November 7, 2024 • 37 mins
This week is election week in the United States, and power has shifted. So we're revisiting this episode with Ebele Okobi on the Dynamics of Power, originally aired on March 21, 2024. Take a listen and take good care out there.
"My interest in power is, how do I bring people with me? How do I use this power to create a more radically loving world?" - Ebele Okobi
You can connect with Ebele on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Mentioned in this episode:
- The Igbo have no king
- 2022 Venice Biennale
- Chinedu Valentine Okobi Sabbatical Program
- The Future Plate (African & Caribbean Catering)
- Loophole of Retreat symposium
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This week is election week in the United States and
power has shifted, so we'rerevisiting our episode with
Abella Akobi on the dynamics ofpower.
If you are feeling a change inyour own agency, this episode is
a reminder on how to understandand use your power for good.
Quick note since the time ofthis recording, abella has
(00:21):
shifted from the newhumanitarian to working at
OpenAI.
Take a listen and take goodcare out there.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
This is Unserious.
We've all complained aboutoffice politics.
Someone was able to influence adecision or get a project over
the line through the sheer forceof their personality or
relationships, but what are wereally complaining about Power?
(00:59):
Power is all around us and itfuels a lot of what happens at
work, and it's not alwayspleasant to deal with.
That said, we probably all havemore power than we think.
I'm JV Skelton, I'm here withMolly McMahon, and our guest
today is Abella Okobi, who wasrecently appointed as CEO of the
(01:20):
New Humanitarian, a nonprofitnews organization focused on
reporting humanitarian crisesand issues around the world.
She's also a patron of the arts, working on the boards of the
Young Vic Theater in London andthe Art Fair Freeze London, as
well as principal patron of theUK Pavilion at the 2022 Venice
Biennial.
(01:41):
She's a friend and formercolleague who was incredibly
generous with her wisdom aboutdoing business and shaping
policy in Africa and the MiddleEast, two regions of the world I
was unfamiliar with.
She helped our teams understandperceptions of Western
businesses, cultural nuance, howto develop relationships,
respect and credibility.
(02:02):
I can't think of a betterperson to discuss the subject of
power than Abella.
Welcome to Unserious Abella.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Thank you for having me.
What a generous description.
Let's dig into power.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
How do you define power?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
There are very many, many ways to wield power right.
So there's operational power,where you can sort of interject
yourself into a situation andmake something happen.
There is power that's not overt, where you're behind the scenes
.
I mean, I just think that thereare many ways.
There are many ways of wieldingpower, but again, essentially
(02:38):
it's like it's being able to getpeople or circumstances to move
in a direction that you want.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
That's definitely how I think about it as well.
I think about it as sort oflike that just the ability to
manifest change in the world.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yeah.
I think I would also say it'sconnected to systems.
So there's personal power, butthen there are systems of power
that operate such that peoplewithin those systems have
outsized power over others.
But it's the system.
It's not it's them as arepresentative of the system or
it's them as being privileged bythe system.
We're always operating withinsystems of power.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So how do you distinguish between having
strength and having power?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So I was raised in Sunday school, which of course
made me an atheist, slashagnostic.
But in any event, you hear thestory of Samson and Delilah, and
so Samson was the strongest man, and so then, but Delilah
bewitched him and then cut offhis hair, and so, in theory, he
had strength, but the power thatshe had over him, I guess by
using her feminine sexual wiles,which has other implications
(03:47):
but in any event, that powersuperseded strength, and so I
think there are ways that youcan be physically strong, or
even strong in other ways, butpower is a thing that is beyond
brute force, that cannot even bevisible, whereas strength, to
me, feels like it's somethingthat's more visible than power,
(04:07):
and power feels like it can bemore insidious and can also be
situational.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So how do you develop ?
You are somebody who has a tonof personal power and has
developed that.
You may shy away from that.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
It's funny, so I don't shy away from it.
I have always been interestedin power.
So, for example, when peopleask me what my favorite movie is
, it's hard to pick one favoritemovie.
But a favorite series of moviesI love are Godfather.
So I love Godfather 1 and 2.
Godfather 3 was terrible,obviously, but what I love when
I thought about it, there's thestorytelling and I think it's
(04:46):
beautiful.
Like there's this chiaroscuroabout the way it's filmed.
That's beautiful, but what Iand the acting, of course, is
incredible.
But what I love about it isit's this particular snapshot of
different types of power.
So I've always been interestedin power.
I've always been interested inhow it's wielded, and that
interest in power has beentwinned with this understanding
(05:08):
that it's not considered good asa woman and certainly as a
Black woman, to be interested inpower and it's certainly not
good to say that one wants power.
There's all sorts of negativeconnotations that come with that
.
I remain interested in power.
I think of myself as someonewho has been a student of it and
(05:30):
who has thought about how towield it, particularly because I
am in spaces where I'm notmeant to have power.
And also stepping into power isseen not only as something one
should not do, but as somethingthat is dangerous because of my
positionality.
So I've always thought abouthow to wield and the reason, one
(05:52):
of the reasons I'm sointerested in is because of what
I see as inequities in theworld and the extent to which I
can use power to up thoseinequities.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
When you're in a system that is not honoring your
power.
You know, I think about it inmoments where I might have to
influence somebody who isseveral levels above me in the
corporation Often it could be amale leader and I personally
have to think about like I haveto gather my energy.
(06:23):
So I come off real relaxed andco-bbert back, not leaned in,
you know, and so I'm curious howyou step into your power of
(06:47):
power.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So my joke is that.
So my I'm, I'm Nigerian, butI'm specifically Igbo, and so in
Igbo culture we have, like oneof the statements of our culture
is Ndibo Nweze, and what itmeans is that Igbo people don't
recognize Kings and so and so.
So for 3000 years Igbos did nothave hereditary monarchy do not
bow, and so one of the thingsthat you don't bow, so like
there are cultures where you bow, and in Igbo culture you do not
(07:07):
bow because there is this sense.
So there is a very strongthread of everybody.
So everyone has a personal God,everyone has a personal
connection to the divine, and sothere's a sense that nobody is
better than anyone else.
And so, culturally, I know thatI have this real allergy to
hierarchy or people who displayas if they have power, and so my
(07:31):
approach to it is to undermineit.
Just as a general thing, whichis the thing I've had to.
I have to think about if I'mtrying to get something done,
how do I do it?
In a way like knowing that Ihave this specific way of if I
see overt displays of power, I'mgoing to undermine it, I'm
going to disrespect it.
So I've I've had to think of ofhow, if I'm trying to get
(07:54):
something done, yes, I get that,that's my natural impulse, but
how do I move through that?
And so one of my things isalways relationship.
So I don't think of the personas their position.
If I need them, I think of themas a human being.
And what kind of relationshipcan I have with them such that
we can find areas of agreement?
(08:14):
So I don't see myself asappealing to power.
I think of myself as I rejectpower.
I reject this powerdifferential.
And how can I create arelationship with this person
such that we can find alignment?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I mean, I love that and I'm thinking about covert
power for good, and when I thinkabout you and being a patron of
the arts, I'm curious how likeare you spreading your like,
like covert power, wieldingskills in different ways for
other folks?
And, yeah, is that somethingI'd love to hear a little bit
(08:52):
about?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
that superpower, that super secret superpower because
that's the reason why I wasinterested in being a patron in
this space specifically becausedrinking, when you're talking
about fine arts, you're talkingabout patrons.
There are very few black women.
There are very few.
I'm not young anymore, but likethere's, there are very few of
us and so for me I was quitedeliberate, first of all about
(09:15):
bringing other people into it.
So, uh, so, for example, forthe venice biennale, uh, last or
the year before last, whenestonia boys uk had their very
first black woman, and so I waslike I want part of that, but
and also I want to bring peoplewith me.
So I brought a bunch of blackwomen to also be patrons.
We threw a party at the, wehosted a party at the UK
pavilion, but it wasspecifically a black party.
And one of the things aboutVenice is Venice is a very white
(09:37):
space, a very white rich spaceand so to be, and they never had
a patron say, yay, we're goingto throw a party, and then
they're like, oh, we're going toinvite like this.
No, no, no, no, no.
We're doing invites and we'reinviting a diaspora, like across
the diaspora of artists andinfluencers who are not the
usual suspects.
So I was super intentionalabout doing that, and that's
(09:58):
always been my approach withinthis space is how can you
platform artists and people whodon't get the platform and then
Well, I think that that's areally nice segue, because power
is not a zero-sum game.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
You don't necessarily rise to power by taking power
from someone else, although itcan work like that, I think.
One of the things that I'vealways found is that, by
platforming and sharing power,one of the nice benefits of that
is that your own powerincreases.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
My only interest in power is because I want to share
it.
I'm not interested in standingon top of a mountain, on top of
a bunch of corpses so I can saythat I made it my main interest
in power because I'm interestedin a radical reallocation of
power, I'm interested in a worldin which resources and
everything is shared.
I mean, basically I'm asocialist and so I, so that's so
(10:57):
when I my interest in power ishow do I bring people with me,
how do I, how do I use thispower to create a more radically
, more radically loving world,if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Back with more in just a moment.
This is a game we play calledHire, fire Boss.
We give you a fictional teamand you have to choose one
person to hire, one person tofire and one person who will be
your boss.
Okay, and today's theme isfictional leaders of the world.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
And beyond.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And beyond exactly Super excited about this.
So we have three fictionalpeople or characters Aslan, who
runs the world of Narnia.
We have Maleficent, the evilqueen from Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Or is she evil, or is she evil?
Were the conditions just set upfor her to be bad.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
There you go and Queen Ramonda from Wakanda.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
So fire Maleficent, she's out.
Sorry, she's gone, gone Hire.
It's hard to say Aslan, becausehe's a lion and I get that he's
a leader.
He doesn't have opposablethumbs, and I'm not saying that
I necessarily know that I needopposable thumbs in whatever job
(12:26):
that is, but it just feels likethat would be a requirement.
So got to be honest, I'd firehim as well, just because Sorry.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's speciesist, but that's.
And Queen Ramona I actuallysuper love her, but I would hire
her and then I don't have aboss because nobody's the boss
of me.
So that's where we're gonna go,yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Well, I guess I would have Maleficent is just drag
queen.
Fabulous, I think she's amazing.
I do think that she's probablymisunderstood Molly.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Yeah, I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt.
I do think she's misunderstood,but she's made some poor
choices that have affected otherpeople.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I've worked with a lot of Maleficent types and I
get them, but I don't want towork with them yeah, it's a lot
of drama and extra emotionalcare it is there's like, but
then also being evil, and thosetogether in a work context are a
drag.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, they are 100% Thumbs up.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, I guess I would be really comfortable with
Queen Ramonda as my boss.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I like working for women.
Outfits are amazing.
Number one Outfits are amazing,yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Exactly, yeah, I will straighten out her train.
So let's take this back to you.
Know you newly arrive atFacebook on a policy team
covering Sub-Saharan Africa.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
The country of Africa .
That was the first thing I hadto say.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I think that you had a really interesting way
of pulling your teams togetherthat looked different than the
rest of the managers I knew whowere building teams across
Facebook.
How did you do that differently?
How did you think about powersharing as you built your team?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
And they were coding, so one, so I.
When I started it was African.
I remember being told you know,first of all, you don't, you're
not going to really need a team, because no one said it was a
country, but they talked aboutit like it was a country.
So that was always.
Excuse me right.
Like, oh, you're just going tobe a country and it's like
different States, and so youonly need one person.
And so, but when I?
But when they did, when therewas the acknowledgement that I
(15:01):
needed to hire, there was theimmediate well, but you're going
to find it very difficult tohire because you know it's very
hard to hire qualified people.
And so you know, obviously thatis stupid, stupid, like it's
just so dumb.
And so so I was superdeliberate about saying I'm only
hiring people from across thecontinent.
And the other thing is I knewthat I represented a, that I my
(15:23):
positionality such that I wasborn in the U S.
I went to, you know, u Sschools, I went to Ivy league
law school that there was asense in which they thought I
was like a different using thickfingers, different type of
African, and so I was like adifferent, using thick fingers,
different type of African.
And so I was super intentionalabout bringing people who are
from the continent, went toschool in the continent, born
and raised in the continent, andour team was very much a
collective.
So there was very much thissense when you came on this team
(15:44):
, this was going to be an oasis,this was going to be a place
where being African, being bornon the continent, was not a
thing that would hold you back.
I was very deliberate aboutbringing people onto the team.
We were collectively deliberateabout creating a team ethos
that was about sharing power.
So there's a phrase called welive for the we and on our team,
(16:09):
we live for the we.
So it wasn't about individualaccomplishment, that all
accomplishment for every teammember accrued to the entire
team, so there wasn't a sense ofcompeting with people for it.
So I think this notion of powerbeing something that we have
because we wanted to share itand because we wanted to shine a
light on the region, and itwasn't about our individual
(16:29):
careers, it was about what wewanted to achieve for the region
.
We just had a completelydifferent environment on the
team.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Thank you for sharing that story and particularly,
you're able to have impact inways that no one expected and I
think that's like the edge To me, that collectiveness is like
it's the future, it's the nextedge, it's what's possible, it's
now.
One thing that you shared wasaround like sort of this
importance of love, energy andjoy.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
How does joy influence power?
It's funny, so I always call itlike.
My joke is that I'm a I'm ajoyful warrior.
So my uh Rich, who's my husband?
He talks about me in thecontext of being Nigerian and
being Igbo and he's like Igbopeople talking about me like if
there's a fight.
They will not progress past thefight.
They were like, even if theycould go past the fight, you go
(17:27):
directly to the fight, Like,even if you could bypass it and
like peaceful, like we're goingin we're going in this one, you
know, and so, and that I, I thathas been to my detriment in
some cases, but my point is thethe, the willingness to fight
does come out of joy.
It does come out of this um,this fierce belief that the
(17:48):
world can be better and that ithas to be better, and that we
are all compelled to keepfighting until it is.
And I also believe that youhave to have joy.
The joy is also resistance,right, like if you are part of a
community that's always underthe boot.
You can, you have to fight, butin order to stay in the fight,
(18:08):
you need joy, and so I.
To me, joy is inextricable fromresistance.
Joy is inextricable from work,too.
I also don't think point toworking if you can't do it with
joy.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's a big premise of how this
unserious crew came togetherwas just this belief that you
need to have a, you need to like, have relationships, have to
have some joy If you're going tosolve the toughest challenges
out there.
You can't, you can't do itwithout it, like it's just.
It's just, it's just not, it'sjust not even possible.
(18:39):
How do you recharge so that youcan?
You can come back in and sharepower, bring other folks along,
get back into the fight and becaring and influential.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I'm hugely about squad and so, for example, this
weekend, this week, has been aweek Actually, the past couple
of weeks have been a week and soI have a group of all Black
women friends.
We all live walking distancefrom each other.
Here in London We've actuallybought houses to be walking
distance from each other I loveit it's dope, and so we've just
been on a WhatsApp.
(19:24):
We're like this is a shitty week, and so everyone's coming to my
house for cake and champagne,like cake and champagne, so that
we can talk, so we canreconnect.
And I believe very stronglyagain, the collective,
collective energy is coach namedMarla, who's amazing.
She's an incredible coach.
I actually brought her toFacebook and she is still a
coach for senior people thereand during lockdown we did sort
of a senior women, because oneof the things is that once you
get to a certain level foranybody, but certainly with
black women you're at the, youcan't, you don't have peers
(19:45):
where you are, and so we createda peer mentoring group.
So we had there's four of usacross multiple different
industries and then Marla wasour coach and we would meet
every month.
That we met in person and so itwas very deliberate.
So it was coaching, but it wasalso peer coaching.
So I think of squad as it'stheir friends, there are people
who are friends and some of themare people I now consider to be
(20:07):
my, my sisters, but it's muchmore like checking in.
You know, what do you need?
It's because once you've seenlike one brand of fuckery, like
it's easy, you're like aha, Irecognize that and you can help
other people.
So we talk about stuff thatwe're dealing with at work.
We're like give me advice onthis.
And as people get more and moresenior at this point people are
very senior we have eachother's backs and we also help
(20:38):
each other with stuff.
You know like hey, I'm in, I,you know I I'm dealing with this
comms issue here.
How can you help?
Who can you introduce me to?
Speaker 4 (20:42):
So it's a network, but it's also just a very deep
sisterhood.
Yeah, I mean, I love that and Ido feel like, particularly in
the world right now I'm part ofa group called the super club
and it's just and it's, you know, it's a professional friendship
network Like we're just.
We're like are we a networkingnetwork?
And we're like, no, we're justfriends, we're a friend club.
But and that friend club letsus have a great time with each
(21:04):
other and coach one another.
But we're also all professionalwomen and so we have that
opportunity to also support eachother in spaces where we are
alone or struggling, or tryingto problem solve or go that next
distance.
And I think everything becomesa lot more possible when you
have that collective behind youand you have any of somebody, as
you said, who can like who'sbeen there, done that or can
(21:26):
point out to you.
You're like you've already beenthere and done that.
Why don't you try something newin that, in that, in those
moments?
So, yeah, yeah, I love that.
I love that vision of squad.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
You know, one of the things that you sort of touched
on very lightly with the squadwas that this notion of the
importance of rest, and you have, in honor of your brother,
created the Chinadu ValentineAkobe Foundation that funds
sabbaticals for people who aredoing the hard work of fighting
(22:01):
for justice and equality.
Tell us more about why youchose to fund the sabbatical
rather than the work itself.
I thought it was reallyinteresting.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Absolutely so.
First of all, I think rest isresistance, and it's absolutely
necessary for people who aredoing the hardest work,
particularly work around socialjustice, to have rest.
People don't really fund rest,and so what you end up having is
you have people in these spaceswho are often working in
difficult emotional conditions,who aren't paid, you know,
because they're not working atFacebook or whatever it wants to
(22:32):
call them Like.
They're not getting paid a tonof money and so they don't have
the opportunity to rest, theydon't have the opportunity to
step away, and so they don'thave the opportunity to rest.
They don't have the opportunityto step away.
And it was two things.
So one the two years.
So I quit in 2021.
I took two years off to chasejoy and realign with mission and
purpose, and it is the bestthing, one of the best things
I've ever done for myself.
So in that moment, Ireconnected to so many different
(22:55):
things as a result of that.
Rest is so foundational to beable to allow people to stay in
the fight, but and also to givepeople the mental space to dream
differently.
When you're in the middle ofcrazy stress, you don't have
room to dream, and in order todo social justice work, you have
to be able to imagine a worldwhere that work is not necessary
(23:18):
.
You need to be able to imaginecreative possibilities, and when
you're under the gun, you can'treally.
So for me and so for our family,because I this is my my mother,
who is an incredible humanbeing who, grieving the loss of
her, her baby, said no,regardless of, I will not take
money for his blood.
Any money that we get as aresult, I want it to be invested
(23:42):
in joy.
I want it to be invested indeep rest doing this work.
So it is a combination ofactually a lot of stories of
Black women who are eithersharing their own stories or
their own experiences, and thenjust the incredible courage and
power that my mother showed insaying this is what.
(24:02):
This is a decision that I'mmaking.
This is what I want my son'smemory to represent in the you
(24:26):
said you went out to chase joy.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
What'd you do?
What'd you run down?
What did you discover?
What, what like popped aroundyou or like what.
What was that about?
You know, I think, like I, thatintentionality in chasing joy.
I'm curious what happened.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah.
So one of the things that Itold myself is that I wasn't
going to be prescriptive in whatI did.
So I said I'm going to chasejoy, but I'm not.
You know, the eager beaver inme was like, well, maybe I'll
like learn, you know, finallyrelearn French.
I was like no, no, we're notdoing that, we are just letting
the wind take us.
And so the wind took me to theart space, and so that's when I
(25:03):
ended started being there.
I had been on a couple of boardsbefore, but that's when I
really leaned into being apatron.
I was basically a volunteerfundraiser for artists,
basically artists who are usingart as liberation practice.
I convened people, I did it.
I did a thing a three dayretreat where I brought my coach
(25:23):
in from California to Londonand we had three days.
I brought a caterer, a futureplate.
They do this incrediblybeautiful food that's influenced
by all of these flavors fromacross Africa.
And then we had sessions.
So we had sessions for women.
It was like 20 women and therewas, it was, it was deep rest.
So we had Lawrence who doeslike um, uh, aromatherapy, uh,
(25:48):
like sort of aromatherapytherapy.
We had Marla who to really dosome sort of deep soul work on
mission and purpose, and so itwas basically a retreat that I
was able to, to host, to createdeep restrooms.
So I did a ton of things likethat.
I did a lot of convenings, Idid.
So that was what I did.
I also, during that time, Ireconnected with my ex-husband
(26:12):
and then we got married again.
Wow, which is ridiculous, likewe had gotten a pandemic, but
like a super amicable.
We're very good friends, we'vebeen friends for a really long
time.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Well, what was it?
Was it like what?
What was it that brought youguys back together?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
well, it was more like so what brought us, took us
apart?
I mean so there, and this iswhy I think space for grieving
and space for joy is reallyimportant.
So there was a way in which Igrieved.
I mean there's.
So there was a way in which Igrieved.
I mean there's a way in which Igrieved um post, my brother,
that I didn't realize and I wasspending.
I was spending all this timewith artists, I was spending all
this time in artistic spaces,and I remember I went to Venice,
(26:52):
um, for the Venice Biennale,and Simone Lee, who's the U S
representative, created thisthing called loophole retreat,
which was transformational, sothat she's another example of
someone who took her power.
So you get the Venice Biennale,you're chosen.
No, you can throw a party likea super fancy party.
What she did is she's like, inVenice, as part of it, she
hosted this convening and itended up being, I think it was
(27:14):
300, 500 sort of black womenacross like the activist space,
the art space, the curatorialspace, like some of the most
incredible artists, and it wasthis convening and there was so
much there.
There's things that still staywith me.
There's one artist who talkedabout who gets to grieve so like
.
So if you think about themiddle passage, if you think
about slavery, you think aboutwhich bodies are allowed to be
(27:37):
mourned and so there was just alot so in spaces with people
talking about that and kind ofrealize, because of a woman I
met there that part of whatdrove me in my marriage was
because I was grieving mybrother.
And there's a way you can grieve, where what you do is you push
away the person you're mostafraid of losing, and I'd never
(28:05):
thought about that as an insight.
And so to have like to be inVenice and then in New York with
this person I'd met in Venicewho was like listen, babe, let
me share this with you, and ithad been hit by lightning, you
know.
So anyway, but I think that, tome, is part of if you have
space to breathe, if you haveroom in your head to disconnect
the things that you can realizeabout yourself, about life,
about connection, and thatsabbatical for me was, was all
(28:29):
of those things.
So, and this is why, and Iencourage, and I know that this
is also an issue around who hasthe power to do things like this
, who has the resources to dothings like this, who has the
space to do things like this?
Who has the resources to dothings like this?
Who has the space to do thingslike this?
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And your sabbatical is recently over.
It was recently over.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes, tell us about how you found your way to the
new humanitarian.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
The time that I took off led me A to sort of realign
with mission and purpose and toreally realize that what I want
in my life, the things that Ihad gotten in that I have gotten
into trouble before, have beenaround being a troublemaker.
So being I've been around beingthe person who's who's
completely comfortable withspeaking truth to power, who's
completely comfortable withsaying you know what, that's
(29:13):
fucked up and that shouldn'thappen.
Who's completely comfortablewith pointing out things that
should change.
And so, yeah, I found introublemaking a calling and
because I had that time torecognize myself or recognize
different iterations of myself,the job came to find me.
I was reading this thing thatsaid that you should be more
(29:36):
that we.
I think, particularly inworkspaces there's this
encouragement to model yourselfafter whatever a model worky
person is or a modelprofessional person is, and I
believe very strongly that,especially as I get older, to be
yourself, because if you're notyourself, what's for you can't
find you because it can'trecognize you.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
So I will say that this, the time off, helped me
recognize myself such that Icould be myself, so that I could
attract something that was much, that was so closely aligned to
mission purpose and who I wantto be in the world Tell us about
the New Humanitarian.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
How is it different than it Like?
It's a very different kind ofnews organization.
It's a very different news.
It was born from the ashes ofthe Rwandan genocide, and the
original theory is that thereason that went on so long and
wasn't addressed early isbecause there wasn't enough
information coming from theground.
And then, when information cameor when aid went, it wasn't
(30:37):
well informed and actually endedup exacerbating that crisis.
And so the point of it at itsinception was to give
information to those whose jobit is to prevent and mitigate
humanitarian crisis, such thatbetter decisions are made.
Humanitarian crises are notusually like a bolt of lightning
from the sky.
Humanitarian crises are almostalways caused by a series of
political decisions.
I think one of the roles thatTNH can play, or can continue to
(31:00):
play or expand, iscontextualizing humanitarian
crises so that people understandroot causes, and so that the
solutions are informed by rootcauses and not just the thing
that people are paying attentionto in the moment.
There is a very different way,there's a different sense of
urgency.
(31:20):
There's also a different senseof information and agency when
someone is telling their ownstory.
There's a very sort of classicway of doing disaster journalism
where the dude would fly infrom DC or from London and he'd
wear a pith helmet or whateverand he would talk to the natives
and then he would report backand you wouldn't have, you
wouldn't understand the context.
Right now, I think we're in amoment where the utility of the
(31:44):
new humanitarian is so stark.
So if you're looking at Gazanow, the other piece of
decolonization is understandingwhat you're dealing with is a
colonial conflict or a colonialstrategy.
So you will report on Gazaquite differently.
If, if you think gosh, it'sjust so complicated, it's just
like a clash of religions, youreport, that will be very
(32:05):
different than if you understandthe Balfour Declaration and you
understand the UK's role andyou understand like that, your
reporting is just very different.
So I wanted us to think aboutdecolonization as representation
, as people being able to telltheir own stories, as people
being able to provide their ownstories as people, being able to
provide the necessary context.
But and also it's the necessityof understanding when something
(32:26):
, when things are colonialstruggles, when there are
colonial structures that remainin place, there are systems of
power that remain in place thatcause humanitarian crises.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Bella.
This has been so enlighteningand such a great discussion.
If you want to learn more aboutthe new humanitarian, you can
go to the new humanitarianorgand abella.
Where can people find moreabout you and connect with you?
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I am on linkedin as my name abella kobe.
I'm also on instagram as myname abella kobe.
And then if anyone is a funderand is super excited about
independent journalism,particular independent
journalism from the heart ofcrises, please reach out.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
Thanks, Abella.
It was so nice to meet you andI love that you chased joy and
found love and so much more Yay.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's the best story ever.
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
It's been a fantastic conversation, thank you, thank
you.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Oh my gosh, that was an incredible conversation.
I've been wanting to bring abell on for a long time, and now
you know why.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Oh my gosh, thank you , thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Um, let's recap this.
So I think that one of thebiggest things for me was just
this reframing of the idea ofsort of building power and
gaining power and I think thatthat's a very cis-gen, white
male point of view on that andit's much more about and she
thinks about and framed it muchmore around cultivation of power
(34:04):
, and you do it through threereal things.
One is platforming the greatpeople around you and sharing
power through worthy programsand projects and roles.
She does it by developing squadand having space to learn from
(34:26):
peers.
She pulls people in and she'salso willing to be pulled into
other people's groups, which Ithought was really cool.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
The biggest point was just around, really under, like
, you can't really understandyour power without understanding
yourself and and really beingthat that most authentic version
of yourself, um, is what'sgoing to manifest change.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Yeah, I mean I.
I would also add that shethinks about power as
representation and how importantrepresentation matters and
being purposeful and intentionalin designing your teams, your
squads and bringing folks in fordriving change together and so
(35:14):
that you know how you find powerin decolonizing.
I think is really incredibleand I love what she said.
My favorite quote was if you'renot true to yourself, what's
for you can't find you.
And how important that is forchasing joy right now is you
know many folks are onsabbatical right now and
(35:36):
actually how those sabbaticalsare moments to reclaim your own
personal power.
So you're ready to share thatcultivated and set up everybody
else.
Yeah, yeah, the importance ofrest and I just I loved hearing
the strength in that and whatyou shared, jb.
I also loved that how you bringother folks in and
(35:58):
representation and looking atdecolonizing spaces as a new
form of leadership.
And maybe it's not even a newform of leadership, it's
probably the oldest form ofleadership out there and I just
I loved hearing that during ourconversation today.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And that's the show.
Thank you to everyone who hassubscribed, rated us and shared
our episodes, especially in theoff season.
You can be a part of thecommunity we built on LinkedIn,
on Instagram at unseriousfun andon our website, unseriouscom,
where you can find all of ourprevious episodes and show notes
(36:36):
.
This podcast is brought to youby Unserious Group.
We're also a comms andconsulting agency that helps
companies and leaders navigatethe rapidly changing workplace
by lowering the stakes andworking more efficiently,
creatively and playfully.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
And I'm not saying that I necessarily know that I
need opposable thumbs inwhatever job that is, but it
just feels like that would be arequirement.
This week is election week in the United States and
power has shifted, so we'rerevisiting our episode with
Abella Akobi on the dynamics ofpower.
If you are feeling a change inyour own agency, this episode is
a reminder on how to understandand use your power for good.
Quick note since the time ofthis recording, abella has
(00:21):
shifted from the newhumanitarian to working at
OpenAI.
Take a listen and take goodcare out there.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
This is Unserious.
We've all complained aboutoffice politics.
Someone was able to influence adecision or get a project over
the line through the sheer forceof their personality or
relationships, but what are wereally complaining about Power?
(00:59):
Power is all around us and itfuels a lot of what happens at
work, and it's not alwayspleasant to deal with.
That said, we probably all havemore power than we think.
I'm JV Skelton, I'm here withMolly McMahon, and our guest
today is Abella Okobi, who wasrecently appointed as CEO of the
(01:20):
New Humanitarian, a nonprofitnews organization focused on
reporting humanitarian crisesand issues around the world.
She's also a patron of the arts, working on the boards of the
Young Vic Theater in London andthe Art Fair Freeze London, as
well as principal patron of theUK Pavilion at the 2022 Venice
Biennial.
(01:41):
She's a friend and formercolleague who was incredibly
generous with her wisdom aboutdoing business and shaping
policy in Africa and the MiddleEast, two regions of the world I
was unfamiliar with.
She helped our teams understandperceptions of Western
businesses, cultural nuance, howto develop relationships,
respect and credibility.
(02:02):
I can't think of a betterperson to discuss the subject of
power than Abella.
Welcome to Unserious Abella.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Thank you for having me.
What a generous description.
Let's dig into power.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
How do you define power?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
There are very many, many ways to wield power right.
So there's operational power,where you can sort of interject
yourself into a situation andmake something happen.
There is power that's not overt, where you're behind the scenes
.
I mean, I just think that thereare many ways.
There are many ways of wieldingpower, but again, essentially
(02:38):
it's like it's being able to getpeople or circumstances to move
in a direction that you want.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
That's definitely how I think about it as well.
I think about it as sort oflike that just the ability to
manifest change in the world.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Yeah.
I think I would also say it'sconnected to systems.
So there's personal power, butthen there are systems of power
that operate such that peoplewithin those systems have
outsized power over others.
But it's the system.
It's not it's them as arepresentative of the system or
it's them as being privileged bythe system.
We're always operating withinsystems of power.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So how do you distinguish between having
strength and having power?
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So I was raised in Sunday school, which of course
made me an atheist, slashagnostic.
But in any event, you hear thestory of Samson and Delilah, and
so Samson was the strongest man, and so then, but Delilah
bewitched him and then cut offhis hair, and so, in theory, he
had strength, but the power thatshe had over him, I guess by
using her feminine sexual wiles,which has other implications
(03:47):
but in any event, that powersuperseded strength, and so I
think there are ways that youcan be physically strong, or
even strong in other ways, butpower is a thing that is beyond
brute force, that cannot even bevisible, whereas strength, to
me, feels like it's somethingthat's more visible than power,
(04:07):
and power feels like it can bemore insidious and can also be
situational.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So how do you develop ?
You are somebody who has a tonof personal power and has
developed that.
You may shy away from that.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
It's funny, so I don't shy away from it.
I have always been interestedin power.
So, for example, when peopleask me what my favorite movie is
, it's hard to pick one favoritemovie.
But a favorite series of moviesI love are Godfather.
So I love Godfather 1 and 2.
Godfather 3 was terrible,obviously, but what I love when
I thought about it, there's thestorytelling and I think it's
(04:46):
beautiful.
Like there's this chiaroscuroabout the way it's filmed.
That's beautiful, but what Iand the acting, of course, is
incredible.
But what I love about it isit's this particular snapshot of
different types of power.
So I've always been interestedin power.
I've always been interested inhow it's wielded, and that
interest in power has beentwinned with this understanding
(05:08):
that it's not considered good asa woman and certainly as a
Black woman, to be interested inpower and it's certainly not
good to say that one wants power.
There's all sorts of negativeconnotations that come with that
.
I remain interested in power.
I think of myself as someonewho has been a student of it and
(05:30):
who has thought about how towield it, particularly because I
am in spaces where I'm notmeant to have power.
And also stepping into power isseen not only as something one
should not do, but as somethingthat is dangerous because of my
positionality.
So I've always thought abouthow to wield and the reason, one
(05:52):
of the reasons I'm sointerested in is because of what
I see as inequities in theworld and the extent to which I
can use power to up thoseinequities.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
When you're in a system that is not honoring your
power.
You know, I think about it inmoments where I might have to
influence somebody who isseveral levels above me in the
corporation Often it could be amale leader and I personally
have to think about like I haveto gather my energy.
(06:23):
So I come off real relaxed andco-bbert back, not leaned in,
you know, and so I'm curious howyou step into your power of
(06:47):
power.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So my joke is that.
So my I'm, I'm Nigerian, butI'm specifically Igbo, and so in
Igbo culture we have, like oneof the statements of our culture
is Ndibo Nweze, and what itmeans is that Igbo people don't
recognize Kings and so and so.
So for 3000 years Igbos did nothave hereditary monarchy do not
bow, and so one of the thingsthat you don't bow, so like
there are cultures where you bow, and in Igbo culture you do not
(07:07):
bow because there is this sense.
So there is a very strongthread of everybody.
So everyone has a personal God,everyone has a personal
connection to the divine, and sothere's a sense that nobody is
better than anyone else.
And so, culturally, I know thatI have this real allergy to
hierarchy or people who displayas if they have power, and so my
(07:31):
approach to it is to undermineit.
Just as a general thing, whichis the thing I've had to.
I have to think about if I'mtrying to get something done,
how do I do it?
In a way like knowing that Ihave this specific way of if I
see overt displays of power, I'mgoing to undermine it, I'm
going to disrespect it.
So I've I've had to think of ofhow, if I'm trying to get
(07:54):
something done, yes, I get that,that's my natural impulse, but
how do I move through that?
And so one of my things isalways relationship.
So I don't think of the personas their position.
If I need them, I think of themas a human being.
And what kind of relationshipcan I have with them such that
we can find areas of agreement?
(08:14):
So I don't see myself asappealing to power.
I think of myself as I rejectpower.
I reject this powerdifferential.
And how can I create arelationship with this person
such that we can find alignment?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I mean, I love that and I'm thinking about covert
power for good, and when I thinkabout you and being a patron of
the arts, I'm curious how likeare you spreading your like,
like covert power, wieldingskills in different ways for
other folks?
And, yeah, is that somethingI'd love to hear a little bit
(08:52):
about?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
that superpower, that super secret superpower because
that's the reason why I wasinterested in being a patron in
this space specifically becausedrinking, when you're talking
about fine arts, you're talkingabout patrons.
There are very few black women.
There are very few.
I'm not young anymore, but likethere's, there are very few of
us and so for me I was quitedeliberate, first of all about
(09:15):
bringing other people into it.
So, uh, so, for example, forthe venice biennale, uh, last or
the year before last, whenestonia boys uk had their very
first black woman, and so I waslike I want part of that, but
and also I want to bring peoplewith me.
So I brought a bunch of blackwomen to also be patrons.
We threw a party at the, wehosted a party at the UK
pavilion, but it wasspecifically a black party.
And one of the things aboutVenice is Venice is a very white
(09:37):
space, a very white rich spaceand so to be, and they never had
a patron say, yay, we're goingto throw a party, and then
they're like, oh, we're going toinvite like this.
No, no, no, no, no.
We're doing invites and we'reinviting a diaspora, like across
the diaspora of artists andinfluencers who are not the
usual suspects.
So I was super intentionalabout doing that, and that's
(09:58):
always been my approach withinthis space is how can you
platform artists and people whodon't get the platform and then
Well, I think that that's areally nice segue, because power
is not a zero-sum game.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
You don't necessarily rise to power by taking power
from someone else, although itcan work like that, I think.
One of the things that I'vealways found is that, by
platforming and sharing power,one of the nice benefits of that
is that your own powerincreases.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
My only interest in power is because I want to share
it.
I'm not interested in standingon top of a mountain, on top of
a bunch of corpses so I can saythat I made it my main interest
in power because I'm interestedin a radical reallocation of
power, I'm interested in a worldin which resources and
everything is shared.
I mean, basically I'm asocialist and so I, so that's so
(10:57):
when I my interest in power ishow do I bring people with me,
how do I, how do I use thispower to create a more radically
, more radically loving world,if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Back with more in just a moment.
This is a game we play calledHire, fire Boss.
We give you a fictional teamand you have to choose one
person to hire, one person tofire and one person who will be
your boss.
Okay, and today's theme isfictional leaders of the world.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
And beyond.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And beyond exactly Super excited about this.
So we have three fictionalpeople or characters Aslan, who
runs the world of Narnia.
We have Maleficent, the evilqueen from Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Or is she evil, or is she evil?
Were the conditions just set upfor her to be bad.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
There you go and Queen Ramonda from Wakanda.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
So fire Maleficent, she's out.
Sorry, she's gone, gone Hire.
It's hard to say Aslan, becausehe's a lion and I get that he's
a leader.
He doesn't have opposablethumbs, and I'm not saying that
I necessarily know that I needopposable thumbs in whatever job
(12:26):
that is, but it just feels likethat would be a requirement.
So got to be honest, I'd firehim as well, just because Sorry.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's speciesist, but that's.
And Queen Ramona I actuallysuper love her, but I would hire
her and then I don't have aboss because nobody's the boss
of me.
So that's where we're gonna go,yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Well, I guess I would have Maleficent is just drag
queen.
Fabulous, I think she's amazing.
I do think that she's probablymisunderstood Molly.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Yeah, I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt.
I do think she's misunderstood,but she's made some poor
choices that have affected otherpeople.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I've worked with a lot of Maleficent types and I
get them, but I don't want towork with them yeah, it's a lot
of drama and extra emotionalcare it is there's like, but
then also being evil, and thosetogether in a work context are a
drag.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, they are 100% Thumbs up.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, I guess I would be really comfortable with
Queen Ramonda as my boss.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I like working for women.
Outfits are amazing.
Number one Outfits are amazing,yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Exactly, yeah, I will straighten out her train.
So let's take this back to you.
Know you newly arrive atFacebook on a policy team
covering Sub-Saharan Africa.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
The country of Africa .
That was the first thing I hadto say.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I think that you had a really interesting way
of pulling your teams togetherthat looked different than the
rest of the managers I knew whowere building teams across
Facebook.
How did you do that differently?
How did you think about powersharing as you built your team?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
And they were coding, so one, so I.
When I started it was African.
I remember being told you know,first of all, you don't, you're
not going to really need a team, because no one said it was a
country, but they talked aboutit like it was a country.
So that was always.
Excuse me right.
Like, oh, you're just going tobe a country and it's like
different States, and so youonly need one person.
And so, but when I?
But when they did, when therewas the acknowledgement that I
(15:01):
needed to hire, there was theimmediate well, but you're going
to find it very difficult tohire because you know it's very
hard to hire qualified people.
And so you know, obviously thatis stupid, stupid, like it's
just so dumb.
And so so I was superdeliberate about saying I'm only
hiring people from across thecontinent.
And the other thing is I knewthat I represented a, that I my
(15:23):
positionality such that I wasborn in the U S.
I went to, you know, u Sschools, I went to Ivy league
law school that there was asense in which they thought I
was like a different using thickfingers, different type of
African, and so I was like adifferent, using thick fingers,
different type of African.
And so I was super intentionalabout bringing people who are
from the continent, went toschool in the continent, born
and raised in the continent, andour team was very much a
collective.
So there was very much thissense when you came on this team
(15:44):
, this was going to be an oasis,this was going to be a place
where being African, being bornon the continent, was not a
thing that would hold you back.
I was very deliberate aboutbringing people onto the team.
We were collectively deliberateabout creating a team ethos
that was about sharing power.
So there's a phrase called welive for the we and on our team,
(16:09):
we live for the we.
So it wasn't about individualaccomplishment, that all
accomplishment for every teammember accrued to the entire
team, so there wasn't a sense ofcompeting with people for it.
So I think this notion of powerbeing something that we have
because we wanted to share itand because we wanted to shine a
light on the region, and itwasn't about our individual
(16:29):
careers, it was about what wewanted to achieve for the region
.
We just had a completelydifferent environment on the
team.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Thank you for sharing that story and particularly,
you're able to have impact inways that no one expected and I
think that's like the edge To me, that collectiveness is like
it's the future, it's the nextedge, it's what's possible, it's
now.
One thing that you shared wasaround like sort of this
importance of love, energy andjoy.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
How does joy influence power?
It's funny, so I always call itlike.
My joke is that I'm a I'm ajoyful warrior.
So my uh Rich, who's my husband?
He talks about me in thecontext of being Nigerian and
being Igbo and he's like Igbopeople talking about me like if
there's a fight.
They will not progress past thefight.
They were like, even if theycould go past the fight, you go
(17:27):
directly to the fight, Like,even if you could bypass it and
like peaceful, like we're goingin we're going in this one, you
know, and so, and that I, I thathas been to my detriment in
some cases, but my point is thethe, the willingness to fight
does come out of joy.
It does come out of this um,this fierce belief that the
(17:48):
world can be better and that ithas to be better, and that we
are all compelled to keepfighting until it is.
And I also believe that youhave to have joy.
The joy is also resistance,right, like if you are part of a
community that's always underthe boot.
You can, you have to fight, butin order to stay in the fight,
(18:08):
you need joy, and so I.
To me, joy is inextricable fromresistance.
Joy is inextricable from work,too.
I also don't think point toworking if you can't do it with
joy.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's a big premise of how this
unserious crew came togetherwas just this belief that you
need to have a, you need to like, have relationships, have to
have some joy If you're going tosolve the toughest challenges
out there.
You can't, you can't do itwithout it, like it's just.
It's just, it's just not, it'sjust not even possible.
(18:39):
How do you recharge so that youcan?
You can come back in and sharepower, bring other folks along,
get back into the fight and becaring and influential.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
I'm hugely about squad and so, for example, this
weekend, this week, has been aweek Actually, the past couple
of weeks have been a week and soI have a group of all Black
women friends.
We all live walking distancefrom each other.
Here in London We've actuallybought houses to be walking
distance from each other I loveit it's dope, and so we've just
been on a WhatsApp.
(19:24):
We're like this is a shitty week, and so everyone's coming to my
house for cake and champagne,like cake and champagne, so that
we can talk, so we canreconnect.
And I believe very stronglyagain, the collective,
collective energy is coach namedMarla, who's amazing.
She's an incredible coach.
I actually brought her toFacebook and she is still a
coach for senior people thereand during lockdown we did sort
of a senior women, because oneof the things is that once you
get to a certain level foranybody, but certainly with
black women you're at the, youcan't, you don't have peers
(19:45):
where you are, and so we createda peer mentoring group.
So we had there's four of usacross multiple different
industries and then Marla wasour coach and we would meet
every month.
That we met in person and so itwas very deliberate.
So it was coaching, but it wasalso peer coaching.
So I think of squad as it'stheir friends, there are people
who are friends and some of themare people I now consider to be
(20:07):
my, my sisters, but it's muchmore like checking in.
You know, what do you need?
It's because once you've seenlike one brand of fuckery, like
it's easy, you're like aha, Irecognize that and you can help
other people.
So we talk about stuff thatwe're dealing with at work.
We're like give me advice onthis.
And as people get more and moresenior at this point people are
very senior we have eachother's backs and we also help
(20:38):
each other with stuff.
You know like hey, I'm in, I,you know I I'm dealing with this
comms issue here.
How can you help?
Who can you introduce me to?
Speaker 4 (20:42):
So it's a network, but it's also just a very deep
sisterhood.
Yeah, I mean, I love that and Ido feel like, particularly in
the world right now I'm part ofa group called the super club
and it's just and it's, you know, it's a professional friendship
network Like we're just.
We're like are we a networkingnetwork?
And we're like, no, we're justfriends, we're a friend club.
But and that friend club letsus have a great time with each
(21:04):
other and coach one another.
But we're also all professionalwomen and so we have that
opportunity to also support eachother in spaces where we are
alone or struggling, or tryingto problem solve or go that next
distance.
And I think everything becomesa lot more possible when you
have that collective behind youand you have any of somebody, as
you said, who can like who'sbeen there, done that or can
(21:26):
point out to you.
You're like you've already beenthere and done that.
Why don't you try something newin that, in that, in those
moments?
So, yeah, yeah, I love that.
I love that vision of squad.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
You know, one of the things that you sort of touched
on very lightly with the squadwas that this notion of the
importance of rest, and you have, in honor of your brother,
created the Chinadu ValentineAkobe Foundation that funds
sabbaticals for people who aredoing the hard work of fighting
(22:01):
for justice and equality.
Tell us more about why youchose to fund the sabbatical
rather than the work itself.
I thought it was reallyinteresting.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Absolutely so.
First of all, I think rest isresistance, and it's absolutely
necessary for people who aredoing the hardest work,
particularly work around socialjustice, to have rest.
People don't really fund rest,and so what you end up having is
you have people in these spaceswho are often working in
difficult emotional conditions,who aren't paid, you know,
because they're not working atFacebook or whatever it wants to
(22:32):
call them Like.
They're not getting paid a tonof money and so they don't have
the opportunity to rest, theydon't have the opportunity to
step away, and so they don'thave the opportunity to rest.
They don't have the opportunityto step away.
And it was two things.
So one the two years.
So I quit in 2021.
I took two years off to chasejoy and realign with mission and
purpose, and it is the bestthing, one of the best things
I've ever done for myself.
So in that moment, Ireconnected to so many different
(22:55):
things as a result of that.
Rest is so foundational to beable to allow people to stay in
the fight, but and also to givepeople the mental space to dream
differently.
When you're in the middle ofcrazy stress, you don't have
room to dream, and in order todo social justice work, you have
to be able to imagine a worldwhere that work is not necessary
(23:18):
.
You need to be able to imaginecreative possibilities, and when
you're under the gun, you can'treally.
So for me and so for our family,because I this is my my mother,
who is an incredible humanbeing who, grieving the loss of
her, her baby, said no,regardless of, I will not take
money for his blood.
Any money that we get as aresult, I want it to be invested
(23:42):
in joy.
I want it to be invested indeep rest doing this work.
So it is a combination ofactually a lot of stories of
Black women who are eithersharing their own stories or
their own experiences, and thenjust the incredible courage and
power that my mother showed insaying this is what.
(24:02):
This is a decision that I'mmaking.
This is what I want my son'smemory to represent in the you
(24:26):
said you went out to chase joy.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
What'd you do?
What'd you run down?
What did you discover?
What, what like popped aroundyou or like what.
What was that about?
You know, I think, like I, thatintentionality in chasing joy.
I'm curious what happened.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah.
So one of the things that Itold myself is that I wasn't
going to be prescriptive in whatI did.
So I said I'm going to chasejoy, but I'm not.
You know, the eager beaver inme was like, well, maybe I'll
like learn, you know, finallyrelearn French.
I was like no, no, we're notdoing that, we are just letting
the wind take us.
And so the wind took me to theart space, and so that's when I
(25:03):
ended started being there.
I had been on a couple of boardsbefore, but that's when I
really leaned into being apatron.
I was basically a volunteerfundraiser for artists,
basically artists who are usingart as liberation practice.
I convened people, I did it.
I did a thing a three dayretreat where I brought my coach
(25:23):
in from California to Londonand we had three days.
I brought a caterer, a futureplate.
They do this incrediblybeautiful food that's influenced
by all of these flavors fromacross Africa.
And then we had sessions.
So we had sessions for women.
It was like 20 women and therewas, it was, it was deep rest.
So we had Lawrence who doeslike um, uh, aromatherapy, uh,
(25:48):
like sort of aromatherapytherapy.
We had Marla who to really dosome sort of deep soul work on
mission and purpose, and so itwas basically a retreat that I
was able to, to host, to createdeep restrooms.
So I did a ton of things likethat.
I did a lot of convenings, Idid.
So that was what I did.
I also, during that time, Ireconnected with my ex-husband
(26:12):
and then we got married again.
Wow, which is ridiculous, likewe had gotten a pandemic, but
like a super amicable.
We're very good friends, we'vebeen friends for a really long
time.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Well, what was it?
Was it like what?
What was it that brought youguys back together?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
well, it was more like so what brought us, took us
apart?
I mean so there, and this iswhy I think space for grieving
and space for joy is reallyimportant.
So there was a way in which Igrieved.
I mean there's.
So there was a way in which Igrieved.
I mean there's a way in which Igrieved um post, my brother,
that I didn't realize and I wasspending.
I was spending all this timewith artists, I was spending all
this time in artistic spaces,and I remember I went to Venice,
(26:52):
um, for the Venice Biennale,and Simone Lee, who's the U S
representative, created thisthing called loophole retreat,
which was transformational, sothat she's another example of
someone who took her power.
So you get the Venice Biennale,you're chosen.
No, you can throw a party likea super fancy party.
What she did is she's like, inVenice, as part of it, she
hosted this convening and itended up being, I think it was
(27:14):
300, 500 sort of black womenacross like the activist space,
the art space, the curatorialspace, like some of the most
incredible artists, and it wasthis convening and there was so
much there.
There's things that still staywith me.
There's one artist who talkedabout who gets to grieve so like
.
So if you think about themiddle passage, if you think
about slavery, you think aboutwhich bodies are allowed to be
(27:37):
mourned and so there was just alot so in spaces with people
talking about that and kind ofrealize, because of a woman I
met there that part of whatdrove me in my marriage was
because I was grieving mybrother.
And there's a way you can grieve, where what you do is you push
away the person you're mostafraid of losing, and I'd never
(28:05):
thought about that as an insight.
And so to have like to be inVenice and then in New York with
this person I'd met in Venicewho was like listen, babe, let
me share this with you, and ithad been hit by lightning, you
know.
So anyway, but I think that, tome, is part of if you have
space to breathe, if you haveroom in your head to disconnect
the things that you can realizeabout yourself, about life,
about connection, and thatsabbatical for me was, was all
(28:29):
of those things.
So, and this is why, and Iencourage, and I know that this
is also an issue around who hasthe power to do things like this
, who has the resources to dothings like this, who has the
space to do things like this?
Who has the resources to dothings like this?
Who has the space to do thingslike this?
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And your sabbatical is recently over.
It was recently over.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes, tell us about how you found your way to the
new humanitarian.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
The time that I took off led me A to sort of realign
with mission and purpose and toreally realize that what I want
in my life, the things that Ihad gotten in that I have gotten
into trouble before, have beenaround being a troublemaker.
So being I've been around beingthe person who's who's
completely comfortable withspeaking truth to power, who's
completely comfortable withsaying you know what, that's
(29:13):
fucked up and that shouldn'thappen.
Who's completely comfortablewith pointing out things that
should change.
And so, yeah, I found introublemaking a calling and
because I had that time torecognize myself or recognize
different iterations of myself,the job came to find me.
I was reading this thing thatsaid that you should be more
(29:36):
that we.
I think, particularly inworkspaces there's this
encouragement to model yourselfafter whatever a model worky
person is or a modelprofessional person is, and I
believe very strongly that,especially as I get older, to be
yourself, because if you're notyourself, what's for you can't
find you because it can'trecognize you.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
So I will say that this, the time off, helped me
recognize myself such that Icould be myself, so that I could
attract something that was much, that was so closely aligned to
mission purpose and who I wantto be in the world Tell us about
the New Humanitarian.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
How is it different than it Like?
It's a very different kind ofnews organization.
It's a very different news.
It was born from the ashes ofthe Rwandan genocide, and the
original theory is that thereason that went on so long and
wasn't addressed early isbecause there wasn't enough
information coming from theground.
And then, when information cameor when aid went, it wasn't
(30:37):
well informed and actually endedup exacerbating that crisis.
And so the point of it at itsinception was to give
information to those whose jobit is to prevent and mitigate
humanitarian crisis, such thatbetter decisions are made.
Humanitarian crises are notusually like a bolt of lightning
from the sky.
Humanitarian crises are almostalways caused by a series of
political decisions.
I think one of the roles thatTNH can play, or can continue to
(31:00):
play or expand, iscontextualizing humanitarian
crises so that people understandroot causes, and so that the
solutions are informed by rootcauses and not just the thing
that people are paying attentionto in the moment.
There is a very different way,there's a different sense of
urgency.
(31:20):
There's also a different senseof information and agency when
someone is telling their ownstory.
There's a very sort of classicway of doing disaster journalism
where the dude would fly infrom DC or from London and he'd
wear a pith helmet or whateverand he would talk to the natives
and then he would report backand you wouldn't have, you
wouldn't understand the context.
Right now, I think we're in amoment where the utility of the
(31:44):
new humanitarian is so stark.
So if you're looking at Gazanow, the other piece of
decolonization is understandingwhat you're dealing with is a
colonial conflict or a colonialstrategy.
So you will report on Gazaquite differently.
If, if you think gosh, it'sjust so complicated, it's just
like a clash of religions, youreport, that will be very
(32:05):
different than if you understandthe Balfour Declaration and you
understand the UK's role andyou understand like that, your
reporting is just very different.
So I wanted us to think aboutdecolonization as representation
, as people being able to telltheir own stories, as people
being able to provide their ownstories as people, being able to
provide the necessary context.
But and also it's the necessityof understanding when something
(32:26):
, when things are colonialstruggles, when there are
colonial structures that remainin place, there are systems of
power that remain in place thatcause humanitarian crises.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Bella.
This has been so enlighteningand such a great discussion.
If you want to learn more aboutthe new humanitarian, you can
go to the new humanitarianorgand abella.
Where can people find moreabout you and connect with you?
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I am on linkedin as my name abella kobe.
I'm also on instagram as myname abella kobe.
And then if anyone is a funderand is super excited about
independent journalism,particular independent
journalism from the heart ofcrises, please reach out.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
Thanks, Abella.
It was so nice to meet you andI love that you chased joy and
found love and so much more Yay.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's the best story ever.
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
It's been a fantastic conversation, thank you, thank
you.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Oh my gosh, that was an incredible conversation.
I've been wanting to bring abell on for a long time, and now
you know why.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Oh my gosh, thank you , thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Um, let's recap this.
So I think that one of thebiggest things for me was just
this reframing of the idea ofsort of building power and
gaining power and I think thatthat's a very cis-gen, white
male point of view on that andit's much more about and she
thinks about and framed it muchmore around cultivation of power
(34:04):
, and you do it through threereal things.
One is platforming the greatpeople around you and sharing
power through worthy programsand projects and roles.
She does it by developing squadand having space to learn from
(34:26):
peers.
She pulls people in and she'salso willing to be pulled into
other people's groups, which Ithought was really cool.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
The biggest point was just around, really under, like
, you can't really understandyour power without understanding
yourself and and really beingthat that most authentic version
of yourself, um, is what'sgoing to manifest change.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Yeah, I mean I.
I would also add that shethinks about power as
representation and how importantrepresentation matters and
being purposeful and intentionalin designing your teams, your
squads and bringing folks in fordriving change together and so
(35:14):
that you know how you find powerin decolonizing.
I think is really incredibleand I love what she said.
My favorite quote was if you'renot true to yourself, what's
for you can't find you.
And how important that is forchasing joy right now is you
know many folks are onsabbatical right now and
(35:36):
actually how those sabbaticalsare moments to reclaim your own
personal power.
So you're ready to share thatcultivated and set up everybody
else.
Yeah, yeah, the importance ofrest and I just I loved hearing
the strength in that and whatyou shared, jb.
I also loved that how you bringother folks in and
(35:58):
representation and looking atdecolonizing spaces as a new
form of leadership.
And maybe it's not even a newform of leadership, it's
probably the oldest form ofleadership out there and I just
I loved hearing that during ourconversation today.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And that's the show.
Thank you to everyone who hassubscribed, rated us and shared
our episodes, especially in theoff season.
You can be a part of thecommunity we built on LinkedIn,
on Instagram at unseriousfun andon our website, unseriouscom,
where you can find all of ourprevious episodes and show notes
(36:36):
.
This podcast is brought to youby Unserious Group.
We're also a comms andconsulting agency that helps
companies and leaders navigatethe rapidly changing workplace
by lowering the stakes andworking more efficiently,
creatively and playfully.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
And I'm not saying that I necessarily know that I
need opposable thumbs inwhatever job that is, but it
just feels like that would be arequirement.
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