June 17, 2024 • 8 mins
When people talk about managing up, they don't usually dig into what that actually means. But becoming your boss's biggest ally can have a profound affect on your career and professional well-being. In this episode, product management leader Katie Bolz, shares her profound and practical insights on aligning with your boss's goals, tackling tasks they might dread, and communicating with precision. By mastering these strategies, you’ll not only achieve greater autonomy but also pave your way to leadership roles and smoother team dynamics.
"A lot of us get hyper-focused on things like ‘I'm going to climb the ladder and here's all the steps’... But they forget to invest in the relationships or even how helpful they actually are to their immediate boss.” - Katie Bolz
PDF cheat sheet @ https://bit.ly/upshotsbolz
Follow or connect with Katie on LinkedIn.
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
This is Unserious today.
Our guest today is Katie Boltz,a product management all-star,
driving growth in e-comcompanies like Goo, public Goods
and subscription dog foodcompany.
Sundays for Dogs.
Welcome, katie.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Of course.
What skill are we building thisweek?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
This week we are talking about the art of
managing up.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
People talk about that all the time.
Does that mean like influencingyour own leadership?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It does.
It means being the bestemployee for your manager.
It is for people who arelooking for more autonomy,
looking for more independence intheir role.
It's for people wanting to moveinto leadership roles and
trying to figure out how best toposition themselves in the
organization and in the eyes ofpeople on the executive team.
It can also just be a way ofjust making sure you're a
(01:04):
regularly contributing member ofthe team.
The last one I'd say it's foris probably people who just feel
like they're not in sync withtheir boss, like you're not
seeing each other or hearingeach other.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, I feel like when you talk about managing up,
it's often for ICs, but as I'vegrown more senior in my career,
I feel like it's even moreimportant, like even like VPs
are doing this with theirC-levels Absolutely so why else
is this important?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
In my mind I think it's not talked about enough or
focused on enough.
It's kind of like a sound bitewhere somebody says, oh yeah,
make sure you're managing up,and everyone's like I don't know
what that is.
So I would say a lot of usduring our careers would get
hyper-focused on things like I'mgoing to climb the ladder and
here's how and here's all thesteps and here's the hard skills
I'm going to have.
And then I want to manage ateam and I'm going to go look
for people to mentor.
I'm going to take on these sideprojects.
I'm going to really provemyself that way.
But they forget to invest inthe relationships of how they
(01:54):
might be perceived by executivesor even how helpful they
actually are to their immediateboss.
Um, there's also this conceptof just like in general, if
everyone is getting along,there's just less friction,
there's less disagreements,there's less things to be
worried about.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But like in a productive way where you're not
like hiding things.
Yeah, yeah, midwest upbringinghere we get along real well
because we don't talk aboutanything important.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
My mom is a woodmesser, so I get it.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think that, um, people often think that their
manager will notice everythingthat they're doing or know what
they're thinking, and maybeyou're lucky enough to have a
manager that's a lot like you,but it seems a lot more
important when your boss is notlike you.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I also think.
Sometimes we think our bossmight be more like us than they
are.
We may assume that, oh, thethings I'm doing are exactly
what they would want, becausewhy wouldn't they that kind of
energy?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Fair point.
Yeah, fair point.
So what's your approach tomanaging up?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
The number one thing to start with is understanding
what your boss wants, so makingsure that they, you know, you
know exactly what they need.
I've had a lot of great bosses,but one that I currently have
actually has weekly goals andoutcomes, and it's such a treat
because I can simply say onMonday hey, what are, what are
our weekly goals and outcomes?
Right, cause his goals are mygoals.
(03:14):
Yeah, and getting that kind ofinformation is super helpful to
plan my week out.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
A lot easier than reading two leaves.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yes, yes.
Another one I'd mentioned isfiguring out what is your boss
doing that they may not want tobe doing, that.
They may not be the best at.
That might feel like somethingwhere you're like huh, my boss
is a C-level, I'm not reallysure why they're doing that
thing.
I'd be really good at that.
I should just do that.
You can always ask them andjust say, hey, I noticed there's
this thing I would love to dothat.
(03:41):
I'll have it done.
On Tuesday, when I was thedirector of product at Goop, I
had an awesome employee whodecided to start writing release
notes, which was, you know,kind of kind of a big task to be
in charge of writing those outand making sure they're.
They're fun and educational,and everyone felt good about the
products we were working on, um, and she just took the
(04:04):
initiative to write those andsent it to me and said, hey, how
do these look?
And I was like it's fantastic,fantastic, and I didn't ask her.
So, in a similar vein, beproactive with your actions.
Be doing things without youknow, waiting to be told or
waiting to be asked if somethingwas done.
Another thing I think is keyhere is communication is
(04:25):
critical as much as you'respending time doing the work,
you need to also be talkingabout the work in a helpful and
meaningful way.
One of the best things to do isjust be super conscious of the
time, too.
The managerial time, or anexecutive's time, is going to be
limited, so if you have a tonof questions, just bundle them
up, ask about the end of the day, do reflective thoughts and
then put them out there, andthen err on the side of
(04:46):
over-communicating and make surewhat you're talking about is
indeed valuable.
This is around company-widecommunication, too.
You're not just managing yourimmediate boss, you're also
managing really anyone.
You're talking through all thechains of command.
So another way to be smartabout this is to make sure, like
you know, you're talking toyour boss every day and making
(05:07):
sure they know what's going on,but also the other senior
executives that couldpotentially just be in Slack.
Here's what we're doing, here'swhy we're doing it, here's the
plan and any action steps thatmight be needed.
The other thing I'd say issolicit feedback and find out,
like, how do people like to becommunicated with?
Everyone's different, yeah, soone thing I do when I'm again.
This is sometimes.
This is with newerrelationships, when you're
figuring out how to how to getalong.
Well, um, it's just asking andjust being like hey, here's how
(05:30):
I like to give information,here's how I like to format it.
What do you think of this?
Is this helpful?
Do you like the way I organizethis?
Do you think that you'd wantmore or less in this area?
You should always be lookingfor feedback and looking for
improvements, and then howyou're communicating and then
adjusting as needed.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, so I'm hearing figure out what makes your
manager tick and how those waysmight be different than the way
you operate, and now you have agap that you can address.
So then you're in a positionwhere you can anticipate the
needs and be there to help themachieve their goals, which is
ultimately better for everybody.
It's better for you, better forthe manager, better for the
organization.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay, there's always pitfalls.
What should we watch out forhere?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I think we're relationship building like this
and we're managing up can gowrong is if you angle it about
yourself.
I need this, I need that, Ineed to be communicated with in
this manner and it's like that'sall great, that's nice to have
those things and then understandand have the reflection of
yourself.
But the reality is it's aboutyou being helpful and you being
a contributor, and generallyyou'll find that you will be
happier if you are a valuableand helpful contributor and all
(06:43):
those things come together.
So instead of coming in at thebeginning and saying here's what
makes me happy, you know, youcan kind of get to that
conclusion in a different way.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
How to human 101.
Yeah, Any any good pro tipshere?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
One thing that can work well is getting a sense of,
like, what are your directmanager's goals?
Like, are you working with,maybe like an engineering
manager who wants to be a VP ofengineering and you want to help
them get to that level.
Understanding their goals canbe really helpful because then
you can basically create a Venndiagram of like what's good for
you, what's good for them,what's good for the company, and
(07:18):
how those things will overlap,yeah, and that can be a really
good growth plan for you thatalso benefits them.
And lastly, you know, pro tipis just be a nice person, you
know, be authentic and show upin a kind way.
I think that goes really reallyfar.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
It does, and I like that a lot.
Sometimes with these kinds oftips that involve, like,
managing up sounds likeinfluencing people and
influencing people sounds liketricking people, and there's
nothing really dark patternabout this right.
It's like you just want tosupport this other person that
you work a lot with and makesure everybody wins.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Exactly.
You're trying to figure out howto be valuable and helpful,
truly Right.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah Well, you've been very valuable and helpful
today.
Thank you so much for being on.
Thank you.
We can connect with Katie onLinkedIn, at Katie bolts, and in
the show notes we'll have alink to the PDF cheat sheet that
accompanies every upshotsepisode.
This podcast is brought to youby unserious group.
We're a communications andstrategic consulting practice
(08:18):
that helps companies and leadersnavigate the rapidly changing
workplace by lowering the stakesand working more efficiently,
playfully and creatively.
At Unserious, we make work play.
This is Unserious today.
Our guest today is Katie Boltz,a product management all-star,
driving growth in e-comcompanies like Goo, public Goods
and subscription dog foodcompany.
Sundays for Dogs.
Welcome, katie.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Of course.
What skill are we building thisweek?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
This week we are talking about the art of
managing up.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
People talk about that all the time.
Does that mean like influencingyour own leadership?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It does.
It means being the bestemployee for your manager.
It is for people who arelooking for more autonomy,
looking for more independence intheir role.
It's for people wanting to moveinto leadership roles and
trying to figure out how best toposition themselves in the
organization and in the eyes ofpeople on the executive team.
It can also just be a way ofjust making sure you're a
(01:04):
regularly contributing member ofthe team.
The last one I'd say it's foris probably people who just feel
like they're not in sync withtheir boss, like you're not
seeing each other or hearingeach other.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, I feel like when you talk about managing up,
it's often for ICs, but as I'vegrown more senior in my career,
I feel like it's even moreimportant, like even like VPs
are doing this with theirC-levels Absolutely so why else
is this important?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
In my mind I think it's not talked about enough or
focused on enough.
It's kind of like a sound bitewhere somebody says, oh yeah,
make sure you're managing up,and everyone's like I don't know
what that is.
So I would say a lot of usduring our careers would get
hyper-focused on things like I'mgoing to climb the ladder and
here's how and here's all thesteps and here's the hard skills
I'm going to have.
And then I want to manage ateam and I'm going to go look
for people to mentor.
I'm going to take on these sideprojects.
I'm going to really provemyself that way.
But they forget to invest inthe relationships of how they
(01:54):
might be perceived by executivesor even how helpful they
actually are to their immediateboss.
Um, there's also this conceptof just like in general, if
everyone is getting along,there's just less friction,
there's less disagreements,there's less things to be
worried about.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But like in a productive way where you're not
like hiding things.
Yeah, yeah, midwest upbringinghere we get along real well
because we don't talk aboutanything important.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
My mom is a woodmesser, so I get it.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think that, um, people often think that their
manager will notice everythingthat they're doing or know what
they're thinking, and maybeyou're lucky enough to have a
manager that's a lot like you,but it seems a lot more
important when your boss is notlike you.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I also think.
Sometimes we think our bossmight be more like us than they
are.
We may assume that, oh, thethings I'm doing are exactly
what they would want, becausewhy wouldn't they that kind of
energy?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Fair point.
Yeah, fair point.
So what's your approach tomanaging up?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
The number one thing to start with is understanding
what your boss wants, so makingsure that they, you know, you
know exactly what they need.
I've had a lot of great bosses,but one that I currently have
actually has weekly goals andoutcomes, and it's such a treat
because I can simply say onMonday hey, what are, what are
our weekly goals and outcomes?
Right, cause his goals are mygoals.
(03:14):
Yeah, and getting that kind ofinformation is super helpful to
plan my week out.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
A lot easier than reading two leaves.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yes, yes.
Another one I'd mentioned isfiguring out what is your boss
doing that they may not want tobe doing, that.
They may not be the best at.
That might feel like somethingwhere you're like huh, my boss
is a C-level, I'm not reallysure why they're doing that
thing.
I'd be really good at that.
I should just do that.
You can always ask them andjust say, hey, I noticed there's
this thing I would love to dothat.
(03:41):
I'll have it done.
On Tuesday, when I was thedirector of product at Goop, I
had an awesome employee whodecided to start writing release
notes, which was, you know,kind of kind of a big task to be
in charge of writing those outand making sure they're.
They're fun and educational,and everyone felt good about the
products we were working on, um, and she just took the
(04:04):
initiative to write those andsent it to me and said, hey, how
do these look?
And I was like it's fantastic,fantastic, and I didn't ask her.
So, in a similar vein, beproactive with your actions.
Be doing things without youknow, waiting to be told or
waiting to be asked if somethingwas done.
Another thing I think is keyhere is communication is
(04:25):
critical as much as you'respending time doing the work,
you need to also be talkingabout the work in a helpful and
meaningful way.
One of the best things to do isjust be super conscious of the
time, too.
The managerial time, or anexecutive's time, is going to be
limited, so if you have a tonof questions, just bundle them
up, ask about the end of the day, do reflective thoughts and
then put them out there, andthen err on the side of
(04:46):
over-communicating and make surewhat you're talking about is
indeed valuable.
This is around company-widecommunication, too.
You're not just managing yourimmediate boss, you're also
managing really anyone.
You're talking through all thechains of command.
So another way to be smartabout this is to make sure, like
you know, you're talking toyour boss every day and making
(05:07):
sure they know what's going on,but also the other senior
executives that couldpotentially just be in Slack.
Here's what we're doing, here'swhy we're doing it, here's the
plan and any action steps thatmight be needed.
The other thing I'd say issolicit feedback and find out,
like, how do people like to becommunicated with?
Everyone's different, yeah, soone thing I do when I'm again.
This is sometimes.
This is with newerrelationships, when you're
figuring out how to how to getalong.
Well, um, it's just asking andjust being like hey, here's how
(05:30):
I like to give information,here's how I like to format it.
What do you think of this?
Is this helpful?
Do you like the way I organizethis?
Do you think that you'd wantmore or less in this area?
You should always be lookingfor feedback and looking for
improvements, and then howyou're communicating and then
adjusting as needed.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, so I'm hearing figure out what makes your
manager tick and how those waysmight be different than the way
you operate, and now you have agap that you can address.
So then you're in a positionwhere you can anticipate the
needs and be there to help themachieve their goals, which is
ultimately better for everybody.
It's better for you, better forthe manager, better for the
organization.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Okay, there's always pitfalls.
What should we watch out forhere?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I think we're relationship building like this
and we're managing up can gowrong is if you angle it about
yourself.
I need this, I need that, Ineed to be communicated with in
this manner and it's like that'sall great, that's nice to have
those things and then understandand have the reflection of
yourself.
But the reality is it's aboutyou being helpful and you being
a contributor, and generallyyou'll find that you will be
happier if you are a valuableand helpful contributor and all
(06:43):
those things come together.
So instead of coming in at thebeginning and saying here's what
makes me happy, you know, youcan kind of get to that
conclusion in a different way.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
How to human 101.
Yeah, Any any good pro tipshere?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
One thing that can work well is getting a sense of,
like, what are your directmanager's goals?
Like, are you working with,maybe like an engineering
manager who wants to be a VP ofengineering and you want to help
them get to that level.
Understanding their goals canbe really helpful because then
you can basically create a Venndiagram of like what's good for
you, what's good for them,what's good for the company, and
(07:18):
how those things will overlap,yeah, and that can be a really
good growth plan for you thatalso benefits them.
And lastly, you know, pro tipis just be a nice person, you
know, be authentic and show upin a kind way.
I think that goes really reallyfar.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
It does, and I like that a lot.
Sometimes with these kinds oftips that involve, like,
managing up sounds likeinfluencing people and
influencing people sounds liketricking people, and there's
nothing really dark patternabout this right.
It's like you just want tosupport this other person that
you work a lot with and makesure everybody wins.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Exactly.
You're trying to figure out howto be valuable and helpful,
truly Right.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah Well, you've been very valuable and helpful
today.
Thank you so much for being on.
Thank you.
We can connect with Katie onLinkedIn, at Katie bolts, and in
the show notes we'll have alink to the PDF cheat sheet that
accompanies every upshotsepisode.
This podcast is brought to youby unserious group.
We're a communications andstrategic consulting practice
(08:18):
that helps companies and leadersnavigate the rapidly changing
workplace by lowering the stakesand working more efficiently,
playfully and creatively.
At Unserious, we make work play.
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