December 19, 2024 • 33 mins
We all love a comeback story, and live comedy is one of the biggest to emerge from the pandemic. It offer us what we crave more than ever: shared experience, community, and levity. But how does that work in an era when social media has become a comedian's most begrudgingly important platform?
In this episode, J.B. and Molly talk with Danny Frenkel, founder and CEO of PunchUp Live, a platform revolutionizing how comedians connect with their audiences. From his roots in advertising to the grind of startup life, Danny shares what it takes to turn a creative vision into reality. This is a candid exploration of the sacrifices and rewards of following one's dreams, seasoned with wisdom on embracing creativity and the unpredictable nature of the entrepreneurial journey.
"Find something that you care so insanely passionately about that you're willing to put in all the work. Because, again, the only thing that I know is you've really gotta work hard." - Danny Frenkel
Check out punchup.live to connect with some of your favorite comedians, like Larry David, Michelle Wood, Roy Wood Jr., Tom Segura, and Aparna Nancherla!
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
J.B. (00:05):
This is Unserious At this point.
Most industries have foundtheir way back following the
pandemic.
One that's had an unevenrecovery is the performing arts.
While community theater andclassical music struggle, live
(00:27):
comedy and music have roaredback to life.
It's baffling, because all ofthese offer things that we crave
more than ever sharedexperiences, community and
connection.
But what may explain thedisparity is that, behind the
scenes, innovation is happeningin comedy and live music, and
with those new ideas comes afamiliar story of what it takes
(00:51):
to build something that peoplelove.
I'm JB Skelton, here with MollyMcMahon.
Hi we're joined by Dani Frankel,the founder and CEO of Punch Up
Live, a platform that's shakingup how comedians reach their
fans.
With a background in bothadvertising and entertainment,
danny exemplifies the modernfounder experience of
(01:13):
high-pressure, hustle and thejoy of following a passion and
trying to make it all work.
Welcome to Unserious Danny.
Danny (01:21):
Thank you, you forgot to mention.
Increasingly balding as I gothrough this experience of
starting a company.
J.B. (01:28):
Well, that's you and me both.
You're in the business of funnywith your startup at Punch-Up.
The comedy business is a newworld for us to consider, and
it's probably a new one for ourlisteners as well.
How has the comedy businesstraditionally worked?
Danny (01:44):
reach to have people know who you were and want to buy
tickets to see you was bygetting a special on Comedy
(02:07):
Central or some other televisedopportunity, so that America
would know who you are.
And then you'd have an agentwho would have a lot of
institutional knowledge ofknowing.
All right, cool.
This is generally who youraudience would be and this is
where you should go tour.
And what you're seeing in apost-pandemic world is that it's
following a lot more of thetraditional e-commerce model
(02:28):
where social media has replacedtelevision as the primary
discovery vehicle and kind oftop of the funnel opportunity
for getting discovered, and thenit's much more traditional in
terms of the purchasing flowfrom a conversion perspective of
then trying to move people fromthat initial discovery towards
actually buying a ticket on theticketing sites.
So it's kind of moved alongwith the rest of purchasing
(02:50):
behaviors towards more onlineand much less from traditional
media.
J.B. (02:56):
Is there still like that discovery of new acts and clubs?
Is there still a culture aroundgoing to clubs?
Oh, are you asking me?
Danny (03:05):
if clubs are a's, is there still a culture around?
Oh, I think it's only clubs.
Oh, are you asking if clubs area source of discovery?
I think I think that's a bigthing that's actually changed.
Yeah, you know, in the past youwould probably have clubs that
you just trusted to have likethe right comedian, so people
would probably have a reputation.
Again, I'm relatively new tothis whole world, so if
(03:27):
anybody's listening who's beenin entertainment for a long time
and is correcting me on thisthis is at least my sense is
that you know you would have abit of a tastemaker on the
booking side of a club, so youknew generally what you were
kind of getting if you went to aparticular club, whereas now
it's really about just puttingbutts in seats.
So everybody has a lot moreclarity on who has a big
(03:48):
following, because it's allpretty public on TikTok, on
Instagram, and that's going tobe the largest indicator of
whether or not someone can movetickets or not.
Molly (03:55):
I'm curious why Punch-Up Live?
Why comedy?
How did you get here?
Danny (04:07):
I was in New York for the first time, living there, and
started hanging out with thecomedy clubs a bunch and then
just met some of the comediansand one of them who actually
helped start the company, a guynamed Steve Byrne, I recognize
at a bar and was helping all ofthem just understand how to use
Facebook and then over time justkept up relationships and once
I left quote unquote Facebook ayear and a half ago now, this
(04:29):
was just something that hadalways been kind of on my mind
and something that I realizedwas a real problem and wanted to
solve.
Molly (04:35):
What are I mean?
What are comedians seeking fromyou, like when they are coming
to Punch Up Live, or what youknow what?
How are you, how are yousupporting their growth and that
reach and frequency for them?
Danny (04:46):
They're an e-commerce business.
They are.
They're trying to sell goodsonline.
The support structures aroundcomedians are still wonderful.
Agents and managers areextremely talented people and
none of them have any backgroundin e-commerce.
So if you're running atraditional e-commerce company,
you need a marketing department,you need an analytics
(05:08):
department, you need a financedepartment and there are a few
really big comedians that haveset up this type of
infrastructure around them thathelps them operate in this new
world, because they didn't getinto comedy or music where we're
intending to go next year topour through analytics reports
(05:32):
to understand what content thatthey're posting is helping to
drive ticket sales.
They got in it to be creatives.
So we're kind of trying tofigure out what this new support
structure and the right modelis to be able to operate in this
new world.
J.B. (05:48):
How many of the comics that you work with think of
themselves as in the e-commercebusiness?
Danny (05:54):
I think it's a constant discussion where, like I hear
from a lot of them, like itstinks for a lot of them right,
like the fundamental misalignedincentives that we are have
identified on the comedian side,um is, ultimately, social media
companies have advertisers astheir clients, but they need
(06:15):
comedians, musicians, creators,whoever else to create content
that they can then show ads to.
The problem is, they only arereally incentivized to show
content to people that they canshow ads next to.
And, as we all know from ourhistory on brand safety like if
you use profanity or talk aboutsex or talk about a range of
(06:36):
things that don't even fall intothe category of hate speech all
of a sudden you are no longercontent that they can make a lot
of money off of, and so,therefore, your content doesn't
really get seen.
Now, there's nothing like thereach that you can get on social
media.
There just isn't, so it's animperative that you leverage it.
But a lot of them struggle withthe reality that you know
(07:00):
they're putting stuff out in theworld that isn't authentic to
them, right, like they seeputting these clips out as
something that is identifiedwith them but, at the same time,
has to become muted.
So it's a real struggle, andsomething that I try to present
is like hey, if you were to goon the tonight show in 1991, you
(07:21):
wouldn't be saying you know,motherfucker on television.
So you need to kind of think ofit in a similar way and think
of it as marketing, not as yourcreative output.
Molly (07:32):
I mean, I don't know if you can give me almost like a
use case or a comedian you'veworked with or a team that
you've worked with, Like whatare you sharing back with them
and what are the decisions andchoices that those folks are
making?
Danny (07:43):
Yeah, I mean again for anybody with an e-commerce
background nothing here is goingto be particularly mind-blowing
.
I'd say we do have some reallycool stuff around the predictive
analytics side of things.
What Facebook is really good atis being able to collect what
they call internally is signalsright so what which then
essentially boil down to whatpeople want to buy right so what
(08:07):
which then essentially boildown to what people want to buy.
And they do that by being ableto understand what people are
buying, what kind of activitiesthey're doing on the platform,
what friend groups there are,and doing a whole bunch of
interesting analytical work tomake those predictions happen.
For live entertainers, it's avery interesting world because
they don't own any of their owndata.
So on the marketing side, socialmedia companies own all of
(08:28):
their data and on the conversionside, the purchasing side, the
ticketing platforms own all ofthat data.
So they're left with this worldwhere they just kind of know
they need to build up audiencesand then I call it a spray and
pray model, where they just postand hope that the right person
at the right time sees themessaging.
(08:48):
So what we're doing is sittingbetween the two entities and
sucking up as much data as wecan, but we don't have
advertisers as our own client.
Instead, we have thesecomedians, who we then give them
a series of tools so we canthen show them what are their
efficient acquisition channels,where are they selling the
majority of their tickets from.
We can show them what kind ofcontent is actually helping to
drive ticket sales, because,again, there's a real big
(09:09):
difference, going back to theads world, between people who
click on ads and people who endup buying those final goods.
And, on the social media sideof things, it's people who like
posts versus people who thenactually go buy tickets, and
they've never had this type ofvisibility to understand what
actually drives businessoutcomes.
And so that's ultimately whatwe're doing is replicating a lot
(09:30):
of the stuff that I learned atFacebook, but applying it to
this new world, where it's neverreally been possible before.
Molly (09:36):
Have you ever like with any of your clients?
Have you ever had?
Have you like?
What's that aha moment forcomedians where they're like oh,
or their teams like what, what,what is it?
Danny (09:47):
One that literally just happened is a very famous
comedian, one of the people thatI think is probably one of the
greatest comedians out thereright now, and it's still so
fucking cool that I get to workwith them.
Molly (09:58):
Um but I'm like I really want to know who it is, but I
know we probably can't say no,that's okay, I mean it's uh,
it's Mark Norman, so MarkNorman's one of my favorite
comedians.
Danny (10:08):
He messaged me, I don't know, a few weeks ago now, uh,
basically being like all right,we got to be moving some tickets
.
I got some huge posts that aregoing big, and I'm able to now
go into his dashboard and seethat tickets weren't actually
moving.
And the reason was that he wasposting grid posts which, from a
direct response standpoint,actually don't move a lot of
(10:29):
tickets, because it's a verylong conversion flow to go from
seeing a grid post to going tosomeone's profile, to going to
the link in bio, to then goingto the site, to then buying the
tickets.
And so we spent a lot of timefiguring out what the right
mixture of posting types are toactually end up moving tickets.
(10:50):
And so it was this fun thingwhere I was able to just send
him a screenshot back of hisdashboard and be like nope, not
moving here, and let's go backand look at the guide that we
put together in terms of whatyou actually need to do to
translate that level ofengagement into actual ticket
sales to translate that level ofengagement into actual
take-sales.
Molly (11:10):
So I do not have a background in advertising or in
social media or e-commerce.
So thank you for sharing moreabout signals and predictive
analytics and how it works.
But I'm also thinking aboutworking with Mark.
Is it like him and his agent?
I'm like who's in the room.
Is it just like an email backand forth?
Are you just sendingscreenshots of dashboards Like
(11:30):
what's the crew that rollsaround a comedian to help them
drive growth and gain viewership?
Danny (11:36):
It's different from every comedian.
Molly (11:38):
Yeah.
Danny (11:38):
So there are some that are really sophisticated and I'm
really impressed with, and thenthere are others where I work
directly with them.
And then there are others whereI work directly with them.
There are others where I spendthe majority of the time with
their managers.
Mark has phenomenal agents andmanagers, but I've become very
close with one of his managers,actually, and text him extremely
often, so it's kind of a grabbag.
(11:59):
I mean, I've spent the lastyear and a half really just
completely immersing myself intothe entertainment world to the
point where, like, I thinkpeople are a little sick of
hearing from me.
But um, you know, I don't thinkso.
J.B. (12:14):
You're so charming.
Molly (12:17):
I feel like you got a little like mischievous glint in
your eye.
Everyone's like.
J.B. (12:21):
Ooh, let's get in Like something something, something's
going to happen here.
Molly (12:25):
So I feel like, Ooh, let's get in Like something,
something, something's going tohappen here.
So I feel like, and if you andyou got the data side to it, um,
so, building confidence andmaking choices to drive your you
know, to drive your reach.
Danny (12:35):
So well, you know, there was something that was pretty
interesting when we started thiswhole thing, which was like I
knew there was a problem, but Iwasn't exactly sure what the
business behind it was.
And so people would kind of askme routinely like how do you
make money?
And I wasn't exactly sure whatto say other than like hey,
right now I'm trying to learnstuff and I'll let you know.
(12:55):
Now that I actually have thatanswer, I think everybody knows
to trust me a bit more, but Ithink there was some hesitation
there at first.
J.B. (13:01):
Yeah, here on Unserious, we'd like to kick things off
with a little game that we callHire, fire Boss, where you get
to pick among a fictional teamand a fictional task one person
to hire, one person to fire andone person to be your boss.
(13:22):
The category for this one isMake Me Laugh Comedy Legends.
The category for this one isMake Me Laugh Comedy Legends,
and the task for this one isthat Apple Music has entered a
partnership with Punch-Up anddecided to relaunch live comedy
on the platform with audio andvideo.
The team that you'll be workingwith is Joan Rivers, carol
(13:43):
Burnett and Richard Pryor.
You have to pick one to hire,one to fire and one to be your
boss.
Danny (13:55):
I mean, how much older are you than me?
Substantially like what yeah,I'll just say this is not the
most comedy.
J.B. (14:05):
I mean, these are sure, sure, sure, carol Burnett.
Danny (14:08):
I, literally I might have to Google like exactly.
J.B. (14:11):
Are you not quite sure who Joan Rivers or Richard Pryor is
?
No, I know.
Danny (14:14):
Joan Rivers and I got Richard Pryor, carol Burnett,
I'm going to kill, just becauseI genuinely don't feel like I
know much.
Yeah, is that not what I'msupposed to do?
What are the options you?
J.B. (14:26):
hire you fire.
Danny (14:27):
Sorry, you make somebody your boss.
J.B. (14:31):
I'm using the games.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see whatyou did there For the record.
Danny (14:35):
I was going to have sex with Richard Pryor, but we'll
save that one for a differentgame, I guess.
Yeah, I will fire Carol Burnettfor the same general reasoning,
because you know, if you'refired it's essentially the same
(14:58):
as you know, dying in my life.
I will hire, um uh, joan Rivers, although she's had some pretty
unsavory things about MichelleObama at the end of her life,
which really made me questionthat I did not know that.
J.B. (15:09):
Yeah, I didn't really follow her after like the E
years.
Danny (15:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And Richard Pryor, I guess Iwould make my boss just because
I feel like he'd be doing a lotof drugs.
And let me have a lot ofautonomy.
J.B. (15:22):
Brewster's Millions.
Danny (15:24):
Love Brewster's Millions, one of my favorite movies of
all time.
In fact, I think about it veryfrequently, of like how I would
solve that problem, I probablywould fire Joan Rivers.
I didn't know.
I was supposed to ask you.
Sorry, go ahead.
J.B. (15:41):
You don't have to ask me.
I was going to answer anyway.
Fire, joan Rivers, hire RichardPryor ask me.
Yeah, okay, I was gonna answeranyway.
Um, fire, joan rivers, hirerichard pryor and probably make
carol burnett my boss I lookforward to researching carol
burnett so that I can speak.
You should more intelligently asto whether or not she should be
my boss I think, as somebodywho works in comedy, that you
(16:03):
should figure out who carolburnett is.
I know the name.
That's that's something thatthat's something that you should
.
What was who Carol Burnett is?
I know the name.
That's something that youshould be.
Danny (16:09):
What was she?
Tell me, give me her.
J.B. (16:11):
The Carol Burnett Show.
Yeah, she did sketch, not standup, so Okay, but she's kind of
what was the last?
Danny (16:20):
What's the last Hollywood credit that Carol Burnett had?
J.B. (16:24):
Palm Royale Okay, this last year.
She's still alive.
She's still alive.
She just was on Apple TV.
Danny (16:35):
Oh, I know, Carol Burnett , yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I
mean I don't yeah, okay.
J.B. (16:42):
Clearly you don't really know, carol.
Danny (16:44):
Burnett, I don't really know her.
No, no, no, she's on BetterCall Saul.
Mad about you.
Great Toy Story 4.
Excellent, we should have justsaid she was in Toy Story 4 and
it would have been like oh, Iget it now.
Molly (17:00):
I think in that like product market fit phase, you're
learning a lot.
You got to adapt, you've got azillion things on your list to
do and then people are like whatare you doing here?
Cause you're also figuring outwhat you're doing here.
Do you have wisdom for otherfolks when they're in that mode
of being a little bit of astartup, figuring out the
business, figuring out theproduct fit, like how do you
take care of yourself?
(17:20):
I think you know the ADD andbeing able to like, manage chaos
is probably a real superpowerin those moments.
Like any wisdom for folks whenthey're in that time?
Danny (17:28):
So I think two things.
I think one I love comedy andmusic.
Molly (17:33):
Yeah.
Danny (17:34):
And eventually podcasting .
Molly (17:36):
So get in here, buddy yeah.
Danny (17:41):
It is the craziest thing I've ever done by far.
Like I just look back on likethe times where I was at
Facebook and I was like, oh,this is so hard and I'm like
that was fucking a cakewalk, itis insane.
So the one thing is like I lovethis stuff and it's so fun and
I, like you know right before,like I was literally texting
with another comedian I love SamMorrell Like as we were getting
(18:03):
this thing started, like it'sjust so fun, like I get to talk
to these people and like I love,I love being in comedy.
So I don't think that if I werestarting a company doing
accounting work, that I wouldpossibly survive.
J.B. (18:15):
Well, you have to put yourself out there Like you're
selling yourself and it's notfun Totally.
Danny (18:23):
And it's intense.
The interesting thing is I meanit's when you say it's not fun,
it is intense, it is the mostfun imaginable, like the
weirdest thing that I stillcan't believe.
I skied five days last year andI, previous to starting this
company, would probably measuremy overall happiness by how many
days of skiing I got in.
If you would have told me threeyears ago that I got five days
(18:45):
of skiing, you would have toprobably just start force
feeding me some kind ofmedication or something, like I
would be really, really in a badplace.
I'm so happy that I only skiedfive days because I got to work
the other 360 days and like Ireally did and I even worked
those five days that I wasskiing I love this.
Like I am obsessed with it.
It's definitely unhealthy, but,like I am, there's nothing in
(19:07):
the world that I want to do morethan work, which is insane.
The thing that I'll say aboutour business, which I think is
very different than a lot ofother businesses and something
that is a point of interest,I'll put it when you deal with
people who evaluate startups.
I see there's two differentmodels for starting a company.
(19:27):
The first is you are starting abetter version of something
that already exists and that issomething that is very easy for
venture capitalists or evencustomers to understand.
Right, it's like you're using.
You're using MailChimp rightnow.
I have a better email marketingsolution that is going to
deliver things quicker and it'sgoing to give you more guidance,
(19:51):
and you're paying them $300 amonth.
Pay me 250.
Yeah, that is fine.
I mean, if you get me a littledrunk, I'll tell you my honest
opinions on that type of thing.
I got thoughts, yeah.
But then there's this othertype of business where it's like
this thing has never reallyexisted before and you kind of
(20:13):
just have to have a bunch ofpeople who really trust you to
figure it all out, which isessentially a thing where, like
when I was pitching investorslast year yeah, probably about a
year ago it had to kind of beall about belief because I
didn't really know what I wasdoing.
Like a lot of this stuff kindof happened as I was learning
(20:33):
more and more about the industry.
I came in with a hypothesis,but like it was a very
elementary one.
Um, and we've done like I'm sounbelievably proud of, like the
team that we put together andhow much shit we like it's just,
it is like a truly like a lifething.
Molly (20:50):
I have a question Like um , so I spent I spent some time
in um in the innovation space,and a big part of innovation is
that you are presenting ideas orcoming up with solutions that
maybe didn't exist before, butyou do have to convince people
that this new idea, do have toconvince people that this new
idea.
You have to convince peoplearound this new idea and they
don't.
They don't know what it is yet.
(21:11):
How do you do that?
How?
How do you persuade?
Are you using data?
Are you using storytelling?
Are you using passion?
Like?
We have this awesome coach,courtney Kaplan, who works with,
I think, several of us on thecall.
You might even know Courtneyfrom your Facebook days, but she
has, she, she.
She recently shared a sayingwith me.
She was like words make worldsand so, like you, you almost
(21:34):
have to will things intoexistence, but you have to put
words behind it, and I like justhearing that.
Like having to sell folks onsomething that's never existed
before.
How do you do it?
Danny (21:45):
I just spend a lot of time thinking about it.
To be honest, it's one of thesethings that's what's that
saying where it's like you can't.
You can connect the dots.
Looking back, but you can'tfigure out looking forward or
something.
I don't know what that is, butthat's kind of it where there's
just been one or twoconversations that I had that
lit off a light.
I like one of the cornerstonesof the entire business.
(22:07):
Essentially because I firstcame at this from a data privacy
perspective.
Where I was in a meeting atfacebook and I remember, as we
were figuring out kind of thefuture data privacy, somebody
said like the only durableidentifier on the internet is
email and I was like, all right,who doesn't have emails?
So we actually started off as away for just helping folks
collect emails.
And then I was in a meetingwith an agent who mentioned like
(22:32):
the analytics products they hadand I took a look at it and I
was like, oh my god, these areterrible.
And then I was like, well, weactually have a lot of this
stuff already.
Like we and I went for a run andthen I came back and I like
wrote this whole manifesto tothe team, that the team took it
and ran with it and I just gotpretty lucky.
Uh, this great guy who worked inFacebook uh was available and
like started joining the team,was able to spin up a lot of
(22:53):
this insights work.
So I wasn't really even pitchingthat that we were at the very
early stages of even thinkingabout it when I raised money
last year.
Um, so I it's just it's so muchluck, to be honest, like it's,
it's the combination of justlike constantly thinking about
things, really really tryinghard and uh, then luck, like
(23:15):
again, I can't really talk aboutit at the moment, but like, the
reason why I bagged one of myeyes is we have this huge thing
that is going on for the companyright now in a really positive
way that I it's just like it'scrazy the timing of it all and I
couldn't have predicted it.
It's completely out of mycontrol and that's the hard part
with all this stuff.
You know you can kind of willsome level of luck to your side,
(23:37):
but you need a lot of it tohave it all kind of work out,
and so far so good, althoughwe'll see if I'm chasing it.
Molly (23:45):
What is rattling through my brain right now is one going
from data privacy to comedy.
Like to me.
I'm like, like.
In my mind I was like okay, soElon Musk is sending like
rockets into space.
People had already done thatbefore.
I don't know if anybody hadgone from data privacy to comedy
before.
So just even thinking aboutthat innovation journey, I'm
(24:07):
like that's cool.
And then like, and then eventhinking about that you work in
this space of predictiveanalytics but you're having a
hard like the predictability ina startup and how you navigate
that.
I mean those are just reallycool tensions of just like life,
work and passion.
That I think that's to me feelslike the thrill of being a
(24:28):
founder, but also you don't getto ski as much and you got bags
under your eyes Like there's aprice to pay to be that thrill
seeker in that space.
Danny (24:39):
I really admire anyone who started anything like
anything at all, like I don'tcare what it is, it's just like
I really I think it's thecoolest thing.
But yeah, it is thrill makes itseem a little bit too exciting.
It's like a lot, it's funny.
I was talking to this guy who'sreally, really successful I
(25:00):
don't want to name him, but likethe coolest part about this
whole thing is how many peoplewant to talk to you.
Like I have like the presidentof a 24 television as an advisor
that just like I get to talk toand just have these long
discussions of you know what thefuture of entertainment is.
It's so cool.
And the people you get to chatwith it's just like it's.
It's that's a huge highlight.
(25:21):
But like some people really Ithink take it as through I,
friends, was up at 4 30 in themorning, just like all right,
what the fuck like, what's theright prioritization order here?
And like I am slowly, I thinkyou know, figuring out how to
get to some kind of equilibrium.
And this guy that I was talkingto, um, he was giving me
certain advice as well.
(25:42):
He's like you know, you gottakind of figure out how to stay
level with it all yeah and I wasyeah, what was your secret?
He's like oh, I didn't figure itout.
I ended up hospitalized at onepoint because I was just like
not sleeping, doing anything.
I'm like all right.
Well, how about I get someadvice from someone who actually
figured this out, as opposed toYou're like.
J.B. (25:58):
thank you, and I'm like yeah.
Danny (26:13):
Well, it my opinion.
Molly (26:14):
Do you think you I mean do you have like to get a
startup off the ground?
It is essential that you drivehard.
Danny (26:21):
Like you, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there's no, there's
no other way around it.
Well, I actually think that likekind of couple of years with
all the tech layoffs is likereally, what happened is the
bubble burst from easy livingright, like I no longer think in
from when I've talked to peopleat facebook like, and again, if
(26:42):
any, if this company doesn'twork, and then I have to go back
to facebook.
I always worked very, very hardand did very good work, but,
like you know, there was thissense of comfort, like like I
couldn't imagine that facebookwas going to be laying people
off in 2017 or whatever, and soI don't know if there is
anywhere where I think you cankind of, you know, not work hard
and get paid a bunch of moneycan you create?
J.B. (27:04):
like?
Are you striving to create anenvironment that is more human
in scale, Like right now you are.
You're working beyond a humanscale.
Danny (27:15):
Yeah, I make very little money and I work every single
day, from the moment I wake upto the moment I go to bed,
except for putting my kid tosleep, and I work seven days a
week.
So I don't, but I also want tobe doing it, and everybody at
the company works hard and theywant to be doing it.
But I will say that to succeedin this, I feel very strongly
and they want to be doing it.
But I will say that to succeedin this I feel very strongly you
(27:36):
have to work your ass off andwork harder than I ever thought
that I could possibly be.
I was never someone that wouldwork this many hours, or even
thought Again.
I measured my life by how muchtime I could spend doing all the
activities that I like, and nowI try to have as few activities
as possible so that I can work.
I both understand that I havelimits but also, like I
(28:20):
genuinely do believe that theonly way this thing is going to
be successful is if I reallyspend as much time as humanly
possible thinking about it andas much time as possible working
on it.
And you know this guy who saidhe was hospitalized.
He's working so hard, likepeople clearly do burn out and
clearly do push themselves, andI think there's probably some
amount of uh, humility that Iprobably need to approach this
with.
But like it hasn't happened yet, I wake up every day pumped,
(28:42):
yeah, just like full ofadrenaline.
I wish it didn't happen at 4 30in the morning, but like I, I'm
pumped I love that.
J.B. (28:50):
I love that, like I guess the point is it's like at some
point it feels like that can'tsustain itself.
Like marriages break.
Like you have your kids willget older.
They need more of you.
Like all of these things arerealities that will will come.
Like your employees will havemore lives of their own as well
(29:14):
more lives of their own as welland that will take up more space
in in their 24 hours of the day.
Is there a plan to evolve?
Danny (29:18):
from where you are now to yeah, I mean at some point.
You know once.
I assume at some point thiswill need to change, like I have
a kid and I have another one onthe way.
Molly (29:27):
I mean I I feel like to be able to wake up every morning
and feel super pumped and havelike an awesome family around
you is like that's a dream cometrue for anybody on this planet.
If you were to give wisdom toanybody else who's thinking
about starting a business anyother like you're out talking to
folks and gathering nuggetshere and there and being like
(29:48):
I'm going to take this one andthis one I am not going to take
I'm curious what would be yourpro tips for anybody who is
thinking about following theirpassion, figuring out the right
product, market fit and gettinga business off the ground?
Danny (30:01):
Listen, the easy answer here is like find something that
you care so insanelypassionately about that you're
willing to put in all the work.
Because, again, the only thingthat I know is you really got to
work hard.
Because, again, the only thingthat I know is you really got to
work hard.
But you know, I think it'sdifficult because I feel very
lucky on just like a lot ofcoincidences or just like
(30:22):
happenstance that ended upoccurring that allowed this to
be something that is, you know,so enjoyable.
So I don't know, I think thatyou just have to be prepared for
whatever the outcome is.
You need to really be matureabout it and re-glamorize this
idea of following your dreams.
But sometimes there's realconsequences to that.
I really try to live in realityas much as I possibly can, and
(30:52):
I think that's just kind of it.
So if you're going to do it,make sure that you're fully
prepared, go all in and just tryyour best to enjoy it, because
there's a lot of ups and downs.
But at least for me, I reallykeep trying to remind myself
like this has been a lifelongdream, and you know I'm doing it
, so fucking soak it in.
Molly (31:12):
I love it.
I just I my final reflectionand just like thank you, danny,
for being so real and honestabout what it, what it takes and
the moment that you're in inthis incredible business.
I remember hearing Mark Cubantalk and it was like Mark, could
you be a billionaire again?
And he was like, no, he's likeI couldn't do it again.
(31:33):
And he's like he's like I couldprobably be a millionaire again
, but I can't be a billionaire.
Because it's not.
It's not only like a mix of likeintelligence.
There's an intelligence piece,um, uh, there's an uh, there's a
passion piece, but he also waslike it's a luck piece and he's
like I was lucky, I was at theright place, right time, right
product and that's what got mestarted and I just thank you and
(31:57):
I'm so excited to see whereyour business goes and I love
comedy.
I think the world needs so muchmore laughter right now,
because things are terrible outthere and I feel like it's the
thing that brings us alltogether and we have to be able
to laugh so that we can addresshard stuff and move forward.
And so, if you are supportingthose folks who are carrying all
(32:20):
of us right now, thank you.
I think we need so much more ofthat, and they're so lucky to
have you on their team.
Danny (32:26):
Thank you, I'm so lucky to have this conversation with
you.
No, I agree, I think it's.
It's really nice getting towork on something that just
feels I'm sure people can spinit, but like, genuinely like we
are just trying to make peoplelaugh more, which feels like one
of the least controversialthings that you can aim to do.
So that means a lot, thank you.
Molly (32:44):
Yeah, thank you for joining us on Unserious.
J.B. (32:48):
Danny, how can people keep up with you and learn more
about your work?
Danny (32:51):
You can go to punchuplive or punchuplivecom, because the
dot live confuses people.
Check it out.
We have an app that's comingout shortly.
We've got a whole bunch ofreally good comedy that's coming
out.
Just go check out the site,enjoy it.
There's a whole bunch of freecontent on there.
You can just sign up for yourfavorite comedian's mailing
lists and then know when they'recoming down know when they're
(33:14):
coming down and that's the show.
J.B. (33:16):
Thank you for being Unserious with us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
(33:41):
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Danny (33:49):
Oh, I know, Carol Burnett .
This is Unserious At this point.
Most industries have foundtheir way back following the
pandemic.
One that's had an unevenrecovery is the performing arts.
While community theater andclassical music struggle, live
(00:27):
comedy and music have roaredback to life.
It's baffling, because all ofthese offer things that we crave
more than ever sharedexperiences, community and
connection.
But what may explain thedisparity is that, behind the
scenes, innovation is happeningin comedy and live music, and
with those new ideas comes afamiliar story of what it takes
(00:51):
to build something that peoplelove.
I'm JB Skelton, here with MollyMcMahon.
Hi we're joined by Dani Frankel,the founder and CEO of Punch Up
Live, a platform that's shakingup how comedians reach their
fans.
With a background in bothadvertising and entertainment,
danny exemplifies the modernfounder experience of
(01:13):
high-pressure, hustle and thejoy of following a passion and
trying to make it all work.
Welcome to Unserious Danny.
Danny (01:21):
Thank you, you forgot to mention.
Increasingly balding as I gothrough this experience of
starting a company.
J.B. (01:28):
Well, that's you and me both.
You're in the business of funnywith your startup at Punch-Up.
The comedy business is a newworld for us to consider, and
it's probably a new one for ourlisteners as well.
How has the comedy businesstraditionally worked?
Danny (01:44):
reach to have people know who you were and want to buy
tickets to see you was bygetting a special on Comedy
(02:07):
Central or some other televisedopportunity, so that America
would know who you are.
And then you'd have an agentwho would have a lot of
institutional knowledge ofknowing.
All right, cool.
This is generally who youraudience would be and this is
where you should go tour.
And what you're seeing in apost-pandemic world is that it's
following a lot more of thetraditional e-commerce model
(02:28):
where social media has replacedtelevision as the primary
discovery vehicle and kind oftop of the funnel opportunity
for getting discovered, and thenit's much more traditional in
terms of the purchasing flowfrom a conversion perspective of
then trying to move people fromthat initial discovery towards
actually buying a ticket on theticketing sites.
So it's kind of moved alongwith the rest of purchasing
(02:50):
behaviors towards more onlineand much less from traditional
media.
J.B. (02:56):
Is there still like that discovery of new acts and clubs?
Is there still a culture aroundgoing to clubs?
Oh, are you asking me?
Danny (03:05):
if clubs are a's, is there still a culture around?
Oh, I think it's only clubs.
Oh, are you asking if clubs area source of discovery?
I think I think that's a bigthing that's actually changed.
Yeah, you know, in the past youwould probably have clubs that
you just trusted to have likethe right comedian, so people
would probably have a reputation.
Again, I'm relatively new tothis whole world, so if
(03:27):
anybody's listening who's beenin entertainment for a long time
and is correcting me on thisthis is at least my sense is
that you know you would have abit of a tastemaker on the
booking side of a club, so youknew generally what you were
kind of getting if you went to aparticular club, whereas now
it's really about just puttingbutts in seats.
So everybody has a lot moreclarity on who has a big
(03:48):
following, because it's allpretty public on TikTok, on
Instagram, and that's going tobe the largest indicator of
whether or not someone can movetickets or not.
Molly (03:55):
I'm curious why Punch-Up Live?
Why comedy?
How did you get here?
Danny (04:07):
I was in New York for the first time, living there, and
started hanging out with thecomedy clubs a bunch and then
just met some of the comediansand one of them who actually
helped start the company, a guynamed Steve Byrne, I recognize
at a bar and was helping all ofthem just understand how to use
Facebook and then over time justkept up relationships and once
I left quote unquote Facebook ayear and a half ago now, this
(04:29):
was just something that hadalways been kind of on my mind
and something that I realizedwas a real problem and wanted to
solve.
Molly (04:35):
What are I mean?
What are comedians seeking fromyou, like when they are coming
to Punch Up Live, or what youknow what?
How are you, how are yousupporting their growth and that
reach and frequency for them?
Danny (04:46):
They're an e-commerce business.
They are.
They're trying to sell goodsonline.
The support structures aroundcomedians are still wonderful.
Agents and managers areextremely talented people and
none of them have any backgroundin e-commerce.
So if you're running atraditional e-commerce company,
you need a marketing department,you need an analytics
(05:08):
department, you need a financedepartment and there are a few
really big comedians that haveset up this type of
infrastructure around them thathelps them operate in this new
world, because they didn't getinto comedy or music where we're
intending to go next year topour through analytics reports
(05:32):
to understand what content thatthey're posting is helping to
drive ticket sales.
They got in it to be creatives.
So we're kind of trying tofigure out what this new support
structure and the right modelis to be able to operate in this
new world.
J.B. (05:48):
How many of the comics that you work with think of
themselves as in the e-commercebusiness?
Danny (05:54):
I think it's a constant discussion where, like I hear
from a lot of them, like itstinks for a lot of them right,
like the fundamental misalignedincentives that we are have
identified on the comedian side,um is, ultimately, social media
companies have advertisers astheir clients, but they need
(06:15):
comedians, musicians, creators,whoever else to create content
that they can then show ads to.
The problem is, they only arereally incentivized to show
content to people that they canshow ads next to.
And, as we all know from ourhistory on brand safety like if
you use profanity or talk aboutsex or talk about a range of
(06:36):
things that don't even fall intothe category of hate speech all
of a sudden you are no longercontent that they can make a lot
of money off of, and so,therefore, your content doesn't
really get seen.
Now, there's nothing like thereach that you can get on social
media.
There just isn't, so it's animperative that you leverage it.
But a lot of them struggle withthe reality that you know
(07:00):
they're putting stuff out in theworld that isn't authentic to
them, right, like they seeputting these clips out as
something that is identifiedwith them but, at the same time,
has to become muted.
So it's a real struggle, andsomething that I try to present
is like hey, if you were to goon the tonight show in 1991, you
(07:21):
wouldn't be saying you know,motherfucker on television.
So you need to kind of think ofit in a similar way and think
of it as marketing, not as yourcreative output.
Molly (07:32):
I mean, I don't know if you can give me almost like a
use case or a comedian you'veworked with or a team that
you've worked with, Like whatare you sharing back with them
and what are the decisions andchoices that those folks are
making?
Danny (07:43):
Yeah, I mean again for anybody with an e-commerce
background nothing here is goingto be particularly mind-blowing
.
I'd say we do have some reallycool stuff around the predictive
analytics side of things.
What Facebook is really good atis being able to collect what
they call internally is signalsright so what which then
essentially boil down to whatpeople want to buy right so what
(08:07):
which then essentially boildown to what people want to buy.
And they do that by being ableto understand what people are
buying, what kind of activitiesthey're doing on the platform,
what friend groups there are,and doing a whole bunch of
interesting analytical work tomake those predictions happen.
For live entertainers, it's avery interesting world because
they don't own any of their owndata.
So on the marketing side, socialmedia companies own all of
(08:28):
their data and on the conversionside, the purchasing side, the
ticketing platforms own all ofthat data.
So they're left with this worldwhere they just kind of know
they need to build up audiencesand then I call it a spray and
pray model, where they just postand hope that the right person
at the right time sees themessaging.
(08:48):
So what we're doing is sittingbetween the two entities and
sucking up as much data as wecan, but we don't have
advertisers as our own client.
Instead, we have thesecomedians, who we then give them
a series of tools so we canthen show them what are their
efficient acquisition channels,where are they selling the
majority of their tickets from.
We can show them what kind ofcontent is actually helping to
drive ticket sales, because,again, there's a real big
(09:09):
difference, going back to theads world, between people who
click on ads and people who endup buying those final goods.
And, on the social media sideof things, it's people who like
posts versus people who thenactually go buy tickets, and
they've never had this type ofvisibility to understand what
actually drives businessoutcomes.
And so that's ultimately whatwe're doing is replicating a lot
(09:30):
of the stuff that I learned atFacebook, but applying it to
this new world, where it's neverreally been possible before.
Molly (09:36):
Have you ever like with any of your clients?
Have you ever had?
Have you like?
What's that aha moment forcomedians where they're like oh,
or their teams like what, what,what is it?
Danny (09:47):
One that literally just happened is a very famous
comedian, one of the people thatI think is probably one of the
greatest comedians out thereright now, and it's still so
fucking cool that I get to workwith them.
Molly (09:58):
Um but I'm like I really want to know who it is, but I
know we probably can't say no,that's okay, I mean it's uh,
it's Mark Norman, so MarkNorman's one of my favorite
comedians.
Danny (10:08):
He messaged me, I don't know, a few weeks ago now, uh,
basically being like all right,we got to be moving some tickets
.
I got some huge posts that aregoing big, and I'm able to now
go into his dashboard and seethat tickets weren't actually
moving.
And the reason was that he wasposting grid posts which, from a
direct response standpoint,actually don't move a lot of
(10:29):
tickets, because it's a verylong conversion flow to go from
seeing a grid post to going tosomeone's profile, to going to
the link in bio, to then goingto the site, to then buying the
tickets.
And so we spent a lot of timefiguring out what the right
mixture of posting types are toactually end up moving tickets.
(10:50):
And so it was this fun thingwhere I was able to just send
him a screenshot back of hisdashboard and be like nope, not
moving here, and let's go backand look at the guide that we
put together in terms of whatyou actually need to do to
translate that level ofengagement into actual ticket
sales to translate that level ofengagement into actual
take-sales.
Molly (11:10):
So I do not have a background in advertising or in
social media or e-commerce.
So thank you for sharing moreabout signals and predictive
analytics and how it works.
But I'm also thinking aboutworking with Mark.
Is it like him and his agent?
I'm like who's in the room.
Is it just like an email backand forth?
Are you just sendingscreenshots of dashboards Like
(11:30):
what's the crew that rollsaround a comedian to help them
drive growth and gain viewership?
Danny (11:36):
It's different from every comedian.
Molly (11:38):
Yeah.
Danny (11:38):
So there are some that are really sophisticated and I'm
really impressed with, and thenthere are others where I work
directly with them.
And then there are others whereI work directly with them.
There are others where I spendthe majority of the time with
their managers.
Mark has phenomenal agents andmanagers, but I've become very
close with one of his managers,actually, and text him extremely
often, so it's kind of a grabbag.
(11:59):
I mean, I've spent the lastyear and a half really just
completely immersing myself intothe entertainment world to the
point where, like, I thinkpeople are a little sick of
hearing from me.
But um, you know, I don't thinkso.
J.B. (12:14):
You're so charming.
Molly (12:17):
I feel like you got a little like mischievous glint in
your eye.
Everyone's like.
J.B. (12:21):
Ooh, let's get in Like something something, something's
going to happen here.
Molly (12:25):
So I feel like, Ooh, let's get in Like something,
something, something's going tohappen here.
So I feel like, and if you andyou got the data side to it, um,
so, building confidence andmaking choices to drive your you
know, to drive your reach.
Danny (12:35):
So well, you know, there was something that was pretty
interesting when we started thiswhole thing, which was like I
knew there was a problem, but Iwasn't exactly sure what the
business behind it was.
And so people would kind of askme routinely like how do you
make money?
And I wasn't exactly sure whatto say other than like hey,
right now I'm trying to learnstuff and I'll let you know.
(12:55):
Now that I actually have thatanswer, I think everybody knows
to trust me a bit more, but Ithink there was some hesitation
there at first.
J.B. (13:01):
Yeah, here on Unserious, we'd like to kick things off
with a little game that we callHire, fire Boss, where you get
to pick among a fictional teamand a fictional task one person
to hire, one person to fire andone person to be your boss.
(13:22):
The category for this one isMake Me Laugh Comedy Legends.
The category for this one isMake Me Laugh Comedy Legends,
and the task for this one isthat Apple Music has entered a
partnership with Punch-Up anddecided to relaunch live comedy
on the platform with audio andvideo.
The team that you'll be workingwith is Joan Rivers, carol
(13:43):
Burnett and Richard Pryor.
You have to pick one to hire,one to fire and one to be your
boss.
Danny (13:55):
I mean, how much older are you than me?
Substantially like what yeah,I'll just say this is not the
most comedy.
J.B. (14:05):
I mean, these are sure, sure, sure, carol Burnett.
Danny (14:08):
I, literally I might have to Google like exactly.
J.B. (14:11):
Are you not quite sure who Joan Rivers or Richard Pryor is
?
No, I know.
Danny (14:14):
Joan Rivers and I got Richard Pryor, carol Burnett,
I'm going to kill, just becauseI genuinely don't feel like I
know much.
Yeah, is that not what I'msupposed to do?
What are the options you?
J.B. (14:26):
hire you fire.
Danny (14:27):
Sorry, you make somebody your boss.
J.B. (14:31):
I'm using the games.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see whatyou did there For the record.
Danny (14:35):
I was going to have sex with Richard Pryor, but we'll
save that one for a differentgame, I guess.
Yeah, I will fire Carol Burnettfor the same general reasoning,
because you know, if you'refired it's essentially the same
(14:58):
as you know, dying in my life.
I will hire, um uh, joan Rivers, although she's had some pretty
unsavory things about MichelleObama at the end of her life,
which really made me questionthat I did not know that.
J.B. (15:09):
Yeah, I didn't really follow her after like the E
years.
Danny (15:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And Richard Pryor, I guess Iwould make my boss just because
I feel like he'd be doing a lotof drugs.
And let me have a lot ofautonomy.
J.B. (15:22):
Brewster's Millions.
Danny (15:24):
Love Brewster's Millions, one of my favorite movies of
all time.
In fact, I think about it veryfrequently, of like how I would
solve that problem, I probablywould fire Joan Rivers.
I didn't know.
I was supposed to ask you.
Sorry, go ahead.
J.B. (15:41):
You don't have to ask me.
I was going to answer anyway.
Fire, joan Rivers, hire RichardPryor ask me.
Yeah, okay, I was gonna answeranyway.
Um, fire, joan rivers, hirerichard pryor and probably make
carol burnett my boss I lookforward to researching carol
burnett so that I can speak.
You should more intelligently asto whether or not she should be
my boss I think, as somebodywho works in comedy, that you
(16:03):
should figure out who carolburnett is.
I know the name.
That's that's something thatthat's something that you should
.
What was who Carol Burnett is?
I know the name.
That's something that youshould be.
Danny (16:09):
What was she?
Tell me, give me her.
J.B. (16:11):
The Carol Burnett Show.
Yeah, she did sketch, not standup, so Okay, but she's kind of
what was the last?
Danny (16:20):
What's the last Hollywood credit that Carol Burnett had?
J.B. (16:24):
Palm Royale Okay, this last year.
She's still alive.
She's still alive.
She just was on Apple TV.
Danny (16:35):
Oh, I know, Carol Burnett , yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I
mean I don't yeah, okay.
J.B. (16:42):
Clearly you don't really know, carol.
Danny (16:44):
Burnett, I don't really know her.
No, no, no, she's on BetterCall Saul.
Mad about you.
Great Toy Story 4.
Excellent, we should have justsaid she was in Toy Story 4 and
it would have been like oh, Iget it now.
Molly (17:00):
I think in that like product market fit phase, you're
learning a lot.
You got to adapt, you've got azillion things on your list to
do and then people are like whatare you doing here?
Cause you're also figuring outwhat you're doing here.
Do you have wisdom for otherfolks when they're in that mode
of being a little bit of astartup, figuring out the
business, figuring out theproduct fit, like how do you
take care of yourself?
(17:20):
I think you know the ADD andbeing able to like, manage chaos
is probably a real superpowerin those moments.
Like any wisdom for folks whenthey're in that time?
Danny (17:28):
So I think two things.
I think one I love comedy andmusic.
Molly (17:33):
Yeah.
Danny (17:34):
And eventually podcasting .
Molly (17:36):
So get in here, buddy yeah.
Danny (17:41):
It is the craziest thing I've ever done by far.
Like I just look back on likethe times where I was at
Facebook and I was like, oh,this is so hard and I'm like
that was fucking a cakewalk, itis insane.
So the one thing is like I lovethis stuff and it's so fun and
I, like you know right before,like I was literally texting
with another comedian I love SamMorrell Like as we were getting
(18:03):
this thing started, like it'sjust so fun, like I get to talk
to these people and like I love,I love being in comedy.
So I don't think that if I werestarting a company doing
accounting work, that I wouldpossibly survive.
J.B. (18:15):
Well, you have to put yourself out there Like you're
selling yourself and it's notfun Totally.
Danny (18:23):
And it's intense.
The interesting thing is I meanit's when you say it's not fun,
it is intense, it is the mostfun imaginable, like the
weirdest thing that I stillcan't believe.
I skied five days last year andI, previous to starting this
company, would probably measuremy overall happiness by how many
days of skiing I got in.
If you would have told me threeyears ago that I got five days
(18:45):
of skiing, you would have toprobably just start force
feeding me some kind ofmedication or something, like I
would be really, really in a badplace.
I'm so happy that I only skiedfive days because I got to work
the other 360 days and like Ireally did and I even worked
those five days that I wasskiing I love this.
Like I am obsessed with it.
It's definitely unhealthy, but,like I am, there's nothing in
(19:07):
the world that I want to do morethan work, which is insane.
The thing that I'll say aboutour business, which I think is
very different than a lot ofother businesses and something
that is a point of interest,I'll put it when you deal with
people who evaluate startups.
I see there's two differentmodels for starting a company.
(19:27):
The first is you are starting abetter version of something
that already exists and that issomething that is very easy for
venture capitalists or evencustomers to understand.
Right, it's like you're using.
You're using MailChimp rightnow.
I have a better email marketingsolution that is going to
deliver things quicker and it'sgoing to give you more guidance,
(19:51):
and you're paying them $300 amonth.
Pay me 250.
Yeah, that is fine.
I mean, if you get me a littledrunk, I'll tell you my honest
opinions on that type of thing.
I got thoughts, yeah.
But then there's this othertype of business where it's like
this thing has never reallyexisted before and you kind of
(20:13):
just have to have a bunch ofpeople who really trust you to
figure it all out, which isessentially a thing where, like
when I was pitching investorslast year yeah, probably about a
year ago it had to kind of beall about belief because I
didn't really know what I wasdoing.
Like a lot of this stuff kindof happened as I was learning
(20:33):
more and more about the industry.
I came in with a hypothesis,but like it was a very
elementary one.
Um, and we've done like I'm sounbelievably proud of, like the
team that we put together andhow much shit we like it's just,
it is like a truly like a lifething.
Molly (20:50):
I have a question Like um , so I spent I spent some time
in um in the innovation space,and a big part of innovation is
that you are presenting ideas orcoming up with solutions that
maybe didn't exist before, butyou do have to convince people
that this new idea, do have toconvince people that this new
idea.
You have to convince peoplearound this new idea and they
don't.
They don't know what it is yet.
(21:11):
How do you do that?
How?
How do you persuade?
Are you using data?
Are you using storytelling?
Are you using passion?
Like?
We have this awesome coach,courtney Kaplan, who works with,
I think, several of us on thecall.
You might even know Courtneyfrom your Facebook days, but she
has, she, she.
She recently shared a sayingwith me.
She was like words make worldsand so, like you, you almost
(21:34):
have to will things intoexistence, but you have to put
words behind it, and I like justhearing that.
Like having to sell folks onsomething that's never existed
before.
How do you do it?
Danny (21:45):
I just spend a lot of time thinking about it.
To be honest, it's one of thesethings that's what's that
saying where it's like you can't.
You can connect the dots.
Looking back, but you can'tfigure out looking forward or
something.
I don't know what that is, butthat's kind of it where there's
just been one or twoconversations that I had that
lit off a light.
I like one of the cornerstonesof the entire business.
(22:07):
Essentially because I firstcame at this from a data privacy
perspective.
Where I was in a meeting atfacebook and I remember, as we
were figuring out kind of thefuture data privacy, somebody
said like the only durableidentifier on the internet is
email and I was like, all right,who doesn't have emails?
So we actually started off as away for just helping folks
collect emails.
And then I was in a meetingwith an agent who mentioned like
(22:32):
the analytics products they hadand I took a look at it and I
was like, oh my god, these areterrible.
And then I was like, well, weactually have a lot of this
stuff already.
Like we and I went for a run andthen I came back and I like
wrote this whole manifesto tothe team, that the team took it
and ran with it and I just gotpretty lucky.
Uh, this great guy who worked inFacebook uh was available and
like started joining the team,was able to spin up a lot of
(22:53):
this insights work.
So I wasn't really even pitchingthat that we were at the very
early stages of even thinkingabout it when I raised money
last year.
Um, so I it's just it's so muchluck, to be honest, like it's,
it's the combination of justlike constantly thinking about
things, really really tryinghard and uh, then luck, like
(23:15):
again, I can't really talk aboutit at the moment, but like, the
reason why I bagged one of myeyes is we have this huge thing
that is going on for the companyright now in a really positive
way that I it's just like it'scrazy the timing of it all and I
couldn't have predicted it.
It's completely out of mycontrol and that's the hard part
with all this stuff.
You know you can kind of willsome level of luck to your side,
(23:37):
but you need a lot of it tohave it all kind of work out,
and so far so good, althoughwe'll see if I'm chasing it.
Molly (23:45):
What is rattling through my brain right now is one going
from data privacy to comedy.
Like to me.
I'm like, like.
In my mind I was like okay, soElon Musk is sending like
rockets into space.
People had already done thatbefore.
I don't know if anybody hadgone from data privacy to comedy
before.
So just even thinking aboutthat innovation journey, I'm
(24:07):
like that's cool.
And then like, and then eventhinking about that you work in
this space of predictiveanalytics but you're having a
hard like the predictability ina startup and how you navigate
that.
I mean those are just reallycool tensions of just like life,
work and passion.
That I think that's to me feelslike the thrill of being a
(24:28):
founder, but also you don't getto ski as much and you got bags
under your eyes Like there's aprice to pay to be that thrill
seeker in that space.
Danny (24:39):
I really admire anyone who started anything like
anything at all, like I don'tcare what it is, it's just like
I really I think it's thecoolest thing.
But yeah, it is thrill makes itseem a little bit too exciting.
It's like a lot, it's funny.
I was talking to this guy who'sreally, really successful I
(25:00):
don't want to name him, but likethe coolest part about this
whole thing is how many peoplewant to talk to you.
Like I have like the presidentof a 24 television as an advisor
that just like I get to talk toand just have these long
discussions of you know what thefuture of entertainment is.
It's so cool.
And the people you get to chatwith it's just like it's.
It's that's a huge highlight.
(25:21):
But like some people really Ithink take it as through I,
friends, was up at 4 30 in themorning, just like all right,
what the fuck like, what's theright prioritization order here?
And like I am slowly, I thinkyou know, figuring out how to
get to some kind of equilibrium.
And this guy that I was talkingto, um, he was giving me
certain advice as well.
(25:42):
He's like you know, you gottakind of figure out how to stay
level with it all yeah and I wasyeah, what was your secret?
He's like oh, I didn't figure itout.
I ended up hospitalized at onepoint because I was just like
not sleeping, doing anything.
I'm like all right.
Well, how about I get someadvice from someone who actually
figured this out, as opposed toYou're like.
J.B. (25:58):
thank you, and I'm like yeah.
Danny (26:13):
Well, it my opinion.
Molly (26:14):
Do you think you I mean do you have like to get a
startup off the ground?
It is essential that you drivehard.
Danny (26:21):
Like you, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean there's no, there's
no other way around it.
Well, I actually think that likekind of couple of years with
all the tech layoffs is likereally, what happened is the
bubble burst from easy livingright, like I no longer think in
from when I've talked to peopleat facebook like, and again, if
(26:42):
any, if this company doesn'twork, and then I have to go back
to facebook.
I always worked very, very hardand did very good work, but,
like you know, there was thissense of comfort, like like I
couldn't imagine that facebookwas going to be laying people
off in 2017 or whatever, and soI don't know if there is
anywhere where I think you cankind of, you know, not work hard
and get paid a bunch of moneycan you create?
J.B. (27:04):
like?
Are you striving to create anenvironment that is more human
in scale, Like right now you are.
You're working beyond a humanscale.
Danny (27:15):
Yeah, I make very little money and I work every single
day, from the moment I wake upto the moment I go to bed,
except for putting my kid tosleep, and I work seven days a
week.
So I don't, but I also want tobe doing it, and everybody at
the company works hard and theywant to be doing it.
But I will say that to succeedin this, I feel very strongly
and they want to be doing it.
But I will say that to succeedin this I feel very strongly you
(27:36):
have to work your ass off andwork harder than I ever thought
that I could possibly be.
I was never someone that wouldwork this many hours, or even
thought Again.
I measured my life by how muchtime I could spend doing all the
activities that I like, and nowI try to have as few activities
as possible so that I can work.
I both understand that I havelimits but also, like I
(28:20):
genuinely do believe that theonly way this thing is going to
be successful is if I reallyspend as much time as humanly
possible thinking about it andas much time as possible working
on it.
And you know this guy who saidhe was hospitalized.
He's working so hard, likepeople clearly do burn out and
clearly do push themselves, andI think there's probably some
amount of uh, humility that Iprobably need to approach this
with.
But like it hasn't happened yet, I wake up every day pumped,
(28:42):
yeah, just like full ofadrenaline.
I wish it didn't happen at 4 30in the morning, but like I, I'm
pumped I love that.
J.B. (28:50):
I love that, like I guess the point is it's like at some
point it feels like that can'tsustain itself.
Like marriages break.
Like you have your kids willget older.
They need more of you.
Like all of these things arerealities that will will come.
Like your employees will havemore lives of their own as well
(29:14):
more lives of their own as welland that will take up more space
in in their 24 hours of the day.
Is there a plan to evolve?
Danny (29:18):
from where you are now to yeah, I mean at some point.
You know once.
I assume at some point thiswill need to change, like I have
a kid and I have another one onthe way.
Molly (29:27):
I mean I I feel like to be able to wake up every morning
and feel super pumped and havelike an awesome family around
you is like that's a dream cometrue for anybody on this planet.
If you were to give wisdom toanybody else who's thinking
about starting a business anyother like you're out talking to
folks and gathering nuggetshere and there and being like
(29:48):
I'm going to take this one andthis one I am not going to take
I'm curious what would be yourpro tips for anybody who is
thinking about following theirpassion, figuring out the right
product, market fit and gettinga business off the ground?
Danny (30:01):
Listen, the easy answer here is like find something that
you care so insanelypassionately about that you're
willing to put in all the work.
Because, again, the only thingthat I know is you really got to
work hard.
Because, again, the only thingthat I know is you really got to
work hard.
But you know, I think it'sdifficult because I feel very
lucky on just like a lot ofcoincidences or just like
(30:22):
happenstance that ended upoccurring that allowed this to
be something that is, you know,so enjoyable.
So I don't know, I think thatyou just have to be prepared for
whatever the outcome is.
You need to really be matureabout it and re-glamorize this
idea of following your dreams.
But sometimes there's realconsequences to that.
I really try to live in realityas much as I possibly can, and
(30:52):
I think that's just kind of it.
So if you're going to do it,make sure that you're fully
prepared, go all in and just tryyour best to enjoy it, because
there's a lot of ups and downs.
But at least for me, I reallykeep trying to remind myself
like this has been a lifelongdream, and you know I'm doing it
, so fucking soak it in.
Molly (31:12):
I love it.
I just I my final reflectionand just like thank you, danny,
for being so real and honestabout what it, what it takes and
the moment that you're in inthis incredible business.
I remember hearing Mark Cubantalk and it was like Mark, could
you be a billionaire again?
And he was like, no, he's likeI couldn't do it again.
(31:33):
And he's like he's like I couldprobably be a millionaire again
, but I can't be a billionaire.
Because it's not.
It's not only like a mix of likeintelligence.
There's an intelligence piece,um, uh, there's an uh, there's a
passion piece, but he also waslike it's a luck piece and he's
like I was lucky, I was at theright place, right time, right
product and that's what got mestarted and I just thank you and
(31:57):
I'm so excited to see whereyour business goes and I love
comedy.
I think the world needs so muchmore laughter right now,
because things are terrible outthere and I feel like it's the
thing that brings us alltogether and we have to be able
to laugh so that we can addresshard stuff and move forward.
And so, if you are supportingthose folks who are carrying all
(32:20):
of us right now, thank you.
I think we need so much more ofthat, and they're so lucky to
have you on their team.
Danny (32:26):
Thank you, I'm so lucky to have this conversation with
you.
No, I agree, I think it's.
It's really nice getting towork on something that just
feels I'm sure people can spinit, but like, genuinely like we
are just trying to make peoplelaugh more, which feels like one
of the least controversialthings that you can aim to do.
So that means a lot, thank you.
Molly (32:44):
Yeah, thank you for joining us on Unserious.
J.B. (32:48):
Danny, how can people keep up with you and learn more
about your work?
Danny (32:51):
You can go to punchuplive or punchuplivecom, because the
dot live confuses people.
Check it out.
We have an app that's comingout shortly.
We've got a whole bunch ofreally good comedy that's coming
out.
Just go check out the site,enjoy it.
There's a whole bunch of freecontent on there.
You can just sign up for yourfavorite comedian's mailing
lists and then know when they'recoming down know when they're
(33:14):
coming down and that's the show.
J.B. (33:16):
Thank you for being Unserious with us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
(33:41):
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Danny (33:49):
Oh, I know, Carol Burnett .
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