December 5, 2024 • 37 mins
Preparing for the future doesn’t make a lot of sense at a time when the unknowns feel like they outnumber the knowns. Nowadays we encourage our young people to be quick on their feet and have transferable skills. But what if instead of waiting for the future to happen, we could take an active role in designing it? What would it take to develop the mindset, imagination, and skills, to shape futures that are equitable, creative, and sustainable?
In this episode, J.B. and Molly explore the process of shaping our futures through creativity and empathy with Laura McBain, Managing Director of the Stanford d.school and author of the book My Favorite Failure.
"Our job is helping people recover the imagination they've always had. How do I not just imagine what that world might be, but how could I start building toward it?" - Laura McBain
You can follow Laura on LinkedIn to see her, in her words, "repost with no comment."
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Unserious.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Preparing for the future doesn't make a lot of
sense at a time when theunknowns feel like they
outnumber the knowns.
Nowadays, we encourage ouryoung people to be quick on
their feet and have transferableskills.
But what if, instead of waitingfor the future to happen, we
could take an active role indesigning it?
What would it take to developthe mindset, imagination and
(00:41):
skills to shape futures that areequitable, creative and
sustainable?
I'm Molly McMahon, joined by JBSkelton, and we're here with
Laura McBain, managing Directorof the Stanford D School and an
educator on the Futurist Mindset.
She is the author of the bookmy Favorite Failure how Setbacks
(01:03):
Can Lead to Learning and Growth.
She is an adventurer, camper,stand-up paddler who we've
caught somewhere between Croatiaand Guyana today.
Thank you for joining us, laura.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you, so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It's great to have you.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
So, laura, I'm going to jump right on in.
You have written and taught onthe topic of futuring in the
context of design and educationand inclusion, so I'm curious
what does futuring mean to you?
Is it a real word?
And verb?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I like it's a word I mean.
Interesting enough, I don't usethe word futuring.
I think that's maybe thestarting thing is.
I mean, you can, I guess, usethat as a word, verb adjective,
I don't know, like Googling, Idon't know Google, they're all
doing that, but yeah, I don'tknow, you don't say, let's go
featuring today.
Let's go featuring.
(01:56):
It's like you know, foraging,featuring truffles.
You know a lot.
I mean, in all seriousness,like I do spend a lot of time
helping people unlock theirimagination, and so you know,
and the work that I do whetherit's nonprofit work, for-profit
education, you name it it'sreally helping people.
One and then number two, likehow my they might shape more
(02:19):
preferable futures, because Ithink the thing of futuring is
actually, when we say futures,there's actually more than one
possible future.
That is the reality.
There is wildcard futures,preferable futures, possible
futures, plausible futures, andso when we work with people,
part of the crux of it is likereally three basic questions how
(02:39):
might the world change and why?
Right, how might we design moreequitable futures and how we
might really uncover needs inpossible futures.
And that's the human-centeredpiece of this.
Right, we know there'll beneeds in the future, and so, as
a human-centered designer, myjob in helping people think
about the future is not just toimagine it, but how might we
(03:01):
uncover and plan for and shapeand build the needs that we
might have in those possiblefutures, so that we're living in
a place where we're not alwaysreacting to the future, but in a
place where we actually canshape and really think about
building the agency of what thekind of world we want to build
(03:26):
do you think it's important tounlock imagination and have that
ability to think aboutequitable futures and different
types of futures?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Why is that an important skill in the world
today?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
There's so many things we can say.
I mean one.
You can look outside.
We've got climate change, we'vegot crazy elections, and the
world is moving really quicklyright Between like AI we call it
like the volatile, uncertain,complex, ambiguous future, and
so part of why it's reallyimportant is twofold is like the
world is happening to us aroundvery quickly, right, you know,
(03:56):
when we think about theevolution of time.
The iPhone came out in 2008.
Wow, the world looked radicallydifferent in 2018, didn't it?
That's 10 years, yep, and sopart of why I think we want
people to do that is to unlockthat imagination, but also so
that we can actually build adifferent world that actually
(04:18):
take into consideration themassive challenges that are
facing our planet.
And what we do know is that,like, how we've designed things
in the past has not worked formost people.
So how might we create moreliberatory futures where all
people are seen, all people arevalued and we actually all have
the capacity to thrive in whatwe think are these dynamic?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
futures.
In thinking about that, like Idon't think folks in the world,
often of work and maybe even inour personal lives, know how to
prepare for the future or how toembrace that type of mindset,
can you describe how you helpshift that mindset inside of
inside of people, teams, whatthat takes?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I mean there's so many different ways to start,
just like we started today.
We could call them creativeapproaches, but I think number
one it's actually helping peoplebuild empathy for the future.
That's number one.
So how might we think ofourselves as ancestors to the
future?
So one is like a much moredeeper sense of like if I
imagine my, my child's, child'schild, my descendant,
descendant's world.
(05:20):
My responsibility is to helpdesign a better world for that
person.
We all have a legacy in thatregard.
So there's a will right there.
Like who are we designing for?
Like that's always a question.
We all will have ancestors, wehave them and we all be
descendants, like that whole mix.
We have to get clear on that.
And then, when we think aboutthis capacity, like all of us
(05:41):
have had this possibility, whenyou think back to imagination
and we're all sitting here I'mknowing you know folks like you
all, molly and JB, pretty wellon the call Like we're all kind
of nerds, we all like sci-fi,anyone that's got wrapped into.
Like why we love Star Wars, whywe love Hunger Games, why we
love all these like imaginativeworlds, is because they did
(06:02):
build a different world thanexists around here worlds is
because they build a differentworld than exists around here,
and so our job is helping peopleactually recover, if you will,
the imagination that they'vealways had.
And so we start doing thatthrough giving people things to
build, just like you do indesign, like whether it's a
prototype, an image of what'spossible, and we can use
(06:23):
methodologies like a making, wecan build ancestor pictures, we
can build artifacts from thefuture all of these different
modalities to get people tothink how do I not just imagine
what that world might be, buthow could I start building
toward it?
So, but I think it alwaysstarts with, like, what kind of
world you want to build and forwhom?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I love it.
Well, it's almost even as yousay that I'm like it's a little
bit also like it's that mix ofimagination and backwards
planning from like an outcomeslens.
There's something really coolabout that.
I love that language of likerecovering your imagination,
because we do um like we're not.
I was just was thinking about,like my 10 year old self and how
(07:03):
someone asked me, like whatwere you like when you were 10
years old?
And I was like I was superimaginative.
Yeah, um, like I played hardand I played a lot of pretend
games, which is world building,and I was imagining different
futures for myself.
I do not do that now.
I'm like caught in, like, uh,I'm caught in anxious loops of
thinking um more more fear-basedthan possibility-based.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
I mean, I don't know where I saw this, but I was.
I was seeing a parentreflecting on watching their
child and the parent was like Iwant to, I want to draw, but I I
just look at a blank piece ofpaper and I can't figure out
what to draw.
And a nine-year-old neverthinks about what to draw, they
(07:48):
just draw.
It's really amazing to watchjust how those growing minds are
so connected to creativity.
We're all based here in SiliconValley and we very smugly think
we own the future.
And, as Molly noted, you'rejust back from Croatia.
You're headed to Guyana.
Your bags are packed therebehind you.
(08:09):
In your estimation, how much ofthe future is going to be
driven by creativity outside ofour familiar worlds?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I mean this is a really important question, right
?
I think there's a Fred Pollack,you know, who kind of coined
the futures game, asked acritical question, which is two
questions.
One is like how do you feelabout the future?
Are you optimistic orpessimistic?
And then your question, jb, iswho will shape the future?
And I think you know the workthat I do is, you know, really
around, how do we give everyonethe capacity to shape it,
(08:39):
whether that's throughimagination, through trend
casting, and I think we all sitin a world like the world is
going to be run by an Elon Musk,right, or it's going to be a
Bill Gates, you know, we alsohave people like Greta Thunberg,
right, who have been activelyshaping the future for herself,
people like Octavia Butler, whohave imagined different worlds,
and so I think that, like, yourquestion is who's going to do it
(09:01):
?
I actually don't think it's who.
It's like, it is us, yeah, it'sus, it's actually us.
We are the people we're lookingfor.
And I think I think a lot ofthis stuff when we think about
futures and futures again has along history, you know comes
from people like Octavia Butler.
It comes from, you know, theRand corporation and government
stuff.
So it has been out there in theworld and I think for many
(09:22):
people you know whether you'reliving in this area or they're
living in Guyana or any otherplace on the country like our
capacity to shape the future.
Everyone has that right,everybody does, and so how do we
give not only that agency, thatsense of fulfillment and giving
people some of the tools to doit?
You know, so that we're notgoing to be run by.
You know the muscles of theworld, but all of us have the
(09:45):
capacity in our own communitiesof what that looks like and that
looks like to them.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
We like to get started with warmups and believe
in creative warmups, and theone that we do on our show is
called Hire, fire Boss.
Okay, the task is reimaginingthe future of sound, and let's
put it in design language howmight we reimagine the future of
sound?
I'm in, and so we have a listof candidates.
(10:19):
You are going to have to hireone, fire one, and select one to
be your boss.
Okay, and those candidates forthis task of reimagining the
future of sound are some of ourfavorite rockers.
So we have got Jon Bon Jovi,bryan Adams that is right and
(10:43):
Seal.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
And I say this because Lauren and I did just go
to a Seal concert together.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
So let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Okay Interesting I mean interesting enough that I
remember you and I tried to gettickets to jump on Jovi.
Um, I think a while back wejust didn't happen.
I think COVID happened and wedidn't get to go.
Um, these are tough choices,let's be honest.
These are really hard choicesbecause each one of them are
still actually employed, soevery single one of them still
(11:16):
have a job, so they've neverbeen fired.
Let's be honest, that's right,that's right.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
They're on top of craft.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
So I would say, the person that I would fire we say
Brian Adams.
Is that what we're saying?
We're saying Brian Adams Okay,I think, I think I would fire
him.
He's out, he's out.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
He's out.
Okay, I mean artists, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
But I would say regularly in growing up every
song yeah, yeah, he hasn't had alot of bangers in the most
recent years, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So I think that, um, I think he's out Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Okay, and then who would you?
Who would you hire and whowould you have as a boss?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Oh, well, um, I definitely would hire.
I think it's Bon Jovi wouldhire, partly because, I mean,
here's the thing this guy isstill rocking, he is like and
he's still doing denim.
Let's be honest, I don't thinkhe shifted.
Look he still looks good.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
He does look good and I believe I did it look he
still looks good.
He does look good and I believeI read something on apple news
that he just saved somebody offa bridge in nashville in the
middle of um filming a uh video.
He did.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Someone was gonna jump off and he like saved them
from like yeah, like mere death,yeah.
So I think he's, he's solid,you know for sure.
And then I think, obviously, Iwould hire.
I think the boss is still, andI'll tell you why why, why is
like Molly and I were at aconcert and this was recent.
Like I went to this concertlike 20 years ago, but no, it
(12:47):
was actually like last spring.
Like it was like, yeah, buthere's what I love about him Not
only did he like bring all thesongs back, he went into the
audience and then you know what.
You know, what a good leaderdoes Is he looked around the
audiences.
You know you all are cold.
I'm not gonna take myintermission, I'm gonna keep
rolling because I know you allare cold in this room and you
(13:10):
got your blankets and I'm gonnakeep rocking so that you stay
warm and not go home and go cold.
So that is what a good bossdoes.
He's like saw what everyoneneeded and he's like I'm going
to push through because you allare cold and I'm going to finish
the show.
So he's the boss.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, and everybody flocked around him.
They did.
Everyone wanted a little pieceof seal, just a little touch.
Jb, how about you?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
How did Brian Adams make it onto this list?
It's not hard to fire him.
I was just looking at hisalbums and the first thing that
pops up is Reggae Christmas,reggae Christmas.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Oh no, but you got like the Summer of 69.
No.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I know you got Summer of 69.
You got Forever.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Young.
No, I know You've got Summer of69.
You've got Forever Young, theMusketeers song that broke all
the girls' hearts.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I just, I just like the first thing on Google.
The first thing on Google aBrian.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Adams song was Reggae Christmas.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I'm just, I'm just saying, that's the search result
yeah, so I was a Boy Scout.
Our motto is to be prepared,and in your work and writing you
advocate for shifting frompreparing for the future to
(14:30):
shaping the future.
Can you describe the mindsetshift that people have to take?
How do I become a futurist?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Well, I mean, that's a really good one, because I
think all of us there are thingswe can learn.
So let's, like you know, let'sdive into that.
So, like you know, I work witha lot of you know, educators and
companies and there are likecritical, I would say, skills we
need, like, I would say,literacy and numeracy, right,
but I think they're fundamentalrights.
We all should have thatcapacity and we need to build
those skills.
So I'm not like advocating weshouldn't do that, we need to do
(15:05):
that.
But I think what we're talkingabout moving away from preparing
versus shaping.
What I'm talking about is isless about we should be skilled
in a lot of skills, right Causewe don't know which one we're
going to need, but also it's amuch deeper mindset around
removing the predictabilitywithin society or within systems
that often overpredict andundervalue the unique talents of
(15:26):
the people around them and inschools.
I mean, molly and I have done alot of work in schools, as you
know, JB schools are the bestoverpredicter of what young
people might do.
That looks like testing, itlooks like tracking based on
some nominal thing that theytook in eighth grade and now
they're on this track that'seither college-bound or all
these other things.
And in reality, we need to moveaway from that and instead one
(15:51):
is help students realize theyactually can shape their future
and we can also say move away.
You know, if you just get thisone job in coding, you're going
to be fine for life.
Well, reality is ChachiBT isnow coding.
So how do we get people at anyage and degree realizing that we
are always going to be lifelonglearners?
And I think when we think aboutshaping, shaping is also about
(16:18):
sensing, looking at trends,seeing what's happening next and
saying how do I learn aboutthose things?
What are my questions?
Who do I need to learn with sothat I might start building and
start researching and makingthat happen?
That is what people who haveprobably been the biggest
entrepreneurs in the world knowhow to do really well, and I
think we should all have accessto do that.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
It sounds like there is like a true process to being
a futurist.
I'm curious like what are somepractical tips that listeners
could take home to start shapingthe future?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And I will say I'm not the developer, I'm just like
quoting some of the stuff thatI would say Institute of the
Future, for example, talks about, about this, which is signal
gathering.
Um, and so signal gathering isa moment to kind of your.
Your sense is like, um, you'rebeing intuitive about the thing
that's happening around you.
Signal gathering looks likelooking at headlines in the
world and asking like, oh,that's interesting.
(17:12):
I didn't know what that wasabout, whether it's on climate
change, it could be on guncontrol, your job, and many
times like I will have a journaland I do a lot of sensing I
read headlines, I read articles,and those signals are not
necessarily like facts of thisis how the world is changing,
but they are indicators ofpossible new driving forces that
(17:33):
we want to pay attention to aworld, the world is going, and
so I think some of the bestfuturists capture signals and we
start seeing like, okay, ifthat's a signal, then what do I
need to do to?
If it's climate change, forexample, we're getting a lot of
signals from the planet aboutthe climate.
Yeah, and you know best, thebest bio futurists, the best
(17:55):
climate futurists, are activelythinking about how do I actually
shape those signals differently.
Yeah, right, and that comesfrom data, but it also can come
from human stories.
Some of the best signals is notjust the quantitative data but
like how people feel in themoment and what that looks like.
And we can start all gatheringthose.
And then I will quote theamazing Ahmed Best, who you
(18:17):
should all get on your podcastvery soon.
He is an Afro futurist.
He and Lonnie Abbey Brooks,who's at CSU Eastway, east Bay,
have what they call Afro rhythmsfrom the future, and you know,
I would say that Ahmed reallytalks about being the signal
himself.
And what does that look like?
And so, again, that speaks toagency that we're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I feel like I see signals also in pop culture or
in like music or art, and all ofa sudden you start to see all
these like patterns showing up.
I love the idea of having ajournal to be able to write some
of those things down, causesometimes I think that signals
aren't always in the headlines,but it's what's in between the
headlines.
(18:59):
It's almost like the nonverbalcommunication in a meeting or a
room and you're like people aresaying this, but we're all
feeling this, so what's?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
the disconnect there.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
And so, uh, and sometimes you, I think, with a
signal, you're you're stillfiguring out what the signal is
like, and so I, I like, I reallyliked the idea of like that,
that journaling and some of thepractices of doing scans out in
some organizations like gathersignals, and then like have week
, you know monthly meetings,like let's put them all up on
the board and say what does thissuggest either about where our
(19:31):
business is going where thecommunity is going?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Those are just good practices.
Business is going where thecommunity is going, those are
just good practices.
Again, moving from a stance ofreaction to like oh, how do we
get, to the stance of shaping,like okay, let's pay attention
to what's around us and I think,like the, you know the best
features, best leaders arereally good at that, are really
good at sensing, like where theworld is going and like how
(19:54):
might I make sense of that inthe world?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So speaking of which, um, what is the future that
you're sensing and that you'reimagining?
What is the future that you'retrying to shape?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
You know we're I've been talking about this a lot
with folks and a lot of peopleare sensing it is that we're in
this like funny inflectionmoment with like AI and stuff.
We're like just behind.
We're like, do y'all remember?
I don't, I mean, we have someolder folks on this call.
I had a Blackberry, do y'allremember?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
those.
I did not have one, but I knowwhat one is.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
So I had one for like a year or two, right, I had one
and it was like a couple yearsbefore you know the iPhone.
I think AI is in that mode rightnow, yeah, Like we're in the
light crackberry mode, Likewe're all creating our bots
we're still early stage, it's acouple of years and then
something we I imagine in thenext couple of years it's going
to be like blow the stuff up.
(20:47):
All of a sudden we have the appstores and everything else,
like we saw with the iPhone, andso, with respect to technology,
I think we're heading in thatdirection and I think that looks
like a lot more capacity forindividual people to create a
lot of things, whether that'schanging the way we create art,
you know, writing, you name it.
That capacity to augment ourhuman productability, you name
(21:11):
it is really happening.
I'll be curious to see you knowwhat happens in 10 years.
Jane McGonigal is at Stanford,talks that we think in 10 years
and like twenties, thirties,forties, and so thinking about
what the next 10 years mightlook like.
I mean there's a lot of futuresthere.
In my most preferred future,you know, is that people have
(21:33):
access to these tools in everycommunity, and I think, if I'm
being very nostalgic and verypositive cause I can go super
dystopian sometimes is, I think,the my biggest hope for the
future is actually have morefaith in each other, to be good
people to each other.
(21:53):
I mean, I think that's actually, I mean that's a very like
simple answer, but like I feellike we've kind of lost faith in
humans to trust each other andwe're we're we're connected, as
my boss says, like we want tofind commonality across across
difference, not createdifference over difference, and
I feel like we're kind of in thelatter right now.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I feel like we've hit hit peak distrust.
Yeah, I feel.
I feel like we're kind of inthe latter.
Right now I feel like we've hitpeak distrust.
Yeah, I feel.
I feel like we've passed thatpoint and like we're getting
past that point and we'rebecause we're tired of it.
We we understand the damagethat it does.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
That's right.
I feel that and I I mean, andthat's not like a very like I
would say like scientific orresearch-based, but I just and
that's not like a very like Iwould say like scientific or
research-based, but I just feellike that's it Like how do we
get more trust in science?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
and each other and everything and systems Like we
(23:05):
got to from time to time.
What role does failure play inall of this?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You know, I think, from a learning perspective.
This is where I think,especially in the moment you
asked where we are now, Iactually think we got to make a
lot of mistakes, whether it's torebuild trust, whether it's to
chance to build society, becauseI don't think we're going to
get back to this vision that wejust talked about, jb, unless we
take some radical risks thatallow to do that, and that we I
(23:32):
mean, let's be honest, that isgoing to involve some mistakes,
and mistakes I'll be reallyclear are different than in our
book around failure Mistakes islike I burnt my chicken dinner,
which is going to happen all thetime, yeah.
Or overcooked it in the airfryer.
Um, you know, a failure iscommunal.
A failure has some emotionalwealth to it, it's in connection
(23:54):
or response to someone else, ithas some accountability to it
that feels meaningful, and so Iwant to distinguish those things
, because we make mistakes allthe time that actually don't
have, like, you know, chicken,right right.
But failures have consequences,whether it's for you personally,
just for your identity, or foryour community.
(24:15):
I think maybe this is thepathway there.
I don't even know, but likeacknowledging that.
If we know that to be true,then the question I always ask
when we're doing this work withpeople is if we know that
failure is in community and inresponse to someone, or in
community, then what is theresponsibility of that community
to hold people through failure?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Now, the reason that we're moving over to failure is
because you wrote this amazingbook a few years ago, called my
Favorite Failure.
Why did you write the book?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
one just to demystify the learning process of like
this question.
And the other thing we wantedto do in the book is also like
get beyond the slogans that feeloften trite, which is like fail
forward, you know, all thesethings that feel like that was
real for me, because actual,real failure is like a full body
you're sweating, it's like yourstomach.
(25:07):
It's awful, it's awful and weall have been there, and so we
wanted to like show differentstories of what those look like,
we can actually realize thatthey have helped us, they've
(25:29):
shaped us, they've shifted us,and so that's partly why we
wanted to do it is so that wecould really just, like you know
, understand failure a bit more.
So we collected, I think, over100 different stories of people
writing their most favoritefailure from all different
things, and then we like codedthose into different kind of
(25:50):
facets or fabrics of like thisaspect of failure, because
failure is again, it's a nuancedthing.
It's not like I failed, there'sa lot of like nuance around it,
around expectation, and so wereally wanted to kind of reframe
failure right From somethingthat like.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And so we really wanted to kind of reframe
failure right From somethingthat, like this, really sucks to
.
You know, this is somethingthat more individual and
failures being more communal, Ithink one of the things that I
feel like, particularly when youare innovating or designing or
learning or changing, I thinkall those words can be
interchanged with one anotherbut to do that, you are going to
(26:44):
have setbacks.
They could be mistakes, theycould be failures.
That is going to happen.
Setbacks, um, and they could bemistakes, they could be
failures, but that is going tohappen, and I don't believe you
can do any of those things,whether that is change, innovate
, learn or design on your own.
Yeah, because I think it's very.
I think the one of the greatestarts of failure is how you
(27:06):
recover Absolutely and like theart of recovery, um, and your
response afterwards.
I think that's what makes orbreaks leaders, teams,
communities like that.
That's.
That's actually the mostimportant moment when you are
collaborating with anybody.
Yeah, do you have any pro tipson how folks might recover from
(27:28):
failures together?
I?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
mean one is recognizing that that happened.
I mean, I think that's thefirst thing is like there has to
be some awareness, becauseusually and I'll give you an
example from the book but Iremember in one of the books we
had this beautiful person whowrote a story about she was
giving her first publicpresentation.
She's an emerging bilingualperson and she's a researcher,
and so she stood up on stage togive her talk.
(27:51):
And she showed up and she hadher note cards, you know,
because it was her first talk,you know she's ever done in
front of people.
You know, in the book she gotup on stage and the chapter is
called freeze.
So she got up on stage andfroze literally just stood still
.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I've done that, we've all done that, we've all done
that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And the most beautiful thing in the story is
like during that moment, someonestarted clapping and I think
what you're asking is like whois recovering?
Am I recovering or are werecovering?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And I think that's what we're talking about.
Recovery is like.
Can we create moments where,like when the student and we've
all seen the students and you'relike, oh, that's cringy, Like,
oh, it's like we all can feel it.
When someone's like doing that,you know, you can, we all know
what it feels like, and yet weall sit there and hope they get
through it, because they werelike, ooh, let's get away from
it Totally.
(28:41):
But like, what would it looklike if we actually can like
step into that space?
Hey, actually can like stepinto that space.
Hey, like I got you, we can dothis, because we've all had
those.
We've all had those moments.
Let's be honest, like we're allthere and I think that's the,
that's part of the recovery.
I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I love that.
I, I, I did, I did do a stintat Ted and being at the Ted
conference.
Those talks are so polished andpackaged when we, when we
receive them, but being in theaudience, the number of speakers
who do freeze actually on stageand the response of the crowd
(29:16):
being to clap and encourage, Ithink, uh, I thought that that
was one of the most wonderfulparts of the TED community.
But I, but I, I love thinkingabout that communal response to,
to recovery.
I also just think, like in theworld of work, thinking you know
, when things do not go right,how do you, like you do, have to
lean a little bit intovulnerability and name hey, this
(29:38):
did not go right and you mighthave to apologize, you might
have to pivot, you might have torewrite your scope of work,
like all the different thingsthat have to happen afterwards,
that require heavy lifting, andif you do it by yourself, it's
it's soul sucking.
But if you do it together,you're able to sort of like dust
each other's shoulders off.
(29:59):
You might even be able tochuckle about it more quickly so
that you can navigate the nextcomplex challenge together.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Well, I think I'll dig into that that one too,
because I think part of anotherchapter in the book is called
expectation.
I think oftentimes when we deemsomething a failure, we deem it
because it didn't meet theexpectation we had of the thing
and so, because it was not whatwe thought, it's not right or
wrong.
If it was wrong, then it's afailure, and if it went right
(30:27):
it's not right or wrong.
If it was wrong, then it's afailure, and if it went right
it's a success.
That's how we take in binaryterms.
So, all the manage.
But as I'm looking at mybeautiful people on this call
right now, like all of us aredesigners, knowing that actually
the need finding aftermath iswhere the learning is right.
It is after where you get morecurious about the question I'd
be asking I didn't go right.
How do we be more curious aboutthe question I'd be asking I
(30:48):
didn't go right?
It's like, how do we be morecurious and actually remove the
expectation of the outcome?
Because the the outcome isactually where the learning is.
Yeah, that's where the nextneed finding is.
That's where the thing is.
It's going to teach yousomething right.
And again, I think we move intothese binary places so quickly
because of the expectation wehave upon it or because the
response from someone else, likeyou were supposed to do this.
(31:10):
What does this have to teach us?
I mean to quote the amazing TedLasso we all know him like.
What does this moment, what doI need to learn here?
That's the question.
You know that I think failurecan teach us either about
perceived expectations that wehave about ourselves and others,
or receive expectations aboutwhat success is supposed to mean
(31:31):
.
And again, innovation, as weknow sometimes is you actually
find the innovation because itwent horribly in the opposite
direction?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Right, and that's where the actual new work is.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So is everybody allowed to fail equally?
Because I think that thecelebration of failure can feel
very gendered, in particular.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, I don't.
I mean, I'm going to.
I don't believe that women orpeople of color have the same
opportunity to fail AbsolutelyIn the in the world of work.
I sometimes don't know how Ifeel about the language of
failure in the world of work.
I sometimes don't know how Ifeel about the language of
failure in the world of workbecause it doesn't feel like an
equitable opportunity foreveryone to have, and I don't
(32:15):
know what the answer is to this.
I'll be super honest, but I doknow that I will switch language
from failure to be like growthor, you know, ability to learn
or setback, because, no matterwhat, in the world of work we
don't make the right choicesregularly, and so you.
(32:35):
So you have to have that chanceto learn quickly and adapt and
pivot which fit, which you know.
Mistakes and failures give youthat opportunity to do If you
have that community, communitybehind you that is going to let
you do that, and I think womenand people of color just don't
seem to have that sameopportunity.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Well, and I think you're all saying about like
putting a hundred percent agree,and you know we think about
that's why I think part of thecolon, because we're talking
about setbacks that we feelright, that actually we impose
upon ourself.
What you're talking about isfailures that are thrust upon us
based on perceived notions ofsystem, race, identity,
experience, right, those arevery different and the reason
why I think we named the book myFavorite Failure right is
(33:15):
because it's mine, it's not whatsomeone else told me, it's a
failure, and I think those arereally important for us to
distinguish from.
Because, exactly right, exactlyright, we see systems and work
and in schools, everyorganization right, where you
know, folks of color women arebasically a put on a path to fit
, or they're perceived asfailure versus like because of
(33:36):
the system that's around them,versus like they just you know
they actually did something waslike provocative and learning
and innovative.
That, again, the expectationthat was like it was supposed to
be, how they, someone else,thought it was going to be,
versus, again, the curiosity ofwhat might have happened, what
could have happened.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
How do I, as a cis white male manager, help create
safe spaces for people to failwho don't look like me?
Speaker 3 (34:02):
When I was working at Hightech High, our founder,
larry Rosenstock, was probablyone of the best leaders who
embraced failure.
He always said yes to people.
He said, you know, partlybecause he wanted people to own
something.
And the thing that he alwaysdid which you know time and time
again is that just because youfail doesn't mean you're done,
(34:24):
doesn't mean even for youngpeople who did something pretty
grievous, they could still comeback.
You know, we didn't have zerotolerance for that reason,
because these are kids, theymake mistakes, and so part of
that piece I would ask is likethinking about, you know, three
questions.
It's literally on my post-itright now, as I manage people is
like do you need help right now?
Do you need to be held or doyou need to be heard?
(34:46):
That is our job as leaders andyou know and your role is like
what do I need to help thisperson?
And sometimes it's just to beheard, and sometimes, obviously,
the biggest thing is how canyou serve as an advocate?
How can you help them in yourrole to be an advocate to you
know on to break down that Iwould say the perceived
(35:07):
expectations that Molly justtalked about, right,
particularly for folks, andactually open that box up a
little bit and say well, why arewe asking this question?
Are you perceiving this as afailure because of race?
We have to be brave enough toask those questions, and I think
particularly in your identityand role that's definitely part
of it is how might we stand asadvocates and allies in that way
(35:28):
?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I love that held, heard and helped.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Laura, you're amazing .
I think that the ability toboth balance failing and futures
are everyday mindsets andpractices that folks need in the
world today, and it's so niceto hear it from your deep
expertise from the D School atStanford and your real expertise
(35:58):
in the front lines andclassrooms and workplaces across
the planet.
You're dazzling, thank you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I'm wondering how can peoplekeep up with you or connect to
your work?
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Oh, great question.
I'm the worst in social media.
Let me be honest with you, likeI'm on LinkedIn you know, find
me on LinkedIn, that's easy.
Send me a chat.
You know I don't post a lot.
I repost with no comment.
You'll see that, so don'texpect that Fair enough, but I
love to repost.
But yeah, obviously LinkedIn isalso great.
(36:32):
This has been such a joy andjust really really fun.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Thanks, Thank you, laura, and that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you liked this episode,share it with somebody else and
drop us a rating and reviewwhile you're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
(37:01):
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
And you got your blankets and I'm going to keep
rocking so that you stay warmand not go home and go cold.
This is Unserious.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Preparing for the future doesn't make a lot of
sense at a time when theunknowns feel like they
outnumber the knowns.
Nowadays, we encourage ouryoung people to be quick on
their feet and have transferableskills.
But what if, instead of waitingfor the future to happen, we
could take an active role indesigning it?
What would it take to developthe mindset, imagination and
(00:41):
skills to shape futures that areequitable, creative and
sustainable?
I'm Molly McMahon, joined by JBSkelton, and we're here with
Laura McBain, managing Directorof the Stanford D School and an
educator on the Futurist Mindset.
She is the author of the bookmy Favorite Failure how Setbacks
(01:03):
Can Lead to Learning and Growth.
She is an adventurer, camper,stand-up paddler who we've
caught somewhere between Croatiaand Guyana today.
Thank you for joining us, laura.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you, so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It's great to have you.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
So, laura, I'm going to jump right on in.
You have written and taught onthe topic of futuring in the
context of design and educationand inclusion, so I'm curious
what does futuring mean to you?
Is it a real word?
And verb?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I like it's a word I mean.
Interesting enough, I don't usethe word futuring.
I think that's maybe thestarting thing is.
I mean, you can, I guess, usethat as a word, verb adjective,
I don't know, like Googling, Idon't know Google, they're all
doing that, but yeah, I don'tknow, you don't say, let's go
featuring today.
Let's go featuring.
(01:56):
It's like you know, foraging,featuring truffles.
You know a lot.
I mean, in all seriousness,like I do spend a lot of time
helping people unlock theirimagination, and so you know,
and the work that I do whetherit's nonprofit work, for-profit
education, you name it it'sreally helping people.
One and then number two, likehow my they might shape more
(02:19):
preferable futures, because Ithink the thing of futuring is
actually, when we say futures,there's actually more than one
possible future.
That is the reality.
There is wildcard futures,preferable futures, possible
futures, plausible futures, andso when we work with people,
part of the crux of it is likereally three basic questions how
(02:39):
might the world change and why?
Right, how might we design moreequitable futures and how we
might really uncover needs inpossible futures.
And that's the human-centeredpiece of this.
Right, we know there'll beneeds in the future, and so, as
a human-centered designer, myjob in helping people think
about the future is not just toimagine it, but how might we
(03:01):
uncover and plan for and shapeand build the needs that we
might have in those possiblefutures, so that we're living in
a place where we're not alwaysreacting to the future, but in a
place where we actually canshape and really think about
building the agency of what thekind of world we want to build
(03:26):
do you think it's important tounlock imagination and have that
ability to think aboutequitable futures and different
types of futures?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Why is that an important skill in the world
today?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
There's so many things we can say.
I mean one.
You can look outside.
We've got climate change, we'vegot crazy elections, and the
world is moving really quicklyright Between like AI we call it
like the volatile, uncertain,complex, ambiguous future, and
so part of why it's reallyimportant is twofold is like the
world is happening to us aroundvery quickly, right, you know,
(03:56):
when we think about theevolution of time.
The iPhone came out in 2008.
Wow, the world looked radicallydifferent in 2018, didn't it?
That's 10 years, yep, and sopart of why I think we want
people to do that is to unlockthat imagination, but also so
that we can actually build adifferent world that actually
(04:18):
take into consideration themassive challenges that are
facing our planet.
And what we do know is that,like, how we've designed things
in the past has not worked formost people.
So how might we create moreliberatory futures where all
people are seen, all people arevalued and we actually all have
the capacity to thrive in whatwe think are these dynamic?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
futures.
In thinking about that, like Idon't think folks in the world,
often of work and maybe even inour personal lives, know how to
prepare for the future or how toembrace that type of mindset,
can you describe how you helpshift that mindset inside of
inside of people, teams, whatthat takes?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I mean there's so many different ways to start,
just like we started today.
We could call them creativeapproaches, but I think number
one it's actually helping peoplebuild empathy for the future.
That's number one.
So how might we think ofourselves as ancestors to the
future?
So one is like a much moredeeper sense of like if I
imagine my, my child's, child'schild, my descendant,
descendant's world.
(05:20):
My responsibility is to helpdesign a better world for that
person.
We all have a legacy in thatregard.
So there's a will right there.
Like who are we designing for?
Like that's always a question.
We all will have ancestors, wehave them and we all be
descendants, like that whole mix.
We have to get clear on that.
And then, when we think aboutthis capacity, like all of us
(05:41):
have had this possibility, whenyou think back to imagination
and we're all sitting here I'mknowing you know folks like you
all, molly and JB, pretty wellon the call Like we're all kind
of nerds, we all like sci-fi,anyone that's got wrapped into.
Like why we love Star Wars, whywe love Hunger Games, why we
love all these like imaginativeworlds, is because they did
(06:02):
build a different world thanexists around here worlds is
because they build a differentworld than exists around here,
and so our job is helping peopleactually recover, if you will,
the imagination that they'vealways had.
And so we start doing thatthrough giving people things to
build, just like you do indesign, like whether it's a
prototype, an image of what'spossible, and we can use
(06:23):
methodologies like a making, wecan build ancestor pictures, we
can build artifacts from thefuture all of these different
modalities to get people tothink how do I not just imagine
what that world might be, buthow could I start building
toward it?
So, but I think it alwaysstarts with, like, what kind of
world you want to build and forwhom?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I love it.
Well, it's almost even as yousay that I'm like it's a little
bit also like it's that mix ofimagination and backwards
planning from like an outcomeslens.
There's something really coolabout that.
I love that language of likerecovering your imagination,
because we do um like we're not.
I was just was thinking about,like my 10 year old self and how
(07:03):
someone asked me, like whatwere you like when you were 10
years old?
And I was like I was superimaginative.
Yeah, um, like I played hardand I played a lot of pretend
games, which is world building,and I was imagining different
futures for myself.
I do not do that now.
I'm like caught in, like, uh,I'm caught in anxious loops of
thinking um more more fear-basedthan possibility-based.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
I mean, I don't know where I saw this, but I was.
I was seeing a parentreflecting on watching their
child and the parent was like Iwant to, I want to draw, but I I
just look at a blank piece ofpaper and I can't figure out
what to draw.
And a nine-year-old neverthinks about what to draw, they
(07:48):
just draw.
It's really amazing to watchjust how those growing minds are
so connected to creativity.
We're all based here in SiliconValley and we very smugly think
we own the future.
And, as Molly noted, you'rejust back from Croatia.
You're headed to Guyana.
Your bags are packed therebehind you.
(08:09):
In your estimation, how much ofthe future is going to be
driven by creativity outside ofour familiar worlds?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I mean this is a really important question, right
?
I think there's a Fred Pollack,you know, who kind of coined
the futures game, asked acritical question, which is two
questions.
One is like how do you feelabout the future?
Are you optimistic orpessimistic?
And then your question, jb, iswho will shape the future?
And I think you know the workthat I do is, you know, really
around, how do we give everyonethe capacity to shape it,
(08:39):
whether that's throughimagination, through trend
casting, and I think we all sitin a world like the world is
going to be run by an Elon Musk,right, or it's going to be a
Bill Gates, you know, we alsohave people like Greta Thunberg,
right, who have been activelyshaping the future for herself,
people like Octavia Butler, whohave imagined different worlds,
and so I think that, like, yourquestion is who's going to do it
(09:01):
?
I actually don't think it's who.
It's like, it is us, yeah, it'sus, it's actually us.
We are the people we're lookingfor.
And I think I think a lot ofthis stuff when we think about
futures and futures again has along history, you know comes
from people like Octavia Butler.
It comes from, you know, theRand corporation and government
stuff.
So it has been out there in theworld and I think for many
(09:22):
people you know whether you'reliving in this area or they're
living in Guyana or any otherplace on the country like our
capacity to shape the future.
Everyone has that right,everybody does, and so how do we
give not only that agency, thatsense of fulfillment and giving
people some of the tools to doit?
You know, so that we're notgoing to be run by.
You know the muscles of theworld, but all of us have the
(09:45):
capacity in our own communitiesof what that looks like and that
looks like to them.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
We like to get started with warmups and believe
in creative warmups, and theone that we do on our show is
called Hire, fire Boss.
Okay, the task is reimaginingthe future of sound, and let's
put it in design language howmight we reimagine the future of
sound?
I'm in, and so we have a listof candidates.
(10:19):
You are going to have to hireone, fire one, and select one to
be your boss.
Okay, and those candidates forthis task of reimagining the
future of sound are some of ourfavorite rockers.
So we have got Jon Bon Jovi,bryan Adams that is right and
(10:43):
Seal.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
And I say this because Lauren and I did just go
to a Seal concert together.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
So let's talk about it.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Okay Interesting I mean interesting enough that I
remember you and I tried to gettickets to jump on Jovi.
Um, I think a while back wejust didn't happen.
I think COVID happened and wedidn't get to go.
Um, these are tough choices,let's be honest.
These are really hard choicesbecause each one of them are
still actually employed, soevery single one of them still
(11:16):
have a job, so they've neverbeen fired.
Let's be honest, that's right,that's right.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
They're on top of craft.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
So I would say, the person that I would fire we say
Brian Adams.
Is that what we're saying?
We're saying Brian Adams Okay,I think, I think I would fire
him.
He's out, he's out.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
He's out.
Okay, I mean artists, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
But I would say regularly in growing up every
song yeah, yeah, he hasn't had alot of bangers in the most
recent years, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So I think that, um, I think he's out Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Okay, and then who would you?
Who would you hire and whowould you have as a boss?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Oh, well, um, I definitely would hire.
I think it's Bon Jovi wouldhire, partly because, I mean,
here's the thing this guy isstill rocking, he is like and
he's still doing denim.
Let's be honest, I don't thinkhe shifted.
Look he still looks good.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
He does look good and I believe I did it look he
still looks good.
He does look good and I believeI read something on apple news
that he just saved somebody offa bridge in nashville in the
middle of um filming a uh video.
He did.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Someone was gonna jump off and he like saved them
from like yeah, like mere death,yeah.
So I think he's, he's solid,you know for sure.
And then I think, obviously, Iwould hire.
I think the boss is still, andI'll tell you why why, why is
like Molly and I were at aconcert and this was recent.
Like I went to this concertlike 20 years ago, but no, it
(12:47):
was actually like last spring.
Like it was like, yeah, buthere's what I love about him Not
only did he like bring all thesongs back, he went into the
audience and then you know what.
You know, what a good leaderdoes Is he looked around the
audiences.
You know you all are cold.
I'm not gonna take myintermission, I'm gonna keep
rolling because I know you allare cold in this room and you
(13:10):
got your blankets and I'm gonnakeep rocking so that you stay
warm and not go home and go cold.
So that is what a good bossdoes.
He's like saw what everyoneneeded and he's like I'm going
to push through because you allare cold and I'm going to finish
the show.
So he's the boss.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, and everybody flocked around him.
They did.
Everyone wanted a little pieceof seal, just a little touch.
Jb, how about you?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
How did Brian Adams make it onto this list?
It's not hard to fire him.
I was just looking at hisalbums and the first thing that
pops up is Reggae Christmas,reggae Christmas.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Oh no, but you got like the Summer of 69.
No.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
I know you got Summer of 69.
You got Forever.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Young.
No, I know You've got Summer of69.
You've got Forever Young, theMusketeers song that broke all
the girls' hearts.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I just, I just like the first thing on Google.
The first thing on Google aBrian.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Adams song was Reggae Christmas.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I'm just, I'm just saying, that's the search result
yeah, so I was a Boy Scout.
Our motto is to be prepared,and in your work and writing you
advocate for shifting frompreparing for the future to
(14:30):
shaping the future.
Can you describe the mindsetshift that people have to take?
How do I become a futurist?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Well, I mean, that's a really good one, because I
think all of us there are thingswe can learn.
So let's, like you know, let'sdive into that.
So, like you know, I work witha lot of you know, educators and
companies and there are likecritical, I would say, skills we
need, like, I would say,literacy and numeracy, right,
but I think they're fundamentalrights.
We all should have thatcapacity and we need to build
those skills.
So I'm not like advocating weshouldn't do that, we need to do
(15:05):
that.
But I think what we're talkingabout moving away from preparing
versus shaping.
What I'm talking about is isless about we should be skilled
in a lot of skills, right Causewe don't know which one we're
going to need, but also it's amuch deeper mindset around
removing the predictabilitywithin society or within systems
that often overpredict andundervalue the unique talents of
(15:26):
the people around them and inschools.
I mean, molly and I have done alot of work in schools, as you
know, JB schools are the bestoverpredicter of what young
people might do.
That looks like testing, itlooks like tracking based on
some nominal thing that theytook in eighth grade and now
they're on this track that'seither college-bound or all
these other things.
And in reality, we need to moveaway from that and instead one
(15:51):
is help students realize theyactually can shape their future
and we can also say move away.
You know, if you just get thisone job in coding, you're going
to be fine for life.
Well, reality is ChachiBT isnow coding.
So how do we get people at anyage and degree realizing that we
are always going to be lifelonglearners?
And I think when we think aboutshaping, shaping is also about
(16:18):
sensing, looking at trends,seeing what's happening next and
saying how do I learn aboutthose things?
What are my questions?
Who do I need to learn with sothat I might start building and
start researching and makingthat happen?
That is what people who haveprobably been the biggest
entrepreneurs in the world knowhow to do really well, and I
think we should all have accessto do that.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
It sounds like there is like a true process to being
a futurist.
I'm curious like what are somepractical tips that listeners
could take home to start shapingthe future?
Speaker 3 (16:50):
And I will say I'm not the developer, I'm just like
quoting some of the stuff thatI would say Institute of the
Future, for example, talks about, about this, which is signal
gathering.
Um, and so signal gathering isa moment to kind of your.
Your sense is like, um, you'rebeing intuitive about the thing
that's happening around you.
Signal gathering looks likelooking at headlines in the
world and asking like, oh,that's interesting.
(17:12):
I didn't know what that wasabout, whether it's on climate
change, it could be on guncontrol, your job, and many
times like I will have a journaland I do a lot of sensing I
read headlines, I read articles,and those signals are not
necessarily like facts of thisis how the world is changing,
but they are indicators ofpossible new driving forces that
(17:33):
we want to pay attention to aworld, the world is going, and
so I think some of the bestfuturists capture signals and we
start seeing like, okay, ifthat's a signal, then what do I
need to do to?
If it's climate change, forexample, we're getting a lot of
signals from the planet aboutthe climate.
Yeah, and you know best, thebest bio futurists, the best
(17:55):
climate futurists, are activelythinking about how do I actually
shape those signals differently.
Yeah, right, and that comesfrom data, but it also can come
from human stories.
Some of the best signals is notjust the quantitative data but
like how people feel in themoment and what that looks like.
And we can start all gatheringthose.
And then I will quote theamazing Ahmed Best, who you
(18:17):
should all get on your podcastvery soon.
He is an Afro futurist.
He and Lonnie Abbey Brooks,who's at CSU Eastway, east Bay,
have what they call Afro rhythmsfrom the future, and you know,
I would say that Ahmed reallytalks about being the signal
himself.
And what does that look like?
And so, again, that speaks toagency that we're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I feel like I see signals also in pop culture or
in like music or art, and all ofa sudden you start to see all
these like patterns showing up.
I love the idea of having ajournal to be able to write some
of those things down, causesometimes I think that signals
aren't always in the headlines,but it's what's in between the
headlines.
(18:59):
It's almost like the nonverbalcommunication in a meeting or a
room and you're like people aresaying this, but we're all
feeling this, so what's?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
the disconnect there.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
And so, uh, and sometimes you, I think, with a
signal, you're you're stillfiguring out what the signal is
like, and so I, I like, I reallyliked the idea of like that,
that journaling and some of thepractices of doing scans out in
some organizations like gathersignals, and then like have week
, you know monthly meetings,like let's put them all up on
the board and say what does thissuggest either about where our
(19:31):
business is going where thecommunity is going?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Those are just good practices.
Business is going where thecommunity is going, those are
just good practices.
Again, moving from a stance ofreaction to like oh, how do we
get, to the stance of shaping,like okay, let's pay attention
to what's around us and I think,like the, you know the best
features, best leaders arereally good at that, are really
good at sensing, like where theworld is going and like how
(19:54):
might I make sense of that inthe world?
Speaker 1 (19:57):
So speaking of which, um, what is the future that
you're sensing and that you'reimagining?
What is the future that you'retrying to shape?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
You know we're I've been talking about this a lot
with folks and a lot of peopleare sensing it is that we're in
this like funny inflectionmoment with like AI and stuff.
We're like just behind.
We're like, do y'all remember?
I don't, I mean, we have someolder folks on this call.
I had a Blackberry, do y'allremember?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
those.
I did not have one, but I knowwhat one is.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
So I had one for like a year or two, right, I had one
and it was like a couple yearsbefore you know the iPhone.
I think AI is in that mode rightnow, yeah, Like we're in the
light crackberry mode, Likewe're all creating our bots
we're still early stage, it's acouple of years and then
something we I imagine in thenext couple of years it's going
to be like blow the stuff up.
(20:47):
All of a sudden we have the appstores and everything else,
like we saw with the iPhone, andso, with respect to technology,
I think we're heading in thatdirection and I think that looks
like a lot more capacity forindividual people to create a
lot of things, whether that'schanging the way we create art,
you know, writing, you name it.
That capacity to augment ourhuman productability, you name
(21:11):
it is really happening.
I'll be curious to see you knowwhat happens in 10 years.
Jane McGonigal is at Stanford,talks that we think in 10 years
and like twenties, thirties,forties, and so thinking about
what the next 10 years mightlook like.
I mean there's a lot of futuresthere.
In my most preferred future,you know, is that people have
(21:33):
access to these tools in everycommunity, and I think, if I'm
being very nostalgic and verypositive cause I can go super
dystopian sometimes is, I think,the my biggest hope for the
future is actually have morefaith in each other, to be good
people to each other.
(21:53):
I mean, I think that's actually, I mean that's a very like
simple answer, but like I feellike we've kind of lost faith in
humans to trust each other andwe're we're we're connected, as
my boss says, like we want tofind commonality across across
difference, not createdifference over difference, and
I feel like we're kind of in thelatter right now.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
I feel like we've hit hit peak distrust.
Yeah, I feel.
I feel like we're kind of inthe latter.
Right now I feel like we've hitpeak distrust.
Yeah, I feel.
I feel like we've passed thatpoint and like we're getting
past that point and we'rebecause we're tired of it.
We we understand the damagethat it does.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
That's right.
I feel that and I I mean, andthat's not like a very like I
would say like scientific orresearch-based, but I just and
that's not like a very like Iwould say like scientific or
research-based, but I just feellike that's it Like how do we
get more trust in science?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
and each other and everything and systems Like we
(23:05):
got to from time to time.
What role does failure play inall of this?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
You know, I think, from a learning perspective.
This is where I think,especially in the moment you
asked where we are now, Iactually think we got to make a
lot of mistakes, whether it's torebuild trust, whether it's to
chance to build society, becauseI don't think we're going to
get back to this vision that wejust talked about, jb, unless we
take some radical risks thatallow to do that, and that we I
(23:32):
mean, let's be honest, that isgoing to involve some mistakes,
and mistakes I'll be reallyclear are different than in our
book around failure Mistakes islike I burnt my chicken dinner,
which is going to happen all thetime, yeah.
Or overcooked it in the airfryer.
Um, you know, a failure iscommunal.
A failure has some emotionalwealth to it, it's in connection
(23:54):
or response to someone else, ithas some accountability to it
that feels meaningful, and so Iwant to distinguish those things
, because we make mistakes allthe time that actually don't
have, like, you know, chicken,right right.
But failures have consequences,whether it's for you personally,
just for your identity, or foryour community.
(24:15):
I think maybe this is thepathway there.
I don't even know, but likeacknowledging that.
If we know that to be true,then the question I always ask
when we're doing this work withpeople is if we know that
failure is in community and inresponse to someone, or in
community, then what is theresponsibility of that community
to hold people through failure?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Now, the reason that we're moving over to failure is
because you wrote this amazingbook a few years ago, called my
Favorite Failure.
Why did you write the book?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
one just to demystify the learning process of like
this question.
And the other thing we wantedto do in the book is also like
get beyond the slogans that feeloften trite, which is like fail
forward, you know, all thesethings that feel like that was
real for me, because actual,real failure is like a full body
you're sweating, it's like yourstomach.
(25:07):
It's awful, it's awful and weall have been there, and so we
wanted to like show differentstories of what those look like,
we can actually realize thatthey have helped us, they've
(25:29):
shaped us, they've shifted us,and so that's partly why we
wanted to do it is so that wecould really just, like you know
, understand failure a bit more.
So we collected, I think, over100 different stories of people
writing their most favoritefailure from all different
things, and then we like codedthose into different kind of
(25:50):
facets or fabrics of like thisaspect of failure, because
failure is again, it's a nuancedthing.
It's not like I failed, there'sa lot of like nuance around it,
around expectation, and so wereally wanted to kind of reframe
failure right From somethingthat like.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And so we really wanted to kind of reframe
failure right From somethingthat, like this, really sucks to
.
You know, this is somethingthat more individual and
failures being more communal, Ithink one of the things that I
feel like, particularly when youare innovating or designing or
learning or changing, I thinkall those words can be
interchanged with one anotherbut to do that, you are going to
(26:44):
have setbacks.
They could be mistakes, theycould be failures.
That is going to happen.
Setbacks, um, and they could bemistakes, they could be
failures, but that is going tohappen, and I don't believe you
can do any of those things,whether that is change, innovate
, learn or design on your own.
Yeah, because I think it's very.
I think the one of the greatestarts of failure is how you
(27:06):
recover Absolutely and like theart of recovery, um, and your
response afterwards.
I think that's what makes orbreaks leaders, teams,
communities like that.
That's.
That's actually the mostimportant moment when you are
collaborating with anybody.
Yeah, do you have any pro tipson how folks might recover from
(27:28):
failures together?
I?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
mean one is recognizing that that happened.
I mean, I think that's thefirst thing is like there has to
be some awareness, becauseusually and I'll give you an
example from the book but Iremember in one of the books we
had this beautiful person whowrote a story about she was
giving her first publicpresentation.
She's an emerging bilingualperson and she's a researcher,
and so she stood up on stage togive her talk.
(27:51):
And she showed up and she hadher note cards, you know,
because it was her first talk,you know she's ever done in
front of people.
You know, in the book she gotup on stage and the chapter is
called freeze.
So she got up on stage andfroze literally just stood still
.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I've done that, we've all done that, we've all done
that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And the most beautiful thing in the story is
like during that moment, someonestarted clapping and I think
what you're asking is like whois recovering?
Am I recovering or are werecovering?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And I think that's what we're talking about.
Recovery is like.
Can we create moments where,like when the student and we've
all seen the students and you'relike, oh, that's cringy, Like,
oh, it's like we all can feel it.
When someone's like doing that,you know, you can, we all know
what it feels like, and yet weall sit there and hope they get
through it, because they werelike, ooh, let's get away from
it Totally.
(28:41):
But like, what would it looklike if we actually can like
step into that space?
Hey, actually can like stepinto that space.
Hey, like I got you, we can dothis, because we've all had
those.
We've all had those moments.
Let's be honest, like we're allthere and I think that's the,
that's part of the recovery.
I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I love that.
I, I, I did, I did do a stintat Ted and being at the Ted
conference.
Those talks are so polished andpackaged when we, when we
receive them, but being in theaudience, the number of speakers
who do freeze actually on stageand the response of the crowd
(29:16):
being to clap and encourage, Ithink, uh, I thought that that
was one of the most wonderfulparts of the TED community.
But I, but I, I love thinkingabout that communal response to,
to recovery.
I also just think, like in theworld of work, thinking you know
, when things do not go right,how do you, like you do, have to
lean a little bit intovulnerability and name hey, this
(29:38):
did not go right and you mighthave to apologize, you might
have to pivot, you might have torewrite your scope of work,
like all the different thingsthat have to happen afterwards,
that require heavy lifting, andif you do it by yourself, it's
it's soul sucking.
But if you do it together,you're able to sort of like dust
each other's shoulders off.
(29:59):
You might even be able tochuckle about it more quickly so
that you can navigate the nextcomplex challenge together.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Well, I think I'll dig into that that one too,
because I think part of anotherchapter in the book is called
expectation.
I think oftentimes when we deemsomething a failure, we deem it
because it didn't meet theexpectation we had of the thing
and so, because it was not whatwe thought, it's not right or
wrong.
If it was wrong, then it's afailure, and if it went right
(30:27):
it's not right or wrong.
If it was wrong, then it's afailure, and if it went right
it's a success.
That's how we take in binaryterms.
So, all the manage.
But as I'm looking at mybeautiful people on this call
right now, like all of us aredesigners, knowing that actually
the need finding aftermath iswhere the learning is right.
It is after where you get morecurious about the question I'd
be asking I didn't go right.
How do we be more curious aboutthe question I'd be asking I
(30:48):
didn't go right?
It's like, how do we be morecurious and actually remove the
expectation of the outcome?
Because the the outcome isactually where the learning is.
Yeah, that's where the nextneed finding is.
That's where the thing is.
It's going to teach yousomething right.
And again, I think we move intothese binary places so quickly
because of the expectation wehave upon it or because the
response from someone else, likeyou were supposed to do this.
(31:10):
What does this have to teach us?
I mean to quote the amazing TedLasso we all know him like.
What does this moment, what doI need to learn here?
That's the question.
You know that I think failurecan teach us either about
perceived expectations that wehave about ourselves and others,
or receive expectations aboutwhat success is supposed to mean
(31:31):
.
And again, innovation, as weknow sometimes is you actually
find the innovation because itwent horribly in the opposite
direction?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Right, and that's where the actual new work is.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So is everybody allowed to fail equally?
Because I think that thecelebration of failure can feel
very gendered, in particular.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, I don't.
I mean, I'm going to.
I don't believe that women orpeople of color have the same
opportunity to fail AbsolutelyIn the in the world of work.
I sometimes don't know how Ifeel about the language of
failure in the world of work.
I sometimes don't know how Ifeel about the language of
failure in the world of workbecause it doesn't feel like an
equitable opportunity foreveryone to have, and I don't
(32:15):
know what the answer is to this.
I'll be super honest, but I doknow that I will switch language
from failure to be like growthor, you know, ability to learn
or setback, because, no matterwhat, in the world of work we
don't make the right choicesregularly, and so you.
(32:35):
So you have to have that chanceto learn quickly and adapt and
pivot which fit, which you know.
Mistakes and failures give youthat opportunity to do If you
have that community, communitybehind you that is going to let
you do that, and I think womenand people of color just don't
seem to have that sameopportunity.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Well, and I think you're all saying about like
putting a hundred percent agree,and you know we think about
that's why I think part of thecolon, because we're talking
about setbacks that we feelright, that actually we impose
upon ourself.
What you're talking about isfailures that are thrust upon us
based on perceived notions ofsystem, race, identity,
experience, right, those arevery different and the reason
why I think we named the book myFavorite Failure right is
(33:15):
because it's mine, it's not whatsomeone else told me, it's a
failure, and I think those arereally important for us to
distinguish from.
Because, exactly right, exactlyright, we see systems and work
and in schools, everyorganization right, where you
know, folks of color women arebasically a put on a path to fit
, or they're perceived asfailure versus like because of
(33:36):
the system that's around them,versus like they just you know
they actually did something waslike provocative and learning
and innovative.
That, again, the expectationthat was like it was supposed to
be, how they, someone else,thought it was going to be,
versus, again, the curiosity ofwhat might have happened, what
could have happened.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
How do I, as a cis white male manager, help create
safe spaces for people to failwho don't look like me?
Speaker 3 (34:02):
When I was working at Hightech High, our founder,
larry Rosenstock, was probablyone of the best leaders who
embraced failure.
He always said yes to people.
He said, you know, partlybecause he wanted people to own
something.
And the thing that he alwaysdid which you know time and time
again is that just because youfail doesn't mean you're done,
(34:24):
doesn't mean even for youngpeople who did something pretty
grievous, they could still comeback.
You know, we didn't have zerotolerance for that reason,
because these are kids, theymake mistakes, and so part of
that piece I would ask is likethinking about, you know, three
questions.
It's literally on my post-itright now, as I manage people is
like do you need help right now?
Do you need to be held or doyou need to be heard?
(34:46):
That is our job as leaders andyou know and your role is like
what do I need to help thisperson?
And sometimes it's just to beheard, and sometimes, obviously,
the biggest thing is how canyou serve as an advocate?
How can you help them in yourrole to be an advocate to you
know on to break down that Iwould say the perceived
(35:07):
expectations that Molly justtalked about, right,
particularly for folks, andactually open that box up a
little bit and say well, why arewe asking this question?
Are you perceiving this as afailure because of race?
We have to be brave enough toask those questions, and I think
particularly in your identityand role that's definitely part
of it is how might we stand asadvocates and allies in that way
(35:28):
?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I love that held, heard and helped.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Laura, you're amazing .
I think that the ability toboth balance failing and futures
are everyday mindsets andpractices that folks need in the
world today, and it's so niceto hear it from your deep
expertise from the D School atStanford and your real expertise
(35:58):
in the front lines andclassrooms and workplaces across
the planet.
You're dazzling, thank you.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I'm wondering how can peoplekeep up with you or connect to
your work?
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Oh, great question.
I'm the worst in social media.
Let me be honest with you, likeI'm on LinkedIn you know, find
me on LinkedIn, that's easy.
Send me a chat.
You know I don't post a lot.
I repost with no comment.
You'll see that, so don'texpect that Fair enough, but I
love to repost.
But yeah, obviously LinkedIn isalso great.
(36:32):
This has been such a joy andjust really really fun.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Thanks, Thank you, laura, and that's the show.
Thank you for being unseriouswith us.
If you like this episode, shareit with somebody else and drop
us a rating and review whileyou're at it.
If you liked this episode,share it with somebody else and
drop us a rating and reviewwhile you're at it.
If you have questions or ideasfor future episodes, drop us a
line at hello at unseriouscom.
You can also keep up with us onLinkedIn, on Instagram at
(37:01):
unseriousfun, or our website isunseriouscom, where you can find
all of our previous episodesand show notes.
At Unserious, we make work play.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
And you got your blankets and I'm going to keep
rocking so that you stay warmand not go home and go cold.
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