November 11, 2024 • 37 mins
In this Episode, Pastor Bob and Pastor Trent talk about the topic of one of our discipleship classes. Pastor Bob is teaching a class on the churches of Revelation. Our pastors discuss the historical and scriptural landscapes of the seven churches. As we reflect on the messages to each church, we emphasize the enduring lessons of faithfulness and failure, encouraging introspection on spiritual health and priorities. Tune in to this week's episode, and if you enjoy studying Revelation, consider joining Pastor Bob on Wednesdays at FBC for his discipleship class!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Unsexy
Church Podcast.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Are you talking to us or to the audience?
I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Well, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You said hello everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Pastor Bob, how are you doing?
I don't know who he's talkingto Kara.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Did you know who he was talking to?
No, See how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I got a headache today, dude.
No, I was talking to Kara.
No see, that's why I can't tellyou got a headache, if only.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
It's getting worse.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Right as we start a podcast, do you have any
remedies that you do forheadaches?
Drink a lot of water, take anap.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Do a handstand.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Are you a Tylenol guy Handstand?
Will that work?
Yeah, then I just fall and ithurts my back.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
My back will hurt worse than my head.
A handstand, that's like moreblood to your head.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
You gotta hold it so that the blood rushes to your
head.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Oh no, I feel like that'd make it so much worse.
I'd have a headache and thenI'd pass out.
What is the problem of the bone?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
There's different types.
What happens is, you have toomany conversations with Trent
and then you have a headache,that's usually what happens in
my life.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yes, thanks, guys, but more blood going to the
brain, I feel like, would causeit to be a lot worse.
You're probably right.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Right, probably.
Yeah, some of them are tensionheadaches.
Mine today is like lack ofsleep.
I just haven't been sleeping.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, Some of them are tension headaches Mine's
today's, like lack of sleep.
I just haven't been sleeping,oh yeah, so uh, do you?
Are you a Tylenol guy?
Are you a leave?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Can't do a leave, can't do it.
Why yeah, blood pressure?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Does it have caffeine ?
No, it impacts blood pressureInteresting.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Okay, cause.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Because I know, like Excedrin, migraine has caffeine
in it A lot of caffeine.
Yeah, that's the primary yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, well, hey, we're back in studio.
Enough about that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I think we were a week off.
Yeah, we were in Knoxville lastweek, that's right, so you and
I were not here that was fun.
It was a good trip.
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Had a to be up there and we'll be up there before we
know it.
Kara, how are you?
How far away are you?
When are you getting married?
17 days 17 days and it wascoming soon.
It is the 24th of November howexciting.
Very cool.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, first thing I need to do when I get off of
here is set all that thing upwith the Hillsborough County
situation.
Well, the election results camein.
We're past election season,which means less phone calls,
less phone calls, less textmessages, text messages.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Less, everything.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Less political commercials and ads, less signs
and street corners and all ofthe above Won't miss it.
I got a scam call today.
I'm like we're past electionseason but it wasn't about the
election, so I feel like we'reall slow moving.
You've got a headache and I hadcoffee earlier and I'm feeling
the low from the coffee.
But hey, I have a few thingsthat I want to talk about.
(03:01):
The first is the fact of theday.
Okay, Did you know that inancient Egypt, servants were
supposedly smeared with honey sothat flies would flock to them
instead of the Pharaoh?
Wow, so if there's a flyproblem, they said well, let's
just make it a servant flyproblem rather than a Pharaoh
fly problem.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I believe that.
How sad is that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
But once the flies stuck to the honey they wouldn't
be as annoying as if they'reflying around you.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean yeah, but I doubt they got every
square inch of their body right.
I mean they probably got it ontheir hands, maybe put it on
their back or something likethat.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
They didn't just dip them in honey and make them walk
down the main street of Cairo.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You know I don't have details here.
Pastor Bob, you brought thefact of the day.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'm just diving into this fascinating fact.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Any ideas?
Like are there some countriesthat have continents that have
more problems with flies?
Like, is there a lot of fliesin Egypt?
I think so.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I think so.
Kara says yes, so it must betrue.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Because there are certainly days like flies are a
significant problem.
I feel like Kara says yes, soit must be true, because there
are certainly days like fliesare a significant problem.
I feel like there are also daysit's like a saw flyer day,
right, if you put honey onsomeone, are you just like
attracting all the flies thatwouldn't have been there
otherwise.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
We should put honey on Trent.
We should, and just let's testthis theory.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Sit outside?
Yeah, hmm, so well, that begsthe question.
You know when there were swarmsof you?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
know gnats and flies and stuff and the plagues.
They put honey on theIsraelites, hmm, to keep them
away from Pharaoh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Maybe, maybe, as wrath of God increased,
persecution potentiallyincreased.
Actually, no, it did, becausehe made them make bricks without
straw.
This is the weirdestconversation you know.
Okay, I have a question for you.
I got to wake up.
Here we go.
What's the weirdest gift?
Okay, so let me give somecontext here.
(04:58):
Baptists, and I am sure otherdenominations, include some very
generous people.
Pastors like ourselves areoftentimes the recipients of
gifts of appreciation, right,pastor Bob?
Would you be willing to share?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
No, what is the weirdest gift you've ever
received?
No, can you tell us who gave itto you?
No, well, that's not what youcan do.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Could you share think of the weirdest gifts you have
received and then cut out theones that are involved in the
last 16 years of your life, sothat it's so far that the
person's probably not listeningto this podcast?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Can you think of any really interesting gifts you've
received?
This is not a weird gift, butwhen I was serving at Rondo
Baptist Church in Flemington,missouri, it's the first
pastorate that I served in.
I was the lead pastor of asmall country church the only
pastor of a small country churchand I would often get the
produce from the farms of thepeople there, which was a huge
blessing.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
That's so good.
Oh, it was a huge blessing.
Oh, it was a huge blessing.
Yeah, we had that in Chieflandas well.
What a blessing that was.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
But it was just kind of funny, like one day, you know
, I'd go in to preach and thatday I'm like going home with a
bunch of cucumber right.
Cucumbers, it was funny.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So, yeah, we had a peanut farmer in Chiefland and
Darlene thought that it would bea great idea to have to pull
the peanuts off the stock andeverything.
And the farmer's like you don'twant to do that.
She's like, yeah, I want toexperience that.
So they brought just like atruckload and dumped them in our
front yard and Darlene had tostart picking those peanuts off
(06:34):
of there.
And so the next year they camearound and said wait, you want
those peanuts?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yes, but so yeah, it was good.
So that's a weird gift.
It's not a bad gift.
Bad doesn't necessarily meanweird.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I got another weird gift.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, in Little Rock, arkansas, when I was serving
there, I was given a shotgun,which makes sense.
It's Arkansas right, so I stillhave that shotgun.
I have a pump action shotgun,yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
A 12 gauge Remington shotgun.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
When you came into the church they said you know,
had a couple guns but I did nothave a shotgun and they said
this is duck hunting territory,wabbit, you need a shotgun.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
He didn't get the joke.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
I was given wabbits.
It's duck season Wabbit ElmerFudd.
Yes, elmer Fudd, yeah, yeah, sothat was one of the weirder
gifts.
Can you think of any other oneshave you ever received?
Has Jaden ever given you areally weird gift?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
She's getting married at 17 days.
She can't answer that question,yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I can't answer that question.
He's probably given you someinteresting gifts.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
No, jaden's.
He's given me some good gifts.
I would say he's a good giftgiver, but I what's the of all
the gifts he's given you?
No there's no worst gift, no,but.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I am thinking what.
It doesn't have to be a badgift, but it's the worst of the
ones you received.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I don't even know, I can't even think of all good
things.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
What's the worst gift that you've ever received from
your wife?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, answer that Writtle me that I don't want to
answer that.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
But we have been receiving a lot of gifts like
from like, for because we'regetting married, you know, and
so just a lot of stuff has beencoming in and there there is a
gift.
That was a little strange, thatyou know, I don't know, but
it's, it's not someone here?
It's not bad, I'm, you know,I'm, no, no, I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
He's trying to was the environment, the strange
part of it, no, okay, no, but itwas like.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
It was like you know, someone sees something and they
think of you and they're likewe got this for you because we
thought of you and it wasstrange.
It was strange.
I can tell you maybe after thisis over, because I it's still,
it was still too close to I.
Just I don't think anyone'sgoing to hear this, who gave it
at all, but it's still strange.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Did you ever get like half a cow or anything like
that from any church members?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Oh yeah, that was a huge blessing.
That wasn't a bad gift, thatwas an awesome gift, but weird
maybe to some people like itgave you half a cow as a gift,
yeah, side of beef.
It was awesome.
Someone gave you half a cow.
Yeah, we got a quarter cow.
I had to go buy a freezer.
There was so much meat.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
It was so good.
We got a quarter cow from afamily in Mount Vernon and then
we would get half a cow from myfather-in-law, who has plenty of
cows.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Huge gift yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Great gift, amazing gift.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Great gift.
Any other weird gifts you canthink of.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
None that I'm sharing .
No, I feel like I probably haveone, but I can't think this is
questions we can't answer.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, but that's why people are listening.
They're like oh, are they goingto say something?
I give them that gift.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
People who give gifts love you.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
They're very kind, that's right.
So it's like what are you?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
going to say Okay, do you re-g?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I've regifted gifts before, but I don't think I've
regifted any bad ones.
So for our wedding, forwhatever reason, we got three
toaster ovens three of the sametoaster oven, sure.
And so when we went to awedding I wasn't necessarily
super close with the people.
It's been a while.
I've already given them allaway.
But if we weren't super closewith that couple, it was an easy
(10:08):
gift to give.
That was substantial.
It was $50, $60 toaster oven.
If we knew them personally, weknew they didn't have it on
their registry we wouldn't givethem that.
But if we did not know thecouple, we'd hey we wanted to
give you a toaster oven.
They were sitting in our closetfor a while.
All right, here we go.
Would you rather, maybe two?
(10:28):
Would you rathers, pastor Bob?
Would you rather never have alife?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Never have a life.
That's not very nice.
No, I feel like this is writtenweird.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I'm reading it out loud Would you rather get rid of
air conditioning or get rid ofdeodorant, if you had to get rid
of one For myself?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
or for others.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
For yourself, but it affects others.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yes, but if they have deodorant it doesn't affect me
as badly.
Correct, but everybody doesn'twant to see you, You're just
getting rid of deodorant period.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
No getting rid of deodorant for yourself so you
can experience air conditioningthe rest of your life or you
cannot put on deodorant the restof your life.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, I'll take the AC.
You want the AC for sure, forsure, in Florida, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, kira, you canfind other alternatives for
deodorant.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Sure, you can move to Alaska, though, for air
conditioning.
Yes, but you didn't.
But that's significant, yes,that's true.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I feel like I would rather have the deodorant than
the air conditioning.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
No way.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Do you know how hot it gets in this?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
office.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
What would you rather have?
We'd rather you have deodorant.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
You can have the deodorant.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
We'll take the air conditioning I would rather have
, but then you guys are going tobe disgusting.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
That's fine, you can stay away.
You can stay away, I'll staycool.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
It doesn't say you can't use other products.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Alright Kara.
What an answer, Because they'reall smelling like natural
deodorant over here, then no oneelse is thinking that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Kara, I'm trying to think he doesn't even know what
his button is Nope.
I don't, I was trying to readwhat they were.
Okay, hey, we have a topic.
So did you go AC and notdeodorant, for sure.
For sure, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, so we can remain cool and
comfortable and we don't have tosmell Kara, she's going to be
(12:17):
she's going to have deodorant.
We're going to be in the airconditioning.
Yeah, I mean whatever you know.
You know she's okay with it.
What is the worst smell?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Is it BO or is it like burping?
I'm not a BO fan.
A BO smells very sour yeah nota fan.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, okay, our topic of the day we are doing our
Wednesday night classes.
They're back in session.
So every Wednesday night wehave three options for adults in
the life of our church toattend.
There is a class ondiscipleship and having groups
of individuals that arediscipling one another.
Led by Pastor Darren, I'm doinga class on Baptist history so
(12:55):
who are all these Baptists andwhere do they come from?
And then there's a third class,the most attended class,
well-attended class, is PastorBob's class and it's the Seven
Churches of Revelation.
I want to go to your class.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I really do.
I would love to refresh onBaptist history.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, we talked about John of Leiden or Jan.
Come on now, it's well attended, thank you.
It's Jan of Leiden, who was anAnabaptist I mean truly a cult
leader in Münster, germany, andwe talked about how he had 15
wives, wore a gold medallionthat said he was the king of
(13:32):
righteousness and proclaimed tonot only be the king of Moonstar
but the messianic king ofJerusalem.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Wild.
I'm going to pass on the 15wives, but I'll take the gold
chain.
The gold chain.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
The king of righteousness, but because of
his anarchy and trying to set upa theocratic state, the
Catholic Church did not like ittook over the country from him
and then paraded him around on achain.
So things did not go well forJan Bokkelsen.
In fact, I think that Moonstraexperiment only lasted like a
year, and so it was veryshort-lived.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
See, these are the kind of little historical
tidbits that are fun to learn.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
There are some fun things.
Yeah, these are the kind oflittle historical tidbits that
are fun to learn.
There are some fun things.
Yeah, there are also thingslike Luther had.
While we have a great debt toLuther for the reforms that he
made, he also had a great mouthon him.
And so he would make somecomments here and there that are
quite funny, some of which wehave to substitute with
different words, so we'll talk alittle bit about that last
(14:33):
night as well.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Cool See that's what I would.
I get to hear myself teach allthe time.
I'd love to come sit on one ofyour classes.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Do you know the phrase where Luther had?
I can't remember the cardinal'sname, but Luther had been
confronted by the CatholicChurch and he had to stand
before a cardinal.
This is before the Diet ofWorms, and at the time the
Gutenberg Press had been around,and so not only were books
being copied at a rapid rate,but they were able to even do
(15:05):
cartoons and publications veryquickly, and so there were
certain things that Luther hadsaid that were comical and were
put into comic strips, and aftera certain meeting with a
cardinal that was public, hesaid that that cardinal was
about as fit to handle thatmeeting as a donkey would be to
(15:27):
play a harp, and so a picture ofa donkey with that quote was
circulating around Germany.
So you know, it's verypicturesque, sounds very much
like Luther.
Yeah, all right, hey, so wewant to talk about the seven
churches of Revelation.
Now when you say Revelation,people's eyes open wide and
(15:48):
their ears perk up.
What is happening today?
Right, years per cup.
What is happening today?
Right, but the seven churchesof Revelation in the first three
chapters primarily chapter twoand chapter three were the
initial recipients of the letter.
Let's talk about them in thispodcast.
So I already just kind of saida little bit about seven
(16:08):
churches, but let's back up alittle bit the book of
Revelation as a whole.
What are we talking about inthe book of Revelation?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
We're talking about God peeling back the curtain and
revealing to his servant John,who is on the island of Patmos.
Is this the disciple?
This is the disciple whom Jesusloved?
That John, not John the Baptist, is it?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
weird that he wrote that he was so well loved and a
better writer than Peter in hisown gospel.
He's the humble guy who saysI'm faster than you.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
That's right.
So he's on the island.
It's a penal colony.
He's there because they'vetried to kill him and can't kill
him.
So they've exiled him to thisisland.
It's at the end of his earthlylife.
He's looking back over his lifein ministry, his life with
Christ, all the churches that heplanted and pastored, and now
(17:03):
he has no control over it andhe's probably sitting there
wondering how the church isdoing.
There's great persecutionthat's broken out.
There is those that are cominginto the church trying to cause
harm within the church, and sohe's struggling and God just
kind of peels back the curtainof heaven and says let me just
give you a revelation, arevealing, a prophetic vision, a
(17:27):
prophetic vision of what'sgoing on right now, what has
happened and what's going totake place.
So that's, in a nutshell, whatRevelation is.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
So those who take the later date of the writing of
Revelation, which I think weprobably both do.
Jerusalem has fallen, thechurch has been scattered and is
alive and well, but evading alot of persecution.
And well, but evading a lot ofpersecution.
The Roman emperors are, at thatpoint in time, if we're looking
(18:00):
at, like 80, 90, are startingto target Christians in ways
that they may have seen them asa nuisance before.
And so John is writing thisletter.
He addresses it to sevendifferent churches in Asia Minor
, he's told to address it tothese particular seven churches,
who I believe are actualchurches.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
That's probably one of the next things you're going
to talk about there.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
In that day they were , they were seven actual
churches in those cities along acommon trade route.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So these were letters that God said write these
things and send it to the angel,the messenger of this
particular church.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, so in the vision of the Son of man in
chapter one, if I'm not mistaken, we've got the lampstands.
The churches are the lampstands.
It's symbolic of the light ofthe world right Of Christ.
They're holding the light ofthe world right of Christ,
holding the light of Christ tothe world that they live in, and
(18:57):
Christ is walking amongst thelampstands.
He is present with his people,even though they're surviving
and thriving in persecution.
This letter would have beensent with like a courier.
How did John get this letter tothese churches?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So he's on an island.
Yeah, so he's on an island, soit has to be taken like a
courier.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
How did, how did?
How did john get this?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
letter to these churches.
So he's on an island, yeah, sohe's on an island, so it has to
be taken through a courier.
So a courier is probably takingthese letters to the churches,
if not even a circular concept.
So the church that was.
The letter written to ephesuswas probably read there, then
taken to smyrna and they read itas well.
But they were, the letters werespecifically written to those
church, individual churches.
So, uh, they were taken by someform of a courier to take them.
Um, as john is receiving thisvision from god, he hears a
(19:44):
voice, he turns to see the voice.
He then gives the depiction ofwhat christ looks like and, as
you said, he's standing amongstthese seven lampstands.
We don't have to guess whatthose seven lampstands are.
It's told in chapter one thatthey are the churches, but it
also says he's holding in hishand the seven stars or the
seven messengers, the sevenangels, who?
(20:05):
Folks interpret thatdifferently.
Some think those are literallyheavenly angels and each church
has an angel.
Some think they're differentbeings.
I think they represent themessenger, the pastor of the of
those churches.
So he's writing this and saying, okay, write what you hear,
what you see, to the church inEphesus, right to the church in
(20:26):
Pergamum right this.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, you didn't.
You didn't ask what I think ofthe.
I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I assumed you think correctly, like I do.
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So once we get to the writing to each individual
church, it seems Okay.
So in the New Testament youhave, like, philippians and
Colossians and Ephesians andthese are letters written by
Paul to specific churches thechurch at Ephesus, the church at
Philippi, the church atColossians and Ephesians.
(20:58):
And these are letters writtenby Paul to specific churches the
church at Ephesus, the churchat Philippi, the church at
Colossae.
This particular letter, whereJohn was told to write what he
had seen and what the Lordrevealed to him, is written to
seven different churches, andthose churches, just like the
other letters in the NewTestament, all have specific
issues, are doing some thingswell and doing some things that
Not so well.
Help us see how this book isone story, one vision, but for
(21:27):
seven churches.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Sure.
So each of these churches hasparticular issues.
They have individual membersthere, they're in locations that
are different from one another,and so as we read the letters,
we have to see a few things.
One we have to put it in itscultural context, so we need to
(21:49):
learn about the cities thatthey're living in.
So the church in Ephesus isfacing some different things
than the church in Smyrna.
The church in Smyrna is facingdifferent things than the church
in Philadelphia.
We can also see if there is ahistory of how the church
started in the Bible.
Church of Ephesus.
We can read Acts, chapter 19,and see how that church started.
Church in Smyrna the only thingwe know about the church in
(22:11):
Smyrna is written right here inRevelation, chapter 2.
Each of the letters has acommon pattern, so they're very
similar, even though they'redifferent in what they say.
They're similar so there'salways a commendation.
Well, first it starts with apicture of Christ.
Each letter starts with avision of Christ, um, which
(22:33):
comes from the prologue inchapter one of John's vision.
So there's a, there's a pictureof Christ in each one that
speaks to those individualchurches.
For instance, smyrna, a churchthat's being persecuted, a
church where church members aregoing to jail and dying.
The vision of Christ is the onewho was dead and is now alive,
the first and the last, the onewho was here at the beginning
(22:53):
and will be here at the end, theone who was killed and is now
alive.
That's going to speak to thosethat are being persecuted, is
killed and is now alive.
That's going to speak to thosethat are being persecuted.
So there's a picture of Christ.
Then there is a commendation.
Jesus says you're doing thiswell to five of the seven
churches.
Sardis and Laodicea are theonly two that don't receive a
commendation.
He doesn't tell them they'redoing anything well.
(23:15):
There's then condemnation.
You've done this well, but Ihave this against you and
against five of the sevenchurches.
There's a condom datecondemnation.
Smyrna is not condemned, nor isPhiladelphia.
They don't receive commendationcondom condemnation.
Then there is a correction forthose who have been condemned.
(23:38):
Jesus said this is what you'vedone wrong.
Therefore, do this to correctit.
There's a correction For thechurches that don't receive a
condemnation.
There is a continuationContinue to do these things.
And then there is a commitment.
Christ makes a promise To himwho overcomes, I will give the
crown of life.
(23:58):
So there is a promise to eachor a commitment to each one, so
there's a common pattern therethat we can see.
Each one ends in the exact sameway.
Let him who has ear hear whatthe Spirit says to the churches
plural.
So it's not just what theSpirit says to this particular
church, but you need to knowwhat it says to all the churches
.
So while I think these wereletters written to particular
(24:21):
churches in that particular time, I think they speak to the
church today as a whole and wecan learn from each of them.
Some would say that theserepresent churches in different
periods of time or differentstages that the church has gone
through, and that may or may notbe true.
I tend to think that these areletters written to individual
churches that speak as a wholeto the church today.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, and I think we can see, I mean, if we take this
to be like, in some ways, aletter from John as a pastor or
leader over some of thesechurches, who had experience
with these churches, when Paulwrites his letter to the church
in Ephesus, that book of theBible preached by pastors today
(25:07):
was not directly written to us,but was certainly written for
the church at all times and allplaces.
Same is true of these sevenchurches.
They are struggling with thingsthat we would struggle with
today, maybe not specific to,you know, temple prostitutes,
but surely to lust right.
Maybe not specific to ways inwhich they could, you know, gain
(25:32):
money or authority, but surelyto greed and a hunger for power.
So there are general you eachone of the letters, each one of
the specific addresses to thechurches.
I think you mentioned somethingthere that I just want to put my
(25:53):
finger on, when you said thatit gives a picture of Christ.
Every time you know to thechurch at Ephesus, be reminded
of Christ, who is blank.
You also mentioned that thatcoordinates with the
commendation or the condemnationhow pastoral of John right.
(26:16):
When we, as pastors, might sitdown in our office and we talk
about the Lord to someonestruggling with guilt over their
sin or with a hunger for theirsin.
We would remind them of the Godwho is a judge in one case, but
in another case of the God whois a gracious Savior In the
(26:40):
other case.
Right, both are true.
It takes a pastor to know whatreminder needs to be given to a
particular person, and so howpastoral are these letters
John's thinking through?
God is the great judge, god isthe merciful Savior, god is the
Father who does not leave younor forsake you, and he does
this kind of work in each churchbecause of the predicament or
(27:03):
problem that they're dealingwith each one.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
He points them to Jesus in some way he points them
to Jesus, which is really whatRevelation is, really what all
the Bible is but Revelation.
If we get caught up in all theeschatology and all the
symbolism in the book ofRevelation and we don't see
Jesus, we miss the point.
Jesus is the point ofRevelation.
You and we don't see Jesus, wemiss the point.
Jesus is the point ofRevelation.
You know the coming king whowill reign and rule.
We miss the point if we missJesus.
(27:26):
And so he points them, everyone of the churches, he points
straight to Jesus.
So very pastoral.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
The call to conquer at the end is a call to continue
in the faith by the power ofthe Spirit, so that you might
receive the crown of life oreternity with Christ forever.
He might word it differently,but the hope is.
Christ is with you.
Be faithful to Christ.
He will return for you right.
No matter what you go through,continue to be faithful.
Anything you want to point outMaybe you want to say something
(27:56):
about Ephesus or Laodicea,anything about any specific
church.
You want to say something aboutEphesus or Laodicea, anything
about any specific church youwant to point out.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
There's something in each one of them for us that we
can learn.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Some of them were like Ephesus, some of them are
opposites of one another, sure,so Ephesus, for example, seemed
to be like I use terms when Ipreach to the seven churches the
doctrinal church on defense,almost kind of like losing their
love for God and man.
But man, they've got theirdoctrine right, right, and so,
(28:26):
um, they've become calloused,maybe because of, um, the need
to consistently fight off poordoctrine.
Maybe the book of Acts kind ofhints toward that, um, and then
you've got a church like was itThyatira?
That was just super tolerant,right, allowing different
(28:50):
teaching to come in and allowingdifferent practices to continue
in the life of their members,and so one was almost too
intolerant, right of theunbelieving people coming in, it
seems like Ephesus, and one wastoo tolerant of well, here's a
platform for you which could besaid of churches today.
One might lean a little bit tooon the.
(29:11):
This is our church, our holyhuddle.
Another church might say who'sin charge?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, there's the contrast there between a church
that um is faithful to doctrinalfidelity I've just been
redundant, but they've.
They've been faithful todoctrine and yet he says I have
this against you.
You've left your first love, uhwhereas Thyatira, you guys are
tolerating sin and you're notstanding up for doctrinal.
You may be loving people, butyou're not really loving them
(29:39):
because you're not standing upfor doctrinal integrity.
So yeah, they're allinteresting.
Smyrna is a church where hesays you have nothing.
I see the persecution, I seethat they've taken everything
from you, yet you're rich.
And then to oh, is it Laodiceathat he says you guys think
you're wealthy, but that's notLaodicea, sardis, sardis yeah,
(30:02):
sardis was the nominal church.
Yeah, he says you think you haveeverything, but you're nothing.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
When I taught on these, I thought of different
churches of today and maybeover-characterizing different
churches, but Sardis was thechurch that had a really big
building, a really big fountainin the front.
Their name was everywhere right, they were a good branded
church, which none of those arebad things.
The problem was what wasvisible was not what was
accurate.
Laodicea, it's the church thatprobably receives the strongest
(30:32):
rebuke, because Laodicea is thechurch that makes Jesus want to
puke.
He says I'll spit you out of mymouth.
Made his stomach sick.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, so just briefly , Ephesus is the church that
worked hard, but they lost theirlove.
They left their love.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
They intentionally left love.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Smyrna is the church that is persecuted and yet
remained faithful in everything.
Pergamum is the worldly church.
They let the outside world comein.
Thyatira is the church thattrivialized sin those that came
in and they didn't address sin.
Sardis is the church thatlooked alive on the outside but
(31:13):
they're dead on the inside.
The Holy Spirit's not present.
Philadelphia is a church thathas an open door.
They are at an open door totake the gospel.
And then Laodicea is the churchthat didn't think they needed
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Was Philadelphia, the really small church, like the
small group but faithful.
Maybe I think that wasPhiladelphia that, or it was one
of the two, smyrna orPhiladelphia, really small but
like the faithful few.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I think that was.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Philadelphia, I can't remember.
They were patient, they wereenduring, they'd been persecuted
, yeah, yeah.
So, as you think of just thelandscape of the church in
America, which is a pretty broadbrush, there are ways in which
any of these letters couldrepresent any churches in
America are ways in which any ofthese letters could represent
any churches in America.
What's one that you think justis a message needed for the
(32:06):
church in America?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I think they all are.
Honestly, I mean, I don't knowthat I can just say, okay, the
church in America, the church inWestern culture.
I think we all need to look atour own churches and say where
do we fit here?
Ephesus, the church that wasthe loveless church.
You've left your love.
When Paul wrote to that church40 years earlier, he commended
(32:27):
them for their love.
He says I've heard about theway I praise God for the way
you've loved the saints.
They were known for their love.
Something happened in 40 yearswhere now, when Christ writes to
that church, he says you guysdon't have any love, you've
become Pharisees, you've becomelegalists.
And so I think we all, asindividuals and as churches, we
(32:47):
have to examine and say okay,are we going down a path of
emphasis here?
Are we putting up a facade ofeverything's great and we've got
these wonderful ministries andour buildings look great, but
there's no power in this place?
You know I, so to say, thechurch in America is one of
these.
(33:08):
I don't know that I can pinpointone.
I think we all just have to say, okay, let's be honest and look
at our own lives.
Are we trivializing sin?
Are we over emphasizingdoctrine above love or love
above doctrine, rather thanfinding that balance?
Um, yeah, do we recognize theopen door that is before us to
take the gospel?
(33:28):
So I, yeah I don't know if I'manswering your question.
No, I think so.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I think I think too, um, and this is maybe a
different stream of aconversation I think sometimes
when we read this, what we thinkis most important of the things
that God commends, we see thatas the better church if that
makes sense.
Oh man, can you believe thechurch at Thyatira let all that
(33:52):
false teaching in Ephesus reallyhad it right?
It's like, okay, well, hold on.
Thyatira is commended for theirlove.
So let's be honest, love isimportant.
Jesus sees them as a lovingchurch.
But let's also see the factthat Ephesus, as great as you
might think they are, they didnot love.
That's a serious problem, andso we want to take all of the
(34:15):
commendations of all of thechurches for what they are and
say, okay, this is what Jesuswants.
He doesn't prefer necessarilyEphesus over Thyatira.
He prefers doctrinal fidelityand genuine love.
So we want to take all thecommendations and then follow
Jesus in his call to conquer orovercome, be faithful and endure
(34:39):
, and we need to take all of thecondemnations as warnings to do
self-evaluation.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
To look inwardly, are we doing what these churches
were guilty of doing?
Yeah, if Jesus were to write aneighth letter to the First
Baptist Church of Tampa, whatwould be in it?
What would he commend us forand what would he condemn us for
?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, that's good, that's good.
Any other thoughts?
Um, why?
Why should someone take time tostudy the seven churches of?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
revelation.
Cause Jesus wrote the lettersand put them in the Bible?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
because it's in the Bible because it's there?
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Uh, no, because that is true, but because it is a.
In many ways it is a cautionarytale, but it's also a
revelation that Jesus stillcares about his church.
He is still walking amongst thelampstands, he is still holding
the messengers in his hands.
He's not absent, he cares, hesees.
So he sees what's going on.
Nothing that happens to thechurch goes without God's notice
(35:34):
.
He cares about what takes place, but it also means he's paying
attention, he's watching, andthat should teach us okay, this
is his church, it's not ourchurch.
He died for it, he cares for it.
So how are we being goodstewards of the church, not just
as pastors, but as members of achurch?
How are we stewarding thatwhich God gave us?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Because Christ cares, yeah that which God gave us,
because Christ cares.
Yeah, the point at which youknow the point of each of these
letters is Jesus desires hischurch to endure, to conquer, to
be with him on the day that hereturns.
So you want to know how to dothat.
Here's a letter.
Here's a letter.
Right, all right?
Well, thanks for listening ineverybody.
Any thoughts, comments,questions?
(36:17):
Concerns 17 days away until youget married, kara.
So exciting.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
All right.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, I'm excited If you're not a part of a Wednesday
night class and you're thinkingyou know Baptist history really
, really, really, really, reallysounds fun, but it's just not
my time to study Baptist history.
Make sure that you go and learnmore about each individual
church, the seven churches ofrevelation on Wednesday nights
called love letters, I believe,uh sure.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, I think that's what we called it this time.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
All right, all right.
Well, if that's it, I want topress the music this time.
Here we go.
See you later, just kidding.
Bye, have a great time, justkidding.
Bye, have a great time.
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Unsexy
Church Podcast.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Are you talking to us or to the audience?
I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Well, we don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You said hello everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Pastor Bob, how are you doing?
I don't know who he's talkingto Kara.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Did you know who he was talking to?
No, See how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I got a headache today, dude.
No, I was talking to Kara.
No see, that's why I can't tellyou got a headache, if only.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
It's getting worse.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Right as we start a podcast, do you have any
remedies that you do forheadaches?
Drink a lot of water, take anap.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Do a handstand.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Are you a Tylenol guy Handstand?
Will that work?
Yeah, then I just fall and ithurts my back.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
My back will hurt worse than my head.
A handstand, that's like moreblood to your head.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
You gotta hold it so that the blood rushes to your
head.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Oh no, I feel like that'd make it so much worse.
I'd have a headache and thenI'd pass out.
What is the problem of the bone?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
There's different types.
What happens is, you have toomany conversations with Trent
and then you have a headache,that's usually what happens in
my life.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yes, thanks, guys, but more blood going to the
brain, I feel like, would causeit to be a lot worse.
You're probably right.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Right, probably.
Yeah, some of them are tensionheadaches.
Mine today is like lack ofsleep.
I just haven't been sleeping.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, Some of them are tension headaches Mine's
today's, like lack of sleep.
I just haven't been sleeping,oh yeah, so uh, do you?
Are you a Tylenol guy?
Are you a leave?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Can't do a leave, can't do it.
Why yeah, blood pressure?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Does it have caffeine ?
No, it impacts blood pressureInteresting.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Okay, cause.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Because I know, like Excedrin, migraine has caffeine
in it A lot of caffeine.
Yeah, that's the primary yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, well, hey, we're back in studio.
Enough about that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I think we were a week off.
Yeah, we were in Knoxville lastweek, that's right, so you and
I were not here that was fun.
It was a good trip.
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Had a to be up there and we'll be up there before we
know it.
Kara, how are you?
How far away are you?
When are you getting married?
17 days 17 days and it wascoming soon.
It is the 24th of November howexciting.
Very cool.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, first thing I need to do when I get off of
here is set all that thing upwith the Hillsborough County
situation.
Well, the election results camein.
We're past election season,which means less phone calls,
less phone calls, less textmessages, text messages.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Less, everything.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Less political commercials and ads, less signs
and street corners and all ofthe above Won't miss it.
I got a scam call today.
I'm like we're past electionseason but it wasn't about the
election, so I feel like we'reall slow moving.
You've got a headache and I hadcoffee earlier and I'm feeling
the low from the coffee.
But hey, I have a few thingsthat I want to talk about.
(03:01):
The first is the fact of theday.
Okay, Did you know that inancient Egypt, servants were
supposedly smeared with honey sothat flies would flock to them
instead of the Pharaoh?
Wow, so if there's a flyproblem, they said well, let's
just make it a servant flyproblem rather than a Pharaoh
fly problem.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I believe that.
How sad is that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
But once the flies stuck to the honey they wouldn't
be as annoying as if they'reflying around you.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean yeah, but I doubt they got every
square inch of their body right.
I mean they probably got it ontheir hands, maybe put it on
their back or something likethat.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
They didn't just dip them in honey and make them walk
down the main street of Cairo.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You know I don't have details here.
Pastor Bob, you brought thefact of the day.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'm just diving into this fascinating fact.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Any ideas?
Like are there some countriesthat have continents that have
more problems with flies?
Like, is there a lot of fliesin Egypt?
I think so.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I think so.
Kara says yes, so it must betrue.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Because there are certainly days like flies are a
significant problem.
I feel like Kara says yes, soit must be true, because there
are certainly days like fliesare a significant problem.
I feel like there are also daysit's like a saw flyer day,
right, if you put honey onsomeone, are you just like
attracting all the flies thatwouldn't have been there
otherwise.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
We should put honey on Trent.
We should, and just let's testthis theory.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Sit outside?
Yeah, hmm, so well, that begsthe question.
You know when there were swarmsof you?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
know gnats and flies and stuff and the plagues.
They put honey on theIsraelites, hmm, to keep them
away from Pharaoh, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Maybe, maybe, as wrath of God increased,
persecution potentiallyincreased.
Actually, no, it did, becausehe made them make bricks without
straw.
This is the weirdestconversation you know.
Okay, I have a question for you.
I got to wake up.
Here we go.
What's the weirdest gift?
Okay, so let me give somecontext here.
(04:58):
Baptists, and I am sure otherdenominations, include some very
generous people.
Pastors like ourselves areoftentimes the recipients of
gifts of appreciation, right,pastor Bob?
Would you be willing to share?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
No, what is the weirdest gift you've ever
received?
No, can you tell us who gave itto you?
No, well, that's not what youcan do.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Could you share think of the weirdest gifts you have
received and then cut out theones that are involved in the
last 16 years of your life, sothat it's so far that the
person's probably not listeningto this podcast?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Can you think of any really interesting gifts you've
received?
This is not a weird gift, butwhen I was serving at Rondo
Baptist Church in Flemington,missouri, it's the first
pastorate that I served in.
I was the lead pastor of asmall country church the only
pastor of a small country churchand I would often get the
produce from the farms of thepeople there, which was a huge
blessing.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
That's so good.
Oh, it was a huge blessing.
Oh, it was a huge blessing.
Yeah, we had that in Chieflandas well.
What a blessing that was.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
But it was just kind of funny, like one day, you know
, I'd go in to preach and thatday I'm like going home with a
bunch of cucumber right.
Cucumbers, it was funny.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So, yeah, we had a peanut farmer in Chiefland and
Darlene thought that it would bea great idea to have to pull
the peanuts off the stock andeverything.
And the farmer's like you don'twant to do that.
She's like, yeah, I want toexperience that.
So they brought just like atruckload and dumped them in our
front yard and Darlene had tostart picking those peanuts off
(06:34):
of there.
And so the next year they camearound and said wait, you want
those peanuts?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yes, but so yeah, it was good.
So that's a weird gift.
It's not a bad gift.
Bad doesn't necessarily meanweird.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I got another weird gift.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, in Little Rock, arkansas, when I was serving
there, I was given a shotgun,which makes sense.
It's Arkansas right, so I stillhave that shotgun.
I have a pump action shotgun,yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
A 12 gauge Remington shotgun.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
When you came into the church they said you know,
had a couple guns but I did nothave a shotgun and they said
this is duck hunting territory,wabbit, you need a shotgun.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
He didn't get the joke.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
I was given wabbits.
It's duck season Wabbit ElmerFudd.
Yes, elmer Fudd, yeah, yeah, sothat was one of the weirder
gifts.
Can you think of any other oneshave you ever received?
Has Jaden ever given you areally weird gift?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
She's getting married at 17 days.
She can't answer that question,yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I can't answer that question.
He's probably given you someinteresting gifts.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
No, jaden's.
He's given me some good gifts.
I would say he's a good giftgiver, but I what's the of all
the gifts he's given you?
No there's no worst gift, no,but.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
I am thinking what.
It doesn't have to be a badgift, but it's the worst of the
ones you received.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I don't even know, I can't even think of all good
things.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
What's the worst gift that you've ever received from
your wife?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, answer that Writtle me that I don't want to
answer that.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
But we have been receiving a lot of gifts like
from like, for because we'regetting married, you know, and
so just a lot of stuff has beencoming in and there there is a
gift.
That was a little strange, thatyou know, I don't know, but
it's, it's not someone here?
It's not bad, I'm, you know,I'm, no, no, I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
He's trying to was the environment, the strange
part of it, no, okay, no, but itwas like.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
It was like you know, someone sees something and they
think of you and they're likewe got this for you because we
thought of you and it wasstrange.
It was strange.
I can tell you maybe after thisis over, because I it's still,
it was still too close to I.
Just I don't think anyone'sgoing to hear this, who gave it
at all, but it's still strange.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Did you ever get like half a cow or anything like
that from any church members?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Oh yeah, that was a huge blessing.
That wasn't a bad gift, thatwas an awesome gift, but weird
maybe to some people like itgave you half a cow as a gift,
yeah, side of beef.
It was awesome.
Someone gave you half a cow.
Yeah, we got a quarter cow.
I had to go buy a freezer.
There was so much meat.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
It was so good.
We got a quarter cow from afamily in Mount Vernon and then
we would get half a cow from myfather-in-law, who has plenty of
cows.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Huge gift yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Great gift, amazing gift.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Great gift.
Any other weird gifts you canthink of.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
None that I'm sharing .
No, I feel like I probably haveone, but I can't think this is
questions we can't answer.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, but that's why people are listening.
They're like oh, are they goingto say something?
I give them that gift.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
People who give gifts love you.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
They're very kind, that's right.
So it's like what are you?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
going to say Okay, do you re-g?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I've regifted gifts before, but I don't think I've
regifted any bad ones.
So for our wedding, forwhatever reason, we got three
toaster ovens three of the sametoaster oven, sure.
And so when we went to awedding I wasn't necessarily
super close with the people.
It's been a while.
I've already given them allaway.
But if we weren't super closewith that couple, it was an easy
(10:08):
gift to give.
That was substantial.
It was $50, $60 toaster oven.
If we knew them personally, weknew they didn't have it on
their registry we wouldn't givethem that.
But if we did not know thecouple, we'd hey we wanted to
give you a toaster oven.
They were sitting in our closetfor a while.
All right, here we go.
Would you rather, maybe two?
(10:28):
Would you rathers, pastor Bob?
Would you rather never have alife?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Never have a life.
That's not very nice.
No, I feel like this is writtenweird.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I'm reading it out loud Would you rather get rid of
air conditioning or get rid ofdeodorant, if you had to get rid
of one For myself?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
or for others.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
For yourself, but it affects others.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yes, but if they have deodorant it doesn't affect me
as badly.
Correct, but everybody doesn'twant to see you, You're just
getting rid of deodorant period.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
No getting rid of deodorant for yourself so you
can experience air conditioningthe rest of your life or you
cannot put on deodorant the restof your life.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, I'll take the AC.
You want the AC for sure, forsure, in Florida, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, kira, you canfind other alternatives for
deodorant.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Sure, you can move to Alaska, though, for air
conditioning.
Yes, but you didn't.
But that's significant, yes,that's true.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I feel like I would rather have the deodorant than
the air conditioning.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
No way.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Do you know how hot it gets in this?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
office.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
What would you rather have?
We'd rather you have deodorant.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
You can have the deodorant.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
We'll take the air conditioning I would rather have
, but then you guys are going tobe disgusting.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
That's fine, you can stay away.
You can stay away, I'll staycool.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
It doesn't say you can't use other products.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Alright Kara.
What an answer, Because they'reall smelling like natural
deodorant over here, then no oneelse is thinking that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Kara, I'm trying to think he doesn't even know what
his button is Nope.
I don't, I was trying to readwhat they were.
Okay, hey, we have a topic.
So did you go AC and notdeodorant, for sure.
For sure, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, so we can remain cool and
comfortable and we don't have tosmell Kara, she's going to be
(12:17):
she's going to have deodorant.
We're going to be in the airconditioning.
Yeah, I mean whatever you know.
You know she's okay with it.
What is the worst smell?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Is it BO or is it like burping?
I'm not a BO fan.
A BO smells very sour yeah nota fan.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, okay, our topic of the day we are doing our
Wednesday night classes.
They're back in session.
So every Wednesday night wehave three options for adults in
the life of our church toattend.
There is a class ondiscipleship and having groups
of individuals that arediscipling one another.
Led by Pastor Darren, I'm doinga class on Baptist history so
(12:55):
who are all these Baptists andwhere do they come from?
And then there's a third class,the most attended class,
well-attended class, is PastorBob's class and it's the Seven
Churches of Revelation.
I want to go to your class.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I really do.
I would love to refresh onBaptist history.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, we talked about John of Leiden or Jan.
Come on now, it's well attended, thank you.
It's Jan of Leiden, who was anAnabaptist I mean truly a cult
leader in Münster, germany, andwe talked about how he had 15
wives, wore a gold medallionthat said he was the king of
(13:32):
righteousness and proclaimed tonot only be the king of Moonstar
but the messianic king ofJerusalem.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Wild.
I'm going to pass on the 15wives, but I'll take the gold
chain.
The gold chain.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
The king of righteousness, but because of
his anarchy and trying to set upa theocratic state, the
Catholic Church did not like ittook over the country from him
and then paraded him around on achain.
So things did not go well forJan Bokkelsen.
In fact, I think that Moonstraexperiment only lasted like a
year, and so it was veryshort-lived.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
See, these are the kind of little historical
tidbits that are fun to learn.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
There are some fun things.
Yeah, these are the kind oflittle historical tidbits that
are fun to learn.
There are some fun things.
Yeah, there are also thingslike Luther had.
While we have a great debt toLuther for the reforms that he
made, he also had a great mouthon him.
And so he would make somecomments here and there that are
quite funny, some of which wehave to substitute with
different words, so we'll talk alittle bit about that last
(14:33):
night as well.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Cool See that's what I would.
I get to hear myself teach allthe time.
I'd love to come sit on one ofyour classes.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Do you know the phrase where Luther had?
I can't remember the cardinal'sname, but Luther had been
confronted by the CatholicChurch and he had to stand
before a cardinal.
This is before the Diet ofWorms, and at the time the
Gutenberg Press had been around,and so not only were books
being copied at a rapid rate,but they were able to even do
(15:05):
cartoons and publications veryquickly, and so there were
certain things that Luther hadsaid that were comical and were
put into comic strips, and aftera certain meeting with a
cardinal that was public, hesaid that that cardinal was
about as fit to handle thatmeeting as a donkey would be to
(15:27):
play a harp, and so a picture ofa donkey with that quote was
circulating around Germany.
So you know, it's verypicturesque, sounds very much
like Luther.
Yeah, all right, hey, so wewant to talk about the seven
churches of Revelation.
Now when you say Revelation,people's eyes open wide and
(15:48):
their ears perk up.
What is happening today?
Right, years per cup.
What is happening today?
Right, but the seven churchesof Revelation in the first three
chapters primarily chapter twoand chapter three were the
initial recipients of the letter.
Let's talk about them in thispodcast.
So I already just kind of saida little bit about seven
(16:08):
churches, but let's back up alittle bit the book of
Revelation as a whole.
What are we talking about inthe book of Revelation?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
We're talking about God peeling back the curtain and
revealing to his servant John,who is on the island of Patmos.
Is this the disciple?
This is the disciple whom Jesusloved?
That John, not John the Baptist, is it?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
weird that he wrote that he was so well loved and a
better writer than Peter in hisown gospel.
He's the humble guy who saysI'm faster than you.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
That's right.
So he's on the island.
It's a penal colony.
He's there because they'vetried to kill him and can't kill
him.
So they've exiled him to thisisland.
It's at the end of his earthlylife.
He's looking back over his lifein ministry, his life with
Christ, all the churches that heplanted and pastored, and now
(17:03):
he has no control over it andhe's probably sitting there
wondering how the church isdoing.
There's great persecutionthat's broken out.
There is those that are cominginto the church trying to cause
harm within the church, and sohe's struggling and God just
kind of peels back the curtainof heaven and says let me just
give you a revelation, arevealing, a prophetic vision, a
(17:27):
prophetic vision of what'sgoing on right now, what has
happened and what's going totake place.
So that's, in a nutshell, whatRevelation is.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
So those who take the later date of the writing of
Revelation, which I think weprobably both do.
Jerusalem has fallen, thechurch has been scattered and is
alive and well, but evading alot of persecution.
And well, but evading a lot ofpersecution.
The Roman emperors are, at thatpoint in time, if we're looking
(18:00):
at, like 80, 90, are startingto target Christians in ways
that they may have seen them asa nuisance before.
And so John is writing thisletter.
He addresses it to sevendifferent churches in Asia Minor
, he's told to address it tothese particular seven churches,
who I believe are actualchurches.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
That's probably one of the next things you're going
to talk about there.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
In that day they were , they were seven actual
churches in those cities along acommon trade route.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So these were letters that God said write these
things and send it to the angel,the messenger of this
particular church.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, so in the vision of the Son of man in
chapter one, if I'm not mistaken, we've got the lampstands.
The churches are the lampstands.
It's symbolic of the light ofthe world right Of Christ.
They're holding the light ofthe world right of Christ,
holding the light of Christ tothe world that they live in, and
(18:57):
Christ is walking amongst thelampstands.
He is present with his people,even though they're surviving
and thriving in persecution.
This letter would have beensent with like a courier.
How did John get this letter tothese churches?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So he's on an island.
Yeah, so he's on an island, soit has to be taken like a
courier.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
How did, how did?
How did john get this?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
letter to these churches.
So he's on an island, yeah, sohe's on an island, so it has to
be taken through a courier.
So a courier is probably takingthese letters to the churches,
if not even a circular concept.
So the church that was.
The letter written to ephesuswas probably read there, then
taken to smyrna and they read itas well.
But they were, the letters werespecifically written to those
church, individual churches.
So, uh, they were taken by someform of a courier to take them.
Um, as john is receiving thisvision from god, he hears a
(19:44):
voice, he turns to see the voice.
He then gives the depiction ofwhat christ looks like and, as
you said, he's standing amongstthese seven lampstands.
We don't have to guess whatthose seven lampstands are.
It's told in chapter one thatthey are the churches, but it
also says he's holding in hishand the seven stars or the
seven messengers, the sevenangels, who?
(20:05):
Folks interpret thatdifferently.
Some think those are literallyheavenly angels and each church
has an angel.
Some think they're differentbeings.
I think they represent themessenger, the pastor of the of
those churches.
So he's writing this and saying, okay, write what you hear,
what you see, to the church inEphesus, right to the church in
(20:26):
Pergamum right this.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, you didn't.
You didn't ask what I think ofthe.
I'm kidding.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I assumed you think correctly, like I do.
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So once we get to the writing to each individual
church, it seems Okay.
So in the New Testament youhave, like, philippians and
Colossians and Ephesians andthese are letters written by
Paul to specific churches thechurch at Ephesus, the church at
Philippi, the church atColossians and Ephesians.
(20:58):
And these are letters writtenby Paul to specific churches the
church at Ephesus, the churchat Philippi, the church at
Colossae.
This particular letter, whereJohn was told to write what he
had seen and what the Lordrevealed to him, is written to
seven different churches, andthose churches, just like the
other letters in the NewTestament, all have specific
issues, are doing some thingswell and doing some things that
Not so well.
Help us see how this book isone story, one vision, but for
(21:27):
seven churches.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Sure.
So each of these churches hasparticular issues.
They have individual membersthere, they're in locations that
are different from one another,and so as we read the letters,
we have to see a few things.
One we have to put it in itscultural context, so we need to
(21:49):
learn about the cities thatthey're living in.
So the church in Ephesus isfacing some different things
than the church in Smyrna.
The church in Smyrna is facingdifferent things than the church
in Philadelphia.
We can also see if there is ahistory of how the church
started in the Bible.
Church of Ephesus.
We can read Acts, chapter 19,and see how that church started.
Church in Smyrna the only thingwe know about the church in
(22:11):
Smyrna is written right here inRevelation, chapter 2.
Each of the letters has acommon pattern, so they're very
similar, even though they'redifferent in what they say.
They're similar so there'salways a commendation.
Well, first it starts with apicture of Christ.
Each letter starts with avision of Christ, um, which
(22:33):
comes from the prologue inchapter one of John's vision.
So there's a, there's a pictureof Christ in each one that
speaks to those individualchurches.
For instance, smyrna, a churchthat's being persecuted, a
church where church members aregoing to jail and dying.
The vision of Christ is the onewho was dead and is now alive,
the first and the last, the onewho was here at the beginning
(22:53):
and will be here at the end, theone who was killed and is now
alive.
That's going to speak to thosethat are being persecuted, is
killed and is now alive.
That's going to speak to thosethat are being persecuted.
So there's a picture of Christ.
Then there is a commendation.
Jesus says you're doing thiswell to five of the seven
churches.
Sardis and Laodicea are theonly two that don't receive a
commendation.
He doesn't tell them they'redoing anything well.
(23:15):
There's then condemnation.
You've done this well, but Ihave this against you and
against five of the sevenchurches.
There's a condom datecondemnation.
Smyrna is not condemned, nor isPhiladelphia.
They don't receive commendationcondom condemnation.
Then there is a correction forthose who have been condemned.
(23:38):
Jesus said this is what you'vedone wrong.
Therefore, do this to correctit.
There's a correction For thechurches that don't receive a
condemnation.
There is a continuationContinue to do these things.
And then there is a commitment.
Christ makes a promise To himwho overcomes, I will give the
crown of life.
(23:58):
So there is a promise to eachor a commitment to each one, so
there's a common pattern therethat we can see.
Each one ends in the exact sameway.
Let him who has ear hear whatthe Spirit says to the churches
plural.
So it's not just what theSpirit says to this particular
church, but you need to knowwhat it says to all the churches
.
So while I think these wereletters written to particular
(24:21):
churches in that particular time, I think they speak to the
church today as a whole and wecan learn from each of them.
Some would say that theserepresent churches in different
periods of time or differentstages that the church has gone
through, and that may or may notbe true.
I tend to think that these areletters written to individual
churches that speak as a wholeto the church today.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, and I think we can see, I mean, if we take this
to be like, in some ways, aletter from John as a pastor or
leader over some of thesechurches, who had experience
with these churches, when Paulwrites his letter to the church
in Ephesus, that book of theBible preached by pastors today
(25:07):
was not directly written to us,but was certainly written for
the church at all times and allplaces.
Same is true of these sevenchurches.
They are struggling with thingsthat we would struggle with
today, maybe not specific to,you know, temple prostitutes,
but surely to lust right.
Maybe not specific to ways inwhich they could, you know, gain
(25:32):
money or authority, but surelyto greed and a hunger for power.
So there are general you eachone of the letters, each one of
the specific addresses to thechurches.
I think you mentioned somethingthere that I just want to put my
(25:53):
finger on, when you said thatit gives a picture of Christ.
Every time you know to thechurch at Ephesus, be reminded
of Christ, who is blank.
You also mentioned that thatcoordinates with the
commendation or the condemnationhow pastoral of John right.
(26:16):
When we, as pastors, might sitdown in our office and we talk
about the Lord to someonestruggling with guilt over their
sin or with a hunger for theirsin.
We would remind them of the Godwho is a judge in one case, but
in another case of the God whois a gracious Savior In the
(26:40):
other case.
Right, both are true.
It takes a pastor to know whatreminder needs to be given to a
particular person, and so howpastoral are these letters
John's thinking through?
God is the great judge, god isthe merciful Savior, god is the
Father who does not leave younor forsake you, and he does
this kind of work in each churchbecause of the predicament or
(27:03):
problem that they're dealingwith each one.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
He points them to Jesus in some way he points them
to Jesus, which is really whatRevelation is, really what all
the Bible is but Revelation.
If we get caught up in all theeschatology and all the
symbolism in the book ofRevelation and we don't see
Jesus, we miss the point.
Jesus is the point ofRevelation.
You and we don't see Jesus, wemiss the point.
Jesus is the point ofRevelation.
You know the coming king whowill reign and rule.
We miss the point if we missJesus.
(27:26):
And so he points them, everyone of the churches, he points
straight to Jesus.
So very pastoral.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
The call to conquer at the end is a call to continue
in the faith by the power ofthe Spirit, so that you might
receive the crown of life oreternity with Christ forever.
He might word it differently,but the hope is.
Christ is with you.
Be faithful to Christ.
He will return for you right.
No matter what you go through,continue to be faithful.
Anything you want to point outMaybe you want to say something
(27:56):
about Ephesus or Laodicea,anything about any specific
church.
You want to say something aboutEphesus or Laodicea, anything
about any specific church youwant to point out.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
There's something in each one of them for us that we
can learn.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Some of them were like Ephesus, some of them are
opposites of one another, sure,so Ephesus, for example, seemed
to be like I use terms when Ipreach to the seven churches the
doctrinal church on defense,almost kind of like losing their
love for God and man.
But man, they've got theirdoctrine right, right, and so,
(28:26):
um, they've become calloused,maybe because of, um, the need
to consistently fight off poordoctrine.
Maybe the book of Acts kind ofhints toward that, um, and then
you've got a church like was itThyatira?
That was just super tolerant,right, allowing different
(28:50):
teaching to come in and allowingdifferent practices to continue
in the life of their members,and so one was almost too
intolerant, right of theunbelieving people coming in, it
seems like Ephesus, and one wastoo tolerant of well, here's a
platform for you which could besaid of churches today.
One might lean a little bit tooon the.
(29:11):
This is our church, our holyhuddle.
Another church might say who'sin charge?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, there's the contrast there between a church
that um is faithful to doctrinalfidelity I've just been
redundant, but they've.
They've been faithful todoctrine and yet he says I have
this against you.
You've left your first love, uhwhereas Thyatira, you guys are
tolerating sin and you're notstanding up for doctrinal.
You may be loving people, butyou're not really loving them
(29:39):
because you're not standing upfor doctrinal integrity.
So yeah, they're allinteresting.
Smyrna is a church where hesays you have nothing.
I see the persecution, I seethat they've taken everything
from you, yet you're rich.
And then to oh, is it Laodiceathat he says you guys think
you're wealthy, but that's notLaodicea, sardis, sardis yeah,
(30:02):
sardis was the nominal church.
Yeah, he says you think you haveeverything, but you're nothing.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
When I taught on these, I thought of different
churches of today and maybeover-characterizing different
churches, but Sardis was thechurch that had a really big
building, a really big fountainin the front.
Their name was everywhere right, they were a good branded
church, which none of those arebad things.
The problem was what wasvisible was not what was
accurate.
Laodicea, it's the church thatprobably receives the strongest
(30:32):
rebuke, because Laodicea is thechurch that makes Jesus want to
puke.
He says I'll spit you out of mymouth.
Made his stomach sick.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, so just briefly , Ephesus is the church that
worked hard, but they lost theirlove.
They left their love.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
They intentionally left love.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Smyrna is the church that is persecuted and yet
remained faithful in everything.
Pergamum is the worldly church.
They let the outside world comein.
Thyatira is the church thattrivialized sin those that came
in and they didn't address sin.
Sardis is the church thatlooked alive on the outside but
(31:13):
they're dead on the inside.
The Holy Spirit's not present.
Philadelphia is a church thathas an open door.
They are at an open door totake the gospel.
And then Laodicea is the churchthat didn't think they needed
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Was Philadelphia, the really small church, like the
small group but faithful.
Maybe I think that wasPhiladelphia that, or it was one
of the two, smyrna orPhiladelphia, really small but
like the faithful few.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I think that was.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Philadelphia, I can't remember.
They were patient, they wereenduring, they'd been persecuted
, yeah, yeah.
So, as you think of just thelandscape of the church in
America, which is a pretty broadbrush, there are ways in which
any of these letters couldrepresent any churches in
America are ways in which any ofthese letters could represent
any churches in America.
What's one that you think justis a message needed for the
(32:06):
church in America?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I think they all are.
Honestly, I mean, I don't knowthat I can just say, okay, the
church in America, the church inWestern culture.
I think we all need to look atour own churches and say where
do we fit here?
Ephesus, the church that wasthe loveless church.
You've left your love.
When Paul wrote to that church40 years earlier, he commended
(32:27):
them for their love.
He says I've heard about theway I praise God for the way
you've loved the saints.
They were known for their love.
Something happened in 40 yearswhere now, when Christ writes to
that church, he says you guysdon't have any love, you've
become Pharisees, you've becomelegalists.
And so I think we all, asindividuals and as churches, we
(32:47):
have to examine and say okay,are we going down a path of
emphasis here?
Are we putting up a facade ofeverything's great and we've got
these wonderful ministries andour buildings look great, but
there's no power in this place?
You know I, so to say, thechurch in America is one of
these.
(33:08):
I don't know that I can pinpointone.
I think we all just have to say, okay, let's be honest and look
at our own lives.
Are we trivializing sin?
Are we over emphasizingdoctrine above love or love
above doctrine, rather thanfinding that balance?
Um, yeah, do we recognize theopen door that is before us to
take the gospel?
(33:28):
So I, yeah I don't know if I'manswering your question.
No, I think so.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I think I think too, um, and this is maybe a
different stream of aconversation I think sometimes
when we read this, what we thinkis most important of the things
that God commends, we see thatas the better church if that
makes sense.
Oh man, can you believe thechurch at Thyatira let all that
(33:52):
false teaching in Ephesus reallyhad it right?
It's like, okay, well, hold on.
Thyatira is commended for theirlove.
So let's be honest, love isimportant.
Jesus sees them as a lovingchurch.
But let's also see the factthat Ephesus, as great as you
might think they are, they didnot love.
That's a serious problem, andso we want to take all of the
(34:15):
commendations of all of thechurches for what they are and
say, okay, this is what Jesuswants.
He doesn't prefer necessarilyEphesus over Thyatira.
He prefers doctrinal fidelityand genuine love.
So we want to take all thecommendations and then follow
Jesus in his call to conquer orovercome, be faithful and endure
(34:39):
, and we need to take all of thecondemnations as warnings to do
self-evaluation.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
To look inwardly, are we doing what these churches
were guilty of doing?
Yeah, if Jesus were to write aneighth letter to the First
Baptist Church of Tampa, whatwould be in it?
What would he commend us forand what would he condemn us for
?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, that's good, that's good.
Any other thoughts?
Um, why?
Why should someone take time tostudy the seven churches of?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
revelation.
Cause Jesus wrote the lettersand put them in the Bible?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
because it's in the Bible because it's there?
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Uh, no, because that is true, but because it is a.
In many ways it is a cautionarytale, but it's also a
revelation that Jesus stillcares about his church.
He is still walking amongst thelampstands, he is still holding
the messengers in his hands.
He's not absent, he cares, hesees.
So he sees what's going on.
Nothing that happens to thechurch goes without God's notice
(35:34):
.
He cares about what takes place, but it also means he's paying
attention, he's watching, andthat should teach us okay, this
is his church, it's not ourchurch.
He died for it, he cares for it.
So how are we being goodstewards of the church, not just
as pastors, but as members of achurch?
How are we stewarding thatwhich God gave us?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Because Christ cares, yeah that which God gave us,
because Christ cares.
Yeah, the point at which youknow the point of each of these
letters is Jesus desires hischurch to endure, to conquer, to
be with him on the day that hereturns.
So you want to know how to dothat.
Here's a letter.
Here's a letter.
Right, all right?
Well, thanks for listening ineverybody.
Any thoughts, comments,questions?
(36:17):
Concerns 17 days away until youget married, kara.
So exciting.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
All right.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, I'm excited If you're not a part of a Wednesday
night class and you're thinkingyou know Baptist history really
, really, really, really, reallysounds fun, but it's just not
my time to study Baptist history.
Make sure that you go and learnmore about each individual
church, the seven churches ofrevelation on Wednesday nights
called love letters, I believe,uh sure.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, I think that's what we called it this time.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
All right, all right.
Well, if that's it, I want topress the music this time.
Here we go.
See you later, just kidding.
Bye, have a great time, justkidding.
Bye, have a great time.
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