July 24, 2023 • 38 mins
Are you ready to redefine the landscape of leadership through creativity? We promise an enlightening journey as we sit down with former Colorado Poet Laureate, Bobby LeFebre, and delve into the vital role of creativity and curiosity in the workplace. We explore how the marriage of imagination and innovation can drive growth and navigate the complexities of our modern world.
We not only scratch the surface but dig deeper into the art of questioning, the power it harnesses to create forward movement, and how it challenges the status quo. We unravel the beauty of diversity, highlighting the balance between creative and analytical minds and their role in cultivating innovation. Through the lens of vulnerability, we explore how critique groups can stir growth within an organization, fostering a culture of trust and inclusivity.
As we wrap up, we leave you with this thought - a successful venture is a collaborative effort, a beautiful dance of creatives, statisticians, and analysts, all working together towards a shared vision. Are you ready to embark on this journey of creativity and leadership with us?
-----------------
Disclaimer: The content in this podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice or treatment for specific medical conditions. No professional relationship is implied or otherwise established by reading this document. You should not use this information to diagnose or treat a health problem or disease without consulting with a qualified healthcare provider. Craig Hospital is not affiliated with resources that may be referenced in this podcast. Craig Hospital assumes no liability for any third-party material or for any action or inaction taken as a result of any content or any suggestions made in this podcast and should not be relied upon without independent investigation. The information on this page is a public service provided by Craig Hospital and in no way represents a recommendation or endorsement by Craig Hospital. Any use of this content by a corporation or other revenue-seeking or -generating organization is prohibited unless first approved by Craig Hospital.
For more information, transcriptions and behind-the-scene photos, visit https://craighospital.org/unstoppable
Craig Hospital is a world-renowned rehabilitation hospital that exclusively specializes in neurorehabilitation and research for individuals with spinal cord injury (SCI) and brain injury (BI). Located in Englewood, Colorado, Craig Hospital is a 350,000-square-foot, 93-bed, private, not-for-profit center of excellence providing a comprehensive system of inpatient and outpatient neurorehabilitation. https://craighospital.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (00:06):
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where
we pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace
cultures click and what happenswhen people are empowered to
expand the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
(00:27):
I'm Dr.
Jand el Allen- Davis, CEO andPresident of Craig Hospital, a
world-renowned rehabilitationhospital the and research of
patients with spinal cord andbrain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation.
(00:47):
It is so cool that we're heretoday getting to do this.
I'm almost giddy and giggly.
I'll try not to be.
Having this opportunity to talkwith Bobby LeFebre, who is a
recent friend, I would say,although I have known of your
(01:11):
work from afar for a long time,so it means a ton that you would
spend time with Craig, with me,today, talking about the whole
topic of creativity.
But this podcast is reallyfocused and created and
hopefully sharing some messagesof what it's like and what's
required of leaders in thisparticular epoch in which we
(01:33):
find ourselves, and so I havethe privilege and the
opportunity to think aboutleadership through a ton of
lenses and speak to peopleinside and outside of Craig On
any of a host of topics, and onefor sure, the minute we
launched this that I wanted tospend time talking about was the
importance of creativity in theworkplace.
So it just seemed super fittingin terms of understanding the
(01:57):
importance of creativity that Ihad a chance to talk with you.
Colorado's former ju st recentlycompleted your term as our poet
laureate which is an amazinghonor and in some ways, not
surprising, to me.
But back to the topic ofcreativity in organizations
today.
I ground this work in a lot ofways in Daniel Pink's A Whole
(02:21):
New Mind, where he talked aboutand puts forth the notion that
we've solved effectively theeasy stuff in our planet.
I like to say.
we can get food from one sideof the world to the other.
For the most part, water isclean and we know how to clean
it, even in the places where itisn't.
You know, we can fly planes tocrazy places.
(02:43):
We've done all the technicalstuff.
The hard societal,organizational, structural
components of how our worldworks requires a different way
of thinking, and that's whatPink talks about, this notion of
the whole new mind is thatwe're in a very complex world
that's going to take a differentsort of approach and way of
thinking about it, and I thinkcreativity has a super important
(03:06):
role to play.
Bobby LeFebre (03:07):
Absolutely, and creativity is really all we know
.
It's been a, as you said, atool, i think, throughout human
history to move us forward in somany different ways.
It's something that haspropelled us into new ways of
being, new ways of thinking, and, when I think about it, without
(03:28):
that process we would not becontinuing to evolve and change
and grow, and so I do think it'sa foundational element to our
humaneness our ability to takein, analyze and then put out,
And I think that that's thatprocess you know, both
(03:48):
artistically, talking aboutleadership, or even just you
know, living in this world thatwe are in every single day.
We utilize it, whether or not weare conscious of it or not
constantly processing,constantly analyzing and then
creating something from that,And I think that that's
something that I value andreally, really love about who we
(04:10):
are and how we do.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (04:11):
Yeah, i love that you just brought it
out to say that, and we ought totalk at some point about how we
beat that notion of creativity,through the narrow lens of how
we think about it, out of kidsat an early age and how in the
workplace we make it sound likethis weird fluffy stuff as
opposed to taking a step backand saying, no, this is who we
(04:33):
are.
As I think about creativity andinnovation, I find myself
thinking about how does?
posing the question, what, if?
how we get what we get, how wegrow what we grow, how we do
what we do and how we haveevolved over time?
Bobby LeFebre (04:47):
I think that question.
You know what if the root ofthat is curiosity And I think,
when we stop thinking in a waythat is curious and we stop
behaving in a way that's curious, we find ourselves stagnant and
we can't grow, we can't move,we can't innovate in a place of
stagnation.
And so when I think about whatit means to be curious, there's
(05:08):
an activeness attached to that.
When we're curious, we'rehungry for new ways of looking
at things, of interrogating whowe are, how we are and why, and
that's not just the personal butthe collective.
We have to ask that, thosequestions of ourselves.
But we also have to ask thosequestions about societies and
systems and institutions andepistemologies and ways of
(05:32):
knowing and being.
Because when we stop beingcurious, when we stop thinking
about what, if what is, we losesight of that visionary aspect
of our being, and I think thatit's applicable to every aspect
of life.
You know, and I try to look atthe world, to curiousize every
single day, whether that'sthrough my artistic practice or
(05:54):
my work in human services or myactivism or my advocacy for arts
and culture, cultural identity.
All of these things have to bereimagined And imagination is
the vehicle by which we get tothose things, and if we don't
activate those things, we'rejust boring.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (06:13):
What's been in the way or what is in
the way in organizations and inleadership.
That beats the creativity out.
Bobby LeFebre (06:23):
Yeah, we have a very binary way of looking at
things in this world,unfortunately, and it's either
this or that all the time, andall of the fun stuff lives in
the middle of those two things.
And so I think that's part ofthe issue is the business world,
leadership world.
Often we look at things likecreativity as not important.
(06:44):
It's that old cliche of whatyou're looking for is what
you'll see, and so if we're notlooking to be in this space of
growth and with the growthmindset, we're not going to see
those things.
And so I think that that's partof the issue is we have to
change the lens by which we lookat everything, or just
recognize that this iscreativity, this is art in
(07:06):
action.
The ways in which leaders canengage with their communities is
, i think, one of collaboration,and I think that good leaders
understand that, they understandcommunication, they're not
afraid to explore, they're notafraid to learn from folks.
I think if we look atleadership in a more circular
(07:27):
way as opposed to a hierarchicalone, that collaboration, that
influence really disrupts thesearchaic ways of thinking and
doing and being, and the morethat we can do that, i think,
the better we'll be.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (07:42):
You know , the part that I will tie over
my leadership journey that Ifound most frustrating is the
inability to slow down to allowfor the creative process to play
out.
I loved what you said aboutthis binary, the either or.
One of my favorites saying islife is lived in the gray.
We actually don't live at the,at these other sorts of at the
(08:05):
polls.
Life is lived in the gray and itis the fun part, but it
requires leaders to be OK withthat.
How do you think America or theworld or organizations arrived
at this sort of shore of youknow goals that have to be done
(08:25):
in a year, or you know thequarterly earnings or these
sorts of things which have thisvery linear, have linear
implications but actually, oranything but.
Bobby LeFebre (08:36):
Yeah, i mean, i think there's multiple things
that come to mind right.
One is like the inevitabilityof the world that we live in,
the systems and institutionsthat guide us, everything from
you know, the global to thingslike capitalism, that teach us,
you know, certain ways of kindof showing up in the world, and
I think sometimes we don'tquestion where we're headed
(08:59):
until it's too late.
You know, we get to a pointwhere paradigms are built and
you know, systems are sort of inplace and there's no
questioning and we just kind ofmove along with that.
And that's one thing that Ithink creative people always do
is we always ask questions.
And I think question asking isthe, you know, the basis of all
(09:20):
forward movement, because we'realways, we're never happy.
We're never happy where we'reat, and it's not a bad thing.
We're always just lookingforward to what's possible.
So I think that we get ahead ofourselves sometimes and without
folks questioning that statusquo, things move and they don't
change, and I think that that'sthe primary focus of creative
(09:41):
people and artists.
Really, i think artists, ithink the professional world can
learn a lot from the way theartists move, because we're
always disrupting, you know,those things that are getting in
the way of the potential thatwe can harness if we just give
ourselves the opportunity to seethose things.
And I do believe that anyonecan be an artist, anybody can
(10:03):
create art, but I don't believethat everyone necessarily has
the eyes of the heart or thespirit of a poet, and that thing
is something that I think canbe nurtured and developed.
But I think that there'sopportunity to again harness a
collective approach to how weare, inclusive of what
leadership practices might looklike, and we need the super
(10:25):
analytic folks analytical folksto really balance out the
creative nature of folks thatare just more concerned with
generating ideas.
And there's a place in themiddle that I think innovation
happens And I think that folkscan be both.
I think that the artist and thecultural worker, and the
creative can also trainthemselves into a more
(10:48):
regimented state of being And Ithink that that balance actually
creates a lot of hope and a lotof balance where we're not
always looked at as sort ofthese loose cannons that are
just kind of out and about.
Artists are actually verydisciplined, whether that's
recognized or not.
Creative people are verydisciplined, but I do believe
that, as a leader, if we canmodel those things as leaders,
(11:12):
it empowers the folks that we'releading to adopt those
approaches to things, and that'swhere the growth happens,
that's where the synergy happens, that's where the ideas come
from, is when you can be excitedin a room of people with
different ideas and approachesto leadership or approaches to
getting the work done.
I really do believe that everyperson is a word in a sentence
(11:36):
and that sentence createsmeaning, and that meaning is
derived from including differentways of being, and that's
really, really important.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (11:46):
So I know that, in addition to your
incredible artistry and I willuse it that way you too have
another job.
How do you pull creativity intoyour work at the Department of
Human Services in Denver?
Bobby LeFebre (11:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's important.
Our work, we work with the mostvulnerable folks in the city
And we have a team of folks thatare out in community every day
connecting with folks, providingresource navigation, and we
work with immigrant and refugeecommunities, we work with
(12:19):
veteran communities, We workwith the most marginalized in
the city, and so, to understandwhat it takes to reach those
folks, it creates an environmentwhere we have to ask big
questions and we have to cometogether to figure out what the
need is.
And some of that is arecognition of where we've been
And everything changes all thetime, and I think that that's
(12:42):
part of it is being nimble Andwe have to understand that new
ideas are.
It's paramount in the work thatwe do understanding what is
happening.
What is research telling us?
How do we combine what we'reseeing and what we're feeling
with what we know and createthose environments and worlds
(13:04):
for better ways?
And so for me, i think of againthe collaborative approach.
For me is where the magic lives, when we're able to sit at a
table and hear diverseperspectives and then create
something from that that iseither a policy, a procedure, a
way forward, when people can seetheir own voice in that
(13:26):
authorship.
It empowers people to continueto communicate with you, to open
up lines of communication.
And again, i think sometimes wevalue hierarchy a little bit
too much and we don't valuecollective thinking.
We don't value collectivebrainstorming, and some of the
most, i would say, progressiveways of implementing new things
(13:51):
have come from that creativeprocess of brainstorming.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (13:55):
You know , what's interesting about what
you said is I can remember yearsago, through my beginning
stages, go back to the late 90s,moving from a quilter to a
quilt artist and then doingfiber art and joining a critique
group, and there's somethingcollectively beautiful about
(14:16):
sitting at a table, as much asyou're saying, and you bring
your work First of all.
it's kind of like there's somevulnerability to saying, hey,
what do you think?
And having the opportunity tosee how it hits people, how they
respond, what they feel like.
boy, well, you're inviting meinto a conversation that has
real applicability to exactlywhat you're saying in terms of
how organizations can not justthrive but can grow and evolve.
(14:38):
So the requirements, as anartist, to actually put your
stuff out there how do younavigate that and why is that
important?
Bobby LeFebre (14:48):
The way I see it is, we have an opportunity to
influence what values are, whatour values are, and through
these questions and this processof exploration, i think that
that's what it is.
It's culture.
It's culture and world building.
If we can do that, if we cancreate culture and create a
(15:09):
world that we are comfortableliving inside of, that also
shows others who may havedifferent ideas of what that
looks like, that.
Hey, this approach may besomething I'm not comfortable
with, but it's actually working,and I think that people that
live in an environment of wheretesting something out is a value
, where failure may also be avalue, that it's okay, that
(15:33):
we're not going to win all thetime.
We're going to get it wrongsometimes.
Let's celebrate some of those.
Yes, and how do we come backfrom that?
Do we sulk in it and do we livein that for so long that that
becomes the norm, or do we getback up, ask new questions?
try new things and employ againcreativity to usher us into the
(15:54):
next phase of whatever thatlooks like.
So I think so much of what Itry to impart on the folks that
I am in charge of leading is Howdo we create agreements and how
do those agreements lead tovalues and how do we live those
values and how does that thenmove into the mission and vision
for the agency and theorganization.
All of those things areconnected And so how do we
(16:16):
influence those things?
and realizing that it shouldalways be a work in progress, we
should always be moving andchanging and thinking
differently, and it's okay ifour strategic plan changes and
it's okay if our approachchanges and it's okay if our
leadership changes.
But the work needs to be rootedin who we're serving and how we
ultimately get to those places.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (16:38):
You know , the thing that hit me as you
were talking is the idea ofhappy accidents and risk taking,
not as something that's scary,but imagine waking up in the
morning saying I'm gonna risksome stuff today And viewing
that through the other side ofthe coin, which is that's how
you grow And that's also how youdevelop resilience, both as
(17:02):
individuals or as organizations.
Bobby LeFebre (17:05):
I think sometimes we focus on the results far too
much as opposed to the process.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (17:09):
Sorry, and that's the CEO saying that.
Bobby LeFebre (17:10):
Absolutely, you know the process again.
The gray area going backprocess is gray area right.
And I think, if we're not soresults driven, if we employ
more of an emergent process, theidea that something requires
pressure, that conflict is notnecessarily a bad thing.
right, conflict can be thisbeautiful garden that we grow
(17:31):
things in.
it doesn't have to be a war.
A conflict can be the placewhere, you know, new ideas
emerge And if we just allowourselves to live in that space
of a more emergent way, we cansurprise ourselves and we can
keep our minds open to the waysin which the left and the right
brain work in tandem to solveour most complex issues.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (17:54):
Yeah, You know, it's also interesting
to think about just a tiny story, how I even came to know that I
could, quote, do art.
It was just a very simplestatement that had a actually a
black women's retreat isattending and a woman who had
thrown all of the Wall Streetstuff away and gone to do her
(18:14):
particular form of art.
I was looking at her masks andshe said why did you choose
those?
I said, well, I make quilts,but the quilts are your quilts,
But what people talk about isthe color.
And she said you're an artist.
I mean, we should be doing thatin our organizations, because
you just never know what's thatone word.
You're an artist, or I'm goingto call you.
(18:35):
Just say yes, taking the riskand showing somebody that person
who is, quote, frontline ormiddle management, as opposed to
thinking we have to have allthe answers.
It seems to me and hearing youtalk that there's this way that
you pull communities together.
There's not this sense thateverybody has to have suits and
ties and degrees, Even withinyour team.
(18:57):
Everybody has the opportunityto have voice heard.
Bobby LeFebre (19:00):
Absolutely, And I think that one of the things I
struggle with most is like newconversations of folks, whether
that's in a personal way or in aprofessional way, in an
artistic way, because when wemeet people for the first time,
one of the first questions weask is so what do you do?
And I really I start to sweatwhen that question happens
because I don't want tomonopolize time, But I think
(19:20):
that one thing in theprofessional space that we often
get wrong is the fact that weare only our titles or we are
only jobs are we are complicatedhuman beings who have diverse
interests in multiple things,and so when I introduce myself I
try to open that space up ofsaying yes, i'm a director, or
(19:41):
yes, i'm a poet, yes, i'm this.
However, all of those thingsmake up who I am, so it's hard.
So when I introduce myself,often I'll say I'm a writer,
performer and cultural worker,and then I'll go and sort of sub
, you know include what thatmeans, you know as a writer, i'm
a poet, i'm a playwright.
As a performer, I'm an actor.
As a cultural worker, i work inhuman services.
(20:02):
I do all these things Because Ithink if we could start to
change the ways in which weintroduce ourselves, the ways in
which we claim who we are inour wholeness and our complete
complexity, as opposed to talkabout our titles or a place of
work, you know, it's notnecessarily like who are we?
Who are we really, how do youexplain yourself to someone
(20:25):
according to the things that you, that energize you, that make
you who you are?
right, i hosted a dinner seriesaround radical imagination And
the first question that I askedas part of that series was who
are you, what is your work andwho are your people?
And I really wanted to get atlike who are you really Like
(20:45):
when I was your title, what isyour job?
But like, who are you at yourcore?
How do you see yourself?
What makes you you?
What is your work?
I think is is a better questionthan what do you do, or you
know, what is your profession,because your work can be
multiple things.
It can be your your job, it canbe your creative work, it could
be your community work, But Ithink the idea of what is your
(21:06):
work and and how, having inphrasing that in a way that
makes people think about itdifferently is interesting.
And then you know who are yourpeople, not necessarily like
family or whatever, but who doyou see as your community?
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (21:19):
And h hat tmpact mpact ithat
Bobby LeFebre (21:23):
And how does that impact who you are and how you
show up?
and what are the values of thatcommunity And how does And make
you who you are?
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (21:28):
You know , it's something that is just
even four and a half years in it.
Craig still astounds me almostdaily, and that's not.
dramatic is how we meet ourpatients where they are.
whoever the we's are, itdoesn't have to just be people
in therapy, could be me, be mewalking through the halls and
just saying hello.
(21:48):
And in ways that sometimes arevery deliberate, but most of the
time we're just sort of part ofthe vibe here to say what if,
based on who you are, who youare, who are your people, what
do you do Not do?
but sometimes, what do you doBecause?
it is important from alivelihood perspective, and then
to adapt our response to thatcall in a way that serves the
(22:11):
mission of rehabilitation.
It's just, it's it.
Bobby LeFebre (22:13):
This place is, it's like creativity, every home
Absolutely, and I think onething about that process that
you're outlining, i think, themost important part of that.
I think sometimes especiallybecause we use that phrase in
human services a lot too insocial work we meet people where
they are, but sometimes we makeassumptions about where people
are without asking them wherethey're actually at, and so the
(22:34):
conversation that needs tohappen with that is I have,
maybe, a data, informedperspective of who you are and
where you are, but I would loveto hear directly from you as to
where you really are, so that Ican meet you there.
As far as what my job is toinvolve you in that conversation
or to provide you with whateverit is that we are doing And so
(22:57):
I think that that it's basicconversations, and I think we've
actually gone away with that.
I think we as a society, we are, we're pulling away from one
another, and and you know, someof that is social and societal
and some of that is, you know,circumstance.
We just, i won't say we'rethrough a global pandemic, but
we experienced one, and thatdefinitely changed the way that
(23:17):
we interact with one another.
It changed our proximity to oneanother, it changed the way
that we see ourselves and thepeople around us, and I think
that we need to get back to someof those very simple human ways
of interacting with one another, conversing with one another,
getting to know one another, and, as a leader, that's one thing
that I really try to do.
You know, i want to know all ofthe people that I work with.
(23:39):
I want to know, you know, notonly what they do in their, in
their, in their work, but likewhat drives them outside of that
, because the more I understandthat, the better I can support
them in times of need.
I could not agree with you morethat we are impatient We've.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (23:56):
There's something with the way that
we've organized, the way thatwe're working, the notion of
time.
We've lost the ability to thinkabout context, which I will
tell you back to this notion ofinclusion and belonging.
There are people on this planetwho are just context rich
people.
There are cultures that arecontext rich And then there are
(24:16):
ones remember here a culturalanthropologist talk about this
some years ago based on growingseasons and things like that,
that you don't have the time todo that kind of sitting around
talking things.
And these are the things thatthen, in a lot of ways, have
spawned the kinds of approachesin sort of modern business, to
the way we do things.
And I know I personally, as aleader, i know I can drive some
(24:38):
people crazy because I am acontext rich person.
I need to understand what I'mswimming in in order to know how
to help and to facilitate howwe swim out or swim better in
that context.
Bobby LeFebre (24:52):
I was in New York and I was hanging out with a
friend of mine who's an actorand I started my creative
pursuits as an actor as well,and one thing that you do as an
actor is you're constantlyobserving.
You're waiting in line for yourfood somewhere and you're
looking at the way that theperson making your hot dog is
moving and how they have aroutine down and how they move
(25:14):
and you kind of file that intoyour toolbox of characters.
And I think that one thing whenI'm hearing you talk about this
thing is we're such anindividualistic culture and that
plays in the ways in which timewe operate in time.
When you catch up with someonefor the first time in a long
(25:35):
time, you ask them how they are.
First thing they tell you isI'm busy, i'm busy, i'm so busy,
i'm good, i'm busy, busy That'swhat we say.
But what are we doing in thatbusyness And creativity needs?
you need time to be creative.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (25:48):
It needs to be creative.
You need time.
Bobby LeFebre (25:49):
You know and I think that that's part of my
leadership journey has alsotaught me that if I am
constantly moving and I don'ttake time to connect with people
or to think or to analyze, i'malso modeling a behavior that
the folks that are I'm in chargeof leading are going to adopt,
(26:11):
and, before you know it, we'reall going to be so busy We're
not going to take time toconnect And there's a disconnect
that happens in that.
And so I think that, if we areable to, it's fine to be busy,
if it's on purpose, if it'spurposeful, if we have a plan
right, if we have ideas abouthow we're spending our time and
(26:31):
ensuring that we're maximizingthat, as opposed to just being
busy for busy's sake, becausethat's a it's not helpful.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (26:38):
Yeah, it's not helpful, it's become
this crazy badge of honor.
I wanted to go back to thenotion of really saying who are
you.
It's another thing that is soinherent in what happens at
Craig, because when our patientsand families arrive at the door
ready to start this nextchapter of this journey, that is
(26:58):
a true right or left turn intheir life's walk, literally in
some cases.
There's a vulnerability thatit's almost like all of the sort
of illusions or the masks orthings that you might put, you
might wear in your day to dayare gone when you find that
(27:19):
mobility is different or yourability to think are different.
And so there's this realshedding of the skins and the
layers that allow us to reallyfigure out how, to quote, meet
people where they are.
And, as you were saying thatthing about meeting people where
they are, where we often do itbased on you know the typical
things.
I can look at your size, yourweight, your height, your race,
(27:41):
your ethnicity, your age,whatever it may be, and can say,
okay, i can put you in a box,that all that goes, we have it.
That's important, of course,absolutely As clinicians, that's
important.
But knowing who you are iscritical to how I am going to
engage with you inrehabilitation, because those
journeys are different foreveryone.
I think it's the same in everysingle team member or employee.
(28:06):
I have, too, that if we can getthem to sort of wash away, to
shed the labels, shed the layersand just be you and be and feel
comfortable and risk it all andgo to that space of
vulnerability and share who youare.
I think it helps how I show upin terms of how I engage with
(28:26):
you.
Bobby LeFebre (28:27):
Absolutely.
What you're talking about istrust.
When you boil that all down,trust enables and empowers so
much.
You can't be who you are if youdon't really truly believe that
the person you're engaging withgenuinely understands that or
might have the emotionalintelligence to accept that.
(28:48):
I think that that is thefoundation of all good
relationships.
As cliche as that is, withouttrust, you really don't have
anything.
I think we need to focus onbuilding that in a genuine way.
If it's inauthentic, I thinkpeople know that too.
Authenticity is something thatI think is really really
(29:11):
important in developing theserelationships.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (29:14):
It's interesting.
you talk about trust inrelationships.
What I think I'm figuring outin this artist's journey is that
I also have to trust the medium.
I have to trust the medium andjust not feel like I have to
control it so much.
That's when the cool stuffhappens.
Translate that to workAbsolutely.
Bobby LeFebre (29:39):
I think it goes back to the process.
It's loving the idea thatthere's possibility.
There's possibility in material, there's possibility in people,
there's possibility in process.
That's what we do.
We put our hope in the ideathat there is something on the
other side of this.
(29:59):
We may not need to assign valueto that.
Whatever it is, may just be.
I think that we have a hardtime sometimes when we can't
clearly see the connectionbetween what's in front of us
and what will become of thatMany pieces in front of us.
sometimes you can't really seethe final product, but I think
that so much of leadership isthat as well.
(30:21):
It's taking a risk of takingthese multiple pieces and
creating something from thatthat may be new.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (30:30):
I think people struggle in that There's
this phrase that, when lost, anymap will do.
Bobby LeFebre (30:35):
How's that for creativity?
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (30:36):
The whole story about these soldiers
and I think, world War I whogot lost in the mountains and
were thought to have perished.
And then someone found in theirrucksack a map and they used
that map to navigate themselvesout of the snowstorm.
Back in the hospital someonelooked at the map.
It was a map of the Pyrenees,not the Alps or the other way
around, where they were.
(30:58):
This idea of sense making, whichdoes take a few things that I
think are part of the artist'sheart too, it's the creativity
to think about how do youcombine these disparate things
and make a narrative that makessense?
Bobby LeFebre (31:10):
You're not making cray-cray.
Don't make cray-cray.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (31:12):
Sure, sure, sure.
But to make sense out of athing, trusting the process
enough to take the risk and saywe're going to follow this
because when lost and when it'snot clear and often and that's
the other thing that livesbetween the poles is a whole lot
of ambiguity Somebody's got tobe the person who's willing to
take the risk and try to createan image, create a narrative or
(31:35):
a framing and then start to takethe steps.
Bobby LeFebre (31:38):
What came to mind when you said that is that
structure empowers freedom in alot of ways.
If you have a structure, evenif it's loose, and you follow
that, it will lead you somewhere.
If you are brave enough tofollow that through, there's
something on the other side.
But without it, poetry is verystructured When you think about
(32:02):
poetic device and form.
we're not just out here spewingbeautiful words.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (32:06):
Making words.
Bobby LeFebre (32:09):
We definitely do that.
But the craft of poetry isactually very structured.
That structure empowers thebeauty and the freedom that
people then often experience,But without the knowledge of
what it took to actually do that, it can be a very superficial
exchange.
You see the final product, youdon't see everything that went
(32:30):
into it, You don't see the hoursof contemplating one word
versus the next.
That process, I think, isreally really necessary in all
areas of our operation.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (32:43):
The other thing I think creativity
brings into our leadershipopportunities is the chance for
play.
It really begins to feel likeplay when you invite others in,
because I suspect outside ofwork we often use and leverage
(33:06):
creativity differently, butsomehow we think we're supposed
to leave that at the door whenwe step in.
Bobby LeFebre (33:11):
Well, that's the thing We need to integrate all
of these things more into ourlives, because we don't play
unless we take vacation.
We don't take vacation becausewe're too busy working and we're
afraid to go away from that.
If there's a way for us,especially again as leaders, to
incorporate these things intoour meetings, into our all
staffs, bring art and cultureand play and creativity into
(33:33):
those things and don't just makeit the icebreaker.
Maybe allow for an entire staffretreat for play.
When you have to explain thatto the folks that are giving you
money to do that, you tie thatto the idea that this is going
to create community.
It's going to allow for newways of seeing and being that.
(33:57):
are they going to energizepeople in a way that creates the
trust and the energy and themomentum to do the work in a way
that maybe is a littledifferent?
We don't center those thingsAgain.
they're viewed as whimsical asopposed to a way to
operationalize and harness thecreativity in service to our
(34:18):
work To the mission.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (34:19):
Yeah, i think that's my agenda around
next time and say the icebreakerwill be that work stuff and the
rest of the time, exactly, wedon't play.
Bobby LeFebre (34:26):
We can try.
We can try, maybe not all thetime, but that's one approach.
We can mix things up.
I think that that also, i think, is a revolutionary way of
seeing It's testing.
It may not work, but why nottry it?
Why not try it with people?
If it doesn't work, great, wecan collectively decide that
that doesn't work, but unless wetry it, we don't know what the
(34:47):
result's going to be.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (34:48):
One is a perfect and beautiful way to
end this time together.
My prayer for leaders is thatthey lose the fear of bringing
their whole selves in, becausewe do have a right way of
thinking and a left way ofthinking, and we desperately
need both, but in particular intoday's world, we need those
(35:08):
right-oriented thinkers to comein and boldly ask the question
what if?
So, thank you for what you doLike ask in the what if?
and all the other goodquestions that create community
and connection.
Bobby LeFebre (35:19):
Sure will Thank you very much.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (35:25):
Thank you, bobby.
I have lots of thoughts rightnow Probably the most resounding
one that I know that we asleaders need to really really
mess around in and swim aroundin, feel the discomfort of is
getting comfortable with the useof this thing.
That can feel elusive but, aswe've talked about, is really
(35:49):
part of how we were wired Andthat is this notion of using
creativity to drive some verydifferent outcomes.
Some of what I think are thegood things that can come from
that, the benefits that can comefrom that, is that it does have
the outcome or creates theopportunity for far more
inclusiveness and belonging.
(36:10):
Because if you think thateverybody who walks through your
walls are left-orientedthinkers or are predominantly
left-oriented thinkers, you'releaving a ton of potential on
the table.
You're leaving a ton ofpotential at the door and you
have people who walk into workand leave a significant portion
of who they are in their car oron the bus or on their bike.
(36:32):
And we need we desperately needthose ideas, we need that
energy, we need that passion tocome through the door.
So what do I think it takes asleaders, based on this beautiful
conversation, we just had toshow up that way.
I think it takes a redefinitionof risk.
I think it takes a willingnessto celebrate risk, to do
(36:55):
something which I learned manyyears ago as part of my own
creative journey, to celebratethe happy accident, to be able
to adapt when things don't.
And I've done it, which is whatwe are called to do as leaders
all day long, because there isso little predictability in our
work or in our world today.
(37:18):
I think people are hungry forworkplaces that are teeming with
that kind of vibrancy, and myrequest, or my hope for you who
are listening, is that you willtake that big leap into the
faith that the world can holdyou and can hold a leader who
shows up asking gigantic what ifquestions, are willing to sit
(37:43):
with the tension that it willimbue for sure, and truly have
the patience to say this is oneof those go slow to go fast
moments, to invest heavily inthe beginning of any endeavor
and to look at things throughmany, many lenses, to trust that
when you're in these ambiguouswaters which we are for sure now
(38:05):
and, frankly, at any givenepoch, always have been that any
map will do and you've gotgreat people around you
Creatives, left orientedstatisticians and analysts who
put together in a room can drawyou one heck of a map that could
take you places when you arewilling to risk it and be humble
and set aside ego and createmagic.
(38:29):
So thank you for spending timewith us today.
Beautiful opportunity to hangwith a truly beautiful soul, and
I think that's what makes theworld so special.
Welcome to Unstoppable at Craig, where
we pull back the curtain on whatmakes healthy workplace
cultures click and what happenswhen people are empowered to
expand the boundaries of what ispossible.
We'll explore the perspectivesof employees and leaders who
have carte blanche to speaktheir truths, tell their stories
and unlock uncommon ways ofapproaching challenges.
(00:27):
I'm Dr.
Jand el Allen- Davis, CEO andPresident of Craig Hospital, a
world-renowned rehabilitationhospital the and research of
patients with spinal cord andbrain injury.
Join me as we learn from peoplewho love what they do and what
happens when fear doesn't stifleinnovation.
(00:47):
It is so cool that we're heretoday getting to do this.
I'm almost giddy and giggly.
I'll try not to be.
Having this opportunity to talkwith Bobby LeFebre, who is a
recent friend, I would say,although I have known of your
(01:11):
work from afar for a long time,so it means a ton that you would
spend time with Craig, with me,today, talking about the whole
topic of creativity.
But this podcast is reallyfocused and created and
hopefully sharing some messagesof what it's like and what's
required of leaders in thisparticular epoch in which we
(01:33):
find ourselves, and so I havethe privilege and the
opportunity to think aboutleadership through a ton of
lenses and speak to peopleinside and outside of Craig On
any of a host of topics, and onefor sure, the minute we
launched this that I wanted tospend time talking about was the
importance of creativity in theworkplace.
So it just seemed super fittingin terms of understanding the
(01:57):
importance of creativity that Ihad a chance to talk with you.
Colorado's former ju st recentlycompleted your term as our poet
laureate which is an amazinghonor and in some ways, not
surprising, to me.
But back to the topic ofcreativity in organizations
today.
I ground this work in a lot ofways in Daniel Pink's A Whole
(02:21):
New Mind, where he talked aboutand puts forth the notion that
we've solved effectively theeasy stuff in our planet.
I like to say.
we can get food from one sideof the world to the other.
For the most part, water isclean and we know how to clean
it, even in the places where itisn't.
You know, we can fly planes tocrazy places.
(02:43):
We've done all the technicalstuff.
The hard societal,organizational, structural
components of how our worldworks requires a different way
of thinking, and that's whatPink talks about, this notion of
the whole new mind is thatwe're in a very complex world
that's going to take a differentsort of approach and way of
thinking about it, and I thinkcreativity has a super important
(03:06):
role to play.
Bobby LeFebre (03:07):
Absolutely, and creativity is really all we know
.
It's been a, as you said, atool, i think, throughout human
history to move us forward in somany different ways.
It's something that haspropelled us into new ways of
being, new ways of thinking, and, when I think about it, without
(03:28):
that process we would not becontinuing to evolve and change
and grow, and so I do think it'sa foundational element to our
humaneness our ability to takein, analyze and then put out,
And I think that that's thatprocess you know, both
(03:48):
artistically, talking aboutleadership, or even just you
know, living in this world thatwe are in every single day.
We utilize it, whether or not weare conscious of it or not
constantly processing,constantly analyzing and then
creating something from that,And I think that that's
something that I value andreally, really love about who we
(04:10):
are and how we do.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (04:11):
Yeah, i love that you just brought it
out to say that, and we ought totalk at some point about how we
beat that notion of creativity,through the narrow lens of how
we think about it, out of kidsat an early age and how in the
workplace we make it sound likethis weird fluffy stuff as
opposed to taking a step backand saying, no, this is who we
(04:33):
are.
As I think about creativity andinnovation, I find myself
thinking about how does?
posing the question, what, if?
how we get what we get, how wegrow what we grow, how we do
what we do and how we haveevolved over time?
Bobby LeFebre (04:47):
I think that question.
You know what if the root ofthat is curiosity And I think,
when we stop thinking in a waythat is curious and we stop
behaving in a way that's curious, we find ourselves stagnant and
we can't grow, we can't move,we can't innovate in a place of
stagnation.
And so when I think about whatit means to be curious, there's
(05:08):
an activeness attached to that.
When we're curious, we'rehungry for new ways of looking
at things, of interrogating whowe are, how we are and why, and
that's not just the personal butthe collective.
We have to ask that, thosequestions of ourselves.
But we also have to ask thosequestions about societies and
systems and institutions andepistemologies and ways of
(05:32):
knowing and being.
Because when we stop beingcurious, when we stop thinking
about what, if what is, we losesight of that visionary aspect
of our being, and I think thatit's applicable to every aspect
of life.
You know, and I try to look atthe world, to curiousize every
single day, whether that'sthrough my artistic practice or
(05:54):
my work in human services or myactivism or my advocacy for arts
and culture, cultural identity.
All of these things have to bereimagined And imagination is
the vehicle by which we get tothose things, and if we don't
activate those things, we'rejust boring.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (06:13):
What's been in the way or what is in
the way in organizations and inleadership.
That beats the creativity out.
Bobby LeFebre (06:23):
Yeah, we have a very binary way of looking at
things in this world,unfortunately, and it's either
this or that all the time, andall of the fun stuff lives in
the middle of those two things.
And so I think that's part ofthe issue is the business world,
leadership world.
Often we look at things likecreativity as not important.
(06:44):
It's that old cliche of whatyou're looking for is what
you'll see, and so if we're notlooking to be in this space of
growth and with the growthmindset, we're not going to see
those things.
And so I think that that's partof the issue is we have to
change the lens by which we lookat everything, or just
recognize that this iscreativity, this is art in
(07:06):
action.
The ways in which leaders canengage with their communities is
, i think, one of collaboration,and I think that good leaders
understand that, they understandcommunication, they're not
afraid to explore, they're notafraid to learn from folks.
I think if we look atleadership in a more circular
(07:27):
way as opposed to a hierarchicalone, that collaboration, that
influence really disrupts thesearchaic ways of thinking and
doing and being, and the morethat we can do that, i think,
the better we'll be.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (07:42):
You know , the part that I will tie over
my leadership journey that Ifound most frustrating is the
inability to slow down to allowfor the creative process to play
out.
I loved what you said aboutthis binary, the either or.
One of my favorites saying islife is lived in the gray.
We actually don't live at the,at these other sorts of at the
(08:05):
polls.
Life is lived in the gray and itis the fun part, but it
requires leaders to be OK withthat.
How do you think America or theworld or organizations arrived
at this sort of shore of youknow goals that have to be done
(08:25):
in a year, or you know thequarterly earnings or these
sorts of things which have thisvery linear, have linear
implications but actually, oranything but.
Bobby LeFebre (08:36):
Yeah, i mean, i think there's multiple things
that come to mind right.
One is like the inevitabilityof the world that we live in,
the systems and institutionsthat guide us, everything from
you know, the global to thingslike capitalism, that teach us,
you know, certain ways of kindof showing up in the world, and
I think sometimes we don'tquestion where we're headed
(08:59):
until it's too late.
You know, we get to a pointwhere paradigms are built and
you know, systems are sort of inplace and there's no
questioning and we just kind ofmove along with that.
And that's one thing that Ithink creative people always do
is we always ask questions.
And I think question asking isthe, you know, the basis of all
(09:20):
forward movement, because we'realways, we're never happy.
We're never happy where we'reat, and it's not a bad thing.
We're always just lookingforward to what's possible.
So I think that we get ahead ofourselves sometimes and without
folks questioning that statusquo, things move and they don't
change, and I think that that'sthe primary focus of creative
(09:41):
people and artists.
Really, i think artists, ithink the professional world can
learn a lot from the way theartists move, because we're
always disrupting, you know,those things that are getting in
the way of the potential thatwe can harness if we just give
ourselves the opportunity to seethose things.
And I do believe that anyonecan be an artist, anybody can
(10:03):
create art, but I don't believethat everyone necessarily has
the eyes of the heart or thespirit of a poet, and that thing
is something that I think canbe nurtured and developed.
But I think that there'sopportunity to again harness a
collective approach to how weare, inclusive of what
leadership practices might looklike, and we need the super
(10:25):
analytic folks analytical folksto really balance out the
creative nature of folks thatare just more concerned with
generating ideas.
And there's a place in themiddle that I think innovation
happens And I think that folkscan be both.
I think that the artist and thecultural worker, and the
creative can also trainthemselves into a more
(10:48):
regimented state of being And Ithink that that balance actually
creates a lot of hope and a lotof balance where we're not
always looked at as sort ofthese loose cannons that are
just kind of out and about.
Artists are actually verydisciplined, whether that's
recognized or not.
Creative people are verydisciplined, but I do believe
that, as a leader, if we canmodel those things as leaders,
(11:12):
it empowers the folks that we'releading to adopt those
approaches to things, and that'swhere the growth happens,
that's where the synergy happens, that's where the ideas come
from, is when you can be excitedin a room of people with
different ideas and approachesto leadership or approaches to
getting the work done.
I really do believe that everyperson is a word in a sentence
(11:36):
and that sentence createsmeaning, and that meaning is
derived from including differentways of being, and that's
really, really important.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (11:46):
So I know that, in addition to your
incredible artistry and I willuse it that way you too have
another job.
How do you pull creativity intoyour work at the Department of
Human Services in Denver?
Bobby LeFebre (11:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's important.
Our work, we work with the mostvulnerable folks in the city
And we have a team of folks thatare out in community every day
connecting with folks, providingresource navigation, and we
work with immigrant and refugeecommunities, we work with
(12:19):
veteran communities, We workwith the most marginalized in
the city, and so, to understandwhat it takes to reach those
folks, it creates an environmentwhere we have to ask big
questions and we have to cometogether to figure out what the
need is.
And some of that is arecognition of where we've been
And everything changes all thetime, and I think that that's
(12:42):
part of it is being nimble Andwe have to understand that new
ideas are.
It's paramount in the work thatwe do understanding what is
happening.
What is research telling us?
How do we combine what we'reseeing and what we're feeling
with what we know and createthose environments and worlds
(13:04):
for better ways?
And so for me, i think of againthe collaborative approach.
For me is where the magic lives, when we're able to sit at a
table and hear diverseperspectives and then create
something from that that iseither a policy, a procedure, a
way forward, when people can seetheir own voice in that
(13:26):
authorship.
It empowers people to continueto communicate with you, to open
up lines of communication.
And again, i think sometimes wevalue hierarchy a little bit
too much and we don't valuecollective thinking.
We don't value collectivebrainstorming, and some of the
most, i would say, progressiveways of implementing new things
(13:51):
have come from that creativeprocess of brainstorming.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (13:55):
You know , what's interesting about what
you said is I can remember yearsago, through my beginning
stages, go back to the late 90s,moving from a quilter to a
quilt artist and then doingfiber art and joining a critique
group, and there's somethingcollectively beautiful about
(14:16):
sitting at a table, as much asyou're saying, and you bring
your work First of all.
it's kind of like there's somevulnerability to saying, hey,
what do you think?
And having the opportunity tosee how it hits people, how they
respond, what they feel like.
boy, well, you're inviting meinto a conversation that has
real applicability to exactlywhat you're saying in terms of
how organizations can not justthrive but can grow and evolve.
(14:38):
So the requirements, as anartist, to actually put your
stuff out there how do younavigate that and why is that
important?
Bobby LeFebre (14:48):
The way I see it is, we have an opportunity to
influence what values are, whatour values are, and through
these questions and this processof exploration, i think that
that's what it is.
It's culture.
It's culture and world building.
If we can do that, if we cancreate culture and create a
(15:09):
world that we are comfortableliving inside of, that also
shows others who may havedifferent ideas of what that
looks like, that.
Hey, this approach may besomething I'm not comfortable
with, but it's actually working,and I think that people that
live in an environment of wheretesting something out is a value
, where failure may also be avalue, that it's okay, that
(15:33):
we're not going to win all thetime.
We're going to get it wrongsometimes.
Let's celebrate some of those.
Yes, and how do we come backfrom that?
Do we sulk in it and do we livein that for so long that that
becomes the norm, or do we getback up, ask new questions?
try new things and employ againcreativity to usher us into the
(15:54):
next phase of whatever thatlooks like.
So I think so much of what Itry to impart on the folks that
I am in charge of leading is Howdo we create agreements and how
do those agreements lead tovalues and how do we live those
values and how does that thenmove into the mission and vision
for the agency and theorganization.
All of those things areconnected And so how do we
(16:16):
influence those things?
and realizing that it shouldalways be a work in progress, we
should always be moving andchanging and thinking
differently, and it's okay ifour strategic plan changes and
it's okay if our approachchanges and it's okay if our
leadership changes.
But the work needs to be rootedin who we're serving and how we
ultimately get to those places.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (16:38):
You know , the thing that hit me as you
were talking is the idea ofhappy accidents and risk taking,
not as something that's scary,but imagine waking up in the
morning saying I'm gonna risksome stuff today And viewing
that through the other side ofthe coin, which is that's how
you grow And that's also how youdevelop resilience, both as
(17:02):
individuals or as organizations.
Bobby LeFebre (17:05):
I think sometimes we focus on the results far too
much as opposed to the process.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (17:09):
Sorry, and that's the CEO saying that.
Bobby LeFebre (17:10):
Absolutely, you know the process again.
The gray area going backprocess is gray area right.
And I think, if we're not soresults driven, if we employ
more of an emergent process, theidea that something requires
pressure, that conflict is notnecessarily a bad thing.
right, conflict can be thisbeautiful garden that we grow
(17:31):
things in.
it doesn't have to be a war.
A conflict can be the placewhere, you know, new ideas
emerge And if we just allowourselves to live in that space
of a more emergent way, we cansurprise ourselves and we can
keep our minds open to the waysin which the left and the right
brain work in tandem to solveour most complex issues.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (17:54):
Yeah, You know, it's also interesting
to think about just a tiny story, how I even came to know that I
could, quote, do art.
It was just a very simplestatement that had a actually a
black women's retreat isattending and a woman who had
thrown all of the Wall Streetstuff away and gone to do her
(18:14):
particular form of art.
I was looking at her masks andshe said why did you choose
those?
I said, well, I make quilts,but the quilts are your quilts,
But what people talk about isthe color.
And she said you're an artist.
I mean, we should be doing thatin our organizations, because
you just never know what's thatone word.
You're an artist, or I'm goingto call you.
(18:35):
Just say yes, taking the riskand showing somebody that person
who is, quote, frontline ormiddle management, as opposed to
thinking we have to have allthe answers.
It seems to me and hearing youtalk that there's this way that
you pull communities together.
There's not this sense thateverybody has to have suits and
ties and degrees, Even withinyour team.
(18:57):
Everybody has the opportunityto have voice heard.
Bobby LeFebre (19:00):
Absolutely, And I think that one of the things I
struggle with most is like newconversations of folks, whether
that's in a personal way or in aprofessional way, in an
artistic way, because when wemeet people for the first time,
one of the first questions weask is so what do you do?
And I really I start to sweatwhen that question happens
because I don't want tomonopolize time, But I think
(19:20):
that one thing in theprofessional space that we often
get wrong is the fact that weare only our titles or we are
only jobs are we are complicatedhuman beings who have diverse
interests in multiple things,and so when I introduce myself I
try to open that space up ofsaying yes, i'm a director, or
(19:41):
yes, i'm a poet, yes, i'm this.
However, all of those thingsmake up who I am, so it's hard.
So when I introduce myself,often I'll say I'm a writer,
performer and cultural worker,and then I'll go and sort of sub
, you know include what thatmeans, you know as a writer, i'm
a poet, i'm a playwright.
As a performer, I'm an actor.
As a cultural worker, i work inhuman services.
(20:02):
I do all these things Because Ithink if we could start to
change the ways in which weintroduce ourselves, the ways in
which we claim who we are inour wholeness and our complete
complexity, as opposed to talkabout our titles or a place of
work, you know, it's notnecessarily like who are we?
Who are we really, how do youexplain yourself to someone
(20:25):
according to the things that you, that energize you, that make
you who you are?
right, i hosted a dinner seriesaround radical imagination And
the first question that I askedas part of that series was who
are you, what is your work andwho are your people?
And I really wanted to get atlike who are you really Like
(20:45):
when I was your title, what isyour job?
But like, who are you at yourcore?
How do you see yourself?
What makes you you?
What is your work?
I think is is a better questionthan what do you do, or you
know, what is your profession,because your work can be
multiple things.
It can be your your job, it canbe your creative work, it could
be your community work, But Ithink the idea of what is your
(21:06):
work and and how, having inphrasing that in a way that
makes people think about itdifferently is interesting.
And then you know who are yourpeople, not necessarily like
family or whatever, but who doyou see as your community?
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (21:19):
And h hat tmpact mpact ithat
Bobby LeFebre (21:23):
And how does that impact who you are and how you
show up?
and what are the values of thatcommunity And how does And make
you who you are?
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (21:28):
You know , it's something that is just
even four and a half years in it.
Craig still astounds me almostdaily, and that's not.
dramatic is how we meet ourpatients where they are.
whoever the we's are, itdoesn't have to just be people
in therapy, could be me, be mewalking through the halls and
just saying hello.
(21:48):
And in ways that sometimes arevery deliberate, but most of the
time we're just sort of part ofthe vibe here to say what if,
based on who you are, who youare, who are your people, what
do you do Not do?
but sometimes, what do you doBecause?
it is important from alivelihood perspective, and then
to adapt our response to thatcall in a way that serves the
(22:11):
mission of rehabilitation.
It's just, it's it.
Bobby LeFebre (22:13):
This place is, it's like creativity, every home
Absolutely, and I think onething about that process that
you're outlining, i think, themost important part of that.
I think sometimes especiallybecause we use that phrase in
human services a lot too insocial work we meet people where
they are, but sometimes we makeassumptions about where people
are without asking them wherethey're actually at, and so the
(22:34):
conversation that needs tohappen with that is I have,
maybe, a data, informedperspective of who you are and
where you are, but I would loveto hear directly from you as to
where you really are, so that Ican meet you there.
As far as what my job is toinvolve you in that conversation
or to provide you with whateverit is that we are doing And so
(22:57):
I think that that it's basicconversations, and I think we've
actually gone away with that.
I think we as a society, we are, we're pulling away from one
another, and and you know, someof that is social and societal
and some of that is, you know,circumstance.
We just, i won't say we'rethrough a global pandemic, but
we experienced one, and thatdefinitely changed the way that
(23:17):
we interact with one another.
It changed our proximity to oneanother, it changed the way
that we see ourselves and thepeople around us, and I think
that we need to get back to someof those very simple human ways
of interacting with one another, conversing with one another,
getting to know one another, and, as a leader, that's one thing
that I really try to do.
You know, i want to know all ofthe people that I work with.
(23:39):
I want to know, you know, notonly what they do in their, in
their, in their work, but likewhat drives them outside of that
, because the more I understandthat, the better I can support
them in times of need.
I could not agree with you morethat we are impatient We've.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (23:56):
There's something with the way that
we've organized, the way thatwe're working, the notion of
time.
We've lost the ability to thinkabout context, which I will
tell you back to this notion ofinclusion and belonging.
There are people on this planetwho are just context rich
people.
There are cultures that arecontext rich And then there are
(24:16):
ones remember here a culturalanthropologist talk about this
some years ago based on growingseasons and things like that,
that you don't have the time todo that kind of sitting around
talking things.
And these are the things thatthen, in a lot of ways, have
spawned the kinds of approachesin sort of modern business, to
the way we do things.
And I know I personally, as aleader, i know I can drive some
(24:38):
people crazy because I am acontext rich person.
I need to understand what I'mswimming in in order to know how
to help and to facilitate howwe swim out or swim better in
that context.
Bobby LeFebre (24:52):
I was in New York and I was hanging out with a
friend of mine who's an actorand I started my creative
pursuits as an actor as well,and one thing that you do as an
actor is you're constantlyobserving.
You're waiting in line for yourfood somewhere and you're
looking at the way that theperson making your hot dog is
moving and how they have aroutine down and how they move
(25:14):
and you kind of file that intoyour toolbox of characters.
And I think that one thing whenI'm hearing you talk about this
thing is we're such anindividualistic culture and that
plays in the ways in which timewe operate in time.
When you catch up with someonefor the first time in a long
(25:35):
time, you ask them how they are.
First thing they tell you isI'm busy, i'm busy, i'm so busy,
i'm good, i'm busy, busy That'swhat we say.
But what are we doing in thatbusyness And creativity needs?
you need time to be creative.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (25:48):
It needs to be creative.
You need time.
Bobby LeFebre (25:49):
You know and I think that that's part of my
leadership journey has alsotaught me that if I am
constantly moving and I don'ttake time to connect with people
or to think or to analyze, i'malso modeling a behavior that
the folks that are I'm in chargeof leading are going to adopt,
(26:11):
and, before you know it, we'reall going to be so busy We're
not going to take time toconnect And there's a disconnect
that happens in that.
And so I think that, if we areable to, it's fine to be busy,
if it's on purpose, if it'spurposeful, if we have a plan
right, if we have ideas abouthow we're spending our time and
(26:31):
ensuring that we're maximizingthat, as opposed to just being
busy for busy's sake, becausethat's a it's not helpful.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (26:38):
Yeah, it's not helpful, it's become
this crazy badge of honor.
I wanted to go back to thenotion of really saying who are
you.
It's another thing that is soinherent in what happens at
Craig, because when our patientsand families arrive at the door
ready to start this nextchapter of this journey, that is
(26:58):
a true right or left turn intheir life's walk, literally in
some cases.
There's a vulnerability thatit's almost like all of the sort
of illusions or the masks orthings that you might put, you
might wear in your day to dayare gone when you find that
(27:19):
mobility is different or yourability to think are different.
And so there's this realshedding of the skins and the
layers that allow us to reallyfigure out how, to quote, meet
people where they are.
And, as you were saying thatthing about meeting people where
they are, where we often do itbased on you know the typical
things.
I can look at your size, yourweight, your height, your race,
(27:41):
your ethnicity, your age,whatever it may be, and can say,
okay, i can put you in a box,that all that goes, we have it.
That's important, of course,absolutely As clinicians, that's
important.
But knowing who you are iscritical to how I am going to
engage with you inrehabilitation, because those
journeys are different foreveryone.
I think it's the same in everysingle team member or employee.
(28:06):
I have, too, that if we can getthem to sort of wash away, to
shed the labels, shed the layersand just be you and be and feel
comfortable and risk it all andgo to that space of
vulnerability and share who youare.
I think it helps how I show upin terms of how I engage with
(28:26):
you.
Bobby LeFebre (28:27):
Absolutely.
What you're talking about istrust.
When you boil that all down,trust enables and empowers so
much.
You can't be who you are if youdon't really truly believe that
the person you're engaging withgenuinely understands that or
might have the emotionalintelligence to accept that.
(28:48):
I think that that is thefoundation of all good
relationships.
As cliche as that is, withouttrust, you really don't have
anything.
I think we need to focus onbuilding that in a genuine way.
If it's inauthentic, I thinkpeople know that too.
Authenticity is something thatI think is really really
(29:11):
important in developing theserelationships.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (29:14):
It's interesting.
you talk about trust inrelationships.
What I think I'm figuring outin this artist's journey is that
I also have to trust the medium.
I have to trust the medium andjust not feel like I have to
control it so much.
That's when the cool stuffhappens.
Translate that to workAbsolutely.
Bobby LeFebre (29:39):
I think it goes back to the process.
It's loving the idea thatthere's possibility.
There's possibility in material, there's possibility in people,
there's possibility in process.
That's what we do.
We put our hope in the ideathat there is something on the
other side of this.
(29:59):
We may not need to assign valueto that.
Whatever it is, may just be.
I think that we have a hardtime sometimes when we can't
clearly see the connectionbetween what's in front of us
and what will become of thatMany pieces in front of us.
sometimes you can't really seethe final product, but I think
that so much of leadership isthat as well.
(30:21):
It's taking a risk of takingthese multiple pieces and
creating something from thatthat may be new.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (30:30):
I think people struggle in that There's
this phrase that, when lost, anymap will do.
Bobby LeFebre (30:35):
How's that for creativity?
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (30:36):
The whole story about these soldiers
and I think, world War I whogot lost in the mountains and
were thought to have perished.
And then someone found in theirrucksack a map and they used
that map to navigate themselvesout of the snowstorm.
Back in the hospital someonelooked at the map.
It was a map of the Pyrenees,not the Alps or the other way
around, where they were.
(30:58):
This idea of sense making, whichdoes take a few things that I
think are part of the artist'sheart too, it's the creativity
to think about how do youcombine these disparate things
and make a narrative that makessense?
Bobby LeFebre (31:10):
You're not making cray-cray.
Don't make cray-cray.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (31:12):
Sure, sure, sure.
But to make sense out of athing, trusting the process
enough to take the risk and saywe're going to follow this
because when lost and when it'snot clear and often and that's
the other thing that livesbetween the poles is a whole lot
of ambiguity Somebody's got tobe the person who's willing to
take the risk and try to createan image, create a narrative or
(31:35):
a framing and then start to takethe steps.
Bobby LeFebre (31:38):
What came to mind when you said that is that
structure empowers freedom in alot of ways.
If you have a structure, evenif it's loose, and you follow
that, it will lead you somewhere.
If you are brave enough tofollow that through, there's
something on the other side.
But without it, poetry is verystructured When you think about
(32:02):
poetic device and form.
we're not just out here spewingbeautiful words.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (32:06):
Making words.
Bobby LeFebre (32:09):
We definitely do that.
But the craft of poetry isactually very structured.
That structure empowers thebeauty and the freedom that
people then often experience,But without the knowledge of
what it took to actually do that, it can be a very superficial
exchange.
You see the final product, youdon't see everything that went
(32:30):
into it, You don't see the hoursof contemplating one word
versus the next.
That process, I think, isreally really necessary in all
areas of our operation.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (32:43):
The other thing I think creativity
brings into our leadershipopportunities is the chance for
play.
It really begins to feel likeplay when you invite others in,
because I suspect outside ofwork we often use and leverage
(33:06):
creativity differently, butsomehow we think we're supposed
to leave that at the door whenwe step in.
Bobby LeFebre (33:11):
Well, that's the thing We need to integrate all
of these things more into ourlives, because we don't play
unless we take vacation.
We don't take vacation becausewe're too busy working and we're
afraid to go away from that.
If there's a way for us,especially again as leaders, to
incorporate these things intoour meetings, into our all
staffs, bring art and cultureand play and creativity into
(33:33):
those things and don't just makeit the icebreaker.
Maybe allow for an entire staffretreat for play.
When you have to explain thatto the folks that are giving you
money to do that, you tie thatto the idea that this is going
to create community.
It's going to allow for newways of seeing and being that.
(33:57):
are they going to energizepeople in a way that creates the
trust and the energy and themomentum to do the work in a way
that maybe is a littledifferent?
We don't center those thingsAgain.
they're viewed as whimsical asopposed to a way to
operationalize and harness thecreativity in service to our
(34:18):
work To the mission.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (34:19):
Yeah, i think that's my agenda around
next time and say the icebreakerwill be that work stuff and the
rest of the time, exactly, wedon't play.
Bobby LeFebre (34:26):
We can try.
We can try, maybe not all thetime, but that's one approach.
We can mix things up.
I think that that also, i think, is a revolutionary way of
seeing It's testing.
It may not work, but why nottry it?
Why not try it with people?
If it doesn't work, great, wecan collectively decide that
that doesn't work, but unless wetry it, we don't know what the
(34:47):
result's going to be.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (34:48):
One is a perfect and beautiful way to
end this time together.
My prayer for leaders is thatthey lose the fear of bringing
their whole selves in, becausewe do have a right way of
thinking and a left way ofthinking, and we desperately
need both, but in particular intoday's world, we need those
(35:08):
right-oriented thinkers to comein and boldly ask the question
what if?
So, thank you for what you doLike ask in the what if?
and all the other goodquestions that create community
and connection.
Bobby LeFebre (35:19):
Sure will Thank you very much.
Jandel Allen-Davis, MD (35:25):
Thank you, bobby.
I have lots of thoughts rightnow Probably the most resounding
one that I know that we asleaders need to really really
mess around in and swim aroundin, feel the discomfort of is
getting comfortable with the useof this thing.
That can feel elusive but, aswe've talked about, is really
(35:49):
part of how we were wired Andthat is this notion of using
creativity to drive some verydifferent outcomes.
Some of what I think are thegood things that can come from
that, the benefits that can comefrom that, is that it does have
the outcome or creates theopportunity for far more
inclusiveness and belonging.
(36:10):
Because if you think thateverybody who walks through your
walls are left-orientedthinkers or are predominantly
left-oriented thinkers, you'releaving a ton of potential on
the table.
You're leaving a ton ofpotential at the door and you
have people who walk into workand leave a significant portion
of who they are in their car oron the bus or on their bike.
(36:32):
And we need we desperately needthose ideas, we need that
energy, we need that passion tocome through the door.
So what do I think it takes asleaders, based on this beautiful
conversation, we just had toshow up that way.
I think it takes a redefinitionof risk.
I think it takes a willingnessto celebrate risk, to do
(36:55):
something which I learned manyyears ago as part of my own
creative journey, to celebratethe happy accident, to be able
to adapt when things don't.
And I've done it, which is whatwe are called to do as leaders
all day long, because there isso little predictability in our
work or in our world today.
(37:18):
I think people are hungry forworkplaces that are teeming with
that kind of vibrancy, and myrequest, or my hope for you who
are listening, is that you willtake that big leap into the
faith that the world can holdyou and can hold a leader who
shows up asking gigantic what ifquestions, are willing to sit
(37:43):
with the tension that it willimbue for sure, and truly have
the patience to say this is oneof those go slow to go fast
moments, to invest heavily inthe beginning of any endeavor
and to look at things throughmany, many lenses, to trust that
when you're in these ambiguouswaters which we are for sure now
(38:05):
and, frankly, at any givenepoch, always have been that any
map will do and you've gotgreat people around you
Creatives, left orientedstatisticians and analysts who
put together in a room can drawyou one heck of a map that could
take you places when you arewilling to risk it and be humble
and set aside ego and createmagic.
(38:29):
So thank you for spending timewith us today.
Beautiful opportunity to hangwith a truly beautiful soul, and
I think that's what makes theworld so special.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.