September 9, 2024 • 9 mins
As working professionals, meetings are so ubiquitous that we just think of them as something that happen to us. We check the weather to see if it's going to rain, the stocks to see what we gained or lost, and the calendar to see how many meetings we have. But we have much more control over meetings than we might think, as hosts and even as attendees.
In this episode, we put Upshots host Micah Vono into the hot seat as J.B. Skelton takes over to learn practical steps to redefining meeting culture and getting more out of a company's most expensive investment: time.
"If you're just white-knuckling your meetings, that comes at a big personal cost of your own energy, identity, and perception." - Micah Vono
PDF cheat sheet @ https://bit.ly/upshotsmvono
Connect with Micah on LinkedIn and see his work at micahvono.com and unserious.com.
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
This is Unserious, start using right away.
But we're switching things up abit today.
We're putting me in the hotseat, so welcome fellow
unserious person, jb Skelton.
Happy.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Monday Micah, I can't believe that you put
long-winded me in charge of theshort episodes.
But what are we exploring today?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, funny enough, we're going to talk about
meetings that matter.
Oh, who is this for?
Well, if you are working, youprobably have meetings, and I
think there's some sort oftelltale signs of when this
might be more helpful.
Okay, like if you're inmeetings that consistently go
over the time or they start late, yeah, a little bit of deja vu,
(00:58):
like wait, didn't we have wetalked about this before?
Yeah.
Or like that feeling when themeeting's over and you're just
exhausted, like that wasterrible, yeah.
And, of course, just projectsthat just aren't going anywhere.
They seem to be stuck.
We just talk about them.
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
My palms are actually sweating as you run through
these scenarios because I amhaving a physical reaction to
all of these scenarios A littleEminem mom spaghetti going on
here.
Yeah, really.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So why is this important?
I mean for all the things Ijust mentioned.
But, like, do you remember thatwork meme that I sent you on
Instagram a couple of weeks ago,and it was like they were
jokingly adding a Googlecalendar feature called cost of
meeting?
So it tallied everyone's salary.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh Jesus, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I mean, ultimately meetings are really
expensive.
That I mean ultimately meetingsare really expensive.
That's right they're expensiveto pay for.
There's also the opportunitycost of taking time away from
people actually doing the work.
But like more subtly, if you'rejust like white knuckling your
meetings, that comes at a bigpersonal cost of your own energy
, the way you show up and youridentity and your perception.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
What do you mean by your identity and perception?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, as the organizer of the meeting, it's
really on you to get to theoutcome of that.
We're going to get into that ina second.
But by appearing disorganizedor just sort of muddling through
the meeting or even justparticipating in the meeting
like you didn't call it You'rethere with everybody else.
You're not being viewed as aparticularly powerful or
organized or effective person.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, I can think of a few recent meetings where
there was no clear point at thebeginning and, as a participant,
I had to get things back ontrack.
So how do we make meetings workfrom the get-go?
So how do we make meetings workfrom?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
the get-go.
I like to break it up intothree stages.
So there's the before themeeting, during the meeting and
after the meeting.
The meeting doesn't start byhitting the new meeting button
in the calendar, yeah.
So you have to think throughwhat is the purpose, what's the
outcome of this meeting?
We're not just there to discussthings.
So at the end, do we need adecision made?
(03:03):
Do we need to generate a lot ofpossibilities, like a
brainstorming session?
Is it a?
They call them the come toJesus meetings.
So do you need to correctbehavior or like set a new
standard?
These are all very differentmeetings.
Not all meetings are the same.
So if you run them all the sameway, you're not only being
inefficient but honestly, it'skind of lazy.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So start with that goal and then work your way
backwards.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So no more round Robins If I never do a round
Robin again.
So if we need to accomplish Xgoal, then what kinds of
conversations or activities dowe need to have in the meeting
and then how much time are wegoing to let them take?
So the meeting has begun highlevel.
There's two big areas for me.
One is time management.
Have a visual timer I have donethis and people will start to
(03:50):
police themselves becausethey'll glance at it and be like
, ah, you know what, I'll justsave this for later because we
don't have time, and that'swonderful.
Or assign a timekeeper, like,just keep us on track.
Jb is a little long winded, youknow he is.
Everybody in that meeting has arole and we need to make sure
that you're actually hearingfrom everybody and that, again,
(04:11):
that starts well before themeeting.
For, especially forneurodiverse people, introverts,
anyone else who needs that timeto kind of think things through
.
Or even if you don't, theoutcome will only be better If
you have pre-reads agendas forpeople to know what to expect,
and they can, you know, keep iton the back burner.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Absolutely.
I am definitely a marinator.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
You know what else would be really great to send
out in advance is a brief.
Great to send out in advance isa brief.
Go check out JP's upshots onbriefs and, just to really hit
it home, end that meeting ontime, amen.
It probably begins withstarting it on time, but if I
don't end the meeting on time,as the organizer and I keep all
(04:53):
of you there extra minutes, thenwhen you show up to your next
meeting you're going to be late.
And now I've affected yourreputation because I have
presented you as the person whoshows up late might be a little
harried from being late, didn'tgive you any time to even be a
human being if you need water oruse the bathroom.
So it's really respectful tonot only end it on time but
(05:15):
ideally give people some time toget to their next thing.
Third area, after the meeting,restating the commitments.
And notice I didn't say actionitems, I didn't say next steps.
These are commitments that yougot in the meeting.
I said I will do that.
Yes, so if you've assigned anaction item to somebody that
wasn't there, you still have togo get the commitment, make sure
(05:37):
they can do it.
These are all the things thatwould come out later.
If you're white, knuckling it.
So does this work as well forone-on-ones as it does for team
meetings I mean, I thinkone-on-ones are the training
ground, the proving ground forhow you show up in other
meetings.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I think there's some of the infrastructure that you
build for the team meetings thatcan be evergreen for one-on-one
.
So your agendas, your takeawaysthat you can keep in shared
documents or on Slack so youdon't feel like you're starting
from scratch every time.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, you guys can both populate things throughout
the week.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, throughout the week, before you know.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
That's right.
Yeah, what are some pitfalls?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
that we should be aware of.
I mean again as the host of themeeting.
The hardest thing and yourbiggest responsibility is
getting to that desired outcomein the stated timeframe, and
that is not.
That is a skill that needs tobe developed with practice.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
It's not always possible, it just, it just isn't
.
And sometimes multiple meetingsare necessary and you just yeah
, but you should see it coming.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You say, hey, I can tell we're not.
We're going to go over it today, that's right.
So In the moment we can pivot,we're going to change the
outcome and we're going toschedule another one and take
that as data for yourself that Imiscalculated.
Next time, what do I dodifferently?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, and that's, and that also indicates a really
rich problem and lots of passionaround a problem.
So all good things.
What are some pro tips and whatare some ways that you can make
meetings really go to the nextlevel?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I was introduced to some ideas a while back that I
use as often as I can.
One check in and check out ofthe meeting Like, hey, how are
you doing today?
Are you able to be presenttoday?
If you have something burning,just leave.
Come back in a few minutes whenyou're ready Really sets the
tone for an effective meetingwhere everybody's present and at
the end of the meeting this isthe fun one check out and ask
(07:37):
people how satisfied they werewith the meeting.
Was this a good use of time and, if, is there something we
could do better for next time?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
in that spirit of continuous improvement, I love
that as managers and leaders.
When should we cancel a meetingwhen we think things are going
to fall short of theseexpectations we now have?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
of ourselves.
I mean, I'm kind of a hard ass,I would say every time.
But realistically, what we'retrying to do like is build a
culture of accountability aroundhow we manage this very
expensive investment in our time.
And if you're asking an hour ofmy time, you haven't stated
what the goal of it is or whatthe agenda is, then I don't know
(08:15):
if I can be valuable.
I might just decline it and askyou to reschedule like add me
again if you have those things.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, so morning of go for it, Uh, cancel those
meetings that that aren't readyto go.
Um, where can people find outmore about you and um, and
discover more about your work?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
and discover more about your work.
You can find me on Instagram atMicah Vono and at my website,
MicahVonocom.
In the show notes, I'll justroll through it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Do you want to do it?
In the show notes we'll have alink to the PDF cheat sheet that
accompanies every Upshotsepisode.
Just scroll down to the bigyellow button at the bottom of
the episode page.
Anyway, this podcast is broughtto you by Unserious Group.
We are a communications andstrategic consulting practice
that helps companies and leadersnavigate the rapidly changing
(09:09):
workplace by lowering the stakesand working more efficiently,
playfully and creatively, andwe're open for business.
So check us out at unseriouscomand let's be work friends.
At Unserious, we make work play.
This is Unserious, start using right away.
But we're switching things up abit today.
We're putting me in the hotseat, so welcome fellow
unserious person, jb Skelton.
Happy.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Monday Micah, I can't believe that you put
long-winded me in charge of theshort episodes.
But what are we exploring today?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, funny enough, we're going to talk about
meetings that matter.
Oh, who is this for?
Well, if you are working, youprobably have meetings, and I
think there's some sort oftelltale signs of when this
might be more helpful.
Okay, like if you're inmeetings that consistently go
over the time or they start late, yeah, a little bit of deja vu,
(00:58):
like wait, didn't we have wetalked about this before?
Yeah.
Or like that feeling when themeeting's over and you're just
exhausted, like that wasterrible, yeah.
And, of course, just projectsthat just aren't going anywhere.
They seem to be stuck.
We just talk about them.
Oh my God.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
My palms are actually sweating as you run through
these scenarios because I amhaving a physical reaction to
all of these scenarios A littleEminem mom spaghetti going on
here.
Yeah, really.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So why is this important?
I mean for all the things Ijust mentioned.
But, like, do you remember thatwork meme that I sent you on
Instagram a couple of weeks ago,and it was like they were
jokingly adding a Googlecalendar feature called cost of
meeting?
So it tallied everyone's salary.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Oh Jesus, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I mean, ultimately meetings are really
expensive.
That I mean ultimately meetingsare really expensive.
That's right they're expensiveto pay for.
There's also the opportunitycost of taking time away from
people actually doing the work.
But like more subtly, if you'rejust like white knuckling your
meetings, that comes at a bigpersonal cost of your own energy
, the way you show up and youridentity and your perception.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
What do you mean by your identity and perception?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, as the organizer of the meeting, it's
really on you to get to theoutcome of that.
We're going to get into that ina second.
But by appearing disorganizedor just sort of muddling through
the meeting or even justparticipating in the meeting
like you didn't call it You'rethere with everybody else.
You're not being viewed as aparticularly powerful or
organized or effective person.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, I can think of a few recent meetings where
there was no clear point at thebeginning and, as a participant,
I had to get things back ontrack.
So how do we make meetings workfrom the get-go?
So how do we make meetings workfrom?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
the get-go.
I like to break it up intothree stages.
So there's the before themeeting, during the meeting and
after the meeting.
The meeting doesn't start byhitting the new meeting button
in the calendar, yeah.
So you have to think throughwhat is the purpose, what's the
outcome of this meeting?
We're not just there to discussthings.
So at the end, do we need adecision made?
(03:03):
Do we need to generate a lot ofpossibilities, like a
brainstorming session?
Is it a?
They call them the come toJesus meetings.
So do you need to correctbehavior or like set a new
standard?
These are all very differentmeetings.
Not all meetings are the same.
So if you run them all the sameway, you're not only being
inefficient but honestly, it'skind of lazy.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So start with that goal and then work your way
backwards.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So no more round Robins If I never do a round
Robin again.
So if we need to accomplish Xgoal, then what kinds of
conversations or activities dowe need to have in the meeting
and then how much time are wegoing to let them take?
So the meeting has begun highlevel.
There's two big areas for me.
One is time management.
Have a visual timer I have donethis and people will start to
(03:50):
police themselves becausethey'll glance at it and be like
, ah, you know what, I'll justsave this for later because we
don't have time, and that'swonderful.
Or assign a timekeeper, like,just keep us on track.
Jb is a little long winded, youknow he is.
Everybody in that meeting has arole and we need to make sure
that you're actually hearingfrom everybody and that, again,
(04:11):
that starts well before themeeting.
For, especially forneurodiverse people, introverts,
anyone else who needs that timeto kind of think things through
.
Or even if you don't, theoutcome will only be better If
you have pre-reads agendas forpeople to know what to expect,
and they can, you know, keep iton the back burner.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Absolutely.
I am definitely a marinator.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
You know what else would be really great to send
out in advance is a brief.
Great to send out in advance isa brief.
Go check out JP's upshots onbriefs and, just to really hit
it home, end that meeting ontime, amen.
It probably begins withstarting it on time, but if I
don't end the meeting on time,as the organizer and I keep all
(04:53):
of you there extra minutes, thenwhen you show up to your next
meeting you're going to be late.
And now I've affected yourreputation because I have
presented you as the person whoshows up late might be a little
harried from being late, didn'tgive you any time to even be a
human being if you need water oruse the bathroom.
So it's really respectful tonot only end it on time but
(05:15):
ideally give people some time toget to their next thing.
Third area, after the meeting,restating the commitments.
And notice I didn't say actionitems, I didn't say next steps.
These are commitments that yougot in the meeting.
I said I will do that.
Yes, so if you've assigned anaction item to somebody that
wasn't there, you still have togo get the commitment, make sure
(05:37):
they can do it.
These are all the things thatwould come out later.
If you're white, knuckling it.
So does this work as well forone-on-ones as it does for team
meetings I mean, I thinkone-on-ones are the training
ground, the proving ground forhow you show up in other
meetings.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I think there's some of the infrastructure that you
build for the team meetings thatcan be evergreen for one-on-one
.
So your agendas, your takeawaysthat you can keep in shared
documents or on Slack so youdon't feel like you're starting
from scratch every time.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, you guys can both populate things throughout
the week.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, throughout the week, before you know.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
That's right.
Yeah, what are some pitfalls?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
that we should be aware of.
I mean again as the host of themeeting.
The hardest thing and yourbiggest responsibility is
getting to that desired outcomein the stated timeframe, and
that is not.
That is a skill that needs tobe developed with practice.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
It's not always possible, it just, it just isn't
.
And sometimes multiple meetingsare necessary and you just yeah
, but you should see it coming.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You say, hey, I can tell we're not.
We're going to go over it today, that's right.
So In the moment we can pivot,we're going to change the
outcome and we're going toschedule another one and take
that as data for yourself that Imiscalculated.
Next time, what do I dodifferently?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, and that's, and that also indicates a really
rich problem and lots of passionaround a problem.
So all good things.
What are some pro tips and whatare some ways that you can make
meetings really go to the nextlevel?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I was introduced to some ideas a while back that I
use as often as I can.
One check in and check out ofthe meeting Like, hey, how are
you doing today?
Are you able to be presenttoday?
If you have something burning,just leave.
Come back in a few minutes whenyou're ready Really sets the
tone for an effective meetingwhere everybody's present and at
the end of the meeting this isthe fun one check out and ask
(07:37):
people how satisfied they werewith the meeting.
Was this a good use of time and, if, is there something we
could do better for next time?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
in that spirit of continuous improvement, I love
that as managers and leaders.
When should we cancel a meetingwhen we think things are going
to fall short of theseexpectations we now have?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
of ourselves.
I mean, I'm kind of a hard ass,I would say every time.
But realistically, what we'retrying to do like is build a
culture of accountability aroundhow we manage this very
expensive investment in our time.
And if you're asking an hour ofmy time, you haven't stated
what the goal of it is or whatthe agenda is, then I don't know
(08:15):
if I can be valuable.
I might just decline it and askyou to reschedule like add me
again if you have those things.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, so morning of go for it, Uh, cancel those
meetings that that aren't readyto go.
Um, where can people find outmore about you and um, and
discover more about your work?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
and discover more about your work.
You can find me on Instagram atMicah Vono and at my website,
MicahVonocom.
In the show notes, I'll justroll through it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Do you want to do it?
In the show notes we'll have alink to the PDF cheat sheet that
accompanies every Upshotsepisode.
Just scroll down to the bigyellow button at the bottom of
the episode page.
Anyway, this podcast is broughtto you by Unserious Group.
We are a communications andstrategic consulting practice
that helps companies and leadersnavigate the rapidly changing
(09:09):
workplace by lowering the stakesand working more efficiently,
playfully and creatively, andwe're open for business.
So check us out at unseriouscomand let's be work friends.
At Unserious, we make work play.
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