June 10, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode of Unstoppable @ Craig, we welcome Mike Hess, executive Director and Founder of the Blind Institute of Technology (BIT). Mike's journey from a misdiagnosed childhood to leading a nonprofit that champions employment for people with disabilities is nothing short of extraordinary.
We dive deep into the creation of BIT and the innovative strategies to place talented professionals with disabilities into meaningful roles. Mike shares insights on how technology can provide reasonable accommodations and the ongoing challenge of overcoming bias for true belonging. This episode is a call to action for leaders everywhere to embrace thoughtful policies, passionate allies, and the courage to champion inclusivity for all.
We dive deep into the creation of BIT and the innovative strategies to place talented professionals with disabilities into meaningful roles. Mike shares insights on how technology can provide reasonable accommodations and the ongoing challenge of overcoming bias for true belonging. This episode is a call to action for leaders everywhere to embrace thoughtful policies, passionate allies, and the courage to champion inclusivity for all.
For more information, transcriptions and behind-the-scene photos, visit https://craighospital.org/unstoppable
Craig Hospital is a world-renowned rehabilitation hospital that exclusively specializes in neurorehabilitation and research for individuals with spinal cord injury (SCI) and brain injury (BI). Located in Englewood, Colorado, Craig Hospital is a 350,000-square-foot, 93-bed, private, not-for-profit center of excellence providing a comprehensive system of inpatient and outpatient neurorehabilitation. https://craighospital.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jandel Allen-Davis (00:01):
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we
pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace cultures
click and what happens whenpeople are empowered to expand
the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
I'm Dr Jandell Allen CEO andPresident of Preg Hospital, a
(00:26):
world-renowned rehabilitationhospital that exclusively
specializes in theneuro-rehabilitation and
research of patients with spinalcord and brain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation Stifle Innovation.
I am so thrilled to have theopportunity to spend time with
(00:50):
Mike Hess, who's from the BlindInstitute of Technology.
He's an old colleague, friendbuddy, who I met several years
ago, and I remember some of whatwe talked about around
opportunities for employment forpeople with, in the case we
were talking about, who arevisually impaired in different
ways or had low visibility interms of vision, and it's been
(01:12):
something that not only hasstuck with me since our time
together, and there have beenmany times over the years, in
different settings.
In particular, though, in thislast five years since I came to
Craig Hospital that I've thoughtabout you or your name has come
up, or I've told folks aboutyou.
So it's a real honor andprivilege to get to do this
together, and I haven't seen youin so many years, so that was
fun too.
(01:32):
But what I think would be agreat way to start is just to
tell us about you and the workyou're doing in the world.
Mike Hess (01:40):
Thank you, jandell, and I really it's my honor, it's
my pleasure to be here inperson, right Like with you
again.
Our conversations have alwaysbeen enlightening and spirited
and I love talking to you.
Know, change makerpractitioners.
Right Like a lot of people talkabout being a change maker.
However, the seat that you arecurrently sitting in is done so
(02:06):
by somebody who actually wantsto affect change versus just
talk about change.
But for your listeners, my nameis Mike Hess and I'm executive
director and founder at aColorado-based nonprofit truly
making a global difference, nowcalled blind institute of
technology bit, and I've beenlegally blind, or blind my
(02:34):
entire life started as youth uh,legally blind.
And at the time, jandel, I hadno idea and I grew up in a small
town, northeast ohio, and itwas first grade that you know
you.
They send kids down to thenurse's office, I'm suspecting,
and you stick your head in somekind of like helmet thing and
the nurse says you know what'sthe color of the closest balloon
?
And I'm like no idea.
And so the small townoptometrist really small town,
(02:56):
you know go in there.
My mom makes an appointment andthe optometrist didn't have
powerful enough equipment andsaid your son is faking it.
Here's a placebo pair of glassesand keep them six feet from the
TV.
And my mom knew within hours ordays that you know it was BS.
And so next town over, nexttown over, finally, Cleveland
Clinic fairly renowned, you knoworganization in Northeast Ohio.
(03:18):
They did some experimentalprocedures on me at the time and
this is in the seventies andyou know the the doctor comes
out to the waiting room and says, uh, your son's got the
earliest onset of maculardegeneration that we've ever
seen.
It was a misdiagnosis, but theidea of a retinal degenerative
disease was in play.
He says your son's going to betotally blind by time he turns
(03:40):
18.
And so I look up at my mom youknow I'm seven years old and I
said, mom, what's blind?
Yeah, and with the strength, heturns 18.
And so I look up at my mom youknow I'm seven years old and I
said, Mom, what's blind?
And with the strength of only amother, only a lioness.
She says it just means you'regoing to be special.
Jandel Allen-Davis (03:52):
Yeah, and you know what's beautiful is
even up to that point, in termsof how you'd been included and
how you'd been received by thosewho loved you, that you had no
concept of what blindness meant.
That's a.
Mike Hess (04:06):
That's amazing the world is not built for people
who are blind, visually impairedand really the broader
disability community.
Yeah right, I mean it, justit's just not.
And so my mom, like literally,like I always say, like uh,
gently nudged uh, whichsometimes was a firm foot to
butt and say you know like likea mom should, and she was there
(04:26):
when I clearly fell down.
She was there after I got hit bymy first car.
Again, the world is not built,it's not designed universally
for people with disabilities,and so my mom's always been
there to kind of gently get meout there but also pick me up
when I needed it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (04:44):
Talk about your after-you home sorts of
days in terms of how you findyourself doing the amazing work
you're doing now, which was on amuch smaller scale when I met
you, when you were talkingglobal, when we met a few weeks
ago.
It's like whoa you know, timing.
Mike Hess (04:59):
Timing is I mean, you know this, Jan Dale timing is
so, so like it just seems tohappen when it happens and
sometimes it's the perfecttiming.
So shortly after high school Iwas at a local community college
here in the Denver metro areaand my access teacher had told
me about a program.
So this is early 90s.
So right after the Americanswith Disabilities Act passed in
(05:21):
July of 1990, IBM sent out grantdollars to a handful of
community colleges across thecountry, and one of those
community colleges just happenedto be the Community College of
Denver and the program wascalled Computer Training for
People with Disabilities.
And that program was exactlywhat it sounded like and I had
no idea what a computerprogrammer was.
(05:42):
But I was engaged to my nowwife and she was married prior,
so I was married to like a readymade family, and so my you had
some work to do.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:51):
I had some work to do and I said so how
much does a computer programmermake Like I?
Mike Hess (05:55):
was that's right I was motivated by the Benjamins,
you know, and fortunately I hadaptitude for logic and it was a
pretty intensive program, 56credit hours and three semesters
but that was my entree intotech and so I worked 20 years in
the private industry as acomputer programmer, got other
(06:15):
Cisco certs and that sort ofthing.
So you know, I always spoketech and I was pretty good at
tech.
But one thing was just alwaysevident to me, that I was always
, always, always the token blindperson.
But quite honestly, Jendo, itwasn't just blindness.
Like I knew with my cane, Inever bumped into anybody in a
wheelchair, never heard ofanybody using sign language as
our primary means ofcommunication, and
(06:37):
neurodiversity was absolutelynot talked about.
Now, clearly, in tech, I workedaround people who are
neurodivergent.
However, you just it's.
It's this taboo conversation,and so so I, after you know, 20
years, I started doing somedigging about like, okay, well,
who's addressing this lack ofrepresentation?
And there's a lot of greatnonprofits across the country,
(06:58):
across the globe, that are, youknow, doing advocacy and
education work, but I couldn'tfind any of them that are
addressing the unemploymentepidemic.
Jandel Allen-Davis (07:05):
Talk about that unemployment, because that
was one of the startling thingsthat when we first talked by
phone, I believe back in the day.
Mike Hess (07:13):
They actually say that one in five Americans
identify with some sort ofdisability.
Now, think about that frombecause they also chronic
disease is considereddebilitating, invisible or
non-apparent right.
So if you think about, uh, sodepression, anxiety, right, and
in today's day and age I meaneven post pandemic, who isn't it
(07:36):
, at least temporarily, you know, incapacitated by anxiety and
depression?
Right, another, anotherpresidential year and oh, oh, my
God, it's going to?
You know, like all of thataffects us as human beings.
And so disability is a lot morepervasive than what.
It's not just the sensory rightLike, so it's easy to see,
cause I have a cane or a servicedog or somebody who's in a
(07:56):
wheelchair, or somebody with alimb difference who's got a
prosthetic right, those are,those are kind of the easy
visual things.
Or if you see somebody signingwith sign language, those are
the easy ones to kind ofidentify.
But the largest group isactually the invisible or
non-apparent.
It's interesting spending again20 years in corporate, every
year, jandell, like there wouldalways be sexual harassment
(08:17):
training every single year.
I never had any kind ofdisability orientation training,
you know.
And in corporate America wehave this other kind of obstacle
that no other inclusiondemographic has to overcome,
which is reasonableaccommodation, and most HR, most
(08:37):
HR representatives, they're nottruly qualified to understand
what reasonable accommodationsare right.
And so you add up all of theselike OK, so the topic of
disability is never talked about.
It's kind of.
It makes people feel a littleuncomfortable.
And then you have thisreasonable accommodation
legislation and regulations andvoila, you have this
(08:59):
unemployment number that isstaggering.
Jandel Allen-Davis (09:02):
It's staggering In my view.
It's such wasted potential andI want to get into that in a
little bit, but I want to goback to Blind Institute.
So you're activated, you are,you are ready to do something
different after 20 years ofexperiencing and sensing what
wasn't going on in the workforce.
Mike Hess (09:22):
Yeah, and I.
So I left my six figure income11 and a half years ago now,
single family income, right.
So the support again go back.
My, my wife, my, my biggestcheerleader, uh, the strength of
a lioness who was there too.
She's like I, I'm here, Isupport you.
Um, I believe in what you wantto create.
(09:43):
And Blind Institute ofTechnology, or BIT, and again,
the tech, the technologist thatI am, I took the binary bit,
which is a zero and one, andcreated the acronym Blind
Institute of Technology.
But I truly believe technologyis the greatest equalizer right
From the Wright brothers to thepencil has always been there to
help humanity overcome itsobstacles, and in the digital
(10:04):
age, technology is absolutelyessential for somebody like me,
but other people withdisabilities, to have a quality
of life, let alone their ownability to earn their nickel
Right.
So that's what BIT and Istarted BIT with.
It's all about employment, yes,and we actually.
What's unique about us as anonprofit is our business model.
(10:25):
We act as a nonprofit staffingagency Amazing, yeah.
And so there are brands, youknow super fun brands, from
(10:47):
JPMorgan Chase to CVS, allstate,salesforce, davida Healthcare,
here, locally, first Bank,elevation's Credit Union they
pay us to find them talentwithin the professionals with
disabilities community tosupport their inclusion efforts
around people with disabilitiesand it speaks volumes about them
.
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:58):
As you were saying, some of those certainly
the local brands that are alsonational, let's face it.
I see their leaders and friendswith some of their leaders, or
know them, and I just want tosay thank you to you all out
there who knew there's somethingthere Because, frankly, we're
wasting talent and we can nolonger afford to do.
It is my belief and you'remaking a difference.
Mike Hess (11:19):
And I started this as a nonprofit though, because,
quite honestly, I wanted themission to be able to open up
doors right, like I needed,cause there were a lot of
leaders like yourself again,change makers who want to make a
difference versus you know,like I'm coming in just to make
a dime, yeah Right, and so so,leveraging, you know, the
mission to open up these doorsfor us and we do keep track.
(11:43):
So we've we've actually, froman employment perspective, over
11 years, it's over 300individuals that we've gotten
people placed, and whatplacement looks like is just
like a lot of otherorganizations.
Some of them are justproject-based, some of them are
part-time hires, some, some ofthem are full-time hires, some
of them just staff org right,they bring us in on a
contingency basis.
(12:04):
So we make it as simple as wecan for any organization who
just says you know what we wantto dip our toe into that BIT
pond.
Most organizations and again, Isay most because Craig is
uniquely like, again, craig is aunique situation because it's
all about disability, right.
(12:25):
And getting people back toliving their best lives, yeah
exactly, and so, however, mostorganizations like it's not a
topic and so, coming in withorganizational development,
training that helps, and weliterally have like a you know
kind of a step one, step two,step three.
(12:47):
Like we have this tieredtraining to help organizations
start to feel much morecomfortable and, and I dare say,
confident with this verysquishy, right conversation
around disability.
So we we literally havetrainings for an organization to
feel more, more confident,right, ultimately.
(13:08):
And then when we get people inthere, then it's that like we
don't want to just do one anddone, we want to cultivate that
relationship right, and so it's.
So.
I love being a non-profitbecause it's all about
relationships.
Ultimately, I'm in sales, but II don't know anything about
sales, jandel, but relationships, it's just, you know it's, it's
, it's all about relationships.
Ultimately, I'm in sales, but Idon't know anything about sales
, jandell.
But relationships, it's just,you know, it's caring about,
(13:30):
like, what you're aiming to doas a leader and is there a way
that we can help?
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:34):
Our job here is that we are focused on
independence and at the core ofit.
There's a lot of components toindependence, but one for sure
is financial and economicindependence and the ability to
self, ability to beself-sufficient that way and
jobs are a part of that when youare visually impaired or blind,
(13:55):
there is a heightening of othersenses that are used that we
who can see may not benecessarily.
Despite seeing, we can becompletely missing in terms of
interactions with people.
Can you talk about that?
Mike Hess (14:10):
So there's kind of a myth like, oh, you know, your
ears must be so much better, andI'm like, yeah, ask my wife.
So you know, full disclosure.
I'm still a dude, I have veryselective hearing at times,
right?
So, joking aside, it's aboutfocus and there's so much.
There's like the brain, theneuroscientists like they're
(14:32):
able to prove, like it's notnecessarily like, oh, like
you're, you've got heightenedsenses because you're blind,
it's actually because of focus.
So I'm I'm forced to focusclearly and I always say like I
was, I was, I am a really goodtechnologist and it's because of
my blindness.
So when I'm talking to you knowthe business cause, you know
(14:53):
business requirements come down.
It's the business who has perstrings, so they've got the
budget to say we want this to bedone with our technology.
Who has purse strings?
So they've got the budget tosay we want this to be done with
our technology.
Like my projects that I managedwere always on time and on
budget and really it's.
I think again I go back to itwas because I was focused on
what they were asking and then Iwas asking questions so I
wasn't visually distracted,right with everything else, all
(15:17):
the other stuff that's going onin the room and everything, like
I'm laser, I'm laser focused,right, even though I'm not, you
know, looking at you.
I am focused on you because Idon't have any other visual.
You know, I'm not like, oh,squirrel, you know I don't, I
don't have that, janelle andthere.
So there have been times, uh,we've sent talent to you know
(15:41):
employers and, and I'll have youknow, the employer reach out
and like, hey, thank you forsending you know, the person
with the pink hair to us.
And I'm like huh, and they'relike, oh wait, and like like,
yeah, sorry, do you meanso-and-so?
And they're, and they're like,oh, yeah, you, you wouldn't, you
wouldn't know.
And I'm like, so we think about, if you extrapolate that like
how much of the hiring processis determined based on
(16:02):
somebody's visual appearance.
It's bias, it is Thank you.
Jandell, and it's color of skin.
You know a bling tattoos, whatthey're wearing, cultural
differences Like, and I don't.
I and here's the thing I don'tsee any of that Like, quite
(16:22):
honestly.
Like what an advantage I haveduring the hiring process,
because I'm really focused onwhat, the content that's coming
out of somebody's mouth and theskills that they're displaying
Wow.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:28):
And so the people that you end up placing.
What's the success rate, what'sthe retention rate?
Mike Hess (16:33):
So, we're how we're, that's, we're killing it on that
Like, so like.
We have statistics.
So our, our medium salary thatpeople are getting hired in is
more than 60K a year, which isagain so we're focused on you
know, you know solid, not youknow business, back office,
business oriented skills andafter five years of employment,
63% have been promoted at leastonce, and an average salary
(16:53):
after five years of more than140K.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:56):
Oh my goodness, so they're not just
(17:24):
there, just you know they are.
They're killing it.
Oh my goodness.
Equity, diversity, inclusionand accessibility because we are
very clear about the A here atCraig and continue to talk about
it more in community, as muchas possible in community.
There's work for the employerto do.
How do we create inclusiveworkplaces that respect
difference, and one of them isthis whole topic of reasonable
(17:45):
accommodations.
You've already used that wordonce in our interview today, but
how do you think about it andhow do you work alongside
employers to talk about what's areasonable accommodation?
Mike Hess (17:56):
Sure, yeah, and what are kind of our step two in our
trainings?
We call it empowerment training.
So please forgive me, I don't.
I don't like the termdisability etiquette.
Jandel Allen-Davis (18:05):
I don't think technology it is how
people with disabilities aregoing to be successful.
Mike Hess (18:27):
And so when you talk about the technology component,
that means you got to have amindset inside the organization
of just realizing, like okay, sothink about this from an
anxiety perspective.
Like there's apps on your smartdevices now that keep track of
your, your heart rate andeverything else.
So if you're having an anxietyattack, right, you're, you're at
, like it's so, technology, soit's not just a blindness thing,
(18:49):
right, we know this.
For if you've got diabetes,right, like there's all these
technologies that aren't it'snot just for blind people, but
so to for an organization torealize like, oh so, technology
is the reasonable accommodation.
So if we, if we go to thatextreme, right, so it doesn't
matter if it's blindness or ifit's deafness, right, with
closed captioning, all that sortof thing, or if it's, you know,
(19:10):
chronic diseases, that like, sotechnology is the reasonable
accommodation.
What do we not expecttechnology to help us with?
Right, because technology islike it's everywhere, it is.
Right and so.
So for organizations just torealize like, oh so technology
is the solution.
Yeah, technology is thesolution.
But we need leadership to justacknowledge that Right and start
(19:31):
to be like almost take thislike a little bit of a breath
and be like, oh okay, I get it,so technology is the solution.
Because then when leaders startthinking of me as somebody
who's blind, that technology isthe solution, they're like, oh
yeah, we use technology foreverything.
Jandel Allen-Davis (20:10):
And the reality is the ability to do
this is super recent when youconsider 11 years ago, when you
started the Blind Institute ofTechnology, relative to what
these little things calledsmartphones can do these days,
what eye gaze technology can dofor someone who's unable to
express themselves vocally.
The ability of devices now toopen doors, to make your home
smart, smart homes yep.
We as employers have work to doaround what it means to work
alongside people and have trulyan organization that's built on
(20:30):
a framework of inclusion andbelonging.
And let technology be part ofthat, but aren't there other
parts?
Mike Hess (20:37):
So the big hairy monster in the room is bias, is
for real.
Like I tell people all the timeI'm blind, not dead.
I can feel, you know, like, so,my, my wife, you know, for
example, she brought me into thebuilding today, right,
generally speaking.
So when my, my wife is, likeyou know, acting as my sherpa,
at that point you know likepeople will be, they'll talk.
(21:00):
So, even though I'm asking thequestion again, I can hear that
they're answering my wife, notme, because there's there's this
uncomfortableness arounddisability and I can feel that,
as a as a blind person, we bringour training into organizations
.
We call it empowerment.
It's not disability etiquette,it's empowered.
We want to empowerorganizations and leaders to
(21:22):
feel more confident around usBecause, if we think about this,
jando, disability is part ofthe human condition.
If we're so lucky to live, tobe 90 or in our centurion ages,
like father, I have somedisabilities.
Jandel Allen-Davis (21:34):
Yeah, father time is undefeated.
Mike Hess (21:36):
Right Our cognitive is going to diminish.
Our motor skills are going todiminish.
Right Our sight is going todiminish our hearing.
So disability is part of thehuman condition and yet we're
terrified to talk about it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (21:48):
The interesting thing about what
you're bringing up is thecultural elements needed to
support an inclusive workplacewhere people feel like they
belong, regardless's regardlessof ability.
Mike Hess (22:00):
So that's leadership, that's leadership and that's
like talk about that.
It's you, it's jandell, it'sit's leaders like you who and
and call it like eight, nineyears ago, when we first were
talking the organization youwere previously in, even though
you were you in your level, andI think you were a vice
president or something- at thetime like you, you, you wanted
(22:21):
to make things happen for BIT.
Even at that time you wereshackled, you were hamstrung,
you were incapable.
You were unable to do thisbecause of the lack of
initiative or intention fromyour leadership.
So I love ERG, brg.
So employment resource groups,business resource groups, these
(22:42):
are all great to feel you know,belonging and all that kind of
stuff.
However, no initiative is goingto take off and be supported
without leadership saying we'regoing to do this and it doesn't
mean like we're spendingmillions and millions of dollars
.
No, no, no.
Our training is ridiculouslycheap.
Again, we're a nonprofit.
Our staffing costs areridiculously cheap.
It's all about the.
(23:04):
So, again, an HR manager is notgoing to do anything, working
with us without the initiative.
Jandel Allen-Davis (23:09):
For somebody like you, I feel somewhat
compelled to say this isn't anad for BIT, this is basic
relational relationshipeducation.
Cause what I hear you sayingand this isn't given away, your
secret sauce or anything is thatthis is doable with will and
intention from leadership.
Mike Hess (23:29):
We want to create this, this feeling, this
inclusive feeling, withorganizations like to realize,
like, because at the end of ourmission as a nonprofit is
gainful employment for thiscommunity, right, there's going
to be such a shortage in talentthat leaders are going to have
to start like saying, all right,I looked under that rock.
I looked under that rock, oh,here's a rock I didn't even know
(23:50):
existed and that it's not likethis mystical place we are.
It's just like.
Is your environment truly like?
Again, think it is your website.
It's just like.
Is your environment truly like?
Again, think it is your website.
Jandel Allen-Davis (24:02):
Now, craig is totally unique, right, but
does your website haverepresentation from people of
color, people from therelationship orientation
differences, people withdisabilities to include people
with canes and are using signlanguage.
I have an opinion about whatI'm about to ask you, but of all
the disabilities, which onescan be most challenging for
employers, and why?
Mike Hess (24:23):
So in our trainings we use Daniel Kahneman, who's a.
Nobel Prize winning economist.
So loss aversion is a againNobel Prize winning theory and
it has to do with economics.
However, when you read his booksand you read his material, it's
even beyond just economics, andbecause loss is something that
(24:46):
we as human beings have thisaversion towards, whether it's
economics or otherwise.
So if you think about somebodywho's in a wheelchair, somebody
with a limb difference, aprosthetic, somebody who's blind
, and or somebody who you canactively see using sign language
, right, those visibledisabilities, it immediately
invokes this loss aversion.
(25:07):
So, just off the you know, likemy immediate gut feeling, so
when people can see that, thatimmediate loss aversion will
kick in.
And so therefore, like in, lossaversion is named because p a
human beings, unless you're asociopath, unless you're a
sociopath, um, so uh, you havethe ability to feel empathy,
(25:31):
right, and so the vast majorityof humans can feel empathy.
And so if you're able to putyourself in my shoes or in my
wheelchair, you immediately arelike oh my gosh, I don't know
how I, I don't know how I woulddo this, I don't know how I
would do that, I don't know.
So to me it's a verypsychological experience that's
(25:53):
happening, it's an emotionalexperience, that's happening
from the visual sense.
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:57):
But it can be overcome.
Mike Hess (25:59):
Education from the visual sense, but it can be
overcome.
Education like again we.
We go back to like I just youknow, I mean if, if people
really struggle with you knowsomebody, you know people of
color, that sort of thing bestthing you can do, get a friend
that's a person of color andrealize that we have more in
common as a human race than wehave differences you know, I I
think about that and know thatfrom the experience of being
(26:20):
here five and a half years isthat very quickly, I both see
our patients, our grads, and Istop seeing.
Jandel Allen-Davis (26:31):
I want to see the disability through the
lens of all that it brings andhow it enriches cultures,
enriches our worlds, how ittransforms and changes lives Not
always for the better.
Nobody wants to come to Craig,but it's amazing what, back to
you talked about focus from theperspective of blindness.
For those who we serve, we haveseen people dig deeper and
(26:55):
learn things about themselvesthat they never thought possible
.
So there's almost this fullness, this sort of living more fully
into who you are.
So that's what we get to see,and at the same time, I cease to
see, as you call it, the losses, this aversion.
What did they lose?
And it happens real quickly andit's because we're surrounded
by them.
Mike Hess (27:16):
You've immersed.
Jandel Allen-Davis (27:18):
And until we immerse workplaces in folks
with disabilities.
We'll continue to have thisthem-us thing.
I was going to answer, but nowyou should ask me the question
because I think it would open upanother really interesting term
.
Mike Hess (27:32):
I'm very curious from a leadership perspective right
so again, ceo of a really uniquespecial place.
Okay, so think back when youfirst met me and I came in with
a cane.
So you tell me like what fromyour perspective?
Jandel Allen-Davis (27:48):
Well, it didn't bother me.
I guess I'm one of those peoplewho's not, I'm not averted or
don't have a strong sense ofaversion when I see somebody
with a disability.
So that's just who I am.
Maybe some of it's caring forpatients for 25 years and
getting the opportunity to seepeople of all shapes, sizes,
(28:08):
colors, stripes, but actuallythe way I would answer the
question in terms of who I thinkit's most difficult for
employers and I think this is animportant thing to have some
conversation about.
It's actually the unseendisability and I don't even know
that it's a fair word to usefrankly called neurodiversion.
I think that's the toughest one,because this is the stuff that
(28:31):
people.
It starts in middle school, itstarts in grade school the kid
who's different, who getsmarginalized, who's shunned,
who's bullied.
And I'm not sure thatworkplaces and employers know
how to recognize it.
And someone said this amazingquote, because this hit me just
a few months ago that we aresurrounded by people who are
(28:51):
different this way.
We are surrounded by people whoare different this way, and we
(29:11):
have workplace policies andrules and all sorts of things
that way that may be in conflictor make it difficult for people
who are neurodiverse toactually work within the
workplace, and someone said thequote was we hire for diversity,
we train for conformity.
Did you think about that,whether it's neurodivergent?
or you know, whetherneurodivergent, or who is a
wheelchair user or has had abrain injury and has some
(29:33):
changes that happen that way interms of how they navigate the
world.
What's our requirement?
How do we, how do we begin tochange mindsets of managers and
leaders and how do our policiesand all have to change in order
to really accommodate this, withthe understanding that there's
still work to do and we do have,I mean, we do have missions and
we have purposes.
Mike Hess (29:54):
Yeah, if you're attempting to figure out
policies and procedure acrossthe entire organization and
trying to figure out like, okay,can somebody who's got ASD even
high functioning do everysingle role in your hospital
right now?
Versus let's find the matchright, like to me, it's really
it's, it's, it's's.
(30:14):
Let's find not not just you asthe leader right, but also some
one of your other team memberswho is equally as passionate
about making a success storyhappen.
And it's just being thoughtfuland it's it to me, it's not just
jandel attempting to boil anocean.
It is absolutely like findingthe allies like that are on your
(30:35):
team and I promise you you haveallies on your team.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:38):
Oh, I know I do.
I've got a thousand of themyeah.
Mike Hess (30:40):
And it's impossible for you to know every.
I mean you know you've been inhealthcare your whole life
there's still, there's a,there's a whole lot of you know
functions and stuff that arehappening that you know.
You probably just you knowperipheral about what's going on
and I just I feel like there'slike you just start 1%, like
you're going to find a role thata blind person, a deaf person,
somebody with ASD, and here'sthe beauty about that.
(31:03):
So if you can find that onerole or that one department here
at Craig, you telling me thatwe can't take that same model to
Swedish, to Denver health, toKP, to children's hospital,
that's how you, as a leader,create systemic change.
It's through 1%.
Jandel Allen-Davis (31:23):
Yeah, you know we're seeing more, and it's
really been sometimes, I think.
Do I see it now because ofwhere I work, or is the world
changing?
And I think it's a bit of both,but for sure the world is
changing.
We're seeing people who arewheelchair users in advertising
(31:43):
and marketing.
There are clothing lines thatare moving in that direction.
We're seeing some changeshappening that way.
There are days, especiallygiven my journey as an
African-American woman, that thechange ain't happening fast
enough, but it is happening.
(32:04):
So I just love to sit back andlisten to you get a little
ministerial in dream.
What do you want this world ofemployment to look like 10 years
, 20 years from now?
And I'll get some tissues.
Mike Hess (32:13):
Yeah, you know, jandell like.
Jandel Allen-Davis (32:15):
Tell me what it looks like, what's not your,
not just your institution.
But just dream for a bit.
Mike Hess (32:23):
I tell people this you know so, like I'll never
have a bigot cop put his knee onmy neck ever Because I'm
Caucasian Like I'll never havethat, Jandell, but I've had the
fortune 10 000 put their knee onmy financial neck my entire
life, like I.
So the unemployment numberslike again, people can twist
(32:46):
numbers however they want, butyou see the numbers right, and I
stopped asking executives sohow many blind people, how many
deaf people do you have workingfor you?
It's a really uncomfortablesilence, right and so for me.
So I started BIT.
I'm like 10,000.
You got to have a goal.
You got to have a big, hairy,audacious goal.
Let's get 10,000 people withdisabilities gainfully employed.
(33:08):
Right, and think about that.
That's only one per fortune.
10,000.
That is such a low bar to hitand yet you look at the
statistics, that seems like ageneration away.
Like we, in 11 years we've beenable to get 300 plus people
placed.
I'm so thrilled in the stories,the lives that we've impacted,
(33:29):
cause I put my, my phone number,my email address is on my
website, like I make myselfridiculously available and in
the stories, and I do thisbecause that I work for them.
I work for that population thatis omitted like it's.
It's bad here in the UnitedStates, it is horrible
everywhere else and I work forthem and it's just like I don't
(33:50):
ever want to not be available tothis community, this amazing
community.
I don't have enough Jandels inmy back pocket to get these
amazing people working again.
Jandel Allen-Davis (34:01):
So we need more people to we need more
Jandels, so in 20 years.
Mike Hess (34:08):
What's it look like if you're successful, If I'm
successful, we've hit our 10,000in 20 years.
But we just quite honestly like, if I can get just one percent
of your time and introduce me toone other, I mean just think,
think of the power of that rightlike one ceo introducing me to
another ceo, to like, like, like.
Yes, we can get 10 000 peoplewith disabilities gainfully
employed in 20 years and we needway more than that we need way
(34:33):
more than that because that'snot going to even solve
no-transcript.
But all of a sudden you have abenchmark now, yeah, and you
have enough data to support likeah, okay, yeah, this is more of
a value add than a risk.
Jandel Allen-Davis (34:43):
Yeah, when you lay your head on the pillow
at night.
What makes you most proud aboutwhat you do and what you've
accomplished as a leader?
Mike Hess (34:53):
I've got so many emails of people who like, like,
they're, like, you know, you'vechanged my life.
Like it's it's, it's it's our,it's the people.
It's why you're the ceo of this, this amazing organization.
It's the people that we get totouch and they, they reach out
and you know, and, and to me I'ma facilitator, that's all I am
(35:15):
right.
Like I, I and you know, and tome I'm a facilitator, that's all
I am right.
Like I facilitate relationships.
You know this relationship withthat relationship, and these,
this talented, you know personwith this organization looking
like, so I just facilitate,that's all I do, right?
Like you know, some of theseideas, yeah, they're, they're
mine, but I didn't, you know,like I'm just, I'm a servant,
(35:53):
that's all I am.
And I think good leaders areservants.
That's you.
Jandel Allen-Davis (35:53):
You're here to serve and just be that
facilitator of makingtransactions happen at the end
of the day, and I'm super proudof that.
And yet I'm like I haven't doneenough.
The statistics show I haven'tdone enough.
Well, to whatever extent, theshifts that we're seeing in the
market and in the world around,and for whatever reason that
it's driven because sometimesit's by any means necessary if
we can get our workforces, ourworkplaces, strengthened through
the power of this level ofdiversity, then both of us can
(36:14):
put our head on the pillow atnight and go well done today.
Yeah, Well done today.
I appreciate your making time.
Mike Hess (36:20):
I so love hearing your voice.
I just love reconnecting withyou again, I'm honored to be
here.
Jandel Allen-Davis (36:26):
It's not these strangers.
Mike Hess (36:27):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jandel Allen-Davis (36:29):
Oh well, thank you.
Thank you.
All I can say about theinterview that we just did is
(36:49):
wow.
There was a moment where I gottearful.
As I said when Mike talkedabout, I, will never have a
bigoted cop with a knee on myneck, but I have plenty of folks
or organizations or a worldthat has a knee on my.
Financial potential, I'd say,let alone reality at a given
time, the idea of thinking aboutwhat is possible in workplaces,
that's win-win, I'd saywin-win-win for institutions,
(37:10):
communities and individuals.
If we widen the aperture andthink about not disability, but
actually differently abled andwhat is actually born, or what
arises, what emerges when onefinds oneself unable or to do
what they used to do or to dothings differently, or who were
(37:32):
born into less than fullycapable, is defined by the, in
some ways narrow ways.
We think about that as humanbeings.
We need more Mike Hesses.
We need more Mike Hessesbecause we are at a point we all
know, looking at the statistics, where we have no other choice
and thank God for that that wehave no other choice, because we
(37:54):
will now be, I hope, motivatedmore than forced to think about
widening our aperture around whois able to work within our
organizations, and whatbeautiful ways they will enrich
the tapestry of ourorganizations, enrich the
tapestry of our purpose, of ourmissions, through doing the
(38:16):
little bit and honestly, it isthe little bit that's required
to accommodate, in reasonableand appropriate fashions, those
who need extra help in order tohelp us all achieve the goals we
need to.
What does this all have to dowith leadership and culture,
which is what this podcast, atthe heart of it, is about.
(38:38):
As I listened to Mike andlistened to his story, there
were so many things that emerged.
First, his mother and how shesaw him How's that for a play on
words as a fully capable humanbeing who didn't realize what
blindness was until he was seven.
So what had that seven yearsbeen like for him?
(39:02):
In a way that he saw a placefor himself in the world, and he
had a mom, he had a championwho did that for him.
Where's our leadership courageto be the champions for so many
others, I say it takes courage.
It takes courage.
That's the leadership capacitythat I think Mike exemplifies
and those he works alongsideexemplify and, in turn, are not
just changing individual livesbut are changing organizational
(39:25):
cultures and, in turn, arechanging and transforming
communities.
So with that I want to thankyou again for joining us for
Unstoppable at Craig.
It's just know that I feel aspecial connection to those of
you who make the time to listenand I hope it shifts you just a
little bit, if not a big bit.
How's that for a play on words?
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we
pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace cultures
click and what happens whenpeople are empowered to expand
the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
I'm Dr Jandell Allen CEO andPresident of Preg Hospital, a
(00:26):
world-renowned rehabilitationhospital that exclusively
specializes in theneuro-rehabilitation and
research of patients with spinalcord and brain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation Stifle Innovation.
I am so thrilled to have theopportunity to spend time with
(00:50):
Mike Hess, who's from the BlindInstitute of Technology.
He's an old colleague, friendbuddy, who I met several years
ago, and I remember some of whatwe talked about around
opportunities for employment forpeople with, in the case we
were talking about, who arevisually impaired in different
ways or had low visibility interms of vision, and it's been
(01:12):
something that not only hasstuck with me since our time
together, and there have beenmany times over the years, in
different settings.
In particular, though, in thislast five years since I came to
Craig Hospital that I've thoughtabout you or your name has come
up, or I've told folks aboutyou.
So it's a real honor andprivilege to get to do this
together, and I haven't seen youin so many years, so that was
fun too.
(01:32):
But what I think would be agreat way to start is just to
tell us about you and the workyou're doing in the world.
Mike Hess (01:40):
Thank you, jandell, and I really it's my honor, it's
my pleasure to be here inperson, right Like with you
again.
Our conversations have alwaysbeen enlightening and spirited
and I love talking to you.
Know, change makerpractitioners.
Right Like a lot of people talkabout being a change maker.
However, the seat that you arecurrently sitting in is done so
(02:06):
by somebody who actually wantsto affect change versus just
talk about change.
But for your listeners, my nameis Mike Hess and I'm executive
director and founder at aColorado-based nonprofit truly
making a global difference, nowcalled blind institute of
technology bit, and I've beenlegally blind, or blind my
(02:34):
entire life started as youth uh,legally blind.
And at the time, jandel, I hadno idea and I grew up in a small
town, northeast ohio, and itwas first grade that you know
you.
They send kids down to thenurse's office, I'm suspecting,
and you stick your head in somekind of like helmet thing and
the nurse says you know what'sthe color of the closest balloon
?
And I'm like no idea.
And so the small townoptometrist really small town,
(02:56):
you know go in there.
My mom makes an appointment andthe optometrist didn't have
powerful enough equipment andsaid your son is faking it.
Here's a placebo pair of glassesand keep them six feet from the
TV.
And my mom knew within hours ordays that you know it was BS.
And so next town over, nexttown over, finally, Cleveland
Clinic fairly renowned, you knoworganization in Northeast Ohio.
(03:18):
They did some experimentalprocedures on me at the time and
this is in the seventies andyou know the the doctor comes
out to the waiting room and says, uh, your son's got the
earliest onset of maculardegeneration that we've ever
seen.
It was a misdiagnosis, but theidea of a retinal degenerative
disease was in play.
He says your son's going to betotally blind by time he turns
(03:40):
18.
And so I look up at my mom youknow I'm seven years old and I
said, mom, what's blind?
Yeah, and with the strength, heturns 18.
And so I look up at my mom youknow I'm seven years old and I
said, Mom, what's blind?
And with the strength of only amother, only a lioness.
She says it just means you'regoing to be special.
Jandel Allen-Davis (03:52):
Yeah, and you know what's beautiful is
even up to that point, in termsof how you'd been included and
how you'd been received by thosewho loved you, that you had no
concept of what blindness meant.
That's a.
Mike Hess (04:06):
That's amazing the world is not built for people
who are blind, visually impairedand really the broader
disability community.
Yeah right, I mean it, justit's just not.
And so my mom, like literally,like I always say, like uh,
gently nudged uh, whichsometimes was a firm foot to
butt and say you know like likea mom should, and she was there
(04:26):
when I clearly fell down.
She was there after I got hit bymy first car.
Again, the world is not built,it's not designed universally
for people with disabilities,and so my mom's always been
there to kind of gently get meout there but also pick me up
when I needed it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (04:44):
Talk about your after-you home sorts of
days in terms of how you findyourself doing the amazing work
you're doing now, which was on amuch smaller scale when I met
you, when you were talkingglobal, when we met a few weeks
ago.
It's like whoa you know, timing.
Mike Hess (04:59):
Timing is I mean, you know this, Jan Dale timing is
so, so like it just seems tohappen when it happens and
sometimes it's the perfecttiming.
So shortly after high school Iwas at a local community college
here in the Denver metro areaand my access teacher had told
me about a program.
So this is early 90s.
So right after the Americanswith Disabilities Act passed in
(05:21):
July of 1990, IBM sent out grantdollars to a handful of
community colleges across thecountry, and one of those
community colleges just happenedto be the Community College of
Denver and the program wascalled Computer Training for
People with Disabilities.
And that program was exactlywhat it sounded like and I had
no idea what a computerprogrammer was.
(05:42):
But I was engaged to my nowwife and she was married prior,
so I was married to like a readymade family, and so my you had
some work to do.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:51):
I had some work to do and I said so how
much does a computer programmermake Like I?
Mike Hess (05:55):
was that's right I was motivated by the Benjamins,
you know, and fortunately I hadaptitude for logic and it was a
pretty intensive program, 56credit hours and three semesters
but that was my entree intotech and so I worked 20 years in
the private industry as acomputer programmer, got other
(06:15):
Cisco certs and that sort ofthing.
So you know, I always spoketech and I was pretty good at
tech.
But one thing was just alwaysevident to me, that I was always
, always, always the token blindperson.
But quite honestly, Jendo, itwasn't just blindness.
Like I knew with my cane, Inever bumped into anybody in a
wheelchair, never heard ofanybody using sign language as
our primary means ofcommunication, and
(06:37):
neurodiversity was absolutelynot talked about.
Now, clearly, in tech, I workedaround people who are
neurodivergent.
However, you just it's.
It's this taboo conversation,and so so I, after you know, 20
years, I started doing somedigging about like, okay, well,
who's addressing this lack ofrepresentation?
And there's a lot of greatnonprofits across the country,
(06:58):
across the globe, that are, youknow, doing advocacy and
education work, but I couldn'tfind any of them that are
addressing the unemploymentepidemic.
Jandel Allen-Davis (07:05):
Talk about that unemployment, because that
was one of the startling thingsthat when we first talked by
phone, I believe back in the day.
Mike Hess (07:13):
They actually say that one in five Americans
identify with some sort ofdisability.
Now, think about that frombecause they also chronic
disease is considereddebilitating, invisible or
non-apparent right.
So if you think about, uh, sodepression, anxiety, right, and
in today's day and age I meaneven post pandemic, who isn't it
(07:36):
, at least temporarily, you know, incapacitated by anxiety and
depression?
Right, another, anotherpresidential year and oh, oh, my
God, it's going to?
You know, like all of thataffects us as human beings.
And so disability is a lot morepervasive than what.
It's not just the sensory rightLike, so it's easy to see,
cause I have a cane or a servicedog or somebody who's in a
(07:56):
wheelchair, or somebody with alimb difference who's got a
prosthetic right, those are,those are kind of the easy
visual things.
Or if you see somebody signingwith sign language, those are
the easy ones to kind ofidentify.
But the largest group isactually the invisible or
non-apparent.
It's interesting spending again20 years in corporate, every
year, jandell, like there wouldalways be sexual harassment
(08:17):
training every single year.
I never had any kind ofdisability orientation training,
you know.
And in corporate America wehave this other kind of obstacle
that no other inclusiondemographic has to overcome,
which is reasonableaccommodation, and most HR, most
(08:37):
HR representatives, they're nottruly qualified to understand
what reasonable accommodationsare right.
And so you add up all of theselike OK, so the topic of
disability is never talked about.
It's kind of.
It makes people feel a littleuncomfortable.
And then you have thisreasonable accommodation
legislation and regulations andvoila, you have this
(08:59):
unemployment number that isstaggering.
Jandel Allen-Davis (09:02):
It's staggering In my view.
It's such wasted potential andI want to get into that in a
little bit, but I want to goback to Blind Institute.
So you're activated, you are,you are ready to do something
different after 20 years ofexperiencing and sensing what
wasn't going on in the workforce.
Mike Hess (09:22):
Yeah, and I.
So I left my six figure income11 and a half years ago now,
single family income, right.
So the support again go back.
My, my wife, my, my biggestcheerleader, uh, the strength of
a lioness who was there too.
She's like I, I'm here, Isupport you.
Um, I believe in what you wantto create.
(09:43):
And Blind Institute ofTechnology, or BIT, and again,
the tech, the technologist thatI am, I took the binary bit,
which is a zero and one, andcreated the acronym Blind
Institute of Technology.
But I truly believe technologyis the greatest equalizer right
From the Wright brothers to thepencil has always been there to
help humanity overcome itsobstacles, and in the digital
(10:04):
age, technology is absolutelyessential for somebody like me,
but other people withdisabilities, to have a quality
of life, let alone their ownability to earn their nickel
Right.
So that's what BIT and Istarted BIT with.
It's all about employment, yes,and we actually.
What's unique about us as anonprofit is our business model.
(10:25):
We act as a nonprofit staffingagency Amazing, yeah.
And so there are brands, youknow super fun brands, from
(10:47):
JPMorgan Chase to CVS, allstate,salesforce, davida Healthcare,
here, locally, first Bank,elevation's Credit Union they
pay us to find them talentwithin the professionals with
disabilities community tosupport their inclusion efforts
around people with disabilitiesand it speaks volumes about them
.
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:58):
As you were saying, some of those certainly
the local brands that are alsonational, let's face it.
I see their leaders and friendswith some of their leaders, or
know them, and I just want tosay thank you to you all out
there who knew there's somethingthere Because, frankly, we're
wasting talent and we can nolonger afford to do.
It is my belief and you'remaking a difference.
Mike Hess (11:19):
And I started this as a nonprofit though, because,
quite honestly, I wanted themission to be able to open up
doors right, like I needed,cause there were a lot of
leaders like yourself again,change makers who want to make a
difference versus you know,like I'm coming in just to make
a dime, yeah Right, and so so,leveraging, you know, the
mission to open up these doorsfor us and we do keep track.
(11:43):
So we've we've actually, froman employment perspective, over
11 years, it's over 300individuals that we've gotten
people placed, and whatplacement looks like is just
like a lot of otherorganizations.
Some of them are justproject-based, some of them are
part-time hires, some, some ofthem are full-time hires, some
of them just staff org right,they bring us in on a
contingency basis.
(12:04):
So we make it as simple as wecan for any organization who
just says you know what we wantto dip our toe into that BIT
pond.
Most organizations and again, Isay most because Craig is
uniquely like, again, craig is aunique situation because it's
all about disability, right.
(12:25):
And getting people back toliving their best lives, yeah
exactly, and so, however, mostorganizations like it's not a
topic and so, coming in withorganizational development,
training that helps, and weliterally have like a you know
kind of a step one, step two,step three.
(12:47):
Like we have this tieredtraining to help organizations
start to feel much morecomfortable and, and I dare say,
confident with this verysquishy, right conversation
around disability.
So we we literally havetrainings for an organization to
feel more, more confident,right, ultimately.
(13:08):
And then when we get people inthere, then it's that like we
don't want to just do one anddone, we want to cultivate that
relationship right, and so it's.
So.
I love being a non-profitbecause it's all about
relationships.
Ultimately, I'm in sales, but II don't know anything about
sales, jandel, but relationships, it's just, you know it's, it's
, it's all about relationships.
Ultimately, I'm in sales, but Idon't know anything about sales
, jandell.
But relationships, it's just,you know, it's caring about,
(13:30):
like, what you're aiming to doas a leader and is there a way
that we can help?
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:34):
Our job here is that we are focused on
independence and at the core ofit.
There's a lot of components toindependence, but one for sure
is financial and economicindependence and the ability to
self, ability to beself-sufficient that way and
jobs are a part of that when youare visually impaired or blind,
(13:55):
there is a heightening of othersenses that are used that we
who can see may not benecessarily.
Despite seeing, we can becompletely missing in terms of
interactions with people.
Can you talk about that?
Mike Hess (14:10):
So there's kind of a myth like, oh, you know, your
ears must be so much better, andI'm like, yeah, ask my wife.
So you know, full disclosure.
I'm still a dude, I have veryselective hearing at times,
right?
So, joking aside, it's aboutfocus and there's so much.
There's like the brain, theneuroscientists like they're
(14:32):
able to prove, like it's notnecessarily like, oh, like
you're, you've got heightenedsenses because you're blind,
it's actually because of focus.
So I'm I'm forced to focusclearly and I always say like I
was, I was, I am a really goodtechnologist and it's because of
my blindness.
So when I'm talking to you knowthe business cause, you know
(14:53):
business requirements come down.
It's the business who has perstrings, so they've got the
budget to say we want this to bedone with our technology.
Who has purse strings?
So they've got the budget tosay we want this to be done with
our technology.
Like my projects that I managedwere always on time and on
budget and really it's.
I think again I go back to itwas because I was focused on
what they were asking and then Iwas asking questions so I
wasn't visually distracted,right with everything else, all
(15:17):
the other stuff that's going onin the room and everything, like
I'm laser, I'm laser focused,right, even though I'm not, you
know, looking at you.
I am focused on you because Idon't have any other visual.
You know, I'm not like, oh,squirrel, you know I don't, I
don't have that, janelle andthere.
So there have been times, uh,we've sent talent to you know
(15:41):
employers and, and I'll have youknow, the employer reach out
and like, hey, thank you forsending you know, the person
with the pink hair to us.
And I'm like huh, and they'relike, oh wait, and like like,
yeah, sorry, do you meanso-and-so?
And they're, and they're like,oh, yeah, you, you wouldn't, you
wouldn't know.
And I'm like, so we think about, if you extrapolate that like
how much of the hiring processis determined based on
(16:02):
somebody's visual appearance.
It's bias, it is Thank you.
Jandell, and it's color of skin.
You know a bling tattoos, whatthey're wearing, cultural
differences Like, and I don't.
I and here's the thing I don'tsee any of that Like, quite
(16:22):
honestly.
Like what an advantage I haveduring the hiring process,
because I'm really focused onwhat, the content that's coming
out of somebody's mouth and theskills that they're displaying
Wow.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:28):
And so the people that you end up placing.
What's the success rate, what'sthe retention rate?
Mike Hess (16:33):
So, we're how we're, that's, we're killing it on that
Like, so like.
We have statistics.
So our, our medium salary thatpeople are getting hired in is
more than 60K a year, which isagain so we're focused on you
know, you know solid, not youknow business, back office,
business oriented skills andafter five years of employment,
63% have been promoted at leastonce, and an average salary
(16:53):
after five years of more than140K.
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:56):
Oh my goodness, so they're not just
(17:24):
there, just you know they are.
They're killing it.
Oh my goodness.
Equity, diversity, inclusionand accessibility because we are
very clear about the A here atCraig and continue to talk about
it more in community, as muchas possible in community.
There's work for the employerto do.
How do we create inclusiveworkplaces that respect
difference, and one of them isthis whole topic of reasonable
(17:45):
accommodations.
You've already used that wordonce in our interview today, but
how do you think about it andhow do you work alongside
employers to talk about what's areasonable accommodation?
Mike Hess (17:56):
Sure, yeah, and what are kind of our step two in our
trainings?
We call it empowerment training.
So please forgive me, I don't.
I don't like the termdisability etiquette.
Jandel Allen-Davis (18:05):
I don't think technology it is how
people with disabilities aregoing to be successful.
Mike Hess (18:27):
And so when you talk about the technology component,
that means you got to have amindset inside the organization
of just realizing, like okay, sothink about this from an
anxiety perspective.
Like there's apps on your smartdevices now that keep track of
your, your heart rate andeverything else.
So if you're having an anxietyattack, right, you're, you're at
, like it's so, technology, soit's not just a blindness thing,
(18:49):
right, we know this.
For if you've got diabetes,right, like there's all these
technologies that aren't it'snot just for blind people, but
so to for an organization torealize like, oh so, technology
is the reasonable accommodation.
So if we, if we go to thatextreme, right, so it doesn't
matter if it's blindness or ifit's deafness, right, with
closed captioning, all that sortof thing, or if it's, you know,
(19:10):
chronic diseases, that like, sotechnology is the reasonable
accommodation.
What do we not expecttechnology to help us with?
Right, because technology islike it's everywhere, it is.
Right and so.
So for organizations just torealize like, oh so technology
is the solution.
Yeah, technology is thesolution.
But we need leadership to justacknowledge that Right and start
(19:31):
to be like almost take thislike a little bit of a breath
and be like, oh okay, I get it,so technology is the solution.
Because then when leaders startthinking of me as somebody
who's blind, that technology isthe solution, they're like, oh
yeah, we use technology foreverything.
Jandel Allen-Davis (20:10):
And the reality is the ability to do
this is super recent when youconsider 11 years ago, when you
started the Blind Institute ofTechnology, relative to what
these little things calledsmartphones can do these days,
what eye gaze technology can dofor someone who's unable to
express themselves vocally.
The ability of devices now toopen doors, to make your home
smart, smart homes yep.
We as employers have work to doaround what it means to work
alongside people and have trulyan organization that's built on
(20:30):
a framework of inclusion andbelonging.
And let technology be part ofthat, but aren't there other
parts?
Mike Hess (20:37):
So the big hairy monster in the room is bias, is
for real.
Like I tell people all the timeI'm blind, not dead.
I can feel, you know, like, so,my, my wife, you know, for
example, she brought me into thebuilding today, right,
generally speaking.
So when my, my wife is, likeyou know, acting as my sherpa,
at that point you know likepeople will be, they'll talk.
(21:00):
So, even though I'm asking thequestion again, I can hear that
they're answering my wife, notme, because there's there's this
uncomfortableness arounddisability and I can feel that,
as a as a blind person, we bringour training into organizations
.
We call it empowerment.
It's not disability etiquette,it's empowered.
We want to empowerorganizations and leaders to
(21:22):
feel more confident around usBecause, if we think about this,
jando, disability is part ofthe human condition.
If we're so lucky to live, tobe 90 or in our centurion ages,
like father, I have somedisabilities.
Jandel Allen-Davis (21:34):
Yeah, father time is undefeated.
Mike Hess (21:36):
Right Our cognitive is going to diminish.
Our motor skills are going todiminish.
Right Our sight is going todiminish our hearing.
So disability is part of thehuman condition and yet we're
terrified to talk about it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (21:48):
The interesting thing about what
you're bringing up is thecultural elements needed to
support an inclusive workplacewhere people feel like they
belong, regardless's regardlessof ability.
Mike Hess (22:00):
So that's leadership, that's leadership and that's
like talk about that.
It's you, it's jandell, it'sit's leaders like you who and
and call it like eight, nineyears ago, when we first were
talking the organization youwere previously in, even though
you were you in your level, andI think you were a vice
president or something- at thetime like you, you, you wanted
(22:21):
to make things happen for BIT.
Even at that time you wereshackled, you were hamstrung,
you were incapable.
You were unable to do thisbecause of the lack of
initiative or intention fromyour leadership.
So I love ERG, brg.
So employment resource groups,business resource groups, these
(22:42):
are all great to feel you know,belonging and all that kind of
stuff.
However, no initiative is goingto take off and be supported
without leadership saying we'regoing to do this and it doesn't
mean like we're spendingmillions and millions of dollars
.
No, no, no.
Our training is ridiculouslycheap.
Again, we're a nonprofit.
Our staffing costs areridiculously cheap.
It's all about the.
(23:04):
So, again, an HR manager is notgoing to do anything, working
with us without the initiative.
Jandel Allen-Davis (23:09):
For somebody like you, I feel somewhat
compelled to say this isn't anad for BIT, this is basic
relational relationshipeducation.
Cause what I hear you sayingand this isn't given away, your
secret sauce or anything is thatthis is doable with will and
intention from leadership.
Mike Hess (23:29):
We want to create this, this feeling, this
inclusive feeling, withorganizations like to realize,
like, because at the end of ourmission as a nonprofit is
gainful employment for thiscommunity, right, there's going
to be such a shortage in talentthat leaders are going to have
to start like saying, all right,I looked under that rock.
I looked under that rock, oh,here's a rock I didn't even know
(23:50):
existed and that it's not likethis mystical place we are.
It's just like.
Is your environment truly like?
Again, think it is your website.
It's just like.
Is your environment truly like?
Again, think it is your website.
Jandel Allen-Davis (24:02):
Now, craig is totally unique, right, but
does your website haverepresentation from people of
color, people from therelationship orientation
differences, people withdisabilities to include people
with canes and are using signlanguage.
I have an opinion about whatI'm about to ask you, but of all
the disabilities, which onescan be most challenging for
employers, and why?
Mike Hess (24:23):
So in our trainings we use Daniel Kahneman, who's a.
Nobel Prize winning economist.
So loss aversion is a againNobel Prize winning theory and
it has to do with economics.
However, when you read his booksand you read his material, it's
even beyond just economics, andbecause loss is something that
(24:46):
we as human beings have thisaversion towards, whether it's
economics or otherwise.
So if you think about somebodywho's in a wheelchair, somebody
with a limb difference, aprosthetic, somebody who's blind
, and or somebody who you canactively see using sign language
, right, those visibledisabilities, it immediately
invokes this loss aversion.
(25:07):
So, just off the you know, likemy immediate gut feeling, so
when people can see that, thatimmediate loss aversion will
kick in.
And so therefore, like in, lossaversion is named because p a
human beings, unless you're asociopath, unless you're a
sociopath, um, so uh, you havethe ability to feel empathy,
(25:31):
right, and so the vast majorityof humans can feel empathy.
And so if you're able to putyourself in my shoes or in my
wheelchair, you immediately arelike oh my gosh, I don't know
how I, I don't know how I woulddo this, I don't know how I
would do that, I don't know.
So to me it's a verypsychological experience that's
(25:53):
happening, it's an emotionalexperience, that's happening
from the visual sense.
Jandel Allen-Davis (25:57):
But it can be overcome.
Mike Hess (25:59):
Education from the visual sense, but it can be
overcome.
Education like again we.
We go back to like I just youknow, I mean if, if people
really struggle with you knowsomebody, you know people of
color, that sort of thing bestthing you can do, get a friend
that's a person of color andrealize that we have more in
common as a human race than wehave differences you know, I I
think about that and know thatfrom the experience of being
(26:20):
here five and a half years isthat very quickly, I both see
our patients, our grads, and Istop seeing.
Jandel Allen-Davis (26:31):
I want to see the disability through the
lens of all that it brings andhow it enriches cultures,
enriches our worlds, how ittransforms and changes lives Not
always for the better.
Nobody wants to come to Craig,but it's amazing what, back to
you talked about focus from theperspective of blindness.
For those who we serve, we haveseen people dig deeper and
(26:55):
learn things about themselvesthat they never thought possible
.
So there's almost this fullness, this sort of living more fully
into who you are.
So that's what we get to see,and at the same time, I cease to
see, as you call it, the losses, this aversion.
What did they lose?
And it happens real quickly andit's because we're surrounded
by them.
Mike Hess (27:16):
You've immersed.
Jandel Allen-Davis (27:18):
And until we immerse workplaces in folks
with disabilities.
We'll continue to have thisthem-us thing.
I was going to answer, but nowyou should ask me the question
because I think it would open upanother really interesting term
.
Mike Hess (27:32):
I'm very curious from a leadership perspective right
so again, ceo of a really uniquespecial place.
Okay, so think back when youfirst met me and I came in with
a cane.
So you tell me like what fromyour perspective?
Jandel Allen-Davis (27:48):
Well, it didn't bother me.
I guess I'm one of those peoplewho's not, I'm not averted or
don't have a strong sense ofaversion when I see somebody
with a disability.
So that's just who I am.
Maybe some of it's caring forpatients for 25 years and
getting the opportunity to seepeople of all shapes, sizes,
(28:08):
colors, stripes, but actuallythe way I would answer the
question in terms of who I thinkit's most difficult for
employers and I think this is animportant thing to have some
conversation about.
It's actually the unseendisability and I don't even know
that it's a fair word to usefrankly called neurodiversion.
I think that's the toughest one,because this is the stuff that
(28:31):
people.
It starts in middle school, itstarts in grade school the kid
who's different, who getsmarginalized, who's shunned,
who's bullied.
And I'm not sure thatworkplaces and employers know
how to recognize it.
And someone said this amazingquote, because this hit me just
a few months ago that we aresurrounded by people who are
(28:51):
different this way.
We are surrounded by people whoare different this way, and we
(29:11):
have workplace policies andrules and all sorts of things
that way that may be in conflictor make it difficult for people
who are neurodiverse toactually work within the
workplace, and someone said thequote was we hire for diversity,
we train for conformity.
Did you think about that,whether it's neurodivergent?
or you know, whetherneurodivergent, or who is a
wheelchair user or has had abrain injury and has some
(29:33):
changes that happen that way interms of how they navigate the
world.
What's our requirement?
How do we, how do we begin tochange mindsets of managers and
leaders and how do our policiesand all have to change in order
to really accommodate this, withthe understanding that there's
still work to do and we do have,I mean, we do have missions and
we have purposes.
Mike Hess (29:54):
Yeah, if you're attempting to figure out
policies and procedure acrossthe entire organization and
trying to figure out like, okay,can somebody who's got ASD even
high functioning do everysingle role in your hospital
right now?
Versus let's find the matchright, like to me, it's really
it's, it's, it's's.
(30:14):
Let's find not not just you asthe leader right, but also some
one of your other team memberswho is equally as passionate
about making a success storyhappen.
And it's just being thoughtfuland it's it to me, it's not just
jandel attempting to boil anocean.
It is absolutely like findingthe allies like that are on your
(30:35):
team and I promise you you haveallies on your team.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:38):
Oh, I know I do.
I've got a thousand of themyeah.
Mike Hess (30:40):
And it's impossible for you to know every.
I mean you know you've been inhealthcare your whole life
there's still, there's a,there's a whole lot of you know
functions and stuff that arehappening that you know.
You probably just you knowperipheral about what's going on
and I just I feel like there'slike you just start 1%, like
you're going to find a role thata blind person, a deaf person,
somebody with ASD, and here'sthe beauty about that.
(31:03):
So if you can find that onerole or that one department here
at Craig, you telling me thatwe can't take that same model to
Swedish, to Denver health, toKP, to children's hospital,
that's how you, as a leader,create systemic change.
It's through 1%.
Jandel Allen-Davis (31:23):
Yeah, you know we're seeing more, and it's
really been sometimes, I think.
Do I see it now because ofwhere I work, or is the world
changing?
And I think it's a bit of both,but for sure the world is
changing.
We're seeing people who arewheelchair users in advertising
(31:43):
and marketing.
There are clothing lines thatare moving in that direction.
We're seeing some changeshappening that way.
There are days, especiallygiven my journey as an
African-American woman, that thechange ain't happening fast
enough, but it is happening.
(32:04):
So I just love to sit back andlisten to you get a little
ministerial in dream.
What do you want this world ofemployment to look like 10 years
, 20 years from now?
And I'll get some tissues.
Mike Hess (32:13):
Yeah, you know, jandell like.
Jandel Allen-Davis (32:15):
Tell me what it looks like, what's not your,
not just your institution.
But just dream for a bit.
Mike Hess (32:23):
I tell people this you know so, like I'll never
have a bigot cop put his knee onmy neck ever Because I'm
Caucasian Like I'll never havethat, Jandell, but I've had the
fortune 10 000 put their knee onmy financial neck my entire
life, like I.
So the unemployment numberslike again, people can twist
(32:46):
numbers however they want, butyou see the numbers right, and I
stopped asking executives sohow many blind people, how many
deaf people do you have workingfor you?
It's a really uncomfortablesilence, right and so for me.
So I started BIT.
I'm like 10,000.
You got to have a goal.
You got to have a big, hairy,audacious goal.
Let's get 10,000 people withdisabilities gainfully employed.
(33:08):
Right, and think about that.
That's only one per fortune.
10,000.
That is such a low bar to hitand yet you look at the
statistics, that seems like ageneration away.
Like we, in 11 years we've beenable to get 300 plus people
placed.
I'm so thrilled in the stories,the lives that we've impacted,
(33:29):
cause I put my, my phone number,my email address is on my
website, like I make myselfridiculously available and in
the stories, and I do thisbecause that I work for them.
I work for that population thatis omitted like it's.
It's bad here in the UnitedStates, it is horrible
everywhere else and I work forthem and it's just like I don't
(33:50):
ever want to not be available tothis community, this amazing
community.
I don't have enough Jandels inmy back pocket to get these
amazing people working again.
Jandel Allen-Davis (34:01):
So we need more people to we need more
Jandels, so in 20 years.
Mike Hess (34:08):
What's it look like if you're successful, If I'm
successful, we've hit our 10,000in 20 years.
But we just quite honestly like, if I can get just one percent
of your time and introduce me toone other, I mean just think,
think of the power of that rightlike one ceo introducing me to
another ceo, to like, like, like.
Yes, we can get 10 000 peoplewith disabilities gainfully
employed in 20 years and we needway more than that we need way
(34:33):
more than that because that'snot going to even solve
no-transcript.
But all of a sudden you have abenchmark now, yeah, and you
have enough data to support likeah, okay, yeah, this is more of
a value add than a risk.
Jandel Allen-Davis (34:43):
Yeah, when you lay your head on the pillow
at night.
What makes you most proud aboutwhat you do and what you've
accomplished as a leader?
Mike Hess (34:53):
I've got so many emails of people who like, like,
they're, like, you know, you'vechanged my life.
Like it's it's, it's it's our,it's the people.
It's why you're the ceo of this, this amazing organization.
It's the people that we get totouch and they, they reach out
and you know, and, and to me I'ma facilitator, that's all I am
(35:15):
right.
Like I, I and you know, and tome I'm a facilitator, that's all
I am right.
Like I facilitate relationships.
You know this relationship withthat relationship, and these,
this talented, you know personwith this organization looking
like, so I just facilitate,that's all I do, right?
Like you know, some of theseideas, yeah, they're, they're
mine, but I didn't, you know,like I'm just, I'm a servant,
(35:53):
that's all I am.
And I think good leaders areservants.
That's you.
Jandel Allen-Davis (35:53):
You're here to serve and just be that
facilitator of makingtransactions happen at the end
of the day, and I'm super proudof that.
And yet I'm like I haven't doneenough.
The statistics show I haven'tdone enough.
Well, to whatever extent, theshifts that we're seeing in the
market and in the world around,and for whatever reason that
it's driven because sometimesit's by any means necessary if
we can get our workforces, ourworkplaces, strengthened through
the power of this level ofdiversity, then both of us can
(36:14):
put our head on the pillow atnight and go well done today.
Yeah, Well done today.
I appreciate your making time.
Mike Hess (36:20):
I so love hearing your voice.
I just love reconnecting withyou again, I'm honored to be
here.
Jandel Allen-Davis (36:26):
It's not these strangers.
Mike Hess (36:27):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jandel Allen-Davis (36:29):
Oh well, thank you.
Thank you.
All I can say about theinterview that we just did is
(36:49):
wow.
There was a moment where I gottearful.
As I said when Mike talkedabout, I, will never have a
bigoted cop with a knee on myneck, but I have plenty of folks
or organizations or a worldthat has a knee on my.
Financial potential, I'd say,let alone reality at a given
time, the idea of thinking aboutwhat is possible in workplaces,
that's win-win, I'd saywin-win-win for institutions,
(37:10):
communities and individuals.
If we widen the aperture andthink about not disability, but
actually differently abled andwhat is actually born, or what
arises, what emerges when onefinds oneself unable or to do
what they used to do or to dothings differently, or who were
(37:32):
born into less than fullycapable, is defined by the, in
some ways narrow ways.
We think about that as humanbeings.
We need more Mike Hesses.
We need more Mike Hessesbecause we are at a point we all
know, looking at the statistics, where we have no other choice
and thank God for that that wehave no other choice, because we
(37:54):
will now be, I hope, motivatedmore than forced to think about
widening our aperture around whois able to work within our
organizations, and whatbeautiful ways they will enrich
the tapestry of ourorganizations, enrich the
tapestry of our purpose, of ourmissions, through doing the
(38:16):
little bit and honestly, it isthe little bit that's required
to accommodate, in reasonableand appropriate fashions, those
who need extra help in order tohelp us all achieve the goals we
need to.
What does this all have to dowith leadership and culture,
which is what this podcast, atthe heart of it, is about.
(38:38):
As I listened to Mike andlistened to his story, there
were so many things that emerged.
First, his mother and how shesaw him How's that for a play on
words as a fully capable humanbeing who didn't realize what
blindness was until he was seven.
So what had that seven yearsbeen like for him?
(39:02):
In a way that he saw a placefor himself in the world, and he
had a mom, he had a championwho did that for him.
Where's our leadership courageto be the champions for so many
others, I say it takes courage.
It takes courage.
That's the leadership capacitythat I think Mike exemplifies
and those he works alongsideexemplify and, in turn, are not
just changing individual livesbut are changing organizational
(39:25):
cultures and, in turn, arechanging and transforming
communities.
So with that I want to thankyou again for joining us for
Unstoppable at Craig.
It's just know that I feel aspecial connection to those of
you who make the time to listenand I hope it shifts you just a
little bit, if not a big bit.
How's that for a play on words?
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