I would fire DianeSawyer, which I never would have
said that growing up.
I mean, this is a.
(15:03):
You've given me a lot of powerand authority here, but I'm
gonna go with firing, DianeSawyer, and then I think I would
what is it?
Hire fire.
I would hire Michael.
I think you know he reallyunderstands the world of new
media and at the same time, Ithink he's very methodical.
(15:25):
He is extremely, you know,trusted as a new source, and so
if you're opening up newcoverage and you're opening up a
new business unit, I think youwant someone that's that's
really, you know, running it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
From that perspective , I also never thought I would
fire Diane Sawyer, but she'sgoing to be just fine, she's
going to be good.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
She's going to be good, she's going to be
absolutely fine.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I think that we're.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I'm totally aligned with you on this one, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
We do.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Diane is just not.
She's not a local news gal andlike and actually Catherine
Graham was.
The Post, in addition to beinga national paper, was a local
paper and continues to be, and Ithink Michael Bavaro can cover
local stories.
So I think I just don't seeDiane being interested in the
(16:20):
subject.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think that's really fair.
I also would, and I do thinkthat you can constantly learn
and evolve, but the other twohave, and I'm sure in her career
once she went through, therewere many moments of transition
and change.
But I think for this currentenvironment, if you were opening
(16:41):
up a new organization focusedon local news, you'd have to
operate it completelydifferently than the way that it
was operated in the past.
You'd have to be thinking aboutvery new systems, very new
structures, very new anglesaround stories and then how you
do it efficiently for scale, andthat's just a different skill
set that I'm not sure if Dianehas Again never thought I would
(17:04):
be firing her, but yeah, it's sointeresting this is a great
game.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
I mean with all of us .
Board approved all of yourhiring decisions.
Way to go, sarah.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Thank you, I appreciate that we're good to go
the game.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I want to zoom out a little bit because, you know, I
think the experience that Italked about at the beginning of
kind of limiting my news intake, is not uncommon, and it's not
just because we're ostriches,it's because it really feels
like self-preservation.
So I'd love for you to give methe elevator pitch.
(17:50):
Why should people be engagingwith the news right now?
Why should we be tuning in?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, let me take it from a consumer sentiment
perspective first, and then I'mgoing to break news into micro
topics.
But I think what you're gettingat is.
There's been this world of likedoom, scrolling and
polarization that has beengrowing as a result of
(18:21):
distribution platforms and aswell as in order to get scale.
I think some folks in the worldof news and, in particular, in
the world of political coverageand I don't want to put words in
your mouth, but part of it canbe around political coverage
(18:43):
that's happened and beenreported on, and so I think,
with the and it's not justAmerican political coverage.
No, it's not, but I think thetendencies of what has happened
with the polarization of news,with talent feeling like, and
journalists feeling like theyhave to take a really hardcore
(19:05):
stance in order to get thatreader or that watcher or that
listener, and then the way thatthese things are sort of
technically distributed to you,has absolutely changed the news
diet and news consumption forpeople.
(19:25):
The research just would suggestthat.
I think, though, why you leanin.
Well, there are a couple ofdifferent things, I think, first
and foremost, at least againfor Puck.
Puck helps you.
One of the key metrics, likebrand attributes, that we
measure is Puck helps me to domy job.
(19:48):
So if you're in theentertainment and the media
space and you don't know what'shappening with Warner Brothers
Discovery, like you, you can't.
Like you can't do your jobsuccessfully.
And the same thing in thefashion space if you don't know
what's happening with sex, thenthat you can't.
You can't do your jobsuccessfully if, in the world of
(20:10):
art, if you're not trackingwith what's happening more
broadly in the marketplace andwhat happened in the high season
when May closed out, and whichpieces sold, why and where the
tendency is going as an artadvisor in that space, as a
professional advisor, you can'tserve your clients right.
(20:31):
So so we're fulfilling a newsaround things and information,
almost like knowledge work forprofessionals in these
categories.
And then, because of, like, howthis is you know this is so
much due to John and the authorsthat lead these different
(20:54):
franchises because of the toneof voice, it's also a little bit
fun, it's a little bit dishy,and yet you're also feeling like
you walk away, feeling veryeducated each day, and so you
might cross over, I might be inthe entertainment space, but
actually there's stuff thatLauren's writing about that I
just find to be personallyinteresting, and so we
(21:17):
capitalize, I think, a lot onthat just cross-pollinization of
interest around information inthese categories.
No-transcript of what'shappening in DC.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
How are?
Speaker 3 (22:00):
decisions being made in Congress.
Why is it important that thatpiece of legislation was up?
What are the relationshipdynamics?
I forgot to mention Julia Yaffe.
Like, Julia Yaffe just wrote apiece on Marco Rubio that gets
at what's happening inside ofthe agencies and what means like
(22:20):
what has transformed over thecourse of the last year and, you
know, since this newadministration took root in
January, relative to his pastrole and then sort of what the
future state is.
So it's less about a politicalcommentary.
(22:41):
It's not about are you on theright side or the left side.
It's about reporting on whatactually is happening.
Reporting on what actually ishappening and instead of other
news organizations, at times noteveryone, but at different
instances have looked at newsand information as the ability
(23:03):
to gatekeep that information.
And I think what we do at Puckand what our authors and editors
do is guide people and likepeeping versus guiding is like
maybe what allows people not toput their head in the sands,
because we're not trying toconvince you of an opinion that
(23:25):
you need to have, we're justsharing with you.
Hey, here's sort of the insideconversation, the last mile of
what's happening in this story.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
So how do we go about being well-informed without
being overwhelmed?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Well, a few things I would think about there.
One, I think you have to askyourself personally what is the
thing that you want to beinformed on?
Well, actually, no, let mestart with this Number one
subscribe to Puck Done thatshould have been my first answer
.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I don't know why that wasn't.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And so then, the second thing I would say is like
, what do you need to beinformed on?
You know I think JV, you'veheard me say this in our, the
master of your own educationthere are so many resources
available to us to.
There have been and therecontinue to be even more.
There are so many resources onthat.
(24:41):
If you want to be informed onthe current events of what's
happening today in a market, Ithink there is that that's
particularly relevant.
And then there's certainly ontrend dynamics, like what's
happening in trends.
Again, I take it a little bitmore from a political slant
versus a consumer slant, but Ithink there are so many
different resources there andyou do have to look at your like
.
We're actually to share thisfor a second.
(25:02):
You know, we now have so manydifferent categories that have
really interesting content.
We're starting to work throughwhat does personalization and
recommendations look like forour end customers and
subscribers?
Because if you have opted in tofive of our different
(25:25):
franchises or five of ourdifferent categories, that could
feel overwhelming, that couldfeel like wow, what do I do with
all this content?
And so what we always try to dois make sure that every piece
of content.
You know every newsletterthat's sent really adds value
and adds meaning and is tellingthat deeper story.
(25:46):
But then the second piece thatwe're really getting to is how
do we help guide people on whatthat best experience looks like
based on their engagement?
So I think that's a little bitof the role of the publisher,
but I think there's no reasonwhy you as an individual, or any
(26:06):
of us as individuals, shouldn'tgo through that same exercise
and really ask ourselves, like,what are again, what are we
trying to be informed about?
And then what are the thingsthat you sort of can, can you
know, offload because they'renot going to, they're not going
to help you?
Um, either, maybe not feelinformed, not feel good, like
(26:29):
there's a whole bunch of likethe emotional calculus that also
goes into it.
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
The current political climate has definitely posed a
lot of challenges to mediacompanies, and we've seen
examples of the White Housereally taking difficult
positions with, to say the least, with CBS, abc News, the
(27:07):
Washington Post, abc News, theWashington Post, and
particularly with the SherryRedstone incident a couple weeks
ago.
I heard Bill Cohen reallytalking about this very, very
baldly as extortion.
How do you, as a CEO, balancethe boldness and courage of your
(27:31):
reporters with the need toprotect your business?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's a good question.
Well, I would start by um.
Come to Puck and stay at Puckis because they do feel like
they have our support to sharethe stories and the perspective
that that they care about Um,and, and we take that really,
(28:23):
really seriously, and so that'swhy Bill will share what he
shares.
That's why you know, lauradoesn't tend to get into
politics, but Laura will sharewhat she needs to share you know
, so on and so forth.
It covers a lot of different, Ithink, leaders and topics.
In terms of balancing yourbusiness.
(28:47):
We are a well Bill might havemade a comment like that as a
company.
We are a nonpartisan company,we do not have an affiliation in
either way and also on ourpolitical coverage.
It is why we really get intothe again.
(29:11):
I know I already said this, butthe business of what's happening
on K Street, the business ofwhat's happening inside of these
agencies, the coverage aroundwhat's happening with there's
been, sadly, a lot of differentwars that have broken out in the
last, you know, two yearsbetween Russia and Ukraine and
(29:32):
the current conflict betweenIsrael and Iran.
You know we're trying to reporton the background story of
what's happening inside of thecalculus of the leaders that are
making those decisions, andthat's not right or left.
(29:54):
It's actually more like thoughtleadership and I think it's
important when you have thislevel of talent inside of an
organization, that they feellike they can really truly bring
that thought leadership to thetable.
And you're talking about itfrom the angle of politics.
(30:16):
But let me take it to theentertainment category for a
second.
Like Matt writes about thecompanies that also, you know,
advertise alongside us.
That are some of our closestcustomers and some of our most
loyal customers.
And he's, you know, he'sreporting on the dynamics of
(30:37):
what are happening in thatindustry and there's like real
church and state between thosetwo things.
And he knows that and ourcustomers know that we
introduced an event that heanchored, called the stories of
the season around Oscars, andthen did the second one around
Emmys.
Those events are not pay toplay.
(31:00):
When we're bringing thenominees up, he is choosing them
.
It is entirely editoriallycurated experience.
And yet we have incrediblesponsors, both endemic and
non-endemic.
On the endemic side, they'rethere because they know that
most other things are pay toplay and there is like a
(31:21):
realness to this and a deeperconversation as a result of Matt
having that freedom to do that.
So it's probably just a valuesbased question on how we handle
it today.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Sarah Puck is all about human connection and that
relationship between yourjournalists and the subscribers,
which is so refreshing.
With AI becoming such a bigtopic and, in many cases, the
only topic, how do you see therole of generative AI in your
work, in your journalists' work,and what are the conversations
you're having with your team tokeep that talent centeredness at
(32:02):
Puck?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Our approach is talent first, ai ready.
Anyone who believes that AI isnot going to transform or
disrupt the industry that theywork in just needs to get on the
boat and start reading Ian'swork if they don't think that.
(32:27):
But I think there's probablytwo component parts to it.
There is what AI is doing tocontent creators and publishers
in terms of really scrollingthat content and then training
their models.
So there's a whole thing around.
(32:47):
How do you, I think, protect,measure and then monetize your
content effectively with what'shappening more broadly with some
of these open platforms?
And then there is the impactthat's having on referral
traffic and discovery, and youknow, so there's we're moving to
(33:08):
this like no click world,search engines becoming answer
engines, all of that kind ofstuff.
Those are problems that we, aspublishers, need to need to
solve, and those are problemsthat anyone who has any type of
online based business needs tosolve, and those are problems
that anyone who has any type ofonline-based business needs to
solve today.
And then there's the third part, which is workflow.
How do we embrace theseincredible technical solutions
(33:33):
that allow us to be a lot moreefficient and effective in the
way that we work?
So let me start from that side,which is probably the easiest
one.
In that respect, we are verylucky to run a very lean
organization.
We manage it based on ouroverall revenue per head.
(33:56):
That enables us basically tonot over bloat certain parts of
the organization.
What are the systems, solutionsand processes that are AI
enabled that can make ourworkflow that much more
efficient, and how do weimplement that?
And so that's a little bit onthe workflow side.
In order to do that, you dohave to have, like, very clear
(34:19):
print operating principles onhow you leverage these
technologies, so we're alsoworking through all of that
because the the like there getsto be some ethical components to
it, most importantly, though,being talent first, our writers
are always going to write.
It will always be their words,their language, their story,
(34:45):
their relationship, theirconvening power, and that is
what no AI solution can actuallyreplicate.
They might be able to replicateother things, but they can't
replicate that Um.
Then, if I go to the, to theleft side, um, there's this is.
This is where I thinkdisruption gets really exciting.
(35:06):
What a privilege that we get tolive through this disruptive
time and lead through thisdisruptive time.
You know we we've gone throughthis with um, the, the migration
to digital.
We've gone through this withmigration to mobile.
We've gone through this withlike social.
I remember sitting with clientsand they were like nobody's
ever going to watch a video ontheir phone.
And yet here we are and allthese things are pervasive and
(35:31):
ideally you were in a team or anenvironment at that time that
gave you the safe space to takerisks.
That is what I'm trying to doinside of our company.
What John's trying to do insideof our company is like we're
learning and iterating as thesethings are happening.
But at the same time, Iabsolutely know that 12 months
(35:54):
or 18 months from now, we'regoing to have rewritten the
playbook Developers.
They will see opportunities inthis disruption and they will
bring a whole new suite of tools.
And then the last part, whichis around like monetization and
you know access to IP and youknow just legally whether or not
that feels good or doesn't feelgood and how you work there.
(36:17):
We're really small relative tolike the New York Times and the
Wall Street Journal and thingslike that.
They're going to be the leadersin that space, helping to fight
the good fight, I think, forsome of the smaller publishers
and I really appreciate andrespect that.
We did the same thing on thelike in past lives with the
(36:42):
Facebooks and the Twitters ofthe world.
For Twitter, we took a lot ofdifferent stances that helped to
support other digital providersthat were much smaller, and you
do that because you're a partof an ecosystem and an industry
and this is not a zero-sum gameAll boats can actually rise, but
(37:02):
at the same time, we'remeasuring and we're monitoring
and we're protecting the content, and all of our stuff sits
behind a paywall and so you knowthere's.
You can't be blind to thesethings, and you also need to
understand where you put yourenergy and your emphasis in
order to succeed over the longterm.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Sarah, we could go on and on, but we are out of time.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Listeners, if you want to learnmore, the website is pucknews.
Go, sign up for your freeaccount and start getting
quality reporting delivereddirectly to your inbox.
Sarah, where can people keep upwith you and connect with you?
Speaker 3 (37:45):
LinkedIn is probably the best.
I tend not to be on many othersocial platforms.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
That's fine.
Personette, yeah, personette,like I always like to say,
personette, like a little person.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Like a little person, and yet I'm really tall.
It's quite ironic.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
And that's the show.
Unserious is produced by MicahVono.
Special thanks to our guest,sarah Personette.
If you have any questions orideas for future episodes, drop
us a line at hello atunseriouscom, and you can keep
up with us on LinkedIn, onInstagram at unseriousfun, or
our website at Siriuscom.
At Unserious, we make work.
Play no-transcript.
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