Embark on an intimate exploration of healing and spirituality as we sit down with Dr. Alex Feng, a Taoist priest and traditional Chinese medicine doctor. His life, woven with threads of ancient wisdom and transformative personal experiences, unfolds to reveal a tapestry of profound insights. From his early days, cured of asthma through Qigong, to his evolution into a doctor, Dr. Feng's narrative bridges the gap between the mystical underpinnings of Taoism and the grounded practices of TCM.
Delve into the heart of healing with Dr. Feng, as he recounts the early days when practicing traditional Chinese medicine in California when it was actually illegal. Learn his journey from one of the first acupuncturists licensed in the state to a pillar of Eastern wisdom.
Dr. Feng's storied experiences illuminate not only the philosophical aspects of Taoism and meditation but also the essential human element in the art of healing. His stories pull back the veil on the delicate balance of energy and presence that a practitioner must master.
Closing our interview, we reflect on the vast landscape of medical traditions, what conventional medicine really is, and his stories and hidden teachings found everywhere from the markets of Hong Kong to the serene movements of Qigong.
Dr. Feng, through his workshops and teachings, ushers in a blend of learning methods, inviting you to discover the meditative harmony within Gong sounds or the fluid grace of Tai Chi. Join us as we traverse the dynamic interplay of learning, meditating, and finding stillness, guided by a master who embodies the wisdom of an ancient practice in our modern world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the podcast Medicine Untold and come
with me on a journey to theunexplored side of medicine,
where we speak with rebeldoctors, radical herbalists,
unorthodox healers and patientswho have healed themselves.
Explore the intersectionbetween science and spirituality
and discover the power withinyou.
(00:26):
I'm your host, Dr MichelleBerklin, licensed naturopathic
doctor, botanical outcomeist andpracticing physician.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome everyone.
Today we have a guest.
We have Dr Alex Fang.
So thank you very much, dr Fang, for joining us, and I'll go
ahead and read a little bitabout your background.
Dr Alex Fang is a Taoist priest,medical, qigong grandmaster,
traditional Chinese medicinephysician, acupuncturist,
(00:59):
herbalist and feng shui master.
He was born in China, where hewas immersed in the three
pillars of Taoism physicalstrength and well-being, healing
and spiritual development.
Dr Fang was trained by hisfather, dr Wei Ren Fang, a
well-known scholar and spiritualleader who descended from a
long lineage of Taoistphilosophers, scholars and
(01:20):
healers.
He was ordained in Z Taoism inthe 1970s.
After immigrating to the UnitedStates, dr Fang continued his
studies in Taoism and martialarts, focusing on both his
physical and spiritualdevelopment.
Dr Fang studied at UC Berkeleyand the New College of San
Francisco.
Then he graduated with hisdoctorate in Oriental Medicine
(01:41):
and PhD from Samra University inLos Angeles, and he became one
of the first practitioners to belicensed when acupuncture was
legalized in California in 1976.
Today he is the founder of theClinic for Traditional Chinese
Medicine in Berkeley, california.
Dr Fang and his wife alsofounded the Z Tao Guan Taoist
(02:02):
Center in Oakland, california,which is the first major center
devoted to Taoist arts in theBay Area.
Welcome today, and the firstquestion I have for you kind of
goes into how this journey beganfor you.
So it seems as though thisjourney began for you at a young
age, when you were eight, andso can you tell us more about
(02:26):
the experience you had at thisage that kind of helped define
your life path?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I love that question.
So age seven, eight, eight, wasafflicted with severe asthma.
I was missing school threemonths to six months at a time.
So one day I picked up a bookon Qibong.
I read the book and actuallyrealized how to do Qibong cured
(02:56):
myself of asthma at age eight.
So I said if I can do it, thenthey change.
Anybody can do this.
So that's a life-changing partof my life is that if you have
intuition and you have awillingness to dive into
knowledge of yourself, you canmake changes.
One important piece of my lifeis that I was climbing a
(03:21):
mountain in Taiwan, where I grewup, and I was sitting there
looking at the sky, looking atthe earth, saying to myself what
am I doing here?
Why am I here on this thingbetween heaven and earth?
Who am I?
What am I?
What am I doing?
And at the same moment I lookedacross the mountain there's a
(03:42):
Buddhist temple and there ischanting going on, there's smoke
coming out of the temple, andimmediately realized that moment
ah, that's why I'm here.
So those are the two componentsof my life that mold me into
who I am.
My parents were my mother'sGerman, my father's Chinese, so
(04:06):
it's a cross-culturalenvironment.
Where I grew up, we spoke manylanguages and my father was
definitely a Taoist.
My mother was a Christian.
She took me to Protestantchurch, catholic church, to
Taoist temple.
So, like this is whatspirituality may look like, what
(04:29):
is it that you want?
So it puts me on the path ofdiscovery what is spirituality,
what is my spirituality?
And my father said somethingthat's really unique, that
influenced my life.
He said that God in your heartis your God.
(04:49):
Oh, that's the beginning storyof my life, and I realized at a
very young age my mother was ahealer, my father was a healer
of a different sort.
My mother was a physical healer, my father was a spiritual
healer.
So I grew up with thatenvironment around me and both
of them were professors in theuniversity, so I learned how to
teach and learn how to learn.
(05:12):
I was a terrible studentbecause when they tried to cram
things into you, it just didn'tmake sense.
You have to allow feelings andthinking to come out from the
individual, you have to draw itfrom the individual and we
become who we are through that,not through implant, implant,
implant.
So, briefly, that's my history.
(05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
What an interesting childhood too.
You had all these differentinfluences, but not having
everything pushed on you.
You really found your path yourown way and you knew it.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It is because so much was pushed on me.
I had to survive that to findmy way.
Pressure is not a bad thing,it's just temporary.
You have to realize it is whatwe call gates that you've got to
go through.
In many cases we have to gothrough emotional gates,
hereditary gates, physical gates, intellectual gates, so on and
(06:11):
so forth.
We have to go through thesegates to realize who am I and
the mist of all of that, yeah,very true.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, the next question I have is kind of it's
hard to put in words and Daoismhas a really special place in my
heart too, but I know this isgoing to be a difficult question
.
Can you tell our audience kindof the philosophy of Daoism and
really what it is for peoplethat have never really heard of
(06:43):
it before or might just know alittle bit about it?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Okay, two aspects.
Number one when Confucius wentto.
Laozi, who was like the head ofDaoism knowledge and lineage.
He says what's Daoism?
And Laozi said.
Confucius asks again so what isDaoism?
(07:11):
Laozi once again replied insilence so it is.
You know, the first chapter ofDaoism.
Dao Dajin says that which canbe spoken is not definitively
what is.
So.
Words are not explained the wayyou like what you do, your
(07:36):
relationship with your husband,your feeling for him passing
doing what you're doing now noneof that can be expressed.
It would take too long.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So it is a feeling, it is a present that you
recognize what Daoism is.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Another aspect the character Dao, the radical Dao,
in Chinese is written as selfthat moves in harmony, or
transcendence of Yin and Yang.
Alpha Divert is a Self, theSelf.
(08:15):
We have a dragon tail that runsnext to the Self meaning
movement.
Movement and the dragon alsorepresent transformation.
The Self that moves intransformation comes to a place
of understanding two componentsIf you are in harmony, you are
(08:40):
in doubt, or you are able totranscend even harmony.
You become understanding of Yinand Yang, is or is not.
So the Self that moves inharmony, or transcendence of
differences, is in the space ofdoubt.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Very well said for something that's hard to say.
Moving on to the next question,can you explain what the three
pillars of Taoism are too?
The?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
what.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
The three pillars.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Well, three pillars, eight pillars, five pillars, two
pillars.
These are just references.
You can choose any pillars youlike.
They become your three pillars.
So at some point I must havesaid something about spirit,
body, well-being, healing.
(09:42):
All those are pillars.
So Buddhist have pillars,christians have pillars,
thousands of pillars.
Those are academics.
You can choose anything youlike for your essence.
We say there are threetreasures.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
The three treasures are your essence your energy and
your spirit.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
So cultivate those and you have your three pillars.
Or you have avenues in yourlife that you can cultivate.
You can cultivate your energy,health.
You can cultivate your essence,essence, essence.
What is your essence?
So that takes a little while,it's just oh, it is my essence
(10:27):
anyway.
And then your spirit.
Spirit can some people say themind, some people say it's
beyond the mind.
The mind can keep you like amonkey very busy.
Beyond the mind, you have todiscover who you are, where you
are, what you are, whatever.
This consciousness is all aboutWuji.
(10:52):
That was the foundation ofnothingness.
A great, great, great boy,great nothingness.
Some people call it a blackhole.
You go in and disappear orwhatever.
You transform into somethingelse and from Wuji you have a
consciousness that you haveawareness.
Ah, I am in nothing, I amnothing.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Everything is nothing .
Speaker 3 (11:13):
That awareness separates you from nothing.
You are now having a youngdifferences you and me, space,
time, colors, age, sex, whateverDifferences.
A differences is relative.
If you call this young, thenthis is you.
If you call this young, thenthis is you.
(11:35):
It's relative.
It's a way of identifying thisand that we say go back to the
origin of nothing.
Then you recognize the trueself.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, and that's really the beauty of Taoism too.
Is that space?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and people always talk about mindfulness,
mindfulness Often that's whatteaches mindlessness, and that
doesn't mean you're stupid.
It just means you don't letyour mind and your thoughts
govern who you are.
You need to go beyond that.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Exactly, exactly.
So.
Then the next question I havefor you is that you stated you
were mentored by leading Chinesephilosophers, martial art
teachers, chinese medicinepractitioners and Taoists,
sometimes listening to sevenhours a day from the great
grandmas or Wei Reng Bang.
(12:42):
So can you tell us first, toour audience, what is lineage
and why is that importantBecause I think it'll be
probably like the firstintroduction they might hear to
that term and then, secondly,the philosophy behind the
lineage that you were trained in?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Those stories.
I have a Tai Chi teacher by thename of Wang Peikun.
He's a very high ranking, oneof the highest ranking in China,
same as Jethly's teacher.
He says to me I said one day Iwant to be your student, I want
to be your disciple, I want tolearn from you.
He said I take no student.
I've been studying with you for20 years.
(13:25):
I take no students, but if youtreat me like a teacher, then
I'll be your teacher.
So lineage is something that ifyou're lucky, you'll have
marvelous, marvelous influences.
I'm very, very lucky, forwhatever reason I've been
(13:46):
exposed to, like world-classteachers Judo, tai Chi and
martial art and Jujitsu andmedicine and yoga.
I'm like a lucky guy.
So if you have good influences,we say, when you drink the
(14:07):
water, remember the source.
You give gratitude to thesource that has nurtured you.
That's what a lineage is.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Lenege is also something you're.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
It's time, time spent with knowledge, with struggle
to figure out, to dialogue, todebate, to question, to
understand, to realize, to livein your own realization from the
(14:46):
teaching Lenege is aboutteaching.
It's not about me, you, him ornot about that.
It's about the principle ofteaching.
And the principle of teachingcomes from you, comes from me,
comes from everyone.
So everyone is a teacher, butyou choose one that really like,
(15:06):
lets you look at the horizonand beyond and someone can do
that for you.
Take them as your lineage.
So that's it.
Some cultural lineage is reallyimportant, but it's not about
(15:29):
pedigree.
You know, my dog is a shepherd.
You know, it's not like thatit's like knowledge, it's like
essence, what you have received.
I was in a yoga retreat and theteacher but I knew who my
(15:51):
Shivalasa Nanda, and she's ayoga teacher and we were doing
meditation and I fell into thisspace of Woji and I thought to
myself that's second, wait aminute.
Here's an Indian womanexemplifying what I grew up with
in Taoism.
Wait, is this 30 dollars?
(16:12):
Is it Indian?
Is it Christian?
It's none of it.
It's who you are and what youexperience.
So when you experience that,that you are no different than
all of this you are, you knowthe Indian have a saying now or
at that that's Taoism.
You are that, that's Taoism.
(16:34):
That's it Enough.
I think we need to go a littlebit more.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
No, no, that's.
That's excellent.
I think it's a great way toexplain lineage and the
philosophy behind it too, and Iknow Taoism can be approached
from many different ways.
To to find that path too.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
There are many people who claim by fathers, always
like be aware of what hat you'rewearing and who gave you the
hat.
Oh, I graduated from blah blahblah.
I am blah blah blah, blah, blahblah.
Waste of time.
Waste of time.
If you have the knowledge,share it, that's it so.
(17:22):
They're as simple as that, anddon't think that you're always a
teacher.
You have something to share andyou're vibrate.
I think Buddha just said out ofthe retreat that vibrate with
thoughts, good will and goodteaching out of the retreat.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, definitely.
Can you tell us to go a littlebit deeper, in the 1960s you and
your family you immigrated toAmerica where your father or
where Dr Wee Ren Fang organized?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Where you read.
And also my name is actuallyFang.
When I came to this, I was atthe ENG, so the ENG stays in
China.
It's Fang, but my name could bespelled F-O-N-G, f-u-n-g,
f-e-n-g, fang, fang, fang, butmy name is in Chinese.
(18:21):
It's Fang.
My father's name is Fang.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Anyway, I know I put the Americanized version of that
a little bit too.
Somebody tells you so yourfather organized lots of
different training for you andyou had such a unique upbringing
, and he also helped you studythe physical aspect of things
beyond the spiritual, like inQigong, jiu, jitsu and yoga.
(18:50):
Can you tell us more?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Jiu Jitsu didn't teach me yoga.
I had other teachers for that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Right, he arranged different teachers and brought
in Influenced me, right.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that experience and
how it influenced you?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I'll give you a story of my study in traditional
Chinese medicine.
I was at UC Berkeley studyingpsychology.
Not happy Back in the 60s, 68,69, I didn't like the system we
were approaching with psychology.
So I said to my father you know, I want to study something
traditional, something withhealing something that has
history, something that hasvalue.
(19:34):
He said well, come with me, letme introduce you to my friend,
dr Darius Hall, who is a verywell-known traditional Chinese
medicine doctor.
He was giving a class.
In the class there was an oldman sitting there reading a
textbook called Nen Ji InternalClassical Yellow Input, and it's
(19:57):
a very sophisticated language,very sophisticated thought.
That goes back like 3,000 years, approximately 3,000 years.
So my father said I want you togo over now so men can
translate for you.
So I went over there and theman was translating this
internal classic to me and Irealized that second that I knew
(20:17):
more than he did and I was inmy 20s.
So I said, maybe this issomething that's innate within
me All these years of listeningto my father talking about
philosophy, maybe all of thatstuff and I want the healing
people, maybe all of that stuffis meaningful to me.
So I go there to traditionalChinese medicine and at that
(20:39):
time it was actually stillillegal in California.
But something says you know,the universe offers for you.
These people are in front ofyou and take advantage of it.
You have no choice.
So a lot of things with thatwas you have no choice.
You're very sure you have nochoice, then you know who you
(20:59):
are.
So I studied and that time,with tumultuous people getting
arrested for practicing illegaltraditional Chinese medicine, my
colleagues were gettingarrested.
So I went to my teacher.
I said you know this ishappening.
He looked at me and he said doyou want to do this?
Yes, do it.
(21:22):
He walked away from me.
So it's about your calling,whether you're doing what
Shaolin is doing.
What we're doing, the universeopens up the door.
So it was illegal.
I dove into it.
It became illegal.
I became one of the first inCalifornia that got my license
(21:44):
and I was bilingual so I wasable to translate for teachers
at that time coming from ChinaTeaching Chinese medicine.
I was able to translate.
I had to first send knowledge.
All heads of department of allkinds.
And I also went to Hong Kong,and in Hong Kong you probably
(22:04):
know it's a conglomeration ofeverything.
Most street cleaners can speakseven languages.
So I was able to see modern,traditional Chinese medicine.
Modern medicine, traditionalChinese medicine, herbal
medicine, electro stimulation,east West combined medicine.
So I saw the world oftraditional Chinese medicine in
(22:25):
Hong Kong.
I also studied Japan or Korea.
Wherever there's somethinginteresting, I want to take a
look.
Can I benefit from this?
Can people that I know benefitfrom this?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
When my students ask me.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Dr Thang.
Dr Thang, I want to be like you, Be a healer.
I hit two questions.
You need to answer the numberone are you comfortable around
people who don't feel well?
If you're not comfortable,don't do it, it's not for you.
Do something else Just as well.
Number two do people get wellwithout you doing anything?
(23:01):
And that is the crust ofhealing.
It's not about what you do,it's not about what you do, it's
who you are, what you present,your vibration and all that
Something, what you do.
So I remember my yoga teachersaid it's not what you do, it's
(23:26):
the Shakti, it's the energy thathas its own life.
It will carry you.
You will heal who you need toheal.
We're not able to.
Don't take blame.
You're able to.
Don't take the fame.
Just do what you do.
Be normal, because Chinese isnormal.
(23:52):
Be casual, be ordinary.
Then answer the question.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, that's exactly what Ibelieve about medicine too and
the true essence of it, so wedefinitely have some synergy in
our beliefs and the real meaningof medicine.
It took me a while to find thattoo kind of in my studies and
my practice.
What does medicine mean?
Where is the essence of it?
(24:22):
And you said that perfectly.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Recently, the last 15 years, I've been working with
Dr Amy Mataki.
Dr Mataki is a Chinese doctorwho came from China.
She's a Western doctor fromChina.
She came to this country, madeherself a Western doctor again
and then she also went to theacupuncture school, became a TCM
practitioner and she has thisvision of integrated medicine.
(24:47):
So the last 15 years we've beenworking in the hospital looking
at Western medicine, looking attraditional Chinese medicine.
How can we?
merge them with the benefit ofthe patient.
So it was a great exploration,great frontier, because it
doesn't happen everywhere.
But no medicine is perfect.
(25:09):
There will be no sick people,so take medicine as what it is
the best of what it is for whatyou need it for.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Exactly so.
I have another tough questionwhich is hard to explain again.
Can you tell us I know thatyou've been teaching it as well
can you talk about Taoistmeditation and why it would be
important for our listeners topractice this?
(25:39):
And I know it's hard to say.
Well, having expectations ofthe meditation or benefits in
itself is hard to explain whenwe're discussing the essence of
meditation.
But I'm interested to hear yourthoughts.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
You don't want to meditate, you meditate.
You don't want to meditate,don't meditate Like what you
know.
Meditation is not what you do.
Meditation is a state of being.
You're meditating right now.
I'm meditating right now.
No like I have to sit here forfive hours or three hours and
(26:19):
fast on vegan food or vegetarianfood or no food at all.
It's not about any of that,sitting in certain posture,
cross-legged leg over your head.
No, it's about a state of being.
What is a state of being?
And I'd rather say recognizethe self, the self between the
(26:43):
breath, the self it resideswithin you not trouble bother,
afflicted with the Buddhist callof the red dust.
So pretty, so pretty.
This world so pretty, Don't beinvolved with that.
Meditation in Chinese is calledJing Jing.
(27:06):
Means still Quiet, withoutstruggle To amin sit or in the
seat of meditation, and how doyou go about teaching the
(27:31):
meditation in your classes?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Just it Right, well said, well said.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Perfect, because what you do is really a state of
being.
There are many ways to get intothe state of being.
You can sing, get you into achanting zone.
You can go into meditation.
That way you can close youreyes and just sit quietly
(28:02):
Sitting in the seat of silence.
No struggle, no, nothing.
Just be calm, relax, pine toyourself, meditation.
You can chat, you can countbeats, you can count numbers,
you can count thoughts.
You can go, dive into thoughts,dissolve thoughts.
(28:22):
There are many ways to get intothis space.
A basketball player that makesa three-pointer from the way
back there, they're in the zone.
They're not thinking aboutpeople yelling at them.
Whether the shoes are untied ornot, uniform they're wear.
There's just one thought Wham,I have a goal, I have a purpose.
(28:44):
Wham, put a ball in the basket.
That's my purpose right now andthat's meditation.
So if you're looking forachievement, you're looking for
benefit, you're in the wrongplace.
Those things come with it.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
If you have a healthy body.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
So many good things come with it.
You have a clarity of mind,clarity of consciousness or
conscience.
You're free.
So many things come to that.
Wonderful people come to yourlife, wonderful knowledge comes
to you.
You don't have to like, oh,what can I get?
What can I get?
I want to be wealthy, I want tobe famous, I want to be pretty,
(29:25):
I want to be smart.
I want so much work.
Let it come to you.
Learn to absorb, learn to take.
Who am I?
Can I absorb this?
I played kongal drum, african,cuban kongal drum.
Seven years, after seven years,my teacher of the day says
(29:46):
you're okay, you're okay, I'mokay.
That's the way I am, I'm okay,that's it.
I'm not a superstar.
I can't play in the band.
I can't jam with you know,santana no, I'm not at that
(30:07):
level, but I'm okay.
So don't try to achieve, grabthings that make you feel you
have a bigger hat or shiny orsomething.
You know the king was no role.
He had beautiful role.
Don't let that fool you.
Don't let my up to you Knowyourself, meditate on yourself,
(30:34):
for yourself.
Everything else will come.
You're giving, you're taking,you're sharing.
All that will be there.
Don't work at it.
Anyway, that's Taoism.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, you said it absolutely perfectly.
There too, it's not doing.
And the emptiness and thatspace where there's the real
power.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I remember once I was in a, I was in a hospital and
my wife and I walked into theelevator and one room we can
tell the other person theelevator at worst and super
distressed, just sad face down.
My wife, without sayinganything, went over, just gave
(31:22):
her a hug.
That was it, a simple act ofkindness, recognizing and doing
something about it.
And she says to me, she saysyou know, kindness is very
inexpensive.
Taoism Be kind 100%.
(31:46):
Simple things.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Exactly, yeah, thank you.
Thank you for explaining allthose things too.
I I always have a problemtrying to explain those concepts
to people, and I think you dida perfect job of explaining the
unexplained experience.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Now that you got it, you use your experience to
express stories.
I love stories because storiesyou have to think about it.
It's not something just I saidto you and you got it.
You have to like what, whatdoes that mean?
And that process?
It lightens you.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It reaches you.
Yeah, it really does.
The next question I have foryou is Like moving on a little
bit from Taoism is to discussthe philosophy behind
traditional Chinese medicine andthen how how that differences
or what's a different ideabehind that then conventional
(32:55):
medicine.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
You have both conventional medicine
traditional Chinese medicine,western medicine is conventional
medicine.
That's about 200 years, maybe300 years.
Traditional Chinese medicineconventional medicine has
probably 5000 years.
So Another story I went with myfather to Hong Kong when we
(33:20):
went to the outdoor market andthere was a guy there with his
carpet and false teeth Laying onthe carpet.
I said what's he doing?
What's this guy doing?
He's a dentist.
He makes false teeth for people.
Well, don't you need lightchairs, equipment, oxygen.
You're making false teeth andOutdoor and the carpet for
(33:45):
people.
My father smile.
He says you know if it didn'twork.
Do you think people let him bethere?
So medicine is something thatwork to save people.
Whatever work with his African,eastern, latin American,
(34:06):
european we as human being learnto heal ourselves and others.
That's a foundation of healing.
There is no difference in thefoundation.
It's getting well Differentperspective.
Some look at.
My pro scottie cells, a cells,diseases on a cellular level.
(34:31):
And some people look at yourhealth.
How do you present your health?
Your color, your pulse, yourtongue, you know what you eat.
So different ways of looking atthe same being Give you
different approaches for healing.
Tcm comes from observation andempirical experience, but I put
(34:57):
myself right here in my arm, myfever goes away.
Maybe this thing here they touchor poke or pressure or needle
makes a difference to my wholebody in fever.
Well, this goes on for like twothousand years.
Everybody collect thisinformation.
Next thing you know there's asystem.
Doing this point will releaseyour constipation, diarrhea and
(35:22):
fever.
Wow, maybe there's a.
There's something to that.
Can you find the occupant?
Your point, with what machine,what?
What instrument?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
me up.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Can you find your mind?
With what instrument, whatmachine?
No, it exists on another plane.
It's another way of looking atthe body, of a Energetic
perspective versus a cellularperspective.
All good, just different.
Blood tests allow you to tellthe tell whether you're in the
(36:01):
middle, not looking at thetongue, your eyes, your pulse,
your lips.
Underneath the eye, we can tell.
Are you in the big other?
same thing Pulse it.
You have high pressure.
High blood pressure alsoreflect that if you study, pulse
.
So Tibetan medicine,traditional Chinese medicine,
(36:22):
use a different Assessmenttechnique versus allopathic
medicine.
Just different, all good.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Right and yeah, I mean, I.
I mean I feel like Chinesemedicine.
It ties it back to the personmore, and an allopathic which is
a better way than sayingconventional Um is more looking
away from the person, looking attests, looking at diagnostics,
rather than looking inward tosee all these things and looking
at that knowledge.
So that's why I really feelthat Chinese medicine has has
(36:59):
some real power.
I remember I took just a coupleChinese medicine courses when I
was in med school and what am I?
Professor said it could take 10years just to learn how to
really read the pulse and tounderstand that level and to
really read the body, and so Ithink it's really impressive.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Well, yes and no is the answer to that, because we
all have gifts.
For example, you articulatevery well, some people can see
very well, some people can smellvery well, some people can
touch very well.
All diagnosis is a gift.
Some people are Mozart, somepeople are like ACDC.
(37:42):
Different aspect of being ableto assess.
So, yes, post diagnosis initself is a unique technique
that takes time and sick peopleTo assess.
All this big sick person hasthis kind of post and when there
(38:03):
was a post I had a patient thatpericarditis.
I've never had a patient withher pericarditis.
A touch of post pericarditis,oh my god, it was like rain on
the tin roof.
For the first time I recognizewhat that means for the person's
heart from the post.
So you have to have theexperience, so you're right.
(38:27):
But if you're changing medicinelike a more holistic approach
for the individual and there'sdifferent ways to read aura,
read the tongue, read the post,listen to the voice, I remember
once with about the arms, how Iwas apprenticing with him and
and we're apprentices with him.
You sit next to the doctor.
People come in and take thepolicy where to put strip and go
(38:48):
.
Five dollars at that time wasfive dollars, I was cheap so
literally took a few minutes.
When it comes in, go to them,take a post to the stripping, go
fill it.
When it comes in, didn't askany question, didn't look at
them, didn't take the post right, put strip in here five dollars
.
I said teach her, teach her.
(39:10):
You never look at them to knowto the post.
You never ask any historyquestion.
Yeah, I didn't even ask.
With His primary Problems issues, are he's a few full?
Then you hear him cough.
Next door, bing Horizon, open acough.
(39:32):
A mother can tell a cough, achild, how serious the problem
is why you tune in to the wholebeing and the meditation of
illness or help.
So it opened my eyes, my earsup Just to listen.
(39:53):
So in our class we have a wayof checking your cheek by a
young.
To a long the phonereverberates and sings back to
you.
You have cheap.
So it's a different way oflooking at energy.
Testing energy, assessing whenthe imbalance may be between me
and young.
What's the menace is just asgood you're gonna have blood
(40:16):
that you have MRI.
If somebody falls down you needto see whether the lead or
whether it's a clot.
You need to know these things.
I have great medicine with yourclock boom 30 minutes.
You say otherwise yourparalyzed.
Great stuff, you know.
And some immunity stuff, greatstuff and safe people, thousands
(40:36):
of people, millions of people,generations of people, this
stuff.
So I have a good friend who ishead of China very famous Maldon
hospital.
He says he was trained inJapan's watch it ahead of
tradition Chinese medicine butalso Western train.
(40:58):
He says don't fight, in thebeginning I was fighting with
Western medicine, all you knowgood.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Way better.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
And now, why?
No need to fight.
Find the best in both world anduse it for the benefit from the
video, and it takes a brilliantmind Togetherness to make that
happen.
No, I'm better than you.
The worst of me.
Those kind of ideas Don't getyou anywhere.
(41:30):
What is best from my experience?
What is best in your experience?
Can we combine the two?
In what way can we?
In a way we should move.
So, for example, the herbalmedicine.
If somebody is a Blooddeficient or losing blood, you
(41:50):
have to be careful not to givehim herbs.
That makes him lose more blood.
That moves the blood muchgreater.
So you have to know this persontaking Western medicine is in
the blood and you then applytraditional.
Chinese medicine To work withthat particular issue, but the
blood was gonna be thin.
How do you then tone of otherblood?
(42:12):
Good question how do we worktogether?
Chemotherapy Should you doherbal medicine with
chemotherapy?
Some people say no, you affectthe chemotherapy.
Some people say no, you need toprepare yourself for the
chemotherapy.
Some people say you need to doit concurrently with
chemotherapy.
Some people say you need to doit after chemotherapy.
Hey, it all exists.
(42:35):
People choose different methodsdepending on the individual
need and philosophy.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Exactly Now.
I agree with you 100%.
I always say stay in the middleof the circle.
You know like, see the benefitsof everything and the excess of
anything you get.
You become unbalanced in thattoo much of too many antibiotics
for too many elements ordifferent things like that.
There's that issue.
But there's benefits to all andall is needed and it's just
(43:08):
it's finding that balance andtreating the individual.
So you said it very well there.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Treating you, treating me.
What do I need?
What do you need as anindividual Bastic people?
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Exactly and okay.
So I have one last question,and we've discussed this a
little bit, but really, how doyou combine, like, how do you
practice?
How do you combine yourspiritual knowledge and
integrate that into yourclinical practice when you see
patients?
Speaker 3 (43:47):
No different than what you're doing right now.
You are who you are.
There's no difference in spiritworld and this world, medical
world, martial art world.
There's no different.
Everything for me is aspiritual practice.
I'm learning how to do salsadancing, but I do a Tai Chi
(44:10):
style.
It works for me.
Do who you are the enlogamationof everything you learn and
true to your nature.
Be true to yourself no matterwhat other people say.
No other people do Be true toyourself and move from there.
(44:33):
Everything will you know it'snot what you do.
Everything will come.
Everything will come.
Everything will manifest itself.
They're going to get well.
They're not going to get well.
They love you, they don't likeyou, they hate you.
None of it is important.
Be who you are from your heart.
(44:54):
Combine with your intellect,with your mind.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Well said, okay, I just.
I have a couple more questionsfor you to start on.
If somebody is more interestedin studying Taoism or finding
out more about this, how do theyfind you or what are you
offering for our audience ifthey can get more information or
find your classes, if you'redoing Zoom classes right now, or
(45:23):
different resources?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
If you definitely listen to you, you will tell
them all that they need to know.
What do they call it Media,blah, blah blah.
So I have Zoom classes, I havein-house classes, but one of the
things that I learned with myteacher is that just think of
(45:48):
your teacher.
Just think of what you want tolearn, it'll come to you.
There are many styles of Daoism, many styles, just like many
styles of music or dancing orpoetry.
You need to find what comes toyou and what fits you, what
works for you.
(46:08):
You can certainly Google me andfind out what I offer, but I'm
just one guy in this universe.
You may want to find somebodyclose to you.
You may want to look at my pastpresentation of Zoom of Daoist
talk.
We did it for years and myworkshop.
I recorded it so you canactually capture that and listen
(46:29):
to it.
It's very nice stuff.
It's a combination of manykinds of thinking that's been
churned in the process anddelivered.
So you can do that.
You can look at the Zoom onTuesday.
We might do in-house in thehospital sponsored by Summit
Hospital, the Terraria campus inBerkeley.
So in-house, for those who livearound here, we're going to do
(46:54):
a hybrid.
We're going to do Zoom andQigong in-house with that.
I teach a Qigong class onSaturday, I teach a Tai Chi
class, I teach a Judo class.
All that should be the websiteto get them to get it.
If you're in this neighborhood,where are you anyway?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Michelle, I'm based in Washington state, so I'm on
the West Coast.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
You're the person to see me.
It takes a little bit of effort, so this is the best way.
Zoom is a good way.
Look at some of my past stuff.
I think I have some publishedstain on something I forgot
where it was.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
You had some great meditation videos too that I
found on your website, so thatwas a great sequence, and I'll
be sure to list that as well.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
I also have a Gong thing, a meditation Gong.
I love the Gong.
The singing Gong is like a niceinstrument that takes you
places.
You can travel with it.
It takes you and if you playedit with yourself, you have to
resonate with the Gong and theGong will tell you I like you,
no, I don't like you.
(47:59):
No, I don't like this part ofyou Very clearly as you play the
Gong.
Everything who you are manifestin the Gong.
That speaks back to you.
But that's another way ofmeditating, find some teachers,
read some books.
There are three ways to learn.
Number one teacher.
Number two scriptures, meaningwhat you hear, what you see,
(48:24):
what you learn written, so onand so forth.
Number three most important partIntuitive, the dog.
You know it because you know,nobody's taught you, you just
know.
Those are the three ways.
Find a teacher.
Many teachers Find some thingsto look at, to read, to listen
(48:49):
to.
And there was three Kill intoyourself and absorb the
knowledge that comes to you.
Three ways to learn Excellent.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Well, thank you for coming on today and explaining
the unexplained Also, and Ithink this is a great seed to
plan really for our audience toget that knowledge.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Thank you for opening this mindset for people and
allowing them to explore adifferent world.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, thank you.
Welcome to the podcast Medicine Untold and come
with me on a journey to theunexplored side of medicine,
where we speak with rebeldoctors, radical herbalists,
unorthodox healers and patientswho have healed themselves.
Explore the intersectionbetween science and spirituality
and discover the power withinyou.
(00:26):
I'm your host, Dr MichelleBerklin, licensed naturopathic
doctor, botanical outcomeist andpracticing physician.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome everyone.
Today we have a guest.
We have Dr Alex Fang.
So thank you very much, dr Fang, for joining us, and I'll go
ahead and read a little bitabout your background.
Dr Alex Fang is a Taoist priest,medical, qigong grandmaster,
traditional Chinese medicinephysician, acupuncturist,
(00:59):
herbalist and feng shui master.
He was born in China, where hewas immersed in the three
pillars of Taoism physicalstrength and well-being, healing
and spiritual development.
Dr Fang was trained by hisfather, dr Wei Ren Fang, a
well-known scholar and spiritualleader who descended from a
long lineage of Taoistphilosophers, scholars and
(01:20):
healers.
He was ordained in Z Taoism inthe 1970s.
After immigrating to the UnitedStates, dr Fang continued his
studies in Taoism and martialarts, focusing on both his
physical and spiritualdevelopment.
Dr Fang studied at UC Berkeleyand the New College of San
Francisco.
Then he graduated with hisdoctorate in Oriental Medicine
(01:41):
and PhD from Samra University inLos Angeles, and he became one
of the first practitioners to belicensed when acupuncture was
legalized in California in 1976.
Today he is the founder of theClinic for Traditional Chinese
Medicine in Berkeley, california.
Dr Fang and his wife alsofounded the Z Tao Guan Taoist
(02:02):
Center in Oakland, california,which is the first major center
devoted to Taoist arts in theBay Area.
Welcome today, and the firstquestion I have for you kind of
goes into how this journey beganfor you.
So it seems as though thisjourney began for you at a young
age, when you were eight, andso can you tell us more about
(02:26):
the experience you had at thisage that kind of helped define
your life path?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I love that question.
So age seven, eight, eight, wasafflicted with severe asthma.
I was missing school threemonths to six months at a time.
So one day I picked up a bookon Qibong.
I read the book and actuallyrealized how to do Qibong cured
(02:56):
myself of asthma at age eight.
So I said if I can do it, thenthey change.
Anybody can do this.
So that's a life-changing partof my life is that if you have
intuition and you have awillingness to dive into
knowledge of yourself, you canmake changes.
One important piece of my lifeis that I was climbing a
(03:21):
mountain in Taiwan, where I grewup, and I was sitting there
looking at the sky, looking atthe earth, saying to myself what
am I doing here?
Why am I here on this thingbetween heaven and earth?
Who am I?
What am I?
What am I doing?
And at the same moment I lookedacross the mountain there's a
(03:42):
Buddhist temple and there ischanting going on, there's smoke
coming out of the temple, andimmediately realized that moment
ah, that's why I'm here.
So those are the two componentsof my life that mold me into
who I am.
My parents were my mother'sGerman, my father's Chinese, so
(04:06):
it's a cross-culturalenvironment.
Where I grew up, we spoke manylanguages and my father was
definitely a Taoist.
My mother was a Christian.
She took me to Protestantchurch, catholic church, to
Taoist temple.
So, like this is whatspirituality may look like, what
(04:29):
is it that you want?
So it puts me on the path ofdiscovery what is spirituality,
what is my spirituality?
And my father said somethingthat's really unique, that
influenced my life.
He said that God in your heartis your God.
(04:49):
Oh, that's the beginning storyof my life, and I realized at a
very young age my mother was ahealer, my father was a healer
of a different sort.
My mother was a physical healer, my father was a spiritual
healer.
So I grew up with thatenvironment around me and both
of them were professors in theuniversity, so I learned how to
teach and learn how to learn.
(05:12):
I was a terrible studentbecause when they tried to cram
things into you, it just didn'tmake sense.
You have to allow feelings andthinking to come out from the
individual, you have to draw itfrom the individual and we
become who we are through that,not through implant, implant,
implant.
So, briefly, that's my history.
(05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
What an interesting childhood too.
You had all these differentinfluences, but not having
everything pushed on you.
You really found your path yourown way and you knew it.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
It is because so much was pushed on me.
I had to survive that to findmy way.
Pressure is not a bad thing,it's just temporary.
You have to realize it is whatwe call gates that you've got to
go through.
In many cases we have to gothrough emotional gates,
hereditary gates, physical gates, intellectual gates, so on and
(06:11):
so forth.
We have to go through thesegates to realize who am I and
the mist of all of that, yeah,very true.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, the next question I have is kind of it's
hard to put in words and Daoismhas a really special place in my
heart too, but I know this isgoing to be a difficult question
.
Can you tell our audience kindof the philosophy of Daoism and
really what it is for peoplethat have never really heard of
(06:43):
it before or might just know alittle bit about it?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Okay, two aspects.
Number one when Confucius wentto.
Laozi, who was like the head ofDaoism knowledge and lineage.
He says what's Daoism?
And Laozi said.
Confucius asks again so what isDaoism?
(07:11):
Laozi once again replied insilence so it is.
You know, the first chapter ofDaoism.
Dao Dajin says that which canbe spoken is not definitively
what is.
So.
Words are not explained the wayyou like what you do, your
(07:36):
relationship with your husband,your feeling for him passing
doing what you're doing now noneof that can be expressed.
It would take too long.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So it is a feeling, it is a present that you
recognize what Daoism is.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Another aspect the character Dao, the radical Dao,
in Chinese is written as selfthat moves in harmony, or
transcendence of Yin and Yang.
Alpha Divert is a Self, theSelf.
(08:15):
We have a dragon tail that runsnext to the Self meaning
movement.
Movement and the dragon alsorepresent transformation.
The Self that moves intransformation comes to a place
of understanding two componentsIf you are in harmony, you are
(08:40):
in doubt, or you are able totranscend even harmony.
You become understanding of Yinand Yang, is or is not.
So the Self that moves inharmony, or transcendence of
differences, is in the space ofdoubt.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Very well said for something that's hard to say.
Moving on to the next question,can you explain what the three
pillars of Taoism are too?
The?
Speaker 3 (09:18):
what.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
The three pillars.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Well, three pillars, eight pillars, five pillars, two
pillars.
These are just references.
You can choose any pillars youlike.
They become your three pillars.
So at some point I must havesaid something about spirit,
body, well-being, healing.
(09:42):
All those are pillars.
So Buddhist have pillars,christians have pillars,
thousands of pillars.
Those are academics.
You can choose anything youlike for your essence.
We say there are threetreasures.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
The three treasures are your essence your energy and
your spirit.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
So cultivate those and you have your three pillars.
Or you have avenues in yourlife that you can cultivate.
You can cultivate your energy,health.
You can cultivate your essence,essence, essence.
What is your essence?
So that takes a little while,it's just oh, it is my essence
(10:27):
anyway.
And then your spirit.
Spirit can some people say themind, some people say it's
beyond the mind.
The mind can keep you like amonkey very busy.
Beyond the mind, you have todiscover who you are, where you
are, what you are, whatever.
This consciousness is all aboutWuji.
(10:52):
That was the foundation ofnothingness.
A great, great, great boy,great nothingness.
Some people call it a blackhole.
You go in and disappear orwhatever.
You transform into somethingelse and from Wuji you have a
consciousness that you haveawareness.
Ah, I am in nothing, I amnothing.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Everything is nothing .
Speaker 3 (11:13):
That awareness separates you from nothing.
You are now having a youngdifferences you and me, space,
time, colors, age, sex, whateverDifferences.
A differences is relative.
If you call this young, thenthis is you.
If you call this young, thenthis is you.
(11:35):
It's relative.
It's a way of identifying thisand that we say go back to the
origin of nothing.
Then you recognize the trueself.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, and that's really the beauty of Taoism too.
Is that space?
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and people always talk about mindfulness,
mindfulness Often that's whatteaches mindlessness, and that
doesn't mean you're stupid.
It just means you don't letyour mind and your thoughts
govern who you are.
You need to go beyond that.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Exactly, exactly.
So.
Then the next question I havefor you is that you stated you
were mentored by leading Chinesephilosophers, martial art
teachers, chinese medicinepractitioners and Taoists,
sometimes listening to sevenhours a day from the great
grandmas or Wei Reng Bang.
(12:42):
So can you tell us first, toour audience, what is lineage
and why is that importantBecause I think it'll be
probably like the firstintroduction they might hear to
that term and then, secondly,the philosophy behind the
lineage that you were trained in?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Those stories.
I have a Tai Chi teacher by thename of Wang Peikun.
He's a very high ranking, oneof the highest ranking in China,
same as Jethly's teacher.
He says to me I said one day Iwant to be your student, I want
to be your disciple, I want tolearn from you.
He said I take no student.
I've been studying with you for20 years.
(13:25):
I take no students, but if youtreat me like a teacher, then
I'll be your teacher.
So lineage is something that ifyou're lucky, you'll have
marvelous, marvelous influences.
I'm very, very lucky, forwhatever reason I've been
(13:46):
exposed to, like world-classteachers Judo, tai Chi and
martial art and Jujitsu andmedicine and yoga.
I'm like a lucky guy.
So if you have good influences,we say, when you drink the
(14:07):
water, remember the source.
You give gratitude to thesource that has nurtured you.
That's what a lineage is.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Lenege is also something you're.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
It's time, time spent with knowledge, with struggle
to figure out, to dialogue, todebate, to question, to
understand, to realize, to livein your own realization from the
(14:46):
teaching Lenege is aboutteaching.
It's not about me, you, him ornot about that.
It's about the principle ofteaching.
And the principle of teachingcomes from you, comes from me,
comes from everyone.
So everyone is a teacher, butyou choose one that really like,
(15:06):
lets you look at the horizonand beyond and someone can do
that for you.
Take them as your lineage.
So that's it.
Some cultural lineage is reallyimportant, but it's not about
(15:29):
pedigree.
You know, my dog is a shepherd.
You know, it's not like thatit's like knowledge, it's like
essence, what you have received.
I was in a yoga retreat and theteacher but I knew who my
(15:51):
Shivalasa Nanda, and she's ayoga teacher and we were doing
meditation and I fell into thisspace of Woji and I thought to
myself that's second, wait aminute.
Here's an Indian womanexemplifying what I grew up with
in Taoism.
Wait, is this 30 dollars?
(16:12):
Is it Indian?
Is it Christian?
It's none of it.
It's who you are and what youexperience.
So when you experience that,that you are no different than
all of this you are, you knowthe Indian have a saying now or
at that that's Taoism.
You are that, that's Taoism.
(16:34):
That's it Enough.
I think we need to go a littlebit more.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
No, no, that's.
That's excellent.
I think it's a great way toexplain lineage and the
philosophy behind it too, and Iknow Taoism can be approached
from many different ways.
To to find that path too.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
There are many people who claim by fathers, always
like be aware of what hat you'rewearing and who gave you the
hat.
Oh, I graduated from blah blahblah.
I am blah blah blah, blah, blahblah.
Waste of time.
Waste of time.
If you have the knowledge,share it, that's it so.
(17:22):
They're as simple as that, anddon't think that you're always a
teacher.
You have something to share andyou're vibrate.
I think Buddha just said out ofthe retreat that vibrate with
thoughts, good will and goodteaching out of the retreat.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah, definitely.
Can you tell us to go a littlebit deeper, in the 1960s you and
your family you immigrated toAmerica where your father or
where Dr Wee Ren Fang organized?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Where you read.
And also my name is actuallyFang.
When I came to this, I was atthe ENG, so the ENG stays in
China.
It's Fang, but my name could bespelled F-O-N-G, f-u-n-g,
f-e-n-g, fang, fang, fang, butmy name is in Chinese.
(18:21):
It's Fang.
My father's name is Fang.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Anyway, I know I put the Americanized version of that
a little bit too.
Somebody tells you so yourfather organized lots of
different training for you andyou had such a unique upbringing
, and he also helped you studythe physical aspect of things
beyond the spiritual, like inQigong, jiu, jitsu and yoga.
(18:50):
Can you tell us more?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Jiu Jitsu didn't teach me yoga.
I had other teachers for that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Right, he arranged different teachers and brought
in Influenced me, right.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that experience and
how it influenced you?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I'll give you a story of my study in traditional
Chinese medicine.
I was at UC Berkeley studyingpsychology.
Not happy Back in the 60s, 68,69, I didn't like the system we
were approaching with psychology.
So I said to my father you know, I want to study something
traditional, something withhealing something that has
history, something that hasvalue.
(19:34):
He said well, come with me, letme introduce you to my friend,
dr Darius Hall, who is a verywell-known traditional Chinese
medicine doctor.
He was giving a class.
In the class there was an oldman sitting there reading a
textbook called Nen Ji InternalClassical Yellow Input, and it's
(19:57):
a very sophisticated language,very sophisticated thought.
That goes back like 3,000 years, approximately 3,000 years.
So my father said I want you togo over now so men can
translate for you.
So I went over there and theman was translating this
internal classic to me and Irealized that second that I knew
(20:17):
more than he did and I was inmy 20s.
So I said, maybe this issomething that's innate within
me All these years of listeningto my father talking about
philosophy, maybe all of thatstuff and I want the healing
people, maybe all of that stuffis meaningful to me.
So I go there to traditionalChinese medicine and at that
(20:39):
time it was actually stillillegal in California.
But something says you know,the universe offers for you.
These people are in front ofyou and take advantage of it.
You have no choice.
So a lot of things with thatwas you have no choice.
You're very sure you have nochoice, then you know who you
(20:59):
are.
So I studied and that time,with tumultuous people getting
arrested for practicing illegaltraditional Chinese medicine, my
colleagues were gettingarrested.
So I went to my teacher.
I said you know this ishappening.
He looked at me and he said doyou want to do this?
Yes, do it.
(21:22):
He walked away from me.
So it's about your calling,whether you're doing what
Shaolin is doing.
What we're doing, the universeopens up the door.
So it was illegal.
I dove into it.
It became illegal.
I became one of the first inCalifornia that got my license
(21:44):
and I was bilingual so I wasable to translate for teachers
at that time coming from ChinaTeaching Chinese medicine.
I was able to translate.
I had to first send knowledge.
All heads of department of allkinds.
And I also went to Hong Kong,and in Hong Kong you probably
(22:04):
know it's a conglomeration ofeverything.
Most street cleaners can speakseven languages.
So I was able to see modern,traditional Chinese medicine.
Modern medicine, traditionalChinese medicine, herbal
medicine, electro stimulation,east West combined medicine.
So I saw the world oftraditional Chinese medicine in
(22:25):
Hong Kong.
I also studied Japan or Korea.
Wherever there's somethinginteresting, I want to take a
look.
Can I benefit from this?
Can people that I know benefitfrom this?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
When my students ask me.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Dr Thang.
Dr Thang, I want to be like you, Be a healer.
I hit two questions.
You need to answer the numberone are you comfortable around
people who don't feel well?
If you're not comfortable,don't do it, it's not for you.
Do something else Just as well.
Number two do people get wellwithout you doing anything?
(23:01):
And that is the crust ofhealing.
It's not about what you do,it's not about what you do, it's
who you are, what you present,your vibration and all that
Something, what you do.
So I remember my yoga teachersaid it's not what you do, it's
(23:26):
the Shakti, it's the energy thathas its own life.
It will carry you.
You will heal who you need toheal.
We're not able to.
Don't take blame.
You're able to.
Don't take the fame.
Just do what you do.
Be normal, because Chinese isnormal.
(23:52):
Be casual, be ordinary.
Then answer the question.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, that's exactly what Ibelieve about medicine too and
the true essence of it, so wedefinitely have some synergy in
our beliefs and the real meaningof medicine.
It took me a while to find thattoo kind of in my studies and
my practice.
What does medicine mean?
Where is the essence of it?
(24:22):
And you said that perfectly.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Recently, the last 15 years, I've been working with
Dr Amy Mataki.
Dr Mataki is a Chinese doctorwho came from China.
She's a Western doctor fromChina.
She came to this country, madeherself a Western doctor again
and then she also went to theacupuncture school, became a TCM
practitioner and she has thisvision of integrated medicine.
(24:47):
So the last 15 years we've beenworking in the hospital looking
at Western medicine, looking attraditional Chinese medicine.
How can we?
merge them with the benefit ofthe patient.
So it was a great exploration,great frontier, because it
doesn't happen everywhere.
But no medicine is perfect.
(25:09):
There will be no sick people,so take medicine as what it is
the best of what it is for whatyou need it for.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Exactly so.
I have another tough questionwhich is hard to explain again.
Can you tell us I know thatyou've been teaching it as well
can you talk about Taoistmeditation and why it would be
important for our listeners topractice this?
(25:39):
And I know it's hard to say.
Well, having expectations ofthe meditation or benefits in
itself is hard to explain whenwe're discussing the essence of
meditation.
But I'm interested to hear yourthoughts.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
You don't want to meditate, you meditate.
You don't want to meditate,don't meditate Like what you
know.
Meditation is not what you do.
Meditation is a state of being.
You're meditating right now.
I'm meditating right now.
No like I have to sit here forfive hours or three hours and
(26:19):
fast on vegan food or vegetarianfood or no food at all.
It's not about any of that,sitting in certain posture,
cross-legged leg over your head.
No, it's about a state of being.
What is a state of being?
And I'd rather say recognizethe self, the self between the
(26:43):
breath, the self it resideswithin you not trouble bother,
afflicted with the Buddhist callof the red dust.
So pretty, so pretty.
This world so pretty, Don't beinvolved with that.
Meditation in Chinese is calledJing Jing.
(27:06):
Means still Quiet, withoutstruggle To amin sit or in the
seat of meditation, and how doyou go about teaching the
(27:31):
meditation in your classes?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Just it Right, well said, well said.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Perfect, because what you do is really a state of
being.
There are many ways to get intothe state of being.
You can sing, get you into achanting zone.
You can go into meditation.
That way you can close youreyes and just sit quietly
(28:02):
Sitting in the seat of silence.
No struggle, no, nothing.
Just be calm, relax, pine toyourself, meditation.
You can chat, you can countbeats, you can count numbers,
you can count thoughts.
You can go, dive into thoughts,dissolve thoughts.
(28:22):
There are many ways to get intothis space.
A basketball player that makesa three-pointer from the way
back there, they're in the zone.
They're not thinking aboutpeople yelling at them.
Whether the shoes are untied ornot, uniform they're wear.
There's just one thought Wham,I have a goal, I have a purpose.
(28:44):
Wham, put a ball in the basket.
That's my purpose right now andthat's meditation.
So if you're looking forachievement, you're looking for
benefit, you're in the wrongplace.
Those things come with it.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
If you have a healthy body.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
So many good things come with it.
You have a clarity of mind,clarity of consciousness or
conscience.
You're free.
So many things come to that.
Wonderful people come to yourlife, wonderful knowledge comes
to you.
You don't have to like, oh,what can I get?
What can I get?
I want to be wealthy, I want tobe famous, I want to be pretty,
(29:25):
I want to be smart.
I want so much work.
Let it come to you.
Learn to absorb, learn to take.
Who am I?
Can I absorb this?
I played kongal drum, african,cuban kongal drum.
Seven years, after seven years,my teacher of the day says
(29:46):
you're okay, you're okay, I'mokay.
That's the way I am, I'm okay,that's it.
I'm not a superstar.
I can't play in the band.
I can't jam with you know,santana no, I'm not at that
(30:07):
level, but I'm okay.
So don't try to achieve, grabthings that make you feel you
have a bigger hat or shiny orsomething.
You know the king was no role.
He had beautiful role.
Don't let that fool you.
Don't let my up to you Knowyourself, meditate on yourself,
(30:34):
for yourself.
Everything else will come.
You're giving, you're taking,you're sharing.
All that will be there.
Don't work at it.
Anyway, that's Taoism.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, you said it absolutely perfectly.
There too, it's not doing.
And the emptiness and thatspace where there's the real
power.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I remember once I was in a, I was in a hospital and
my wife and I walked into theelevator and one room we can
tell the other person theelevator at worst and super
distressed, just sad face down.
My wife, without sayinganything, went over, just gave
(31:22):
her a hug.
That was it, a simple act ofkindness, recognizing and doing
something about it.
And she says to me, she saysyou know, kindness is very
inexpensive.
Taoism Be kind 100%.
(31:46):
Simple things.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Exactly, yeah, thank you.
Thank you for explaining allthose things too.
I I always have a problemtrying to explain those concepts
to people, and I think you dida perfect job of explaining the
unexplained experience.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Now that you got it, you use your experience to
express stories.
I love stories because storiesyou have to think about it.
It's not something just I saidto you and you got it.
You have to like what, whatdoes that mean?
And that process?
It lightens you.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
It reaches you.
Yeah, it really does.
The next question I have foryou is Like moving on a little
bit from Taoism is to discussthe philosophy behind
traditional Chinese medicine andthen how how that differences
or what's a different ideabehind that then conventional
(32:55):
medicine.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 3 (32:59):
You have both conventional medicine
traditional Chinese medicine,western medicine is conventional
medicine.
That's about 200 years, maybe300 years.
Traditional Chinese medicineconventional medicine has
probably 5000 years.
So Another story I went with myfather to Hong Kong when we
(33:20):
went to the outdoor market andthere was a guy there with his
carpet and false teeth Laying onthe carpet.
I said what's he doing?
What's this guy doing?
He's a dentist.
He makes false teeth for people.
Well, don't you need lightchairs, equipment, oxygen.
You're making false teeth andOutdoor and the carpet for
(33:45):
people.
My father smile.
He says you know if it didn'twork.
Do you think people let him bethere?
So medicine is something thatwork to save people.
Whatever work with his African,eastern, latin American,
(34:06):
european we as human being learnto heal ourselves and others.
That's a foundation of healing.
There is no difference in thefoundation.
It's getting well Differentperspective.
Some look at.
My pro scottie cells, a cells,diseases on a cellular level.
(34:31):
And some people look at yourhealth.
How do you present your health?
Your color, your pulse, yourtongue, you know what you eat.
So different ways of looking atthe same being Give you
different approaches for healing.
Tcm comes from observation andempirical experience, but I put
(34:57):
myself right here in my arm, myfever goes away.
Maybe this thing here they touchor poke or pressure or needle
makes a difference to my wholebody in fever.
Well, this goes on for like twothousand years.
Everybody collect thisinformation.
Next thing you know there's asystem.
Doing this point will releaseyour constipation, diarrhea and
(35:22):
fever.
Wow, maybe there's a.
There's something to that.
Can you find the occupant?
Your point, with what machine,what?
What instrument?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
me up.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Can you find your mind?
With what instrument, whatmachine?
No, it exists on another plane.
It's another way of looking atthe body, of a Energetic
perspective versus a cellularperspective.
All good, just different.
Blood tests allow you to tellthe tell whether you're in the
(36:01):
middle, not looking at thetongue, your eyes, your pulse,
your lips.
Underneath the eye, we can tell.
Are you in the big other?
same thing Pulse it.
You have high pressure.
High blood pressure alsoreflect that if you study, pulse
.
So Tibetan medicine,traditional Chinese medicine,
(36:22):
use a different Assessmenttechnique versus allopathic
medicine.
Just different, all good.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Right and yeah, I mean, I.
I mean I feel like Chinesemedicine.
It ties it back to the personmore, and an allopathic which is
a better way than sayingconventional Um is more looking
away from the person, looking attests, looking at diagnostics,
rather than looking inward tosee all these things and looking
at that knowledge.
So that's why I really feelthat Chinese medicine has has
(36:59):
some real power.
I remember I took just a coupleChinese medicine courses when I
was in med school and what am I?
Professor said it could take 10years just to learn how to
really read the pulse and tounderstand that level and to
really read the body, and so Ithink it's really impressive.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Well, yes and no is the answer to that, because we
all have gifts.
For example, you articulatevery well, some people can see
very well, some people can smellvery well, some people can
touch very well.
All diagnosis is a gift.
Some people are Mozart, somepeople are like ACDC.
(37:42):
Different aspect of being ableto assess.
So, yes, post diagnosis initself is a unique technique
that takes time and sick peopleTo assess.
All this big sick person hasthis kind of post and when there
(38:03):
was a post I had a patient thatpericarditis.
I've never had a patient withher pericarditis.
A touch of post pericarditis,oh my god, it was like rain on
the tin roof.
For the first time I recognizewhat that means for the person's
heart from the post.
So you have to have theexperience, so you're right.
(38:27):
But if you're changing medicinelike a more holistic approach
for the individual and there'sdifferent ways to read aura,
read the tongue, read the post,listen to the voice, I remember
once with about the arms, how Iwas apprenticing with him and
and we're apprentices with him.
You sit next to the doctor.
People come in and take thepolicy where to put strip and go
(38:48):
.
Five dollars at that time wasfive dollars, I was cheap so
literally took a few minutes.
When it comes in, go to them,take a post to the stripping, go
fill it.
When it comes in, didn't askany question, didn't look at
them, didn't take the post right, put strip in here five dollars
.
I said teach her, teach her.
(39:10):
You never look at them to knowto the post.
You never ask any historyquestion.
Yeah, I didn't even ask.
With His primary Problems issues, are he's a few full?
Then you hear him cough.
Next door, bing Horizon, open acough.
(39:32):
A mother can tell a cough, achild, how serious the problem
is why you tune in to the wholebeing and the meditation of
illness or help.
So it opened my eyes, my earsup Just to listen.
(39:53):
So in our class we have a wayof checking your cheek by a
young.
To a long the phonereverberates and sings back to
you.
You have cheap.
So it's a different way oflooking at energy.
Testing energy, assessing whenthe imbalance may be between me
and young.
What's the menace is just asgood you're gonna have blood
(40:16):
that you have MRI.
If somebody falls down you needto see whether the lead or
whether it's a clot.
You need to know these things.
I have great medicine with yourclock boom 30 minutes.
You say otherwise yourparalyzed.
Great stuff, you know.
And some immunity stuff, greatstuff and safe people, thousands
(40:36):
of people, millions of people,generations of people, this
stuff.
So I have a good friend who ishead of China very famous Maldon
hospital.
He says he was trained inJapan's watch it ahead of
tradition Chinese medicine butalso Western train.
(40:58):
He says don't fight, in thebeginning I was fighting with
Western medicine, all you knowgood.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Way better.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
And now, why?
No need to fight.
Find the best in both world anduse it for the benefit from the
video, and it takes a brilliantmind Togetherness to make that
happen.
No, I'm better than you.
The worst of me.
Those kind of ideas Don't getyou anywhere.
(41:30):
What is best from my experience?
What is best in your experience?
Can we combine the two?
In what way can we?
In a way we should move.
So, for example, the herbalmedicine.
If somebody is a Blooddeficient or losing blood, you
(41:50):
have to be careful not to givehim herbs.
That makes him lose more blood.
That moves the blood muchgreater.
So you have to know this persontaking Western medicine is in
the blood and you then applytraditional.
Chinese medicine To work withthat particular issue, but the
blood was gonna be thin.
How do you then tone of otherblood?
(42:12):
Good question how do we worktogether?
Chemotherapy Should you doherbal medicine with
chemotherapy?
Some people say no, you affectthe chemotherapy.
Some people say no, you need toprepare yourself for the
chemotherapy.
Some people say you need to doit concurrently with
chemotherapy.
Some people say you need to doit after chemotherapy.
Hey, it all exists.
(42:35):
People choose different methodsdepending on the individual
need and philosophy.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Exactly Now.
I agree with you 100%.
I always say stay in the middleof the circle.
You know like, see the benefitsof everything and the excess of
anything you get.
You become unbalanced in thattoo much of too many antibiotics
for too many elements ordifferent things like that.
There's that issue.
But there's benefits to all andall is needed and it's just
(43:08):
it's finding that balance andtreating the individual.
So you said it very well there.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Treating you, treating me.
What do I need?
What do you need as anindividual Bastic people?
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Exactly and okay.
So I have one last question,and we've discussed this a
little bit, but really, how doyou combine, like, how do you
practice?
How do you combine yourspiritual knowledge and
integrate that into yourclinical practice when you see
patients?
Speaker 3 (43:47):
No different than what you're doing right now.
You are who you are.
There's no difference in spiritworld and this world, medical
world, martial art world.
There's no different.
Everything for me is aspiritual practice.
I'm learning how to do salsadancing, but I do a Tai Chi
(44:10):
style.
It works for me.
Do who you are the enlogamationof everything you learn and
true to your nature.
Be true to yourself no matterwhat other people say.
No other people do Be true toyourself and move from there.
(44:33):
Everything will you know it'snot what you do.
Everything will come.
Everything will come.
Everything will manifest itself.
They're going to get well.
They're not going to get well.
They love you, they don't likeyou, they hate you.
None of it is important.
Be who you are from your heart.
(44:54):
Combine with your intellect,with your mind.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Well said, okay, I just.
I have a couple more questionsfor you to start on.
If somebody is more interestedin studying Taoism or finding
out more about this, how do theyfind you or what are you
offering for our audience ifthey can get more information or
find your classes, if you'redoing Zoom classes right now, or
(45:23):
different resources?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
If you definitely listen to you, you will tell
them all that they need to know.
What do they call it Media,blah, blah blah.
So I have Zoom classes, I havein-house classes, but one of the
things that I learned with myteacher is that just think of
(45:48):
your teacher.
Just think of what you want tolearn, it'll come to you.
There are many styles of Daoism, many styles, just like many
styles of music or dancing orpoetry.
You need to find what comes toyou and what fits you, what
works for you.
(46:08):
You can certainly Google me andfind out what I offer, but I'm
just one guy in this universe.
You may want to find somebodyclose to you.
You may want to look at my pastpresentation of Zoom of Daoist
talk.
We did it for years and myworkshop.
I recorded it so you canactually capture that and listen
(46:29):
to it.
It's very nice stuff.
It's a combination of manykinds of thinking that's been
churned in the process anddelivered.
So you can do that.
You can look at the Zoom onTuesday.
We might do in-house in thehospital sponsored by Summit
Hospital, the Terraria campus inBerkeley.
So in-house, for those who livearound here, we're going to do
(46:54):
a hybrid.
We're going to do Zoom andQigong in-house with that.
I teach a Qigong class onSaturday, I teach a Tai Chi
class, I teach a Judo class.
All that should be the websiteto get them to get it.
If you're in this neighborhood,where are you anyway?
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Michelle, I'm based in Washington state, so I'm on
the West Coast.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
You're the person to see me.
It takes a little bit of effort, so this is the best way.
Zoom is a good way.
Look at some of my past stuff.
I think I have some publishedstain on something I forgot
where it was.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
You had some great meditation videos too that I
found on your website, so thatwas a great sequence, and I'll
be sure to list that as well.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
I also have a Gong thing, a meditation Gong.
I love the Gong.
The singing Gong is like a niceinstrument that takes you
places.
You can travel with it.
It takes you and if you playedit with yourself, you have to
resonate with the Gong and theGong will tell you I like you,
no, I don't like you.
(47:59):
No, I don't like this part ofyou Very clearly as you play the
Gong.
Everything who you are manifestin the Gong.
That speaks back to you.
But that's another way ofmeditating, find some teachers,
read some books.
There are three ways to learn.
Number one teacher.
Number two scriptures, meaningwhat you hear, what you see,
(48:24):
what you learn written, so onand so forth.
Number three most important partIntuitive, the dog.
You know it because you know,nobody's taught you, you just
know.
Those are the three ways.
Find a teacher.
Many teachers Find some thingsto look at, to read, to listen
(48:49):
to.
And there was three Kill intoyourself and absorb the
knowledge that comes to you.
Three ways to learn Excellent.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Well, thank you for coming on today and explaining
the unexplained Also, and Ithink this is a great seed to
plan really for our audience toget that knowledge.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Thank you for opening this mindset for people and
allowing them to explore adifferent world.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, thank you.
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