February 16, 2025 • 36 mins
Receiving criticism can be tough for anyone, but what is it like when the criticism comes in the context of ministry? This week, we dive into the often challenging topic of handling criticism as a Pastor. Pastor Bob opens up about the inevitable critiques that come with being in the public eye and discusses how humility can help pastors—and believers alike—process feedback constructively. We explore the importance of trusted voices who provide valuable insight into our lives. Criticism is a very human part of ministry, so join us this week as Pastor Trent and Pastor Bob talk about both helpful and unhelpful criticism, and how they manage and grow from it.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey everybody, we're back at it Podcast today.
It's been a couple weeks, bob,how are you?
I'm doing okay, doing better.
Soccer team's doing well,they're doing okay, you're
feeling better.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
They're moving along in the playoffs and I'm slowly
getting over the cold I broughtback from the Dominican.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're coughing less.
I am thankfully you were aboutto lose your voice during the
sermon on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, I had lost my voice while we were in the
Dominican and it came backenough that I could preach on
Sunday.
So it was good, but we're allgood, you're all good.
Why didn't you do a podcastwhile I was out of town, man, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
He hates doing them without you.
I know that's what it is,that's not it?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
What is the podcast that, pastor Bob?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
That's not it at all.
You were just busy, sure Lazy.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I wasn't lazy, I don't know.
It feels like Thursday.
I had something I was doingspecifically on Thursday.
Do you remember I wasn't?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Were you at USF?
No, that was the week beforethat.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I feel like I was somewhere on Thursday, though I
couldn't be here.
I don't remember.
I don't remember either BecauseI said I had to record on
Wednesday if I was going torecord it.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Our faithful listeners tune in every Monday
waiting for a new podcast, andyou disappointed them last week.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I know I'm always encouraged to hear who listens
to the podcast.
Someone just the other day wastelling me that they were going
back through every episode theycould, which is a lot of
episodes.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, we've done quite a few now.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It was Donnie and Caroline.
They were listening to theepisodes so that was kind of
cool.
So I think they said they werelike starting back at like
number one and had gone through.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, he was at breakfast this morning and
mentioned that he'd beenlistening to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
That's encouraging.
Hello, donnie, what's up?
Well, hey, jordan, how are you?
He didn't have a mic.
He said very good, kara, howare you?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm doing all right, I'm sad.
Why are you sad?
We all know they lost to the.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Super Bowl.
Oh no yeah, they just played anawful game.
The Eagles played a really goodgame too.
Eagles played a great game.
Chiefs played a terrible game Ithink, unless you just really
hate the chiefs, it wasn't thatfun of a game to watch either,
because it's never that fun whenone team's just dominating the
other.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You kind of want a match to be close unless it's a
team that's won a bunch and youwant to see them lose, then it's
kind of fun, that's so.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I mean, I think the defense so the eagles offense
did great, but I think thedefense just killed it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Oh for sure, oh so how has your life changed?
Since it's not the football,it's not, not at all.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Exactly.
I don't get like super sad,it's just like, oh man, that
would be cool.
I'm sure there are people thatare like emotionally distressed
and financially distressed someof them yeah, not me, not me, uh
.
But by the fourth quarter I waslike this is just not a fun
game to watch anymore, right, Imean it's just totally one-sided
, they're not gonna win.
And then, of course, the chiefsdecided to play.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
They got three touchdowns in the but for those
of us that were sitting at home,knowing that you were not
enjoying it, it was kind ofenjoyable, yeah it was a great
night.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I loved thinking about how trent was, I got a.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I got a few texts.
The one another thing I don'tlike having like living on the
east coast, east eastern part ofthe United States, eastern time
zone when it comes to sports,because I don't stay up late at
night and some of those footballgames that start at like seven
or so.
Of course, super Bowl start at6 30 our time, but some games
(03:22):
that start at 7 or even 8 aren'tdone until midnight and that's
awful.
So of course, if you live onthe West Coast, football games
are happening during churchservices.
So, that's tough, it's rough.
It shouldn't be tough, but itis tough For some preachers.
Their congregation doesn't showup.
Dvr, dvr.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
What does that mean?
I don't think it's called DVR,dvr.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, it's called DVR anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Pastor Bob, what is it called when you record
something or you?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
tape something Recording something.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
But isn't there a button when you're going through
that says DVR?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Maybe if you have cable or satellite.
Yes, yeah, I don't have that, Idon't anymore.
I just have like the Fubo,which is like what I have during
football season.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So you can watch it anytime you want.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what's your problem?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah yeah, yeah, period, pass it around, come on,
come on now.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Well, hey, I have a fact for you and I don't know if
you know this or not.
You may know this.
Do you know Mac Robinson?
I don't think I do.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Okay, you're about to , Unless he's a no, that's John
Robinson.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
No, go ahead, I don't know a.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Mac Robinson.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Okay, so in 1936, the Olympics were held in Berlin,
berlin.
And Adolf Hitler was, of course, there present, along with a
lot of swastikas.
I can't say it in the100,000-person stadium where the
track was.
Do you remember who won the 200that?
(04:51):
year from USA, jesse Owens.
His name was Jesse Owens.
He had just gotten thebrand-new pair of Adidas which
he exhibited running very wellin winning the 200-meter dash.
I think he ran somewhere like a20.7, uh, 20 seconds and 0.7
seconds and set a new worldrecord at the time.
Behind him was another uhathlete, another black athlete
(05:15):
from the United States, whichAdolph was not happy about, and
he won second place silver medalfrom the United States.
His name was Mack Robinson placesilver medal from the united
states.
His name was mac robinson.
He did not have a new pair ofsneakers, he just just missed
gold medal.
I think he ran a 21.1.
Okay, uh, mac went to pasadenajunior college.
(05:36):
Uh, not much time later heactually went back to pasadena
and was a street sweeper back toPasadena and was a street
sweeper until the.
I guess the city, due to thetime period, got rid of people
that were black on the streetsserving in such a role.
Why I tell you this?
Because Mack Robinson had abrother.
(05:58):
Any ideas who Mack Robinson'sbrother was?
Eddie, it was Jackie Robinson.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Jackie Jackie Robinson Jackie.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Jackie Robinson, who broke the color barrier in Major
League Baseball.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Isn't that kind of cool.
So you have two verycompetitive brothers, Mack and
Jackie Mack was in the Olympicsjust behind Jesse Owens.
Mackie and Jackie Mackie and.
Jackie, they both have largestatues in Pasadena now, but I
thought that was kind of cool.
That's the fact of the day.
(06:30):
That's a cool fact have youseen the movie what's?
Speaker 2 (06:33):
it called Run about Jesse Owens and the 36 Olympics.
I have not.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I would love to see it.
It's a good movie.
I did watch the movie.
There was a number of moviesthat came out around that time.
When Run came out, the Nikemovie came out around that time.
When Run came out, the Nikemovie came out around then which
was called Air, and there waslike another historic movie that
came out, but I have not seenRun yet.
Have you seen?
It is a rated R movie, so we'rebringing up the podcast.
(06:59):
But have you seen Gladiator 2?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
We are bringing it up .
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I'm bringing it up on the podcast.
Have you seen Gladiator 2?
No, have you seen gladiator 2?
We are bringing it up.
I'm bringing up on the podcast.
Have you seen gladiator 2?
No, I was a big fan ofgladiator 1, which, by the way,
I'm thankful as a radar movie.
There's very little, uh,relational things can you say
that intimacy things.
And gladiator 1 there's alsovery little, if any.
In gladiator 2 it's, it's anepic, it's uh, there's a little
(07:24):
bit of language, there's a lotof action sequences, blood and
gore, blood and gore, buthonestly, in the Gladiator
movies there's not as much as somany other movies today.
So I watched Gladiator 2 and itwas a good movie.
I was thankful.
It was very similar.
It's like they kind of had thetemplate of what to do because
of how successful the firstmovie was and they follow that
(07:44):
template, but they did connectit with the first movie.
I've been a big gladiator fanfor a long time.
In fact, when I was in middleschool, the cross country coach
that we had our high schoolcross country coach who's in the
hall of fame, I think even thenational hall of fame.
It's one like 40 statechampionships or something crazy
like that between men's andwomen's cross country.
(08:05):
Uh, I was like an eighth graderrunning in the morning with the
high school guys, cause he leteighth graders, seventh graders
do that and one morning he wouldjust like kind of just randomly
come in and say hey, we're notrunning this morning, we're
watching gladiator, and so wewatched gladiator.
So I and my parents didn't knowthe time and probably weren't
very happy when they found outwe're not running.
(08:29):
We're not running.
Every once in a while we'd getup either at 6, 15 am.
He'd call us in the locker roomand say I got some news to
share with you, and then we'djust kind of give a John Wooden
quote and talk about it for 30minutes before we ran.
Well, hey, I have a questionfor you, pastor Bob.
Yes, man.
Well, hey, I have a questionfor you, pastor Bob.
Yes, sir, I want you to ranksome items.
We've been doing the ranking.
(08:49):
We've been doing a lot ofranking lately.
I think it's fun.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I think people like it.
So I want you to rank 10 SuperBowl foods.
Now, some of these you knowmight be oh, you don't want to
eat that this year.
Well, I tried, I had to come upwith 10.
So, jordan, you have a copy ofthis.
Carrie, you have a copy of this.
I need the pen that you justtook, carrie, but we're going to
(09:12):
rank these big game foods.
There are 10 of them.
I'll read them off and we'llgive our rankings Soft pretzels,
a veggie tray.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
There's nine of them by the way.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Well, there's nine Soft pretzels a veggie tray
sliders, wings, pizza pigs in ablanket charcuterie, nacho chips
and dip, which is the samething.
We're going to put that in onecategory.
And then meatballs I'll saythat again Soft pretzels, veggie
tray sliders, wings, pizza pigsin a blanket charcuterie,
(09:44):
nachos, slash chips and dip, andmeatballs.
You have an easy number one youwant to share.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Are we going top to bottom or bottom to top?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I always like going bottom to top.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
So number number 10, number nine, number nine that's
right, because you said it was10, but there's only nine,
correct?
Um?
So when I'm I don't eat a tonwhen I'm watching games, but if
I do I'm not eating healthy.
Okay, so I would say, um,charcuterie and veggie would be
nine and eight on my list.
Okay, I'm not a huge softpretzel guy, so I'm not either
I'm not either, and pigs in theblanket involves said stuff so
six would be next um nachoscheese five okay um meatballs,
(10:34):
probably four sliders, threewings to pizza One.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Ours are very similar .
Pizza is number one.
Yeah, what's your favoritelocal pizza place?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Uh, we like Atlas, it's down near us yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay, what kind of pizza is it?
New York style?
Oh yeah, then Okay, greasy.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
No, not not terribly bad.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Uh, is it, is it is.
It just has got off as theother guy.
Uh, um, is it crispy on thebottom or does it flop?
Um, it flops a little bit,flops, okay, yeah, I didn't know
how to exactly say that.
Yep, all right, what about youcare?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
can I start with my favorite?
Uh, sure no I have to go withthe lowest.
Yep, well, the three lowest, Idon't really.
They're all kind of in the samecategory.
Veggie tray.
For obvious reasons I put pigsin a blanket and then sliders,
because I don't really havesliders like that and then I
(11:29):
might just be incrediblyunintelligent.
It's hard for me to countbackwards.
So nine, eight, seven, six,pizza.
Six is pizza for me, and thenfive is charcuterie.
Four is nachos.
I like nachos.
Three is a soft pretzel.
Soft pretzel is delicious.
I know you had it so low on thelist I'm judging over here.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, I don't like pretzels and that hurt so bad.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I love soft pretzel.
Riley had these soft pretzelbites at her little place.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Do you like them with mustard, or do you like them
with cinnamon sugar?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh, cinnamon sugar Come on Cinnamon sugar is really
good.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
I like them with mustard and I like them with
cheese.
I just like soft pretzels.
Okay, fair enough, I just likesoft pretzels.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Soft pretzels to me are similar to bagels, where
it's just kind of hard breadOkay.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
It's a little too chewy and hard bread, and you're
allowed to have the opinionsthat you have, trent.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I am allowed, thank you.
Thank you for giving the spaceto hear my opinion.
For sure, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
This is a safe space for you to be wrong.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
My top two are wings and meatballs, just for obvious
reasons, I think, becausethey're saucy and full of meat.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Saucy and full of meat.
Boneless wings Bone-in wings.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I like bone-in wings.
What's your flavor?
I don't know Whatever.
The red one is Buffalo wings.
I'm not a huge buffalo wing fan.
Honey barbecue.
Anything on wings, I likegarlic parm.
Garlic parm is great Did yourank these Jordan?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Do you want to share yours?
It's pretty much the same asPastor Bob's.
Same as Pastor Bob's.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
See, we got taste on this side of the table.
Follow wisdom.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Okay, the only thing I would switch.
The gray hair is wisdom's crownWings.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I would switch the pizza.
I would personally switch thepizza and the wings.
Wings go first.
Fair enough, so pizza's numbertwo.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Okay, all right, I'm going to go.
I'm not a huge pizza fan, so ithas to be like the right pizza,
and usually big game pizza isnot the best pizza to me.
I like the Detroit style,Chicago style, and a lot of
times it's New York style, whichis okay, All right.
Meatballs is my least favoriteMeatballs, just have to be
really really good Now I do likemeatballs.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I don't even think they have to be good.
You're ranking a charcuterieboard above meatballs, barely
Barely.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I don't even think meatballs have to be good for me
to just be eating them.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Because here's why.
Here's why A charcuterie boardoftentimes has dips and stuff
and I'm all for the dips.
That's not my number one.
It's nacho cheese and dips andstuff, chips and dip, all right
Meatballs, then veggie tray,then charcuterie Meatballs last,
all kind of in that category.
The meatballs just have to bereally good.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, they don't.
They just have to be warm andhave barbecue sauce on them, all
right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
That's all.
Then soft pretzels, then five.
I like pigs in a blanket,especially.
Pigs in a blanket are mostlylike the crispy bread, like a
croissant style bread, right.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Can be.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I'm a fan of.
That Can be All right, forpizza depends on the style.
Three sliders, two wings, onenacho cheese and dip or nachos
chips and dip, so whatever likeFrench onion dip or whatever.
I like the chips and dip.
So if I'm picking anything onhere, it is wings and then chips
and dip.
That's what I want.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Meatballs and wings.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I've just had bad meatballs.
I've had bad ones, so topic ofthe day.
So I want us to talk aboutcriticism.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Can I criticize your choice in foods?
No, you cannot.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I do not allow it.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
That's the end of this conversation.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Do we embrace criticism?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
No, no, we do not.
Anyone that criticizes you theysay your opinions are wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
In my opinion, you're always right.
Correct opinions, okay.
So topic of the day I want totalk about criticism.
Is criticism a good thing, oris it a good thing for a
minister to a pastor to receiveand embrace criticism?
How do they embrace or receiveencouragement, comments,
feedback or what have you?
(15:29):
And I want to begin with averse of Scripture, proverbs 15,
31 through 32, probably one ofthe most common verses regarding
criticism.
It says this the ear thatlistens to life-giving reproof
will dwell among the wise.
Whoever ignores instructiondespises himself.
But he who listens to reproofgains intelligence.
(15:51):
So is being open to criticismand accepting correction a sign
of wisdom?
Well, the Bible says yes.
So is there a biblical precedentor encouragement to receive
criticism?
Yes, proverbs 15, 31-32?
.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Oh, clearly, yes, yes , of course.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
How do you?
Pastor Bob, as a pastor you'rea public figure.
You stand before a number ofpeople any given week, multiple
times a week, sharing the wordsof the Lord, so one could
criticize you for content.
I disagree with you on that.
Or I don't really like hispreaching style, or he preaches
(16:30):
too long, or he looks funnysometimes.
I don't know.
Uh, how do you receivecriticism?
Do you receive it often?
Uh, do you welcome it?
Make room for it?
Where do you receive it?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
There's a lot of questions you just threw in
there.
You always like to throw like10 questions in the first
question by email, right to yourface.
All of the above, and in 36years of doing this, I've
received a lot of criticisms.
Yeah Right, some which are trueand some which I probably
disagree with.
So, yes, I've receivedcriticism.
(17:07):
Do I like it?
No, I'm a human being.
You strive to do your very bestbut at the same time, you have
to be humble enough to recognizeyou're not perfect.
You need to learn things andsome people see things from a
different lens that you have ablind spot to, and it's helpful
to see it.
So I always try to look at thespirit of the one bringing the
(17:28):
criticism.
Is it constructive, is it froma good place?
But regardless of whether it'sconstructive or not, or even
regardless of whether it comesfrom a good place or not, I
still need to listen to it, tosay is there an Inkling of truth
to this?
Do I?
Am I blind to something thatI'm not aware of?
So I think it's wise to listento criticism, being careful not
(17:48):
to be overwhelmed by it, becausewe tend to.
You get ten attaboys and youhear one negative comment.
You forget the ten attaboys andyou remember one negative
comment, and so you can't beoverwhelmed by them, but you
have to Listen to them and thensee okay, is what they're saying
true?
Is it helpful?
Do I need to consider it from adifferent perspective?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Do you then weigh criticism by the person who
brings it?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I think that would be fair to say.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
So your wife says something probably has greater
weight than someone you've nevermet before, who sees you preach
one time and gives a largecriticism.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Not just my wife, somebody who's a faithful church
member, who's here week afterweek and I've heard many times
yeah, I'm probably going to givea little more weight to that
conversation than somebody whojust walked in and has never
seen me before in their life,doesn't know anything about me.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
That's right, because they know your heart.
They know maybe you seem reallyheavy talking about this
subject, but maybe that's thetime that you've talked about
that subject once in the lastyear, right, you talked about
money.
You just want money, pastor,maybe that's the first sermon
you've ever heard and it's theone sermon given in the last
year about money or somethingCorrect yeah yeah, okay, what
(19:00):
about you?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I never receive criticism.
We can correct that if you'dlike.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad
thing.
Typically I will ask my wife Itry not to in the moment, right
after I'm done preaching, orsomething.
Hey, did I communicate thatwell?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
A lot of times my thoughts are in preparation, I'm
going to teach a certain way, Ihave a certain thing in mind,
and yet oftentimes how we intendto communicate something is not
always how it is perceived.
So I'm asking the questionslike was that perceived in the
way you think I intended tocommunicate that?
(19:44):
Was I too heavy handed?
Was I too soft?
Yada yada.
And so my wife is very helpfulbecause she knows everything
about me that other people maynot know.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So her criticism is weighed heavily Sure and I think
it's important for us to haveparticular people that we ask to
critique us, whether it's inour preaching, our presentation,
are we coming across the way weintend to, is it in our
leadership.
There are certain people thatyou need to give license in your
life to say help me see what Idon't see, and so that's got to
(20:17):
be a tight-knit group of peoplethat you genuinely trust, that
have the church's best interestat heart, your best interest at
heart, and who love you andgenuinely will speak to you.
So I think we ought to seek outconstructive criticism as well
as just receive it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, I do think as well.
On top of that, every criticismcan be constructive in some
sort of way, Even if it's badcriticism, like there's no
grounding for it it humbles us,right?
yeah, right, which is a goodthing.
Right, there's this old adage Idon't know if it's true or not
where one of the famous caesarsin rome had someone hired to
follow along.
(20:52):
You know, uh, into whisperinghis ear, you're only a man.
Have you heard this before?
Yeah, whether that's true ornot, right, I mean, we all need
to be humbled sometimes, right?
Uh, we need to be very carefulabout putting ourselves above
criticism.
We are only a man, sure.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Sometimes it's the subject of the criticism, so if
it's content, okay, I'm going tolisten to that pretty closely.
Maybe you didn't hear what Isaid, because you and I both
spend a great deal of time inour study before we present
something to the church.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
It's probably true to say that we spend more time on
content than we do communicationor delivery.
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So to hear a criticism about I don't like
what you said here, then I'mgoing to go back and go.
Okay, did I articulate itproperly?
But if it's, I don't like thefact that you wore blue jeans
when you preach this Sunday, orI don't like the way that you
wore blue jeans when you preachthis Sunday or I don't like the
way you part your hair.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
You can say my wife doesn't wink Right.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So it just depends if it's delivery, if it's a style,
if it's a personal preference.
Again, you can learn from thosethings.
But what's the subject of thecriticism is important.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
And because content is so important to us I think
probably even in our writing atleast I do this I would assume
you do some version of this.
You're kind of, if you have tomake an interpretive decision,
trying to discover what theauthor meant when he wrote it to
this particular group of peoplesay, paul to the church at
Philippi you're actually kind offorming arguments in your head,
for this is how I would defendthe position I hold here for
(22:26):
what he means here.
And so you're almost not thatyou're writing defensively, but
you're giving an apologetic forthe interpretation that you take
, whether that's a part of thesermon or not, and so we want to
be open to other opinions thatare valid and yet be prepared to
give a defense for theinterpretation we took of a
(22:49):
given passage.
Yeah, yeah.
Like last night, I'm in apassage of scripture about head
coverings, right, and weobviously don't believe that
women are bound to wear headcoverings in services.
We don't talk about that.
We think it's a cultural issuein Corinth.
But there might be someone whosays I've studied it and we give
room for you.
Right, You're walking over,you're head covering, what have
(23:12):
you?
Yeah, All right, so let's talkabout some specifics, if you
don't mind.
Well, one more thing before wetalk about specifics.
It was not too long ago.
I heard a podcast where aparticular church pastor
actually has a sermon reviewtime where he invites anyone
(23:34):
who's on staff or not on staff,but was a regular preacher or
does preaching for the church,to basically critique the sermon
.
Weird, not weird over the top.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I think it's personal preference.
I don't know that it's weird ornot weird.
I don't know that it's over thetop.
I think it's.
If somebody wants that muchinput, then they should go seek
that out.
If they are crafting their voiceand how they preach.
I think that's helpful.
There are times you and I justhave conversations.
You know, here's what I'mthinking about in this text,
(24:11):
here's how I'm thinking aboutpresenting it.
So we kind of do that in thefront end and every now and then
we'll say did that come acrosslike I want it?
So you and I do that a littlebit, but we don't have a team
around us that does that.
So there's nothing wrong withit.
It's just I don't think there'sanything wrong with it.
There's just um personal growthand what, what, what you use to
(24:32):
um grow as a communicator Idon't use a team, I just kind of
use ai.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I'm kidding.
So yeah, sometimes I'll walkinto your office, to darren's
office, and say, hey, how doesit sound?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
right.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Does this make sense?
So I want to kind of look atsome criticisms maybe that
you've received in the past.
Some encouragements you'vereceived in the past Of course
share with your own discretion.
So criticisms maybe aboutpastoring, about preaching, or
about your own personality Somepeople just don't like
personality, right.
What have these things taughtyou?
(25:03):
Have they shaped your ministryso?
Can you give any example, alist of questions here?
Can you give any example of afrustrating and maybe unhelpful
criticism you've received inministry?
I didn't think of examples formyself either.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Well, and I haven't, as I've walked in here, I can
think of more helpful than I canunhelpful examples.
I mean there's tons ofunhelpful examples.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I just can't without just being petty.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I've probably received one in the past and it
would be, I would say, unhelpful.
Not because they were acting inany sort of way ungodly,
unhelpful because my theologicalinclination or path doesn't
lead that direction.
And so someone once told me,young in ministry, I need to be
more prophetic, and what theymeant by prophetic was basically
prophesy over someone.
(25:59):
This is not where I landtheologically.
So not that it was necessarilyunhelpful, but it was
practically unhelpful.
This is not where I landtheologically.
So not that it was necessarilyunhelpful, but it was
practically unhelpful.
It's not where I landtheologically.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, there's times where, ironically, I can preach
a message to a congregation andhave somebody critique it and
say it was too long, andsomebody else critique it and
say it should have gone longer.
Somebody can critique it andsay you got too deep and other
people would say you didn't godeep enough.
So it's yeah those thingsaren't particularly helpful.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I find when I I feel like this is somebody pastor
says someone's cliche.
But it has been true in myministry that I will preach and
feel like it went well.
And now I'll ask my wife andshe's like, eh, you know, and
she's she'll like eh, and she'llbe honest, she's very kind, but
she'll be honest and Iappreciate that.
And then I'll go up to her andI say man, that was rough, how
(26:51):
was it?
And I'll wait a few hours sothat I'm not dependent on just
everybody's response to what Isay.
She'll say no, I thought thatwas really good.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And I'm like praise the Lord, because I did not
think that went well at all.
So, okay, what is an example ofa difficult but helpful
criticism you received in yourministry Early on?
I'm such a type A task-orientedperson.
I get a job in front of me andI just want to get it done.
And so, early on on, I had tolearn, and through wisdom from
godly men around me, um, thatpeople aren't an interrupted
(27:31):
interruption in my ministry,cause oftentimes I would just,
even as a young guy trying toget sermons ready for Wednesday
nights or whatever it may havebeen, I just put my head down
and go to work and, uh, ifsomething interrupts that, it,
it.
It was troubling to me and Ihad to learn early on the people
aren't interruptions in yourministry, the people are your
ministry, and so that was a.
(27:51):
That was an early critique thatwas extremely helpful to me
that I still today have to beaware of because I my nature
hasn't changed.
I still would go in my officeand write sermons and Bible
studies for hours every day, but, um, this is just a strong,
good, loving critique in myministry.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, uh, and preaching keeping it simple, uh
is helpful for me, and then alsothe power of illustration.
I mean, I knew it but it is agood reminder.
So you know, I lean to being toprobably exhortation through
(28:33):
explanation and I'm OK withapplication, but illustration is
uniquely helpful.
I think people will rememberillustrations that we give
longer than they remember thetext that was in that.
We gave it Right.
So illustrations are veryhelpful, I think early on in
ministry.
I became a pastor at a veryyoung age, while I was still in
(28:55):
school, and so school wasteaching me a lot of academic
work.
But pastoring a small countrychurch with people that lived
out in the country, justvisiting them, was something
that I didn't even know was athing in pastoral ministry, and
so I learned the quality of thatimportance of that.
What's an example of anencouraging criticism, helpful
(29:19):
criticism.
Someone encouraged you in a wayand it just really it really
helped you in your ministry.
I really appreciate the way youdid this and so you emphasize
that Sure.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I had two mentors in pastoral ministry one who was
just an excellent preacher,expositor, pulpiteer, and
another who was just a godlyleader of people.
And so I learned from both ofthem that there's a balance
there, that you have to do thework to be a good expositor of
(29:53):
the word, but you also just haveto love people and lead people.
And you can talk to them allday in the pulpit, but you got
to demonstrate it in your walk.
You can tell them you love them, all you want, but you've got
to demonstrate it.
And so again early on inministry, just having those two
men speak into my life, pointingout where I was excelling in
some areas and needing to excelin others, so that was helpful
(30:18):
for me.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
When I think about pastors getting fired, I think
the top reason pastors areprobably fired are either
personality differences orcharacter issues is number one.
Number two is administrative,significant problems.
Number three is probablypreaching or doctrine right.
So people really value how youtreat them right.
(30:41):
And so if you have an issuewith someone rarely is it, will
it continue as a doctrinal issueunless there's some significant
doctrine you hit when you gothired.
But a lot of times peoplereally, really you know the old
proverb people don't care howmuch you know until they know
how much you care.
And so if we're receivingcriticism in ministry, hopefully
(31:02):
it's not because we're careless.
Right, we are careful with thetext.
Hopefully we're also carefuland care reading with people.
In what way do you think ayoung pastor, young minister or
a young believer might encouragecriticism in their life in a
(31:25):
good way?
Right, how might we openourselves up to people speaking
into our life in ways that ishelpful but sometimes hurts a
little bit?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Sure, the first way is just doing that intentionally
and giving people license to dothat.
Specific people like askingthem to do that.
So people that you trust,people that you know, people
that you know have the church'sbest interest at heart in you.
So giving them license to dothat in your life, to say, hey
look, if I'm just being a dummyright here, I need somebody to
call me out on that.
(31:54):
But then also just buildingrelationships with people where
it's outside the pulpit, whereyou have conversations with
people and you're talking tothem just on a daily basis or a
regular basis, and so they feelmore free to have conversation
with you.
That's just at a genuine level,where they're not holding you
up on some kind of falsepedestal that they don't think
(32:15):
you should be knocked off of,nor do they put you on a
pedestal in order to knock youoff of it.
So just being genuine inrelationships, I would say.
So being intentional and beinggenuine would be my
encouragement.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Do you think we have an unhealthy relationship with
our work if someone critiquesour work and it destroys us?
Probably.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Probably, but you'd have to define work, because my
life's work is the ministry andso I'm going to hold that
tightly, I'm going to be verycareful about that protective of
it.
Yeah, so, but yeah, if I'm justutterly destroyed by one word
(32:59):
of criticism, that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, and probably making it a practice to welcome
critique can help on a kind oflike an unhealthy relationship
with your infallibility, withyour work, right, right, I mean
we, we, we can make mistakes, wecan improve.
We have to remember that andopening ourselves up to critique
, asking the questions, prayingbefore and praying after, lord,
(33:25):
help me to have you know thephrase tough skin but a soft
heart in receiving criticism.
Let this help my heart but alsonot destroy my mind, as I, you
know, try to improve in anygiven way that, lord, you might
improve me, give me more wisdom.
So, inviting critique, prayingthat it wouldn't destroy your
(33:46):
soul, destroy your relationshipwith the Lord, destroy your
ministry, but actually improveit, as the proverb encourages us
to welcome critique so that itmight improve.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I would say stay humble, be a lifelong learner.
Recognize that I don't care howlong you do this.
There's still things you don'tknow.
There's still things that youdon't do well.
Recognize your own weaknesses.
We all have them, and so if a,if a criticism comes in an area
of weakness, acknowledge it andgo.
You know you're right.
I need to work on that or helpme to work on that.
(34:17):
So, yeah, just just a humilityof knowing we all continually
grow.
I'm still learning.
After all these years and manydifferent roles.
I'm still learning how to leadpeople and how to be a good
preacher and a better pastor.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I think it's right to say criticism.
It can be and is probablyweighed by the person giving it,
but every criticism can beconstructive.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Go ahead.
Yeah, to that I would.
I think we said this already,but I would add weight to the
criticism of those that I trustmore than criticism of those
that I barely know, that's theweight.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, I'm not throwing out the criticism of
the one that I don't know, butI'm adding weight to those that
are around me, know me, haveseen it day in and day out.
That's right, there's moreweight to that criticism.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, there's more wisdom in the criticism given,
because they know a lot aboutyou.
They know to measure whatthey're criticizing with your
ministry as a whole, not justone sermon, any other things.
Any questions, comments,concerns or criticisms on this
podcast?
Kara?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Honestly, I'm kidding , I don't have any.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
She was going to be very critical right there.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I almost did.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
About what we're wearing today.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
It only would have been frustrating and unhelpful
criticism, so I just keep thosein my brain.
You can keep that to yourself.
Yeah, all right.
Well, hey, thanks for those inmy brain.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
You can keep that to yourself yeah, all right.
Well, hey, thanks for listeningin.
We hope the podcast today washelpful and if it wasn't, come
critique us.
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Send a critique.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's right.
Music's going to playeventually.
There we go.
Should I do the bye?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Have a.
Hey everybody, we're back at it Podcast today.
It's been a couple weeks, bob,how are you?
I'm doing okay, doing better.
Soccer team's doing well,they're doing okay, you're
feeling better.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
They're moving along in the playoffs and I'm slowly
getting over the cold I broughtback from the Dominican.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're coughing less.
I am thankfully you were aboutto lose your voice during the
sermon on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, I had lost my voice while we were in the
Dominican and it came backenough that I could preach on
Sunday.
So it was good, but we're allgood, you're all good.
Why didn't you do a podcastwhile I was out of town, man, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
He hates doing them without you.
I know that's what it is,that's not it?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
What is the podcast that, pastor Bob?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
That's not it at all.
You were just busy, sure Lazy.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I wasn't lazy, I don't know.
It feels like Thursday.
I had something I was doingspecifically on Thursday.
Do you remember I wasn't?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Were you at USF?
No, that was the week beforethat.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I feel like I was somewhere on Thursday, though I
couldn't be here.
I don't remember.
I don't remember either BecauseI said I had to record on
Wednesday if I was going torecord it.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Our faithful listeners tune in every Monday
waiting for a new podcast, andyou disappointed them last week.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I know I'm always encouraged to hear who listens
to the podcast.
Someone just the other day wastelling me that they were going
back through every episode theycould, which is a lot of
episodes.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, we've done quite a few now.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It was Donnie and Caroline.
They were listening to theepisodes so that was kind of
cool.
So I think they said they werelike starting back at like
number one and had gone through.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, he was at breakfast this morning and
mentioned that he'd beenlistening to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
That's encouraging.
Hello, donnie, what's up?
Well, hey, jordan, how are you?
He didn't have a mic.
He said very good, kara, howare you?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm doing all right, I'm sad.
Why are you sad?
We all know they lost to the.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Super Bowl.
Oh no yeah, they just played anawful game.
The Eagles played a really goodgame too.
Eagles played a great game.
Chiefs played a terrible game Ithink, unless you just really
hate the chiefs, it wasn't thatfun of a game to watch either,
because it's never that fun whenone team's just dominating the
other.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You kind of want a match to be close unless it's a
team that's won a bunch and youwant to see them lose, then it's
kind of fun, that's so.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I mean, I think the defense so the eagles offense
did great, but I think thedefense just killed it.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Oh for sure, oh so how has your life changed?
Since it's not the football,it's not, not at all.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Exactly.
I don't get like super sad,it's just like, oh man, that
would be cool.
I'm sure there are people thatare like emotionally distressed
and financially distressed someof them yeah, not me, not me, uh
.
But by the fourth quarter I waslike this is just not a fun
game to watch anymore, right, Imean it's just totally one-sided
, they're not gonna win.
And then, of course, the chiefsdecided to play.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
They got three touchdowns in the but for those
of us that were sitting at home,knowing that you were not
enjoying it, it was kind ofenjoyable, yeah it was a great
night.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
I loved thinking about how trent was, I got a.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I got a few texts.
The one another thing I don'tlike having like living on the
east coast, east eastern part ofthe United States, eastern time
zone when it comes to sports,because I don't stay up late at
night and some of those footballgames that start at like seven
or so.
Of course, super Bowl start at6 30 our time, but some games
(03:22):
that start at 7 or even 8 aren'tdone until midnight and that's
awful.
So of course, if you live onthe West Coast, football games
are happening during churchservices.
So, that's tough, it's rough.
It shouldn't be tough, but itis tough For some preachers.
Their congregation doesn't showup.
Dvr, dvr.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
What does that mean?
I don't think it's called DVR,dvr.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, it's called DVR anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Pastor Bob, what is it called when you record
something or you?
Speaker 1 (03:48):
tape something Recording something.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
But isn't there a button when you're going through
that says DVR?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Maybe if you have cable or satellite.
Yes, yeah, I don't have that, Idon't anymore.
I just have like the Fubo,which is like what I have during
football season.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So you can watch it anytime you want.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what's your problem?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah yeah, yeah, period, pass it around, come on,
come on now.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Well, hey, I have a fact for you and I don't know if
you know this or not.
You may know this.
Do you know Mac Robinson?
I don't think I do.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Okay, you're about to , Unless he's a no, that's John
Robinson.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
No, go ahead, I don't know a.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Mac Robinson.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Okay, so in 1936, the Olympics were held in Berlin,
berlin.
And Adolf Hitler was, of course, there present, along with a
lot of swastikas.
I can't say it in the100,000-person stadium where the
track was.
Do you remember who won the 200that?
(04:51):
year from USA, jesse Owens.
His name was Jesse Owens.
He had just gotten thebrand-new pair of Adidas which
he exhibited running very wellin winning the 200-meter dash.
I think he ran somewhere like a20.7, uh, 20 seconds and 0.7
seconds and set a new worldrecord at the time.
Behind him was another uhathlete, another black athlete
(05:15):
from the United States, whichAdolph was not happy about, and
he won second place silver medalfrom the United States.
His name was Mack Robinson placesilver medal from the united
states.
His name was mac robinson.
He did not have a new pair ofsneakers, he just just missed
gold medal.
I think he ran a 21.1.
Okay, uh, mac went to pasadenajunior college.
(05:36):
Uh, not much time later heactually went back to pasadena
and was a street sweeper back toPasadena and was a street
sweeper until the.
I guess the city, due to thetime period, got rid of people
that were black on the streetsserving in such a role.
Why I tell you this?
Because Mack Robinson had abrother.
(05:58):
Any ideas who Mack Robinson'sbrother was?
Eddie, it was Jackie Robinson.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Jackie Jackie Robinson Jackie.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Jackie Robinson, who broke the color barrier in Major
League Baseball.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That's cool.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Isn't that kind of cool.
So you have two verycompetitive brothers, Mack and
Jackie Mack was in the Olympicsjust behind Jesse Owens.
Mackie and Jackie Mackie and.
Jackie, they both have largestatues in Pasadena now, but I
thought that was kind of cool.
That's the fact of the day.
(06:30):
That's a cool fact have youseen the movie what's?
Speaker 2 (06:33):
it called Run about Jesse Owens and the 36 Olympics.
I have not.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I would love to see it.
It's a good movie.
I did watch the movie.
There was a number of moviesthat came out around that time.
When Run came out, the Nikemovie came out around that time.
When Run came out, the Nikemovie came out around then which
was called Air, and there waslike another historic movie that
came out, but I have not seenRun yet.
Have you seen?
It is a rated R movie, so we'rebringing up the podcast.
(06:59):
But have you seen Gladiator 2?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
We are bringing it up .
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I'm bringing it up on the podcast.
Have you seen Gladiator 2?
No, have you seen gladiator 2?
We are bringing it up.
I'm bringing up on the podcast.
Have you seen gladiator 2?
No, I was a big fan ofgladiator 1, which, by the way,
I'm thankful as a radar movie.
There's very little, uh,relational things can you say
that intimacy things.
And gladiator 1 there's alsovery little, if any.
In gladiator 2 it's, it's anepic, it's uh, there's a little
(07:24):
bit of language, there's a lotof action sequences, blood and
gore, blood and gore, buthonestly, in the Gladiator
movies there's not as much as somany other movies today.
So I watched Gladiator 2 and itwas a good movie.
I was thankful.
It was very similar.
It's like they kind of had thetemplate of what to do because
of how successful the firstmovie was and they follow that
(07:44):
template, but they did connectit with the first movie.
I've been a big gladiator fanfor a long time.
In fact, when I was in middleschool, the cross country coach
that we had our high schoolcross country coach who's in the
hall of fame, I think even thenational hall of fame.
It's one like 40 statechampionships or something crazy
like that between men's andwomen's cross country.
(08:05):
Uh, I was like an eighth graderrunning in the morning with the
high school guys, cause he leteighth graders, seventh graders
do that and one morning he wouldjust like kind of just randomly
come in and say hey, we're notrunning this morning, we're
watching gladiator, and so wewatched gladiator.
So I and my parents didn't knowthe time and probably weren't
very happy when they found outwe're not running.
(08:29):
We're not running.
Every once in a while we'd getup either at 6, 15 am.
He'd call us in the locker roomand say I got some news to
share with you, and then we'djust kind of give a John Wooden
quote and talk about it for 30minutes before we ran.
Well, hey, I have a questionfor you, pastor Bob.
Yes, man.
Well, hey, I have a questionfor you, pastor Bob.
Yes, sir, I want you to ranksome items.
We've been doing the ranking.
(08:49):
We've been doing a lot ofranking lately.
I think it's fun.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I think people like it.
So I want you to rank 10 SuperBowl foods.
Now, some of these you knowmight be oh, you don't want to
eat that this year.
Well, I tried, I had to come upwith 10.
So, jordan, you have a copy ofthis.
Carrie, you have a copy of this.
I need the pen that you justtook, carrie, but we're going to
(09:12):
rank these big game foods.
There are 10 of them.
I'll read them off and we'llgive our rankings Soft pretzels,
a veggie tray.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
There's nine of them by the way.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Well, there's nine Soft pretzels a veggie tray
sliders, wings, pizza pigs in ablanket charcuterie, nacho chips
and dip, which is the samething.
We're going to put that in onecategory.
And then meatballs I'll saythat again Soft pretzels, veggie
tray sliders, wings, pizza pigsin a blanket charcuterie,
(09:44):
nachos, slash chips and dip, andmeatballs.
You have an easy number one youwant to share.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Are we going top to bottom or bottom to top?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I always like going bottom to top.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
So number number 10, number nine, number nine that's
right, because you said it was10, but there's only nine,
correct?
Um?
So when I'm I don't eat a tonwhen I'm watching games, but if
I do I'm not eating healthy.
Okay, so I would say, um,charcuterie and veggie would be
nine and eight on my list.
Okay, I'm not a huge softpretzel guy, so I'm not either
I'm not either, and pigs in theblanket involves said stuff so
six would be next um nachoscheese five okay um meatballs,
(10:34):
probably four sliders, threewings to pizza One.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Ours are very similar .
Pizza is number one.
Yeah, what's your favoritelocal pizza place?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Uh, we like Atlas, it's down near us yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay, what kind of pizza is it?
New York style?
Oh yeah, then Okay, greasy.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
No, not not terribly bad.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Uh, is it, is it is.
It just has got off as theother guy.
Uh, um, is it crispy on thebottom or does it flop?
Um, it flops a little bit,flops, okay, yeah, I didn't know
how to exactly say that.
Yep, all right, what about youcare?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
can I start with my favorite?
Uh, sure no I have to go withthe lowest.
Yep, well, the three lowest, Idon't really.
They're all kind of in the samecategory.
Veggie tray.
For obvious reasons I put pigsin a blanket and then sliders,
because I don't really havesliders like that and then I
(11:29):
might just be incrediblyunintelligent.
It's hard for me to countbackwards.
So nine, eight, seven, six,pizza.
Six is pizza for me, and thenfive is charcuterie.
Four is nachos.
I like nachos.
Three is a soft pretzel.
Soft pretzel is delicious.
I know you had it so low on thelist I'm judging over here.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, I don't like pretzels and that hurt so bad.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I love soft pretzel.
Riley had these soft pretzelbites at her little place.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Do you like them with mustard, or do you like them
with cinnamon sugar?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh, cinnamon sugar Come on Cinnamon sugar is really
good.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
I like them with mustard and I like them with
cheese.
I just like soft pretzels.
Okay, fair enough, I just likesoft pretzels.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Soft pretzels to me are similar to bagels, where
it's just kind of hard breadOkay.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
It's a little too chewy and hard bread, and you're
allowed to have the opinionsthat you have, trent.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I am allowed, thank you.
Thank you for giving the spaceto hear my opinion.
For sure, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
This is a safe space for you to be wrong.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
My top two are wings and meatballs, just for obvious
reasons, I think, becausethey're saucy and full of meat.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Saucy and full of meat.
Boneless wings Bone-in wings.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I like bone-in wings.
What's your flavor?
I don't know Whatever.
The red one is Buffalo wings.
I'm not a huge buffalo wing fan.
Honey barbecue.
Anything on wings, I likegarlic parm.
Garlic parm is great Did yourank these Jordan?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Do you want to share yours?
It's pretty much the same asPastor Bob's.
Same as Pastor Bob's.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
See, we got taste on this side of the table.
Follow wisdom.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Okay, the only thing I would switch.
The gray hair is wisdom's crownWings.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I would switch the pizza.
I would personally switch thepizza and the wings.
Wings go first.
Fair enough, so pizza's numbertwo.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Okay, all right, I'm going to go.
I'm not a huge pizza fan, so ithas to be like the right pizza,
and usually big game pizza isnot the best pizza to me.
I like the Detroit style,Chicago style, and a lot of
times it's New York style, whichis okay, All right.
Meatballs is my least favoriteMeatballs, just have to be
really really good Now I do likemeatballs.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I don't even think they have to be good.
You're ranking a charcuterieboard above meatballs, barely
Barely.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
I don't even think meatballs have to be good for me
to just be eating them.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Because here's why.
Here's why A charcuterie boardoftentimes has dips and stuff
and I'm all for the dips.
That's not my number one.
It's nacho cheese and dips andstuff, chips and dip, all right
Meatballs, then veggie tray,then charcuterie Meatballs last,
all kind of in that category.
The meatballs just have to bereally good.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, they don't.
They just have to be warm andhave barbecue sauce on them, all
right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
That's all.
Then soft pretzels, then five.
I like pigs in a blanket,especially.
Pigs in a blanket are mostlylike the crispy bread, like a
croissant style bread, right.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Can be.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I'm a fan of.
That Can be All right, forpizza depends on the style.
Three sliders, two wings, onenacho cheese and dip or nachos
chips and dip, so whatever likeFrench onion dip or whatever.
I like the chips and dip.
So if I'm picking anything onhere, it is wings and then chips
and dip.
That's what I want.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Meatballs and wings.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I've just had bad meatballs.
I've had bad ones, so topic ofthe day.
So I want us to talk aboutcriticism.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Can I criticize your choice in foods?
No, you cannot.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I do not allow it.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
That's the end of this conversation.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Do we embrace criticism?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
No, no, we do not.
Anyone that criticizes you theysay your opinions are wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
In my opinion, you're always right.
Correct opinions, okay.
So topic of the day I want totalk about criticism.
Is criticism a good thing, oris it a good thing for a
minister to a pastor to receiveand embrace criticism?
How do they embrace or receiveencouragement, comments,
feedback or what have you?
(15:29):
And I want to begin with averse of Scripture, proverbs 15,
31 through 32, probably one ofthe most common verses regarding
criticism.
It says this the ear thatlistens to life-giving reproof
will dwell among the wise.
Whoever ignores instructiondespises himself.
But he who listens to reproofgains intelligence.
(15:51):
So is being open to criticismand accepting correction a sign
of wisdom?
Well, the Bible says yes.
So is there a biblical precedentor encouragement to receive
criticism?
Yes, proverbs 15, 31-32?
.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Oh, clearly, yes, yes , of course.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
How do you?
Pastor Bob, as a pastor you'rea public figure.
You stand before a number ofpeople any given week, multiple
times a week, sharing the wordsof the Lord, so one could
criticize you for content.
I disagree with you on that.
Or I don't really like hispreaching style, or he preaches
(16:30):
too long, or he looks funnysometimes.
I don't know.
Uh, how do you receivecriticism?
Do you receive it often?
Uh, do you welcome it?
Make room for it?
Where do you receive it?
Speaker 2 (16:45):
There's a lot of questions you just threw in
there.
You always like to throw like10 questions in the first
question by email, right to yourface.
All of the above, and in 36years of doing this, I've
received a lot of criticisms.
Yeah Right, some which are trueand some which I probably
disagree with.
So, yes, I've receivedcriticism.
(17:07):
Do I like it?
No, I'm a human being.
You strive to do your very bestbut at the same time, you have
to be humble enough to recognizeyou're not perfect.
You need to learn things andsome people see things from a
different lens that you have ablind spot to, and it's helpful
to see it.
So I always try to look at thespirit of the one bringing the
(17:28):
criticism.
Is it constructive, is it froma good place?
But regardless of whether it'sconstructive or not, or even
regardless of whether it comesfrom a good place or not, I
still need to listen to it, tosay is there an Inkling of truth
to this?
Do I?
Am I blind to something thatI'm not aware of?
So I think it's wise to listento criticism, being careful not
(17:48):
to be overwhelmed by it, becausewe tend to.
You get ten attaboys and youhear one negative comment.
You forget the ten attaboys andyou remember one negative
comment, and so you can't beoverwhelmed by them, but you
have to Listen to them and thensee okay, is what they're saying
true?
Is it helpful?
Do I need to consider it from adifferent perspective?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Do you then weigh criticism by the person who
brings it?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I think that would be fair to say.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
So your wife says something probably has greater
weight than someone you've nevermet before, who sees you preach
one time and gives a largecriticism.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Not just my wife, somebody who's a faithful church
member, who's here week afterweek and I've heard many times
yeah, I'm probably going to givea little more weight to that
conversation than somebody whojust walked in and has never
seen me before in their life,doesn't know anything about me.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
That's right, because they know your heart.
They know maybe you seem reallyheavy talking about this
subject, but maybe that's thetime that you've talked about
that subject once in the lastyear, right, you talked about
money.
You just want money, pastor,maybe that's the first sermon
you've ever heard and it's theone sermon given in the last
year about money or somethingCorrect yeah yeah, okay, what
(19:00):
about you?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I never receive criticism.
We can correct that if you'dlike.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad
thing.
Typically I will ask my wife Itry not to in the moment, right
after I'm done preaching, orsomething.
Hey, did I communicate thatwell?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
A lot of times my thoughts are in preparation, I'm
going to teach a certain way, Ihave a certain thing in mind,
and yet oftentimes how we intendto communicate something is not
always how it is perceived.
So I'm asking the questionslike was that perceived in the
way you think I intended tocommunicate that?
(19:44):
Was I too heavy handed?
Was I too soft?
Yada yada.
And so my wife is very helpfulbecause she knows everything
about me that other people maynot know.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So her criticism is weighed heavily Sure and I think
it's important for us to haveparticular people that we ask to
critique us, whether it's inour preaching, our presentation,
are we coming across the way weintend to, is it in our
leadership.
There are certain people thatyou need to give license in your
life to say help me see what Idon't see, and so that's got to
(20:17):
be a tight-knit group of peoplethat you genuinely trust, that
have the church's best interestat heart, your best interest at
heart, and who love you andgenuinely will speak to you.
So I think we ought to seek outconstructive criticism as well
as just receive it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, I do think as well.
On top of that, every criticismcan be constructive in some
sort of way, Even if it's badcriticism, like there's no
grounding for it it humbles us,right?
yeah, right, which is a goodthing.
Right, there's this old adage Idon't know if it's true or not
where one of the famous caesarsin rome had someone hired to
follow along.
(20:52):
You know, uh, into whisperinghis ear, you're only a man.
Have you heard this before?
Yeah, whether that's true ornot, right, I mean, we all need
to be humbled sometimes, right?
Uh, we need to be very carefulabout putting ourselves above
criticism.
We are only a man, sure.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Sometimes it's the subject of the criticism, so if
it's content, okay, I'm going tolisten to that pretty closely.
Maybe you didn't hear what Isaid, because you and I both
spend a great deal of time inour study before we present
something to the church.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
It's probably true to say that we spend more time on
content than we do communicationor delivery.
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So to hear a criticism about I don't like
what you said here, then I'mgoing to go back and go.
Okay, did I articulate itproperly?
But if it's, I don't like thefact that you wore blue jeans
when you preach this Sunday, orI don't like the way that you
wore blue jeans when you preachthis Sunday or I don't like the
way you part your hair.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
You can say my wife doesn't wink Right.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So it just depends if it's delivery, if it's a style,
if it's a personal preference.
Again, you can learn from thosethings.
But what's the subject of thecriticism is important.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
And because content is so important to us I think
probably even in our writing atleast I do this I would assume
you do some version of this.
You're kind of, if you have tomake an interpretive decision,
trying to discover what theauthor meant when he wrote it to
this particular group of peoplesay, paul to the church at
Philippi you're actually kind offorming arguments in your head,
for this is how I would defendthe position I hold here for
(22:26):
what he means here.
And so you're almost not thatyou're writing defensively, but
you're giving an apologetic forthe interpretation that you take
, whether that's a part of thesermon or not, and so we want to
be open to other opinions thatare valid and yet be prepared to
give a defense for theinterpretation we took of a
(22:49):
given passage.
Yeah, yeah.
Like last night, I'm in apassage of scripture about head
coverings, right, and weobviously don't believe that
women are bound to wear headcoverings in services.
We don't talk about that.
We think it's a cultural issuein Corinth.
But there might be someone whosays I've studied it and we give
room for you.
Right, You're walking over,you're head covering, what have
(23:12):
you?
Yeah, All right, so let's talkabout some specifics, if you
don't mind.
Well, one more thing before wetalk about specifics.
It was not too long ago.
I heard a podcast where aparticular church pastor
actually has a sermon reviewtime where he invites anyone
(23:34):
who's on staff or not on staff,but was a regular preacher or
does preaching for the church,to basically critique the sermon
.
Weird, not weird over the top.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I think it's personal preference.
I don't know that it's weird ornot weird.
I don't know that it's over thetop.
I think it's.
If somebody wants that muchinput, then they should go seek
that out.
If they are crafting their voiceand how they preach.
I think that's helpful.
There are times you and I justhave conversations.
You know, here's what I'mthinking about in this text,
(24:11):
here's how I'm thinking aboutpresenting it.
So we kind of do that in thefront end and every now and then
we'll say did that come acrosslike I want it?
So you and I do that a littlebit, but we don't have a team
around us that does that.
So there's nothing wrong withit.
It's just I don't think there'sanything wrong with it.
There's just um personal growthand what, what, what you use to
(24:32):
um grow as a communicator Idon't use a team, I just kind of
use ai.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I'm kidding.
So yeah, sometimes I'll walkinto your office, to darren's
office, and say, hey, how doesit sound?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
right.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Does this make sense?
So I want to kind of look atsome criticisms maybe that
you've received in the past.
Some encouragements you'vereceived in the past Of course
share with your own discretion.
So criticisms maybe aboutpastoring, about preaching, or
about your own personality Somepeople just don't like
personality, right.
What have these things taughtyou?
(25:03):
Have they shaped your ministryso?
Can you give any example, alist of questions here?
Can you give any example of afrustrating and maybe unhelpful
criticism you've received inministry?
I didn't think of examples formyself either.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Well, and I haven't, as I've walked in here, I can
think of more helpful than I canunhelpful examples.
I mean there's tons ofunhelpful examples.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I just can't without just being petty.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I've probably received one in the past and it
would be, I would say, unhelpful.
Not because they were acting inany sort of way ungodly,
unhelpful because my theologicalinclination or path doesn't
lead that direction.
And so someone once told me,young in ministry, I need to be
more prophetic, and what theymeant by prophetic was basically
prophesy over someone.
(25:59):
This is not where I landtheologically.
So not that it was necessarilyunhelpful, but it was
practically unhelpful.
This is not where I landtheologically.
So not that it was necessarilyunhelpful, but it was
practically unhelpful.
It's not where I landtheologically.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, there's times where, ironically, I can preach
a message to a congregation andhave somebody critique it and
say it was too long, andsomebody else critique it and
say it should have gone longer.
Somebody can critique it andsay you got too deep and other
people would say you didn't godeep enough.
So it's yeah those thingsaren't particularly helpful.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I find when I I feel like this is somebody pastor
says someone's cliche.
But it has been true in myministry that I will preach and
feel like it went well.
And now I'll ask my wife andshe's like, eh, you know, and
she's she'll like eh, and she'llbe honest, she's very kind, but
she'll be honest and Iappreciate that.
And then I'll go up to her andI say man, that was rough, how
(26:51):
was it?
And I'll wait a few hours sothat I'm not dependent on just
everybody's response to what Isay.
She'll say no, I thought thatwas really good.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And I'm like praise the Lord, because I did not
think that went well at all.
So, okay, what is an example ofa difficult but helpful
criticism you received in yourministry Early on?
I'm such a type A task-orientedperson.
I get a job in front of me andI just want to get it done.
And so, early on on, I had tolearn, and through wisdom from
godly men around me, um, thatpeople aren't an interrupted
(27:31):
interruption in my ministry,cause oftentimes I would just,
even as a young guy trying toget sermons ready for Wednesday
nights or whatever it may havebeen, I just put my head down
and go to work and, uh, ifsomething interrupts that, it,
it.
It was troubling to me and Ihad to learn early on the people
aren't interruptions in yourministry, the people are your
ministry, and so that was a.
(27:51):
That was an early critique thatwas extremely helpful to me
that I still today have to beaware of because I my nature
hasn't changed.
I still would go in my officeand write sermons and Bible
studies for hours every day, but, um, this is just a strong,
good, loving critique in myministry.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, uh, and preaching keeping it simple, uh
is helpful for me, and then alsothe power of illustration.
I mean, I knew it but it is agood reminder.
So you know, I lean to being toprobably exhortation through
(28:33):
explanation and I'm OK withapplication, but illustration is
uniquely helpful.
I think people will rememberillustrations that we give
longer than they remember thetext that was in that.
We gave it Right.
So illustrations are veryhelpful, I think early on in
ministry.
I became a pastor at a veryyoung age, while I was still in
(28:55):
school, and so school wasteaching me a lot of academic
work.
But pastoring a small countrychurch with people that lived
out in the country, justvisiting them, was something
that I didn't even know was athing in pastoral ministry, and
so I learned the quality of thatimportance of that.
What's an example of anencouraging criticism, helpful
(29:19):
criticism.
Someone encouraged you in a wayand it just really it really
helped you in your ministry.
I really appreciate the way youdid this and so you emphasize
that Sure.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I had two mentors in pastoral ministry one who was
just an excellent preacher,expositor, pulpiteer, and
another who was just a godlyleader of people.
And so I learned from both ofthem that there's a balance
there, that you have to do thework to be a good expositor of
(29:53):
the word, but you also just haveto love people and lead people.
And you can talk to them allday in the pulpit, but you got
to demonstrate it in your walk.
You can tell them you love them, all you want, but you've got
to demonstrate it.
And so again early on inministry, just having those two
men speak into my life, pointingout where I was excelling in
some areas and needing to excelin others, so that was helpful
(30:18):
for me.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
When I think about pastors getting fired, I think
the top reason pastors areprobably fired are either
personality differences orcharacter issues is number one.
Number two is administrative,significant problems.
Number three is probablypreaching or doctrine right.
So people really value how youtreat them right.
(30:41):
And so if you have an issuewith someone rarely is it, will
it continue as a doctrinal issueunless there's some significant
doctrine you hit when you gothired.
But a lot of times peoplereally, really you know the old
proverb people don't care howmuch you know until they know
how much you care.
And so if we're receivingcriticism in ministry, hopefully
(31:02):
it's not because we're careless.
Right, we are careful with thetext.
Hopefully we're also carefuland care reading with people.
In what way do you think ayoung pastor, young minister or
a young believer might encouragecriticism in their life in a
(31:25):
good way?
Right, how might we openourselves up to people speaking
into our life in ways that ishelpful but sometimes hurts a
little bit?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Sure, the first way is just doing that intentionally
and giving people license to dothat.
Specific people like askingthem to do that.
So people that you trust,people that you know, people
that you know have the church'sbest interest at heart in you.
So giving them license to dothat in your life, to say, hey
look, if I'm just being a dummyright here, I need somebody to
call me out on that.
(31:54):
But then also just buildingrelationships with people where
it's outside the pulpit, whereyou have conversations with
people and you're talking tothem just on a daily basis or a
regular basis, and so they feelmore free to have conversation
with you.
That's just at a genuine level,where they're not holding you
up on some kind of falsepedestal that they don't think
(32:15):
you should be knocked off of,nor do they put you on a
pedestal in order to knock youoff of it.
So just being genuine inrelationships, I would say.
So being intentional and beinggenuine would be my
encouragement.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Do you think we have an unhealthy relationship with
our work if someone critiquesour work and it destroys us?
Probably.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Probably, but you'd have to define work, because my
life's work is the ministry andso I'm going to hold that
tightly, I'm going to be verycareful about that protective of
it.
Yeah, so, but yeah, if I'm justutterly destroyed by one word
(32:59):
of criticism, that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, and probably making it a practice to welcome
critique can help on a kind oflike an unhealthy relationship
with your infallibility, withyour work, right, right, I mean
we, we, we can make mistakes, wecan improve.
We have to remember that andopening ourselves up to critique
, asking the questions, prayingbefore and praying after, lord,
(33:25):
help me to have you know thephrase tough skin but a soft
heart in receiving criticism.
Let this help my heart but alsonot destroy my mind, as I, you
know, try to improve in anygiven way that, lord, you might
improve me, give me more wisdom.
So, inviting critique, prayingthat it wouldn't destroy your
(33:46):
soul, destroy your relationshipwith the Lord, destroy your
ministry, but actually improveit, as the proverb encourages us
to welcome critique so that itmight improve.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
I would say stay humble, be a lifelong learner.
Recognize that I don't care howlong you do this.
There's still things you don'tknow.
There's still things that youdon't do well.
Recognize your own weaknesses.
We all have them, and so if a,if a criticism comes in an area
of weakness, acknowledge it andgo.
You know you're right.
I need to work on that or helpme to work on that.
(34:17):
So, yeah, just just a humilityof knowing we all continually
grow.
I'm still learning.
After all these years and manydifferent roles.
I'm still learning how to leadpeople and how to be a good
preacher and a better pastor.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I think it's right to say criticism.
It can be and is probablyweighed by the person giving it,
but every criticism can beconstructive.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Go ahead.
Yeah, to that I would.
I think we said this already,but I would add weight to the
criticism of those that I trustmore than criticism of those
that I barely know, that's theweight.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, I'm not throwing out the criticism of
the one that I don't know, butI'm adding weight to those that
are around me, know me, haveseen it day in and day out.
That's right, there's moreweight to that criticism.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, there's more wisdom in the criticism given,
because they know a lot aboutyou.
They know to measure whatthey're criticizing with your
ministry as a whole, not justone sermon, any other things.
Any questions, comments,concerns or criticisms on this
podcast?
Kara?
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Honestly, I'm kidding , I don't have any.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
She was going to be very critical right there.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I almost did.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
About what we're wearing today.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
It only would have been frustrating and unhelpful
criticism, so I just keep thosein my brain.
You can keep that to yourself.
Yeah, all right.
Well, hey, thanks for those inmy brain.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
You can keep that to yourself yeah, all right.
Well, hey, thanks for listeningin.
We hope the podcast today washelpful and if it wasn't, come
critique us.
Right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Send a critique.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's right.
Music's going to playeventually.
There we go.
Should I do the bye?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Have a.
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