The Murder of Dr. Tanya Kopric, Three Disappearances, Three Decades, One Unsolved Episode.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everybody. I'm Sierra and I'm Ben, and welcome back
to another episode of The Unsolved Couple, where every week
Ben and I recap one of your original gateways into
true crime unsolved mysteries. Well, I know you guys. Fair warning.

(00:26):
This is an after dark episode, which just for me
and Ben basically means recording anytime after six pm where
we are old and like to be in bed by
eight point thirty.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
We're not going to be a bed that or the
You and I both take a nap today.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
I didn't take a nap. I closed my eyes and
listened to a book for a little while.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
You took a nap. I took a nap on the couch.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
You did. But it's just late. It's almost eight o'clock here,
so we'll see if this gets to be silly goose time.
But we are recapping season three, episode twenty one. Is
this the last episode of season No, it's not. It's
not the last episode.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I think there's at least one more, possibly too. I
don't know. I do know there's an episode twenty two.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
You just do like this is the season that ever ends?

Speaker 2 (01:19):
It is the season do you remember?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Did you ever watch Lamb Chop as a kid growing up.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Says the song that, Yeah, i'd.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Loved that show.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I don't remember very much, but yeah, I just I.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Mean, but you do remember that song.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
I mean everyone knew that.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, so yeah, I loved that show. What show did
you watch as a kid growing up? Is there one
like Little Little like Sesame Street, lamb Chop? What else
was there?

Speaker 2 (01:44):
I loved Teenage Ninja Turtles. It was the best show.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, the best, the best.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
It was the best. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Okay, oh and.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
We need the pill yo.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, and they had.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
That TV show that's a good one, all right. We
have four stories on this one, so we do.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
So we got to get through it.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
And a lost love again your favorite? Yeah, our favorite,
everyone's favorite.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Everyone loves a lost love.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
I've actually had a few listeners reach out and say
that they just don't remember this many lost love stories.
It is more common, oddly enough, than like the UFO
stories and the kind of mystical encounters, which is which
is crazy because that is what we all loved or

(02:42):
didn't love. Some of us in the room about unsolved mysteries.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, yeah, I I don't know. I'm in the same
boat I never saw this coming, but we're in it.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
We're in it now.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Okay, So before we dive into today's episode, I just
wanted to give you guys a quick reminder that Santa
Claus is watching. And what Santa Claus wants you to
do is support your local podcasters and your indie podcast
hosts by subscribing and following us wherever you listen to

(03:23):
your podcast, share us with a friend, follow us on
social media on self coupled, pod TikTok, and Instagram. And lastly,
for an extra special present from Santa, please leave us
a five star rating and review. All right, are you

(03:43):
ready for this story? Ben you guys, this is kind
of a crazy one. I was born, re born ready
yep okay. On a quiet September afternoon in nineteen eighty,
a Kansas City doctor pulled into the parking lot outside
of her apartment after a long day of work and

(04:05):
never made it out of the car. A man walks
up to her window, raises a forty five caliber handgun
and fires three shots.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
This says wild.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Uh. Tanya coprick story, though doesn't begin in Massurra. She
was born and raised in Yugoslavia and from an early age,
she was determined to do what few women in her
community dared to dream. She wanted to become a doctor.

(04:43):
That dream brought her to the United States aka Kansas City, Massurra, Missouri, Mizurra.
I like, Missuri, you say Tomato, I say Tomatow have you?
I think you've never been to Kansas City?

Speaker 2 (04:59):
I have have? Yes?

Speaker 1 (05:01):
Really, yep, oh I haven't. I really do want to go.
I think it looks like a cool city. I don't
think it's like somewhere you go for like a week
long stay, but like maybe a long weekend.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Right.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
I was eighteen, Okay, I don't know what like the
scene is there, but I mean it seems like it's
a town that has some good food, right Kansas City
barbecue and history. A lot of stuff happened in Kansas City.
I think one of the World's Fair was there at
one point. Possibly. Isn't there an arch somewhere around there?

Speaker 2 (05:42):
I think so? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, see, I got our whole weekend mapped out for
us arch. Yeah. Anyways, I was just thinking about this
where we're writing this. I was like, I would love
to spend a weekend in Kansas City, but that's where
she studied medicine, completing her training and bill to life
that her family back at home was very proud of.

(06:04):
By age thirty four, she had everything she'd work so
hard for. She had a successful career, She had her
own apartment and a community of friends and eventually a fiancee.
His name was Richard Bacliage. I'm pretty sure that's how

(06:28):
you pronounced it. He was a pharmacy student at the
University of Missouri. He was charismatic, energetic, and at first
very attentive. Tanya welcomed into her life and very quickly
invited him to move in with her. However, not all

(06:52):
of her friends were impressed. He gave off the ick
as some the new people say. Now, her friend is
interviewed and says that from the beginning, I didn't really
like him because he used her financially and morally. He

(07:15):
was using her for a lot of things. He used
her credit card, used her car, basically everything, her apartment, yeah. Everything.
Richard began spending more and more time with Tanya and
less time in class. He also was known to like
shower her with gifts with her own money. That's what

(07:39):
I'm we now today would call this like love bombing, right,
like super affectionate, lovey, very attentive, romantic way up front. However,
as he spent less time in class, he started to
risk flunking out. In fact, Jane is Richard's academic advisor,

(08:03):
and she's also interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Do we mention the age gap?

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Oh no, I didn't. I didn't. She was thirty four
and he was like twenty something, twenty four.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Twenty three, something like, there.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Was a ten year age I thought it was a
twelve year age gap.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Might have been. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, I mean, get it, girl, she's a cougar, But
thirty four seems kind of young to be a cougar.
What age? What age do you think starts cougar age?

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I think I don't know it. You gotta be forty
at least.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
At least for I agree, thirty nine to forty one,
forty two, maybe somewhere in there. Yeah, I don't know.
I actually don't think couger's were a thing back then.
I mean, as like much as they are now. Missus
Wheeler's mom, that's what didn't think.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
What's the famous movie that started all this.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
Graduate, the graduate are correct. Maybe I'm just ignorant, and
this is like, well, maybe this has been a thing
in men's world for like ever, that women hot, older
women are just cool. The actor's name, I can't remember it.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
It's because Robert Redford.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
No, no, it wasn't Robert de Niro.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
No.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Dustin Hoffman, yes, who was not a good looking guy.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
I don't know what it looked like back then, but
I think it came out in the seven.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, I've never seen the graduate, are you okay? So
his academic advisor is interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries and she says,
I wrote this down. He was not really motivated. He
wanted to be a pharmacist. But you have to want

(09:49):
it bad enough to devote many, many hours to the
academic study, like to get to the end of it.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
I mean, I would love to be a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
But it was Dustin.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
It was Dustin Hoffen, and it kept.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Out in nineteen sixty second.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Ooh, that was really progressive then for that time eighty.
But if we watched it, we would be like, oh,
this is really not as scandalous to us. But I
bet that then it was. Yeah, but I thought it
was funny that he really wanted to be a pharmacist.
But like then the work that comes along with it,
that part wasn't appealing.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
I want a lot of things I still want to
work for exactly, I want a million bucks, but I
would love to be a doctor.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
But also the ten plus years in school doesn't seem
like what I want to do. So on July nineteenth,
nineteen eighty, the university officially expels him from the program
and says he's not eligible, like literally in the middle
of the year. Kicks him out because instead of taking

(11:00):
any responsibility for his own actions, Richard baggs Tanya to
use her status at the hospital to try to pull
strings for him. When she didn't, his behavior grew erratic
and angry and turned violent. After months of just increase

(11:21):
instability in this relationship, Tanya made the decision that she
was done. Two weeks later, on September eighteenth, Richard then
chooses to show up in class as if nothing had
ever happened.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Did she break it off with him?

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, so she breaks up with him, and then within
two weeks of that, so he gets kicked out of school.
His fiance kicks him out and breaks up with him. Yeah,
and within that two week time period, he just decides
to show up to Classic and and act as if
nothing like George to stand ths Seinfeld. Ye. So university

(12:08):
officials refuse to let him return, so he then appeals
the decision, writing letters and begging for a reconsideration. And
this goes like all the way up to like the
board directors meet to evaluate this and they unanimously vote
and you're done. So that afternoon they tell the secretary

(12:33):
to call Richard and let him know that their decision
is done and final and he is no longer welcome
at their school, and then they yet out of there.
So they people could sense that this man was starting
to become unstable because they all acted as if they

(12:54):
were in fear of him.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, So to the point where at three forty five
that same day, after he gets the phone called, two
professors see Richard driving towards the dean's office, recognize that
he seems worked up, and flip a U in head
and walk in the other direction. Meanwhile, Richard starts wandering

(13:20):
the halls carrying a large Manila envelope many believe hiding
a weapon. We don't know if that's what he was doing,
But it doesn't make.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Me wonder if you guys believe that, why.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Why did anyone call?

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Or are you are you seeing what had happened? Later,
knowing he's a Sustaine, that's a good point and then
saying I wonder because I will.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Say I mean to the point where at least in
the reenactment, he goes in and like asks the secretary
for the gene, yeah, when is he going to be back?
And she kind of placates to him like, oh, I
don't know if he's coming back in today, and he's
like fine, I'll just wait, and he's like pasting around
and acting all erratic and aggravated and carrying this gun

(14:05):
shaped envelope. Why didn't anyone alert campus security or the
local law enforcement?

Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, but it makes me wonder if you guys if
that really was a thought at the time or it
was just kind of like thinking back after hearing all
the news and saying, oh.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
Man, yeah, I wonder. Yeah. So Richard leaves the school,
not getting to talk to anybody in person. Three hours later,
Tanya would come home from work, and before she could
even step out of her car, a man to approached
the driver's side window and fired three rounds into her
head and face. Yeah, it's terrible. Witnesses recognized the shooter

(14:50):
as Richard. Police later learned that he had recently purchased
a forty five caliber handgun. Unfortunately, by the time paramedics arrived,
Tanya was pronounced dead, according to Detective Warren Miller with
the Kansas City Police Department. Six days later, Canadian authorities

(15:12):
found his Richard's car abandoned nearly one thousand miles north
of Kansas City. He had been seen by two witnesses
in the area and then vanished. Two months after the murder,
Tanya's parents and Yugoslavia received a letter unsigned and did
you get the postmark date on that? I missed it

(15:32):
the first time I watched it. It was postmarked two
days before the murder.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
That's what they said in the Yeah, there was postmarked
two days before her murder, which is wild.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, so this was premeditated one hundred percent. The handwriting
on the envelope was later confirmed to be Richards and
I have part of the letter. I tried to find
the whole I couldn't find it in its entirety, and
I did find one that has more than I'm going

(16:07):
to say to you, but it gets into like calling
her all kinds of names and stuff, and there's just
no reason for me to do that. So it says,
your daughter has been executed in Kansas City, Missouri. She
has caused so much grief, anguish, and turmoil to so
many Americans. This act was necessary. It looked like as

(16:30):
I was reading it, the pieces that I could find,
it's like he tried to write it like a state official,
almost like.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
It doesn't matter, you're a monster.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Doing that to his parents parents.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Despite sightings in Canada, Missouri, and Minnesota over the years,
Richard has nowhere to be found. And that's kind of
where on some all mysteries leaves us. They give us
an age progressed photo of him.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, they show multiple pictures. Yeah, all right, I have
a bad feeling about this. Give us our update.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Unsolved to date, he is one of Kansas City's longest
sought few fugitives. He has family members throughout Missouri as
well as in Minnesota, and Richard is officially wanted for
capital murder. He is six feet tall weighs one hundred

(17:33):
and forty five pounds, brown hair, brown eyes, surgical scars
running vertically underneath each under arm. He had to have
his sweat glands removed because he sweat profusely so much gross.
If you have that, I apologize. You are not a
gross person. But this man is a monster, So I
will make fun of everything about him that I can.

(17:53):
And he has friends and families throughout Saint Louis and Minnesota.
And his birthdate is July twelfth, nineteen fifty seven. What
would that make him today.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Nineteen fifty seven, sixty eight.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yes, he's likely he's still alive, so I did read
the FBI appears to have both of his parents have
passed away. Anytime there is anything to do with his family,
because he has got like a sister and some cousins
and stuff like that. His cousin was actually the one
that introduced him to the girl he would go on

(18:31):
to murder, so he was close with them. They've attended
like all of their funerals and stuff like that, hoping
that he would show up. He never has. According to
their family, he hasn't contacted them since like several days
prior to the murders. I guess in two thousand he
was suspected to also maybe having to do with some

(18:54):
sort of robberies taking place up and down one of
the interstates around that area, but nothing. So I read
an article that in England there is a man that's
really well known for like very accurate age progress photos.
He stepped in and offered his services for that. I'll

(19:15):
go ahead and post those. But yeah, he likely is
out there. They believe he's more than likely still living
in America and probably hasn't gone too far from the
Midwest area that he was comfortable with.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Interesting, Yep, that's a while. So in the last few
weeks we've had him and then that family annihilator yeah
never get caught.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, but this one, this guy's had far less resources,
and he's also a narcissistic ahole. I just can't imagine
that he hasn't gone on to like which.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Makes me wonder when he drove to Canada, because at
least in the enacting they show that he was like
in a wooded area where they think maybe he went
into the woods.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
They have theorized that, but you know, and of course
you can only search on it. They said that they
that area was not uninhabited, it was actually a pretty
popular area. That's yeah, and they searched it, but that
is definitely it's still it's still an option on the
table because it can't be ruled out till.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
By now, like yeah, anything left, they would have had
to find its remains within like five or yeah. Ye,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
I hope he hasn't had a comfortable night's sleep since then.
I hope he's miserable. And I was constantly looking over
his shoulders and that Karma is not his boyfriend. Well,
all right, okay, what do you got for us, Ben Jammon?

Speaker 2 (20:52):
I got an I don't know, a weird one.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
It is a weird I do love a good conspiracy
theory or government cover up.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
All right, we're gonna get told to stall the stall
the stall the story stally the story of Paul Whipki.
All right, Paul was and joined the military, joined the army,
graduated and in like the mid fifties, and shortly after

(21:24):
he graduated, now you know, he was in RTC, graduated
and joined the military. Shortly after that, he went to
aviation school, graduated from that, and then he was posted.
He was assigned to Fort ord Award. Yeah or.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
I never heard of it, Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
In California in July of nineteen fifty six. So while
he was there, he's he was a lieutenant. But then
in the summer of nineteen fifty seven, he was posted
the Camp Desert Rock in Nevada over the summer and

(22:10):
he was flying observation planes for atomic bomb testing, which.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Is no, it's never failed to me that I was.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Still testing atomic bombs, but not fifties like Cold War.
So yeah, and during that time he was exposed to radiation.
After he gets back to California, he starts having.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Like major problems.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
They kind of just skim over it if you notice,
like they just literally kind of sit and then move on.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
But he lost all of his teeth, didn't he or
something crazy?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah. Yeah, he had watches on his skin and then
he had to have all of his teeth removed in
dentures because.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, that's not a little bit of radiation poisoning.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah. Yeah, So while he was there, they said like
he was given and they they kind of talked about
so his brothers on there and they also have his
commanding officer interviewed. Later we'll kind of get into that.
But he gets back from that, and they say he's

(23:23):
kind of like reclusive, which is not usually himself. He's
acting differently. They were giving him. They said he had
like responsibilities of a captain, but even though he was
only a lieutenant, so he was taking what pretty much
he was taking out more responsibility. He was stressed, he
was studying for it, he was working late. Whatever that was,

(23:45):
they don't tell us exactly what it is, but so
he's acting weird anyways. July tenth, nineteen fifty eight, he
leaves the fort and military base Fort Ord late in
the after noon, says he's going to be just going
to Monterey, which is supposedly only a mile away, and

(24:06):
he's going to be back like the next day. He
never returns, so next day he doesn't show up that all.
Next week he's deemed a wall, which is is a
wall stand for.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
A w A L l awall awl ol away without permission.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Without leave.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
So after thirty days.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
He is That's why I could never be in the military.
The fact that someone says you're not allowed to go
somewhere because you don't have permission. That right there, just
even thinking that someone could have that much.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Power over me, No, absently without leave means that just
like any job.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
I know it means. But that's also why I don't
have a boss and a job because I.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Was I'm saying to any work, if you don't show
up on Monday and you hadn't given them a reason
why you're not show up, you're technically absent without leaving.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
It's no call, no show. Yeah, but the military, you
sign up, it's a little bit more of a commitment
than just a job, right you sign over. Like I'm
just saying to you, this makes me feel like I
can't breathe and like I'm suffocating when someone says that
you could potentially be absent without leave because if I
just chose that I wanted to go somewhere that I

(25:34):
have to get permission to do, it makes me feel
like I can't breathe.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
We all have to get leave to like be absent.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
I don't have to get leave.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
So anyways, after thirty days, he's declared a deserter.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
And he's not seen a yet, and again there's charges
for that. If I just don't show back up at
my job at the cheesecake factory, no one's pressing charges.
That is true, Okay, See, so that's where the suffocation
comes in.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
All right. August seventeenth, nineteen fifty eight, Fish and game
Warden find whip Key's abandon car in Death Valley, which
is like five hundred miles away. It's a ways away,
I know.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
And they said what the temperature was that day?

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Earned in twenty It is August, I know.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
But I'm also like, yeah, welcome to the desert man.
We get that here. I don't know if we've ever
hit one twenty, but we've gotten to one to eighteen
and that was a lot. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, So August seventeen, so he's been now missing for
five weeks, okay, but game Warden, he he kind of notices,
like the cars is there, there's stuff in the vehicle,
the keys are still in the ignition. It just doesn't
seem right. So I'm going to find out. The military
does a little bit of investigation. There's a gas receipt

(26:53):
and it places him in Mojave, California, on July eleventh,
which is the day after he left. And they also
found motel records that said that he stayed at a
White Sands motel the night of July tenth to eleven,
so the day he left, and supposedly people claim that

(27:15):
he left there like the next day in civilian clothes
in his car. His car's pretty sweet, at least the car,
and they reenacted. So the Army just puts this down there.
He decided he was too stressed over everything he was doing,
and he decided to park his car and walk away

(27:35):
from it all and die in the desert. Which, yeah,
but we get his brother and he doesn't think so.
He thinks some things just don't add up. He comes
to find out that the day after his brother leaves,

(27:58):
the military cleaned down his room and like emptied it
from all personal belongings, which technically even if for deserters,
like they're supposed to contact the family, Yeah, for personal belongings.
And plus this question is why would you empty at
his room just one day from him being missing?

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, thirty days before he's officially declared.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, you don't even know if he's injury. He could
have been in a car, like, you know, there's a
million things that could have been done.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
So supposedly they just throw us out there that an eyewitness,
we have no idea who this eyewitness is, says that
they saw his car being driven by a man in
a military uniform four weeks after he went missing. That's
all the information they give you. I have no clue,
no idea. So but as I said, he left in

(28:54):
civilian clothes, so he wasn't in his uniform. Yeah, all right. Also,
there was a pile of cigarette butts outside of his car,
and Paul didn't smoke, So what was going on there?
Did you see how many cigarettes?

Speaker 1 (29:10):
There was an aggressive amount of fifty aggressive amount of cigarettes.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, yeah, at least yeah, like I said in the reenactment,
there's a lot. So and then the military didn't even
like go out to the desert and look for his body.

Speaker 4 (29:24):
For like nine months supposedly, that is crazy.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah. So Carl is his brother. He he just doesn't
think any of this adds up. He just wants to
find the truth, like what happened to my brother? What's
going on? Like and he even says, like listen, he
thinks his brother is involved, and with you know the

(29:51):
what's the bond?

Speaker 1 (29:52):
You know James Bond? He said Bond? Oh, I thought
you said Bond. No, the bombing Pearl Harbor Hiroshima.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
That him flying for the nuclear bomb stuff. Oh, he
was doing observation flights for that anyways. Okay, so we
get his commanding officer, Charles Lewis. He gets interviewed and

(30:28):
he even says like, once he found out that he'd
been declared a deserter, He's like, no, no, that does
not see it.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Didn't add up with what he was known for.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
No, it did not sound like Paul. He's like, he
would not. So he starts making calls, and he said
pretty much when he made a call and was asking
about it, they told him, hey, man, drop it. You
just need to let this go. And so then he
tells of a story where in nineteen fifty seven, so

(31:01):
a little while before he disappeared, he was out on
the and like outside he saw Paul talking to two
men in civilian clothes, which from being on a military base.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
They stand out.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, yeah, and he noticed that they hadn't gone through
like the right buildings and whatever to be out there.
So he walks up to him, like, who are you
and let me see your ID. So they show him
his ID, their military ideas says the names matched the
picture and the guy's matched the picture on the ID.
So he's like, all right, have a good day. But

(31:40):
he notices that they're talking to Paul, and they they
keep coming around multiple times, but he doesn't know who
they work for, what branch of the military they work for,
but they continue to come around and talk to Paul.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
So that's all we know that is always wearing people
just like men in black, show up knocking on your door,
ask questions.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
So he does say his cent officas listen. At that time,
the CIA was recruiting. Oh was the fifties, he said so,
and Paul's credentials would have been he would have made
a great recruit. So it's possible these guys worked for them.
He doesn't know, but yeah, that's what he thinks. So also,

(32:25):
supposedly Paul had said to his brother that he was
going to be on a special assignment, he was going
to make a name for himself, but he never gave
any other details. So that's kind of where his brother
thinks that with everything he was involved in with that
that his brother might have been recruited by the CIA,

(32:46):
and then something happened and he just kind of wants
to know. So then they just throw this in the end.
They also say that there was another weird thing. Paul's
friend Charles guess who served with him at Desert Rock

(33:08):
with those the flying the planes for the nuclear bombs.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Eleven days after Paul vanished, he died in a plane crash,
and he was The plane was finally found with his
remains in the north of Death Valley. But the plane
wreckage had a different serial number than the serial number

(33:33):
that was logged logged of the plane that he left in.
That's all you get on that.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, maybe weird, but also could be a clerical error.
Maybe humans made mistakes when they're writing numbers down.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
But they're just saying, Okay, these two guys are connected.
They were good friends, you know, all right. So Robert
Stack comes in, like, what happened? What's going on? Is
there a conspiracy with the government all that? Yeah, but
he does say that in nineteen eighty two, the Army
changed Paul's status from deserter to died in the line

(34:06):
of duty, So they, I guess they looked at it,
which makes sense because if he did that, I mean,
if something happened to him out in the desert while
he was still on active duty. Yeah, so what happened
Carl's continued to look and try to finanswers his brother.

(34:28):
All right, that's what it's all mission.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Thanks anything update, No, no, I didn't think so.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Sounds like his brother has passed away several years ago
and technically nothing new has come out. Yeah, no, remains,
no nothing, and the government's not said anything. The only
thing that you're going to get was from that nineteen
eighty two.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yeah, no government agency's gonna be like, actually, oh myeah.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's said, but it does not.
I've found multiple articles talking about it.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
But do you have any theories about what happened?

Speaker 2 (35:08):
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, it's weird, right, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
I don't know. Yeah, I mean I'd read an article
that it is a very strange theory that someone would
decide to walk out in the desert in the middle
of the summer and that's how they decide that they
want to deal with their stress and kill themselves. Yeah,
I agree. You know, that's not how usually people end things.

(35:40):
His brother thinks like they raise. His brother thought that
he was recruited. He left, he joined the CIA, the
CIA or the government or the Army intelligence because and
we do know that Army Intelligence of the CIA were
working closely together at that time, we had that other
story of that guy that disappeared kind of yeah thing,

(36:04):
but and that they're the ones that took his car
out there and just left it, you know, and he
went off on some mission and shot down over Russia
or something, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Interestbably, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
I mean, really, you're just throwing guesses at the wall
at this point.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it could be the
beginning of some spy novel movie or something.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah. Yeah, a lot of it doesn't make sense. But
I think we're not getting a lot of the story.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
Yeah, and when the CIA may or may not be involved,
I don't think you're going to get a lot of
the information.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
I mean I do. I do believe his commanding officers
saying like these guys were coming around and they're talking
to him constantly.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, that's got to stand for something.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah. And on top of it, it's not like he
saw him and he just sees it in passing, like
he literally walked up and demanded their d like, so
that is something you're going to remember. Yeah. So I
don't know, And for his commanding not just say like, yeah,
it didn't fit that he would just be a dessert. Yeah, okay,
all right, I'm going to take that with that. It's

(37:18):
one thing for the family to say absolutely not he
would the families.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
I think the family's always going to have a different
perspective than someone that's maybe less objective or has a
different Yeah, it's not as personally involved me.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
We think the best of our family.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, but that's the family's for.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know, what do you think?

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I mean, it was a weird time. I've told you before.
I don't trust the CIA, and I'm sure they and
I know I'm not even sure. I know that they
do a lot of good, but I think that it
has come with doing a lot of shady bad things.

(38:03):
So yeah, I mean, is a CIA recruiting people and
then saying if you want this, you got to disappear
or whatever. Yeah, I could see that. I don't. They
did all kinds of terrible things to people in the
name of research and science and national security. So yeah, okay, Well,

(38:27):
are you ready for your lost love?

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Okay. I will try to stay on topic, but I
was slightly annoyed at the beginning of this, and you
will find out here shortly why Catherine Brickford was nineteen
when she quote fell in love unquote, and I use

(38:53):
air quotes for that with Andrew Rossman, a man twice
her age. Uh No more information to be found on
him in my deep dive, So good for him. I
was nineteen thirty two in Lake Placid, New York, at
the height of the Great Depression. And Andrew, according to

(39:14):
Unsolved Mysteries, was not a creepy older man, but was
a rugged outdoorsman who made us living hunting and trapping
in the Aniron Deck Mountains. They also failed to mention
that he was married with a family. Just thought i'd
throw that out there.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
So what you're sayings you already have.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
This man is garbage, you already have. They're painting him
as this, like as this like romantic story that this
like macho older daddy figure like swoops in. No, he
had a reputation from everything I read of like grooming
young girls, go back to your wife and kids, My guy,

(40:00):
keep your rugged outdoorsman stuff sounds like to yourself, sounds okay.
But he was quote unquote not the marrying kind. Yeah,
because he was already married.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
He loved how they said that. But then they don't
mention that he was alreadcommended.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, they failed to mention that. But according to her,
she was in love again because she's nineteen and for
the time and place, this relationship was not really widely
accepted and was considered unconventional. Yeah, because he could have
been her father. Uh. They never married, but lived together

(40:40):
on and off and had two children. He basically kept
her as like a live in mistress. They had a
daughter named Gwen and a son named Gary. Sadly, according
to Unsolved Mysteries quote, family life and responsibilities proved to
be just too much for Andrew, so he left. He's

(41:03):
a dirt bag. They romanticized him in this big time.
And I have a problem with that because he's a
dirt bag. So she goes to work as a waitress
because not only did he leave, because from my understanding,
from what I can find, he was actually fairly comfortably
well off, maybe not loaded, but made an income. Left her,

(41:28):
which at that time was hard. It was hard to do,
left her with two children, penniless with nothing, abandoned every responsibility. Yeah,
and so leaving not a real man. No, And so
she went to work as a waitress to try to
support the children. However, she was often made to feel

(41:51):
ashamed of being an unwit mother. Despite this, there was
one bright light right group of people in her inner circle,
a family name the Witches, the Winches Wynchs Winches, who
had known her since childhood and never wavered in their support.
These are the good Christian people, or I guess they.

(42:13):
I think he was baptized Catholic. This to me is
what it means to be someone of faith. That they
did not care that she was an onwed young mother.
They loved her and supported her regardless, good people.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Because she's interviewed, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Their daughter. I think it wasn't or maybe they were
both interviewed. In the winter of nineteen thirty five, Catherine
had Gary baptized. That's the youngest son. Despite local gossip,
the Wenches went to the baptism and stood by her

(42:51):
and her children. But by then she was in deep
financial trouble and was actually like kicked out of her
apartment and not allowed to re enter until she got
caught up on her rent. So she had arranged for
her daughter to go to her parents' house. She had
found a job working for her uncle who had a restaurant,

(43:14):
but it was like it was like two hours away
or something like that, and so she asked them if
they would take Gary until she could kind of get
on her feet. Catherine found herself facing a very difficult decision,
as any mother could. She was trying to earn a
living for her children, but that that also meant being

(43:36):
separated from them. However, this amazing little family was more
than happy to take in Gary. Several days later, Catherine
left to go work at the restaurant with the knowledge
that Gary would be well cared for by the Wenches,
and Glenn, who was only three at the time, went
to live with her grandparents. Over the next three years,

(43:57):
Catherine visited Gary and Gwen whenever she could, though throughout
this period Gwen stayed with her grandparents and Florence took
care of Greg. Gwen believed that Catherine had planned this
arrangement to be temporary, however, or as she wanted to
get herself together and be able to support her family. However,
it never really worked out that way. We don't get

(44:19):
any more information. I tried to find some more information.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
It's the thirties.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
It just sounds like, yeah, we couldn't I couldn't find
out any if there was any other circumstances taking place,
but she just never really seemed to be able to
get back on her feet. Florence tells us in the
interview that it was difficult for Catherine to visit because
she was working and was at least two hours away.

(44:45):
She wanted to be with Gary and Gwen, but was
not able due to her circumstances. I will say that
even this family being interviewed, that someone literally, without sending
to us, dumped their baby off onto their family and said,
can you watch this child for a few weeks? It
turned to years, years, and they still spoke nothing but

(45:06):
highly about her. And then in nineteen thirty nine, when
Gary was three, for some reason, the child county welfare
officials contacted the mother I'm not sure why, and they
wanted her to sign papers of which she thought she

(45:27):
was agreeing to Florence to continue the role as the
foster parent. So that's what I think was a little confusing. Florence,
I believe was this family's eldest daughter who was not married.
Does that make sense, Yeah, And in fact, the papers

(45:50):
gave the county the authorization to put them up for adoption,
so it seems like there was some kind of miscommunication.
I don't know why the officials child Welfare services got involved.
They have no they don't give us any of that information.
How they came the picture or yeah, what was the problem? Yeah,

(46:12):
and Florence was advocating heavily to continue to be this
child's foster parent. But at the time she was unwed
and I think living with her parents, so she wasn't,
according to her on until mysteries, not eligible to be
a foster parent because she was single and so unknown

(46:37):
to everybody. The county now had authorization to put him
up for adoptions, and then when officials told Florence that
he was ready to be adopted, she even then offered
to adopt him, but again she was not permitted to
because of her circumstances. So then her parents tried to
adopt him, and they said that they were too old.

(47:01):
Wild Yes, So the neighbors of the Winches even took
up a petition asking the county to let Florence, like,
let them keep Gary. Unfortunately, no, no, no was the answer,
and in the early in the spring early spring of
nineteen thirty nine, a county welfare worker showed up at

(47:23):
the door and took them away, like took him away
for adoption, like literally would not even let him pack
a bag. Yeah, so Lawrence never even got a chance
to talk to Gary that he was leaving the family.

(47:45):
Nothing was done to prepare this kid to just put
him in a new home, and she'd always hoped in
one way or another she would be able to stay
with him or either her or Catherine. So we kind
of get just a little bit more of like the
backstory that Florence is able to connect with Catherine, it's

(48:07):
too late, like Gary has been taken to the Children's
Aid Society, which we've actually talked about before. They've been
problematic in several other stories and including like the Box
Car Children issues too. So long story short, Katherine and

(48:31):
Gwen are able to be reunited because the mother and
daughter because again she was being raised by her grandparents. Sadly, though,
in nineteen eighty four, Catherine died and never got a
chance to tell Gary that she loved him, that this
was a misunderstanding, she did not know what was happening,

(48:53):
and just spent her life trying wanting to get them
back together, and that she felt so guilty for losing him,
so we get a little background. Gary was born in
Sacchran Lake, New York, on June sixth, nineteen thirty five.
Brown hair, brown eyes. Birth certificate. His main may probably

(49:17):
was spelled Gary with two rs, but later had been
changed and might have been listed as Rossmann. So that's
kind of where unsolved mysteries leaves us.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
All right, Okay, update, update, I think this is gonna
be a good one.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Unresolved Okay. In nineteen ninety five, the Children's Aid Society
told Gwen that Gary's records were sealed by law because
he was adopted, and that they would not be able
to help her locate her brother. So then in two thousand,
Gwen got in contact with one of Gary's daughters. She

(50:00):
learned that he had been adopted by a couple named
mister and Missus Ernest Ludstorm of Long Island in nineteen
forty one, and renamed him Robert Ernest Ludstorm. In nineteen
fifty seven, he married a woman named Maureen and had
three children, Kristen, Bruce, and Debbie. Surprisingly, though, Robert abandoned

(50:29):
his family in nineteen sixty four, literally one day left
and never came home, leaving his wife and children behind.
One of his old classmates randomly contacted his sister and
learned that he had changed his last name to Keegan.

(50:50):
I don't know if that was before or after he
abandoned his family, but there's that, and she also suspected
that it was. She got the impression this man does
not want to be found, and in two thousand and one,
Gwen was actually able to reunite with his children and
got to know them as Aunt Gwen. A few years later,

(51:12):
Debbie passed away, Gwen, Chris, and Bruce had began searching
together to try to see what has happened him. Sadly,
Gwen passed away in twenty eighteen at the age of
eighty four. In her own obituary, she did list that
she was predeceased, however, by her brother. But no one
has been able to confirm whether he's actually been ever

(51:33):
found and accounted for. From what I read on Reddit
and a few other places, it does not appear that
he's quote unquote missing, as in, we don't know what
happened to him. It seems to be that he abandoned
his life and walked away.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah, kind of crazy, huh, Yeah, So it is a
sad story. Yeah, definitely a different ending than most of
the lost loves, Even the ones that maybe started in
like tragic situations usually have some sort of healing or

(52:15):
resolve coming together. This one seems like unfortunately she got
to know where you know, her nieces and nephews before
she passed away, so I guess. And they even said
in one of the interviews that it was nice because
she was able to unlock a lot of their unknown
family history.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
That's good, I guess. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
No word on the deadbeat dad though from New York. Yeah,
he never reappeared into the picture. Okay, Ben Jammon story
number four, number.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Four, Ken, I didn't like the way they told the
stars all over the place. Yeah, we're back and forth
and back and forth. It was all the place. I
didn't like it. I didn't like it.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Okay, just making that known. You know what. I don't
know if anyone has ever thought Ben sounds like he
really enjoyed that story.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Yeah, I didn't like this. I mean, it's it's an
interesting story. I give you that. Okay. We get told
about Jim Rice, okay, him and his wife as Starte
Starte Davis.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yeah, she seems like a character.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah. So they they go to Saint Croix to build
their dream home in the mid eighties. Okay, but Jim disappears,
and this is his story. He's a wealthy man. He
was a contractor, you know, like a intracting business, had

(54:02):
done well for himself. He met a Starte in nineteen seventy,
left his first wife yep, and kids. A lot of
dead beat guys, and this a lot of dead beat guys.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
It being the victims.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
But yeah, he is a victim, and I'm not taking
that away, but I don't have a lot of respect
for men that ditched their family, men and were cheat
on their wives. He left his wife to marry a
starte and he marries her. She has two three boys
or three boys. Yeah, okay, but as you might come

(54:43):
to find out, this marriage wasn't great either. It was volatile,
up and down. It was a mess, clearly. Okay. So
before they moved to Saint Croix, because that's where they started, ye, I.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Was very confused as to why that was the starting point.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
He's in Saint Croix. He calls his daughter, he's still
in con it, clearly has still a relationship, and tells her, hey,
I'm coming to the States to have surgery. I'll be
there in a week. He never shows up. Yeah, he disappears.

Speaker 1 (55:21):
Yeah, And then we get told back from the beginning
of how he.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Met this lady left his first wife and kids to
start a new life with her, and she must have
left her husband. I don't know, I'm making an assumption,
but she'd already had been married and had three sons.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
And then their marriage is a mess, okay, for a
lot of reasons.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, so sorry, I'm trying to find my notes here.
So they in nineteen seventy nine moved to Hawaii to
start a charter business. This while Gym's out of town.
In nineteen eighty one, their boat, yacht they say on there,

(56:07):
explodes while Astarte's son and I was going to get
confusing and they just, oh my gosh, this whole story
just irritates me. So Starte's son, Noble, was cleaning the
boat with gasoline at two in the morning, as one does.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Don't you clean with gasoline in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
All of a sudden explodes and Noble's hurt, and this
is a big disaster. Gym's out of town. Come to
find out the authorities come to find out that they
were like in over their head on this yacht. They
owed a ton of money, but guess what they had insurance?

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Insurance.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Yeah, so magically, Yeah, that happens the Hawaii after that,
as you might imagine, because guess what charges were brought forth.
They go to California. They're never extra died. Back to California.
Back to Hawaii, they and they do say they got them.

(57:13):
To California, they separate jam In a Starte okay, which I.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Would like you to know she changed her name to
a Starte. Yes, I know it was not original. You guys,
this woman Princess Consuela Banana hammock her name and if
you don't get that reference, we can't be friends.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
No idea. What's talking about?

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Phoebe Buffet from Friends changes her name to Princess Consuela Banana. Anyways,
I just was like, this is the same person that
gets Vanity Blates. Is that she changes her name to us.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Starte, which is like the goddess of love.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Yes, thank you, Yes, something ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Yes, all right. So they get back to California, they
separate a star Trek files for bankruptcy in nineteen eighty one,
but she like does something fraudully with the documents. We're
not told the specifics, but she is arrested and charged
and goes to prison, federal prison, does like two years.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
She's a con artist. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
While she's in prison, Jim visits her and she convinces
Jim that she's changed, that things are going to work.
So when she gets out of prison in nineteen eighty three,
they get back to.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Jim's never implicated it. I thought he had gotten into
trouble for things previous to this. No, he was okay, No,
that's what saying.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
The yacht explorder, he was at it, he was out
of town and clearly her son that did it. Yeah,
and that they're interviewing an FBI. He's like, yeah, you're
cleaning your yacht at two in the morning, and then you.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Admit, oh, yeah, I was out in the middle of
the I had cleaning my yacht with gasoline and an
explosion happened. Whoopsie Daisy, total by accident.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
And like I said, these charges all came because she
was found for banks because they were separated.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Oh okay, got it, got it whatever.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
So they get back together. Then they moved to Saint Croix.
Now we're back to where we started, okay, to build
their dream home, and they're going to start over, and
she's rehabilitated because she's been to prison and she's a
better person. July twentieth, Jim calls his daughter Kathleen says, Hey,
I'm going to be coming to San Francisco. I have
to have soulder surgery. Nine days later, what kind of

(59:38):
surgery shoulders?

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I think you said slolder surgery.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Whatever it is, shoulder surgery. He never shows up. Kathleen
continues to try to call, call, Call. It takes her
two weeks to finally hit through and talks to Estarte
and she first tells her, oh, well he ran off
with a girl from Australia. So then she keeps calling

(01:00:04):
trying to get more answers, and she goes, well he
actually went to Miami, and so she can't get a
straight yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
She's like, uh no, my gud, this isn't making any sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
So Kathleen hires a private investigator, which I came to
find out it was a retired FBI.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
Okay, do we ever find out what Kathleen does for
a living, because do you see the mc mansion? She
walked out of on her cobblestone like circle driveway to
check her mail. Later on in the reenactment, well, she.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Does inherit everything her father has.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Dude, that chick is loaded, and she's interviewed in her
like little snike comments about.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Oh, she doesn't like a snuff day. She does not
like her dad's I was.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Here for it, and then was she like hopefully, so
walked out in her like little clickety heels to get
her mail with her mansion in the background. I was like,
I want to be friends with you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
She shouldn't like her. I'm with her.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Yeah, I get it. Anyone that changes their name like
that to the Goddess of love. You're the same people
that were sunglasses inside at night.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
So she hires Dennish Shira Shira he So he starts
going down to Saint Croix and investigating this what happened
to Jim? Where is he clearly knowing? And the start's
not giving anybody any answers. No, So he comes to
find out that there was a customs declaration dated July

(01:01:33):
twenty eighth, nineteen eighty six, and it was supposedly signed
by Jim, but it's clearly a forgery.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
It's not his, not even a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Yeah, and then they he finds out that there was
an airline ticket, but the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Document being forged, you guys, was so that she got
power of attorney over all of his desk? Was that later? Oh?
Did I just I gave it away?

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Yeah? So that was the first thing he found. Was okay,
July twenty eight, so remind you. The last person to
talk to him and they know he's alive was July twentieth.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Right, he said he was going to be there in
a week.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
But yeah, we have no idea, We have no idea. Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
So July twenty eighth, a ticket was purchased to Miami
in Jim's name with two others. The investigator comes to
find out it was a Starte, her son Noble, and
Noble's girlfriend who actually got on the plane to Miami. Supposedly,

(01:02:39):
this is where the power attorney. July twenty first, a
Starte had filed documents giving herself control of Jim's estate,
and there was this power the power of attorney was
technically in Kathleen's name, and she tried so what I
count to find out? They don't explain it very.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Good in Unsolved Mysteries.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
But she went with a fake power of attorney. So
she had cut and pasted, took the power of attorney document,
cut and pasted her name in it to make it
look like that Jim assets original power of attorney document
was in her name, that she had it, and though

(01:03:22):
she didn't, and it was a really bad cut and
paste job. And what she was trying to do. I
found this out after she was trying to move assets,
was trying to move money from one account to like
I guess, like this company this that was owned by
her son and her you know, so she was trying

(01:03:44):
to like shift all this money and all that and
take all of his assets. But that didn't go well anyway.
So and then he comes to find out that like
literally July twenty first around there she held a garage

(01:04:04):
sale and was selling.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
His truck, everything, all of this clothes, his tools, everything,
everything gone.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Trying to get rid of all of his stuff. So
four months later, Kathleen, the daughter receives a typed letter
in the mail, supposedly from Australia, claiming to be Jim,
saying he's runaway and hey whatever. She doesn't actually say

(01:04:32):
exactly yeah. But then we get an interview by the
FBI agent. He's like, dude, this was a terrible job
because in the letter it's it's not it's a typed
letter a typewriter. Yeah right, and there's this mistake and
it's I am one word word I am, And the

(01:04:54):
FBI just like, yeah, if you look at all of
us start.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
She spelled I am as an I am as in
one word.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Yeah, that was March.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
She all the time in all of her documents. Yeah,
what everything that she typed that was like she continually
kept making that grammar prayer.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
This woman was a forger and a counterfeiter and a
fraud scammer, but she was really bad at it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Yeah. So her Kathleen thinks she wants to nowhere dad
it's he pretty much says, I'm pretty certain my dad's
not alive, that he got dumped in the ocean somewhere
of Saint Croix and not to be and wants to know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
So.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
But we do get told nineteen eighty nine, start To
had been charged with bank and mail fraud because she
was trying to steal a hold of Jim's assets.

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
And mail fraud is like a hefty sentence, isn't it
typically Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
Yeah, so she was released on bail and she disappears shocking,
So they kind of tell us more, but this kind
of part of the update. So yeah, oh kind of
that's so she's wanted. Yeah, but we also what happened
to Jim? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Yeah, where is Jim? And now where is the start day?
What it's the update for us?

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Right? So nineteen ninety one, she was found and arrested
in Santa Barbara and she was charged with the bank
and mail front. She has sentenced to fifteen years. Okay,
come to find out, I don't know exactly when she

(01:06:44):
went to jail, but they say she was put in
a minimum security like immediate security person and then after
a little while she was moved to and I actually
found out later she went to Saint Croix in did time.
Then she got moved to a minimum security prison in California.
Where did you just like walk down? Yeah, just during something.

(01:07:09):
She just walked out And that was in ninety seven, Yeah,
walked out and hasn't been seen again. Two thousand and two,
she was picked up in Washington, went back finished her time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
And that second one was that an unsolved mysteries tip.
I think they said one of the two times.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
She was featured again in two thousand and two on
yeah okay, and she was featured on America's Most Want
Yeah so, yeah, that I think that was. And she
had a bunch of plastic surgery then to try to
like disguise herself. She was working, Yeah so. And I
read an article like she was working the books for
some construction company and was writing checks for herself and

(01:07:56):
was stealing from them. It was this lady's it is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
It's insane. People work harder to like do this kind
of stuff than if they just got job was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Finished her time. But according to Jim, his body was
never found. Yeah, she was never charged because they have nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
They have nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
The FBI does believe that she she's their number one.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Suspect for her son for sure had something to do
with that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Jim was officially declared dead in like nineteen eighty nine
or nineteen eighty eight.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
And you know that's still completely unsolved.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Yes, it's unsolved because they have nothing. And it happened
in Saint Croix, so yeah, and by the time anyone
knew about it, it was weeks later.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
And do you think that son was involved. Of course,
do you think that girlfriend was involved? That would be
by that's the weak link there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Only the thing we know about the girlfriend is what
the private investigator said that she was on the plane.
I have no idea, Yeah, but yeah, I do believe this.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Oh yeah, it was playing to help her with the
other things.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
I read an article from twenty twenty five, okay about
her and they were like trying to find her to
this day and appere she's still alive, living somewhere in California.
That would put her about ninety five years old. Wow,
they're in her nineties. But they cannot find any type
of death certificate anything like that, so they think the

(01:09:27):
last place she was known to be was in California.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
Tell you, one thing I've learned about people like that,
they don't change their ways. No, absolutely, And then getting
to be like this little old lady scam scams. It
makes it easier.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
But it's also possible this lady was a fraud, changed
her name.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Her son never got charged with anything though, dude, I
bet did you find anything about him?

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
So it looked like he testified at her trial. Of
course he did, Yeah, witness for her bank fraud and all. Yeah,
so he probably kind of deal, yeah, to testify and
find out his own mom, but didn't spill the beans up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
You're a scam artist, so yeah, that tracks you. You're
your number one priority.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
But unfortunately, clearly they clearly they did something to Jim. Yeah,
and that was never. The sad part about this story
is there's just because she did time for that stuff,
still is injustice.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
No, So yeah, is Jim's daughter still around? I don't know,
you don't know. Okay, wow, all right, that was quite
a lot in that episode, you guys. I thought it
was a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
Yeah, yeah, it was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
Even that lost love wasn't the worst.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
But yeah, we didn't end the way I was thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
No, it didn't. I was quite surprised to not be
able to bring you any sort of information. And then
with the twist that he abandoned his family too, I
was like, oh, yeah, all right, guys, that is your episode,
Season three, episode twenty one. Now we've reached the time

(01:11:13):
in the podcast where Ben and I have silly questions
and some shitty chat. If you were not into that,
please feel free to exit stage right. And for the
rest of our friends sticking around, Ben, Are you ready
for your question? You have to pick one Thanksgiving side

(01:11:38):
dish to keep and one to get rid of. What's
your favorite? And what one are you tossing in the trash.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Side dish?

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Yeah? And it can't be just some random side dish
like salmon dip that you don't already like. It has
to be already the ones that you the standard traditional ones.
What are you keeping? What are you tossing?

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
All right?

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Keeping? This is hard? I know two? Okay, yams and
mashed potatoes. Love them both? Okay, toss super easy, cranberry sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
I love cranberry sauce. Simple, that's an easy toss.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Toss it. I didn't even eat it. Yeah, last Thanksgiving,
Not that I dislike it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
You you think the ranking number one side dish for
you is either between the mashed potatoes and the yams.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
I would say yams only because we don't make them.
I can make mass potatoes with almost every meal.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
Yeah, I'm gonna leaning more towards yams.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
And the way you make it, guys, the way I
make yams, it's amazing. Had you ever had yams like that? Ever? No?

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
No, And I love them it's them.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
It is a how secret recipe.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Syrup makes it in like this caramel, brown sugar sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
Whiskey orange, yeah, sauce normal, and then you toast marshmallows
on top.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
They're delicious. I mean it is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
It's and they're not whipped. They're sliced like swimming in this,
like sliced yams.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
It's they're good brown sugar, butter, sauce, sewry sauce, and
they're so good. So if if I had to pick one,
it would be yams, toss one, cranberry sauce.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
And you guys, I make I make almost everything from
scratch for our Thanksgiving, including the cranberry sauce.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
This supermart one from last week.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
But it's still on my mind because every time I
spent six hours making this dinner and I I love
and here's something someone could come from another household and
sit down and think it's the worst food ever. I
don't care. It's for some reason. It is how I
like all of those things that I've honed that craft in,

(01:14:17):
and I'm like, why don't I do this like every
several weeks, like make some sort of giant meal like
this with these things because we don't eat it any
other time of year, like in this way, like I
don't make cranberry or I don't make komy cranberry sauce.
I don't make these candy jams any other time.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
No, in the candy yams are and I have always
loved jams. Yeah, I like just regular yams too, so
I'm a big fan, but we don't eat them a lot. Yeah,
probably should want all right, what about you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
My favorite side dish? I'm yeah. I mean it's kind
of the same thing. I love gravy soaked mashed potatoes
and turkey soaked and gravy. But I think because I
only make them once a year, would have to be

(01:15:09):
the candy jams.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Delicious.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
The getting rid of one is hard for me because
I love every single one of them, and I actually
like cranberry sauce with the turkey. I like the layer
of flavors on that. Honestly, If I had to get
rid of one only because it's like carbs, number three
would be stuffing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
You're gonna say that, And I.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Love the stuffing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
But if I already have this stuffing, how dare you?

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Yeah? And stuffing's actually the one thing that I semi
cheat on because I'm sorry stoved up stuffing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
It's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
It's good now. I church it up a bit. I
slice in some apples and sage sausage, and I do
I chercher up a bit. And I never in my life, ever,
ever ever cook stuffing inside of a turkey and then
eat that because that is foul. But yeah, if I

(01:16:11):
had to get rid of one just for Thanksgiving Day
that we can never have again, I'd have to dump
the stuffing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
It's an abomination.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Uh. But yeah, let us know, guys, what do you
And here's the thing. If all this food sounds delicious
to any of our international listeners and they'd like to
invite me and Ben over, I will come to your
house and I will cook you a full Sierra Thanksgiving
dinner as a way of thanking you, especially our fans
in the South of France that I've seen, download US, Australia, Germany,

(01:16:45):
and it will take any of you guys. We will
love you all. Yeah, we are excited. It's the holidays,
you guys. It's getting to be Christmas y, so we uh,
we're gonna have some fun the next couple weeks and
we will see you back again next week one. Then
and I recap another episode of

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
Bye h

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Murder of Dr. Tanya Kopric, Three Disappearances, Three Decades, One Unsolved Episode.

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics

All Episodes

The Murder of Dr. Tanya Kopric, Three Disappearances, Three Decades, One Unsolved Episode.

Stuff You Should Know