September 11, 2025 • 39 mins
We all communicate... but are we really saying what matters? So often, the most critical conversations at work are the ones we avoid. We dodge them to keep the peace, to protect ourselves, or because no one ever taught us how to navigate them well.
"Anything worth communicating is because you want somebody to know, do, or feel something. If it’s not landing, it doesn’t matter how you said it." - Andrew Blotky
In this episode of Unserious, we dig into what gets in the way of honest dialogue—and what becomes possible when we move through it. Leadership and communications expert Andrew Blotky, author of Honestly Speaking: How the Way We Communicate Transforms Leadership, Love, and Life and founder of Azure Leadership Group joins us to explore:
- Why self-awareness (and knowing your audience) matters more than what you say
- How clarity is one of the most underrated leadership superpowers
- Ways to give (and get) feedback that actually builds trust
- Simple frameworks for listening better, fostering inclusion, and making hard conversations less scary
It’s candid, a little irreverent, and full of practical wisdom you can bring to your next meeting.
Follow Andrew Blotky on LinkedIn and learn more about his coaching and consulting practice at www.azureleadership.com. Honestly Speaking... is available at https://a.co/d/5C3gCal
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This is Unserious, but if we're honest with
ourselves, the most importantconversations are the ones that
we're not having.
We avoid them because they'reuncomfortable or because they
feel risky or because no oneever showed us how to do it well
.
But when it does work well,obstacles clear, trust deepens
(00:41):
and we step into a more powerfuland straightforward way of
working together.
I'm JB Skelton, here with MollyMcMahon.
Joining us is Andrew Blotke,leadership and communications
expert, who built and ledinternal communications teams at
Facebook and Johnson.
Johnson served in politicalcommunications at the White
(01:02):
House and Congress and now leadsthe Azure Leadership Group, an
executive coaching andconsulting firm specializing in,
amongst other thingscommunication.
He's one of my queer heroes, atrained mindfulness and yoga
teacher and the author of thebook Honestly Speaking how the
Way we Communicate TransformsLeadership, love and Life.
(01:25):
Andrew, thank you for beinghere.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
I'm so happy to be here and thank you for the kind
introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, well, let's dig right into it.
So your book really emphasizesand this is actually I think
this is the huge theme of yourbook.
It's actually one of thehardest things to grasp in your
book that it matters less whatyou say and more what people
hear.
Can you help unpack this for us, because I think it is a really
(01:55):
hard thing to imbue personally.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, no-transcript is.
(02:34):
We're in a conversation withpeople, right?
And so if you are trying tocommunicate somebody, it doesn't
matter how you say it ifthey're not internalizing it or
if it's not landing well, matterhow you say it if they're not
internalizing it or if it's notlanding well.
And so the whole idea ofcommunication the Latin root of
the word is about conjoining,bringing together, and so you
want to sort of think about whatare the ways that you can try
(02:55):
to be more in connection withpeople so that they understand
what you want them to understand.
You're trying to maximize yousometimes think of like a Venn
diagram.
You're trying to maximize myunderstanding and your
understanding of where theyoverlap.
You want them to sort of beoverlapping as much as possible
and that could be you know, Ialways talk about anything
that's worth communicating isbecause you want somebody to
(03:16):
know something or to dosomething or to feel something.
And so a lot of leaders willjust start thinking about what
they want to push out, ratherthan trying to think what do I
really need my audience to hearor to understand, or how do I
want them to feel?
So especially in this time a lotof leaders are trying to work
through.
How does my team need to feel?
(03:39):
How do I motivate them?
How do I make sure that we'reall operating in the same
direction?
How do I make them feel likethey belong in an organization?
And I think that we need toalmost get out of our own way.
So part of what I think aboutwhen I think about communicating
and training and coachingleaders, as I do, is how can you
help them to do more of thework of trying to understand who
(04:01):
their audience is and then tobe really honest with yourself
around what am I trying toconvey here?
What do I really want to convey?
And then you figure out what'sthe best way to get there.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I want to get to that audience piece in just a second
, but before that, how doesself-awareness and
self-understanding play intoeffective communication?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
A lot of times we'll start thinking about
communication, especially ifyou're in a leadership role, or
especially if you're in a publicforum, as a presentation or a
performance, and I think thatthat, especially in the world
that we're in now, where we allcarry around these devices and
at people's BS, meters arereally high, and so the more you
can just sort of think abouthow am I actually just going to
(04:45):
be communicating or connectingwith somebody in an authentic
way?
Just speak honestly, just behonest, be human, be who you are
, the better.
And so it requires work, thoughto do that, you need to both
have internalized and sort ofknow your brief, know the
substance of what you're talkingabout, but also really have
done the work of again, what doI really want somebody to feel
(05:05):
here?
Maybe it's just that I wantthem to feel appreciated, or
maybe I want them to know thatactually, this has been a really
hard week for me.
I don't have all the answers.
I messed up.
I apologize.
Here's how we're going tochange our strategy, but that
requires a little bit of work,it requires vulnerability and it
requires, as I say, being justreally honest with yourself.
So it's a mindset, it's lessperformance presentation Take
(05:29):
the mask off and really more.
Just here's who I am.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Here's who Andrew is here's how I'm going to try to
get the team.
This is a very busy time atwork right now and I'm juggling
probably 25 different balls andtwo of them dropped in the last
couple of weeks and uh, and Ijust had this like tense, uh
(05:56):
conversation with my managerabout how do I rebuild trust
here and think that that justlike changed the tenor and that
was a method that I sort oflearned from you.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, one of the things when you're in a
conversation like that that Ifound that can really help is to
sort of think about what do Iwant for me, what do I want for
the other person, and then whatdo I want for us, and that whole
then what do I?
want for us, and that whole whatdo I want for us is really
important and to sort of almostmake it more explicit, right?
So if you're talking to yourmanager or you're talking to
(06:34):
somebody who you manage, who'sdropped the ball here, want to
understand okay, what's wrongwith your work format?
Do we need to get you othersupport, or there are other ways
that we can help.
You know, whatever it is andtry to think about look, the
goal here is that everybody islike that we achieve the right
business results right, we'reall here to do a job, but also
(06:55):
that you are able to do reallygood work where you feel
supported.
Are there some things that I,as your manager, could take off
your plate?
Or could I help you prioritizeso that 25 becomes five?
Right, If you have 25 things,nothing can be a priority, and
so that's a whole leadershipthing that we should talk about,
could talk about.
But, I think the idea of tryingto separate out as a
(07:15):
communications exercise what amI wanting from this person, what
do I want for myself, and thenwhat do I want for both of us?
What's the ideal outcome hereJust helps you to sort of make
explicit what's often implicitand also eliminates a little bit
of the emotionality that cansometimes color the
(07:37):
conversations.
You want to try to be in aworld of action, not sort of
feeling as much.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That is an awesome framework and actually I'm
tucking that away for myself.
I wanted to just double clickJB.
Thank you for sharing this,because I have been in this
situation before.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
We all have.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
We all have and actually, what I struggle with
is that vulnerability piece anda feeling of insecurity and not
knowing how to ask for help inthose moments, and so I'm
curious is there any otherwisdom you would have for
helping people gather belief andself in those moments when you
(08:19):
do feel insecure?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah.
So the one just clarifyingpoint on that sort of little
framework is it's what do I wantRight, and so it's not a what
did you do wrong, what did I dowrong?
It's not an aspersed castingblame, it's forward looking.
It's like you know, thereprobably is some sort of you
know, look back, let's assesswhat happened so we don't repeat
it again.
But really what we're trying todo is be in a place of forward
(08:43):
looking, and that in and ofitself, by the way, requires an
immense amount of vulnerability,and so the vulnerability is not
like just be more vulnerable.
So what I'm interested in istrying to get people to sort of
see that little changes orlittle verbs or words that they
use or little actions actuallyare vulnerable.
I mean this conversation, jb,you were just quite vulnerable
(09:05):
in explaining that you weren'tperfect.
Guess what?
No one is perfect, right?
And so we want to sort of callthat out, make sure that we're
talking about it, observing it,seeing it and saying, hey,
that's great.
I also sort of think, asleaders, part of our job is to
try to create an environmentwhere it is acceptable and okay
to and I think, more and moresenior leaders the higher they
(09:27):
get, the less sort of vulnerablethey feel like they can be
because they're supposed to beperfect.
And especially right now, we'reseeing a world where this almost
like hyper-masculine,aggressive, bullying type way of
leading is seeping out of thegovernment into just our culture
and into our world, and so whatI'm saying may be a little time
counterintuitive, but I thinkthat what the world actually
(09:50):
needs more of is people who arejust being honest.
Vulnerability doesn't meanyou're talking about all your
emotions.
Doesn't mean even you arehaving a display of emotion.
It just means that, oh guesswhat?
You're not perfect.
We're all not perfect.
How can I try to be a littlebit curious about putting myself
in somebody else's shoes?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I think my own motto for this year and right now, as
I think about myselfprofessionally and personally,
is like curiosity over fear.
How can I be more curious,particularly in moments where
I'm feeling insecure, uncertain?
I definitely don't like to bevulnerable.
That's not my jam.
So I really love that wisdomaround being curious, because I
(10:33):
think that gives you the freedomto be kinder to yourself and
each other.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, and it's like at work.
None of us are really expectedto be and again to JB's point
earlier, none of us are reallytrained on how to do this.
None of us is taught this.
A lot of us are really expectedto be.
And again to JB's point earlier, none of us are really trained
on how to do this.
None of us is taught this.
A lot of us don't learn this inschool.
It's culturally, in many partsof the world, including the
United States, not particularlyaccepted.
But this is why some of thework of like Brene Brown and
even like Mel Robbins and othersthey're trying to get at it
(11:01):
from lots of different types ofangles, but it's really all kind
of the same thing, which isjust be kind of more honest,
just be more who?
you are and just be like this iswho I am right.
You are not a job title.
You are a person performing arole at this time within this
particular system.
So it's a role.
It's not you.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Well, I, I I'm going to challenge you on that one
Cause I do think that weactually have learned to have,
we've learned how to have toughconversations poorly and like in
a weaponized kind of way.
We sort of use it as ammunitionrather than as a um, as a
(11:39):
generous conversation.
Um with each other, generousconversation with each other.
How do you make space to haveaccountability and honesty
without meanness, veiled likeit's feedback.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think that this is partly why I mean
people who do it really well.
Are that question around, likewhat do I want for both of us is
so important right?
What do I want for this workingrelationship here?
Right, because it gets you outof the sort of winning, losing
fight, flight me you, you know,uh, sort of hierarchy, power or
(12:15):
sort of dynamic conversation, um, and so even if you were
talking with a boss who's verystuck in that mindset, you still
can sort of think about well,look like what I really want
here is for us to sort of have areally good working team.
Like, I want to work here, Iwant to perform, I want to meet
your expectations.
So it's around finding commonground.
It's like you want to sort ofhave a like a pool of shared
(12:38):
meaning, right?
So you're operating in the samesort of general world of like,
what are we all here to do?
We're all working at the samecompany, we're all on the same
team, we all have the samestrategic business objective
that we got to meet by the endof the quarter.
What are the common threads here?
What are the commonalities?
And then you break it apart.
Hey, what are the couple ofthings that we can agree on?
We can at least agree that wewant to have another
(13:00):
conversation tomorrow.
Great, build on the littleagreements that you have so that
you can get to a place whereyou're not in that sort of
winning losing mentality.
So, finding that common ground,finding a sense of just making
explicit hey, this is what Iwant for us.
What do you want?
Ask, ask To your point, molly.
Really I love that beingcurious.
(13:20):
Ask a question what do you seeis the best way forward for both
of us?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
yeah, yeah, I love that.
I love those prompts I I knowthat I need.
Often, particularly when I'mwhen there's fear involved, I
almost need those types ofprompts to help me guide myself
and others.
Okay, so welcome to Hire FireBoss.
(13:48):
You can take a wild guess whatthis game is about.
Basically, we're going to givea fictional scenario with three
characters and you're going tohave to hire one, you're going
to have to fire one, one and oneis going to have to be your
boss.
Sound good.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Sounds great.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Okay.
Your objective with this dreamteam is you guys are launching a
lifestyle brand that helpspeople slow down and find their
center.
It's part mindfulness, partmovement, part leadership reboot
.
You need a team with the rightstuff to make this all happen.
(14:28):
Here is your list of candidates.
The first person you can choosefrom is Steve Jobs, Apple
co-founder and communicator,extraordinaire, obsessed with
elegance and clarity.
The second option is SamanthaJones from Sex and the City, a
PR powerhouse, unapologetic,bold, would crush any launch,
(14:53):
possibly too unfiltered forinternal comms.
And then last we have GwynethPaltrow Goop CEO, candle and
jade egg provocateur, legalsavvy.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Deer Valley fan.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
All right, so that is your dream team Andrew.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Oh boy, how would?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
you put this crew together.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I think I would want Samantha to be my boss.
Yeah, and I think I would wantSamantha to be my boss, yeah,
and I think I would probablyfire Steve Jobs and I would
probably hire Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
What's your reasoning there?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I think Steve Jobs would be incredibly difficult to
work with and work for, and Ithink he would have a very
specific idea about how thisshould go, and I'm not sure that
that is good team player kindof work.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He's not very flexible.
He didn't have a reputation forbeing flexible.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I mean he built and created amazing things and it
was so him.
I think Samantha Jones is likevision but also compassion and
actually as the series went on,especially toward the end, but
also compassion and actually asthe series went on, especially
toward the end, ended up beingsort of the adult in the room,
heart forward kind of personthat sort of was beautiful and
(16:12):
like kind of who?
you want as your boss.
And then Gwyneth Paltrow I feellike you know probably has some
really good stuff.
We got to write that job recreally carefully.
We got to find what we want herto actually do, but I feel like
there's some goodness there.
And I feel like the calmness,the brand, the slowing down.
(16:34):
She's worked in the lifestylebrand, so probably a submit
offer.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I actually would switch Samantha.
So I agree with you Fire Steve.
I think he's the wrong personto either work with or be my
boss, Particularly on thisproject.
I don't think a mindfulnessproject with Steve Jobs I was
like no.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, but didn't he?
He was like steeped in EasternBuddhism, wasn't he Steeped in
Eastern traditions?
And I just feel like his way ofshowing it would be like the
way to do it as opposed to Idon't know, there could be, but
that's not.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
that's like the least Buddhist way of doing it Right.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I don't know, I'm not enlightened enough.
Maybe, maybe he was, maybe I'vemade a bad choice.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
That's right.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Steve's out.
I agree with you.
I think I would want to workalongside Samantha, I think, for
all the same reasons that yousaid.
I think she has this incredibleheart and she would just be a
lot of fun to work alongsidethat.
(17:48):
Gwyneth, I think, brings a lotof particularly knowledge in and
sort of some knowledge gapsthat I have in the mindfulness
space.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, actually, I feel like all of these folks are
meant to be bosses.
Yeah, so I was like whoa, thisis a hard group of cats to
wrangle.
Yeah, yeah, the one thing.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I have learned enough in my own career and I now work
with a lot of people on.
This is like who your manageris, who your boss is so
important, and so I was thinking, okay, who would I rather have
as my boss, samantha or Gwynethand for me it's definitely
Samantha, but I think it justdepends on what's the best for
the business versus you as anemployee.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So you know, gwyneth runs cooler, I think, than
Samantha, and I run warmer, andso I actually think it's a nice
counterbalance.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, that would be good for you.
Yeah, great.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So you think that Gwyneth could manage JB I?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
think she probably already does.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Probably some like face product called that or
something.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Just created.
Oh my God.
Yeah, it's probably justcottage cheese that you rub on
your face.
That's probably right that yourub on your face, that's
probably right.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I'm curious about feedback because a lot of
companies say that they valuehonest communication.
They talk about things likeradical candor.
Feedback is a gift.
We embrace hard conversations.
I haven't seen a lot of that inaction.
I actually I saw a lot of it inaction during my time at IDEO
(19:31):
because I think it's built intothe design process, but I don't
I haven't seen it in otheraspects of work done really well
.
Why is there such a gap betweenstated culture and what
actually happens when we talkabout wanting to gather feedback
and have those types ofcritical conversations?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I think companies are very aspirational and they say
they want one thing, but thenthey don't actually invest in it
and help people do it inreality.
So you say you want to have aculture that's open or that
values feedback and hardconversations, but then maybe
you haven't invested in it, notonly to just put people through
a training to give them someskills on it which there are
also a lot of really shittytrainings out there but also
(20:13):
then you're not holding peopleaccountable for the behaviors
that you want and rewarding thebehaviors that are really good
when you see them.
And partly this requires aleadership, sort of at the top
sort of setting the tone, but italso requires day-to-day
managers in moment-to-momentconversations and decisions,
living this every day.
But I think to your point ofwhy companies don't do this
(20:36):
really well is because oftenit's not invested in and because
we don't hold peopleaccountable both positively and
sort of constructively for it.
One of the little piece of sortof guidance that I was given
once that I love and I'veadopted it myself is, rather
than just framing it in terms offeedback, is to talk about it
(20:58):
more in terms of guidance, andso especially when you're asking
somebody, hey, I want you togive me feedback.
There's ways that you can askingsomebody, hey, I want you to
give me feedback.
There's ways that you can askthem that will give you
something that's useful to you.
But framing it in terms ofguidance is both more
forward-looking, so it's moreuseful, and it also tends to
just sort of be a little less ofa rot immediate kind of
(21:21):
antagonistic kind of mindset.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I'm no good on my own .
I am.
I'm a team animal Like.
I like to be in it witheverybody else and I'm going to
build off of other people'sideas.
I'm I.
That is how I believe the bestwork gets done, and so when I
think about guidance, I alsothink it's my job to ask people
for what I need what type ofguidance I need depending on
(21:46):
where I am in the work, likeearly on, you can tear it up
like no one's business.
If it's just the back of theenvelope, go to town, I love it.
If we're at the end and I needto deliver it in two hours, I
can't handle it.
You know we talked some aboutcritical conversations, but do
you think that we also sometimesabout critical conversations,
but do you think that we alsosometimes avoid good
(22:08):
conversations as well?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, for sure, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Like is that?
I'm curious.
Like, when was the last timeyou took someone aside to tell
them that you appreciate theirwork?
Like, is that something that'slike baked into your practice?
Is that something that you helpyour clients with?
And I say this because I knowthat actually I gave some
guidance to someone who wasmanaging me.
I was in my two months ofstarting a new job and I was
like, actually no one's asked mehow I'm doing, no one's asked
(22:36):
me that in two months, whichmakes me go my brain.
My mind can go into overdrivewhen there's nothing happening.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, for sure, Totally.
You know there's yeah, there'sa couple things on this.
So our minds, our brains, humanbrains, are like wired to sort
of look for problems, right andso it's like the fight or flight
, problem solving, and sothere's a reason why we tend to
sort of live in the negative,and that's one of the reasons
why so many of the spiritualtraditions like you mentioned
(23:05):
earlier mindfulness, slowingdown, the lifestyle brand that
Samantha Jones and Gwyneth aregoing to help us create is all
sort of like I'm in, I'm in, I'min, but it's a little bit of
this like helps break you out ofthat by thinking well, what are
you?
It's like appreciative inquiryis one of the ideas in that
world.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
The idea is what did you do?
The other AI?
Speaker 3 (23:27):
What did we do?
What do more of what's working,you know, express appreciation
and gratitude for people.
I mean, one of the best ways toantidotes to fear and to
anxiety that we all experienceis to sort of notice well, what
am I grateful for, what are thethings that actually you know?
And to take a moment to do that.
It's especially meaningful topeople in an organization who
(23:48):
are working hard.
I was just working.
I still have a client now.
It's a leadership team.
I'm doing a bunch of leadershipcoaching with the team and one
of the themes that came out ofour last session one of our last
sessions was the idea that likethere are certain who are
busting their ass, workingreally hard and nobody actually
stops to just be like hey, I seeyou, thank you, I really
(24:08):
appreciate what you're doing.
How are you?
You don't even need to get intoa deep conversation, but just
that really was verbally calledout among a couple of people on
this team.
It's like I just need more ofthat, and so I think we
sometimes think that it's likeunnecessary or that it doesn't
have a positive impact, but Iwill tell you, like study after
(24:30):
study, business schools, youknow, social science, research
will tell you that appreciationand gratitude and recognition is
one of the most highly flexedlevers that leaders have in
getting the best out of theirteam, and it also makes it
that's a form of vulnerabilityright.
It makes it far easier to thencreate a situation where you can
(24:51):
have the productive,constructive or hard
conversation because you'vebuilt a well of genuine
appreciation.
The worst thing, I think, is todo what we call like the shit
sandwich, which is just like youdid this really well, you
didn't do this well, but oh,this is okay, and then I have no
idea what you've actually been.
It's not honest.
I can't tell.
What did you?
(25:11):
You know?
Are you couching it?
Just because you whatever?
So take the moments to expressappreciation gradually when
somebody does something reallywell or if they've worked really
hard, so that you then have theopportunity to be in a trusted
way when you need to course,correct or give some good
guidance.
It's like that didn't workreally well.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Did you all see the Saturday Night Live season
finale where they were doingcomms coaching and they were
basically coaching the shitsandwich?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Oh, they were no really.
Oh, I need to watch this.
It was really funny.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
It was really funny.
They were like say somethingnice, Feedback, say something
nice.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah, oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
People pick and choose what they want to listen
to in the shit sandwich too.
That's the other thing.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
That's actually a really good point Totally.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
And then you've lost an opportunity to actually
deliver any meaningful guidancein the first place.
That's right so people are likewhat am I supposed to do?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Well, I want to change gears here, because you
talk about so many amazingframeworks in your book.
Can you walk us through onethat you have found particularly
valuable and particularly highimpact?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think probably thehighest impact is the framework
around how to, as a leader,communicate more effectively and
authentically at work.
And so, you know, I actuallywould do some sorts of, you know
, trainings and workshops withcompanies, and again, it's not a
performance and a presentation,so this is not a media training
, this is not how to give a goodpodcast interview or you know
(26:42):
whatever.
It's really about, how do youtry to?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
By the way, we definitely need a framework for
that one.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
You could create a framework for that.
You'd probably make a lot ofmoney and a lot of success with
that.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
So many bad podcasts right now, you're flattering,
flattering.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
But the framework that really is just about.
What are the aspects thatreally all good leaders do or
think about when theycommunicate?
And there's just really fouraspects.
I call it the core framework,c-o-r-e.
The first is to be consistent,to be open, to be real and to be
educational.
(27:26):
Consistency is really about,again, trust and credibility.
If you're inconsistent all thetime and you're changing your
mind and changing the style,it's distracting and people have
a hard time knowing what you'reeven trying to talk about.
Again, you want people to knowwhat you want them to know.
Being open is both beingtransparent, because that builds
trust, and credibility, butopenness also means, to our
earlier point, vulnerable, beingopen and imperfect and
(27:48):
credibility.
But openness also means, to ourearlier point, vulnerable,
being open and imperfect.
The next one is real, and thatreally is about just don't have
a mask on, don't try to be MrCEO man or Madam CEO woman.
It's like be whoever you are,and part of that is also the
vulnerability creating a spaceand a culture within the team or
within your organization wherepeople can feel like they can
just be honest and real and, ifyou know what, or within your
(28:08):
organization where people canfeel like they can just be
honest and real and if you knowwhat.
You've messed something up oryou need to apologize.
Be real about it.
And then the last iseducational and this is a little
different than I thinksometimes what you'll hear in
communications trainings whichis leaders.
My favorite definition ofleadership is people follow you
when they have the choice not to.
And one of the main reasons whypeople follow leaders is
(28:29):
because they feel like they aregoing to learn something or
expand their thinking aboutsomething.
And so there's an aspect thereof like that just makes you more
relatable, because they're likeoh, you know he's, he went to
that cool conference and helearned something and he brought
it back.
Or oh, he's constantlylistening to interesting
podcasts and brings it into work.
Interesting podcasts and bringsit into work.
(28:51):
So all of these are both formsof how you show up as a leader,
but it's also how is it sharedwith other people, or how people
experience it.
It's through the ways that youcommunicate.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Top of the conversation.
You were talking about knowingyour audience and I promise to
get back to this and I'm a bigfan of listening and active
listening, but it's a reallyhard thing to do and it's a
really hard practice to get into.
What are some ways that yourecommend and have found
(29:32):
effective to become a betterlistener?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
One of the main sort of distinctions that I like to
make is what Molly referred toaround curiosity and so
listening kind of without anagenda.
And so there's in some worlds,you know, they'll talk about
sort of level one versus leveltwo listening.
And the level one listening islike listening with and from
(29:55):
your own perspective.
Right, you're listening forsomething with an agenda,
waiting for the person to stoptalking so that you can respond.
You're listening, you'rehearing, but you're not really
listening.
And then the level two is sortof really you're completely with
the person and it's without anagenda.
And that just requires practice.
But part of how you canpractice it is by asking the
(30:17):
types of questions that don'tlead you to an automatic or
expected response or lead to asituation.
It's one of the reasons why alot of people talk about don't
ask a question about well, why,why didn't you do this or why
did you do this Because it cancome across as you know instead
ask a what or a how question.
That's a very basic way ofgetting at the same concept.
(30:38):
But, the more you can try tojust be in a place of thinking
again it's the mindset and thennot really feel like you need to
immediately respond to what theperson is saying, to actually
sort of say hey, you know, whatI'm hearing you say is this Does
that actually sound right?
Did I get that right?
And it gives the person anopportunity to either say yes or
(31:01):
to say no, or to say yes, youdid hear it right, but actually
I didn't say it right.
Let me reframe.
Yes, you did hear it right, butactually I didn't say it right.
Let me reframe.
This is one of the reasons whyreally good therapists are super
useful, because they reflectback to you what they're hearing
and it gives you an opportunityto sort of say oh, actually,
yes, that's what I said, butthat actually doesn't when I
(31:22):
hear.
It isn't right.
And so this listening reallybeing with the person and
listening, especially in acorporate environment, in a work
environment, can include what'snot being said, and so part of
the job of a leader is to sortof try to draw people out a
little bit if you feel likeyou're not getting things.
So it's a mindset practice, Ithink, as much as a what are the
(31:45):
verbal cues that you're using?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I think as much as a.
What are the verbal cues thatyou're using?
Yeah, yeah, I love the focus onlevel two listening and how to
bring more of that in.
I mean, even if I think about,like the you know, as we're all
entering the age of AI, I thinkabout that level two listening
is actually a superhuman power,yeah, and so I think there's
something really, reallypowerful in that.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
A lot of AI is meant to please you.
It's meant to make you happy,right, and what we're talking
about is well, why do you dealwith somebody who maybe you
disagree and maybe I'm not hereto make you happy, but I want to
have a perfectly good, real,agreeable disagreement with you.
That's not something that AI isgoing to actually help us with.
In fact, it could make it a lotharder for us to have those
(32:32):
skills to be able to do well.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Andrew, let's talk clarity.
You've said that it's one ofthe most underrated superpowers
in leadership.
I think communication andclarity go hand in hand.
Why does clarity matter morethan ever in today's work
environment, especially when wehave so much noise and change
and remote collaboration beamingin from our closets and homes
(32:57):
and faraway destinations?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, so I actually I .
So, yes, I think about thissort of like when I was
describing openness earlier asbeing both transparent but also
vulnerability.
It's the same kind of concepthere, which is, when you're not
clear, it is both harder for theteam or the organization or
your customers or your clientsor your investors to actually
(33:23):
understand what you stand forand where you're going and what
you're trying to do.
So you risk a high degree ofmisunderstanding because
different people will interpretthings different ways and then
you've lost kind of anopportunity, right.
So clarity or lack of clarityis super confusing and
inefficient and it just leads toworse business outcomes.
(33:44):
But it also is, for me, almostit's like directness, it's like
a sign of almost disrespect,right.
If you're not clear you aremaking the other person or the
audience do a lot more of thework.
They're trying to both managemy if I'm not being clear with
you or if I'm not being directwith you.
It is like I'm making you dothe work of managing my Andrew's
(34:09):
emotional feeling discomfort.
I'm also making you try to oh,I don't always agree with him,
but I kind of know where heunderstands and he's treating me
(34:31):
like I'm adult, like I canhandle it.
I can handle the truth.
So, a lot of times when we'renot clear, it's because we
haven't done the work of beinghonest with ourselves.
Right, it's like we haven'tdone the work of well, why is
this hard for me to convey?
What do I really want theperson to do?
And when you do that, and whenyou do have a good intent, right
, I really do want us to all getbetter together.
(34:52):
It should make it a lot easierfor you to be clear or to be
direct with somebody you know.
Brene Brown always says likeclear is kind, it's like it's
not just about being nice, it'sactually just about it gets
better business results and itreally, over time, builds more
of a trust, of respect andcredibility.
So that's to me, it's superimportant.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I mean, I just I'm walking away with, like, if
there's lack of clarity that thework hasn't been done.
I'm a big believer in briefsLike.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I and.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I actually think a brief process takes time because
you're getting very clear aboutwhat you're doing and why.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah, speaking my language here, I know I love
myself.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I mean I actually have gotten teased about it and
I'm like, no, where's the brief?
And because it forces you to dothat work.
To get clear, I'm curious onthis topic of like
communications and clarity, Ifwe were to look at it at, let's
say, at the C-suite, when you'rein a room at the senior
leadership level or at theexecutive leadership level and
(35:54):
there actually are toughdecisions that have to be made
and there are more powerdynamics or there can be power
dynamics in that space, Arethere different techniques or
ways that those leaders candrive for clarity and better
communications in those moments?
Speaker 3 (36:13):
You know, I think this is I always default to like
asking questions rather thantelling, and I think if you sort
of listen and observe,especially in boardrooms or in
leadership team meetings, youknow you want to sort of listen
and learn more than you sort ofspeak right away.
And you also sort of want to bereally clear about is this my
(36:37):
responsibility or is it not,Especially in larger
organizations?
At a certain point as a leader,you have to understand, like
this is not my responsibility,Like I have an opinion and I
care about it and I could.
But in order to do my job well,I need to try to divorce my
personal opinion around it alittle bit from what's best for
the company.
(36:57):
This happens a lot in teamsthat are working around
sensitive social issues or forlarge corporations when they are
having to be advised by certainteam members around them.
You have to be really good atdivorcing, a little bit or a lot
, your sort of personalperspective and feeling on
things because of what's bestfor the organization.
(37:18):
And then it's like a choicethat everybody has to make.
You either stay on the bus oryou get off if that's what your
values and alignment is.
You get off if that's what youknow your values and alignment
is.
But in terms of acommunications exercise, I think
asking questions is a reallygood way to sort of get at it
and to sort of observe, to maybetalk a little bit less and to
sort of think is this a momentwhere I have a unique
(37:39):
responsibility, Like this, is myjob.
I should know I should speak up, or is?
it, you're offering it becauseyou have an opinion, even though
it's sort of out of your swimlane.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, this has been a fabulous conversation.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I've gotten so much out of this.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
The book is Honestly Speaking.
Check it out on Amazon.
We will link to it in our shownotes.
Andrew, thank you so much.
Where can our audience connectwith you and learn more about
your work?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Thank you so much.
So, linkedin I'm on LinkedInand you can also find me on my
website, which isazureleadership one word dot com
, and thank you so much for thegreat conversation.
I had a really great time.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
And that's the show.
Unserious is produced by MikeAvono.
Special thanks to our guest,andrew Blotke.
If you like this episode andknow somebody who needs help
with communication, please rateus and share it with a friend.
It's an easy way to maintainyour network and help Unserious
reach more great listeners likeyou.
And help Unserious reach moregreat listeners like you.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
(38:50):
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
unseriousfun or our website,unseriouscom.
At Unserious.
We make work play.
Yeah, it's probably justcottage cheese that you rub on
(39:12):
your face.
This is Unserious, but if we're honest with
ourselves, the most importantconversations are the ones that
we're not having.
We avoid them because they'reuncomfortable or because they
feel risky or because no oneever showed us how to do it well
.
But when it does work well,obstacles clear, trust deepens
(00:41):
and we step into a more powerfuland straightforward way of
working together.
I'm JB Skelton, here with MollyMcMahon.
Joining us is Andrew Blotke,leadership and communications
expert, who built and ledinternal communications teams at
Facebook and Johnson.
Johnson served in politicalcommunications at the White
(01:02):
House and Congress and now leadsthe Azure Leadership Group, an
executive coaching andconsulting firm specializing in,
amongst other thingscommunication.
He's one of my queer heroes, atrained mindfulness and yoga
teacher and the author of thebook Honestly Speaking how the
Way we Communicate TransformsLeadership, love and Life.
(01:25):
Andrew, thank you for beinghere.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
I'm so happy to be here and thank you for the kind
introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, well, let's dig right into it.
So your book really emphasizesand this is actually I think
this is the huge theme of yourbook.
It's actually one of thehardest things to grasp in your
book that it matters less whatyou say and more what people
hear.
Can you help unpack this for us, because I think it is a really
(01:55):
hard thing to imbue personally.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, no-transcript is.
(02:34):
We're in a conversation withpeople, right?
And so if you are trying tocommunicate somebody, it doesn't
matter how you say it ifthey're not internalizing it or
if it's not landing well, matterhow you say it if they're not
internalizing it or if it's notlanding well.
And so the whole idea ofcommunication the Latin root of
the word is about conjoining,bringing together, and so you
want to sort of think about whatare the ways that you can try
(02:55):
to be more in connection withpeople so that they understand
what you want them to understand.
You're trying to maximize yousometimes think of like a Venn
diagram.
You're trying to maximize myunderstanding and your
understanding of where theyoverlap.
You want them to sort of beoverlapping as much as possible
and that could be you know, Ialways talk about anything
that's worth communicating isbecause you want somebody to
(03:16):
know something or to dosomething or to feel something.
And so a lot of leaders willjust start thinking about what
they want to push out, ratherthan trying to think what do I
really need my audience to hearor to understand, or how do I
want them to feel?
So especially in this time a lotof leaders are trying to work
through.
How does my team need to feel?
(03:39):
How do I motivate them?
How do I make sure that we'reall operating in the same
direction?
How do I make them feel likethey belong in an organization?
And I think that we need toalmost get out of our own way.
So part of what I think aboutwhen I think about communicating
and training and coachingleaders, as I do, is how can you
help them to do more of thework of trying to understand who
(04:01):
their audience is and then tobe really honest with yourself
around what am I trying toconvey here?
What do I really want to convey?
And then you figure out what'sthe best way to get there.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I want to get to that audience piece in just a second
, but before that, how doesself-awareness and
self-understanding play intoeffective communication?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
A lot of times we'll start thinking about
communication, especially ifyou're in a leadership role, or
especially if you're in a publicforum, as a presentation or a
performance, and I think thatthat, especially in the world
that we're in now, where we allcarry around these devices and
at people's BS, meters arereally high, and so the more you
can just sort of think abouthow am I actually just going to
(04:45):
be communicating or connectingwith somebody in an authentic
way?
Just speak honestly, just behonest, be human, be who you are
, the better.
And so it requires work, thoughto do that, you need to both
have internalized and sort ofknow your brief, know the
substance of what you're talkingabout, but also really have
done the work of again, what doI really want somebody to feel
(05:05):
here?
Maybe it's just that I wantthem to feel appreciated, or
maybe I want them to know thatactually, this has been a really
hard week for me.
I don't have all the answers.
I messed up.
I apologize.
Here's how we're going tochange our strategy, but that
requires a little bit of work,it requires vulnerability and it
requires, as I say, being justreally honest with yourself.
So it's a mindset, it's lessperformance presentation Take
(05:29):
the mask off and really more.
Just here's who I am.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Here's who Andrew is here's how I'm going to try to
get the team.
This is a very busy time atwork right now and I'm juggling
probably 25 different balls andtwo of them dropped in the last
couple of weeks and uh, and Ijust had this like tense, uh
(05:56):
conversation with my managerabout how do I rebuild trust
here and think that that justlike changed the tenor and that
was a method that I sort oflearned from you.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, one of the things when you're in a
conversation like that that Ifound that can really help is to
sort of think about what do Iwant for me, what do I want for
the other person, and then whatdo I want for us, and that whole
then what do I?
want for us, and that whole whatdo I want for us is really
important and to sort of almostmake it more explicit, right?
So if you're talking to yourmanager or you're talking to
(06:34):
somebody who you manage, who'sdropped the ball here, want to
understand okay, what's wrongwith your work format?
Do we need to get you othersupport, or there are other ways
that we can help.
You know, whatever it is andtry to think about look, the
goal here is that everybody islike that we achieve the right
business results right, we'reall here to do a job, but also
(06:55):
that you are able to do reallygood work where you feel
supported.
Are there some things that I,as your manager, could take off
your plate?
Or could I help you prioritizeso that 25 becomes five?
Right, If you have 25 things,nothing can be a priority, and
so that's a whole leadershipthing that we should talk about,
could talk about.
But, I think the idea of tryingto separate out as a
(07:15):
communications exercise what amI wanting from this person, what
do I want for myself, and thenwhat do I want for both of us?
What's the ideal outcome hereJust helps you to sort of make
explicit what's often implicitand also eliminates a little bit
of the emotionality that cansometimes color the
(07:37):
conversations.
You want to try to be in aworld of action, not sort of
feeling as much.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That is an awesome framework and actually I'm
tucking that away for myself.
I wanted to just double clickJB.
Thank you for sharing this,because I have been in this
situation before.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
We all have.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
We all have and actually, what I struggle with
is that vulnerability piece anda feeling of insecurity and not
knowing how to ask for help inthose moments, and so I'm
curious is there any otherwisdom you would have for
helping people gather belief andself in those moments when you
(08:19):
do feel insecure?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah.
So the one just clarifyingpoint on that sort of little
framework is it's what do I wantRight, and so it's not a what
did you do wrong, what did I dowrong?
It's not an aspersed castingblame, it's forward looking.
It's like you know, thereprobably is some sort of you
know, look back, let's assesswhat happened so we don't repeat
it again.
But really what we're trying todo is be in a place of forward
(08:43):
looking, and that in and ofitself, by the way, requires an
immense amount of vulnerability,and so the vulnerability is not
like just be more vulnerable.
So what I'm interested in istrying to get people to sort of
see that little changes orlittle verbs or words that they
use or little actions actuallyare vulnerable.
I mean this conversation, jb,you were just quite vulnerable
(09:05):
in explaining that you weren'tperfect.
Guess what?
No one is perfect, right?
And so we want to sort of callthat out, make sure that we're
talking about it, observing it,seeing it and saying, hey,
that's great.
I also sort of think, asleaders, part of our job is to
try to create an environmentwhere it is acceptable and okay
to and I think, more and moresenior leaders the higher they
(09:27):
get, the less sort of vulnerablethey feel like they can be
because they're supposed to beperfect.
And especially right now, we'reseeing a world where this almost
like hyper-masculine,aggressive, bullying type way of
leading is seeping out of thegovernment into just our culture
and into our world, and so whatI'm saying may be a little time
counterintuitive, but I thinkthat what the world actually
(09:50):
needs more of is people who arejust being honest.
Vulnerability doesn't meanyou're talking about all your
emotions.
Doesn't mean even you arehaving a display of emotion.
It just means that, oh guesswhat?
You're not perfect.
We're all not perfect.
How can I try to be a littlebit curious about putting myself
in somebody else's shoes?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I think my own motto for this year and right now, as
I think about myselfprofessionally and personally,
is like curiosity over fear.
How can I be more curious,particularly in moments where
I'm feeling insecure, uncertain?
I definitely don't like to bevulnerable.
That's not my jam.
So I really love that wisdomaround being curious, because I
(10:33):
think that gives you the freedomto be kinder to yourself and
each other.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, and it's like at work.
None of us are really expectedto be and again to JB's point
earlier, none of us are reallytrained on how to do this.
None of us is taught this.
A lot of us are really expectedto be.
And again to JB's point earlier, none of us are really trained
on how to do this.
None of us is taught this.
A lot of us don't learn this inschool.
It's culturally, in many partsof the world, including the
United States, not particularlyaccepted.
But this is why some of thework of like Brene Brown and
even like Mel Robbins and othersthey're trying to get at it
(11:01):
from lots of different types ofangles, but it's really all kind
of the same thing, which isjust be kind of more honest,
just be more who?
you are and just be like this iswho I am right.
You are not a job title.
You are a person performing arole at this time within this
particular system.
So it's a role.
It's not you.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Well, I, I I'm going to challenge you on that one
Cause I do think that weactually have learned to have,
we've learned how to have toughconversations poorly and like in
a weaponized kind of way.
We sort of use it as ammunitionrather than as a um, as a
(11:39):
generous conversation.
Um with each other, generousconversation with each other.
How do you make space to haveaccountability and honesty
without meanness, veiled likeit's feedback.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think that this is partly why I mean
people who do it really well.
Are that question around, likewhat do I want for both of us is
so important right?
What do I want for this workingrelationship here?
Right, because it gets you outof the sort of winning, losing
fight, flight me you, you know,uh, sort of hierarchy, power or
(12:15):
sort of dynamic conversation, um, and so even if you were
talking with a boss who's verystuck in that mindset, you still
can sort of think about well,look like what I really want
here is for us to sort of have areally good working team.
Like, I want to work here, Iwant to perform, I want to meet
your expectations.
So it's around finding commonground.
It's like you want to sort ofhave a like a pool of shared
(12:38):
meaning, right?
So you're operating in the samesort of general world of like,
what are we all here to do?
We're all working at the samecompany, we're all on the same
team, we all have the samestrategic business objective
that we got to meet by the endof the quarter.
What are the common threads here?
What are the commonalities?
And then you break it apart.
Hey, what are the couple ofthings that we can agree on?
We can at least agree that wewant to have another
(13:00):
conversation tomorrow.
Great, build on the littleagreements that you have so that
you can get to a place whereyou're not in that sort of
winning losing mentality.
So, finding that common ground,finding a sense of just making
explicit hey, this is what Iwant for us.
What do you want?
Ask, ask To your point, molly.
Really I love that beingcurious.
(13:20):
Ask a question what do you seeis the best way forward for both
of us?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
yeah, yeah, I love that.
I love those prompts I I knowthat I need.
Often, particularly when I'mwhen there's fear involved, I
almost need those types ofprompts to help me guide myself
and others.
Okay, so welcome to Hire FireBoss.
(13:48):
You can take a wild guess whatthis game is about.
Basically, we're going to givea fictional scenario with three
characters and you're going tohave to hire one, you're going
to have to fire one, one and oneis going to have to be your
boss.
Sound good.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Sounds great.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Okay.
Your objective with this dreamteam is you guys are launching a
lifestyle brand that helpspeople slow down and find their
center.
It's part mindfulness, partmovement, part leadership reboot
.
You need a team with the rightstuff to make this all happen.
(14:28):
Here is your list of candidates.
The first person you can choosefrom is Steve Jobs, Apple
co-founder and communicator,extraordinaire, obsessed with
elegance and clarity.
The second option is SamanthaJones from Sex and the City, a
PR powerhouse, unapologetic,bold, would crush any launch,
(14:53):
possibly too unfiltered forinternal comms.
And then last we have GwynethPaltrow Goop CEO, candle and
jade egg provocateur, legalsavvy.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Deer Valley fan.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
All right, so that is your dream team Andrew.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Oh boy, how would?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
you put this crew together.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
I think I would want Samantha to be my boss.
Yeah, and I think I would wantSamantha to be my boss, yeah,
and I think I would probablyfire Steve Jobs and I would
probably hire Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
What's your reasoning there?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I think Steve Jobs would be incredibly difficult to
work with and work for, and Ithink he would have a very
specific idea about how thisshould go, and I'm not sure that
that is good team player kindof work.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
He's not very flexible.
He didn't have a reputation forbeing flexible.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I mean he built and created amazing things and it
was so him.
I think Samantha Jones is likevision but also compassion and
actually as the series went on,especially toward the end, but
also compassion and actually asthe series went on, especially
toward the end, ended up beingsort of the adult in the room,
heart forward kind of personthat sort of was beautiful and
(16:12):
like kind of who?
you want as your boss.
And then Gwyneth Paltrow I feellike you know probably has some
really good stuff.
We got to write that job recreally carefully.
We got to find what we want herto actually do, but I feel like
there's some goodness there.
And I feel like the calmness,the brand, the slowing down.
(16:34):
She's worked in the lifestylebrand, so probably a submit
offer.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
I actually would switch Samantha.
So I agree with you Fire Steve.
I think he's the wrong personto either work with or be my
boss, Particularly on thisproject.
I don't think a mindfulnessproject with Steve Jobs I was
like no.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, but didn't he?
He was like steeped in EasternBuddhism, wasn't he Steeped in
Eastern traditions?
And I just feel like his way ofshowing it would be like the
way to do it as opposed to Idon't know, there could be, but
that's not.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
that's like the least Buddhist way of doing it Right.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I don't know, I'm not enlightened enough.
Maybe, maybe he was, maybe I'vemade a bad choice.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
That's right.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Anyway.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Steve's out.
I agree with you.
I think I would want to workalongside Samantha, I think, for
all the same reasons that yousaid.
I think she has this incredibleheart and she would just be a
lot of fun to work alongsidethat.
(17:48):
Gwyneth, I think, brings a lotof particularly knowledge in and
sort of some knowledge gapsthat I have in the mindfulness
space.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, actually, I feel like all of these folks are
meant to be bosses.
Yeah, so I was like whoa, thisis a hard group of cats to
wrangle.
Yeah, yeah, the one thing.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I have learned enough in my own career and I now work
with a lot of people on.
This is like who your manageris, who your boss is so
important, and so I was thinking, okay, who would I rather have
as my boss, samantha or Gwynethand for me it's definitely
Samantha, but I think it justdepends on what's the best for
the business versus you as anemployee.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So you know, gwyneth runs cooler, I think, than
Samantha, and I run warmer, andso I actually think it's a nice
counterbalance.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, that would be good for you.
Yeah, great.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So you think that Gwyneth could manage JB I?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
think she probably already does.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Probably some like face product called that or
something.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Just created.
Oh my God.
Yeah, it's probably justcottage cheese that you rub on
your face.
That's probably right that yourub on your face, that's
probably right.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I'm curious about feedback because a lot of
companies say that they valuehonest communication.
They talk about things likeradical candor.
Feedback is a gift.
We embrace hard conversations.
I haven't seen a lot of that inaction.
I actually I saw a lot of it inaction during my time at IDEO
(19:31):
because I think it's built intothe design process, but I don't
I haven't seen it in otheraspects of work done really well
.
Why is there such a gap betweenstated culture and what
actually happens when we talkabout wanting to gather feedback
and have those types ofcritical conversations?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I think companies are very aspirational and they say
they want one thing, but thenthey don't actually invest in it
and help people do it inreality.
So you say you want to have aculture that's open or that
values feedback and hardconversations, but then maybe
you haven't invested in it, notonly to just put people through
a training to give them someskills on it which there are
also a lot of really shittytrainings out there but also
(20:13):
then you're not holding peopleaccountable for the behaviors
that you want and rewarding thebehaviors that are really good
when you see them.
And partly this requires aleadership, sort of at the top
sort of setting the tone, but italso requires day-to-day
managers in moment-to-momentconversations and decisions,
living this every day.
But I think to your point ofwhy companies don't do this
(20:36):
really well is because oftenit's not invested in and because
we don't hold peopleaccountable both positively and
sort of constructively for it.
One of the little piece of sortof guidance that I was given
once that I love and I'veadopted it myself is, rather
than just framing it in terms offeedback, is to talk about it
(20:58):
more in terms of guidance, andso especially when you're asking
somebody, hey, I want you togive me feedback.
There's ways that you can askingsomebody, hey, I want you to
give me feedback.
There's ways that you can askthem that will give you
something that's useful to you.
But framing it in terms ofguidance is both more
forward-looking, so it's moreuseful, and it also tends to
just sort of be a little less ofa rot immediate kind of
(21:21):
antagonistic kind of mindset.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I'm no good on my own .
I am.
I'm a team animal Like.
I like to be in it witheverybody else and I'm going to
build off of other people'sideas.
I'm I.
That is how I believe the bestwork gets done, and so when I
think about guidance, I alsothink it's my job to ask people
for what I need what type ofguidance I need depending on
(21:46):
where I am in the work, likeearly on, you can tear it up
like no one's business.
If it's just the back of theenvelope, go to town, I love it.
If we're at the end and I needto deliver it in two hours, I
can't handle it.
You know we talked some aboutcritical conversations, but do
you think that we also sometimesabout critical conversations,
but do you think that we alsosometimes avoid good
(22:08):
conversations as well?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, for sure, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Like is that?
I'm curious.
Like, when was the last timeyou took someone aside to tell
them that you appreciate theirwork?
Like, is that something that'slike baked into your practice?
Is that something that you helpyour clients with?
And I say this because I knowthat actually I gave some
guidance to someone who wasmanaging me.
I was in my two months ofstarting a new job and I was
like, actually no one's asked mehow I'm doing, no one's asked
(22:36):
me that in two months, whichmakes me go my brain.
My mind can go into overdrivewhen there's nothing happening.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, for sure, Totally.
You know there's yeah, there'sa couple things on this.
So our minds, our brains, humanbrains, are like wired to sort
of look for problems, right andso it's like the fight or flight
, problem solving, and sothere's a reason why we tend to
sort of live in the negative,and that's one of the reasons
why so many of the spiritualtraditions like you mentioned
(23:05):
earlier mindfulness, slowingdown, the lifestyle brand that
Samantha Jones and Gwyneth aregoing to help us create is all
sort of like I'm in, I'm in, I'min, but it's a little bit of
this like helps break you out ofthat by thinking well, what are
you?
It's like appreciative inquiryis one of the ideas in that
world.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
The idea is what did you do?
The other AI?
Speaker 3 (23:27):
What did we do?
What do more of what's working,you know, express appreciation
and gratitude for people.
I mean, one of the best ways toantidotes to fear and to
anxiety that we all experienceis to sort of notice well, what
am I grateful for, what are thethings that actually you know?
And to take a moment to do that.
It's especially meaningful topeople in an organization who
(23:48):
are working hard.
I was just working.
I still have a client now.
It's a leadership team.
I'm doing a bunch of leadershipcoaching with the team and one
of the themes that came out ofour last session one of our last
sessions was the idea that likethere are certain who are
busting their ass, workingreally hard and nobody actually
stops to just be like hey, I seeyou, thank you, I really
(24:08):
appreciate what you're doing.
How are you?
You don't even need to get intoa deep conversation, but just
that really was verbally calledout among a couple of people on
this team.
It's like I just need more ofthat, and so I think we
sometimes think that it's likeunnecessary or that it doesn't
have a positive impact, but Iwill tell you, like study after
(24:30):
study, business schools, youknow, social science, research
will tell you that appreciationand gratitude and recognition is
one of the most highly flexedlevers that leaders have in
getting the best out of theirteam, and it also makes it
that's a form of vulnerabilityright.
It makes it far easier to thencreate a situation where you can
(24:51):
have the productive,constructive or hard
conversation because you'vebuilt a well of genuine
appreciation.
The worst thing, I think, is todo what we call like the shit
sandwich, which is just like youdid this really well, you
didn't do this well, but oh,this is okay, and then I have no
idea what you've actually been.
It's not honest.
I can't tell.
What did you?
(25:11):
You know?
Are you couching it?
Just because you whatever?
So take the moments to expressappreciation gradually when
somebody does something reallywell or if they've worked really
hard, so that you then have theopportunity to be in a trusted
way when you need to course,correct or give some good
guidance.
It's like that didn't workreally well.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Did you all see the Saturday Night Live season
finale where they were doingcomms coaching and they were
basically coaching the shitsandwich?
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Oh, they were no really.
Oh, I need to watch this.
It was really funny.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
It was really funny.
They were like say somethingnice, Feedback, say something
nice.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah, oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
People pick and choose what they want to listen
to in the shit sandwich too.
That's the other thing.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
That's actually a really good point Totally.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
And then you've lost an opportunity to actually
deliver any meaningful guidancein the first place.
That's right so people are likewhat am I supposed to do?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Well, I want to change gears here, because you
talk about so many amazingframeworks in your book.
Can you walk us through onethat you have found particularly
valuable and particularly highimpact?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah.
So I mean, I think probably thehighest impact is the framework
around how to, as a leader,communicate more effectively and
authentically at work.
And so, you know, I actuallywould do some sorts of, you know
, trainings and workshops withcompanies, and again, it's not a
performance and a presentation,so this is not a media training
, this is not how to give a goodpodcast interview or you know
(26:42):
whatever.
It's really about, how do youtry to?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
By the way, we definitely need a framework for
that one.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
You could create a framework for that.
You'd probably make a lot ofmoney and a lot of success with
that.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
So many bad podcasts right now, you're flattering,
flattering.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
But the framework that really is just about.
What are the aspects thatreally all good leaders do or
think about when theycommunicate?
And there's just really fouraspects.
I call it the core framework,c-o-r-e.
The first is to be consistent,to be open, to be real and to be
educational.
(27:26):
Consistency is really about,again, trust and credibility.
If you're inconsistent all thetime and you're changing your
mind and changing the style,it's distracting and people have
a hard time knowing what you'reeven trying to talk about.
Again, you want people to knowwhat you want them to know.
Being open is both beingtransparent, because that builds
trust, and credibility, butopenness also means, to our
earlier point, vulnerable, beingopen and imperfect and
(27:48):
credibility.
But openness also means, to ourearlier point, vulnerable,
being open and imperfect.
The next one is real, and thatreally is about just don't have
a mask on, don't try to be MrCEO man or Madam CEO woman.
It's like be whoever you are,and part of that is also the
vulnerability creating a spaceand a culture within the team or
within your organization wherepeople can feel like they can
just be honest and real and, ifyou know what, or within your
(28:08):
organization where people canfeel like they can just be
honest and real and if you knowwhat.
You've messed something up oryou need to apologize.
Be real about it.
And then the last iseducational and this is a little
different than I thinksometimes what you'll hear in
communications trainings whichis leaders.
My favorite definition ofleadership is people follow you
when they have the choice not to.
And one of the main reasons whypeople follow leaders is
(28:29):
because they feel like they aregoing to learn something or
expand their thinking aboutsomething.
And so there's an aspect thereof like that just makes you more
relatable, because they're likeoh, you know he's, he went to
that cool conference and helearned something and he brought
it back.
Or oh, he's constantlylistening to interesting
podcasts and brings it into work.
Interesting podcasts and bringsit into work.
(28:51):
So all of these are both formsof how you show up as a leader,
but it's also how is it sharedwith other people, or how people
experience it.
It's through the ways that youcommunicate.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Top of the conversation.
You were talking about knowingyour audience and I promise to
get back to this and I'm a bigfan of listening and active
listening, but it's a reallyhard thing to do and it's a
really hard practice to get into.
What are some ways that yourecommend and have found
(29:32):
effective to become a betterlistener?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
One of the main sort of distinctions that I like to
make is what Molly referred toaround curiosity and so
listening kind of without anagenda.
And so there's in some worlds,you know, they'll talk about
sort of level one versus leveltwo listening.
And the level one listening islike listening with and from
(29:55):
your own perspective.
Right, you're listening forsomething with an agenda,
waiting for the person to stoptalking so that you can respond.
You're listening, you'rehearing, but you're not really
listening.
And then the level two is sortof really you're completely with
the person and it's without anagenda.
And that just requires practice.
But part of how you canpractice it is by asking the
(30:17):
types of questions that don'tlead you to an automatic or
expected response or lead to asituation.
It's one of the reasons why alot of people talk about don't
ask a question about well, why,why didn't you do this or why
did you do this Because it cancome across as you know instead
ask a what or a how question.
That's a very basic way ofgetting at the same concept.
(30:38):
But, the more you can try tojust be in a place of thinking
again it's the mindset and thennot really feel like you need to
immediately respond to what theperson is saying, to actually
sort of say hey, you know, whatI'm hearing you say is this Does
that actually sound right?
Did I get that right?
And it gives the person anopportunity to either say yes or
(31:01):
to say no, or to say yes, youdid hear it right, but actually
I didn't say it right.
Let me reframe.
Yes, you did hear it right, butactually I didn't say it right.
Let me reframe.
This is one of the reasons whyreally good therapists are super
useful, because they reflectback to you what they're hearing
and it gives you an opportunityto sort of say oh, actually,
yes, that's what I said, butthat actually doesn't when I
(31:22):
hear.
It isn't right.
And so this listening reallybeing with the person and
listening, especially in acorporate environment, in a work
environment, can include what'snot being said, and so part of
the job of a leader is to sortof try to draw people out a
little bit if you feel likeyou're not getting things.
So it's a mindset practice, Ithink, as much as a what are the
(31:45):
verbal cues that you're using?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I think as much as a.
What are the verbal cues thatyou're using?
Yeah, yeah, I love the focus onlevel two listening and how to
bring more of that in.
I mean, even if I think about,like the you know, as we're all
entering the age of AI, I thinkabout that level two listening
is actually a superhuman power,yeah, and so I think there's
something really, reallypowerful in that.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
A lot of AI is meant to please you.
It's meant to make you happy,right, and what we're talking
about is well, why do you dealwith somebody who maybe you
disagree and maybe I'm not hereto make you happy, but I want to
have a perfectly good, real,agreeable disagreement with you.
That's not something that AI isgoing to actually help us with.
In fact, it could make it a lotharder for us to have those
(32:32):
skills to be able to do well.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Andrew, let's talk clarity.
You've said that it's one ofthe most underrated superpowers
in leadership.
I think communication andclarity go hand in hand.
Why does clarity matter morethan ever in today's work
environment, especially when wehave so much noise and change
and remote collaboration beamingin from our closets and homes
(32:57):
and faraway destinations?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yeah, so I actually I .
So, yes, I think about thissort of like when I was
describing openness earlier asbeing both transparent but also
vulnerability.
It's the same kind of concepthere, which is, when you're not
clear, it is both harder for theteam or the organization or
your customers or your clientsor your investors to actually
(33:23):
understand what you stand forand where you're going and what
you're trying to do.
So you risk a high degree ofmisunderstanding because
different people will interpretthings different ways and then
you've lost kind of anopportunity, right.
So clarity or lack of clarityis super confusing and
inefficient and it just leads toworse business outcomes.
(33:44):
But it also is, for me, almostit's like directness, it's like
a sign of almost disrespect,right.
If you're not clear you aremaking the other person or the
audience do a lot more of thework.
They're trying to both managemy if I'm not being clear with
you or if I'm not being directwith you.
It is like I'm making you dothe work of managing my Andrew's
(34:09):
emotional feeling discomfort.
I'm also making you try to oh,I don't always agree with him,
but I kind of know where heunderstands and he's treating me
(34:31):
like I'm adult, like I canhandle it.
I can handle the truth.
So, a lot of times when we'renot clear, it's because we
haven't done the work of beinghonest with ourselves.
Right, it's like we haven'tdone the work of well, why is
this hard for me to convey?
What do I really want theperson to do?
And when you do that, and whenyou do have a good intent, right
, I really do want us to all getbetter together.
(34:52):
It should make it a lot easierfor you to be clear or to be
direct with somebody you know.
Brene Brown always says likeclear is kind, it's like it's
not just about being nice, it'sactually just about it gets
better business results and itreally, over time, builds more
of a trust, of respect andcredibility.
So that's to me, it's superimportant.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I mean, I just I'm walking away with, like, if
there's lack of clarity that thework hasn't been done.
I'm a big believer in briefsLike.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
I and.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I actually think a brief process takes time because
you're getting very clear aboutwhat you're doing and why.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah, speaking my language here, I know I love
myself.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I mean I actually have gotten teased about it and
I'm like, no, where's the brief?
And because it forces you to dothat work.
To get clear, I'm curious onthis topic of like
communications and clarity, Ifwe were to look at it at, let's
say, at the C-suite, when you'rein a room at the senior
leadership level or at theexecutive leadership level and
(35:54):
there actually are toughdecisions that have to be made
and there are more powerdynamics or there can be power
dynamics in that space, Arethere different techniques or
ways that those leaders candrive for clarity and better
communications in those moments?
Speaker 3 (36:13):
You know, I think this is I always default to like
asking questions rather thantelling, and I think if you sort
of listen and observe,especially in boardrooms or in
leadership team meetings, youknow you want to sort of listen
and learn more than you sort ofspeak right away.
And you also sort of want to bereally clear about is this my
(36:37):
responsibility or is it not,Especially in larger
organizations?
At a certain point as a leader,you have to understand, like
this is not my responsibility,Like I have an opinion and I
care about it and I could.
But in order to do my job well,I need to try to divorce my
personal opinion around it alittle bit from what's best for
the company.
(36:57):
This happens a lot in teamsthat are working around
sensitive social issues or forlarge corporations when they are
having to be advised by certainteam members around them.
You have to be really good atdivorcing, a little bit or a lot
, your sort of personalperspective and feeling on
things because of what's bestfor the organization.
(37:18):
And then it's like a choicethat everybody has to make.
You either stay on the bus oryou get off if that's what your
values and alignment is.
You get off if that's what youknow your values and alignment
is.
But in terms of acommunications exercise, I think
asking questions is a reallygood way to sort of get at it
and to sort of observe, to maybetalk a little bit less and to
sort of think is this a momentwhere I have a unique
(37:39):
responsibility, Like this, is myjob.
I should know I should speak up, or is?
it, you're offering it becauseyou have an opinion, even though
it's sort of out of your swimlane.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, this has been a fabulous conversation.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I've gotten so much out of this.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
The book is Honestly Speaking.
Check it out on Amazon.
We will link to it in our shownotes.
Andrew, thank you so much.
Where can our audience connectwith you and learn more about
your work?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Thank you so much.
So, linkedin I'm on LinkedInand you can also find me on my
website, which isazureleadership one word dot com
, and thank you so much for thegreat conversation.
I had a really great time.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
And that's the show.
Unserious is produced by MikeAvono.
Special thanks to our guest,andrew Blotke.
If you like this episode andknow somebody who needs help
with communication, please rateus and share it with a friend.
It's an easy way to maintainyour network and help Unserious
reach more great listeners likeyou.
And help Unserious reach moregreat listeners like you.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
(38:50):
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
unseriousfun or our website,unseriouscom.
At Unserious.
We make work play.
Yeah, it's probably justcottage cheese that you rub on
(39:12):
your face.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.