December 16, 2024 • 32 mins
How do we create cities where dreams can flourish for everyone, regardless of ability? This episode, featuring Mike Miller, the city manager of Muskogee, Oklahoma, resonates with personal stories of Mike's experiences, particularly with Craig Hospital where his daughter received care.
Accessibility isn't just about ramps and regulations—it's about creating places where everyone feels welcome. Mike brings to light the importance of moving beyond ADA compliance to embrace truly inclusive design in public projects.
Join us as we explore the delicate balance of building communities that prioritize inclusivity and the role individuals play in shaping environments that allow everyone to thrive.
Learn more about Mike Miller's daughter, Annie, who after sustaining a spinal cord injury in a ski accident, fearlessly reclaimed her life and passion for music with the help of her Craig team, family and community.
Meet Annie | Extraordinary Determination
For more information, transcriptions and behind-the-scene photos, visit https://craighospital.org/unstoppable
Craig Hospital is a world-renowned rehabilitation hospital that exclusively specializes in neurorehabilitation and research for individuals with spinal cord injury (SCI) and brain injury (BI). Located in Englewood, Colorado, Craig Hospital is a 350,000-square-foot, 93-bed, private, not-for-profit center of excellence providing a comprehensive system of inpatient and outpatient neurorehabilitation. https://craighospital.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jandel Allen-Davis (00:02):
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we
pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace cultures
click and what happens whenpeople are empowered to expand
the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
I am Dr Jandell Allen AllenDavis, ceo and President of
(00:26):
Craig Hospital, a world-renownedrehabilitation hospital that
exclusively specializes in theneurorehabilitation and research
of patients with spinal cordand brain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation.
I don't know if you know JudyHeumann.
(00:47):
Judy Heumann is not singularly,but she's one of the great
leaders that got the AmericanDisabilities Act passed in 1990,
and she passed it last year.
So, she is a hero in thedisability community and one of
the things that she said is thatpart of the problems that we
tend to think of equality, thatit's about treating everyone the
(01:07):
same, when it really isn't.
It is about equity, it's aboutfairness and it's about equity
of access, which was certainlyobviously at the core of what
the ADA is about.
I also say that the Americanswith Disabilities Act is
necessary but hardly sufficient,that we've got miles to go, and
you would know that better thanmany Mike and I am so thrilled
(01:30):
and honored to get a chance totalk with Mike Miller, who has
many connections to this workthat he'll talk about, but he is
the city manager of Muskogee,oklahoma, and has been doing
that for over seven years.
But there's other really coolthings that you may want to
share, so I'm just going to openup to you to tell us a little
bit about yourself, your careerand how it is that you and I get
(01:50):
to hang together.
Mike Miller (01:52):
Yeah well first, very generous of you to make the
offer.
I love to meet interestingpeople and we've already had a
brief conversation and got toknow people and talk about
mutual acquaintances and what asmall world it really is.
And so I grew up in Oklahoma.
My wife is named Holly HollyRosser Miller and she's from
Texas, and we have spent thelast 24 years in Muskogee,
(02:15):
oklahoma.
Both of us grew up in muchlarger towns and we didn't ever
anticipate living in a communityMuskogee size it's about 40,000
citizens in.
Muskogee.
But when we lived in Muskogeeit was because I was working for
a Native American tribe, theCherokee Nation, which was
headquartered about 20 milesaway, and I love working there,
but it was a place ofconvenience.
(02:37):
So we moved to Muskogee, thissmall town.
It seems small but reallybecame home for us.
It's really a place ofcommunity there, where people
get along, they pull together tomake the community a better
place.
And it has its flaws, likeevery community, but it's got so
much going for it and we reallyfell in love with it.
So we've lived there for about25 years work in Muskogee.
(03:05):
I always commuted other placesuntil I got the opportunity to
work for the city of Muskogeeand what we do there and what we
like to say is we get to makeour neighbors' lives better
every day.
Jandel Allen-Davis (03:12):
Oh, beautiful.
Mike Miller (03:13):
Yeah, so what we mean by that is, pardon me, I
was an English major in college,which of course prepares you
for lots of things.
Jandel Allen-Davis (03:21):
We have a daughter who's one of those and
I actually would agree.
Mike Miller (03:27):
Yes, I agree too.
I am a strong believer we canget off on that tangent in in
the humanities, making you abetter person overall.
But um, as a, and so um, thethe words in that phrase are
important.
Making, it's an action verb,it's you don't something doesn't
happen.
You don't make something unlessyou're doing it and you take a
positive, proactive action.
Our neighbors we're talkingabout us together neighbors, the
(03:50):
people around us make ourneighbors lives better every day
, and so, uh, that's what we getto do, and there's lots of ways
that that we get to do it.
Working for the city, and it's alot of things that people take
for granted.
So you expect that the watercomes into your house through
the faucet and that it leaves,however it leaves, down the
drain and you want it to leaveefficiently, and all those
(04:12):
things.
And that the police come whenthey're called and the
firefighters come when they'recalled and that the streets get
you where you need to go and thetrash gets picked up, and so
there's a lot of things that wetake for granted to go and the
trash gets picked up, and sothere's a lot of things that we
take for granted and peopledon't always say, oh I'm sure,
glad that worked right 100% ofthe time or 99.9% of the time.
So that's one of the things.
We just remind ourselves thatthat feeling of fulfillment
(04:36):
comes from doing something goodfor the people around you,
whether they know it oracknowledge it or not.
I feel like when I come toCraig, that there's people that
feel that way too.
Jandel Allen-Davis (04:44):
So what brings you or brought you to
Craig?
Talk a little bit about that.
Mike Miller (04:53):
So my daughter had a spinal cord injury while we
were on spring break here inColorado, and so she was 16
years old at the time.
She was kind of emergencytransferred to Children's
Hospital here in Denver area andthen she was in intensive care
for a long time more than amonth and then another ambulance
ride across town.
She was transferred here forinpatient and then some
outpatient therapy and shecaptured our hearts right away.
(05:16):
She has a way of doing that.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:18):
The irony that you have this role as a
city manager and I don't know ifMuskogee is city manager form
of government so you run thecity.
Just for those who don't know,city manager forms of government
are where you actually run it.
They may have a mayor, mayormay be part of city council, but
the real deal is you.
Mike Miller (05:38):
Yeah, the council and mayor.
They're the board of directorsand the mayor's the chairman of
the board, but then the personthat has to go do everything is
me, as the city manager, andyou've been doing that for over
seven years.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:47):
I know there are other things that may come
up in story as we talk in thisnext hour, but the irony that
the importance of placemaking Icould imagine took on new
importance or even just sort ofnew perspectives through the
lens of Annie's injury and I'dlove just to get some sense of
how have your perspectiveschanged and what stories has
(06:08):
your, just the way that this haspersonally touched you.
How has it changed yourperspectives about this whole
idea of accessibility anddisability rights and city and
placemaking?
Mike Miller (06:18):
Well, you're right, I think from my background,
from my perspective, it changeddramatically two years ago,
right, and so I can see theperspective of people that don't
understand the challenges.
And so one of my perspectivesis that I work in a beautiful
old city hall that's 100 yearsold, like literally 100 years
(06:38):
old, and they do have anelevator that they didn't
originally have, but my daughteris terrified of it because it
is just about as wide as it'syou know probably a 50 or 60
arrow, you know, well maintainedelevator.
But so my daughter used to cometo my office a lot and she
doesn't as much anymore becausethere's that, uh, even though
(06:59):
there's an elevator, it's oneshe can't turn around and she
can wheel in and then have toback out, and so you don't think
about those things.
We had and we do have at thecity accommodations for people
that can't get upstairs.
You can understand from bothperspectives, before her injury
and after.
It's kind of like differentlayers that you see and you're
(07:21):
like oh okay, the things that Ihadn't thought about.
As far as you know the quotethat you read earlier, it's not
about fairness, it's aboutequity of access.
Well, you know, there's lots ofthings.
The fairness is there's anelevator.
The equity of access is thatit's not really feasible for
people in wheelchairs, and sothat change of perspective has
(07:44):
been.
I'll admit I feel a littleguilty that I hadn't thought of
those things before, right?
I mean, you want to think ofyourself as empathetic or caring
or trying to help others, andyou're like oh now it's more
important to me because mydaughter's situation, but maybe
it obviously should have beeneven before that.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:04):
Well, I would say I'm here to the extent
you need me to absolve you ofthe guilt that's why we're
talking about this today is thatthere's this.
What's that phrase?
That which has been seen can'tbe unseen.
Mike Miller (08:14):
Yes.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:15):
And I too, until five years ago, sort of
considered myself someone whoreally thought about equity.
But I can tell you that wedidn't.
We, the universal, we's,haven't thought about it through
the lens of accessibility.
Some of I could imagine thatequity would be Annie could
bounce into the building, takethe stairs, probably, I hope
(08:35):
unless you're on the a millionthfloor.
Mike Miller (08:36):
In that case I'd say, take the elevator too.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:40):
That equity is that?
How do we make it as easy aspossible and as welcoming,
whether it's restaurants?
Well now, I can't walk intorestaurants without seeing.
How would a power chair everget around all these tables?
Mike Miller (08:53):
Well, I had that experience, that exact
restaurant experience.
My brother and I were going tolunch the other day and I called
my wife and my daughter andsaid, hey, come join us.
And then we got to therestaurant about five minutes
before and I'm like, oh, wecan't go to this restaurant.
It was an older restaurant.
It had, you know, flagstonesteps.
It didn't have a ramp, wow, youknow, even still, I hadn't
(09:18):
noticed those things.
So the people that are patientsand friends of Craig I'm not
illuminating them by sayingthose things, but one of the
things you said earlier.
It reminded me of somethingthat I did learn here, that I
stuck with me for the two yearsplus since Annie's been gone
From the hospital.
One of the I don't remember ifit was a therapist or one of the
(09:43):
people said go out and try todo stuff, even if it's hard, or
you can't do it or you need help.
And they said people will notknow if you sit at home and
don't try.
Let people try and help youovercome those.
(10:19):
You know, either in that day, inthat moment or, by design,
long-term.
And that's what and I I thoughtof that here because it's hard,
I will say from my daughter'sperspective and me being with
her.
She doesn't want to be thatperson.
She doesn't want to be thecenter of attention, trying
something and not being able todo it, or publicly doing
something that takes her five or10 minutes longer than other
people.
How people look at her and she.
You know she's a teenageranyway.
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:40):
Yeah, I was going to say some of it is the
adolescence.
Yeah, absolutely, and it'svalid.
Mike Miller (10:46):
And so I learned that here and um and it stuck
with me.
Well, how?
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:50):
has it changed your?
If you know, you're back inyour city manager role, putting
that hat back on and drivingabout, walking, about
experiencing Muskogee.
How has it changed your agenda?
Do you talk about this atcouncil or with the mayor or
others?
Mike Miller (11:10):
So we do, and a couple of things that we're
doing is just by design on ourprojects upfront even more so.
So you talked about ADA as anecessity, right?
Or is it as you?
Jandel Allen-Davis (11:22):
use the good turn of phrase it's necessary,
but not sufficient.
Mike Miller (11:25):
Yes, and so we know , when we're designing something
, what the necessity is.
As we're looking at all theseprojects, we're trying to make
sure that we're doing.
We didn't have the right wordsfor it but, ADA says this how do
we do better than that?
Right, and so we are building.
We've had two new sidewalkprojects in the last year that
(11:46):
we made sure we tried to do withthat.
We had a trail project that Idon't want to go into all the
details, but we had struggleswith a contractor who decided
that ADA wasn't necessary, butmuch, much, yes, necessary.
I guess that first bar let alonesufficient, and so we had some
trouble with that and, workingwith some partners, we we
(12:08):
figured out how to get throughthat.
One thing that I'll say that Ihave I've learned from others is
so you ask what?
How it kind of changes thethings that we do.
My daughter's a freshman at theUniversity of Tulsa and so she
toured a bunch of colleges, youknow, as one does before they,
you know, make that largedecision and we got to see
(12:31):
accessibility from thatperspective.
And we got to see accessibilityfrom that perspective and we
saw lots of colleges anduniversities that had the
necessary that you could getfrom point A to point B.
But she went to some placesthat her college tour.
They're like okay, well, you goaround back and go there and
(12:51):
we'll meet you up over here, andeven one of them had like
here's the welcome hall for the.
Everyone get together.
You have to.
You can't come in the regulardoor, though, to get to the big
welcome for the studentorientation to the recruitment.
But when she went to theUniversity of Tulsa she remarked
upon it.
She's like it seems like wheretheir ramps are right, where the
(13:12):
doors are, all, everything getsme to the same place at the
same time as the other people.
I can go with my friends fromclass to class here, right, and
we're not having to do thetriangulation or I'll see you
there.
Yeah, it's like my destinationin theirs is close by right.
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:29):
You know that's equity and it was by
design.
You do it, tulsa.
Mike Miller (13:34):
Hats off to Tulsa, and so that's kind of been a
goal.
For me is, as we do new thingsin our city, how can that be
part of?
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:39):
it.
Yeah, you know, I've just sortof we've been working with this
developer, who has gottenreligion, I will say, in terms
of having come over.
We really walk the building ina really specialized, highly
targeted tour with ouroccupational and physical
therapists, and one of thethings that he realized, which
is what I wanted to ask youabout, is it actually isn't much
(14:02):
more difficult to think aboutdesign, as you're talking about,
from the ground up, whetherwe're talking in commercial
spaces, retail or certainly inour homes.
Sure, doors need to be respect,to be wider, these 36 inch, I
think it is doors and makingsure that you can actually clear
turns in hallways and that kindof thing.
(14:24):
So what's been, if any, theconversations with your teams or
with city council or with thecommunity around?
What would it take if Tulsa,the university, can do that, to
think about our city and ourtown that way?
Mike Miller (14:39):
The conversations have been, I would say, somewhat
organic, in that you just havethat when we're talking about a
project or talking aboutbuilding something.
One example is a housing groupthat we're working with.
Again, we'll probably not Again, I don't, we'll probably not
use the exact correct industryterms but basically they're like
we don't need to design housesthat have steps.
(15:01):
You know everybody's got thatlittle.
You know one or two stepsleading up.
We got to build the pad up soit doesn't flood.
We know that, but you know.
So they're building and they'redesigning.
Your path gently slopes up intoyour home instead of having you
know steps.
And, as you were talkingearlier, when you have a big
open floor plan and it doesn't,it's not a inconvenience, it's
(15:22):
not and it's not a lot ofadditional development costs.
It's usually maybe even noteven more cost, it's less,
depending on how they do it inthe structure.
And so those are the kinds ofconversations that I am having
now that I never would have hadbefore.
Is how can we do something thatlooks good, that is above and
beyond what's needed, that iswelcoming and provides a high
(15:46):
quality of life, because that'swhat we're all after anyway, is
that high quality of life, andthe less you have to think about
the daily things, the moreyou're able to enjoy life.
Jandel Allen-Davis (15:58):
And even as you said with Annie, that not
becoming the center of attentionbecause of the difference in
the way of trying to navigatearound things, but the center of
attention because she's like arock star, right.
Mike Miller (16:11):
She's pretty great.
Everyone go watch the video.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:15):
Yeah, you should.
Mike Miller (16:15):
It's amazing.
I'm sure there's going to be alink in the podcast.
We will make sure there's alink.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:20):
You know we talked about this budget thing.
I kind of mentioned it.
Have you yet come upon the timewhere you had to think about
trade-offs and budgets in thecity, or trade-offs or how you
navigate the difficultconversations that you even
referenced?
Mike Miller (16:37):
Well, I mean, we're probably in some of those
conversations right now.
We're in the middle of tryingto do a capital campaign, so
we're trying to figure out.
We've got a bunch of I alludedto our 100-year-old city hall so
we've got a lot of buildingsthat need some TLC and that need
some some repair, Uh.
And so what does that look like, Right, and how much does that
(16:59):
cost?
And we've got different plansthat we could build a whole
nother entrance to the buildingon the East side.
That would make it truly ADAaccessible and compliant,
because our current things arekind of grandfathered in, you
know, like an old building, andso we could do a whole bunch of
that, and but that would cost alot more than if we just, you
(17:21):
know, put a new coat of paint onit and, you know, a new roof
and you know the things that youhave to do on a hundred year
old building.
And so those are conversations.
Jandel Allen-Davis (17:31):
Yeah, you know.
Two things come to mind.
The first is have you run intowhich?
I will tell you just honestly,as an African-American woman who
is of a certain age, I've livedthrough several decades of the
work we know we have to doaround social justice, in
whatever way it plays out and itcan sometimes be you have an
agenda.
(17:51):
You're doing this because youhave an agenda, as opposed to
this, is really good foreverybody.
I hope you haven't hit thatwith respect to people thinking,
oh, you're just driving thisbecause of Annie, but that this
whole opening of eyes aroundseeing your community very
differently, because you knowmobility challenges are one but
sight challenges are another,cognitive challenges sensory
(18:14):
neural challenges.
it's all in there, so I hopenobody said that to you.
Mike Miller (18:19):
No, and I do want to say again about my community
that I think we are in generalpretty disability friendly.
We are home to the OklahomaSchool for the Blind.
So you talked about people thathave visual challenges, and so
we do have a you know a lot ofyoungsters that are learning how
to deal with poor eyesight orno eyesight, and, um, we have
(18:40):
white cane days and we havepeople you know we're moving
downtown with, you know learning, you know some basics about how
to, uh, how to, to navigate theworld, and so we have a pretty
high awareness of trying totrying to make our community
accommodating to people whoexperience life differently than
us.
It's different now that I'm inthe seat that I'm in and now
(19:03):
that I'm experiencing life withAnnie like I am.
Jandel Allen-Davis (19:07):
And, by the way, maybe we all need to take
Muskogee's population and doubleit, based on the wonderful ways
you're talking about the town.
Mike Miller (19:14):
We'd love everyone to move theregee's population
and double it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (19:15):
based on the wonderful ways you're talking
about the town, yeah, it soundslike and really that is
progressive to be able to saythat you all are, you live
because of circumstances, iehaving that school there, for
example.
Do you think it's easier insmall I don't know how often or
how city managers come togethernationally and but really come
together to share.
Mike Miller (19:33):
Yeah, so cities the size of Muskogee have problems
that bigger cities have, and inOklahoma that's Tulsa and
Oklahoma City, but we don't havethose resources that they have
to do it.
You get a kind of critical massof employees and a critical
mass of tax dollars and so Ithink in some ways harder, maybe
in a much smaller town of fiveor 10,000 people you can focus
(19:57):
on fewer things that you have todo.
In Muskogee we're kind of aregional hub of Oklahoma and so
we're the biggest firedepartment for 30, 40 miles,
we're the biggest policedepartment for 30 or 40 miles,
so we're the one everyonedepends on.
So we have the extra resources.
So we get called upon, ourresources get stretched thin to
help other communities and otherpeople, and we don't mind that.
(20:18):
That's been our identity for100 plus years.
You know city managers in muchlarger cities say our resources
are stretched too.
We have more money and more,but more stretching.
So, I don't think anything inmunicipal government is super
well-funded these days, and so Ithink we all have our
challenges for sure.
Jandel Allen-Davis (20:38):
We had an incident, an issue that happened
here in Denver a year ago twoyears ago now, it was 22.
There was for the mayoralelection, so it was last year.
There was one of those debateswhere all the candidates, a
candidate forum that cametogether, was hosted in an
historical building and, oncedeemed historical, you can't
touch it, and actually theincident made the front page of
(21:01):
the New York Times.
You saw that one yeah passed inboth the Senate and the House
this year in Colorado.
That requires that for thesepolitical events, where there's
going to be campaigns, that theyhave to be held or
accommodations need to be madefor disabilities.
(21:23):
And so you know, the hard thingis that we do learn this stuff
the hard way.
How do we use creativity andinnovation?
And when you dream, what do yousee in terms of future cities
that you don't even have tothink about this stuff?
Mike Miller (21:35):
Wow, what a question.
It's almost too big of aquestion.
I get a little choked up.
So probably why you do some ofthe things you do is you get to
make a difference that'simportant in people's lives, and
not just people, but a personthat you see right, and you get
(21:56):
to see a lot of great peoplehere, every day, and you can see
some of them that are justdoing way better than they would
be doing if it weren't for yourhelp.
And so, as a city manager, Idon't always think of the big
thing.
It's not been my career.
I remember I was an Englishmajor, so I haven't spent a
lifetime thinking of what's autopian city look like.
(22:17):
I have spent some time in mylife thinking about how do I
make that person's life better,but what it means to me is how
do we do that on a that empathyfor the next person and make the
next person's life better,knowing that they're not a
(22:38):
payoff for me?
The payoff is that you did theright thing.
Jandel Allen-Davis (22:42):
It's those small things that matter,
because the grandness ofdreaming about big, beautiful
cities that have a place foreverybody, where you really
sense and can feel that youbelong, can feel overwhelming.
But it is the small things.
It is just if this helps, mike,the conversations and the
courage of stepping in andlooking differently through the
(23:05):
lens of Annie's injury, at yourcity and your responsibility
around how you make ourneighbors' lives better every
day.
It is a game of inches andevery single one of those inches
influences something else, so Ijust applaud you for continuing
to do this work.
What advice would you offer toother city managers or leaders
(23:25):
who are looking to enhanceaccessibility within their own
communities?
Mike Miller (23:30):
There's kind of philosophical and practical
answers to that.
There's kind of philosophicaland practical answers to that,
and so a practical answer thatwe've implemented in Muskogee is
just using our eyes and we havea lot of people that are lower
income, that are disabled aswell, and just through
circumstance or through anability to find a workplace that
(23:50):
is accommodating or all thethings that can contribute place
that is accommodating or allthe things that can contribute
and so what we found is thatthere are significant number of
people that had accessibilityproblems, that couldn't get to
the store without kind ofrolling their wheelchairs in the
street.
There were people like we needto do something.
So we used our eyes and webuilt a sidewalk.
(24:10):
We're not heroes for that.
We could have done that a longtime ago, but that is a
practical thing is that you canlook through whatever sort of
data set that you would like touse to benefit the most people
in the most way.
In a very fundamental way,because getting to the store to
buy food is important and beingable to do that in a safe way is
important, and if yourcommunity can't do that for
(24:33):
people, you're not doing a greatjob, and we weren't doing a
great job and we're in theprocess of doing a better job.
That's amazing.
So that's kind of the practical.
Jandel Allen-Davis (24:41):
I'm going to interrupt you there to say I
love that, use your eyes and oneof the things that just to sort
of tag on to that or build uponthat is the idea of doing
accessibility walks.
The bus stop is 15 minutes downthe street.
There are people who usetransportation to get to the
office.
Depending on the weather,depending on the bus route,
(25:02):
depending on the time, can theyreally make it to that nine
o'clock appointment?
And when they don't, are youblaming them?
Are you thinking more broadlyabout the circumstances?
Or is our wayfinding clear inbuildings and that sort of thing
?
Mike Miller (25:15):
When you're making these decisions.
Are there people that have thatexperience at the table?
The circumstances?
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:20):
or is our wayfinding clear in buildings
and that sort of thing whenyou're making these?
Mike Miller (25:22):
decisions.
Are there people that have thatexperience at the table right?
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:24):
Oh amen.
So are there people that knowwhat you're?
Mike Miller (25:25):
talking about.
We try not to build a parkwithout having, you know,
somebody with little kids giveus some ideas, right?
So we shouldn't try, and youknow, build other things right.
So we shouldn't try, and youknow, build other things.
We should include, when we'redesigning things, people, all
the people that might use themand have different perspectives.
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:43):
You know we think about just FYI in
healthcare when we talk aboutwithin our hospitals or offices.
A requirement and it's not arequirement legally yet and I
hope it never has to be, becauseI hope we just do it is having
patients, real consumers of yourservices, be part of your
(26:05):
advisory committees or yourpatient safety committee or your
quality committee.
And what I've heard folksdefault to is well, we're
patients in this system so I canrepresent.
No, you can't.
You know we need to totally beable to take our hat off, and so
I just love that.
That's the way you're thinkingabout it.
Is that it's a nothing about mewithout me strategy as an
(26:27):
employer and you are, if I canjust ask that question as an
employer, and I don't know ifyou know this, but the
employment rate for disabledpopulation is about 22.5%, so
most people with disabilitieshave been frozen out of job
markets because our eyes aren'topen wide enough to see
possibility and potential.
How do you think about that asan employer?
(26:50):
How does the city think aboutthat?
Mike Miller (26:52):
So we are open for business.
Amen, so I think about that, sowe are open for business Amen.
So I think about it with twolenses.
And one is, you know, inOklahoma the job market is very
much employee friendly right now.
There's more people that need tohire people than are available
(27:12):
in the workforce, and so we havethat open door to try and make
sure that we don't have thingsthat keep people artificially
from receiving jobs.
That's a conversation I hadthis last week with our HR
department.
Who are we keeping out with ourown rules?
That are our rules that aren'tnecessary, and especially in an
(27:33):
organization that's hours ahundred and plus years old.
We've got the way we've alwaysdone things and we've always
asked these questions.
And if you have this and if you, if this is, if you can't do
this or that, then you're noteligible and like so maybe that
was a good rule when we had 10,10 applicants for every job and
now we have, you know, oneapplicant for every job.
(27:55):
So, we need to make sure that weare widening our pool, that we
are not excluding anyone, thatwe're not artificially.
Jandel Allen-Davis (28:05):
Whatever accommodations, that and, by the
way, that's another one ofthose ADA things that needs work
reasonable accommodations,reasonable through whose lenses?
Is another thing that we've gotto.
that was the opening of of eyes,so I'm probably going to make
you cry as we finish up thisinterview because your daughter,
Annie, as we, started as a rockstar and I just want to give
(28:27):
you a few moments just to speakinto whoever this void is or
whoever's out there listeningabout what a special person she
is and why you, through yourrole as dad and as community
member and as city leader, arehell-bent on changing the
trajectory around this.
Mike Miller (28:48):
You know, my goal is for Annie to have a good
career.
Right, I don't want her to havea 22% chance of being employed.
Yeah, and so she's got careeraspirations and life aspirations
and you know, amazing andbrilliant and making all the
good grades, and and you knowplaying her musical instruments
and performing, and so I'm a I'ma proud dad on all of those
(29:11):
things.
But I have been for 18 yearsnow dad on all of those things,
but I have been for 18 years now, so she's really amazing.
Jandel Allen-Davis (29:21):
Everybody thinks their kid's the best, but
my kid's the best.
I don't know.
Mike Miller (29:23):
We can arm wrestle, we can arm wrestle, but we've
always, we've been blessed withher our whole life.
Jandel Allen-Davis (29:29):
And yeah, yeah, we got to make a world
that is more than big enough forAnnie and the Annie's of the
world.
Yeah, and the Anthony's of theworld, just so I can play on in
English.
Mike Miller (29:43):
Sure A way of thinking about it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (29:44):
Yeah, I know To have that world open to them
, and it sounds like you werethere and this has just
reinforced it which says a lotabout you, Mike, as a person.
Mike Miller (29:53):
Well, she's a fantastic girl and she's a woman
, a fantastic young woman, verysmart, and if you listen to this
, I love you very much.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:07):
Yeah Well, I want to thank you for making
time.
It's going to be a real honorand privilege to pull this
particular episode ofUnstoppable through the lens of
you guys who placemake andplacemake and cityemake and city
build and city imagine and cityutopian.
However, we want to put it yes.
And dream big on behalf ofthose you serve and Muskogee's,
blessed to have you, mike.
I hope they know that.
Mike Miller (30:25):
Thank you so much for taking time from me today.
I thoroughly enjoyed becoming Ifeel like your friend now.
You are.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:32):
So thank you , you are.
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we
pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace cultures
click and what happens whenpeople are empowered to expand
the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
I am Dr Jandell Allen AllenDavis, ceo and President of
(00:26):
Craig Hospital, a world-renownedrehabilitation hospital that
exclusively specializes in theneurorehabilitation and research
of patients with spinal cordand brain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation.
I don't know if you know JudyHeumann.
(00:47):
Judy Heumann is not singularly,but she's one of the great
leaders that got the AmericanDisabilities Act passed in 1990,
and she passed it last year.
So, she is a hero in thedisability community and one of
the things that she said is thatpart of the problems that we
tend to think of equality, thatit's about treating everyone the
(01:07):
same, when it really isn't.
It is about equity, it's aboutfairness and it's about equity
of access, which was certainlyobviously at the core of what
the ADA is about.
I also say that the Americanswith Disabilities Act is
necessary but hardly sufficient,that we've got miles to go, and
you would know that better thanmany Mike and I am so thrilled
(01:30):
and honored to get a chance totalk with Mike Miller, who has
many connections to this workthat he'll talk about, but he is
the city manager of Muskogee,oklahoma, and has been doing
that for over seven years.
But there's other really coolthings that you may want to
share, so I'm just going to openup to you to tell us a little
bit about yourself, your careerand how it is that you and I get
(01:50):
to hang together.
Mike Miller (01:52):
Yeah well first, very generous of you to make the
offer.
I love to meet interestingpeople and we've already had a
brief conversation and got toknow people and talk about
mutual acquaintances and what asmall world it really is.
And so I grew up in Oklahoma.
My wife is named Holly HollyRosser Miller and she's from
Texas, and we have spent thelast 24 years in Muskogee,
(02:15):
oklahoma.
Both of us grew up in muchlarger towns and we didn't ever
anticipate living in a communityMuskogee size it's about 40,000
citizens in.
Muskogee.
But when we lived in Muskogeeit was because I was working for
a Native American tribe, theCherokee Nation, which was
headquartered about 20 milesaway, and I love working there,
but it was a place ofconvenience.
(02:37):
So we moved to Muskogee, thissmall town.
It seems small but reallybecame home for us.
It's really a place ofcommunity there, where people
get along, they pull together tomake the community a better
place.
And it has its flaws, likeevery community, but it's got so
much going for it and we reallyfell in love with it.
So we've lived there for about25 years work in Muskogee.
(03:05):
I always commuted other placesuntil I got the opportunity to
work for the city of Muskogeeand what we do there and what we
like to say is we get to makeour neighbors' lives better
every day.
Jandel Allen-Davis (03:12):
Oh, beautiful.
Mike Miller (03:13):
Yeah, so what we mean by that is, pardon me, I
was an English major in college,which of course prepares you
for lots of things.
Jandel Allen-Davis (03:21):
We have a daughter who's one of those and
I actually would agree.
Mike Miller (03:27):
Yes, I agree too.
I am a strong believer we canget off on that tangent in in
the humanities, making you abetter person overall.
But um, as a, and so um, thethe words in that phrase are
important.
Making, it's an action verb,it's you don't something doesn't
happen.
You don't make something unlessyou're doing it and you take a
positive, proactive action.
Our neighbors we're talkingabout us together neighbors, the
(03:50):
people around us make ourneighbors lives better every day
, and so, uh, that's what we getto do, and there's lots of ways
that that we get to do it.
Working for the city, and it's alot of things that people take
for granted.
So you expect that the watercomes into your house through
the faucet and that it leaves,however it leaves, down the
drain and you want it to leaveefficiently, and all those
(04:12):
things.
And that the police come whenthey're called and the
firefighters come when they'recalled and that the streets get
you where you need to go and thetrash gets picked up, and so
there's a lot of things that wetake for granted to go and the
trash gets picked up, and sothere's a lot of things that we
take for granted and peopledon't always say, oh I'm sure,
glad that worked right 100% ofthe time or 99.9% of the time.
So that's one of the things.
We just remind ourselves thatthat feeling of fulfillment
(04:36):
comes from doing something goodfor the people around you,
whether they know it oracknowledge it or not.
I feel like when I come toCraig, that there's people that
feel that way too.
Jandel Allen-Davis (04:44):
So what brings you or brought you to
Craig?
Talk a little bit about that.
Mike Miller (04:53):
So my daughter had a spinal cord injury while we
were on spring break here inColorado, and so she was 16
years old at the time.
She was kind of emergencytransferred to Children's
Hospital here in Denver area andthen she was in intensive care
for a long time more than amonth and then another ambulance
ride across town.
She was transferred here forinpatient and then some
outpatient therapy and shecaptured our hearts right away.
(05:16):
She has a way of doing that.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:18):
The irony that you have this role as a
city manager and I don't know ifMuskogee is city manager form
of government so you run thecity.
Just for those who don't know,city manager forms of government
are where you actually run it.
They may have a mayor, mayormay be part of city council, but
the real deal is you.
Mike Miller (05:38):
Yeah, the council and mayor.
They're the board of directorsand the mayor's the chairman of
the board, but then the personthat has to go do everything is
me, as the city manager, andyou've been doing that for over
seven years.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:47):
I know there are other things that may come
up in story as we talk in thisnext hour, but the irony that
the importance of placemaking Icould imagine took on new
importance or even just sort ofnew perspectives through the
lens of Annie's injury and I'dlove just to get some sense of
how have your perspectiveschanged and what stories has
(06:08):
your, just the way that this haspersonally touched you.
How has it changed yourperspectives about this whole
idea of accessibility anddisability rights and city and
placemaking?
Mike Miller (06:18):
Well, you're right, I think from my background,
from my perspective, it changeddramatically two years ago,
right, and so I can see theperspective of people that don't
understand the challenges.
And so one of my perspectivesis that I work in a beautiful
old city hall that's 100 yearsold, like literally 100 years
(06:38):
old, and they do have anelevator that they didn't
originally have, but my daughteris terrified of it because it
is just about as wide as it'syou know probably a 50 or 60
arrow, you know, well maintainedelevator.
But so my daughter used to cometo my office a lot and she
doesn't as much anymore becausethere's that, uh, even though
(06:59):
there's an elevator, it's oneshe can't turn around and she
can wheel in and then have toback out, and so you don't think
about those things.
We had and we do have at thecity accommodations for people
that can't get upstairs.
You can understand from bothperspectives, before her injury
and after.
It's kind of like differentlayers that you see and you're
(07:21):
like oh okay, the things that Ihadn't thought about.
As far as you know the quotethat you read earlier, it's not
about fairness, it's aboutequity of access.
Well, you know, there's lots ofthings.
The fairness is there's anelevator.
The equity of access is thatit's not really feasible for
people in wheelchairs, and sothat change of perspective has
(07:44):
been.
I'll admit I feel a littleguilty that I hadn't thought of
those things before, right?
I mean, you want to think ofyourself as empathetic or caring
or trying to help others, andyou're like oh now it's more
important to me because mydaughter's situation, but maybe
it obviously should have beeneven before that.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:04):
Well, I would say I'm here to the extent
you need me to absolve you ofthe guilt that's why we're
talking about this today is thatthere's this.
What's that phrase?
That which has been seen can'tbe unseen.
Mike Miller (08:14):
Yes.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:15):
And I too, until five years ago, sort of
considered myself someone whoreally thought about equity.
But I can tell you that wedidn't.
We, the universal, we's,haven't thought about it through
the lens of accessibility.
Some of I could imagine thatequity would be Annie could
bounce into the building, takethe stairs, probably, I hope
(08:35):
unless you're on the a millionthfloor.
Mike Miller (08:36):
In that case I'd say, take the elevator too.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:40):
That equity is that?
How do we make it as easy aspossible and as welcoming,
whether it's restaurants?
Well now, I can't walk intorestaurants without seeing.
How would a power chair everget around all these tables?
Mike Miller (08:53):
Well, I had that experience, that exact
restaurant experience.
My brother and I were going tolunch the other day and I called
my wife and my daughter andsaid, hey, come join us.
And then we got to therestaurant about five minutes
before and I'm like, oh, wecan't go to this restaurant.
It was an older restaurant.
It had, you know, flagstonesteps.
It didn't have a ramp, wow, youknow, even still, I hadn't
(09:18):
noticed those things.
So the people that are patientsand friends of Craig I'm not
illuminating them by sayingthose things, but one of the
things you said earlier.
It reminded me of somethingthat I did learn here, that I
stuck with me for the two yearsplus since Annie's been gone
From the hospital.
One of the I don't remember ifit was a therapist or one of the
(09:43):
people said go out and try todo stuff, even if it's hard, or
you can't do it or you need help.
And they said people will notknow if you sit at home and
don't try.
Let people try and help youovercome those.
(10:19):
You know, either in that day, inthat moment or, by design,
long-term.
And that's what and I I thoughtof that here because it's hard,
I will say from my daughter'sperspective and me being with
her.
She doesn't want to be thatperson.
She doesn't want to be thecenter of attention, trying
something and not being able todo it, or publicly doing
something that takes her five or10 minutes longer than other
people.
How people look at her and she.
You know she's a teenageranyway.
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:40):
Yeah, I was going to say some of it is the
adolescence.
Yeah, absolutely, and it'svalid.
Mike Miller (10:46):
And so I learned that here and um and it stuck
with me.
Well, how?
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:50):
has it changed your?
If you know, you're back inyour city manager role, putting
that hat back on and drivingabout, walking, about
experiencing Muskogee.
How has it changed your agenda?
Do you talk about this atcouncil or with the mayor or
others?
Mike Miller (11:10):
So we do, and a couple of things that we're
doing is just by design on ourprojects upfront even more so.
So you talked about ADA as anecessity, right?
Or is it as you?
Jandel Allen-Davis (11:22):
use the good turn of phrase it's necessary,
but not sufficient.
Mike Miller (11:25):
Yes, and so we know , when we're designing something
, what the necessity is.
As we're looking at all theseprojects, we're trying to make
sure that we're doing.
We didn't have the right wordsfor it but, ADA says this how do
we do better than that?
Right, and so we are building.
We've had two new sidewalkprojects in the last year that
(11:46):
we made sure we tried to do withthat.
We had a trail project that Idon't want to go into all the
details, but we had struggleswith a contractor who decided
that ADA wasn't necessary, butmuch, much, yes, necessary.
I guess that first bar let alonesufficient, and so we had some
trouble with that and, workingwith some partners, we we
(12:08):
figured out how to get throughthat.
One thing that I'll say that Ihave I've learned from others is
so you ask what?
How it kind of changes thethings that we do.
My daughter's a freshman at theUniversity of Tulsa and so she
toured a bunch of colleges, youknow, as one does before they,
you know, make that largedecision and we got to see
(12:31):
accessibility from thatperspective.
And we got to see accessibilityfrom that perspective and we
saw lots of colleges anduniversities that had the
necessary that you could getfrom point A to point B.
But she went to some placesthat her college tour.
They're like okay, well, you goaround back and go there and
(12:51):
we'll meet you up over here, andeven one of them had like
here's the welcome hall for the.
Everyone get together.
You have to.
You can't come in the regulardoor, though, to get to the big
welcome for the studentorientation to the recruitment.
But when she went to theUniversity of Tulsa she remarked
upon it.
She's like it seems like wheretheir ramps are right, where the
(13:12):
doors are, all, everything getsme to the same place at the
same time as the other people.
I can go with my friends fromclass to class here, right, and
we're not having to do thetriangulation or I'll see you
there.
Yeah, it's like my destinationin theirs is close by right.
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:29):
You know that's equity and it was by
design.
You do it, tulsa.
Mike Miller (13:34):
Hats off to Tulsa, and so that's kind of been a
goal.
For me is, as we do new thingsin our city, how can that be
part of?
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:39):
it.
Yeah, you know, I've just sortof we've been working with this
developer, who has gottenreligion, I will say, in terms
of having come over.
We really walk the building ina really specialized, highly
targeted tour with ouroccupational and physical
therapists, and one of thethings that he realized, which
is what I wanted to ask youabout, is it actually isn't much
(14:02):
more difficult to think aboutdesign, as you're talking about,
from the ground up, whetherwe're talking in commercial
spaces, retail or certainly inour homes.
Sure, doors need to be respect,to be wider, these 36 inch, I
think it is doors and makingsure that you can actually clear
turns in hallways and that kindof thing.
(14:24):
So what's been, if any, theconversations with your teams or
with city council or with thecommunity around?
What would it take if Tulsa,the university, can do that, to
think about our city and ourtown that way?
Mike Miller (14:39):
The conversations have been, I would say, somewhat
organic, in that you just havethat when we're talking about a
project or talking aboutbuilding something.
One example is a housing groupthat we're working with.
Again, we'll probably not Again, I don't, we'll probably not
use the exact correct industryterms but basically they're like
we don't need to design housesthat have steps.
(15:01):
You know everybody's got thatlittle.
You know one or two stepsleading up.
We got to build the pad up soit doesn't flood.
We know that, but you know.
So they're building and they'redesigning.
Your path gently slopes up intoyour home instead of having you
know steps.
And, as you were talkingearlier, when you have a big
open floor plan and it doesn't,it's not a inconvenience, it's
(15:22):
not and it's not a lot ofadditional development costs.
It's usually maybe even noteven more cost, it's less,
depending on how they do it inthe structure.
And so those are the kinds ofconversations that I am having
now that I never would have hadbefore.
Is how can we do something thatlooks good, that is above and
beyond what's needed, that iswelcoming and provides a high
(15:46):
quality of life, because that'swhat we're all after anyway, is
that high quality of life, andthe less you have to think about
the daily things, the moreyou're able to enjoy life.
Jandel Allen-Davis (15:58):
And even as you said with Annie, that not
becoming the center of attentionbecause of the difference in
the way of trying to navigatearound things, but the center of
attention because she's like arock star, right.
Mike Miller (16:11):
She's pretty great.
Everyone go watch the video.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:15):
Yeah, you should.
Mike Miller (16:15):
It's amazing.
I'm sure there's going to be alink in the podcast.
We will make sure there's alink.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:20):
You know we talked about this budget thing.
I kind of mentioned it.
Have you yet come upon the timewhere you had to think about
trade-offs and budgets in thecity, or trade-offs or how you
navigate the difficultconversations that you even
referenced?
Mike Miller (16:37):
Well, I mean, we're probably in some of those
conversations right now.
We're in the middle of tryingto do a capital campaign, so
we're trying to figure out.
We've got a bunch of I alludedto our 100-year-old city hall so
we've got a lot of buildingsthat need some TLC and that need
some some repair, Uh.
And so what does that look like, Right, and how much does that
(16:59):
cost?
And we've got different plansthat we could build a whole
nother entrance to the buildingon the East side.
That would make it truly ADAaccessible and compliant,
because our current things arekind of grandfathered in, you
know, like an old building, andso we could do a whole bunch of
that, and but that would cost alot more than if we just, you
(17:21):
know, put a new coat of paint onit and, you know, a new roof
and you know the things that youhave to do on a hundred year
old building.
And so those are conversations.
Jandel Allen-Davis (17:31):
Yeah, you know.
Two things come to mind.
The first is have you run intowhich?
I will tell you just honestly,as an African-American woman who
is of a certain age, I've livedthrough several decades of the
work we know we have to doaround social justice, in
whatever way it plays out and itcan sometimes be you have an
agenda.
(17:51):
You're doing this because youhave an agenda, as opposed to
this, is really good foreverybody.
I hope you haven't hit thatwith respect to people thinking,
oh, you're just driving thisbecause of Annie, but that this
whole opening of eyes aroundseeing your community very
differently, because you knowmobility challenges are one but
sight challenges are another,cognitive challenges sensory
(18:14):
neural challenges.
it's all in there, so I hopenobody said that to you.
Mike Miller (18:19):
No, and I do want to say again about my community
that I think we are in generalpretty disability friendly.
We are home to the OklahomaSchool for the Blind.
So you talked about people thathave visual challenges, and so
we do have a you know a lot ofyoungsters that are learning how
to deal with poor eyesight orno eyesight, and, um, we have
(18:40):
white cane days and we havepeople you know we're moving
downtown with, you know learning, you know some basics about how
to, uh, how to, to navigate theworld, and so we have a pretty
high awareness of trying totrying to make our community
accommodating to people whoexperience life differently than
us.
It's different now that I'm inthe seat that I'm in and now
(19:03):
that I'm experiencing life withAnnie like I am.
Jandel Allen-Davis (19:07):
And, by the way, maybe we all need to take
Muskogee's population and doubleit, based on the wonderful ways
you're talking about the town.
Mike Miller (19:14):
We'd love everyone to move theregee's population
and double it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (19:15):
based on the wonderful ways you're talking
about the town, yeah, it soundslike and really that is
progressive to be able to saythat you all are, you live
because of circumstances, iehaving that school there, for
example.
Do you think it's easier insmall I don't know how often or
how city managers come togethernationally and but really come
together to share.
Mike Miller (19:33):
Yeah, so cities the size of Muskogee have problems
that bigger cities have, and inOklahoma that's Tulsa and
Oklahoma City, but we don't havethose resources that they have
to do it.
You get a kind of critical massof employees and a critical
mass of tax dollars and so Ithink in some ways harder, maybe
in a much smaller town of fiveor 10,000 people you can focus
(19:57):
on fewer things that you have todo.
In Muskogee we're kind of aregional hub of Oklahoma and so
we're the biggest firedepartment for 30, 40 miles,
we're the biggest policedepartment for 30 or 40 miles,
so we're the one everyonedepends on.
So we have the extra resources.
So we get called upon, ourresources get stretched thin to
help other communities and otherpeople, and we don't mind that.
(20:18):
That's been our identity for100 plus years.
You know city managers in muchlarger cities say our resources
are stretched too.
We have more money and more,but more stretching.
So, I don't think anything inmunicipal government is super
well-funded these days, and so Ithink we all have our
challenges for sure.
Jandel Allen-Davis (20:38):
We had an incident, an issue that happened
here in Denver a year ago twoyears ago now, it was 22.
There was for the mayoralelection, so it was last year.
There was one of those debateswhere all the candidates, a
candidate forum that cametogether, was hosted in an
historical building and, oncedeemed historical, you can't
touch it, and actually theincident made the front page of
(21:01):
the New York Times.
You saw that one yeah passed inboth the Senate and the House
this year in Colorado.
That requires that for thesepolitical events, where there's
going to be campaigns, that theyhave to be held or
accommodations need to be madefor disabilities.
(21:23):
And so you know, the hard thingis that we do learn this stuff
the hard way.
How do we use creativity andinnovation?
And when you dream, what do yousee in terms of future cities
that you don't even have tothink about this stuff?
Mike Miller (21:35):
Wow, what a question.
It's almost too big of aquestion.
I get a little choked up.
So probably why you do some ofthe things you do is you get to
make a difference that'simportant in people's lives, and
not just people, but a personthat you see right, and you get
(21:56):
to see a lot of great peoplehere, every day, and you can see
some of them that are justdoing way better than they would
be doing if it weren't for yourhelp.
And so, as a city manager, Idon't always think of the big
thing.
It's not been my career.
I remember I was an Englishmajor, so I haven't spent a
lifetime thinking of what's autopian city look like.
(22:17):
I have spent some time in mylife thinking about how do I
make that person's life better,but what it means to me is how
do we do that on a that empathyfor the next person and make the
next person's life better,knowing that they're not a
(22:38):
payoff for me?
The payoff is that you did theright thing.
Jandel Allen-Davis (22:42):
It's those small things that matter,
because the grandness ofdreaming about big, beautiful
cities that have a place foreverybody, where you really
sense and can feel that youbelong, can feel overwhelming.
But it is the small things.
It is just if this helps, mike,the conversations and the
courage of stepping in andlooking differently through the
(23:05):
lens of Annie's injury, at yourcity and your responsibility
around how you make ourneighbors' lives better every
day.
It is a game of inches andevery single one of those inches
influences something else, so Ijust applaud you for continuing
to do this work.
What advice would you offer toother city managers or leaders
(23:25):
who are looking to enhanceaccessibility within their own
communities?
Mike Miller (23:30):
There's kind of philosophical and practical
answers to that.
There's kind of philosophicaland practical answers to that,
and so a practical answer thatwe've implemented in Muskogee is
just using our eyes and we havea lot of people that are lower
income, that are disabled aswell, and just through
circumstance or through anability to find a workplace that
(23:50):
is accommodating or all thethings that can contribute place
that is accommodating or allthe things that can contribute
and so what we found is thatthere are significant number of
people that had accessibilityproblems, that couldn't get to
the store without kind ofrolling their wheelchairs in the
street.
There were people like we needto do something.
So we used our eyes and webuilt a sidewalk.
(24:10):
We're not heroes for that.
We could have done that a longtime ago, but that is a
practical thing is that you canlook through whatever sort of
data set that you would like touse to benefit the most people
in the most way.
In a very fundamental way,because getting to the store to
buy food is important and beingable to do that in a safe way is
important, and if yourcommunity can't do that for
(24:33):
people, you're not doing a greatjob, and we weren't doing a
great job and we're in theprocess of doing a better job.
That's amazing.
So that's kind of the practical.
Jandel Allen-Davis (24:41):
I'm going to interrupt you there to say I
love that, use your eyes and oneof the things that just to sort
of tag on to that or build uponthat is the idea of doing
accessibility walks.
The bus stop is 15 minutes downthe street.
There are people who usetransportation to get to the
office.
Depending on the weather,depending on the bus route,
(25:02):
depending on the time, can theyreally make it to that nine
o'clock appointment?
And when they don't, are youblaming them?
Are you thinking more broadlyabout the circumstances?
Or is our wayfinding clear inbuildings and that sort of thing
?
Mike Miller (25:15):
When you're making these decisions.
Are there people that have thatexperience at the table?
The circumstances?
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:20):
or is our wayfinding clear in buildings
and that sort of thing whenyou're making these?
Mike Miller (25:22):
decisions.
Are there people that have thatexperience at the table right?
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:24):
Oh amen.
So are there people that knowwhat you're?
Mike Miller (25:25):
talking about.
We try not to build a parkwithout having, you know,
somebody with little kids giveus some ideas, right?
So we shouldn't try, and youknow, build other things right.
So we shouldn't try, and youknow, build other things.
We should include, when we'redesigning things, people, all
the people that might use themand have different perspectives.
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:43):
You know we think about just FYI in
healthcare when we talk aboutwithin our hospitals or offices.
A requirement and it's not arequirement legally yet and I
hope it never has to be, becauseI hope we just do it is having
patients, real consumers of yourservices, be part of your
(26:05):
advisory committees or yourpatient safety committee or your
quality committee.
And what I've heard folksdefault to is well, we're
patients in this system so I canrepresent.
No, you can't.
You know we need to totally beable to take our hat off, and so
I just love that.
That's the way you're thinkingabout it.
Is that it's a nothing about mewithout me strategy as an
(26:27):
employer and you are, if I canjust ask that question as an
employer, and I don't know ifyou know this, but the
employment rate for disabledpopulation is about 22.5%, so
most people with disabilitieshave been frozen out of job
markets because our eyes aren'topen wide enough to see
possibility and potential.
How do you think about that asan employer?
(26:50):
How does the city think aboutthat?
Mike Miller (26:52):
So we are open for business.
Amen, so I think about that, sowe are open for business Amen.
So I think about it with twolenses.
And one is, you know, inOklahoma the job market is very
much employee friendly right now.
There's more people that need tohire people than are available
(27:12):
in the workforce, and so we havethat open door to try and make
sure that we don't have thingsthat keep people artificially
from receiving jobs.
That's a conversation I hadthis last week with our HR
department.
Who are we keeping out with ourown rules?
That are our rules that aren'tnecessary, and especially in an
(27:33):
organization that's hours ahundred and plus years old.
We've got the way we've alwaysdone things and we've always
asked these questions.
And if you have this and if you, if this is, if you can't do
this or that, then you're noteligible and like so maybe that
was a good rule when we had 10,10 applicants for every job and
now we have, you know, oneapplicant for every job.
(27:55):
So, we need to make sure that weare widening our pool, that we
are not excluding anyone, thatwe're not artificially.
Jandel Allen-Davis (28:05):
Whatever accommodations, that and, by the
way, that's another one ofthose ADA things that needs work
reasonable accommodations,reasonable through whose lenses?
Is another thing that we've gotto.
that was the opening of of eyes,so I'm probably going to make
you cry as we finish up thisinterview because your daughter,
Annie, as we, started as a rockstar and I just want to give
(28:27):
you a few moments just to speakinto whoever this void is or
whoever's out there listeningabout what a special person she
is and why you, through yourrole as dad and as community
member and as city leader, arehell-bent on changing the
trajectory around this.
Mike Miller (28:48):
You know, my goal is for Annie to have a good
career.
Right, I don't want her to havea 22% chance of being employed.
Yeah, and so she's got careeraspirations and life aspirations
and you know, amazing andbrilliant and making all the
good grades, and and you knowplaying her musical instruments
and performing, and so I'm a I'ma proud dad on all of those
(29:11):
things.
But I have been for 18 yearsnow dad on all of those things,
but I have been for 18 years now, so she's really amazing.
Jandel Allen-Davis (29:21):
Everybody thinks their kid's the best, but
my kid's the best.
I don't know.
Mike Miller (29:23):
We can arm wrestle, we can arm wrestle, but we've
always, we've been blessed withher our whole life.
Jandel Allen-Davis (29:29):
And yeah, yeah, we got to make a world
that is more than big enough forAnnie and the Annie's of the
world.
Yeah, and the Anthony's of theworld, just so I can play on in
English.
Mike Miller (29:43):
Sure A way of thinking about it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (29:44):
Yeah, I know To have that world open to them
, and it sounds like you werethere and this has just
reinforced it which says a lotabout you, Mike, as a person.
Mike Miller (29:53):
Well, she's a fantastic girl and she's a woman
, a fantastic young woman, verysmart, and if you listen to this
, I love you very much.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:07):
Yeah Well, I want to thank you for making
time.
It's going to be a real honorand privilege to pull this
particular episode ofUnstoppable through the lens of
you guys who placemake andplacemake and cityemake and city
build and city imagine and cityutopian.
However, we want to put it yes.
And dream big on behalf ofthose you serve and Muskogee's,
blessed to have you, mike.
I hope they know that.
Mike Miller (30:25):
Thank you so much for taking time from me today.
I thoroughly enjoyed becoming Ifeel like your friend now.
You are.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:32):
So thank you , you are.
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