September 25, 2023 • 39 mins
Have you ever thought about the tremendous impact joy can have in your life? Wondered how you can harness your adversities, emerging stronger and even more successful? Join us as we take a deep dive into these fascinating topics with our guest, Ryan Heckman. From a humble background to an Olympic athlete, and now a successful business leader, Ryan's journey is nothing short of inspirational. He shares his unique insights from a 25-year long career in private equity and how he's used his experiences to shape the world positively.
We explore many different topics, including Ryan's worldview of leadership in private equity, his vision and creation of CiviCO, a foundation committed to leadership development across various sectors, and his stance on creating a safe space for dissent, a crucial element for organizational success. Prepare to be inspired and to gain a fresh perspective on life, success and happiness.
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Disclaimer: The content in this podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. No professional relationship is implied or otherwise established by reading this document. You should not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified healthcare provider. Craig Hospital is not affiliated with resources that may be referenced in this podcast. Craig Hospital assumes no liability for any third-party material or for any action or inaction taken as a result of any content or any suggestions made in this podcast and should not be relied upon without independent investigation. The information on this page is a public service provided by Craig Hospital and in no way represents a recommendation or endorsement by Craig Hospital. Any use of this content by a corporation or other revenue-seeking or -generating organization is prohibited unless first approved by Craig Hospital.
For more information, transcriptions and behind-the-scene photos, visit https://craighospital.org/unstoppable
Craig Hospital is a world-renowned rehabilitation hospital that exclusively specializes in neurorehabilitation and research for individuals with spinal cord injury (SCI) and brain injury (BI). Located in Englewood, Colorado, Craig Hospital is a 350,000-square-foot, 93-bed, private, not-for-profit center of excellence providing a comprehensive system of inpatient and outpatient neurorehabilitation. https://craighospital.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jandel Allen-Davis (00:06):
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we
pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace cultures
click and what happens whenpeople are empowered to expand
the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
(00:27):
I'm Dr.
Jande l Allen- Davis, CEO andPresident of Craig Hospital, a
world-renowned rehabilitationhospital that exclusively
specializes in theneuro-rehabilitation and
research of patients with spinalcord and brain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation.
(00:47):
I could not be more excited tobe here, getting to do this
particular conversation with mydear, dear friend, Ryan Heckman,
who I met in one of the mostunusual of ways when Governor
(01:08):
Hickenlooper was our governorand the two of us were exploring
what public service would belike In different ways.
I think we both figured out wecould do a lot more from the
private sector, but we'll getinto that, Ryan, welcome.
Thanks for making time.
Ryan Heckman (01:22):
I am excited to be here, thanks.
Jandel Allen-Davis (01:24):
It's been really great because you have
had a really I'd say this maysound big but storied career but
also such a dynamic and uniquebut in some ways that's what
makes it storied and cool sortof path over time.
I just love it.
Just to sort of contextualizethis great conversation we're
going to have.
Ryan Heckman (01:43):
If you just tell the story of Ryan Heckman,
whichever chapters you want- Igrew up in a really small town
in Granby, colorado, which wassmall, and probably small then
in 1982 and even smallerprobably today.
I just always felt this desireto get out and do something.
I felt claustrophobic, I guessyou could say on reflection, my
(02:06):
only path out of there wasthrough athletics, and skiing in
particular.
I just wanted so badly to go tothe Olympics.
It was just something that wasinside of me and I can't explain
why, but part of it was to getout of Granby.
No offense, I progressedquickly and I was the youngest
Olympian that represented notjust my sport but the whole
(02:27):
United States Olympic team.
I was 16 in Albertville, france,and competed there, and I
competed again in 94 inLilihammer, norway.
Then I wanted to go to college.
The next Olympics were in 98,so it was a long time to wait
for a third Olympic Games.
I was really feeling kind ofdumb.
(02:49):
I didn't go to high school and,funny enough, when I decided to
go to college I was like what'sthe best college in the United
States?
Someone said Stanford is.
I sent my application in aStanford University.
I was 22, probably no, I was 21.
I had no GED, no ACT, no SATand really no GPA.
(03:13):
I went to a ski academy andkind of got the pass, if you
will passing grade.
I got like a no letter fromStanford.
That wasn't very long.
It didn't even say we're goingto keep your application on file
.
It was almost like a cease anddesist order, like don't ever
come to.
California.
I was pretty upset.
(03:36):
Now I look back, I was justnaive, right, but A for effort.
And then I applied to my backupschool, which was the
University of Colorado, and Igot denied.
There I was like, oh my gosh, Iam not going to be able to go
to college, and what am I goingto do?
Never mind, I couldn't affordit.
The librarian from my hometownwent behind my back and went to
(04:00):
the director of admissions at CUand he put me on probation.
But let me in to CU.
Not only did she call, but sheand her husband paid for my
entire college, which is prettyamazing.
I get teary eyed when I thinkabout that I did go to CU and
worked my tail off, and then Iwrote on an airplane with a
(04:23):
fellow who owned Vale Resorts atthe time, a guy named George
Gillette you might have heard ofhim.
He owned a number of assets allover the country and we wrote on
an airplane when I was 16 toZurich.
We talked the whole flight andhe said when you graduate from
college, or if you graduate fromcollege, give me a call, I'll
give you a job.
Little did I know that I wasapplying for a job in private
(04:45):
equity, which recruits not onlyfrom the Ivy League but from the
Ivy League MBA programs.
I had an undergraduate degreefrom the University of Colorado
and he gave me a job.
As he said he would.
I have now been investing inbuilding companies.
Now I'm celebrating my 25thyear.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:05):
Wow, there's so many threads in that.
I hear striving and longing inthe I'm going to go to the
Olympics in darn.
If you didn't do it, you knowwe say I call them Godwinks,
others call it luck, otherswould call it even privilege in
some different ways.
But just right place, righttime, right people who saw in
(05:25):
you what you might not have evenbeen able to see in yourself,
which brought about thisremarkable journey that brings
you to today.
Ryan Heckman (05:32):
I think the sense of privilege is probably more
about all the people that helpedme along the way, you know
versus the actual outcomes.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:40):
You know that, john Kennedy, to those who
much has been given, much isexpected.
Talk about along the way alittle bit.
I mean you sort of glossed overthe this idea in PE or private
equity, the opportunities tobuild lots of companies and
hopefully create some greatdreams for people and, you know,
make the world a better place.
But I know there's lots ofother cool ways you've made the
(06:01):
world a better place too thatare real important, I think, for
those listening who are leaders, to understand that whole.
How are you playing in thespace of much is expected of you
?
Ryan Heckman (06:11):
That's actually a pretty easy question to answer.
I would start with I mentionedthat the librarian paid for my
college and Colorado MountainCollege in Steamboat, where I
competed and where Jane and EdHill lived who paid?
For my college.
They had run out of money andthey were building an auditorium
to serve the community and thestudents that went to school.
(06:35):
So I paid to build theauditorium in their name and
that felt divine.
Jandel Allen-Davis (06:45):
Well, I can see on your face it still feels
divine.
Ryan Heckman (06:49):
It felt great and that kind of, you know, like
anything.
You kind of get that appetizer,that spark, that kind of rush
of oh, that feels good, you know.
And I had not experienced thatyet.
And so the next thing I did wasI gave enough money to send 50
(07:11):
students through communitycollege, and it so happens that
most of the community collegesin the state are located in
places like Gramby you knowwhether you're talking places
like Sterling, colorado, orRangeley, colorado.
And then I was thinking about,like what else could I do?
And so I started a leadershipdevelopment foundation called
(07:32):
Civico.
It provides leadership andtraining and development to the
for-profit, the non-for-profitand public service employees and
leaders, and we do that workall over the state and it's
really meant to help people movefrom career aspirations to
(07:54):
becoming a community leader,like you, jendell, and George
Sparks and many of the folksthat you have on this podcast.
And so that work has reallyconsumed me over the last 10
years and has been maybe evenbetter than those first two
examples I gave, because it'smore, I guess it has more legs
(08:14):
to it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:15):
It's not like a one and done kind of
thing.
Ryan Heckman (08:18):
Yeah, exactly, exactly so that work has been
great and I say that it's givenme a lot more than I've given it
.
The work that I get to do inthe community has given me a
particular lens to say that wecan do private equity much
differently.
I can do it differently and Ican do it in service to others
as opposed to being a profiteer,if you will.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:39):
You know, I think you know, I serve on the
Federal Reserve Bank Board and Isaid the story in healthcare
today is mergers, acquisitions,divorces and PE.
And it's at least in Colorado,for sure we're in some.
I mean, you can get whiplashwatching the changes that are
happening in the market and thereality is we don't talk about
M&A as the evil, whatever, butthere's a good and a bad side to
(09:01):
that.
There's a good side to that timewhere you know it's time to
sort of separate, as we'reseeing in a couple of big
systems here in town, and I'dlove to have both sides of PE.
Ryan Heckman (09:11):
You know, to say private equity is bad is a
little bit like saying bankingis bad or getting a loan for
your house or a mortgage is bad.
It's just private equity is asource of capital.
At the end of the day it's anenabler, and if you don't have
enough debt or your own money,you got to get it from somebody.
So in essence, a private equityfund is like a lender or a bank
(09:33):
and you're going to them for aloan that's probably due in five
years and with that loan,because it's very risky the
private equity firm wants to sayand how the money is spent.
Now the problem with privateequity is oftentimes private
equity professionals have neverrun a business and so they want
to have say on things thatthey're not competent to opine
(09:55):
upon.
And that's where it probablygets a lot of the bad rap is
kind of this ivory tower.
You know backseat drivingprofiteer, and so you know it's
very easy, I think, to rip onthe industry.
But I actually don't think it'sthe function.
I think the function is what itis.
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:17):
We did a podcast some couple back maybe
on polarities, you know, and Isometimes find myself in the
midst of that and it's reallyhard as a physician to be in the
midst of that where you've gotthe tension between a business
to run and we don't like tothink about health care that way
.
But it is, and this amazing,wonderful thing we get to do and
(10:37):
it is the sacred trust oftaking care of people who need
us in a way that nobody wakes upin the morning saying I think I
want to be a patient and I'vesaid I don't have, in this role,
the luxury of saying one's moreimportant than the other.
We've got to balance that.
The care experience, thequality, got to look at all the
things that are going onexternally.
We should not be ashamed orembarrassed about profits.
(11:00):
We should be able to say it.
Or, in the case of nonprofits,we talk about margins, although
it's still profits.
It's just what happens withthem.
And is there the opportunity toraise all boats, including what
shareholder value looks like,if we think differently around
the products we sell, the peoplewho help us deliver those
products and the people who areupstream, providing all the
(11:24):
things we need to deliver theproduct, so I know it's doable.
I get to see it every day inthis place called Craig Hospital
in some ways that I never wouldhave dreamed possible.
So, yeah, I think that you'rehitting on something really big.
And talking about the sittingat the table, I suspect fighting
, not in any conflict as part ofhow you balance those two polls
(11:50):
, but I'd say healthy conflictbased on values and principles.
Talk about yours.
Ryan Heckman (11:56):
Yeah, I wonder.
I think a lot of careers, sadly, have been maybe ruined or
people have maybe been eventerminated from their
organizations for what they say,but a lot of more organizations
, I think, have been ruinedbecause of what people don't say
.
Yes, right, there's this weirdthing where it takes a lot of
(12:20):
courage to be disagreeable as anindividual and if you're in an
organization that doesn'tincentivize that, then the
organization gets the detrimentover time.
I mean, some of the worstorganizations I've seen because
that's what I do for a living isbuy great organizations and for
(12:42):
every one I buy there'sprobably 20 that we don't.
Well, those other 19, I wouldsay one of the common traits of
a bad organization is all thethings that aren't said in a
meeting and all the things thatare said outside of the meeting,
that's, the meetings outside ofthe meeting.
As leaders, I think creatingthat safe environment, as you
(13:02):
said, to encourage dissent, iskind of one of those secret
sauces that's right under ournose but, like a lot of things,
is easier to say but harder todo.
You know, I mean there's a lotof social pressure on employees
and leadership teams to be liked.
I mean I think it's safe to saythat one of our incentives when
(13:25):
we come to work is to get paidfor the work we do and we like
to be respected and appreciatedand sometimes if you're
disagreeable you lose theopportunity to be liked and I
don't think any of us like tofeel that way.
So you know, I always look upto leaders who kind of come at
discussions like we'redescribing, with this great
(13:47):
sense of curiosity and respectfor the dissenters view and
actually like reward people forthose dissents.
Now it doesn't mean you have toagree with them.
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:56):
Right.
You know, when people do that,team members here do that, I
thank them and they know my dooris open.
They can say anything to me and, in fact, someone reminded me
of something that we hadn't doneand it's work that we have to
do.
So there's a scramble at theend of the week to get something
out and to get a thank you backfrom the team members saying
(14:18):
it's just so nice to be able toraise issues with leadership and
have them, you know, answeredand to be not just responded to
okay, okay, but to do somethingabout it, and I think you
actually end up my belief is youend up creating more engagement
and more people who are goingto actually keep your butt out
of trouble, if you want to knowthe truth, because there's
(14:38):
somebody somewhere.
We learned this in patientsafety work some years ago for
Kaiser Permanente, and I mean tothink that airplanes literally
have fallen out of the skybecause people were afraid to
say you're running out of gas.
I mean, and those are thestories from you know, sort of
the, the airline industry, ofall that, as they really started
viewing themselves as an ultrasafe industry, the big things
(15:01):
they had to do weren't thetechnology.
It was really the stuff.
It was this ability to speakyour truth to anybody to stop
the line.
There's this.
His name was professor root.
I saw that on the slide.
When armed with the sameinformation, we're likely to
come to the same conclusions ohyeah, that's a good one and so
and I love that his name wasroot- get to the root cause.
(15:21):
And there you go.
So just really a beautiful wayof putting it.
Ryan Heckman (15:25):
Jendale, who I find, when I have a dissenting
view, there's a certain amountof courage that someone has to
have to give the dissenting view.
But then there's the other side, which is, as a leader, I feel
uncomfortable or, I guess, likefearful I'm going to discourage
them if I don't agree or I don'tmove forward with the path that
(15:48):
they've recommended.
That might be in contrast tothe one that that I think is
right.
What is your inner voice whenyou, when you know someone is
pounding the table on somethingyou just know isn't right, but
you want to encourage thiswillingness to engage in a
healthy dialogue, but you knowyou're going to say no.
(16:09):
How do you get the courage tosay it in a way, and do you ever
feel like you hurt someone'sfeelings when you don't take
their input?
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:18):
well I I frequently feel like I hurt
their feelings, but I think oneof the things that you mentioned
that's important is that youask lots of questions, you stay
in a space of curiosity.
Don't let yourself get hijackedby the emotion that they're
bringing, because then that itactually is a distraction as
opposed to something that's veryhelpful.
I also think that there aregreat ideas that come along, or
(16:41):
great suggestions, or great, inthis case, motions or ways of
directions that you should takea place that really are about
timing and framing.
I'm going to give you somefeedback in a positive way.
You also, despite how much itsucks to have to be that no, we
are not going that way.
You model leadership, courage,because there's sometimes that
(17:03):
we're the only ones who can makethe decision right and after a
ton of input, sometimes we haveto say this isn't a direction
we're going and it's no fun,because we do worry about being
liked and we do worry about Imean the other one is we were
about is what if we're wrong?
And it couldn't happen thatyou're wrong but son comes up?
Ryan Heckman (17:19):
tomorrow.
I do want to touch on atechnique that I saw one of our
CEOs at a really cool companycalled pics health, based out of
Tucson.
Her name is Cindy Jordan andshe's a thought leader in the
field of loneliness and socialisolation, and she has a, an app
that gets delivered to patientpopulations all over the country
(17:41):
on behalf of payers.
She actually created a culturecommittee where she identified
there were probably seven oreight of them that were super
important and weren'tnecessarily at the high end of
the org chart and, as it as ithappened, there were a couple at
the high end of the org chartand a couple is a low end and a
whole bunch of people in themiddle, and what she uses them
(18:04):
to do is that when she has a bigdecision to make, she gets
their input and they talk aboutit, and then she takes that
input into consideration.
She asks them questions like ifwe're going to do this, how
would it be best received in theorganization you know, and so
it gives her, like this, verydeliberate sounding board, and
(18:27):
then a side benefit is a salesforce, if you will, for change.
Yes, and the reality is thatyou need a sales force within
your organization at all levelsto to champion and not change
and what she's done through thisculture club is created a sales
force for her to get a bunch ofstuff done that may or may not
have been as popular withoutthat sales force you know it's
(18:49):
beautiful, but that is a fewthings.
Jandel Allen-Davis (18:51):
One you talk about influence.
Which leadership?
I say leadership is basicallythis idea of using influence to
get stuff done.
So beautiful example of usinginfluence and using those
informal networks.
Talk about strategic, as I'llget out.
You talk about lifting othersup, which I think is one of the
(19:12):
other really important things wedo the skills that she is
growing and those people whodon't have titles that'll either
serve that organization orthey'll go on to serve others
just through, first of all.
I mean when you think aboutGillette saying call me when
you're through college, or theangels, when I think about that
have been in my life along theway.
(19:33):
They see in us things we can'tsee in ourselves.
When the call comes to do x, y,z.
I remember when jack cokron,who's the executive medical
director no, he wasn't at thetime, his plastic surgeon was on
the board of the med groupcalled me and he knew who I was
I'm just ob g y n doing what Ido, which was working super hard
, and said you need to run forthe board of the Permanente
(19:56):
medical group.
It's like I knew his name.
I knew you know my little.
He's like very important and,uh, he said me, and not only did
I run with that sort of littletiny thing, go for it, but
ultimately chaired the board ofthe medical group for a time,
and then all these other sortsof opportunities come along.
So there's also that.
(20:16):
And out of all of the thingsshe gave, more than she got.
Yeah, she got her message out.
You get the.
You know that.
You use your informal networks,but what she gave those people
around that sense of I matter, Iam significant, my
contributions mean something andI'm going to say much better
things about this organizationoutside of this room because of
(20:39):
the opportunities given.
That's just that's leadershipin my view.
That's real leadership and Ilove to do that here.
I do.
I actually like dissenters, Idon't like cynics and I remember
the phrase you know encouragedissension but challenge
cynicism.
You really should and you canand you can see it.
You know the difference.
But I say bring it, I getbetter because of it.
(21:01):
And it takes the ability to tocall yourself.
If you dumb, you know what, ifyou miss the thing, if someone
tells you or you know at 2 30 inthe morning, say thank God.
People know that I cannotpossibly see, know, hear or do
everything.
And then we have to rememberthat we can't see, know, do or
hear everything, and that we itis a massive village that allows
(21:24):
us to build great organizations.
Ryan Heckman (21:27):
Well, and behind every one vocal cynic, there's
probably at least 10 to 20 thatjust don't have the courage or
the guts to say it.
Yeah, and so you know.
It's sort of like the canary inthe mine.
Jandel Allen-Davis (21:40):
You know, I could be the Dan Ritchie of
healthcare.
Just keep working, and working,and working, even though my
husband would prefer I didn't,because I love work.
It fills me up in ways that areequal to the things and the
passions I pursue outside ofwork, and I feel like even on
the toughest days, where I amunhappy, there's still so many
(22:02):
moments of joy.
So how do you think about this,this idea of what seems like?
How can you be joyful andunhappy?
How do you think through thosetwo things?
Ryan Heckman (22:14):
Well, there's a great book right now out there
by David Brooks, called theSecond Mountain.
Jandel Allen-Davis (22:19):
Oh yes, have you read that one?
Yes, yes, I love David Brooks.
David Brooks is awesome.
Ryan Heckman (22:23):
He's got a real way with words.
He has a whole chapter devotedto the word joyful, and his
basic thesis is that happinessis a reaction to something
that's you know good, and thatwe strive to get as many good
things as we can so that we'reotherwise happy.
And it's a rather diminishingway of looking at the world,
(22:46):
because you're waiting, you'rehoping good stuff happens to you
when you wake up in the morning.
Joy, on the other hand, is astate of mind, it's a state of
being, it's in your control.
Most importantly, when you wakeup in the morning, it's like am
I gonna be full of joy todayand am I gonna share that with
other people?
I think it might be like themost.
(23:09):
If I had to pick onecharacteristic that has the
biggest return on investment oreffort, I would say it's
choosing to be joyful when youwake up in the morning.
It just so happens that spousesotherwise prefer to be with a
joyful spouse.
It so happens that employeeslike to be in a joyful
(23:31):
organization.
It so happens that people wannado business with joyful people.
When you're recruiting, it'simportant and at the end of the
day, the joy you give ends upbeing the joy you receive from
other people and if you give ityou'll get it in return and
(23:53):
David Brooks does a wonderfuljob of talking about the state
of mind part of this and that wecan all choose to be joyful,
but we don't get to choose goodthings to happen to us so that
we're happy.
And so when I think about ajoyful organization, I was
taught that there's three thingsthat most employees want from
(24:14):
their organizations that producea joyful one, and one is real
relationships, connection, andnot over football necessarily,
although that's fun to talkabout.
What connection means in thiscontext is knowing that what
matters to Jen Dell matters toRyan and that you know that Jen
(24:35):
Dell, like what matters to you,matters to me and vice versa.
When I know that what mattersto me matters to you, that is
the ultimate form of arelationship and a connection,
and that's the organizationallevel as well as the
interpersonal level, so that wecould call disconnection or
relationships.
The second one is helpingeveryone in the organization
(24:58):
feel like they had an impact.
You know, when they go home atnight and they're driving home,
they can think of one thing thatthey did that left an imprint
on the day, whatever that may be, and that they're seen for it,
that they're recognized for thatimpact.
I think that's a big one.
And the third one is, you know,personal development.
(25:20):
Does the organization you knowgive chances to me to grow?
In other words, am I a betterversion of myself every year
that I'm at Craig Hospital?
Now you get to cheat a littlebit on this one, jen Dell
because, your patients and I'msure they're caregivers love on
your team a lot, but that'sunique.
(25:42):
Well, I should also add thetough part of that is it's long
hours and tough duty what youremployees do, but they get a lot
of emotional juice out of it.
It's not so in other industries, and so finding ways to give
employees a chance to becomebetter versions of themselves
when they're at yourorganization, If you can hit all
(26:04):
three of these thingsconnection and real
relationships, helping peoplefeel like and be recognized for
the impact that they have everyday at all levels of your work
chart.
Jandel Allen-Davis (26:13):
And then the third one Opportunity for
growth.
Ryan Heckman (26:15):
Growth.
And if you hit those threethings, very likely you're gonna
have less turnover and perhapsmore competency year in and year
out with your workforce.
Jandel Allen-Davis (26:27):
The other thing I you probably don't know,
but on this whole idea ofimpact, relationship and
connection, the opportunity forgrowth, we actually looked at
that kind of data at KP becausewe had from our employees.
We also had because we care forright.
I mean, it's a healthcaresystem.
So we knew not to by name oranything but new healthcare
(26:48):
utilization and we also didhealth and wellbeing.
We did this in the environmentof I can't remember the name of
the survey, but it was reallylooking at those a number of
dimensions of wellbeing and theplaces that had a higher sense
of wellbeing also had higheremployee engagement in that and,
interestingly, lower healthcareutilization.
Ryan Heckman (27:09):
Wow.
Jandel Allen-Davis (27:10):
So we have way more.
Those are those unseen waysthat toxic workplaces literally
eat at our physiology, eat atour health, eat out our sense of
well-being.
So it all does tie together andit's.
I mean.
I think people can think ofthis word joy through mushy
(27:32):
lenses, but I don't think of itway.
I walk around this hospital andI see joy.
I don't always see happiness.
Nobody wakes up in the morningand says I think I want to go to
Craig.
Ryan Heckman (27:42):
Nobody.
I'm touching on a big momenthere in this conversation to me,
because there may be a theremay not be a more profound
laboratory for testing whetheryou can be joyful and unhappy at
the same time than at CraigHospital.
Jandel Allen-Davis (28:03):
All right, it is a huge amen to that.
And here's the thing, though,that I've taken it as I've
thought about this, because I dosee gratitude.
I mean, you sort of think, well, what does joy look like in
action?
There's a sense of gratitude,there's a sense of optimism, a
sense where I can bring my wholeself into work, a sense where
(28:23):
I'm seen and can see you, asense that, at the end of the
day, I can check a few boxesmost days about what I actually
might have accomplished in thisimpact space, and that there was
the opportunity to stop and say, yeah, how's that going with
that?
Like, I know you well enough toknow those little facts about
people that allow them gosh,they know that it's like, yeah,
(28:46):
and I don't know it in amanipulative way.
I know it because I'm deeplyinterested and care about the
people I care about.
Well, the same thing happenswith their patients.
I mean, books come here aftersome catastrophic, horrible
accidents, with some of thestories that were just what
sense does this make?
And yet that's what I get tosee that resilience, the sense
(29:07):
of hope on steroids and peopleable to say I can move this.
Today, I was able to get thesewords out.
Today, I am coming to termswith what are going to be
limitations and how to overcomethem.
I mean, we give people hope, so, but here's the thing I said
well, why can't?
How would you bottle that andgive that to an acute care
(29:29):
hospital, an emergency roomphysician, nurse, folks working
in ORs, folks working on medicalsurgical floors?
What, effectively, we're allhere to do is to relieve
suffering.
We're just relieving sufferingand that appendectomy don't
compare an appendectomy to aspinal cord injury, Don't.
In both cases, what iscomparable is the fact that
we're here to relieve sufferingand there's great joy in being
(29:52):
able to say I relieve suffering.
There's great joy and Idelivered a baby today.
There's really great joy inthat.
There's great joy in standingin an infusion center and
treating cancer chemotherapy.
There's great joy when thosepatients, when they finish those
rounds of therapy which hasbecome a thing now in these
infusion centers, where there'sa big sort of dancing off into
(30:14):
the moonlight or sunset orsunrise as that last treatment,
and if we can, as healthcarepeople, get back to that why
Because that is the why of thiswork, at least for me Then it's
a good day.
They may not all be happy, theywill be filled with conflict.
From time to time they will befilled with trying to figure out
how you balance these poles,these tensions.
(30:37):
It's just about remembering whowe serve.
Ryan Heckman (30:40):
Wow, thanks for your joyful leadership.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:43):
Oh, that was a very joyful moment.
I just that, without lunch.
I'd say, yeah, well, I think wemight be sort of getting down
to the end of our time together.
And, as you think about it, ifthere's just one thing that
you've learned through all ofyour experiences, what would it
be?
Ryan Heckman (31:03):
I'll answer it in two different ways.
One is the difference between acareer and a vocation, and the
way you show up every day.
When you have committedyourself to a vocation, I think,
means that you're notnecessarily trying to climb the
ladder.
You're in service to others andyou're trying to add value and
(31:28):
be significant to other people.
I think that's a big choice weall have to make when we show up
at work.
I think it also says somethingabout where you are in your
learning journey.
I mean, one of the things I'mmost proud about is that I'm
learning at a much faster pacenow than when I started my
(31:49):
career 25 years ago, and that's,I think, a byproduct of my
dedication to the craft.
What I do and why I do it, andwho I do it for these are really
important questions.
I wasn't always that way.
I probably had my awakening, ifyou will, through some big
(32:11):
failures, oftentimes Over time.
Those failures helped merealize that there is a better
way to live than just trying toclimb the ladder every day.
That would be one thing.
The second one is just thatchoice.
We already talked about that.
The one thing you can controlevery day is whether you're
(32:33):
going to show up joyful or notand shine that joy on other
people.
I think that you can't controlthe outcomes, but by God you can
.
You literally can control beingjoyful or not.
It's like a choice, and thelast one would just be the
disappointments in life.
If you've ever read the bookthe Prophet, there's a chapter
(32:53):
on holding joy and sorrow inboth hands every day and
realizing that life is reallysloppy and yucky at times and
not getting too bummed out whenit's not going well, but also
not getting too full of yourselfwhen things are good.
Like it's holding both joy andsorrow in equal weight in both
(33:15):
hands on a day to day, a monthto month, year to year basis,
and just realizing that part ofthe human condition, part of
being a human, is having a wholebunch of bad stuff happen to
you.
I would dare say that when Ilook at the most successful
people, it's not how they gottheir success or their wins,
it's how did they respond to theadversity?
(33:38):
How do you do better in thisworld?
I don't think it's by winningbetter.
I think it's by losing better,Somehow figuring out how to
respond to bad things happeningto you and the adversity.
If you can get really good atthat.
I think that might be part ofthe ultimate way of doing well
(34:00):
in this world.
I really believe that.
Jandel Allen-Davis (34:02):
Well, what an incredible full circle.
Back to what I witnessed in thehospital.
In one phrase which I've heardis that I would not want to go
back to who I was before I wasinjured, because there's lots of
ways to respond to theseinjuries.
What we have the capacity tofigure out about ourselves in
facing adversity is prettytransformational, or has the
(34:25):
ability to do that, and not justto transform your life.
But others.
I was sitting here talking thatlast little bit and thinking you
know what a gift it is to haveso many amazing people in my
life, that you know you go backto any one of the dark periods,
and there were plenty growing upin my life that I never would
have thought that I'd have theopportunity to meet so many
(34:47):
great people and do suchwonderful work in service to
others.
That's why I work as hard as Ido, because it's a gift and
you're a poor husband.
Ryan Heckman (34:57):
You are going to Dan Richie him.
I'm going to Dan Richie thepoor guy.
I'm sure he knew that when yougot married.
Jandel Allen-Davis (35:02):
I'll make sure he listens to this
unstoppable episode becausehe'll hear at the end dude, I
kind of like to work, I kind oflike the work it's, I like to
garden, I like to do the art, Ilike to do all the other
wonderful things I do outside ofthis place, but I love service
and the chance to meet andconnect with people doing great
things, which you are doing.
So keep surprising us.
(35:23):
You're a model to so many.
Who, again, who, much has beengiven and just to remind them,
much is expected.
So, thank you.
Ryan Heckman (35:33):
My pleasure and it's been a wonderful, wonderful
opportunity.
Jandel Allen-Davis (35:40):
In reflecting on this time together
, I'm once again struck by howmany absolutely incredible
leaders we are blessed to havein Colorado doing work, big and
small.
But if there's a theme thatruns throughout the work is this
it's this idea of having theopportunity to give back and to
(36:03):
do your best and to dream bigand actually to dream bigger
than in ways that you didn'teven think possible.
You know, starting thisconversation with Ryan Hickman,
my dear friend, who comes frompretty humble beginnings and has
managed to not just thread aneedle but to do great work and
(36:24):
also still view hisaccountability and
responsibility and desire togive back, whether it's repaying
in a really amazing way, payingit forward the folks who
provide a college education forhim, or giving college tuition
for 50 kids to be able to finishcommunity college, and this out
(36:46):
of financial benefits that hereceived that could easily have
been in his pocket and stayed inhis pocket that he chose to do
these really big ideas, big waysof giving back, is really
remarkable.
So starting there and thenbeing able to say that the
things that employees, our teammembers, want more than anything
(37:06):
else is the ability to knowthat they are having an impact,
that the fact that they came towork, that they showed up, made
a difference, and ouraccountability and
responsibility to make sure thatthey know that that they had an
opportunity to grow and developand stretch and be their best
selves.
Ryan's story also beautifullyarticulates how you can, in
(37:32):
service to doing a work, whichis in the case of private equity
.
Providing a funding stream canturn that around, and it doesn't
have to be a negative that.
It really is about how youchoose to show up and how you
choose to engage in the work.
I so appreciated his courage andbeing able to call out the
parts of his chosen professionthat aren't going well or that
(37:55):
are the ugly parts of it.
And we have those in healthcareand we have those in banking
and we have those inconstruction.
We have those everywhere.
And in the end, what he saidwhich I think is just amazingly
important and there was aclarity about that that we all
can embody as this notion ofchoosing.
(38:16):
You can choose to do good orchoose to be bad or not do good.
You can choose to put youremployees and those you serve
first, or you can choose anotherway, but probably the most
important thing I heard today isthat you can choose joy, and if
there's anything I think I'velearned over this long, long
career and hope to continue fora lot more years is that I
(38:38):
always choose joy, and thatmotivates me and carries me
through tough days and has mesoaring through the good ones
and there's far more of thosethan there are the tough days
and that's in no small partbecause I have chosen to live a
certain way, and I hope you, asleaders, to feel the
encouragement that you can do ittoo.
(38:59):
So I want to thank you onceagain for spending some time
with us on the Unstoppable atCraig podcast.
This is Janelle Allen Davis,and until next time, be well and
choose joy.
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where we
pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace cultures
click and what happens whenpeople are empowered to expand
the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
(00:27):
I'm Dr.
Jande l Allen- Davis, CEO andPresident of Craig Hospital, a
world-renowned rehabilitationhospital that exclusively
specializes in theneuro-rehabilitation and
research of patients with spinalcord and brain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation.
(00:47):
I could not be more excited tobe here, getting to do this
particular conversation with mydear, dear friend, Ryan Heckman,
who I met in one of the mostunusual of ways when Governor
(01:08):
Hickenlooper was our governorand the two of us were exploring
what public service would belike In different ways.
I think we both figured out wecould do a lot more from the
private sector, but we'll getinto that, Ryan, welcome.
Thanks for making time.
Ryan Heckman (01:22):
I am excited to be here, thanks.
Jandel Allen-Davis (01:24):
It's been really great because you have
had a really I'd say this maysound big but storied career but
also such a dynamic and uniquebut in some ways that's what
makes it storied and cool sortof path over time.
I just love it.
Just to sort of contextualizethis great conversation we're
going to have.
Ryan Heckman (01:43):
If you just tell the story of Ryan Heckman,
whichever chapters you want- Igrew up in a really small town
in Granby, colorado, which wassmall, and probably small then
in 1982 and even smallerprobably today.
I just always felt this desireto get out and do something.
I felt claustrophobic, I guessyou could say on reflection, my
(02:06):
only path out of there wasthrough athletics, and skiing in
particular.
I just wanted so badly to go tothe Olympics.
It was just something that wasinside of me and I can't explain
why, but part of it was to getout of Granby.
No offense, I progressedquickly and I was the youngest
Olympian that represented notjust my sport but the whole
(02:27):
United States Olympic team.
I was 16 in Albertville, france,and competed there, and I
competed again in 94 inLilihammer, norway.
Then I wanted to go to college.
The next Olympics were in 98,so it was a long time to wait
for a third Olympic Games.
I was really feeling kind ofdumb.
(02:49):
I didn't go to high school and,funny enough, when I decided to
go to college I was like what'sthe best college in the United
States?
Someone said Stanford is.
I sent my application in aStanford University.
I was 22, probably no, I was 21.
I had no GED, no ACT, no SATand really no GPA.
(03:13):
I went to a ski academy andkind of got the pass, if you
will passing grade.
I got like a no letter fromStanford.
That wasn't very long.
It didn't even say we're goingto keep your application on file
.
It was almost like a cease anddesist order, like don't ever
come to.
California.
I was pretty upset.
(03:36):
Now I look back, I was justnaive, right, but A for effort.
And then I applied to my backupschool, which was the
University of Colorado, and Igot denied.
There I was like, oh my gosh, Iam not going to be able to go
to college, and what am I goingto do?
Never mind, I couldn't affordit.
The librarian from my hometownwent behind my back and went to
(04:00):
the director of admissions at CUand he put me on probation.
But let me in to CU.
Not only did she call, but sheand her husband paid for my
entire college, which is prettyamazing.
I get teary eyed when I thinkabout that I did go to CU and
worked my tail off, and then Iwrote on an airplane with a
(04:23):
fellow who owned Vale Resorts atthe time, a guy named George
Gillette you might have heard ofhim.
He owned a number of assets allover the country and we wrote on
an airplane when I was 16 toZurich.
We talked the whole flight andhe said when you graduate from
college, or if you graduate fromcollege, give me a call, I'll
give you a job.
Little did I know that I wasapplying for a job in private
(04:45):
equity, which recruits not onlyfrom the Ivy League but from the
Ivy League MBA programs.
I had an undergraduate degreefrom the University of Colorado
and he gave me a job.
As he said he would.
I have now been investing inbuilding companies.
Now I'm celebrating my 25thyear.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:05):
Wow, there's so many threads in that.
I hear striving and longing inthe I'm going to go to the
Olympics in darn.
If you didn't do it, you knowwe say I call them Godwinks,
others call it luck, otherswould call it even privilege in
some different ways.
But just right place, righttime, right people who saw in
(05:25):
you what you might not have evenbeen able to see in yourself,
which brought about thisremarkable journey that brings
you to today.
Ryan Heckman (05:32):
I think the sense of privilege is probably more
about all the people that helpedme along the way, you know
versus the actual outcomes.
Jandel Allen-Davis (05:40):
You know that, john Kennedy, to those who
much has been given, much isexpected.
Talk about along the way alittle bit.
I mean you sort of glossed overthe this idea in PE or private
equity, the opportunities tobuild lots of companies and
hopefully create some greatdreams for people and, you know,
make the world a better place.
But I know there's lots ofother cool ways you've made the
(06:01):
world a better place too thatare real important, I think, for
those listening who are leaders, to understand that whole.
How are you playing in thespace of much is expected of you
?
Ryan Heckman (06:11):
That's actually a pretty easy question to answer.
I would start with I mentionedthat the librarian paid for my
college and Colorado MountainCollege in Steamboat, where I
competed and where Jane and EdHill lived who paid?
For my college.
They had run out of money andthey were building an auditorium
to serve the community and thestudents that went to school.
(06:35):
So I paid to build theauditorium in their name and
that felt divine.
Jandel Allen-Davis (06:45):
Well, I can see on your face it still feels
divine.
Ryan Heckman (06:49):
It felt great and that kind of, you know, like
anything.
You kind of get that appetizer,that spark, that kind of rush
of oh, that feels good, you know.
And I had not experienced thatyet.
And so the next thing I did wasI gave enough money to send 50
(07:11):
students through communitycollege, and it so happens that
most of the community collegesin the state are located in
places like Gramby you knowwhether you're talking places
like Sterling, colorado, orRangeley, colorado.
And then I was thinking about,like what else could I do?
And so I started a leadershipdevelopment foundation called
(07:32):
Civico.
It provides leadership andtraining and development to the
for-profit, the non-for-profitand public service employees and
leaders, and we do that workall over the state and it's
really meant to help people movefrom career aspirations to
(07:54):
becoming a community leader,like you, jendell, and George
Sparks and many of the folksthat you have on this podcast.
And so that work has reallyconsumed me over the last 10
years and has been maybe evenbetter than those first two
examples I gave, because it'smore, I guess it has more legs
(08:14):
to it.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:15):
It's not like a one and done kind of
thing.
Ryan Heckman (08:18):
Yeah, exactly, exactly so that work has been
great and I say that it's givenme a lot more than I've given it
.
The work that I get to do inthe community has given me a
particular lens to say that wecan do private equity much
differently.
I can do it differently and Ican do it in service to others
as opposed to being a profiteer,if you will.
Jandel Allen-Davis (08:39):
You know, I think you know, I serve on the
Federal Reserve Bank Board and Isaid the story in healthcare
today is mergers, acquisitions,divorces and PE.
And it's at least in Colorado,for sure we're in some.
I mean, you can get whiplashwatching the changes that are
happening in the market and thereality is we don't talk about
M&A as the evil, whatever, butthere's a good and a bad side to
(09:01):
that.
There's a good side to that timewhere you know it's time to
sort of separate, as we'reseeing in a couple of big
systems here in town, and I'dlove to have both sides of PE.
Ryan Heckman (09:11):
You know, to say private equity is bad is a
little bit like saying bankingis bad or getting a loan for
your house or a mortgage is bad.
It's just private equity is asource of capital.
At the end of the day it's anenabler, and if you don't have
enough debt or your own money,you got to get it from somebody.
So in essence, a private equityfund is like a lender or a bank
(09:33):
and you're going to them for aloan that's probably due in five
years and with that loan,because it's very risky the
private equity firm wants to sayand how the money is spent.
Now the problem with privateequity is oftentimes private
equity professionals have neverrun a business and so they want
to have say on things thatthey're not competent to opine
(09:55):
upon.
And that's where it probablygets a lot of the bad rap is
kind of this ivory tower.
You know backseat drivingprofiteer, and so you know it's
very easy, I think, to rip onthe industry.
But I actually don't think it'sthe function.
I think the function is what itis.
Jandel Allen-Davis (10:17):
We did a podcast some couple back maybe
on polarities, you know, and Isometimes find myself in the
midst of that and it's reallyhard as a physician to be in the
midst of that where you've gotthe tension between a business
to run and we don't like tothink about health care that way
.
But it is, and this amazing,wonderful thing we get to do and
(10:37):
it is the sacred trust oftaking care of people who need
us in a way that nobody wakes upin the morning saying I think I
want to be a patient and I'vesaid I don't have, in this role,
the luxury of saying one's moreimportant than the other.
We've got to balance that.
The care experience, thequality, got to look at all the
things that are going onexternally.
We should not be ashamed orembarrassed about profits.
(11:00):
We should be able to say it.
Or, in the case of nonprofits,we talk about margins, although
it's still profits.
It's just what happens withthem.
And is there the opportunity toraise all boats, including what
shareholder value looks like,if we think differently around
the products we sell, the peoplewho help us deliver those
products and the people who areupstream, providing all the
(11:24):
things we need to deliver theproduct, so I know it's doable.
I get to see it every day inthis place called Craig Hospital
in some ways that I never wouldhave dreamed possible.
So, yeah, I think that you'rehitting on something really big.
And talking about the sittingat the table, I suspect fighting
, not in any conflict as part ofhow you balance those two polls
(11:50):
, but I'd say healthy conflictbased on values and principles.
Talk about yours.
Ryan Heckman (11:56):
Yeah, I wonder.
I think a lot of careers, sadly, have been maybe ruined or
people have maybe been eventerminated from their
organizations for what they say,but a lot of more organizations
, I think, have been ruinedbecause of what people don't say
.
Yes, right, there's this weirdthing where it takes a lot of
(12:20):
courage to be disagreeable as anindividual and if you're in an
organization that doesn'tincentivize that, then the
organization gets the detrimentover time.
I mean, some of the worstorganizations I've seen because
that's what I do for a living isbuy great organizations and for
(12:42):
every one I buy there'sprobably 20 that we don't.
Well, those other 19, I wouldsay one of the common traits of
a bad organization is all thethings that aren't said in a
meeting and all the things thatare said outside of the meeting,
that's, the meetings outside ofthe meeting.
As leaders, I think creatingthat safe environment, as you
(13:02):
said, to encourage dissent, iskind of one of those secret
sauces that's right under ournose but, like a lot of things,
is easier to say but harder todo.
You know, I mean there's a lotof social pressure on employees
and leadership teams to be liked.
I mean I think it's safe to saythat one of our incentives when
(13:25):
we come to work is to get paidfor the work we do and we like
to be respected and appreciatedand sometimes if you're
disagreeable you lose theopportunity to be liked and I
don't think any of us like tofeel that way.
So you know, I always look upto leaders who kind of come at
discussions like we'redescribing, with this great
(13:47):
sense of curiosity and respectfor the dissenters view and
actually like reward people forthose dissents.
Now it doesn't mean you have toagree with them.
Jandel Allen-Davis (13:56):
Right.
You know, when people do that,team members here do that, I
thank them and they know my dooris open.
They can say anything to me and, in fact, someone reminded me
of something that we hadn't doneand it's work that we have to
do.
So there's a scramble at theend of the week to get something
out and to get a thank you backfrom the team members saying
(14:18):
it's just so nice to be able toraise issues with leadership and
have them, you know, answeredand to be not just responded to
okay, okay, but to do somethingabout it, and I think you
actually end up my belief is youend up creating more engagement
and more people who are goingto actually keep your butt out
of trouble, if you want to knowthe truth, because there's
(14:38):
somebody somewhere.
We learned this in patientsafety work some years ago for
Kaiser Permanente, and I mean tothink that airplanes literally
have fallen out of the skybecause people were afraid to
say you're running out of gas.
I mean, and those are thestories from you know, sort of
the, the airline industry, ofall that, as they really started
viewing themselves as an ultrasafe industry, the big things
(15:01):
they had to do weren't thetechnology.
It was really the stuff.
It was this ability to speakyour truth to anybody to stop
the line.
There's this.
His name was professor root.
I saw that on the slide.
When armed with the sameinformation, we're likely to
come to the same conclusions ohyeah, that's a good one and so
and I love that his name wasroot- get to the root cause.
(15:21):
And there you go.
So just really a beautiful wayof putting it.
Ryan Heckman (15:25):
Jendale, who I find, when I have a dissenting
view, there's a certain amountof courage that someone has to
have to give the dissenting view.
But then there's the other side, which is, as a leader, I feel
uncomfortable or, I guess, likefearful I'm going to discourage
them if I don't agree or I don'tmove forward with the path that
(15:48):
they've recommended.
That might be in contrast tothe one that that I think is
right.
What is your inner voice whenyou, when you know someone is
pounding the table on somethingyou just know isn't right, but
you want to encourage thiswillingness to engage in a
healthy dialogue, but you knowyou're going to say no.
(16:09):
How do you get the courage tosay it in a way, and do you ever
feel like you hurt someone'sfeelings when you don't take
their input?
Jandel Allen-Davis (16:18):
well I I frequently feel like I hurt
their feelings, but I think oneof the things that you mentioned
that's important is that youask lots of questions, you stay
in a space of curiosity.
Don't let yourself get hijackedby the emotion that they're
bringing, because then that itactually is a distraction as
opposed to something that's veryhelpful.
I also think that there aregreat ideas that come along, or
(16:41):
great suggestions, or great, inthis case, motions or ways of
directions that you should takea place that really are about
timing and framing.
I'm going to give you somefeedback in a positive way.
You also, despite how much itsucks to have to be that no, we
are not going that way.
You model leadership, courage,because there's sometimes that
(17:03):
we're the only ones who can makethe decision right and after a
ton of input, sometimes we haveto say this isn't a direction
we're going and it's no fun,because we do worry about being
liked and we do worry about Imean the other one is we were
about is what if we're wrong?
And it couldn't happen thatyou're wrong but son comes up?
Ryan Heckman (17:19):
tomorrow.
I do want to touch on atechnique that I saw one of our
CEOs at a really cool companycalled pics health, based out of
Tucson.
Her name is Cindy Jordan andshe's a thought leader in the
field of loneliness and socialisolation, and she has a, an app
that gets delivered to patientpopulations all over the country
(17:41):
on behalf of payers.
She actually created a culturecommittee where she identified
there were probably seven oreight of them that were super
important and weren'tnecessarily at the high end of
the org chart and, as it as ithappened, there were a couple at
the high end of the org chartand a couple is a low end and a
whole bunch of people in themiddle, and what she uses them
(18:04):
to do is that when she has a bigdecision to make, she gets
their input and they talk aboutit, and then she takes that
input into consideration.
She asks them questions like ifwe're going to do this, how
would it be best received in theorganization you know, and so
it gives her, like this, verydeliberate sounding board, and
(18:27):
then a side benefit is a salesforce, if you will, for change.
Yes, and the reality is thatyou need a sales force within
your organization at all levelsto to champion and not change
and what she's done through thisculture club is created a sales
force for her to get a bunch ofstuff done that may or may not
have been as popular withoutthat sales force you know it's
(18:49):
beautiful, but that is a fewthings.
Jandel Allen-Davis (18:51):
One you talk about influence.
Which leadership?
I say leadership is basicallythis idea of using influence to
get stuff done.
So beautiful example of usinginfluence and using those
informal networks.
Talk about strategic, as I'llget out.
You talk about lifting othersup, which I think is one of the
(19:12):
other really important things wedo the skills that she is
growing and those people whodon't have titles that'll either
serve that organization orthey'll go on to serve others
just through, first of all.
I mean when you think aboutGillette saying call me when
you're through college, or theangels, when I think about that
have been in my life along theway.
(19:33):
They see in us things we can'tsee in ourselves.
When the call comes to do x, y,z.
I remember when jack cokron,who's the executive medical
director no, he wasn't at thetime, his plastic surgeon was on
the board of the med groupcalled me and he knew who I was
I'm just ob g y n doing what Ido, which was working super hard
, and said you need to run forthe board of the Permanente
(19:56):
medical group.
It's like I knew his name.
I knew you know my little.
He's like very important and,uh, he said me, and not only did
I run with that sort of littletiny thing, go for it, but
ultimately chaired the board ofthe medical group for a time,
and then all these other sortsof opportunities come along.
So there's also that.
(20:16):
And out of all of the thingsshe gave, more than she got.
Yeah, she got her message out.
You get the.
You know that.
You use your informal networks,but what she gave those people
around that sense of I matter, Iam significant, my
contributions mean something andI'm going to say much better
things about this organizationoutside of this room because of
(20:39):
the opportunities given.
That's just that's leadershipin my view.
That's real leadership and Ilove to do that here.
I do.
I actually like dissenters, Idon't like cynics and I remember
the phrase you know encouragedissension but challenge
cynicism.
You really should and you canand you can see it.
You know the difference.
But I say bring it, I getbetter because of it.
(21:01):
And it takes the ability to tocall yourself.
If you dumb, you know what, ifyou miss the thing, if someone
tells you or you know at 2 30 inthe morning, say thank God.
People know that I cannotpossibly see, know, hear or do
everything.
And then we have to rememberthat we can't see, know, do or
hear everything, and that we itis a massive village that allows
(21:24):
us to build great organizations.
Ryan Heckman (21:27):
Well, and behind every one vocal cynic, there's
probably at least 10 to 20 thatjust don't have the courage or
the guts to say it.
Yeah, and so you know.
It's sort of like the canary inthe mine.
Jandel Allen-Davis (21:40):
You know, I could be the Dan Ritchie of
healthcare.
Just keep working, and working,and working, even though my
husband would prefer I didn't,because I love work.
It fills me up in ways that areequal to the things and the
passions I pursue outside ofwork, and I feel like even on
the toughest days, where I amunhappy, there's still so many
(22:02):
moments of joy.
So how do you think about this,this idea of what seems like?
How can you be joyful andunhappy?
How do you think through thosetwo things?
Ryan Heckman (22:14):
Well, there's a great book right now out there
by David Brooks, called theSecond Mountain.
Jandel Allen-Davis (22:19):
Oh yes, have you read that one?
Yes, yes, I love David Brooks.
David Brooks is awesome.
Ryan Heckman (22:23):
He's got a real way with words.
He has a whole chapter devotedto the word joyful, and his
basic thesis is that happinessis a reaction to something
that's you know good, and thatwe strive to get as many good
things as we can so that we'reotherwise happy.
And it's a rather diminishingway of looking at the world,
(22:46):
because you're waiting, you'rehoping good stuff happens to you
when you wake up in the morning.
Joy, on the other hand, is astate of mind, it's a state of
being, it's in your control.
Most importantly, when you wakeup in the morning, it's like am
I gonna be full of joy todayand am I gonna share that with
other people?
I think it might be like themost.
(23:09):
If I had to pick onecharacteristic that has the
biggest return on investment oreffort, I would say it's
choosing to be joyful when youwake up in the morning.
It just so happens that spousesotherwise prefer to be with a
joyful spouse.
It so happens that employeeslike to be in a joyful
(23:31):
organization.
It so happens that people wannado business with joyful people.
When you're recruiting, it'simportant and at the end of the
day, the joy you give ends upbeing the joy you receive from
other people and if you give ityou'll get it in return and
(23:53):
David Brooks does a wonderfuljob of talking about the state
of mind part of this and that wecan all choose to be joyful,
but we don't get to choose goodthings to happen to us so that
we're happy.
And so when I think about ajoyful organization, I was
taught that there's three thingsthat most employees want from
(24:14):
their organizations that producea joyful one, and one is real
relationships, connection, andnot over football necessarily,
although that's fun to talkabout.
What connection means in thiscontext is knowing that what
matters to Jen Dell matters toRyan and that you know that Jen
(24:35):
Dell, like what matters to you,matters to me and vice versa.
When I know that what mattersto me matters to you, that is
the ultimate form of arelationship and a connection,
and that's the organizationallevel as well as the
interpersonal level, so that wecould call disconnection or
relationships.
The second one is helpingeveryone in the organization
(24:58):
feel like they had an impact.
You know, when they go home atnight and they're driving home,
they can think of one thing thatthey did that left an imprint
on the day, whatever that may be, and that they're seen for it,
that they're recognized for thatimpact.
I think that's a big one.
And the third one is, you know,personal development.
(25:20):
Does the organization you knowgive chances to me to grow?
In other words, am I a betterversion of myself every year
that I'm at Craig Hospital?
Now you get to cheat a littlebit on this one, jen Dell
because, your patients and I'msure they're caregivers love on
your team a lot, but that'sunique.
(25:42):
Well, I should also add thetough part of that is it's long
hours and tough duty what youremployees do, but they get a lot
of emotional juice out of it.
It's not so in other industries, and so finding ways to give
employees a chance to becomebetter versions of themselves
when they're at yourorganization, If you can hit all
(26:04):
three of these thingsconnection and real
relationships, helping peoplefeel like and be recognized for
the impact that they have everyday at all levels of your work
chart.
Jandel Allen-Davis (26:13):
And then the third one Opportunity for
growth.
Ryan Heckman (26:15):
Growth.
And if you hit those threethings, very likely you're gonna
have less turnover and perhapsmore competency year in and year
out with your workforce.
Jandel Allen-Davis (26:27):
The other thing I you probably don't know,
but on this whole idea ofimpact, relationship and
connection, the opportunity forgrowth, we actually looked at
that kind of data at KP becausewe had from our employees.
We also had because we care forright.
I mean, it's a healthcaresystem.
So we knew not to by name oranything but new healthcare
(26:48):
utilization and we also didhealth and wellbeing.
We did this in the environmentof I can't remember the name of
the survey, but it was reallylooking at those a number of
dimensions of wellbeing and theplaces that had a higher sense
of wellbeing also had higheremployee engagement in that and,
interestingly, lower healthcareutilization.
Ryan Heckman (27:09):
Wow.
Jandel Allen-Davis (27:10):
So we have way more.
Those are those unseen waysthat toxic workplaces literally
eat at our physiology, eat atour health, eat out our sense of
well-being.
So it all does tie together andit's.
I mean.
I think people can think ofthis word joy through mushy
(27:32):
lenses, but I don't think of itway.
I walk around this hospital andI see joy.
I don't always see happiness.
Nobody wakes up in the morningand says I think I want to go to
Craig.
Ryan Heckman (27:42):
Nobody.
I'm touching on a big momenthere in this conversation to me,
because there may be a theremay not be a more profound
laboratory for testing whetheryou can be joyful and unhappy at
the same time than at CraigHospital.
Jandel Allen-Davis (28:03):
All right, it is a huge amen to that.
And here's the thing, though,that I've taken it as I've
thought about this, because I dosee gratitude.
I mean, you sort of think, well, what does joy look like in
action?
There's a sense of gratitude,there's a sense of optimism, a
sense where I can bring my wholeself into work, a sense where
(28:23):
I'm seen and can see you, asense that, at the end of the
day, I can check a few boxesmost days about what I actually
might have accomplished in thisimpact space, and that there was
the opportunity to stop and say, yeah, how's that going with
that?
Like, I know you well enough toknow those little facts about
people that allow them gosh,they know that it's like, yeah,
(28:46):
and I don't know it in amanipulative way.
I know it because I'm deeplyinterested and care about the
people I care about.
Well, the same thing happenswith their patients.
I mean, books come here aftersome catastrophic, horrible
accidents, with some of thestories that were just what
sense does this make?
And yet that's what I get tosee that resilience, the sense
(29:07):
of hope on steroids and peopleable to say I can move this.
Today, I was able to get thesewords out.
Today, I am coming to termswith what are going to be
limitations and how to overcomethem.
I mean, we give people hope, so, but here's the thing I said
well, why can't?
How would you bottle that andgive that to an acute care
(29:29):
hospital, an emergency roomphysician, nurse, folks working
in ORs, folks working on medicalsurgical floors?
What, effectively, we're allhere to do is to relieve
suffering.
We're just relieving sufferingand that appendectomy don't
compare an appendectomy to aspinal cord injury, Don't.
In both cases, what iscomparable is the fact that
we're here to relieve sufferingand there's great joy in being
(29:52):
able to say I relieve suffering.
There's great joy and Idelivered a baby today.
There's really great joy inthat.
There's great joy in standingin an infusion center and
treating cancer chemotherapy.
There's great joy when thosepatients, when they finish those
rounds of therapy which hasbecome a thing now in these
infusion centers, where there'sa big sort of dancing off into
(30:14):
the moonlight or sunset orsunrise as that last treatment,
and if we can, as healthcarepeople, get back to that why
Because that is the why of thiswork, at least for me Then it's
a good day.
They may not all be happy, theywill be filled with conflict.
From time to time they will befilled with trying to figure out
how you balance these poles,these tensions.
(30:37):
It's just about remembering whowe serve.
Ryan Heckman (30:40):
Wow, thanks for your joyful leadership.
Jandel Allen-Davis (30:43):
Oh, that was a very joyful moment.
I just that, without lunch.
I'd say, yeah, well, I think wemight be sort of getting down
to the end of our time together.
And, as you think about it, ifthere's just one thing that
you've learned through all ofyour experiences, what would it
be?
Ryan Heckman (31:03):
I'll answer it in two different ways.
One is the difference between acareer and a vocation, and the
way you show up every day.
When you have committedyourself to a vocation, I think,
means that you're notnecessarily trying to climb the
ladder.
You're in service to others andyou're trying to add value and
(31:28):
be significant to other people.
I think that's a big choice weall have to make when we show up
at work.
I think it also says somethingabout where you are in your
learning journey.
I mean, one of the things I'mmost proud about is that I'm
learning at a much faster pacenow than when I started my
(31:49):
career 25 years ago, and that's,I think, a byproduct of my
dedication to the craft.
What I do and why I do it, andwho I do it for these are really
important questions.
I wasn't always that way.
I probably had my awakening, ifyou will, through some big
(32:11):
failures, oftentimes Over time.
Those failures helped merealize that there is a better
way to live than just trying toclimb the ladder every day.
That would be one thing.
The second one is just thatchoice.
We already talked about that.
The one thing you can controlevery day is whether you're
(32:33):
going to show up joyful or notand shine that joy on other
people.
I think that you can't controlthe outcomes, but by God you can
.
You literally can control beingjoyful or not.
It's like a choice, and thelast one would just be the
disappointments in life.
If you've ever read the bookthe Prophet, there's a chapter
(32:53):
on holding joy and sorrow inboth hands every day and
realizing that life is reallysloppy and yucky at times and
not getting too bummed out whenit's not going well, but also
not getting too full of yourselfwhen things are good.
Like it's holding both joy andsorrow in equal weight in both
(33:15):
hands on a day to day, a monthto month, year to year basis,
and just realizing that part ofthe human condition, part of
being a human, is having a wholebunch of bad stuff happen to
you.
I would dare say that when Ilook at the most successful
people, it's not how they gottheir success or their wins,
it's how did they respond to theadversity?
(33:38):
How do you do better in thisworld?
I don't think it's by winningbetter.
I think it's by losing better,Somehow figuring out how to
respond to bad things happeningto you and the adversity.
If you can get really good atthat.
I think that might be part ofthe ultimate way of doing well
(34:00):
in this world.
I really believe that.
Jandel Allen-Davis (34:02):
Well, what an incredible full circle.
Back to what I witnessed in thehospital.
In one phrase which I've heardis that I would not want to go
back to who I was before I wasinjured, because there's lots of
ways to respond to theseinjuries.
What we have the capacity tofigure out about ourselves in
facing adversity is prettytransformational, or has the
(34:25):
ability to do that, and not justto transform your life.
But others.
I was sitting here talking thatlast little bit and thinking you
know what a gift it is to haveso many amazing people in my
life, that you know you go backto any one of the dark periods,
and there were plenty growing upin my life that I never would
have thought that I'd have theopportunity to meet so many
(34:47):
great people and do suchwonderful work in service to
others.
That's why I work as hard as Ido, because it's a gift and
you're a poor husband.
Ryan Heckman (34:57):
You are going to Dan Richie him.
I'm going to Dan Richie thepoor guy.
I'm sure he knew that when yougot married.
Jandel Allen-Davis (35:02):
I'll make sure he listens to this
unstoppable episode becausehe'll hear at the end dude, I
kind of like to work, I kind oflike the work it's, I like to
garden, I like to do the art, Ilike to do all the other
wonderful things I do outside ofthis place, but I love service
and the chance to meet andconnect with people doing great
things, which you are doing.
So keep surprising us.
(35:23):
You're a model to so many.
Who, again, who, much has beengiven and just to remind them,
much is expected.
So, thank you.
Ryan Heckman (35:33):
My pleasure and it's been a wonderful, wonderful
opportunity.
Jandel Allen-Davis (35:40):
In reflecting on this time together
, I'm once again struck by howmany absolutely incredible
leaders we are blessed to havein Colorado doing work, big and
small.
But if there's a theme thatruns throughout the work is this
it's this idea of having theopportunity to give back and to
(36:03):
do your best and to dream bigand actually to dream bigger
than in ways that you didn'teven think possible.
You know, starting thisconversation with Ryan Hickman,
my dear friend, who comes frompretty humble beginnings and has
managed to not just thread aneedle but to do great work and
(36:24):
also still view hisaccountability and
responsibility and desire togive back, whether it's repaying
in a really amazing way, payingit forward the folks who
provide a college education forhim, or giving college tuition
for 50 kids to be able to finishcommunity college, and this out
(36:46):
of financial benefits that hereceived that could easily have
been in his pocket and stayed inhis pocket that he chose to do
these really big ideas, big waysof giving back, is really
remarkable.
So starting there and thenbeing able to say that the
things that employees, our teammembers, want more than anything
(37:06):
else is the ability to knowthat they are having an impact,
that the fact that they came towork, that they showed up, made
a difference, and ouraccountability and
responsibility to make sure thatthey know that that they had an
opportunity to grow and developand stretch and be their best
selves.
Ryan's story also beautifullyarticulates how you can, in
(37:32):
service to doing a work, whichis in the case of private equity
.
Providing a funding stream canturn that around, and it doesn't
have to be a negative that.
It really is about how youchoose to show up and how you
choose to engage in the work.
I so appreciated his courage andbeing able to call out the
parts of his chosen professionthat aren't going well or that
(37:55):
are the ugly parts of it.
And we have those in healthcareand we have those in banking
and we have those inconstruction.
We have those everywhere.
And in the end, what he saidwhich I think is just amazingly
important and there was aclarity about that that we all
can embody as this notion ofchoosing.
(38:16):
You can choose to do good orchoose to be bad or not do good.
You can choose to put youremployees and those you serve
first, or you can choose anotherway, but probably the most
important thing I heard today isthat you can choose joy, and if
there's anything I think I'velearned over this long, long
career and hope to continue fora lot more years is that I
(38:38):
always choose joy, and thatmotivates me and carries me
through tough days and has mesoaring through the good ones
and there's far more of thosethan there are the tough days
and that's in no small partbecause I have chosen to live a
certain way, and I hope you, asleaders, to feel the
encouragement that you can do ittoo.
(38:59):
So I want to thank you onceagain for spending some time
with us on the Unstoppable atCraig podcast.
This is Janelle Allen Davis,and until next time, be well and
choose joy.
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