Season 2 Episode 44: On Baptist History

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Do you enjoy learning about history? If you do, this episode of Unsexy Church is for you! If you don't... good luck <3

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Unsexy
Church Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hello everybody, how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:11):
We've got new people in the room.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yes, we do Well, a new person in the room, one
specifically.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
So you're on a mic again.
Kara, welcome back.
Yay, you're not always going tobe on a mic necessarily.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Just kidding, we'd love to have you on a mic.
So you're on the mic and wealso have drum roll please.
I don't know if I have a drumroll on here, it can be it, okay
jordan, jock, yeah, he's herein the room, so jordan's helping
you with some video things uh,here in our church, which is

(00:41):
incredible so excited for that Ijust saw the video that he did
for your wedding.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
So sweet, so amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hired JSJ production.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Whoever was talking in the beginning of that video,
like, like actually talking.
Oh my gosh, wow, what a goodword.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, what a, what a?
You know what?
He deserves $10.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
That guy, whoever that was- I listened, I listened
to that and I was like that'smy voice.
Yeah, that was cool, that wasvery cool.
Did you go and listen to theaudio after the wedding?
I would have been like talkingto my wife for a while before.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I turned off the light.
I heard a couple messages yousent me.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
I may have went to the bathroom with it still on
and not noticed it.
I apologize.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
No problem, heard everything, everything.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Sorry, I probably was like man, I was nervous.
I don't know if that wentreally well.
Did it go well, you?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
probably.
Let me say that a couple oftimes.
Yeah, it was awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
You're married now.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
You are Miss Smith.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yes, which?

Speaker 1 (01:35):
will take some getting used to Miss Smith.
My father's apologize it andsilence my cell phone.
Can I go and just answer thisphone call?
Go for it, here we go hey dad,just fyi, if you did not but
dial me, you are on a podcastright now.
Hello, yeah, it was about dial.

(02:04):
Uh, that happens fairlyfrequently, he, uh, so I know
why he but dialed me, becausewe're on the phone.
Last night and it's always likethe person you most recently
talked to, and last night hebroke his hand oh my goodness he
was fixing something on his carand he was.
he took off the hydraulics ofthe like the the back lift of
the trunk.

(02:25):
There we go, highlander, it's aToyota Highlander.
It lifted up, it's myunderstanding.
They took the hydraulics offand had like a wood board
keeping the heavy door that youdon't really think is all that
heavy because of hydraulics.
And the wood slipped and hishand went under the door and
broke his hand.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
A moment of silence for Trent's father and his
broken hand.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, I'm on the phone with him, my mom texted me
and said my dad is veryaccident prone.
He's a hard-working guy, does anumber of different things and
just is super accident prone.
Like I think two years ago hefell off a ladder but the
christmas lights up and got realhurt and just recently cut off
a part of his finger using hissaw.
Yeah, like just the tip of it.
And then, uh, so mom justtexted me and said dad broke his

(03:08):
hand and so I called them.
I was like what did you do?
So he's like oh yeah, it hurts.
Yeah, I did this.
Like what in the world you knowyou're crazy.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
So, um, yeah, silly one time jayden was camping with
his friends and he took an axeand he was cutting wood in the
dark.
I think I'm not really sure hewas doing something and he was
cutting wood in the dark.
I think I'm not really sure hewas doing something crazy and he
busted his knuckle full, openoh wow, like that, goodness.
Yeah, now he has a thickyknuckle on his left hand.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
This is a random memory that just popped up in my
head.
My dad was a tennis coach for 20to 25 plus years for West
Plains High School in SouthernMissouri and, like any other
high school, west Plains wouldhave foreign exchange students
here and there, right, well, onetime he had a foreign exchange
student.
There was a great tennis player, real tall guy, uh, somewhere
in Europe, from somewhere inEurope.
And I remember being at mydad's tennis practice and the
tennis court had light poles,big metal light poles in the

(04:07):
middle of the tennis court.
So you got, like you know, yougot six courts and the first
three and the second three aredivided by two big light poles
to light up the tennis courtsand they were running back and
forth on the tennis courts andhe was like laughing and talking
to someone else and ran juststraight into a metal pole and I
remember being there as like aI don don't know a third grader
or fourth grader and he's likelaying on the ground, this like

(04:29):
six foot five guy, like tallerthan every other guy going.
Oh, that hurt and then like a,it was a big enough like gash on
his forehead.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Who was this?

Speaker 1 (04:37):
a foreign exchange student who played tennis in a
big old gash on his head and theambulance had to be called.
This was a big enough.
That's no fun.
So yeah, I don't know why Ithought of that.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, I think we're just talking about injuries for
my dad injuries and then Jadeninjuries.
Speaking of injuries, slashillnesses.
Where's, where's pastor Bobtoday?
Some people may be wondering.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Bob is not feeling good today.
He got sick, and so he's backhome.
My wife is home sick today.
Um, so it is the season of ofsickness.
It really is.
We went to knoxville, came backjust got real sick, got better,
got sick again.
Um, the people we were with gotsick.
The people who came with uswere sick before they came

(05:20):
passing it along there, I'm notlooking forward to getting sick.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, I think when I don't know if cold weather
actually brings sickness, butpeople get sick in the changing
of the season, I think becausepeople are all huddled together
like penguins you know what Imean Trying to stay warm in the
cold weather, and then they allsneeze on each other.
That's my hypothesis.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Did you know, like penguins get married and like
stay married for life.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Oh, that's a thing like penguins are in biblical
marriages, that's great.
Well, I don't know that theyhave a christ in his church, but
they they.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
So you know, animals sometimes are like bunnies,
right and, but penguins are not.
They're like penguins, they'remarried, they have a partner for
life that's so precious therewas a movie that came out about
penguins when I was in middleschool.
Well, that probably came outaround then and also probably
came out around then surf's upbut uh, it was about.

(06:14):
It was almost like a nationalgeographic movie and it was like
was it with benedictcumberbatch?

Speaker 2 (06:19):
I don't know.
It was before benedictcumberbatch.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I don't know.
It was before BenedictCumberbatch got really popular,
I think, but it was called theMarch of the Penguins.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Oh, March of the Penguins.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, and it was very well known, and typically you
don't have documentaries aboutanimals.
That was when you were inmiddle school.
I don't know.
I was in account in 2005.
Yeah, that would have beenmiddle school.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Wow, you're so old.
I would have been middle school.
Wow, you're so old, Trent Iwould have been a young middle
schooler.
I was four years old.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
I would have been probably a fifth grader, that's
crazy.
I graduated eighth grade in2007.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
So it depends on where it landed.
I was literally six years old.
See, I can make the old jokesnow.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
You can.
That's pretty cool.
So I would have been sixthgrade um unless I was in.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, sixth grade probably imagine being a
millennial I know millennialsare the worst.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Right, yeah, couldn't be me.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Hey, trent, I have a question for you.
Okay, not a question, Iactually have a fact.
This is a fact.
Did you?
Did you know that baptists weresome of the earliest proponents
of potluck dinners in churches?

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I did not know that I've been teaching a Baptist
history class.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Did you know that aspect of Baptist history that
does not surprise me.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Does it say when they began originating?

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Let me ask Chat GBC.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
So I don't know if there's a date you're going to
find on that, but um, so I'lltell you two random facts.
Um, the first fact aboutpotluck dinners is it was very
common in southern baptistchurches to once a month, once a
year, almost every sunday, andsome uh to have a potluck after
worship service so they wouldgather for food after they would

(08:04):
sing and pray and study theword.
So I served a small countrychurch in southwest Missouri for
about three years as a youngpastor and once a month we'd
have a potluck.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Once a month?
Mm-hmm, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Now here's the second fact.
Amazing.
Now here's the second fact.
In Nashville, the SouthernBaptist Convention in 2020,
let's see 2024 was where were wejust at Indianapolis?
2023 was New Orleans, 2022 wasAnaheim.
So in 2021, in Nashville, therewas a person who came up to a
mic and made a motion, and theirmotion was to add to the SBC

(08:43):
calendar, the calendar, that46,000 churches can see a
national potluck Sunday.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Oh, yeah, wait, why did it not get passed?
I don't know if it got passedor not, can we do that?
But here's the deal.
Can we put it back?
Why do we?

Speaker 1 (08:58):
need that on a national calendar.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Either do it or don't do it.
It's a part of our churchhistory, trent, it's who we are
Apparently.
It is a part of our churchhistory.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
But you know again, like sure, I just don't know
that that's worthy of.
There's limited time in aSouthern Baptist convention to
make motions, some of which arevery important motions, some of
which are about potlucks.
And you know I'm all for havinga national potluck day, but I

(09:27):
don't know that yet needs totake convention time, because I
think any autonomous church canchoose when they eat or not.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think it should be mandatory Sure.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
We gather for missions and evangelism and
we're spending five minutes ofour two days on making sure we
eat all the same day in everychurch.
I'm pro-potluck.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, pro-potluck, but everyone decides when they
potluck.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
But I don't necessarily need a mandatory
date to tell every other churchwhen they should eat together.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Okay, yeah, that's pretty valid.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
I guess Sure.
So did you find anything whenit originated?
Did you find anything when itoriginated?

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh, it says the 19th and early 20th centuries.
Potlucks were especiallyembraced by churches, including
Baptist congregations, as a wayto foster community and share
food during gatherings.
That sounds like Chachi, but hewrote it.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
But yeah, 19th century, 19th and early 20th
century.
So sometime in the 1800sBaptists were eating some food
together and the 1800s is whenthe Southern Baptist Convention
was found.
The first national conventionwas found in the beginning of
the 1800s, southern BaptistConvention in the middle of the
1800s.
So when they started conveningthey started eating.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I was a part of a Vietnamese Baptist church in
Orlando, okay, and I think wealso had potlucks.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Southern Baptists.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I Vietnamese Baptist church in Orlando, okay, and I
think we also had potlucks,southern Baptist, I'm not sure.
Actually it was at least aBaptist church.
I'm not really sure if it was aSouthern Baptist church.
I don't think it was.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I don't think it was, but we also had potluck dinners
.
That's cool.
I think it was at.
It seemed like it was often so,at least maybe like twice a
month.
Here's the thing about potluckdinners.
I'm going to go on recordsaying this in the podcast and
I'm probably going to feel badfor saying it.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
You can't eat everyone's house.
Is that what you're saying?
You know, there's just somepeople's cooking that isn't as
good as other people's cooking.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Say it, say it, trent , I can say that.
Tell us how you feel.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Well, so I can say that who are?

Speaker 2 (11:19):
you thinking of specifically?

Speaker 1 (11:21):
We don't have potlucks like that.
Here.
We have chili dinners and, yes,there's people that are really
talented with chili it's hard tomake a chili bad but we don't
really have potlucks.
But I have been in churcheswhere Call them out.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
I have been in churches wherethere's just food.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
You're like I think I'm'm gonna skip that crock pot
and that's.
With all the love for them inthe world, um, they're just,
they're not culinary experts andum, yeah, yeah, I just need to
stop there, wow.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, If you've ever.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
I've had squirrel stew at a potluck Squirrel stew.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
I've had squirrel stew at a potluck from Missouri.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
So they eat squirrel.
Not everybody does.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
If you've ever invited Trent to your potluck
dinner, you should ask him,worried, if you're worth your
rank on the scale.
Yeah, because he judges hard onhis potlucks.
I don't think they're listeningto the podcast.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
But squirrel stew.
I've had uh deer, very common.
Um uh, I've had frog legs outof potluck uh, I.
So one thing that is, uh is asomewhat common potluck dish, is

(12:43):
what's called Rocky Mountainoysters, and I will let the
audience Google what that is,because I am not going to say
what it is on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
I think I've heard you and other gentlemen talk
about that and, yeah, I wouldprefer not to.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
So there's unique culinary items that come to a
potluck, is all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
You had those at a potluck.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
They were at a potluck.
I did not.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
That is one item of food I've never eaten, okay,
never eaten it before.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
Uh, it is those items .
That item is featured at um oneof one side of our family's
thanksgiving, and I've nevereaten it's jesse's family.
It's jesse's yeah, I said oneside of our family.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
So are you listening to this?

Speaker 1 (13:28):
all right, should we jump into the topic or?

Speaker 2 (13:30):
should we do this?
What do you think we shouldjump into the topic all?

Speaker 1 (13:32):
right, so we're going to try to talk about baptist
history yes, uh an attempt a fewweeks ago.
A couple weeks ago that westarted the discipleship classes
yeah, we had a conversationabout the seven churches of
revelation because Bob wasteaching.
Pastor Bob was teaching a classon the seven churches of
revelation.
Um, at the same time we offerdifferent classes Wednesday

(13:55):
nights, six, 30 to seven, 30.
Uh, pastor Darren has beenteaching a class on D groups or
discipleship groups, far awayfrom the mic.
Uh, and then I've been teachinga class on Baptist history.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, so exciting.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
So when Bob could not make the podcast time today due
to sickness, I suggest that wekeep the title, keep the topic,
Sorry, and you were like no,let's talk about something else.
And so I think I mentionedBaptist history and you're like
let's do that.
So, we're going to see how thisgoes.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
We, yeah.
So we're gonna see how thisgoes.
We'll see how it goes.
I think it'll be fine.
I don't know all the knowledgein the world trends, I do not.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
I'll just grill you on questions non-stop and you'll
just spit all your answers outfor the audience.
Have you ever studied history?
Not only is some quite a bit ofhistory biased in, you know,
people writing books and sharingwhat they want to share and
sharing what they don't want toshare, or capitalizing on a
person's life that they like andkeeping out a person's life
they don't like, but it's alsoso vast Like there's a lot of
things I don't know, so youmight ask a question and I'm
just going to say I don't knowOkay.

(14:52):
Or I'm pretty sure I rememberblank so and it'll be your take.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
So you'll just remember the characters that you
like in Baptist history andyou'll just tell us those.
So everything is biased here.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
You'll just tell us those.
So everything is biased here,folks.
Yeah, so it's very vast.
When I preach on a Sundaymorning, I'm not typically
preaching history.
There might be a moment I'mteaching on a brief moment of
history, right.
But there is a canon.
66 books are in the Bible, sothe canon is closed.

(15:26):
History is extremely vast andso it's hard to just kind of say
, oh there's this thing thathappened in history, also
knowing what every other personwas doing at that time right.
Only God is sovereign and canknow all people and know all
things.
So, my knowledge of history isseverely limited, significantly

(15:49):
limited.
So ask away about Baptisthistory.
Okay, baptist history, baptisthistory yeah, here we go All
right.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
So, Trent, we are all Baptists here in this room.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
We are members, so I'm going to say a lot of
comments.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
We are all Baptists in this room because we are
members of a local Baptistchurch.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Trent.
Where did all these Baptistscome from?

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, okay, so let's try to answer this from 30,000
feet.
Yes, okay, so let's try toanswer this from 30,000 feet.

(16:42):
So, for the first couplehundred years the primary, the
examples we see in the NewTestament.
And then, following theirconversion to Christ, they were
baptized.
Life of the church, most likely.

(17:05):
So Thomas Kidd would make thisargument, nathan Finn would make
this argument most likely dueto infant sickness or young
child sickness andinterpretation of the Bible.
They thought, well, we reallyneed to have our kids be
baptized at young ages, so thatthey are baptized before they
die and they would be welcomedgladly into heaven.

(17:27):
Just in case there's any reasonthey wouldn't be welcomed
gladly into heaven, let's goahead and baptize our infant or
our child.
There are other streams,probably at the same time,
arguing that baptism, like thePresbyterians would believe, was
the sign of the new covenant,like circumcision was the sign
of the old covenant, and so theywould, you know, kind of have

(17:49):
the argument well, baptism isthis sign of the covenant.
Well, over time, as the CatholicChurch evolved and grew, there
were some interesting thingsthat came up.
Theologically, the church wasgiven, or kind of held, the
power of not only interpretingthe Bible, but its traditions

(18:12):
were set on par with the Bible.
There was new traditions thatwere formed, new practices that
were formed, indulgences in the1800s where you could pay the
church, who had authority overpurgatory, so after you died,
you would go to purgatory for atime.
They would teach not in theBible, but they would teach you

(18:34):
to go to purgatory for a time sothat any purification that
still needed to happen beforeyou would enter heaven could
happen in purgatory.
And so, say, your parentsneeded to continue to be
purified after their deathbefore they would enter heaven.
You could pay the CatholicChurch an indulgence, a gift,

(18:55):
and they could, in other words,say, well, your grandma's no
longer in purgatory anymore, inquasi-hell, which is horrible.
I just want to go on record andsay that's.
That's horrible.
It's not only unbiblical,that's manipulation for money.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
We don't believe in that?

Speaker 1 (19:13):
No, no, no, no.
So that would be indulgences,that would be a purgatory.
There was also some otherthings, like paying for um
positions of power in the church, because the church and the
government got so intertwinedwith one another.
There's a reason I'm tellingyou all this.
So people would actually pay tobe in to be a priest or a

(19:36):
bishop, because they could.
Being one of those positionscame with privileges.
Being one of those positionscame with privileges, and so
they may not have beenChristians, but they wanted
power and they could pay someoneand they would get that
position of power Over time.

(19:57):
There was the ideas that youshould pray to Mary or venerate
saints.
Then you had the thousands, thethousands.
So you know, right after the900s, the thousands, there was
Pope Urban, because of the riseof the Muslim empire, encouraged
believing Catholics to go andkill Muslims, you know, to kind

(20:23):
of fend for the Holy Land, andhe said, basically, this would
be kind of like an indulgence,this would be a trip that you
would take that would earn youfavor in heaven.
So there's, just as theCatholic Church grew and became
so intertwined with thegovernment, when you mix
politics and theology, you getpolitics right.
When you mix the church and thegovernment, you oftentimes get

(20:46):
the government Um and uh, andthat's what happened.
So, that being said, there wasmovements that came about
throughout this medieval churchperiod.
Uh, you see, john Wycliffe andthe Lawlards.
John Wycliffe wanted to get theBible that was in Latin but not
the common language of the day,into the hands of people who
could read the Bible forthemselves.
We want people to have personalBibles, and so he made an

(21:09):
English translation of the LatinVulgate.
Then you had a guy named JohnHus with a copy of the Bible in
Bohemia that said, hey, this issome of these things indulgences
and people.
Supremacy, which means, likethe Pope, having so much power,
is not biblical.
So you started having, in theCatholic church, people saying,
oh, this isn't true, as theBible is available.

(21:29):
John Wycliffe played a hugepart in that.
And then, in 1517, you had aGerman monk named Martin Luther
who got access to a Bible andsaw the depravity of the papacy
in Rome.
He saw them with prostitutes.

(21:50):
He saw them asking forindulgences, praying on the poor
, for money to pay off debts forSt Peter's Basilica, and he
said, like, this is ungodly andwicked.
And so he came up with 95challenges to the theology of
the Roman Catholic Church,posted on the church door in
Wittenberg and was targetedbecause of that.

(22:12):
But his initial desire for aconversation about poor theology
ignited the Reformation.
So what Wycliffe and what JohnHus tried to do with smaller
groups like the Hussites and theLollards became widespread.
And here's why Because theprinting press had just been

(22:33):
made and so any kind ofdisagreement you could have that
would hold weight or holdpeople's attention could be put
out everywhere.
So the beginning of theprinting press, or the rise of
the printing press, it's likesocial media, it's like we're
going to cancel you right now.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
So came the reformation, the ref.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
So so, uh, you know, um, martin Luther didn't do
anything necessarily totallydifferent than Wycliffe or John
Huss, but he had the printingpress, and so his teachings and
his words spread abroad andother people held on to it, and
so the Reformation began.
So before the Catholic Churchowned the land, owned the
government, owned everything,and now you're starting to see

(23:13):
common uprising Right, and it'scoming because people have
access to the scriptures for thefirst time.
Priests had access to Latin.
Many of them couldn't even readLatin and they were teaching
the Bible.
Now you have the Bible in thecommon language for everybody to
Latin.
Many of them couldn't even readLatin and they were teaching
the Bible.
Now you have the Bible in thecommon language for everybody to
read.
So so then you have kind ofsome splits.
This is where we're going toget to Baptist history.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
I know this is a long answer.
I'm tracking.
I'm tracking.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
So then you had some splits.
You first have this groupcalled the Anabaptists, who get
access to Scripture.
In the 1500s the Anabaptistswas a term used for this group.
They didn't call themselvesAnabaptists, but Anabaptist
means like re-baptized,anabaptist, re-baptism.

(24:00):
So there were these Catholicswho had been baptized as infants
who in reading the scripturesrealized okay, I don't think
that's what baptism means or is.
You could remove original sin,not the Presbyterian form of

(24:21):
infant baptism, but you actuallyremove original sin by infant
baptism, which is not a biblicalteaching.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Wish I could do that.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
That's an easy way to deal with sin is to be dumped
right.
But Martin Luther would write aChristian life is a life of
repentance.
Yeah, okay.
So, in other words, going backto the story, anabaptists had
access to the scriptures andthey would argue infant baptism
was not biblical.
They would be scattered groups,some of them in the Netherlands

(24:50):
, in Switzerland, and they werecalled Anabaptists because they
were basically said they werecalled you rebaptizers.
Well, the Anabaptists, I don'tthink, are where we draw our
history from.
I think they did have somesimilarities with Baptists.
I think they're our distantcousins, they're not our fathers

(25:13):
and mothers of the faith.
Anabaptists sought to separatefrom the Catholic church which
you don't do that, you're goingto be persecuted.
If you do that right, they havethe power and they will use it.
And so if you're teachingsomething contrary, you're
committing an act of treason.
And so the Anabaptists werepacifists.

(25:35):
They didn't think you should beinvolved in government or war.
So they went farther thanpacifism Not only don't
participate in war, but don'tparticipate in the government.
Um, the Anabaptists were theearly church, fathers of the
Mennonites and the Amish.
Okay, the brethren movement.
Yeah, so they founded their ownsocieties with the scriptures

(25:57):
and practice believers baptism.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Many of them being rebaptized because they had been
baptized as Catholics.
However, they got a littlecrazy, some of them.
There's a story of theAnabaptist taking over Munster,
germany, and basically makingkind of like a commune.
Their leader was a guy namedJohn of Leiden.
He ran around naked andreceived revelations from God.

(26:21):
He would say they were violent.
They would forcibly baptizeLutherans.
So Lutherans in Germany fromthe German monk Martin Luther,
who had become Lutherans right,they would forcibly re-baptize
Lutherans or excommunicate them.
They had about one year of doingthis and then the Catholic
Church tortured them all so theygot rid of the Anabaptists.

(26:43):
So when the Baptists would formlater they would put at the top
of their doctrinal statementswe are not Anabaptists to
basically distance themselvesfrom that group.
We're almost to the part ofchurch history where this makes
sense.
So the Protestant Reformationturned into almost a war of
ideas In England.

(27:05):
As the Reformation made its wayto England there came a queen
named Elizabeth, and later James, who would be Protestants, and
they would find their own church, would found their own church
in England called the Church ofEngland, which is the Anglican
Church.
Okay, okay, this would be inthe 1600s.

(27:27):
Now, late 1500s, early 1600s,the Protestants were glad to not
be Roman Catholic in Englandbut thought the Anglican church
kept too much Catholicism, toomuch of its traditions and
practices and liturgy, form ofservices, and so they, anglicans

(27:50):
, are Protestants, though rightCorrect.
So the first Protestantdenomination in England was the
Anglican church, right.
But there were Protestants whothought I don't like the
Anglican church, the queendidn't Anglican Church, right.
But there were Protestants whothought, ah, I don't like the
Anglican Church.
The Queen didn't take it far.
Enough right, they didn'tremove them, they didn't reform
from the Catholic Church, enoughright.
And so you had the influence ofJohn Calvin's teaching at the

(28:11):
time, john Knox's teaching atthe time, peter Vermeeghly, a
number of different reformerswho had taught things that would
go counter to the Anglicanchurch, and so then you had
people wanting to pull from theAnglican church and you had
people wanting to purify theAnglican church.
Have you heard of the phrasePuritans before?
I have?

(28:32):
The Puritans are those thatwanted to purify the Anglican
church.
They were willing to stay, butit needed to be more pure.
Okay, john Owen, anglican,wanted to stay, but it thought
the church in England needed tobe more pure.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, make sense yeah .

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Then there were Protestants, so Protestant
Puritans in England, and thenProtestant Polars or Protestant
separatists, who would separatethemselves from the church and
say, no, we need to form a newchurch, totally different.
Anglican.
Is it's too far from beinghelped.
Okay, those are separatists,separatists.
They would congregate and bekicked out of England.
And there was a congregation inEngland that would be kicked

(29:14):
out that John Smith was a leaderin Pocahontas.
John Smith was a leader inPocahontas, john Smith was a
leader in, and that congregationwould be kicked out of England
and sent to the Netherlands.
The Netherlands.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
What did they do there?

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Amsterdam, or specifically Holland, and the
first Baptist church of Hollandwas formed.
When that congregation, kickedout of England, would have
access to the Bible.
With their access to the Bible,would be convinced of
believer's baptism and startpracticing it.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
So that is, those are the separationists.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
We are separatists.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
We are separatists, we are separatists, we are
separatists, but we aredifferent than a Baptist in that
we formed the, the capital BBaptist, were radical Puritans
in England separated.
So what you said?
You'd said Puritans, and thenyou said separate separatists.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, so they, we.
We came out of the Puritanmovement.
They were a lot of moreCatholic turned Anglican um who
didn't think Anglican went farenough after trying to purify it
, so they thought we need toseparate from the Church of
England.
They're not going to go farenough, they separated
themselves.
So they were radical Puritans.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Radical.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
Puritans.
Puritans can't fix it, we'vegot to form our own congregation
.
And then they got kicked outforming their own congregation
in England to Amsterdam.
Founded a church in Amsterdam.
There's three guys a part ofthat church John Robinson, john
Smith and Thomas Helwes.
Those names are important.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
So in that Puritan group there were the
separationists Separatists, yeah, Separatists.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Some of which got kicked out and Netherland had a
little bit more religiousliberty you could gather there
and not get in trouble and sothey formed their own church,
the First Church of Holland.
So I'm almost done answeringthis question, because this is
the beginning of Baptists.
But this is the point right.
Baptists are those that desireto align their lives with the

(31:17):
Bible over tradition and try torestore the early church
practice of believer's baptism.
They are trying to purify thechurch and thought we have to
separate from what's beenestablished in its practices to

(31:42):
be as close to the early churchunderstanding of the New
Testament.
And so that was Baptists.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
And is that also where the name comes from, then,
like alongside baptism?

Speaker 1 (31:54):
I assume.
So yeah, I don't have it onpaper, but yeah, Baptist is from
believers baptism.
So there's two key things youlearn about Baptist pretty early
.
Then Baptists don't likegovernmental control and
Baptists believe in believersbaptism and do not believe that
baptism before belief is rightor even should be considered

(32:18):
baptism is right or even shouldbe considered baptism.
So you have.
So I told you three guys.
John Smith kind of led thecongregation in Holland.
There was John Robinson whowould separate from John Smith
on an issue.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Pretty quickly what issue.
They separated a lot.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
That issue.
I know what Thomas Hell wasseparated on.
I think don't quote me on here.
I think John Robinson wasbecause of um was leadership.
I think he thought there shouldbe a senior pastor, um and John
Smith thought there should be aplurality of elders.
I think that was what theirsplit was.
Don't quote me on that.

(32:51):
I think that's right.
I don't know, I think it wasleadership issue, but John
Robinson's congregation would bethe pilgrim congregation.
Pilgrims.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
The pilgrims.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
So they were under John Robinson.
John Robinson got sick andnever made the trip on the
Mayflower, but that was hiscongregation.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
So coming from where, coming from?

Speaker 1 (33:10):
England and the Netherlands.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
England and the Netherlands.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, yeah yeah, so Thomas Helwes would separate
from John Smith.
Okay, are you ready?
Are you ready?
So Thomas Helwes would separatefrom John Smith?
Okay, are you ready?
Thomas Helwes was a lawyer,helped fund John Smith's
congregation, leaving Englandoriginally Remember they got
kicked out of England went tothe Netherlands.
And Thomas Helwes woulddisagree with John Smith,
because John Smith became anAnabaptist.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
All of a sudden.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yep.
All of a sudden Yep, he wasintroduced by the.
The Netherlands had Anabaptistsand they leased a location
owned by an Anabaptist and so hewould become an Anabaptist.
Thomas Helwes was like no,we're not Anabaptists, would
move back to England and foundthe first Baptist church of
England.
So then you got a Baptistchurch now in England and Thomas

(33:59):
Helwes would be, um, uh, thefirst Baptist pastor
congregation in England.
After being kicked out, and hewould be in a lot of trouble, he
would go to prison pretty quickbecause he went back to England
and he would write to the Kingand he would say you have no
power in churches and shouldn'tact like you do.
So he was the kind of thefather of religious liberty in

(34:22):
England.
That's pretty cool.
So Southern Baptists have inour articles of faith, our
Baptist faith and message, asection on religious liberty.
We have always been people whohave fought for religious
liberty, meaning the countriesshould not coerce Christianity.
You should not be considered aChristian because of where you

(34:45):
live.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
You should not be.
Christians should not be,christianity should not be.
You should not be coerced intoChristianity like, hey, convert
or you'll die.
Right, you should be convincedof Christianity.
Does that make sense?

(35:07):
So you're a Christian, notbecause of coercion, but because
of conversion.
That's essential to beingBaptists, because you cannot be
baptized and be considered aBaptist or take part in the
Lord's Supper or be part of acongregation until you're
baptized.
And you can't be baptizedunless you're a Christian.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
So we believe Baptists have always believed
that faith is personal, it's notlocational.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Are you saying, if I live in the South, that I'm not?
You can go to church, butyou're not necessarily a
Christian, not locational.
Are you saying, um, if I livein the South that I'm not?

Speaker 1 (35:39):
I'm not.
You can go to church, butyou're not necessarily a.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Christian.
I'm not a Baptist, just cause Ilive in the South.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Sure, it's.
Other Baptist churches are inPuerto Rico and Connecticut
anyway.
So, um, but uh, that that'sthat's really essential
Believers.
Baptism necessitates regeneratechurch and you can't be a
church member unless you're abeliever.
Yeah, and also because we'reseparatists by nature and
because we believe salvation ispersonal and to be a part of a
church you must be a believer.

(36:03):
We believe in religious liberty.
The state shouldn't coercefaith, can't coerce faith, and
so we would write and write andwrite about you can't make, you
shouldn't make this, uh thanthis, you know?
Uh, let me go on to say thiswhen, when can I go further in

(36:26):
history?

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Keep going.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Is this boring?
No, are you sure.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
We're good yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
You're a little bored , okay.
So, from, from England and alsosome from Amsterdam.
Uh, there there would bepilgrims that would land at Cape
Cod.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Plymouth.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Rock.
It's argued whether they landat Plymouth Rock or Cape Cod,
but they would form eventuallythe Massachusetts Bay Colony.
What's interesting aboutforming the Massachusetts Bay
Colony?
They formed kind of aProtestant colony, like one of
the first colonies we're goingto practice Protestantism.
Well, there was a guy JohnWinthrop met him in the past

(37:03):
there.
That might be wrong.
There was a guy named RogerWilliams.
Roger Williams was specificallya Baptist, not just an Anglican
or a Lutheran, and he said,like Thomas Helwes did, you
can't make people inMassachusetts Bay be Christians.
So he said, what they did inEngland you're just doing here.

(37:27):
And so he would beexcommunicated.
So the first person to beexcommunicated from the
Massachusetts Bay Colony was aBaptist.
He would move to Rhode Island,found the Rhode Island Bay
Colony and the Rhode Island BayColony or Rhode Island Colony
Bay.
Rhode Island Colony was basedupon religious liberty.
He would write and say youcan't coerce faith, people
should have the right to bewrong.

(37:48):
Now, he was a Baptist.
He was even a CalvinisticBaptist.
He had great theology, but hethought people should have the
right to have wrong theology,just shouldn't be considered a
Christian.
But he thought people shouldhave the right to have wrong
theology just shouldn't beconsidered a Christian, but they
should be able to live here.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
So his words about religious liberty a couple
hundred years later, a hundredyears later I don't know how
many years at that point, acouple hundred years later, a
little less than a couplehundred years would be used by
Thomas Jefferson.
And Thomas Jefferson wouldwrite about the separation of
church and state, merka, and hewould take it from Roger

(38:25):
Williams, a Baptistexcommunicated from the
Massachusetts Bay Colony.
And the idea of church andstate, often used as a weapon of
progressive ideals, was not tokeep the church out of the state
, the church should of the state, the church should influence
the state, but it was to keepthe state out of the church.
So the church should influencethe state, but the state should

(38:49):
not interfere with the church.
Baptists have always been aboutreligious liberty.
I told you a lot there.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
You did, you did, and I kind of want to take a step
back for a moment, because thequestion no, you're good.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
You're good.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
But, the Baptist.
That's the beginning of theBaptist.
Yeah, we got it, we got it.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
So the question was where did all these Baptists
come from?
And you started with theReformation.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Radical Puritans in England.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, Radical Puritans in England.
But you started with theReformation and then it was the
Anglican church in England.
Then you had the Sepseparatists.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Separatists.
Yeah yeah, separate, separate.
They separated from the churchof England.
Yes yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
And from the separatists came the first
congregationalists thecongregationalists.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
I didn't say that word earlier, but yeah,
congregationalists.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
All right.
And then from thecongregationalists came that
first Baptist church in inchurch in New Zealand or no, In?

Speaker 1 (39:37):
the Netherlands.
In the Netherlands, yeahspecifically Holland, but in the
Netherlands, and then afterthat church Geographically not
far from England, just acrosssome water.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, and then after that church was the first
Baptist church in England.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Thomas Helwes was frustrated and went back to
England with a congregation withlike 10 members.
So he was like a church plant,but an angry plant.
Adam first about his holland,uh, nottingham, I think, england
, so uh, and then he got trolledpretty fast yeah, got put in
prison and died in prison.
Yeah, amidst like the and hewrote to king charles and said

(40:12):
don't touch my church.
Your authority ends where thechurch door begins so the idea
was we are all on a level.
There's not be a SouthernBaptist life.
Right, is this the it's?
We're, we are historical.
Um, there should not behierarchy, a hierarchy over the
church.
When you walk into the churchdoors, we are even so, king
Charles, your authority endswhen you walk in a church door.

(40:35):
That's what he wrote yeah.
That's good, you can read it.
It's a treatise, I don't know.
It's some treatise by ThomasEllis.
It's a long title.
All their books and titles arelong and I can't remember what
it's called.
Something treatise on somethingin iniquity.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
I don't know Cool.
What is it In the separatistsand the Puritans?
Is that like during that phase?
I guess, of things is thatwhere, like Lutherans and
Methodists and Lutherans werealready around, lutherans were
already around.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, I don't know if there were a ton of Lutherans
in.
I mean, there probably werepeople that were influenced by
Lutheran England.
There definitely were.
But you've got you knowdifferent parts of Europe that
was.
You just have there's so manynames and movements to follow.
Luther ignited a lot of that.
The printing press helped a lotof that.
Different pastors withdifferent opinions continued

(41:28):
that.
So Luther and then Calvin, thena guy named Zwingli, zwingli,
zwingli.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Zwingli.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Zwingli.
Zwingli got a little crazy, butwe owe some ideas from Zwingli.
Luther had a view of the Lord'sSupper called Real Presence.
Calvin had a similar view, butnot the same view, and Zwingli
said, okay, no, this is notliterally the body and blood of
Christ.
These are symbols.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
And that would be the view of the Baptists.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
So Zwingli was okay.
No, this is not literally thebody and blood of Christ, these
are symbols and that would bethe view of the Baptists.
So Zwingli was an earlyreformer with that view.
Zwingli was from Switzerlandbut I think went into the
Netherlands.
So I think, or Germany, I don'tremember.
He is yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
That's a lot of people in a lot of places.
I feel like.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
So movement went crazy.
The kings and queens in englandeventually said we don't like
catholics anymore, we want to beprotestant.
And they basically said well,we don't know any other way of
being a christian other thanmaking this a governmental thing
.
And so anglicanism was formedand thomas cranmer was very
influential as like the firstanglican that wrote the book of
common prayer and stuff.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Oh he was like.
He was like the theologian forAnglicans.
Yeah, that's cool, justcommissioned by yeah.
I'm so glad the listeners ofour podcast have bigger brains
and are able to comprehend a lotmore of what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
No, I'm tracking generally.
You know what I mean.
I'm tracking generally, youknow what I mean.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
I'm tracking generally, but each of the
specific things and the specificpeople, I am having a little
bit of difficulty.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
So the Church of England is where it gets
difficult.
So the Church in the West isthe Roman Catholic Church, so
you don't really have EasternOrthodox, you have Catholic
Church in that part of the West.
And then England, the monarchy,was convinced of Protestantism
because of all of the work ofProtestantism ignited by Luther.
So they're like well, we'lljust make our own Protestant
nomination called Anglicanism,and it'll be a lot like

(43:16):
Catholicism where we'll controlit and people didn't like the
controlling part and thenthought they kept too much
Catholicism and so you hadPuritans in.
England and out of the Puritans.
They're like, well, they didn'tgo far enough, or not, that the
Puritans didn't go far enough,but the Puritans aren't going to
be able to do enough work here.
We're going to have to separatefrom the Church of England.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So I have another question foryou.
So you've mentioned a fewthings here, but this question
is what is unique about theBaptist understanding of the
faith?
And you've mentioned howBaptists think that we ought to
be able to.
You know, anyone's equal toeveryone else.
So, like the king is not overanyone, you know, it's just the

(43:55):
word of the Lord.
They value that over tradition.
So what are the other thingslike this that you could list
that are unique about Baptiststhere?

Speaker 1 (44:02):
are two main things.
Specifically Baptists, becausea lot of the other Protestant
thinkers and leaders believed alot about what we believe.
Justification by faith alone.
I mean Luther argued for thatright.
We're not Lutheran and so whatdistinguishes us from Lutherans
and the Congregationalists thatwere primarily Calvinistic
Congregationalists?

(44:22):
They didn't practiceanti-Baptism, so they're kind of
Presbyterians.
The things that differentiatedus were twofold, but they both
have a ramification.
Differentiated us were twofold,but they both have a
ramification.
So religious liberty, which theramification of that would be
local church autonomy, makesense.
So local churches makedecisions of local churches.

(44:44):
You don't tell me who my pastoris, or you hire a group above
us that doesn't know ourcongregation, doesn't tell us
who our pastor is.
We decide that, like there'searly church, early church, I
think John Smith wrote hey, weshould decide our pastors, not
someone who doesn't know ourchurch.
That was in writing in theearly 1600s.
Right, that's what we do.
That's really cool.
We're tied to the 1600s andthose ideas which I would argue

(45:08):
is 1 Timothy, 5.
So religious liberty,autonomous churches, keep the
state out of our church.
That's number one.
Number two believers baptism,which the ramification of that
is regenerate church membership.
You can't be a member of achurch unless you're a believer.

(45:29):
So to be a member on a roll,you must be a believer, and
specifically a baptized believer.
So to have access to the Lord'sSupper and to church decisions,
you must be a public believerin the Lord Jesus Christ born
again.
Yeah, so, religious churchliberty, which leads to church

(45:49):
autonomy, and then believersbaptism, which necessitates
regenerate church membership.
You have to have a new heart tobe a church member.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Yeah, yeah, and these aren't like new things.
These, like you said earlier,they're early church history.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Baptists would argue with their Bibles open.
This is what the early churchpracticed, so it's sometimes
funny when I'm going to say thison the podcast.
Say it, it's sometimes funnywhen Reformed denominations that
are not Baptists say that weare not Reformed, he's calling
you out.
Because we technically Reformedmore than they did.

(46:29):
So we went further than theydid on the issue of baptism and
religious liberty.
So we believe pretty much whatthey believe, except for we did
more.
They might say not for thepositive, but we went further,
pulling from Catholic practiceof religious hierarchy and

(46:50):
infant baptism.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, but the, the reformed denominations I guess
you would say like LutheranPresbyterian.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Calvinistic, calvinistic Lutheran.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Calvinistic.
Yeah, they also teach on, likethose, the doctrines of like
predestination or not butBaptists don't Depends, so
you're bringing up something.
Just curious Depends.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, no, this is great, right.
So I mean, you're bringing upCalvinism, which is obviously a
really big hot-button subject,but here's the truth.
We're talking about Baptisthistory.
In England there was not aconsensus on that.
There were Baptists that weremore influenced by John Calvin

(47:32):
and Baptists that were not asinfluenced by John Calvin, more
influenced by Zwingli or someoneelse like that.
So Baptists have always beensplit on that issue, always
Within the Southern BaptistConvention.
There is both Reformed Baptistsif they want to call themselves
that, or Calvinistic Baptists,and then more Arminian Baptists.
Arminian was just anotherleader that didn't like Calvin's
views on predestination.
So they would actually once theythis is good.

(47:55):
In the 1600s there was a momentin which the Baptist
congregations were given freedomto gather without threat and
there formed general Baptistsand particular Baptists.
So there were two differenttypes of Baptists in England

(48:15):
after Thomas Helwes.
General Baptists believed in amore Arminian view of theology,
more free will, less aboutpredestination.
Particular Baptists were moreCalvinistic in nature,
particular, particular Baptists.
So it should be said we'realready at 49 minutes so we're
going to have to conclude herepretty quick.

(48:36):
It should be said that theearliest Baptists in England
were General Baptists, the firstBaptist.
However, they died out prettyquick because there were some
issues with the Trinity withsome of those groups of General
Baptists.
So by the end of the 1600s,particular Baptists.
So by the end of the 1600sparticular Baptists were the
most popular Baptists.
They formed the 1689 LondonBaptist Confession.
They based it off theWestminster Confession in some

(48:58):
ways and so that would be thefirst Baptist confession and it
was reformed in nature.
When you get over to the UnitedStates, general Baptists were
not near as popular.
Particular Baptists wereeverywhere, and so the New
Hampshire Confession was anattempt to allow kind of more
general Baptist people in USBaptists.
So the US made a confession,kind of like the London Baptists

(49:21):
did.
This is what we believe.
It was also reformed in nature,particular in nature,
calvinistic in nature, but itwas written with less
particulars of the particularBaptist movement so that general
Bapt Baptist could be welcomed.
The Southern Baptist conventionwas formed by particular
Baptists.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Okay, and all aligning on the issues of
believers, baptism and religiousliberty, either particular or
general.
Yeah, pretty cool, yeah, prettycool stuff.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
So in the SBC there'll be differences of
opinion regarding particulargeneral, but we're aligned in
our Baptistic beliefs.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
I learned a lot about Baptists today.
Yeah, pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
You didn't ask about the Southern Baptist Convention,
so I'm going to say somethingreally fast.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Oh yeah, yeah, we're going to do that little.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
We're at 50 minutes.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
So maybe not.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
So no, we're fine.
So the Great Awakening happened, igniting religious fervor
through revivals GeorgeWhitefield, jonathan Edwards.
Baptists gained more groundthrough that process, or through
that time, in the 1700s and1800s.
The first national conventionor grouping of Baptists was

(50:29):
formed in 1814, called theTriennial Assembly.
So the first United StatesBaptist National Baptist
organization was the TriennialAssembly.
However, that was during thetime of slavery and there was
Baptists in the South that wereslave owners.
There were Baptists in theNorth that did not have slavery,

(50:49):
as you can imagine, baptists inthe South that were slave
owners, or Baptists in the Norththat did not like slavery, as
you can imagine.
A part of this TriennialAssembly an issue came up of
will we support?
Because the Baptists cametogether for the sake of mission
?
We're autonomous.
We don't want anybodycontrolling what we do.
Southern Baptist Conventions,all autonomous churches that no
one can technically control whatyou do.
You just come together for thesake of pooling money for

(51:09):
missions.
That's the reason the ThirdBaptist Convention exists.
No one tells us what to do.
We agree on a simple statementof faith and the only reason.
We're a convention.
We're not a denomination, we'rea convention of churches who
gather two days of the year tomake decisions for mission and
theological education.
I'm saying a lot here reallyquick.
In 1845, they had a candidatethat was going to be a

(51:30):
missionary and the question wascan we send out a slave owner?
to be a missionary and theSouthern Baptists.
Many of them said well, itsounds like the Triune Assembly
will not support him.
Let's form our own convention.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
That formed the Southern Baptist Convention in
1845 on the issue of slavery,because they wanted to send out
the Southern Baptist Conventionin 1845 on the issue of slavery,
because they wanted to send out.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
They wanted to say it was okay to support someone
signing off on their affirmingtheir faith by supporting them
on the mission field and theywould send out a slave.
But that was the beginning ofthe SBC the beginning of the SBC
was so that we could be aconvention and allow slavery.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
That's a fun fact right there.
Oh, it's a sad fact.
Yeah, not a fun fact at all.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
So you know I said this in our gathering.
Southern Baptists are thelargest Protestant denomination
in the United States, soextremely influential.
They've grown leaps and boundsand as they've grown they've met
their own challenges withtheology.
We remain a very conservativedenomination but as we've grown

(52:39):
and things have changed in ourculture, we have looked back on
that time not understanding whywe would allow a slave owner to
be a missionary or even affirm aslave owner's faith.
Now I'm not saying, okay, georgeWhitefield owned slaves, he
wasn't a believer.
I'm not saying that In factthere have been SBC professors

(53:02):
who have said which one of youwould have stood up and said, no
, we can't have it?
And that day and said, no, wecan't have slaves, that's
unbiblical, that's unbiblical,that's ungodly, it's wicked.
And you know you have all thesepeople raising their hands and
you're like, are you sure youwould have?
That was the culture in thatday and it's sad.
And so the Southern BaptistConvention regularly repudiates

(53:25):
that with eyes not just to lookdown at our fathers in the faith
but to not understand it.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah, all right, they were people of their day.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah Well, do you want to do the trivia?

Speaker 1 (53:41):
You want to do a little quick trivia and then
we'll close it?

Speaker 3 (53:42):
Yeah, I've got some SBC trivia for you.
Are we bored to death?
I know Jordan's just sittinghere, tapping his foot.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
He's like get me out of here.
No, no, no.
My brain, my brain, I just gota bunch of information.
I'm going to have to listen tothis again, Same.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
So look up some names in the early Baptist movement.
It would be important to lookup Thomas Helwes, john Smith and
Roger Williams.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Yeah, it's nice to know where we came from or where
Baptist churches have come from, so that's very good.
All right got some trivia foryou.
You ready.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
About the SBC All right.
So SBC is the denomination Well, I just said denomination.
It's the convention we're apart of.
We're not technically a part ofa denomination, we're kind of
more independent-ish.
But we convene with 46,000churches once a year and pull
our money from missions andeducation.

(54:36):
That convention is the SouthernBaptist Convention.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Yeah, okay, all right , this one's fun because it's a
seasonal question.
Okay, what annual campaignpromotes the SBC's international
missions efforts?

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Lottie Moon.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Wow In.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
China.
Lottie Moon was a missionary toChina, and so there's something
called the Cooperative Program,which is just the program, the
way in which we pull our money.
It's called the CooperativeProgram, and the Cooperative
Program funds a number of things.
So when we as a church choosehow much we want to give to the
Cooperative Program, if we giveanything, we're technically
Southern Baptists.
All you have to do to be saidabout is just to give money to

(55:15):
the cooperative program or givemoney to some others.
So we're so bad.
But unique about the lottiemoon annual uh offering is that
100 of the proceeds go tooverseas missionaries are
southern baptist missionaries.
Unique about the southernbaptist missionaries is that
they don't have to raise theirown funds.
They are vetted by a systemthat we have organized and voted
on as 46,000 churches and theyare fully funded by our

(55:39):
collective funds.
They're 4,000.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Just go and focus on being on it.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
As long as they're approved, they can go and focus.
They don't have to come backfor a year and raise funds.
So they're salaried all overthe world 4,000 of them.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
That's great, all right.
What prominent SBC leader wasknown as the quote-unquote
Prince of Preachers andinfluenced Baptist theology in
the 19th century?

Speaker 3 (56:01):
So not a Southern Baptist.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
Yeah, an English Baptist, wow, charles Haddon
Spurgeon.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
You're just the coolest, trent knows everything.
He was a megachurch pastor.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
He wouldn't have been called a mega church pastor
back then, but a very largepastor.
A unique idea or unique factabout Charles Spurgeon Most
people know him by his preachingand by the fact that he really
likes cigars.
But a big, booming voice.
A fact about him is his and onemight call it his philanthropy

(56:40):
or his work with adoption andshelters and group homes,
orphanages as well.
He was an abolitionist and sothere were I've heard there were
some US Baptists who were not afan of Spurgeon because of his

(57:01):
letters he wrote advocatingabolition in the United States.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, what state has the most SBC affiliated churches
?

Speaker 1 (57:11):
I could guess yes, florida, no.
Okay, then it's probablygeorgia.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
miss, uh no you mean one more guess.
You only have one more guess.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
I'm not gonna tell you, it's somewhere in that area
you get one guess, one state isit te Texas?
It's Texas.
Okay, okay, that makes sense.
I think there are probably moreFlorida Baptist churches per
capita in Florida or Georgia orsomething like that, my guess.
But Texas is stinking huge.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Texas is a large state.
What SBC seminary is located inWake Forest, North Carolina?

Speaker 1 (57:48):
It's the seminary that Pastor Bob is a trustee in.
Southeastern BaptistTheological Seminary.
Yeah, president is Danny Akin.
Also, southern BaptistConvention started chartered in
Georgia, so that was my secondguess.
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Wow, is that it.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
You're so cool.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
No other questions I have well, you want more
questions.
One more, one more, one more,and then we'll end it.
We're at 58 minutes.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
The rest of these are so easy, though, because it's
just like.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
I know, you know them find a hard one, find a hard
one okay, I have one that's.
I was worried about this, andthese haven't been too hard,
well, I gave you some that Iknew would be anyway.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
What year was the Southern Baptist Convention
officially founded?
I already said that you did doyou need a month, no, just the
year.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
It was founded in march of 1845, but the charter
in augusta, georgia, wasdecember of 1845 yeah, the rest
of these are just like okay.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
So in what city was the southern baptist convention
founded?

Speaker 1 (58:43):
I just said you know, yeah, you already said that

Speaker 2 (58:45):
just like all of these things, the sbc annual
meeting, international missionboard, like I just know.
You know them, so it's justjust.
It's too, trent's, just so fullof knowledge you guys.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Whatever?

Speaker 2 (58:54):
I don't know what to do with myself.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
So to realize how large the SBC is, there is
supposedly 16 million members.
However, at the last ACP in2024, so based on the 2023 year
there were about 4 millionactive attenders in Southern
Baptist churches.
There's a Southern Baptistchurch in every state, including

(59:18):
Puerto Rico.
There were 226,000.
It's on the top of my head, butI'm pretty sure that's right
226,000 baptisms in SBC in thelast year Pretty cool.
It's on the top of my head, butI'm pretty sure that's right.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
226,000 baptisms in SBC in the last year Pretty cool
man.
I asked ChapGPT for moredifficult questions and I know
that you also know these.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Ask a few, and then we got it.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
No, you do, it's an hour.
You do Freak.
You know these Okay.
Which SBC-affiliatedorganization focuses on disaster
relief?

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Well, Freak, you know these Okay which SBC-affiliated
organization focuses ondisaster relief?
Well, so it's immediatelycalled Send Relief but it's
under the.
North American Mission Board.
If it says anything else, it'swrong.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
It says Southern Baptist Disaster Relief.
Is that wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
It's probably it's just called Send Relief now, but
yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
What was the?

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
name of the SBC's first official hymnal published
in 1850?
.
I have no idea, but I couldguess.
Yes, I found the question.
I would guess the.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Baptist hymnal.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
The Baptist psalmody.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Okay, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Okay, well, thanks for listening.
Yeah, thanks everyone forlistening.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Thanks for keeping on the podcast and actually
listening to this far you madeit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
That's great.
You can use this podcast, justlisten to it, during your
hour-long commute from Lakeland.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Hey, here's the deal.
I think people hunger to be apart of a movement bigger than
themselves.
The idea of Baptists was torestore the teachings of the
apostles and the early churchand remove the excess.
You belong to a movement, apart of that.
How cool is that?

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
That's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
All right, that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Pretty sick.
Hey, thanks so much foranswering all the questions,
Trent.
So grateful for you and thanks.
Jordan for being here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Thank you, yeah, thanks for sitting in, did you?
Did you talk on the mic at all?
Not really.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
I was just paying attention.
That's good.
Thanks for hanging out.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
All right, here we go , you ready.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
All right, bye.
Have a great time.