November 21, 2024 • 39 mins
Building a movement is truly an art form; one without a single formula or method. It takes more than strategy, and a lot more than just having a great idea. When a movement starts to click, you can feel it. The cogs begin to turn themselves, then turn each other, and the whole thing starts to move as something that’s bigger than any one of its parts. In this episode, J.B. and Molly go behind the scenes of social change initiatives with Eric Waldo, president and CEO of the District of Columbia College Access Program and the former executive director of Michelle Obama's Reach Higher program.
"What's our 'why?' What's the story and how can we tell it in a way that may move people where they have been cynical or skeptical before?" - Eric Waldo
You can follow Eric Waldo on LinkedIn and learn more about his work at dccap.org.
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Episode Transcript
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J.B. (00:05):
This is Unserious.
Molly (00:14):
Building a movement is truly an art form, one without a
single formula or method.
It takes more than strategy anda lot more than just having a
great idea.
It takes more than strategy anda lot more than just having a
great idea.
A movement is something morefluid, more organic, and when it
starts to click, you can feelit.
The cogs begin to turnthemselves, then turn each other
(00:34):
, and the whole thing starts tomove as something that's bigger
than any one of its parts.
I'm Molly McMahon, here with JBSkelton.
Hey there, I'm so excited tointroduce our guest today.
Eric Waldo is the president andCEO of the District of Columbia
College Access Program, whichis the largest scholarship
foundation in DC.
He's the former executivedirector of Michelle Obama's
(00:58):
Reach Higher initiative and aleader in many, many other
movements.
Eric, welcome to Unserious.
Eric (01:04):
Oh, thank you Molly, Thank you JB, Thank you for having me
, Eric it's great to have youhere,
Molly (01:09):
Yeah, I love movements.
I love to be inspired, I love agood call to action.
I like to be part of somethingthat's much bigger than myself,
with a shared mission or purpose.
And when I think aboutmovements in the United States
that really matter to me if it'slike the election of Barack
Obama, or if it's Mrs Obama'sinitiative to support
(01:29):
first-generation collegestudents, or Surgeon General Dr
Vivek Murthy's work on theCOVID-19 pandemic, or to end
loneliness, or actually justproviding local aid and support
to Puerto Rican familiespost-hurricanes you have been a
leader in all of them.
You've been a catalyzer behindthe scenes.
(01:50):
How did a lawyer from Clevelandbecome this catalyst for social
, economic and equitable change?
Eric (01:58):
When I was in college.
I was not one of those guys inhigh school and college who
thought I was going to work inWashington DC, have a government
job, work at the White House.
That was not my path.
In college I was a literaturemajor.
I also was pre-med.
I took the MCAT.
I'm like the youngest of three.
My dad's a doctor, was a doctorand I thought, oh, like I was
like the last chance, right.
(02:18):
And then 9-11 happened and Idon't know if you like read some
of the literature around.
Um, political science talks likebig moments in history, also
galvanizing people towardsmovements and moments.
And I remember at the time likeI'd finished a summer at the
berkshire theater festival andI'd assumed back then like I was
like I think I'm gonna apply tolike an mfa program and and go
become, you know, do theater.
(02:39):
And I was living in boston.
I had like eight by 10 glossyphotos of myself and I'm living
on a friend's couch and 9-11shappen and I'm just like, oh,
like, what do I really want todo and be?
And I remember I literally madea list that night of like the
people I admired and I tried tofigure out what they all had in
common Yep and I realized thatthere was a connection between
(03:02):
education and all of them and Ithought, wow, like I think I
could get involved in this, butI want to do more than just be a
classroom teacher.
At the time I was like I thinkI want to work at like the
policy level.
So I literally made thisdecision as the fall of 2001.
And I said I'm going to go togetting a master's in education,
I'm going to go to law schooland I want to do education
(03:23):
policy.
And I like to joke that I'm oneof like five people in America
who is doing the thing I said Iwanted to do on my law school
application essay.
I thought, given my skills andtalents, I wanted to make a
difference and I said I wantedto work in education policy.
Actually, I talked aboutwanting to work on your system
for Puerto Rico and you know,fast forward years later, I'm
working at the Department ofEducation, I'm on the Puerto
Rico Task Force for PresidentObama, I'm working with
(03:45):
literally like multiplegovernors, secretaries of
education, and you know so proudto do that.
But at every one of thesemoments I didn't realize how the
moment before had prepared mefor it, and I think this is
sometimes what I try to tellpeople out there who are, you
know, like my time in D in DC,I've had so many coffees with,
(04:05):
like White House interns oryoung people in DC who are
trying to figure out, like,should I go to law school?
Or like, what should I do to,like, get your job.
And I try to tell them, like Ididn't really have my stuff
together for a long, long timeand at any one of these moments
I hadn't planned out this.
Here's the step I'll take toget here.
(04:29):
At each of those moments I wasreally trying to follow my
passion.
To be honest, it was reallyimportant for me to develop my
own internal compass and my owntrue north, because at so many
of these inflection points,someone else might have said,
like, oh, take the money or takethe prestige, but instead I
tried to follow my passion.
And, by the way, it's like I'msome genius, I got lucky in some
of these moments too right, butI tried to say, okay, this
makes sense, I'm going to followmy passion versus like the
prestige thing.
And the last thing, let me giveyou one final example of that
(04:52):
Like, because I do think thesedecisions end up having
compounding interest effects onyour career.
I've been working on the side,helping advise Mrs Obama for my
position at Department of Ed andthis crux moment occurred,
where I actually had been fiveyears and I was like, oh, maybe
I should look to leave.
And I had a job offer on thetable from Google.
And so, and then after that,literally that same week, I had
a Google job offer and thisoffer to go move to Mrs Obama's
(05:14):
office on detail to work at theWhite House and run what became
Reach Higher.
And for me it was like a nobrainer because it's like you
know, I did the math.
Like I care about publicservice, I've been working for
this family, trying to help themachieve their political goals
and it wasn't like a harddecision.
But that week I happened to havea meeting with a guy who I was
on a board with through thegovernment and he was a business
(05:35):
person, and when I told him mychoices he thought I was crazy,
right, he's like you've alreadyserved.
Like he, basically no, no timeto go cash in and make money.
And I was like no, no, I wantto do this.
And so, again those moments,someone is always going to give
you different advice and, Ithink, following passion versus
prestige, finding your ownpurpose, finding your own true
(05:56):
north.
That's helped me get to where Iam, to be able to fulfill my
own purpose and my own sense ofworth to be part of these
campaigns, because I sort ofsaid like no, no, no, I'm gonna
do it, despite the fact thatother people sometimes thought
like maybe that wasn't thesmartest thing for me to do.
Molly (06:12):
What would you say is the difference between building a
movement and somebody declaringa mandate?
Eric (06:19):
Yeah, I think the movement versus mandate piece in my mind
me speaks to the synergy, uhlike, if it's a movement, there
is a synergy of kind of likeright person, right time,
catching a spark, because therewas already this sort of built
up momentum or built up energyaround something right.
(06:40):
So barack obama is a unique andsingular politician of his
generation, but he had to showup at the right moment, Right To
to, to catch the wind and thefire of oh my gosh, people are
ready for change.
Right, he, he shows up afteryou know two terms of George W
Bush, Right.
And again you talk about thesemoments and stories like my lead
(07:03):
up to even deciding to work forthe Obama campaign was that, as
a clerk, I read Barack Obama'sbook.
I read the book by Doris KearnsGoodwin Team of Rivals.
I read it that winter beforeabout how Lincoln, right out of
nowhere right this one term,small, you know, Springfield,
Illinois congressperson becomespresident at this time of great
upheaval.
And I also saw a one man showthat was touring, actually
(07:24):
actually from DC, about RobertKennedy and what he did, and I
just felt in my heart like I waslike, oh, like America.
I thought, in my own analysisbased on sort of all my reading
and thinking, was we needed tobe inspired again about what was
possible, that there was somedeep cynicism about government
in the wake of the Bushadministration and I thought
Barack Obama was more likely tocapture that fire because of who
(07:45):
he was, what he represented,versus the Clintons, who are
certainly deeply talented andqualified.
But I thought from a narrativeperspective couldn't catch that.
So this is sort of like righttime, right place and that those
moments happen and it can belightning in a bottle.
And I think mandates, bydefinition, they can't capture
that energy because it's muchmore of a static piece.
(08:08):
Right, you can't tell people,you can't say no, no, like that
person, or you can't mandatepopularity.
Would that we could.
I mean, you guys have worked inthese industries around brands
and design, but there are somany people who've thrown tons
of money at things or have beenthe smartest people or had, like
(08:29):
, been technically correct, hadthe right ideas on paper, but
have not won the moment or themovement because they are
lacking some of that je ne saisquoi.
Right, yeah, Bernie Sanders,like that was such a fascinating
moment of brand, right?
How is this old guy fromVermont who mostly has been an
independent, running fordemocratic president and
capturing the hearts and mindsof young people, and memes and
(08:51):
birds and doves are showing upon on his uh you know he's there
speaking, and I mean it felt itwas a moment right when we have
these tools now with socialmedia that I think allow us
sometimes maybe to add a littlebit more of a spark.
Think about a Bader O'Rourkewith his.
You know some of the talks hegave.
Molly (09:11):
So I think we live around to Whataburgers.
Yes, I love this guy.
Eric (09:17):
So what's interesting about these times is that,
because of the way we'vedistributed media in the hands
of individuals and now each ofus can be a producer or our own
brand um, in some ways it's it'sstill not really a a
meritocracy, but there is stillmore.
There's more distributed power.
Right, yeah, we talked about mylife in theater briefly.
(09:38):
However talented I was, ormaybe my roommate was, or
whomever like, back in the year2000, 2001, if you wanted to be
in a play or a tv show or amovie, like, you had to go
through the traditional channelsand a casting agent, a producer
, whatever, all had to say.
I approve.
Before your voice and vision areprojected to a lot of people,
(10:00):
and with the advent of youtube,instagram, other social media
companies, now, that momentwhere a tweet, a TikTok video,
something can go viral becauseit somehow hits this tone that
resonates with everybody, that'swhere these movement moments
are more interesting to me thanthe mandates.
The mandates can never and Iwill just be again specific.
(10:22):
I think a mandate moment thatthis is just one of the most
epic failures.
Right is the Pepsi commercialwith the Kardashian.
Right, where they tried to doyou know the Pepsi handed to the
cop with all the people, ohyeah.
Molly (10:35):
Kendall Jenner I think it was.
Eric (10:36):
Sure, sorry.
Yes, yes, yes.
J.B. (10:38):
She's a Kardashian too, I was close or close enough.
Eric (10:41):
I was close or close enough.
Right.
That was a, that was a bigbrand saying no, no, we'll
mandate and try to takeadvantage of the moment to like
to decide to surf on the wave ofthe movement and the movement
(11:06):
rejected it Right, because itwas inauthentic and it wasn't
there real.
Or these different things thathappen where suddenly people are
showing up on their own andfeel like they have agency and
can be part of something largerthan themselves.
I think it's really hard tofake that.
It's not that people don't try,and not that there aren't sort
of the grass tops versus thegrassroots, but I think those
moments are pretty special andthat's why we study them, that's
why people are so moved by themand that's why I think we also
have so much nostalgia towardsthem.
Molly (11:33):
So I'm on Sirius.
We like to start with a warmupcalled Hire, fire Boss, which is
really fun.
It's a quick fire game and theway it works is we give you a
hypothetical task and somefictional candidates to
accomplish that task.
So you must hire one, fire one,and one will be your boss.
(11:53):
Great Sounds good.
I love it Great.
So the task at hand is howmight we build a national
campaign to promote theawesomeness of Cleveland Ohio,
your hometown?
The team is all peeps from yourhometown of Cleveland Ohio.
You have Tracy Chapman,singer-songwriter.
(12:16):
Plus, if you need a fast car,you have Halle Berry, academy
Award winner.
Monsters Ball, also Catwoman,she's an X-Men.
And you have Kid Cudi, a rapper, singer and producer.
Let's go.
Eric (12:31):
I love this.
This is fantastic.
Here's what I'm thinking.
I think I want to hire TracyChapman because I think, you
know, she's a storyteller, she'sa singer, she's someone who
will, you know, create someiconic song about Cleveland or
can help us, you know, galvanizepeople, you know, a concert for
(12:54):
Cleveland.
So I definitely would hireTracy Chapman.
I think I'm going to fire KidCudi, mostly because I don't
know enough about Kid Cudi, sothat seems to be the natural
thing to do.
You know, listen, you know, I'msure, kid Cudi, mostly because
I don't know enough about KidCudi, so that seems to be the
natural thing to do.
You know, listen, you know, I'msure Kid Cudi has some things
to offer, but right now, youknow, I've got, I've, I've got
two incredible women of color toeither hire or have my boss.
There's no question, halleBerry is going to be my boss,
(13:17):
right.
Like she's, she's managed tocreate an incredible career for
herself.
She clearly can help us managea great campaign.
She knows how to do action, sheknows how to do drama, she
knows how to manage thelimelight.
She can take, you know, theRock and Roll Hall of Fame and
all those celebrities and helpus create an iconic concert for
Cleveland every year.
(13:37):
Not move that silly Rock Hallconcert to New York.
It should be in Cleveland whereit belongs.
And I know Halle Berry, youknow she's got the wherewithal
to make it happen.
Molly (13:47):
I love it.
I love it, jb.
What if you were designing orcreating this campaign for
Cleveland?
Who'd be your dream team?
J.B. (13:54):
Well, I'm going to take, I'm going to, I'm going to go.
This is going to be provocative, but I'm firing Tracy Chapman
and I love Tracy Chapman.
Wow, what Her entire brand isleaving town.
I know that is the story thatshe told, but she's timeless and
(14:17):
she's back and the story.
Eric (14:19):
Was it the Grammys or was it the Tony?
J.B. (14:21):
No, she's amazing, she's amazing, but her town is San
Francisco, eric, she is so I'msorry.
Eric (14:27):
what's the name of the town?
Again, I haven't heard of it.
That's the right response.
Molly (14:32):
Looking from.
Eric (14:32):
Cleveland.
You don't know much about SanFrancisco because you've already
lived in such greatness.
So I.
But I'd love to learn about SanFrancisco.
Please tell me more.
J.B. (14:42):
Yeah, thank you.
I am going to go with Kid Cudias boss.
Eric (14:50):
Ooh, yeah.
J.B. (14:52):
I have a lot of respect for producers and I also did not
know a lot about him until Istarted Googling him.
Eric (15:01):
I didn't realize we could Google him.
J.B. (15:04):
During this competition.
Eric (15:05):
I thought this was like trivia no smartphones allowed.
J.B. (15:13):
What are the steps to convincing people at scale to
rally around a common goal?
Eric (15:19):
So to me and I'll speak from, obviously, like a point of
privilege around, like whereI've been lucky to work at a
place like the White House, forinstance, where you have you're
already commanding a lot ofattention, but there's still
you're still trying to answerthat question, like how do we
drive attention towards thiscollective vision and goal?
And maybe I'll walk you throughthe process that I saw most
successfully run out of MrsObama's office.
(15:42):
And again I give tremendouscredit to her as both a deep and
deep thinking strategist, butalso someone who understood the
value of focusing on a fewthings and not trying to do
everything, which is, I think,another like probably like
mandate versus movement problem.
Like movements are reallyfocused usually and I think
(16:03):
sometimes people are like, oh,like let's try to do everything.
And I think sometimes peopleare like, oh, let's try to do
everything.
And I think Mrs Obama, reallybecause of her own authentic
brand, was like I want to dothings that are really deeply
authentic to me which, by theway, authenticity is one of
those key ingredients to amovement.
But she said you know what?
I'm only going to work onthings that are deeply authentic
to me and I want to figure outhow I can have the maximal
impact at this limited time thatI have in office.
(16:25):
So I think there's like theorigin piece right.
So, as you're designing whatyou want to be your movement, I
think having that deepreflection, or reflection with a
team and organization, likewhat's our why?
And like how are we uniquelypositioned to do this work that
no one else is, what's the storywe have to tell that no one
else can tell and how can wetell it in a way that may move
(16:48):
people where they might havebeen cynical or skeptical before
.
So I think, like the why is areally key ingredient there.
And then I think there's likethe tactics of how I learned at
least using some of theconventions of government to
build these movements, and Ithink this is actually where
there is more design andintentionality.
So you start with that reallydeep, you know, almost like
researching, scaffolding, lit,review of like what's out there,
(17:11):
our why, then like what else isalready out there, and then how
can we be a force multiplier?
And again, I think this was MsObama's secret sauce.
You think about let's move.
You think about retire, youthink about joining forces.
Now you think about let girlslearn, no-transcript government
(17:53):
to have an obesity task force,and then do research,
interagency note from thepresident.
And suddenly we then work with,yes, a brand agency to create a
brand and we come up with withlots of listening, talking let's
move, and let's move as anonprofit C3 partner in the
President's Council for Fitnessright, or I think it's HHA
(18:16):
Partners for a Healthier America.
And so what does that do?
That creates, I think, what Ithink of as a permission
structure for other folks inthat world to maybe kind of put
down their swords Like so manypeople that I discover in the
space are all fighting forcredit, but kind of all working
on the similar stuff and we wereable to, I think, with let's
(18:37):
Move to get people to say, oh,wow, like now we have a leader,
we have someone who is tip ofthe spear telling us these are
the three big things we're goingto go for and create these ways
to measure and to galvanize andhave us come together.
So that's sort of somemechanics.
I'll also talk about what we'vementioned before on movement.
I do think Mrs Obama deeplyunderstood the idea of the bully
pulpit and how the bully pulpit, from a storytelling
(18:59):
perspective and from a cultureperspective, is actually much
more important than, again, themandate perspective.
And I think this is where Ithink Mrs Obama taught President
Obama a lot about this right.
He and his team, who are noslouches on policy.
They might be right on themerits, but if they couldn't win
over hearts and minds, it wasin some ways irrelevant and I
(19:20):
think Mrs Obama had a deeperunderstanding of like, hey, it
doesn't matter how right I amabout exercise and healthy
eating, I got to make this cooland so that means doing push-ups
with Will Ferrell and going onEllen and doing something fun
with Jimmy Fallon or having aturn up for what viral video.
She understood that thesecultural moments were much more
(19:45):
important and let me again I'llsort of go back and forth.
I think this is one of thebiggest moments for Reach Higher
, when we had a Reach Highercampaign same deal, right, we
say hey, we're going to launchthis campaign.
We work with a branding agencyto launch a student-facing
campaign called Better Make Room.
I did a lot of Gen Z research.
We had a nonprofit partner thatwas Civic Nation and really
(20:08):
quickly we were like what's thecreative work that we can do to
come together and I worked withour comms team and with some
creatives outside of governmentand we worked with the team and
they created a video.
They basically wrote a rap songfor Michelle Obama to record
Jay Pharoah and it was her let'sgo to college rap video and
it's meant to be funny.
And we record this at the WhiteHouse.
(20:31):
We do this rap video, michelleObama rapping on a microphone,
and it's supposed to come outthat December and I remember
literally like Ms Obama's teamwas real stressed out about it
because it's like is this goingto be on presidential?
Is this going to be like whatare we doing here?
Well, out about it.
(20:51):
Because it's like is this goingto be on presidential?
Is this going to be like, whatare we doing here?
Well, it comes out and it goesinsanely viral and literally I
knew we'd hit somethingdifferent when, like rolling
stone, italy was like tweetingan italian about michelle obama.
Actually, michelle, you know,uh, you know flotus bars like
michelle obama, and people wereposting different photos of
themselves rapping to it and andso it just created this moment
where it suddenly had gone viraland it was just out in the
world.
So later, maybe like a monthlater that was December so, like
(21:13):
January, mrs Obama does aschool visit and she's visiting
with like third or fourthgraders it was actually a let's
Move event, it wasn't a ReachHigher event and one of the
students sees Mrs Obama and saysI saw you, you were rapping.
Mommy says I saw you, you wererapping.
And she says oh yeah, what wasI talking about?
She said go to college, right?
And that's that moment where,like, is that kid gonna remember
that?
Like we actually, because of ourFAFSA policy, we moved, you
(21:36):
know, $40 billion from banks tostudents and yada, yada, like,
no, but like is the cultural,you know, is the cultural
iconography changed because hehears the first female
African-American first lady whowent to Princeton rapping about
college, talking about beingfirst gen.
Is that more in his culturalbrain and will that sit with him
as he thinks about going tocollege or encourages other
(21:58):
people?
And so that's that moment toowhere, like, we can have, you
need to have, the blocking andtackling of a campaign, a bully
pulpit, policy objectives, a wayto harness the power of others.
But then also you do need tohave, I think, sort of the fun
and the cool and use that bullypulpit to try to inject joy and
(22:19):
levity and inspiration.
Molly (22:22):
In movements do you always have to have a leader or
a celebrity behind it?
Or you also talked about thepossibilities in a more
distributed world that we livein due to technology and sort of
a post-globalized state.
I'm curious do you need to havethat person behind it or not?
(22:43):
Thoughts.
Eric (22:45):
Yeah, I mean, look, this is.
You know.
I always tell people like, whatluck right and what fortune for
me in the world that MichelleObama wanted to take on the
issues that she took on andwe're better for it.
And to the extent that you canor will get a great ambassador,
that's the dream.
But I think the reality in thisdistributed world and we've
thought about it a lot on theReach Higher and obviously now
(23:06):
I'm a few years away from ReachHigher, but we remember having
this conversation like wait asecond, when will Michelle Obama
no longer be as relevant?
And do we need to have thebaton, the secession, planning
to think who's another celebrityambassador, who is the right
person to take on this work?
I always think it's great ifyou can have a tip of the spear
person recognizing that in anymovement and I've read about
(23:26):
this in the civil rightsmovement right, like you need
you need the lieutenants.
Right, it's not just MLK outthere inspiring people.
Like you need all these peopledoing different parts of the
work to make sure it gets done.
So so I, my very small tactical, is like, if you can get an,
you know, if Beyonce wanted tobecome the head of X on protect,
pick our policy.
None of us would say no to it.
But having again work with evenLady Gaga's foundation around
(23:54):
mental health, one superpoweredperson is also not enough.
We really need this to be theAvengers.
We need all the superheroes towork together, and that was true
in anything I've worked on,whether that's politics, mental
health, college access, puertoRico, you name it it.
And let me just go back becauseyou know, jb, you were talking
about the tactics.
I do want to say one other piece.
It's just very specific,because I think it's another
thing we learned in the obamaadministration and it's and it's
(24:14):
how you take these.
You actually combine themovement and the moment, and I
think, um, and this was aroundthe convening authority that I
think we recognized, that we had, and, and obviously it's
special to say you got a placeat the White House and it's an
address, but I actually thinkpeople don't realize how much
power they have to convene.
So this is sort of like if youbuild it, they will come right.
So Barack Obama right, he wantsto launch a $5 billion high
(24:39):
quality teaching campaign.
He wants to launch amulti-billion dollar early
learning campaign, et cetera.
He had all sorts of second termpolicy objectives.
Once we lost the house, that wasa lot harder to pull off, but
barack obama famously said Istill have a pen, I still have a
phone, and so what we did onthe college access side and we
did this twice, once with wheregene spurling led it and once
where actually was led with byme and some folks at dpc, the
(25:02):
domestic policy council,national economic council where
we basically said we were goingto have this college opportunity
summit and you know, we didn'thave any money, we weren't
giving away anything.
The idea was hey, collegepresident, if you want to come
to the White House and standwith the next two Barack Obama,
michelle Obama, joe Biden, jillBiden the ticket to entry is a
commitment to you know, thesethree or five pillars of work,
(25:25):
right, stem education, morefirst-gen students, solving the
under-matching problem, right.
We actually had these veryspecific pillars that we wanted
folks to invest in and we saidto come, you have to make a
promise, to make a commitment inone of these areas.
You're going to propose it.
We're not necessarily going tolet you in.
You have to say it's asignificant, it's new money,
it's a new commitment.
(25:46):
And when we first did it inJanuary of 2014,.
I think we got something like100, 150 commitments from
college presidents.
By the time we did it, thatDecember, we had over 500
commitments and it wasmulti-million dollar commitments
, it was multi-year commitmentsand to me that was I think I
might have been part of somecommitments you were, you were
(26:06):
you were, but that to me Icommitted, you did it, you made
a commitment.
And I just think, like sometimespeople are afraid and we're
still just in like our highschool or college party phase,
like oh, is anyone going to comeif I throw?
J.B. (26:17):
this party.
Eric (26:17):
Yeah, oh yeah.
And to me, I've done it at theWhite House, I've done it at the
Surgeon General's office, I'vedone it in my now new spot as a
CEO of a local foundation.
If you throw a party and tellpeople here's the ticket to come
, suddenly it goes from isanyone going to come to people?
Wait, I hear you guys are doingthat thing.
Wait, can I come?
Molly (26:36):
Yeah, how do I get in?
Eric (26:39):
That's certainly for those White House summits, the
College of Opportunity summits.
That's what happened.
It was like, oh wait, I need tobe there.
I hear everyone else is goingto be there.
What can I do?
And we began using thatplaybook for everything right.
Suddenly, we had an earlychildhood summit.
You know, a climate summit.
You know literally one of myfriends who's still in this
White House, the Biden WhiteHouse.
You know they had a CancerMoonshot Summit.
(27:00):
Like we learned.
We learned this playbook ofusing your convening authority
to help drive an agenda thatdoesn't require Congress but can
use the power of the WhiteHouse, the convening power you
have.
And again, I would tell people,you don't have to be at the
White House to have thatconvening authority.
And in some ways we're talkingabout movements.
That's what organizing is.
It can be as humble as a churchbasement having hot dogs and
(27:29):
hot tea.
Hey, like, let's all cometogether.
Like what could we all committo doing?
And that's now in my new role,which is now a very local role
as opposed to national, I'mtrying to take those best
practices and say, look, dc,like, let's all come together.
And we hosted a college signingday at Ka One Arena in April of
2024.
And I got Michelle Obama to stopby and surprise the kids.
(27:50):
But we got big commitments andwe announced a big, moonshot
goal for the city that by 2050,we want to erase the higher
achievement gap in Washington DCso that we have an 80% six-year
college graduation rate.
And I could have gone one by one, in person, by person, and try
to get people to sign mypamphlet, and I did some of that
.
But by having this big moment,by having an event, by having a
(28:11):
celebration with thousands of DCstudents, it just created some
enthusiasm, some excitement, andnow I've been at this job
almost close to two years, it'sso much easier for me to now
walk in the door with a partnerat the public school side, on
the charter school side, on thephilanthropy side, and people
are like, okay, it's not just anice PowerPoint, he's trying to
bring people together, he'sgiving away credit and he's
(28:33):
trying to further somethinglarger than himself.
And that, again, are some ofthose things that I find in my
experience.
The other part of the movementpiece is honestly distributing
that credit right, which I thinkgets in the way of movements in
the past or sometimes keepspeople from doing that convening
they're like well, who's goingto get credit for this?
J.B. (28:50):
For any kind of campaign, whether you're selling
toothpaste or healthy living,messaging matters.
How do you design and executecommunications that invite
people into the mission?
And then, on top of that, youneed this really clear call to
action, and so I'm curious, likehow do you think about creating
(29:14):
calls to action within thatmessaging structure?
Eric (29:18):
When I look back, when I think about the early part,
certainly like my first term,when I was really part of
education, like it really wasjust really smart, wonderful
people kind of in a room beinglike all right, like what should
we do?
Like what are we going to callit?
Like let's just go out thereand you know the five to 15,
maybe even 30 people in a roomjust inventing something,
(29:39):
largely absent.
What I think you know, you allcertainly have experience with
what I would think of as likedesign principles, right.
And then the magic right.
For me in the second term, andreally starting with the work we
did with, for me, reach higherand better make room was oh yeah
, there are people who areexperts at this and even if you,
you know, think you're a greatcommunicator or or or Maven of
(30:00):
some kind, getting people toactually build a thoughtful
design centered process, tobring in diverse perspectives,
again, actually work with abranding or movement agency to
help you do all the work tocreate a brand and a movement.
That is where I don't considerthat a mandate.
I consider that likeauthentically creating something
(30:22):
and trying to birth it into theworld.
So for us and I will give folksprops.
We work with folks like the.
I certainly work with folkslike IDEO in something and
trying to birth it into theworld.
So for us and I will give folksprops we worked with folks like
certainly worked with folks likeIDEO.
We also worked with for us forBetter Make Room, which is Mrs
Obama's student-centered part ofReach Higher.
We actually went to a firmcalled the Black Sheep Agency
and this is a little bit of afun creation story.
At the White House at the timeagain, you're learning by both
(30:45):
success and failure.
At the White House at the timeagain learning by both success
and failure we had a model ofhow to do get a.
You know, we have in-kindauthority with agencies where
you can get really wonderfulprofessionals and they can give
away their time for free throughan agency's gift authority and
basically say cool, whatotherwise would have been a
million dollar branding campaignwe're going to do for you
because we want to help thegovernment.
J.B. (31:13):
You shared this exercise that you did in your apartment
after 9-11, listing out thepeople that you admired the most
and finding common threadsbetween them.
Those moments of reflection,and really focused reflection,
have been so helpful for me, andit's a massive credit to your
younger self that you had thematurity to take that on.
If you were to do that sameexercise today, right now, who
(31:34):
are a few of those people thatyou would list as folks that you
admire and what are the commonthreads?
Eric (31:42):
Yeah, so again we're talking about this and I'm
really really lucky to work withsome phenomenal people, and so
you know when I think about ArneDuncan, you know Michelle Obama
, you know I throw like Murphyon there too, like maybe Don
Graham, ted Leonsis, like peopleI just deeply admire.
You know, first, with Arne, thatguy just has unlimited courage.
(32:06):
He is someone who tells thetruth, is willing to talk to
people who disagree with him,vociferously and literally walks
the walk right Like he couldhave gone and cashed out or done
a thousand different things,and he is truly like on the
streets in Chicago trying towork on the gun epidemic, trying
(32:28):
to help get people out of theunstable drug and violence
economy into like real jobs andinternships and working with
people who've been hurt by gunviolence and and help them, help
turn them into healers, and.
But Arnie is just someone who,like, in some ways I got to
shadow him for five plus yearsand I said this actually at my
goodbye party when I went to theWhite House At the time.
(32:50):
I think it was the En Vogue10,000 hours, malcolm Gladwell
thing how many hours do you haveto spend to become an expert at
something Between planes,trains and automobiles.
I probably spent at least10,000 hours with Arne Duncan.
And he's the real deal and youcan't fake that sort of courage
and honesty.
And at every moment, like hewasn't thinking about himself.
(33:12):
His question in any room waslike what's the right thing for
kids?
And he was willing to walkthrough fire, um, personally and
professionally, if it was theright thing to do and like just
had no.
He's sort of like theantithesis of what people think
are like, of craven politicians,like he just wasn't a
politician.
He's like I'm just gonna dowhat's right and had just almost
like a very simple, same thing,a very, a very simple gauge of
(33:35):
like is this the right thing todo for kids, then let's go do it
.
And, like you know, thepolitics will figure themselves
out.
And that was something that hasjust given me laser-like clarity
as I continue to age and growinto other roles where it's like
A, that that was really specialand unique, but B, that like
that is also a choice.
Like you don't have.
Like you can just be courageous.
Like you don't have to likethat's again, we can.
(33:56):
We can make choices about whatwe value.
So courage, and Arnie Duncan isone of my biggest ones.
For Michelle Obama, I would saywhat I admire most about her is
her authenticity, and that samething right, like if you think
about how effective she was atthe convention this summer or if
you've ever heard about herlife like that's not an accident
, right, you know I wrote sometweets about this after the
(34:20):
speech.
But number one, she practicesand reflects on things deeply.
So, like a speech prep happensmonths in advance and her first
reflection is like what's themost unique thing that I have to
offer to these people?
That, and reflects on thingsdeeply.
So, like a speech prep happensmonths in advance and her first
reflection is like what's themost unique thing that I have to
offer to these people that noone else can, that we need to
share with them.
That could, that could.
That's a lesson they need tolearn.
And then, yeah, she's willing tobe vulnerable and authentic and
(34:41):
say her truth.
And you know, we I rememberwhen we spoke at the Tuskegee
commencement, right, and shetalked about you know what it
meant for her to be the firstAfrican-American first lady and
told some vulnerable storiesabout how it felt and her.
You know the hurt that sheexperienced.
You know, going through theelectoral cycle.
Those are the moments thatbreak through, right, that
(35:03):
people talk about and why peopleare so moved by her is because
she's so authentic and becauseshe's so connected to who she is
.
And again, right, that takescourage as well, but I think you
know, I think about our arnie'scourage, just like put kids
first, michelle obama's courageand around being her most
authentic self.
Um, I mentioned vivek and Iwould just say it.
You know, this is in this worldof a crazy place, you know we're
(35:24):
all imperfect vessels, but, um,he might be one of the kindest
people I've ever met and I thinkthat obviously comes from a
wellspring of his own life andexperience.
But, and especially in a placelike dc, I have experienced
there are occasional people like, well, this is just the speed
or this is like there's gonna besome casualties, because, like,
we gotta get stuff done.
And you know, that's not thevague.
(35:48):
I think he really is someonewho, who, who made kindness a
personal and professional valuethat he lives up to and how he
sees and treats people.
And I just think much moreabout that in my life today,
because I think kindness and thelong game are deeply connected.
Right, we're like it's the old,like people forget what you,
what you said, but we'llremember how you made them feel.
(36:08):
And I think you know he'ssomeone who, I know, thinks
deeply about how thoseindividual moments, that every
moment might be that moment forsomeone of the make or break and
treating them withinterpersonal kindness is
something fantastic.
So, and maybe just last thingI'll say and then you know, I
(36:29):
know we're approaching time, but, um, I'd still take my dad, who
probably I don't know if thathe, maybe he made the first list
when I was 22, 23, but, um, youknow, my father passed away
last year.
He worked at a lab because heran a cardiology lab both in in
New York and Alabama and Ohiofor basically 50 years, and he
(36:50):
had sort of a set of his own,like Dr Waldo's rules for his
lab.
And I just have a deepadmiration for sort of the
wisdom that he tried to impartas a teacher, as someone who
really was so passionate andloved his job so much and was
able to make a difference.
And I think one of his ruleswas it's got gotta be fun to go
to work in the morning.
And I think I didn't, when Iwas a young person, didn't
(37:13):
appreciate how special it was tobe so excited about your job
and, like my dad, he loved doingwhat he did and I think that's
something that I think I'mpretty good at what I do and I
think I like it a lot.
But if I won the Powerballtomorrow, like I might do some
other stuff and I diversify Iwouldn't stop working.
(37:33):
But like my dad, he just hispassion for his job is something
that I deeply admire and Ithink you know, if you can mix
all these things together,you're probably going to have
happy at home happy at work,going live a good life.
Molly (37:50):
Eric, wow, I just want to thank you.
I feel like you've given us allpermission to be if we want to
be courageous, if we want to beauthentic, we want to be kind
and if we want to have fun andlove what we do.
I think that all, also all,sits under your value of like
passion over prestige and justthank you, thank you for for,
thank you for, thank you for allthe work that you do on behalf
(38:12):
of our students and oureducators and the nation, and
it's just so nice to bereconnected and have that chance
to be dazzled by you.
I just you're, you're, you'remy favorite movement maker.
Eric (38:24):
Well it's.
You guys are so kind andgenerous to invite me on.
I've been lucky to work withteams and fantastic leaders who
make these movements possible.
I'm happy to be one smallingredient in that larger stew.
J.B. (38:41):
And that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
(39:03):
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Eric (39:18):
I'm sorry.
What's the name of the town?
Again, I haven't heard of it.
When you're from Cleveland, youdon't know much about San
Francisco because you've alreadylived in such greatness.
This is Unserious.
Molly (00:14):
Building a movement is truly an art form, one without a
single formula or method.
It takes more than strategy anda lot more than just having a
great idea.
It takes more than strategy anda lot more than just having a
great idea.
A movement is something morefluid, more organic, and when it
starts to click, you can feelit.
The cogs begin to turnthemselves, then turn each other
(00:34):
, and the whole thing starts tomove as something that's bigger
than any one of its parts.
I'm Molly McMahon, here with JBSkelton.
Hey there, I'm so excited tointroduce our guest today.
Eric Waldo is the president andCEO of the District of Columbia
College Access Program, whichis the largest scholarship
foundation in DC.
He's the former executivedirector of Michelle Obama's
(00:58):
Reach Higher initiative and aleader in many, many other
movements.
Eric, welcome to Unserious.
Eric (01:04):
Oh, thank you Molly, Thank you JB, Thank you for having me
, Eric it's great to have youhere,
Molly (01:09):
Yeah, I love movements.
I love to be inspired, I love agood call to action.
I like to be part of somethingthat's much bigger than myself,
with a shared mission or purpose.
And when I think aboutmovements in the United States
that really matter to me if it'slike the election of Barack
Obama, or if it's Mrs Obama'sinitiative to support
(01:29):
first-generation collegestudents, or Surgeon General Dr
Vivek Murthy's work on theCOVID-19 pandemic, or to end
loneliness, or actually justproviding local aid and support
to Puerto Rican familiespost-hurricanes you have been a
leader in all of them.
You've been a catalyzer behindthe scenes.
(01:50):
How did a lawyer from Clevelandbecome this catalyst for social
, economic and equitable change?
Eric (01:58):
When I was in college.
I was not one of those guys inhigh school and college who
thought I was going to work inWashington DC, have a government
job, work at the White House.
That was not my path.
In college I was a literaturemajor.
I also was pre-med.
I took the MCAT.
I'm like the youngest of three.
My dad's a doctor, was a doctorand I thought, oh, like I was
like the last chance, right.
(02:18):
And then 9-11 happened and Idon't know if you like read some
of the literature around.
Um, political science talks likebig moments in history, also
galvanizing people towardsmovements and moments.
And I remember at the time likeI'd finished a summer at the
berkshire theater festival andI'd assumed back then like I was
like I think I'm gonna apply tolike an mfa program and and go
become, you know, do theater.
(02:39):
And I was living in boston.
I had like eight by 10 glossyphotos of myself and I'm living
on a friend's couch and 9-11shappen and I'm just like, oh,
like, what do I really want todo and be?
And I remember I literally madea list that night of like the
people I admired and I tried tofigure out what they all had in
common Yep and I realized thatthere was a connection between
(03:02):
education and all of them and Ithought, wow, like I think I
could get involved in this, butI want to do more than just be a
classroom teacher.
At the time I was like I thinkI want to work at like the
policy level.
So I literally made thisdecision as the fall of 2001.
And I said I'm going to go togetting a master's in education,
I'm going to go to law schooland I want to do education
(03:23):
policy.
And I like to joke that I'm oneof like five people in America
who is doing the thing I said Iwanted to do on my law school
application essay.
I thought, given my skills andtalents, I wanted to make a
difference and I said I wantedto work in education policy.
Actually, I talked aboutwanting to work on your system
for Puerto Rico and you know,fast forward years later, I'm
working at the Department ofEducation, I'm on the Puerto
Rico Task Force for PresidentObama, I'm working with
(03:45):
literally like multiplegovernors, secretaries of
education, and you know so proudto do that.
But at every one of thesemoments I didn't realize how the
moment before had prepared mefor it, and I think this is
sometimes what I try to tellpeople out there who are, you
know, like my time in D in DC,I've had so many coffees with,
(04:05):
like White House interns oryoung people in DC who are
trying to figure out, like,should I go to law school?
Or like, what should I do to,like, get your job.
And I try to tell them, like Ididn't really have my stuff
together for a long, long timeand at any one of these moments
I hadn't planned out this.
Here's the step I'll take toget here.
(04:29):
At each of those moments I wasreally trying to follow my
passion.
To be honest, it was reallyimportant for me to develop my
own internal compass and my owntrue north, because at so many
of these inflection points,someone else might have said,
like, oh, take the money or takethe prestige, but instead I
tried to follow my passion.
And, by the way, it's like I'msome genius, I got lucky in some
of these moments too right, butI tried to say, okay, this
makes sense, I'm going to followmy passion versus like the
prestige thing.
And the last thing, let me giveyou one final example of that
(04:52):
Like, because I do think thesedecisions end up having
compounding interest effects onyour career.
I've been working on the side,helping advise Mrs Obama for my
position at Department of Ed andthis crux moment occurred,
where I actually had been fiveyears and I was like, oh, maybe
I should look to leave.
And I had a job offer on thetable from Google.
And so, and then after that,literally that same week, I had
a Google job offer and thisoffer to go move to Mrs Obama's
(05:14):
office on detail to work at theWhite House and run what became
Reach Higher.
And for me it was like a nobrainer because it's like you
know, I did the math.
Like I care about publicservice, I've been working for
this family, trying to help themachieve their political goals
and it wasn't like a harddecision.
But that week I happened to havea meeting with a guy who I was
on a board with through thegovernment and he was a business
(05:35):
person, and when I told him mychoices he thought I was crazy,
right, he's like you've alreadyserved.
Like he, basically no, no timeto go cash in and make money.
And I was like no, no, I wantto do this.
And so, again those moments,someone is always going to give
you different advice and, Ithink, following passion versus
prestige, finding your ownpurpose, finding your own true
(05:56):
north.
That's helped me get to where Iam, to be able to fulfill my
own purpose and my own sense ofworth to be part of these
campaigns, because I sort ofsaid like no, no, no, I'm gonna
do it, despite the fact thatother people sometimes thought
like maybe that wasn't thesmartest thing for me to do.
Molly (06:12):
What would you say is the difference between building a
movement and somebody declaringa mandate?
Eric (06:19):
Yeah, I think the movement versus mandate piece in my mind
me speaks to the synergy, uhlike, if it's a movement, there
is a synergy of kind of likeright person, right time,
catching a spark, because therewas already this sort of built
up momentum or built up energyaround something right.
(06:40):
So barack obama is a unique andsingular politician of his
generation, but he had to showup at the right moment, Right To
to, to catch the wind and thefire of oh my gosh, people are
ready for change.
Right, he, he shows up afteryou know two terms of George W
Bush, Right.
And again you talk about thesemoments and stories like my lead
(07:03):
up to even deciding to work forthe Obama campaign was that, as
a clerk, I read Barack Obama'sbook.
I read the book by Doris KearnsGoodwin Team of Rivals.
I read it that winter beforeabout how Lincoln, right out of
nowhere right this one term,small, you know, Springfield,
Illinois congressperson becomespresident at this time of great
upheaval.
And I also saw a one man showthat was touring, actually
(07:24):
actually from DC, about RobertKennedy and what he did, and I
just felt in my heart like I waslike, oh, like America.
I thought, in my own analysisbased on sort of all my reading
and thinking, was we needed tobe inspired again about what was
possible, that there was somedeep cynicism about government
in the wake of the Bushadministration and I thought
Barack Obama was more likely tocapture that fire because of who
(07:45):
he was, what he represented,versus the Clintons, who are
certainly deeply talented andqualified.
But I thought from a narrativeperspective couldn't catch that.
So this is sort of like righttime, right place and that those
moments happen and it can belightning in a bottle.
And I think mandates, bydefinition, they can't capture
that energy because it's muchmore of a static piece.
(08:08):
Right, you can't tell people,you can't say no, no, like that
person, or you can't mandatepopularity.
Would that we could.
I mean, you guys have worked inthese industries around brands
and design, but there are somany people who've thrown tons
of money at things or have beenthe smartest people or had, like
(08:29):
, been technically correct, hadthe right ideas on paper, but
have not won the moment or themovement because they are
lacking some of that je ne saisquoi.
Right, yeah, Bernie Sanders,like that was such a fascinating
moment of brand, right?
How is this old guy fromVermont who mostly has been an
independent, running fordemocratic president and
capturing the hearts and mindsof young people, and memes and
(08:51):
birds and doves are showing upon on his uh you know he's there
speaking, and I mean it felt itwas a moment right when we have
these tools now with socialmedia that I think allow us
sometimes maybe to add a littlebit more of a spark.
Think about a Bader O'Rourkewith his.
You know some of the talks hegave.
Molly (09:11):
So I think we live around to Whataburgers.
Yes, I love this guy.
Eric (09:17):
So what's interesting about these times is that,
because of the way we'vedistributed media in the hands
of individuals and now each ofus can be a producer or our own
brand um, in some ways it's it'sstill not really a a
meritocracy, but there is stillmore.
There's more distributed power.
Right, yeah, we talked about mylife in theater briefly.
(09:38):
However talented I was, ormaybe my roommate was, or
whomever like, back in the year2000, 2001, if you wanted to be
in a play or a tv show or amovie, like, you had to go
through the traditional channelsand a casting agent, a producer
, whatever, all had to say.
I approve.
Before your voice and vision areprojected to a lot of people,
(10:00):
and with the advent of youtube,instagram, other social media
companies, now, that momentwhere a tweet, a TikTok video,
something can go viral becauseit somehow hits this tone that
resonates with everybody, that'swhere these movement moments
are more interesting to me thanthe mandates.
The mandates can never and Iwill just be again specific.
(10:22):
I think a mandate moment thatthis is just one of the most
epic failures.
Right is the Pepsi commercialwith the Kardashian.
Right, where they tried to doyou know the Pepsi handed to the
cop with all the people, ohyeah.
Molly (10:35):
Kendall Jenner I think it was.
Eric (10:36):
Sure, sorry.
Yes, yes, yes.
J.B. (10:38):
She's a Kardashian too, I was close or close enough.
Eric (10:41):
I was close or close enough.
Right.
That was a, that was a bigbrand saying no, no, we'll
mandate and try to takeadvantage of the moment to like
to decide to surf on the wave ofthe movement and the movement
(11:06):
rejected it Right, because itwas inauthentic and it wasn't
there real.
Or these different things thathappen where suddenly people are
showing up on their own andfeel like they have agency and
can be part of something largerthan themselves.
I think it's really hard tofake that.
It's not that people don't try,and not that there aren't sort
of the grass tops versus thegrassroots, but I think those
moments are pretty special andthat's why we study them, that's
why people are so moved by themand that's why I think we also
have so much nostalgia towardsthem.
Molly (11:33):
So I'm on Sirius.
We like to start with a warmupcalled Hire, fire Boss, which is
really fun.
It's a quick fire game and theway it works is we give you a
hypothetical task and somefictional candidates to
accomplish that task.
So you must hire one, fire one,and one will be your boss.
(11:53):
Great Sounds good.
I love it Great.
So the task at hand is howmight we build a national
campaign to promote theawesomeness of Cleveland Ohio,
your hometown?
The team is all peeps from yourhometown of Cleveland Ohio.
You have Tracy Chapman,singer-songwriter.
(12:16):
Plus, if you need a fast car,you have Halle Berry, academy
Award winner.
Monsters Ball, also Catwoman,she's an X-Men.
And you have Kid Cudi, a rapper, singer and producer.
Let's go.
Eric (12:31):
I love this.
This is fantastic.
Here's what I'm thinking.
I think I want to hire TracyChapman because I think, you
know, she's a storyteller, she'sa singer, she's someone who
will, you know, create someiconic song about Cleveland or
can help us, you know, galvanizepeople, you know, a concert for
(12:54):
Cleveland.
So I definitely would hireTracy Chapman.
I think I'm going to fire KidCudi, mostly because I don't
know enough about Kid Cudi, sothat seems to be the natural
thing to do.
You know, listen, you know, I'msure, kid Cudi, mostly because
I don't know enough about KidCudi, so that seems to be the
natural thing to do.
You know, listen, you know, I'msure Kid Cudi has some things
to offer, but right now, youknow, I've got, I've, I've got
two incredible women of color toeither hire or have my boss.
There's no question, halleBerry is going to be my boss,
(13:17):
right.
Like she's, she's managed tocreate an incredible career for
herself.
She clearly can help us managea great campaign.
She knows how to do action, sheknows how to do drama, she
knows how to manage thelimelight.
She can take, you know, theRock and Roll Hall of Fame and
all those celebrities and helpus create an iconic concert for
Cleveland every year.
(13:37):
Not move that silly Rock Hallconcert to New York.
It should be in Cleveland whereit belongs.
And I know Halle Berry, youknow she's got the wherewithal
to make it happen.
Molly (13:47):
I love it.
I love it, jb.
What if you were designing orcreating this campaign for
Cleveland?
Who'd be your dream team?
J.B. (13:54):
Well, I'm going to take, I'm going to, I'm going to go.
This is going to be provocative, but I'm firing Tracy Chapman
and I love Tracy Chapman.
Wow, what Her entire brand isleaving town.
I know that is the story thatshe told, but she's timeless and
(14:17):
she's back and the story.
Eric (14:19):
Was it the Grammys or was it the Tony?
J.B. (14:21):
No, she's amazing, she's amazing, but her town is San
Francisco, eric, she is so I'msorry.
Eric (14:27):
what's the name of the town?
Again, I haven't heard of it.
That's the right response.
Molly (14:32):
Looking from.
Eric (14:32):
Cleveland.
You don't know much about SanFrancisco because you've already
lived in such greatness.
So I.
But I'd love to learn about SanFrancisco.
Please tell me more.
J.B. (14:42):
Yeah, thank you.
I am going to go with Kid Cudias boss.
Eric (14:50):
Ooh, yeah.
J.B. (14:52):
I have a lot of respect for producers and I also did not
know a lot about him until Istarted Googling him.
Eric (15:01):
I didn't realize we could Google him.
J.B. (15:04):
During this competition.
Eric (15:05):
I thought this was like trivia no smartphones allowed.
J.B. (15:13):
What are the steps to convincing people at scale to
rally around a common goal?
Eric (15:19):
So to me and I'll speak from, obviously, like a point of
privilege around, like whereI've been lucky to work at a
place like the White House, forinstance, where you have you're
already commanding a lot ofattention, but there's still
you're still trying to answerthat question, like how do we
drive attention towards thiscollective vision and goal?
And maybe I'll walk you throughthe process that I saw most
successfully run out of MrsObama's office.
(15:42):
And again I give tremendouscredit to her as both a deep and
deep thinking strategist, butalso someone who understood the
value of focusing on a fewthings and not trying to do
everything, which is, I think,another like probably like
mandate versus movement problem.
Like movements are reallyfocused usually and I think
(16:03):
sometimes people are like, oh,like let's try to do everything.
And I think sometimes peopleare like, oh, let's try to do
everything.
And I think Mrs Obama, reallybecause of her own authentic
brand, was like I want to dothings that are really deeply
authentic to me which, by theway, authenticity is one of
those key ingredients to amovement.
But she said you know what?
I'm only going to work onthings that are deeply authentic
to me and I want to figure outhow I can have the maximal
impact at this limited time thatI have in office.
(16:25):
So I think there's like theorigin piece right.
So, as you're designing whatyou want to be your movement, I
think having that deepreflection, or reflection with a
team and organization, likewhat's our why?
And like how are we uniquelypositioned to do this work that
no one else is, what's the storywe have to tell that no one
else can tell and how can wetell it in a way that may move
(16:48):
people where they might havebeen cynical or skeptical before
.
So I think, like the why is areally key ingredient there.
And then I think there's likethe tactics of how I learned at
least using some of theconventions of government to
build these movements, and Ithink this is actually where
there is more design andintentionality.
So you start with that reallydeep, you know, almost like
researching, scaffolding, lit,review of like what's out there,
(17:11):
our why, then like what else isalready out there, and then how
can we be a force multiplier?
And again, I think this was MsObama's secret sauce.
You think about let's move.
You think about retire, youthink about joining forces.
Now you think about let girlslearn, no-transcript government
(17:53):
to have an obesity task force,and then do research,
interagency note from thepresident.
And suddenly we then work with,yes, a brand agency to create a
brand and we come up with withlots of listening, talking let's
move, and let's move as anonprofit C3 partner in the
President's Council for Fitnessright, or I think it's HHA
(18:16):
Partners for a Healthier America.
And so what does that do?
That creates, I think, what Ithink of as a permission
structure for other folks inthat world to maybe kind of put
down their swords Like so manypeople that I discover in the
space are all fighting forcredit, but kind of all working
on the similar stuff and we wereable to, I think, with let's
(18:37):
Move to get people to say, oh,wow, like now we have a leader,
we have someone who is tip ofthe spear telling us these are
the three big things we're goingto go for and create these ways
to measure and to galvanize andhave us come together.
So that's sort of somemechanics.
I'll also talk about what we'vementioned before on movement.
I do think Mrs Obama deeplyunderstood the idea of the bully
pulpit and how the bully pulpit, from a storytelling
(18:59):
perspective and from a cultureperspective, is actually much
more important than, again, themandate perspective.
And I think this is where Ithink Mrs Obama taught President
Obama a lot about this right.
He and his team, who are noslouches on policy.
They might be right on themerits, but if they couldn't win
over hearts and minds, it wasin some ways irrelevant and I
(19:20):
think Mrs Obama had a deeperunderstanding of like, hey, it
doesn't matter how right I amabout exercise and healthy
eating, I got to make this cooland so that means doing push-ups
with Will Ferrell and going onEllen and doing something fun
with Jimmy Fallon or having aturn up for what viral video.
She understood that thesecultural moments were much more
(19:45):
important and let me again I'llsort of go back and forth.
I think this is one of thebiggest moments for Reach Higher
, when we had a Reach Highercampaign same deal, right, we
say hey, we're going to launchthis campaign.
We work with a branding agencyto launch a student-facing
campaign called Better Make Room.
I did a lot of Gen Z research.
We had a nonprofit partner thatwas Civic Nation and really
(20:08):
quickly we were like what's thecreative work that we can do to
come together and I worked withour comms team and with some
creatives outside of governmentand we worked with the team and
they created a video.
They basically wrote a rap songfor Michelle Obama to record
Jay Pharoah and it was her let'sgo to college rap video and
it's meant to be funny.
And we record this at the WhiteHouse.
(20:31):
We do this rap video, michelleObama rapping on a microphone,
and it's supposed to come outthat December and I remember
literally like Ms Obama's teamwas real stressed out about it
because it's like is this goingto be on presidential?
Is this going to be like whatare we doing here?
Well, out about it.
(20:51):
Because it's like is this goingto be on presidential?
Is this going to be like, whatare we doing here?
Well, it comes out and it goesinsanely viral and literally I
knew we'd hit somethingdifferent when, like rolling
stone, italy was like tweetingan italian about michelle obama.
Actually, michelle, you know,uh, you know flotus bars like
michelle obama, and people wereposting different photos of
themselves rapping to it and andso it just created this moment
where it suddenly had gone viraland it was just out in the
world.
So later, maybe like a monthlater that was December so, like
(21:13):
January, mrs Obama does aschool visit and she's visiting
with like third or fourthgraders it was actually a let's
Move event, it wasn't a ReachHigher event and one of the
students sees Mrs Obama and saysI saw you, you were rapping.
Mommy says I saw you, you wererapping.
And she says oh yeah, what wasI talking about?
She said go to college, right?
And that's that moment where,like, is that kid gonna remember
that?
Like we actually, because of ourFAFSA policy, we moved, you
(21:36):
know, $40 billion from banks tostudents and yada, yada, like,
no, but like is the cultural,you know, is the cultural
iconography changed because hehears the first female
African-American first lady whowent to Princeton rapping about
college, talking about beingfirst gen.
Is that more in his culturalbrain and will that sit with him
as he thinks about going tocollege or encourages other
(21:58):
people?
And so that's that moment toowhere, like, we can have, you
need to have, the blocking andtackling of a campaign, a bully
pulpit, policy objectives, a wayto harness the power of others.
But then also you do need tohave, I think, sort of the fun
and the cool and use that bullypulpit to try to inject joy and
(22:19):
levity and inspiration.
Molly (22:22):
In movements do you always have to have a leader or
a celebrity behind it?
Or you also talked about thepossibilities in a more
distributed world that we livein due to technology and sort of
a post-globalized state.
I'm curious do you need to havethat person behind it or not?
(22:43):
Thoughts.
Eric (22:45):
Yeah, I mean, look, this is.
You know.
I always tell people like, whatluck right and what fortune for
me in the world that MichelleObama wanted to take on the
issues that she took on andwe're better for it.
And to the extent that you canor will get a great ambassador,
that's the dream.
But I think the reality in thisdistributed world and we've
thought about it a lot on theReach Higher and obviously now
(23:06):
I'm a few years away from ReachHigher, but we remember having
this conversation like wait asecond, when will Michelle Obama
no longer be as relevant?
And do we need to have thebaton, the secession, planning
to think who's another celebrityambassador, who is the right
person to take on this work?
I always think it's great ifyou can have a tip of the spear
person recognizing that in anymovement and I've read about
(23:26):
this in the civil rightsmovement right, like you need
you need the lieutenants.
Right, it's not just MLK outthere inspiring people.
Like you need all these peopledoing different parts of the
work to make sure it gets done.
So so I, my very small tactical, is like, if you can get an,
you know, if Beyonce wanted tobecome the head of X on protect,
pick our policy.
None of us would say no to it.
But having again work with evenLady Gaga's foundation around
(23:54):
mental health, one superpoweredperson is also not enough.
We really need this to be theAvengers.
We need all the superheroes towork together, and that was true
in anything I've worked on,whether that's politics, mental
health, college access, puertoRico, you name it it.
And let me just go back becauseyou know, jb, you were talking
about the tactics.
I do want to say one other piece.
It's just very specific,because I think it's another
thing we learned in the obamaadministration and it's and it's
(24:14):
how you take these.
You actually combine themovement and the moment, and I
think, um, and this was aroundthe convening authority that I
think we recognized, that we had, and, and obviously it's
special to say you got a placeat the White House and it's an
address, but I actually thinkpeople don't realize how much
power they have to convene.
So this is sort of like if youbuild it, they will come right.
So Barack Obama right, he wantsto launch a $5 billion high
(24:39):
quality teaching campaign.
He wants to launch amulti-billion dollar early
learning campaign, et cetera.
He had all sorts of second termpolicy objectives.
Once we lost the house, that wasa lot harder to pull off, but
barack obama famously said Istill have a pen, I still have a
phone, and so what we did onthe college access side and we
did this twice, once with wheregene spurling led it and once
where actually was led with byme and some folks at dpc, the
(25:02):
domestic policy council,national economic council where
we basically said we were goingto have this college opportunity
summit and you know, we didn'thave any money, we weren't
giving away anything.
The idea was hey, collegepresident, if you want to come
to the White House and standwith the next two Barack Obama,
michelle Obama, joe Biden, jillBiden the ticket to entry is a
commitment to you know, thesethree or five pillars of work,
(25:25):
right, stem education, morefirst-gen students, solving the
under-matching problem, right.
We actually had these veryspecific pillars that we wanted
folks to invest in and we saidto come, you have to make a
promise, to make a commitment inone of these areas.
You're going to propose it.
We're not necessarily going tolet you in.
You have to say it's asignificant, it's new money,
it's a new commitment.
(25:46):
And when we first did it inJanuary of 2014,.
I think we got something like100, 150 commitments from
college presidents.
By the time we did it, thatDecember, we had over 500
commitments and it wasmulti-million dollar commitments
, it was multi-year commitmentsand to me that was I think I
might have been part of somecommitments you were, you were
(26:06):
you were, but that to me Icommitted, you did it, you made
a commitment.
And I just think, like sometimespeople are afraid and we're
still just in like our highschool or college party phase,
like oh, is anyone going to comeif I throw?
J.B. (26:17):
this party.
Eric (26:17):
Yeah, oh yeah.
And to me, I've done it at theWhite House, I've done it at the
Surgeon General's office, I'vedone it in my now new spot as a
CEO of a local foundation.
If you throw a party and tellpeople here's the ticket to come
, suddenly it goes from isanyone going to come to people?
Wait, I hear you guys are doingthat thing.
Wait, can I come?
Molly (26:36):
Yeah, how do I get in?
Eric (26:39):
That's certainly for those White House summits, the
College of Opportunity summits.
That's what happened.
It was like, oh wait, I need tobe there.
I hear everyone else is goingto be there.
What can I do?
And we began using thatplaybook for everything right.
Suddenly, we had an earlychildhood summit.
You know, a climate summit.
You know literally one of myfriends who's still in this
White House, the Biden WhiteHouse.
You know they had a CancerMoonshot Summit.
(27:00):
Like we learned.
We learned this playbook ofusing your convening authority
to help drive an agenda thatdoesn't require Congress but can
use the power of the WhiteHouse, the convening power you
have.
And again, I would tell people,you don't have to be at the
White House to have thatconvening authority.
And in some ways we're talkingabout movements.
That's what organizing is.
It can be as humble as a churchbasement having hot dogs and
(27:29):
hot tea.
Hey, like, let's all cometogether.
Like what could we all committo doing?
And that's now in my new role,which is now a very local role
as opposed to national, I'mtrying to take those best
practices and say, look, dc,like, let's all come together.
And we hosted a college signingday at Ka One Arena in April of
2024.
And I got Michelle Obama to stopby and surprise the kids.
(27:50):
But we got big commitments andwe announced a big, moonshot
goal for the city that by 2050,we want to erase the higher
achievement gap in Washington DCso that we have an 80% six-year
college graduation rate.
And I could have gone one by one, in person, by person, and try
to get people to sign mypamphlet, and I did some of that
.
But by having this big moment,by having an event, by having a
(28:11):
celebration with thousands of DCstudents, it just created some
enthusiasm, some excitement, andnow I've been at this job
almost close to two years, it'sso much easier for me to now
walk in the door with a partnerat the public school side, on
the charter school side, on thephilanthropy side, and people
are like, okay, it's not just anice PowerPoint, he's trying to
bring people together, he'sgiving away credit and he's
(28:33):
trying to further somethinglarger than himself.
And that, again, are some ofthose things that I find in my
experience.
The other part of the movementpiece is honestly distributing
that credit right, which I thinkgets in the way of movements in
the past or sometimes keepspeople from doing that convening
they're like well, who's goingto get credit for this?
J.B. (28:50):
For any kind of campaign, whether you're selling
toothpaste or healthy living,messaging matters.
How do you design and executecommunications that invite
people into the mission?
And then, on top of that, youneed this really clear call to
action, and so I'm curious, likehow do you think about creating
(29:14):
calls to action within thatmessaging structure?
Eric (29:18):
When I look back, when I think about the early part,
certainly like my first term,when I was really part of
education, like it really wasjust really smart, wonderful
people kind of in a room beinglike all right, like what should
we do?
Like what are we going to callit?
Like let's just go out thereand you know the five to 15,
maybe even 30 people in a roomjust inventing something,
(29:39):
largely absent.
What I think you know, you allcertainly have experience with
what I would think of as likedesign principles, right.
And then the magic right.
For me in the second term, andreally starting with the work we
did with, for me, reach higherand better make room was oh yeah
, there are people who areexperts at this and even if you,
you know, think you're a greatcommunicator or or or Maven of
(30:00):
some kind, getting people toactually build a thoughtful
design centered process, tobring in diverse perspectives,
again, actually work with abranding or movement agency to
help you do all the work tocreate a brand and a movement.
That is where I don't considerthat a mandate.
I consider that likeauthentically creating something
(30:22):
and trying to birth it into theworld.
So for us and I will give folksprops.
We work with folks like the.
I certainly work with folkslike IDEO in something and
trying to birth it into theworld.
So for us and I will give folksprops we worked with folks like
certainly worked with folks likeIDEO.
We also worked with for us forBetter Make Room, which is Mrs
Obama's student-centered part ofReach Higher.
We actually went to a firmcalled the Black Sheep Agency
and this is a little bit of afun creation story.
At the White House at the timeagain, you're learning by both
(30:45):
success and failure.
At the White House at the timeagain learning by both success
and failure we had a model ofhow to do get a.
You know, we have in-kindauthority with agencies where
you can get really wonderfulprofessionals and they can give
away their time for free throughan agency's gift authority and
basically say cool, whatotherwise would have been a
million dollar branding campaignwe're going to do for you
because we want to help thegovernment.
J.B. (31:13):
You shared this exercise that you did in your apartment
after 9-11, listing out thepeople that you admired the most
and finding common threadsbetween them.
Those moments of reflection,and really focused reflection,
have been so helpful for me, andit's a massive credit to your
younger self that you had thematurity to take that on.
If you were to do that sameexercise today, right now, who
(31:34):
are a few of those people thatyou would list as folks that you
admire and what are the commonthreads?
Eric (31:42):
Yeah, so again we're talking about this and I'm
really really lucky to work withsome phenomenal people, and so
you know when I think about ArneDuncan, you know Michelle Obama
, you know I throw like Murphyon there too, like maybe Don
Graham, ted Leonsis, like peopleI just deeply admire.
You know, first, with Arne, thatguy just has unlimited courage.
(32:06):
He is someone who tells thetruth, is willing to talk to
people who disagree with him,vociferously and literally walks
the walk right Like he couldhave gone and cashed out or done
a thousand different things,and he is truly like on the
streets in Chicago trying towork on the gun epidemic, trying
(32:28):
to help get people out of theunstable drug and violence
economy into like real jobs andinternships and working with
people who've been hurt by gunviolence and and help them, help
turn them into healers, and.
But Arnie is just someone who,like, in some ways I got to
shadow him for five plus yearsand I said this actually at my
goodbye party when I went to theWhite House At the time.
(32:50):
I think it was the En Vogue10,000 hours, malcolm Gladwell
thing how many hours do you haveto spend to become an expert at
something Between planes,trains and automobiles.
I probably spent at least10,000 hours with Arne Duncan.
And he's the real deal and youcan't fake that sort of courage
and honesty.
And at every moment, like hewasn't thinking about himself.
(33:12):
His question in any room waslike what's the right thing for
kids?
And he was willing to walkthrough fire, um, personally and
professionally, if it was theright thing to do and like just
had no.
He's sort of like theantithesis of what people think
are like, of craven politicians,like he just wasn't a
politician.
He's like I'm just gonna dowhat's right and had just almost
like a very simple, same thing,a very, a very simple gauge of
(33:35):
like is this the right thing todo for kids, then let's go do it
.
And, like you know, thepolitics will figure themselves
out.
And that was something that hasjust given me laser-like clarity
as I continue to age and growinto other roles where it's like
A, that that was really specialand unique, but B, that like
that is also a choice.
Like you don't have.
Like you can just be courageous.
Like you don't have to likethat's again, we can.
(33:56):
We can make choices about whatwe value.
So courage, and Arnie Duncan isone of my biggest ones.
For Michelle Obama, I would saywhat I admire most about her is
her authenticity, and that samething right, like if you think
about how effective she was atthe convention this summer or if
you've ever heard about herlife like that's not an accident
, right, you know I wrote sometweets about this after the
(34:20):
speech.
But number one, she practicesand reflects on things deeply.
So, like a speech prep happensmonths in advance and her first
reflection is like what's themost unique thing that I have to
offer to these people?
That, and reflects on thingsdeeply.
So, like a speech prep happensmonths in advance and her first
reflection is like what's themost unique thing that I have to
offer to these people that noone else can, that we need to
share with them.
That could, that could.
That's a lesson they need tolearn.
And then, yeah, she's willing tobe vulnerable and authentic and
(34:41):
say her truth.
And you know, we I rememberwhen we spoke at the Tuskegee
commencement, right, and shetalked about you know what it
meant for her to be the firstAfrican-American first lady and
told some vulnerable storiesabout how it felt and her.
You know the hurt that sheexperienced.
You know, going through theelectoral cycle.
Those are the moments thatbreak through, right, that
(35:03):
people talk about and why peopleare so moved by her is because
she's so authentic and becauseshe's so connected to who she is
.
And again, right, that takescourage as well, but I think you
know, I think about our arnie'scourage, just like put kids
first, michelle obama's courageand around being her most
authentic self.
Um, I mentioned vivek and Iwould just say it.
You know, this is in this worldof a crazy place, you know we're
(35:24):
all imperfect vessels, but, um,he might be one of the kindest
people I've ever met and I thinkthat obviously comes from a
wellspring of his own life andexperience.
But, and especially in a placelike dc, I have experienced
there are occasional people like, well, this is just the speed
or this is like there's gonna besome casualties, because, like,
we gotta get stuff done.
And you know, that's not thevague.
(35:48):
I think he really is someonewho, who, who made kindness a
personal and professional valuethat he lives up to and how he
sees and treats people.
And I just think much moreabout that in my life today,
because I think kindness and thelong game are deeply connected.
Right, we're like it's the old,like people forget what you,
what you said, but we'llremember how you made them feel.
(36:08):
And I think you know he'ssomeone who, I know, thinks
deeply about how thoseindividual moments, that every
moment might be that moment forsomeone of the make or break and
treating them withinterpersonal kindness is
something fantastic.
So, and maybe just last thingI'll say and then you know, I
(36:29):
know we're approaching time, but, um, I'd still take my dad, who
probably I don't know if thathe, maybe he made the first list
when I was 22, 23, but, um, youknow, my father passed away
last year.
He worked at a lab because heran a cardiology lab both in in
New York and Alabama and Ohiofor basically 50 years, and he
(36:50):
had sort of a set of his own,like Dr Waldo's rules for his
lab.
And I just have a deepadmiration for sort of the
wisdom that he tried to impartas a teacher, as someone who
really was so passionate andloved his job so much and was
able to make a difference.
And I think one of his ruleswas it's got gotta be fun to go
to work in the morning.
And I think I didn't, when Iwas a young person, didn't
(37:13):
appreciate how special it was tobe so excited about your job
and, like my dad, he loved doingwhat he did and I think that's
something that I think I'mpretty good at what I do and I
think I like it a lot.
But if I won the Powerballtomorrow, like I might do some
other stuff and I diversify Iwouldn't stop working.
(37:33):
But like my dad, he just hispassion for his job is something
that I deeply admire and Ithink you know, if you can mix
all these things together,you're probably going to have
happy at home happy at work,going live a good life.
Molly (37:50):
Eric, wow, I just want to thank you.
I feel like you've given us allpermission to be if we want to
be courageous, if we want to beauthentic, we want to be kind
and if we want to have fun andlove what we do.
I think that all, also all,sits under your value of like
passion over prestige and justthank you, thank you for for,
thank you for, thank you for allthe work that you do on behalf
(38:12):
of our students and oureducators and the nation, and
it's just so nice to bereconnected and have that chance
to be dazzled by you.
I just you're, you're, you'remy favorite movement maker.
Eric (38:24):
Well it's.
You guys are so kind andgenerous to invite me on.
I've been lucky to work withteams and fantastic leaders who
make these movements possible.
I'm happy to be one smallingredient in that larger stew.
J.B. (38:41):
And that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
(39:03):
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Eric (39:18):
I'm sorry.
What's the name of the town?
Again, I haven't heard of it.
When you're from Cleveland, youdon't know much about San
Francisco because you've alreadylived in such greatness.
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