April 11, 2024 • 61 mins
Venturing deep into the Belizean rainforest, we're guided by the wisdom of Dr. Rosita Arvigo, a visionary in the realm of natural healing and ethnobotany. Our latest episode paints a vivid portrait of her life-altering journey to an apprentice of Don Eligio Panti, a revered Maya shaman healer. Through Rosita's narrative, we trace the delicate dance of blending ancient Mayan practices crafting a holistic approach to wellness that thrives on the synergy of spiritual and physical healing.
The tapestry of stories Rosita shares is rich with the threads of cultural exchange, the spiritual depth of Maya traditions, and the laughter that often accompanies healing. Picture the morning ritual of collecting jungle herbs and the intricate art of Mayan abdominal massage. Rosita's recounting of her mentorship under Don Eligio is not just an academic study; it's a heartwarming journey through shared humanity, where humor warms the soul, and the wisdom of the ancients is infused into every treatment and teaching.
This episode is a treasure trove for anyone interested in the intersection of tradition and science, as Rosita also delves into her contributions to ethnobotanical research and the global dissemination of Mayan healing techniques. From the unveiling of "Rainforest Remedies" and "Messages from the Gods" to her passion for teaching and preserving this rich heritage, Rosita's conviction in the power of nature's pharmacy is as inspiring as the lush backdrop of Belize itself. Whether you're drawn to the spiritual, intrigued by plant medicine, or simply in love with the idea of a life intertwined with the natural world, this conversation is a gateway to a different perspective on health and healing.
Want to watch the video version of the interview? Click here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Michele Burklund (00:05):
Welcome to the podcast Medicine Untold and
come with me on a journey tothe unexplored side of medicine,
where we speak with rebeldoctors, radical herbalists,
unorthodox healers and patientswho have healed themselves.
Explore the intersectionbetween science and spirituality
and discover the power withinyou.
(00:26):
I'm your host, Dr.
Michele Burklund, licensednaturopathic doctor, botanical
alchemist and practicingphysician.
Everyone welcome today.
Today we have Dr.
Rosita Arvigo with us.
Today we have Dr Rosita Arvigowith us and I am going to
(00:48):
introduce you to our audience sothey can get an understanding
of your whole background.
So Dr Rosita Arvigo is a doctorof naprapathy, ethnobotanist,
spiritual healer and author ofsix books on traditional healing
of Central America.
Dr Arvigo has lived among Mayain San Ignacio, Belize, for the
past 35 years.
(01:09):
For 13 of those years, sheapprenticed with the most famous
Maya shaman healer, Don EligioPanti, who was born in Guatemala
.
Not only has Rosita's life keptMaya medicine alive, but she
has been instrumental incataloging and preserving
thousands of healing plants andtrees of Belize through her work
(01:33):
in the New York BotanicalGarden and the Belize
Ethnobotany Project.
So welcome today.
I'm excited to have you.
Thank you.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (01:42):
I love being here.
Thanks, the monkeys outsidejust started.
So if you hear that, it's not amonster, it's just a howler
monkey.
Dr. Michele Burklund (01:51):
Oh, that's great.
Now, that adds to the ambiance,I think.
So that kind of leads me intothe first question too.
So I want to hear about how youended up in Belize, because I
know that you moved your family,you purchased land and you had
a vision.
So I want to hear about how youended up in Belize, because I
know that you moved your family,you purchased land and you had
a vision.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (02:13):
So I kind of want to hear about how you ended
up where you are in Belizeafter living seven years in
Guerrero, Mexico, with theNahuatl people, where I first
began my serious study onhealing and medicinal plants
after graduating from theCollege of Naprapathy.
(02:34):
It was in the 1980s and in1980s there was a push by the
FDA to discredit and arrestalternative healers and I just
felt like that was a veryuncomfortable environment for a
(02:54):
newly graduated doctor of analternative type of medicine,
naprapathy, even though we hadbeen granted licensure since
1910, it really felt oppressivepolitically and so I said to my
new, brand new husband at thetime you know, I really feel
(03:17):
like I want to go live in acountry where medicinal plants,
traditional healing andalternative medicine is not
against the law.
Also, as an alternativephysician, I am a dedicated
vegetarian, natural foodadvocate and I feel so serious
(03:41):
about organic food.
I'm willing to do what it takesto grow food all year long, and
in the tropics you can't dothat and I'm sure you know that
in other parts of the world andin other parts of America that's
not possible.
There's too much winter.
So for a year-round growingseason and medical freedom.
(04:03):
Then I had a friend in Belizewho said you know, right next to
us is a jolly piece of land, asthis British gentleman said,
and we'd love for you to be ourneighbor.
So my husband and I actuallybought 32 acres of uncleared
jungle along the Macau Riveralong the Macau River unseen
(04:30):
before we arrived in Belizeafter graduating in 1982.
And so we have been here eversince.
So it's about 42 years that wehave lived here together.
Dr. Michele Burklund (04:38):
Wow, what an adventure to think you were.
You were the original pioneers.
Like.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (04:43):
You bought it sight unseen and then you went
for it there, yeah, and then itwas a very, very long, arduous
process of clearing the trees,clearing the land, and this was
a high bush rainforest.
It's so emotionally painful todo that.
(05:08):
As a plant lover, it was reallyhard for me to spend a couple
of months killing plants andtrees, but I learned that you
must do it.
If you live in the tropics andour house to this day is still
in the middle of a jungle, andif you have trees too close to
(05:29):
the house, when a big wind or ahurricane comes, the tree falls
on your house.
So had to have a home withtrees that are no further no
closer to us than the length oftheir of their trunk, if they
were to fall yeah, so that's.
Dr. Michele Burklund (05:50):
That's some clearing.
But yeah, it makes sense too,you can't take that risk, right.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (05:55):
So we had to do it.
We did, and then, ever sincethen, we've always been
extremely careful about how many, how many trees we take down,
because we're in the middle of a500-acre rainforest reserve.
But occasionally it's necessaryBuilding a road, building a
house, expanding your space.
Dr. Michele Burklund (06:20):
So do you have a clinical practice still
down there too?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (06:22):
I did so do you have a clinical practice
still down there too.
I did.
My husband and I practicedtogether for about 42 years in
San Ignacio.
We had a family practice asdoctors of nephropathy but
because we're in Central America, women prefer to be treated by
women.
It's body work and there's someundressing involved, so it's
(06:47):
obvious that women would preferto be treated by women.
It's body work and there's someundressing involved, so it's
obvious that women would preferto be treated by women.
So I always treated women,infants and children.
My husband treated men and boys.
Occasionally there was acrossover, but not very often,
and we ran our clinic in thesmall town of San Ignacio as
family practitioners and usingour skills as naprapaths.
(07:12):
My husband is also a doctor ofnaprapathy the Bach flower
remedies and herbal remedies anda lot that my mentor, don ,
taught me as well lot that mymentor, Don Eligio Panti, taught
me as well.
Dr. Michele Burklund (07:29):
Wow, that's great.
So you could integrate a lot ofthe treatments and modalities
that you used during that timeas well.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (07:34):
In freedom as well.
That was really extremelyimportant to both of us, and we
actually did have a nephropathiccolleague who was arrested by a
government agency forpracticing medicine without a
license, even though he was alicensed doctor of nephropathy.
(07:54):
So it feels like old fashionednews now, but it was a big deal
in the 1980s for alternativephysicians and that's primarily
why we left the country.
Yeah, and the wanderlust.
Dr. Michele Burklund (08:10):
Yeah, I mean, the adventure sounds fun
too.
I know I was down in Belize, inSan Ignacio I think, back in
2009, 2010.
So I searched for you then butyou were actually in the States
giving a speech, so I missed youduring that trip.
But I got a feel for the townand everything and how amazing
it is there.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (08:29):
Yeah, about 10 miles outside of San Ignacio,
on the same river that runsthrough San Ignacio, the Macal
River.
So when I was studying with DonEligio it was a walk across the
river, or get canoed across theriver and then walk a mile
(08:50):
through the jungle and then fivemiles on the logging road to
get to San Antonio from where Ilive.
Dr. Michele Burklund (08:59):
And did you walk most of the time?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (09:01):
Okay, oh well , I've never been a driver, I
have always walked, and I walkmost everywhere I go to these
days.
Dr. Michele Burklund (09:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's
the best way.
It's impressive too.
So my, my next my next kind ofquestion kind of ties into that,
because I want to know how youcrossed paths with and how
you found him or he found you,or you found each other and you
started that apprenticeship.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (09:30):
I think we found each other.
I was asking around who couldteach me about the medicinal
plants of Belize.
I had learned a lot ofmedicinal plants of Mexico, but
always been an Americanherbalist self-taught of Mexico,
but always been an Americanherbalist self-taught.
And now that I'm living in aforeign country and I actually
(09:51):
have a clinical practice, Ineeded to study with someone who
was really an expert.
And everyone gave me the sameanswer oh, you have to go see
the old man in San Antonio, youhave to go see El Mero, which
means the very one, he's themost authentic, he's numero uno,
he's number one.
And then the ladies all saidwatch out, he's a lecher, don't
(10:17):
get too close to him, watch out,that old man is a lech.
And that never was true.
So within a matter of weeks ofopening my clinic, I come back
from the marketplace carrying abag of mangoes and there's an
old gentleman sitting on myveranda outside my clinic and I
(10:38):
thought he was there to see meas a client and I said I'll be
out in a moment, let me put downmy bags, freshen up and I will
come back out.
And so I greeted him and whenour hands touched I shook his
hand.
I have to say there was anelectric charge that transferred
(10:58):
between us and that hand was socalloused and hard and it just
felt like such an expert hand.
I never forget the feeling oftouching that hand.
So I invited him in and Ithought he was there for a
treatment and he said no, no, no, I'm not here for a treatment.
(11:20):
I came to see if you have anyflor de tilo.
I came to see if you have anyflor de tilo.
I heard that you're an Americanherbalist in town and I wonder
if you have any flor de tilo,which is linden flower.
Tilia americana happens to beone of my favorite herbs and so
I still had some that I hadbrought from Chicago with me.
(11:43):
However, there was a realproblem with the herbs molding
in these glass jars because ofthe climate.
So I said I do, actually I dohave fluoridated, and I pulled
down the jar and he looked atall the other glass jars of
herbs in my clinic and he saidhmm, tienes problema, you've got
(12:04):
a problem.
Your herbs are rotting.
And he said you can't keep themin glass jars.
He said don't you see themoisture inside there dripping
down on your, on your herbs, andthat's why they're molding.
You must put them in paper bagsand take them outside to dry in
the sun every once in a while.
Well, I was so impressed and Isaid well, hello, I mean, that's
(12:30):
really wonderful, thank you somuch for that piece of advice.
And he said oh, I'm , I'm theold Maya herbalist from San
Antonio.
Maybe you've heard of me.
Well, I certainly had heard ofhim, and so we had a lovely
conversation and then he lookedat my treatment table and he
kind of went oh my neck, oh myneck.
(12:52):
And I said get on the table,I'll give you a napropathic
treatment.
So I did, and I felt like hewas very happy and impressed
about that.
And then I gave him his bag oflinden flower tea because he
said, now that he was a widow,he was a widower, he was having
(13:12):
a very hard time sleeping aloneat nighttime.
Now, hilarious, funny,funny person.
He truly was the archetype ofthe Dr Clown.
And he said when my wife wasalive, I slept in the hammock
with my blanket of guts and whenI turned around, she turned
(13:36):
around and pulled me close toher and kept me warm all night
long.
Now that my wife is dead, Isleep alone in my hammock.
I have a blanket, but when Iturn over, that blanket falls to
the floor and there I am, oldEligio, all alone, shaking alone
, cold at nighttime, where itused to be when my wife was
(13:58):
alive.
I was caressed and kissed allnight long.
So now I can't sleep.
That's why I need the lindenflower tea.
So I gave him his tea and I saidwell, , could I come visit you
in your village?
And he said see, yes, you cancome there.
I will be neither more nor lessthan you see right here in
(14:20):
front of you.
So I went back the next weekand he didn't remember me.
I went back the next week andhe didn't remember me.
I went back the next week, hedidn't remember me.
He had already had prettyserious cataracts, so he was not
able to see faces very well.
He said by that time the facewas kind of like a cloud.
(14:41):
It was difficult to make outthe distinguishing features.
So I continued to go one day ofevery week just to visit.
I swept out the courtyard.
I would carry a bucket of water.
Sometimes I could go out andcollect herds for him, because I
was already familiar with a lotof the plants of Central
(15:04):
America not specifically Belize,however so I might go out and
get a pasote.
I remember, for instance, whenit was raining, he was already
arthritic and somewhat rheumatic.
He was 90 years old when Ifirst met him, so he wouldn't go
out in the rain, but I would goin the rain and collect a
pasote, which is the Mexicanworm seed for childhood
(15:28):
parasites, and he was impressedthat I could find a pasote.
I collected firewood, and sothis goes on for an entire year
and several times without beinga pest.
I asked if he would teach meand he said no.
And I said why?
Why not?
And he said because you're agringa and everything that I
(15:51):
teach you here will be lost upthere.
And he said the Maya spiritscan't speak English and you
can't study my medicine if youcan't communicate with the Maya
spirits.
I said yeah, but I speakSpanish, and he said well, they
don't speak English.
(16:11):
So the year goes by and I arrivealmost to the day when I first
arrived, and was very early thismorning.
Usually I got there around 11when he was coming back from the
jungle collecting his plants.
This time I got an early rideand I was there by 6.30 am
(16:32):
standing at his doorstep, andwhen the door opened I stood up
and he kind of gave me a lookthat was oh my God, she's here
again.
He kind of gave me a look thatwas oh my God, she's here again.
And when I saw that look, ofcourse my heart sunk and I said
(16:52):
I'm never coming back again.
This will be the last day.
I certainly had no intentions ofbeing an annoyance to this
charming, delightful old man andso I said where are you going
today?
What are you doing?
He said I don't have time foryou.
I said what are you doing andwhere are you going?
Maybe I could help?
And he said I have to goharvest my corn.
I've had so many patients allweek long there hasn't been time
(17:16):
to harvest corn.
It's going to rain, the cornwill start sprouting, I'll lose
my whole harvest.
90 years old and he's stillharvesting corn, carrying it
home on his back.
So I said well, don Aligio, Iknow how to harvest corn.
And he said you, he gave me oneof those Maya baskets with a
hand woven belt here and thebasket hangs down.
(17:48):
Basket is just about below yoursacrum.
He has the basket and I have abasket and we trudge probably it
was more than 60, 75 minutesoutside of his little village to
get to his cornfield.
And we're standing in front ofthe cornfield and all I can see
(18:08):
are trees.
And he said, well, here's mycorn, and I'm like corn.
I don't see anything but forest.
And he said, no, we have to geton our bellies and crawl
through this piece of forest.
I keep it hidden because peoplesteal corn and pumpkins.
So, okay, so we're down on ourbellies now, crawling through
this piece of jungle, and I'dsay it was 20 or 30 feet
(18:33):
crawling.
And then when I came out, Istood up like this and there is
his cornfield, which is anentire mountain, a mountainside
of corn that he had cleared,planted, cultivated, and now he
was willing to carry home basketby basket.
He could no longer handle ahorse at the age of 90.
(18:55):
So that didn't stop him fromgrowing a full crop of food for
his family.
He had a grandson with ninechildren and his wife, so his
harvest was the food for 13people for an entire year.
So we begin harvesting corn.
He points to a row and he goesdown another row and all morning
(19:20):
long I'm pulling corn, throwingit in the basket, emptying my
basket, making a pile.
He's doing the same somewhereelse in the cornfield.
And then at one point he'scoming this way down the same
corn row, and I'm coming thisway and we meet in the middle
and he looks at my pile of cornand he looks at my basket
(19:42):
getting empty, which is as fullas his, and he said are you
married?
Yes, domino, I'm married and Ihave three children.
And he said, oh, like that.
Oh, so we continue harvestingcorn.
And then it's about maybe 11,1130.
(20:02):
So we continue harvesting cornand then it's about maybe 11,
1130.
And because we're standing on amountaintop, the sun is just
coming up over that mountain and, was sharing an orange,
peeled it and I gave him halfthe orange and he said to me
when he stood up, and when hestood up there, the sun rose.
Here's him and here's the sunjust behind him, and it was an
(20:27):
absolute golden medallion ofbeaming light behind him.
It was quite magical.
And he looked at me and he saiddo you promise, if I take the
time to teach you, you will takecare of my people when I'm gone
?
Yes yes, I promise.
And so that was the day that itall began.
(20:49):
And on the way home he saidthis little plant is called the.
Now you recognize it by itslittle red flowers that come out
in August.
That this vine over here is isIshkibish, and we use that one
for excessive menstruation.
This is the gumbo limbo tree.
We use that for bad skinconditions.
(21:11):
And it was like music.
Literally it was like being inan orchestra hall to the most
gorgeous music and all the wayhome he just kept planting up,
pointing out trees and plants.
And so after that I was therefor the next seven years, three
days, four nights and three daysof every week.
(21:33):
Thank I'm grateful that to myhusband who kept our daughter.
She was still probably seven atthe time and my neighbor would
let her go over there and playwith the other kids a lot, so it
would not have been possiblewithout someone to look after my
child, my last little child, mydaughter Crystal.
(21:55):
So four nights and three daysof every week after that.
For seven years I was with himcollecting his medicinal plants,
helping him take care of hisclients, doing a lot of the work
that requires young eyesightbecause he also had cataracts.
(22:16):
So he was rheumatic arthriticand he had cataracts.
So he truly needed an assistantto be there as often as
possible, and because I wasfluent in Spanish, I was able to
also communicate with hisclients.
So then that was the first sevenyears.
After that I returned every onefull day of every week until
(22:40):
finally Don Eligio passed awayat 103.
So it was a full 13 yearapprenticeship with him, and the
number 13 is a very highspiritual number.
In the Maya system it'sconsidered one of the major
cyclical endings cyclicalendings?
Dr. Michele Burklund (23:03):
Wow, and it seems like he was waiting for
the right person to that.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (23:08):
He he tested you and he wanted to see.
The spirits tested me as well.
Because the very, very firstday that I'm now his official
student, at his clinic shows upthe very worst, scariest client
I saw in all the 13 years.
It was like you think you wantto do this.
(23:30):
Well, let us know if you'reready, because Don Aligio worked
very closely with thebenevolent, the nine benevolent
Maya spirits.
They were his mentors really.
They taught him because henever went to school, never
learned to read or write, sothey taught him a great deal in
(23:51):
dream visions and it always camefrom the benevolent Maya
spirits.
So on the very, very first day,the very first client that
shows up, don Alicio said waspossessed by the devil.
El Principio de la Oscuridad,the Prince of Darkness, has
(24:12):
possessed this woman and I haveto tell you she was very scary.
Her eyes could not focus, shewas drooling and kind of
growling, not focused.
She was drooling and kind ofgrowling, growling like a dog,
and I could feel the hair on theback.
I never felt that in my lifebefore.
I've read about it, but I neveractually felt the hair on the
(24:33):
back of my neck stand up andquiver like that.
All the hair on my arms stoodup and quivered, and it was so
he treated her.
He was sprinkling her with holywater from the Catholic church.
He brought Copal and he saidprayers for her.
He sent his, her family homewith plants to do spiritual
(24:56):
bathing.
And that night, sleeping in thehammock in his little cement
house that was probably 10 by 10.
And it's divided into two rooms, I'm sleeping on one side of a
curtain in a hammock and he'ssleeping on the other side of
the curtain in a hammock.
(25:16):
And in the middle of the nightI kind of wake up and I'm aware
of feeling quite frightened andthat really I should go home.
In the middle of the night Ikind of wake up and I'm aware of
feeling quite frightened andthat really I should go home in
the morning, that this is notwhat I signed up for.
I'm not interested in theprince of darkness, I only want
to learn about medicinal plantsat night.
(25:36):
So I'm lying in my hammock andI'm just like full of
consternation, fear and worry.
Finally I fall asleep and I havethis dream.
And that was one of themagnificent things about being
in Don Aligio's presence and inhis little thatch hut was the
(25:57):
presence of these magical beingsthat were around all the time,
little earth spirits, mayaspirits, and they bring dream
visions.
So I finally fall asleep and inthis dream I see, first of all
Don Aligio used rue, that hesqueezed in water to give her to
(26:18):
drink.
He used copal and he sent herhome with batches of marigold
flowers to do the spiritualbaths.
So in this dream I'm lying inthe hammock and I see myself all
my face crunched up and worried, and suddenly these four giant
(26:39):
angels appear all around me.
One is kind of shimmering green, and I know that's the angel of
Ruth.
One on the other side is golden, and I know that is the angel
of Kopal.
And then there's a yellowishone, green, yellowish green, and
(26:59):
that I know is the angel of orthe spirit of miracle.
And then there's one at my headthat's kind of like a saint
michael figure.
He's got a shield and the staffand he's kind of like guarding,
as though he's saying just takeone step, just take one step
toward her and you'll see whathappens.
And nothing was said, nothingwas done, except this vision.
(27:23):
And all of this light of allfour of these angelic beings was
beaming towards me, lying inthe hammock, all tightened up
and worried, and I never worriedagain after that.
I felt, whatever happens, thatwas a very clear message that I
(27:44):
will be protected.
It was a lot of the spiritualityof very difficult to
comprehend in the beginning, notbeing a Maya person, not being
familiar with the concept ofbenevolent spirits, with the
concept of benevolent spirits asopposed to malevolent spirits,
and so, yeah, that took quite abit of time to adjust to the
(28:09):
reality of his practice, beingboth spiritual and physical.
He had as many clients forspiritual healing as he had for
physical healing.
In the physical realm it wasvery much like anybody's
clinical practice Lots of tummyache, lots of skin conditions,
(28:32):
high blood pressure, diabetes,backache what you'd see in any
natural healing clinic.
Then, on the spiritual side,there was a lot of PTSD, which
is called susto, which isconsidered a proper spiritual
disease, the PTSD that we thinkof here.
It's, in this lady's case,possession by evil spirits.
(29:05):
So all of that was a big bucketof new things all at once in my
life.
But I had come to so admire him, I totally trusted him to be a
good person and that all ofthose stories that were told
about him being alleged.
None of that was true at all.
(29:26):
He was always, always agentleman, a delight and a very
entertaining personality what anamazing experience.
Dr. Michele Burklund (29:37):
And you had, you had those signs early
on to the, the visitations inyour first, your first day,
which yeah, can.
One of the most powerful dreamsI ever had in that little um
magic hut and um, yeah, to meit's so interesting because I
feel like spirituality and andmedicine and healing go together
(30:02):
.
They can't really be separateand I'm not too familiar with
like the Maya philosophy that.
Can you explain that a littlemore of?
Yeah, that blends together,sure.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (30:14):
It comes about Always done.
Alicia had to determine if aperson's ailment whether it be
headache, tummy ache, backachewas due to a physical cause or a
spiritual cause.
Sometimes he could determinethat by interview, asking
questions, getting answers.
But he also was in possessionof the magic instrument of the
(30:40):
Maya spirits called the Sastun.
Sastun is the name of the bookthat I wrote about sastun, my
apprenticeship with the mayahealer.
So sas is a word in maya thatmeans light, and mirror tune
means stone or age, so light ofthe ages or stone of the ages,
(31:06):
and it is a translucent crystalball and that is the instrument
that get.
That gives don gives othe ability to contact the maya
spirits, to be the um, theintermediary between the
physical and the spiritual, andto request very uh you know,
(31:29):
very special healing from themaya spirits for his clients.
Through that he used thatsastun for for divination, to
determine if this is a physicalailment or a spiritual ailment,
and also for incantation.
There he had a.
(31:49):
It had always been a practice inMaya medicine to do
enchantments over photographsand primarily most of what I saw
him do was to enchant youngpeople who wouldn't study.
Usually it was a grandmotherwho brought a picture of a
teenager.
(32:09):
In Belize everybody has to payfor their education, so it's
often a great sacrifice for theparents and the grandparents.
So the grandmother would bringa photograph of young Jose who's
15.
His parents are making a greatdeal of sacrifice for his
education but he's lazy.
(32:29):
And so the grandmother wouldsay this boy is lazy, I want you
to make him study, I want youto make him a serious boy so
that he grows up and he has agood career because he got a
good education.
That was mostly what I sawthe sastun for enchantment, as
(32:50):
well as blessings on people whowere ill through photographs.
And then he also made amulets,little sewn up pieces of black
cloth with sacred objects inthere.
And when he twirled his sastuninside of a little clay jar with
(33:12):
a special Maya chant around andaround that amulet, it gave it
a very special spiritual charge.
That was a protector orsomething that could protect you
or something that could drawgood fortune and ward off evil.
You know that old term we readin the old herbal books the ward
(33:37):
off evil.
So that was also the purpose ofthose enchanted amulets.
Dr. Michele Burklund (33:46):
Wow and I was reading somewhere, I think I
heard it that both of you sawquite a bit of patients per day,
Like there was a lot of peoplecoming to the clinic that you
saw.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (33:58):
Yeah, a regular day was anywhere from 10
to 30 clients, so over a week,over a week, there would be, you
know, over 100 clients, allkept in bean sacks in one little
(34:24):
hut that was separate just tostore his herbs and for a place
for clients to sleep.
Some clients stayed with DonAligio three or four days was
very common.
He was also a shelter forbattered women.
Women knew they could go livewith find protection.
(34:44):
So while I was there there werea series of women who came to
live with Don Elichio , untilthings sort of, you know,
resettled back at home if theyever did.
But he helped them, you know,with the food, he gave them a
place to stay and comfort andspiritual baths, and so, yeah,
(35:08):
he was a charming, delightful,generous, lovely person.
Dr. Michele Burklund (35:14):
Yeah, it sounds like I mean, that's real
medicine, helping people in thatsense.
So yeah, that's a reallybeautiful thing.
Yeah, so how did you guyscollect?
Did you collect the herbs too,if you went through so many
herbs per week?
So you saw all the patients andthen you had to go out into the
jungles and no, we went out inthe morning.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (35:36):
We couldn't do it in the afternoon.
It's too hot, so we would leaveat six or 6.30.
He would have a cup of coffeeand milk with a few biscuits, I
would have a cup of hotchocolate and I don't know,
maybe usually I had somecinnamon crackers with me and
that's what we ate for themorning.
(35:58):
And then by 7.30, we're in thehigh jungle and so we would
collect vines, roots, barks,heavy work up in the high bush
areas and then carrying it downon our backs in those Maya
baskets.
And then on the way home we hada sack each of us to collect
(36:18):
leaves for the herbal baths.
So in the basket was vine roots, roots and barks, the heavy
medicine, and then in the bagswe carried home it would be a 50
pound sack full of leaves.
Doesn't weigh 50 pounds butit's big.
All the way home we would becollecting plants, and every
(36:38):
time we took anything from aplant we had to say the prayer
of faith and thanksgiving.
He always said if you don't saythe prayer of faith and
thanksgiving to the spirit ofthe plant, the spirit of the
plant does not follow you homebut stays in the earth and
therefore, the healing is neveras effective without the prayer.
Dr. Michele Burklund (37:03):
I've been thankful for the plant and
everything it gives to thepeople each day too, yeah, and I
really.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (37:11):
I spent a lot of time on that concept,
thinking about it, and I feellike, yes, every plant that
we're looking at is a spiritualbeing in a physical body, just
like us is a spiritual being ina physical body, just like us.
So he introduced me to thatconcept back in the 1980s when I
(37:32):
first started working with him,and I've held that ever since.
Since then, I have never, ever,taken a leaf or a flower from a
plant without giving the prayerof faith and thanksgiving.
It would be like I couldn't doit.
I don't know whatgiving.
It would be like I couldn't doit.
I don't know what it would belike because I couldn't do it
(37:53):
yeah, no, that's, that's reallybeautiful.
Dr. Michele Burklund (37:55):
I remember , um, in some of my botanical
medicine classes, some of theteachers would say, like take a
piece of hair, take something,and have it as an offering to to
the plants too.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (38:04):
So kind of similar in that, when he
introduced, introduced me to thegoddess Ischel this is one of
her images as a young maiden,because the first day we went to
collect medicine, he waslooking for his zorio, the skunk
root that he used a great dealof, and he found a plant that
(38:26):
was the biggest one he'd everseen in 50 years of collecting
on the same mountainside.
And he said what good fortune.
And that's because you're here,like me, why is it because I'm
here?
And he said because the goddessIschel smiles on the man herd
collector if he walks the junglewith a womb.
(38:48):
And I said who's Ischel?
I had never heard her namebefore and that set me on a
25-year journey to discover asmuch as I could about this
wonderful goddess Ischel.
She's the goddess of medicine,healing, medicinal plants, the
(39:09):
moon goddess, the earth goddess.
She's the goddess of fertility,childbirth and also the creator
, the creator goddess, with hermale partner, itzamna,
fascinating that the Maya faithbelieves that the creator is a
man and a woman.
I mean, how could it beotherwise?
(39:30):
Exactly exactly.
Dr. Michele Burklund (39:34):
Yeah, that's a beautiful introduction
too, and I know I read somethingabout like the skunk root and
how he that was one of hisfavorite plants also and had a
lot of spiritual significanceand maybe tied into that too, or
you guys collected it togetheryeah, the skunk root was a plant
(39:56):
that he used a lot of and itcould only be found in the very
high, high bush jungle.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (40:02):
You would never find it in second or third
growth forest, could only beway up in the primary forest
there, where you know it's.
It's real rainforest with 40 or50 for trees, undisturbed for
generations.
And the skunk root um um taiche in maya.
(40:25):
It is used for those veryserious type of spiritual
ailments like curses and thelong-term effects of envy and
jealousy.
And it is very much like thatdark angel that I saw in that
first dream.
That might even have been thespirit of zarrio in that first
(40:47):
dream.
That might even have been thespirit of Zorio in that black
suit with the shield and thespear.
So because in Central America,unfortunately, envy is very
common and when people are theobjects of envy it really does
make you sick.
You feel quite depressed, youfeel discouraged, you can be
(41:09):
physiologically sick, you can beemotionally sick, you can lose
sleep, can't digest properly allthe effects of envy and
jealousy and in fact some peoplecan die from it.
It's that serious but theremedy is to say a series of
Maya prayers into the pulse.
(41:30):
Old Maya doctors were alwaysreferred to as pulse doctors
because he could do hisdiagnosis and treatment with the
pulse.
He, like all of us in clinicalpractice, would take a general
history from a client.
I remember a lady who came fora reproductive disorder,
(41:53):
menstrual disorder, and he askedher several questions and then
he took her pulse and he saidwell, you didn't tell me, you
had surgery three months ago.
And he could be from the pulseright.
So into the pulse.
For this concept of thespiritual disease like envy,
jealousy and curses, he wouldsay three prayers in maya to the
(42:18):
in the right pulse, threeprayers in the left and three
prayers over the forehead.
Burn kop often have a drink ofrue squeezed in water and then
given herbal baths to take athome.
So that was the treatment forthe spiritual disease.
(42:38):
But the and drinking sorry,drinking the Zario tea as well
for nine days, sometimes one cupa day for nine days, sometimes
three cups a day, depending onthe length and the severity of
the curse that a person had orhow much jealousy one was
exposed to.
And that was quite a revelationto me at how devastating it is
(43:04):
to be the object of envy andjealousy.
It is really emotionally andphysiologically devastating to
the system.
And worked.
And then it would be time togive the amulet that would be
enchanted with his sastun, forprotection against envy and
(43:26):
jealousy.
Dr. Michele Burklund (43:29):
Yeah, that's so interesting too.
I learned about that a lot whenI was living in Greece, because
the older women there wouldcall it the evil eye and it
would be just as destructive andthey would discuss it in the
same caliber as you'rediscussing too, of how
destructive it can be for thatperson and be careful of the
evil eye, and so it's evil eyeis right in there, in that, in
(43:52):
that category, and then skunkroot because it was so
eliminating, so cleansing andeliminating.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (44:01):
He also put it into the female tonic formula
for women with difficultmenstruation, into the female
tonic formula for women withdifficult menstruation, for
women who were having troubleconceiving so often gave it to
people for other purposes, butits primary purpose was as an
organ eliminator, as kind oflike an organ flush, almost like
(44:23):
a purge, but not an intestinalpurge, and then also for those
spiritual diseases.
And I still use it and collectit to this day.
Dr. Michele Burklund (44:34):
So do you always take it internally, or do
you leave it around the house,or always internally?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (44:40):
Always internally.
Yes, I mean yeah, I carry it ina little pouch, sometimes as a
protector it's multiple uses,but as a tea would be one and
then also carrying it around inthe pouch in an amulet.
That would be protective aswell.
Dr. Michele Burklun (45:00):
Interesting .
Can you tell me a little bitmore about your most memorable
experience?
I know it's probably hard tocome up with one.
It sounds like you've sharedquite a bit, but do you have
like one story or one that youreally want to share with our
audience, something that reallytouched you?
I wonder it is.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (45:24):
It's very hard for me to put down one
thing.
I could tell a couple ofstories.
After I started working withof the word got out that I
was working with this old Mayashaman, I was contacted by the
television station if they couldcome and do an interview for
Belize television, if they couldcome and do an interview for
(45:46):
Belize television, and I toldhim what it would involve and
what the request was and heagreed.
So they came and we filmed allday long.
And now Don Alijo down infront of a television in his
whole life.
He had a friend in another town.
His area was a village.
He had a friend in a town notvery far from where he was, so
(46:11):
he went to visit and she had abrand new television.
So for the first time in hislife he sat down to watch a
television.
And guess who was on?
Dona Lucia.
And he's watching the program.
And he said that machine didn'tforget a single thing.
We said that day Just that DonElichio was such a jokester.
(46:41):
I'd say that would be probablymy favorite part of working with
him, besides meeting the Mayaspirits.
But he was such a funny guy andhe always said over and over
again most people think too much, get them to laugh and half
their trouble and sickness willgo away, and the blessed herbs
(47:02):
will do the rest.
So he loved to make peoplelaugh.
I remember one occasion wherehe had been rather ill.
When I got there he had a badcough and so I gave him a
massage, I patted his chest,gave him some cough syrup and I
put him to bed.
(47:23):
And then a lady came to see himas a as a client, and I said
I'm sorry he's sleeping, hehasn't been very well.
You won't be able to see himtoday, maybe if you came back
tomorrow.
And she said Well, if he knowsit's me, he'll get up.
And I said no, I'm not wakingthe old man up.
He's been coughing for days.
(47:43):
He hasn't been sleeping fordays.
Finally he's getting some rest.
I'm not waking him up.
So she sat like this staring atme and I said maybe I could
help you.
I'm Don Alicia's student, I'vealready learned a lot.
Maybe I could be of someservice.
And she looked at me with thatbig frown and she said no, I
(48:05):
come to see the trunk, not thebranch.
She said it's so loud.
She woke him up.
Don alicio gets up and he comesstaggering out through the
curtains and he's got his littlewhite shorts on and the little
shirt that his wife sewed forhim before she passed away.
(48:26):
And he, he says oh, rosita,rosita, I died, I died and I
went to heaven.
Now he starts his routine.
I died and I went to heaven andin my dream, there there was St
Peter at the gate and St Petertook one look at me and he said
when have you been, old man?
Get in here.
Your number should have beencalled a long time ago.
(48:49):
And I said to St Peter now, hold up.
Just a minute.
Before I walk through thosegates, I have to ask you
something Is there dancing?
Is there beer?
Is there women?
And St Peter said dancing beerand women?
No, no, not up here.
And I said to saint peterforget it, I'm going back.
(49:11):
And he looked at this lady.
He said and now, what does thissweet, what does this good lady
want?
And she gave me this.
See, I told you he'd get up ifit was me, so I don't know.
I think that was my favoritepart about .
There was so that his humor andthe fact that dream visions
(49:34):
were just an everyday aspect oflife.
You know, he often woke up andhe said a spirit came to me last
night and explained this aboutthis lady's cough who's been
here for three days.
And in the dream, the Mayaspirit said old man, you don't
really understand this lady'scough.
It's not just a cough, it's alung infection, and you're not
(49:57):
giving her the right herb.
So this is the herb that youneed.
This is how much you shouldgive her.
So, yeah, the aspect of beingtaught in dreams and I think
it's quite fascinating thatthese brilliant geniuses of
(50:18):
Central America, who aretraditional healers, who are the
unlettered heroes of theirgenerations, never learned to
read or write, never went toschool.
When me taking notes in hisclinic about what the patient
had and what herb was given andwriting down the prayers, and he
said oh, they sent you toschool.
(50:41):
I said yeah, they sent me to alot of school.
I sent myself to school and hesaid you'll never learn.
So what?
What do you mean?
I'll never learn, why would yousay that?
And he said that stick and thatpiece of paper that makes your
mind weak.
I never had a stick.
I never had a piece of paper.
(51:02):
But up here it's full, full,full up here, no stick and no
paper.
But I did learn and I did usemy stick and I did use my paper.
I also think that one of themost important things I learned
from service and howservice was such a delight to
(51:29):
him.
There might be a few days whereit was a straggle of one client
and maybe one day out of a yearwhen nobody came.
When nobody came, he was kindof sad and he said have they
forgotten me?
Am I so old that I that I'mgoing to be forgotten?
And but no, he was neverforgotten.
Dr. Michele Burklund (51:51):
So yeah, he, it sounds like he had so
much intuition too.
I mean I, I think the world ofacademia today and being so much
in your brain, you lose touchwith being in nature and
intuition and filling the bodytoo.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (52:09):
He always said somebody comes to me and
they say that they have diabetes.
I might give this person oneplant for diabetes, but the next
person gets a different onebecause I listen, I listen to
what's inside and when, soon asI look at this person, I get a
(52:29):
picture of the plant that Ishould give them.
That's his intuition, of course.
But the next person withdiabetes doesn't get the same
plant because I listen.
He always said I listen.
Dr. Michele Burklund (52:44):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful
experience and such an amazingtrait to learn in medicine too.
Is that side of it, Causethat's an important side?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (52:56):
To have faith in your own intuition.
I don't think you could dospiritual healing without faith
in your intuition.
Dr. Michele Burklund (53:05):
And you have like a.
You have a very interestingpath in medicine too, because
you've kind of created your ownpath with Mayan abdominal
massage and and kind of taken alot of his teachings and and
taught it to other physiciansand practitioners around the
world too.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (53:25):
Well, I mean, I was so incredibly impressed
with , which is a 5,000 yearold massage therapy that dates
way, way back to 3000 BC, andthe fact that it was still in
his hands and that he waswilling to teach me.
(53:46):
And I, as a doctor ofnephropathy, naprapathy spent 10
full years researching, tryingto figure out how that external
massage on the lower part of theabdomen, around the pelvis,
could reposition a malplaceduterus.
How could that be?
(54:07):
And it literally did take 10years to figure out the anatomy,
the physiology and the effectsof an external massage on
replacing the uterus into itsproper position within the
pelvis.
So for reproductive ailments inwomen, numero uno, and then for
(54:28):
all types of digestivecomplaints, it's often a great
deal of tension in the upperabdomen, fear and anxiety.
The diaphragm will tightenright around the solar plexus
(54:51):
and while it's tightening it'scutting down the supply of the
abdominal aorta that goesthrough, like that, through the
muscle of the diaphragm.
And then there's also the venacava and there's the esophagus.
So you have these three majorvessels and I feel that how his
massage was so effective was byrelax, relaxing and releasing
(55:16):
the squeezing and the tensionaround the esophagus and all the
blood supply to the abdominaland pelvic organs was increased
as a result of relaxing thatarea.
And of course we know it's thesolar plexus where everybody
holds anxiety, even babies.
So yeah, it was so impressiveto me and I used it in my own
(55:38):
clinic for 10 years before Ibegan teaching it.
And I began teaching it out ofconcern for women who suffer
with so much menstrual disorderand it was just at the time
where a lot of fertilitychallenges were showing up in
clinical practice all around theworld.
(56:00):
It was quite a phenomenon inthe 90s and in the early turn of
the 21st century.
So I began introducing it as ameans of helping women to
alleviate some of the menstrualdifficulties.
That I mean.
I had clients who were in bedtwo days of every month because
(56:22):
of menstrual pains and I knowthat happens all over the world
and one or two treatments of DonAlicio's external pelvic
massage adios dolor is what hewould say and he also taught me
about the vaginal steams, yonisteams.
That was very important and Iintroduced those into the United
(56:44):
States in the early 1990s.
Now it's kind of extremelypopular, very de rigueur now,
you know, very avant-garde Iguess, but because it works Very
, very effective.
The massage, the herbalremedies that people drink for
cleansing the uterus, and thenalso the Yoni steam together is
(57:10):
a very dynamic treatment for allmanner of female reproductive
problems.
Really works.
So why I had to share?
I had to share with otherpractitioners what I had learned
, trying to help as many peopleas possible.
You are a healer.
(57:30):
You probably know how it is.
Just, we love to help.
Dr. Michele Burklund (57:36):
Yeah, I was always interested in that
too, so I was always going tocome back to you or find you at
some point.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (57:45):
We have teachers all over the world now
through the abdominal therapycollective.
Right now there are classesgoing on in Greece, in England,
new Zealand, australia, theUnited States, belize.
We did a class in Mexico thisyear for the first time.
Last year in January in Nayaritfor the first time last year in
(58:09):
January in Nayarit.
Dr. Michele Burklund (58:11):
Yeah, we have to post that on the website
too, for everybody else to findand to find more information
about this.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (58:15):
Yeah, my website is wwwrositarvigocom and
thenwwwabdominotherapycollectivecom.
Abdominotherapycollectivecomabdominal therapy collective
because we are a collective of12 previous teachers, teachers
(58:36):
who are involved with education,educating the on the abdominal
therapy and Maya, spiritualhealing.
Dr. Michele Burklund (58:45):
Yeah, and it seems like it's at this point
in the world now where it'seven more of a demand, like it's
growing and growing each day,from women's imbalances and
fertility issues are.
I think it's reached a wholenew level, especially recently
too.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (59:01):
Because it works.
It really works.
It's the best tool and I'vebeen a practitioner now about 50
years.
It is the best tool that I haveDElijio Elijio Don Elijio Don
Elijio abdominal massage fordigestive complaints,
reproductive complaints andyou're a clinic.
If you're a clinician you knowthat that covers a lot.
(59:24):
Outside of that is often a lot.
You know other metabolicdisorders but then also the
emotional disorders.
So with his spiritual healingand the massage it is a.
It's a full clinical practiceand you can help almost
everybody.
Dr. Michele Burklund (59:42):
Yeah, no, it sounds amazing and I want to
know, kind of, what are you upto these days, are you?
I know that's part of yourfocus and you put a lot of focus
on help preserving anddocumenting the plants and and a
lot of research in that sensetoo.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (59:56):
So yeah, well , I completed rainforest
remedies 100 healing herbs ofBelize, which is a inexpensive
pocket book for all Belizeans tobe able to use and keep at home
as a regular householdreference.
And then that was with MichaelBallick of the New York
(01:00:18):
Botanical Garden.
And then we also completed abook titled Messages from the
Gods a guide to the usefulplants of Belize, which is about
400 pages of more of ascientific documentation of the
ethnobotanical research that wasdone over a nine-year period in
(01:00:41):
Belize with Dr Balik from theNew York Botanical Garden.
So that and I continue I do alot of forest bathing.
I'm a forest bathing guide.
I enjoy that very much and Istill teach abdominal therapy
and Maya spiritual healingaround the world.
I'm still active in that andspend a lot of time in around
(01:01:07):
the area of Chicago with myfamily and here in Belize,
keeping busy for sure, yeah itsounds like it.
Dr. Michele Burklund (01:01:14):
Well, thank you so much for sharing
everything today too, and we'llmake sure everybody can find you
, and we'll have everything setup for the lace.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (01:01:24):
So thank you very much.
Dr. Michele Burklund (01:01:26):
It was a pleasure.
Welcome to the podcast Medicine Untold and
come with me on a journey tothe unexplored side of medicine,
where we speak with rebeldoctors, radical herbalists,
unorthodox healers and patientswho have healed themselves.
Explore the intersectionbetween science and spirituality
and discover the power withinyou.
(00:26):
I'm your host, Dr.
Michele Burklund, licensednaturopathic doctor, botanical
alchemist and practicingphysician.
Everyone welcome today.
Today we have Dr.
Rosita Arvigo with us.
Today we have Dr Rosita Arvigowith us and I am going to
(00:48):
introduce you to our audience sothey can get an understanding
of your whole background.
So Dr Rosita Arvigo is a doctorof naprapathy, ethnobotanist,
spiritual healer and author ofsix books on traditional healing
of Central America.
Dr Arvigo has lived among Mayain San Ignacio, Belize, for the
past 35 years.
(01:09):
For 13 of those years, sheapprenticed with the most famous
Maya shaman healer, Don EligioPanti, who was born in Guatemala
.
Not only has Rosita's life keptMaya medicine alive, but she
has been instrumental incataloging and preserving
thousands of healing plants andtrees of Belize through her work
(01:33):
in the New York BotanicalGarden and the Belize
Ethnobotany Project.
So welcome today.
I'm excited to have you.
Thank you.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (01:42):
I love being here.
Thanks, the monkeys outsidejust started.
So if you hear that, it's not amonster, it's just a howler
monkey.
Dr. Michele Burklund (01:51):
Oh, that's great.
Now, that adds to the ambiance,I think.
So that kind of leads me intothe first question too.
So I want to hear about how youended up in Belize, because I
know that you moved your family,you purchased land and you had
a vision.
So I want to hear about how youended up in Belize, because I
know that you moved your family,you purchased land and you had
a vision.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (02:13):
So I kind of want to hear about how you ended
up where you are in Belizeafter living seven years in
Guerrero, Mexico, with theNahuatl people, where I first
began my serious study onhealing and medicinal plants
after graduating from theCollege of Naprapathy.
(02:34):
It was in the 1980s and in1980s there was a push by the
FDA to discredit and arrestalternative healers and I just
felt like that was a veryuncomfortable environment for a
(02:54):
newly graduated doctor of analternative type of medicine,
naprapathy, even though we hadbeen granted licensure since
1910, it really felt oppressivepolitically and so I said to my
new, brand new husband at thetime you know, I really feel
(03:17):
like I want to go live in acountry where medicinal plants,
traditional healing andalternative medicine is not
against the law.
Also, as an alternativephysician, I am a dedicated
vegetarian, natural foodadvocate and I feel so serious
(03:41):
about organic food.
I'm willing to do what it takesto grow food all year long, and
in the tropics you can't dothat and I'm sure you know that
in other parts of the world andin other parts of America that's
not possible.
There's too much winter.
So for a year-round growingseason and medical freedom.
(04:03):
Then I had a friend in Belizewho said you know, right next to
us is a jolly piece of land, asthis British gentleman said,
and we'd love for you to be ourneighbor.
So my husband and I actuallybought 32 acres of uncleared
jungle along the Macau Riveralong the Macau River unseen
(04:30):
before we arrived in Belizeafter graduating in 1982.
And so we have been here eversince.
So it's about 42 years that wehave lived here together.
Dr. Michele Burklund (04:38):
Wow, what an adventure to think you were.
You were the original pioneers.
Like.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (04:43):
You bought it sight unseen and then you went
for it there, yeah, and then itwas a very, very long, arduous
process of clearing the trees,clearing the land, and this was
a high bush rainforest.
It's so emotionally painful todo that.
(05:08):
As a plant lover, it was reallyhard for me to spend a couple
of months killing plants andtrees, but I learned that you
must do it.
If you live in the tropics andour house to this day is still
in the middle of a jungle, andif you have trees too close to
(05:29):
the house, when a big wind or ahurricane comes, the tree falls
on your house.
So had to have a home withtrees that are no further no
closer to us than the length oftheir of their trunk, if they
were to fall yeah, so that's.
Dr. Michele Burklund (05:50):
That's some clearing.
But yeah, it makes sense too,you can't take that risk, right.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (05:55):
So we had to do it.
We did, and then, ever sincethen, we've always been
extremely careful about how many, how many trees we take down,
because we're in the middle of a500-acre rainforest reserve.
But occasionally it's necessaryBuilding a road, building a
house, expanding your space.
Dr. Michele Burklund (06:20):
So do you have a clinical practice still
down there too?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (06:22):
I did so do you have a clinical practice
still down there too.
I did.
My husband and I practicedtogether for about 42 years in
San Ignacio.
We had a family practice asdoctors of nephropathy but
because we're in Central America, women prefer to be treated by
women.
It's body work and there's someundressing involved, so it's
(06:47):
obvious that women would preferto be treated by women.
It's body work and there's someundressing involved, so it's
obvious that women would preferto be treated by women.
So I always treated women,infants and children.
My husband treated men and boys.
Occasionally there was acrossover, but not very often,
and we ran our clinic in thesmall town of San Ignacio as
family practitioners and usingour skills as naprapaths.
(07:12):
My husband is also a doctor ofnaprapathy the Bach flower
remedies and herbal remedies anda lot that my mentor, don ,
taught me as well lot that mymentor, Don Eligio Panti, taught
me as well.
Dr. Michele Burklund (07:29):
Wow, that's great.
So you could integrate a lot ofthe treatments and modalities
that you used during that timeas well.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (07:34):
In freedom as well.
That was really extremelyimportant to both of us, and we
actually did have a nephropathiccolleague who was arrested by a
government agency forpracticing medicine without a
license, even though he was alicensed doctor of nephropathy.
(07:54):
So it feels like old fashionednews now, but it was a big deal
in the 1980s for alternativephysicians and that's primarily
why we left the country.
Yeah, and the wanderlust.
Dr. Michele Burklund (08:10):
Yeah, I mean, the adventure sounds fun
too.
I know I was down in Belize, inSan Ignacio I think, back in
2009, 2010.
So I searched for you then butyou were actually in the States
giving a speech, so I missed youduring that trip.
But I got a feel for the townand everything and how amazing
it is there.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (08:29):
Yeah, about 10 miles outside of San Ignacio,
on the same river that runsthrough San Ignacio, the Macal
River.
So when I was studying with DonEligio it was a walk across the
river, or get canoed across theriver and then walk a mile
(08:50):
through the jungle and then fivemiles on the logging road to
get to San Antonio from where Ilive.
Dr. Michele Burklund (08:59):
And did you walk most of the time?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (09:01):
Okay, oh well , I've never been a driver, I
have always walked, and I walkmost everywhere I go to these
days.
Dr. Michele Burklund (09:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that's
the best way.
It's impressive too.
So my, my next my next kind ofquestion kind of ties into that,
because I want to know how youcrossed paths with and how
you found him or he found you,or you found each other and you
started that apprenticeship.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (09:30):
I think we found each other.
I was asking around who couldteach me about the medicinal
plants of Belize.
I had learned a lot ofmedicinal plants of Mexico, but
always been an Americanherbalist self-taught of Mexico,
but always been an Americanherbalist self-taught.
And now that I'm living in aforeign country and I actually
(09:51):
have a clinical practice, Ineeded to study with someone who
was really an expert.
And everyone gave me the sameanswer oh, you have to go see
the old man in San Antonio, youhave to go see El Mero, which
means the very one, he's themost authentic, he's numero uno,
he's number one.
And then the ladies all saidwatch out, he's a lecher, don't
(10:17):
get too close to him, watch out,that old man is a lech.
And that never was true.
So within a matter of weeks ofopening my clinic, I come back
from the marketplace carrying abag of mangoes and there's an
old gentleman sitting on myveranda outside my clinic and I
(10:38):
thought he was there to see meas a client and I said I'll be
out in a moment, let me put downmy bags, freshen up and I will
come back out.
And so I greeted him and whenour hands touched I shook his
hand.
I have to say there was anelectric charge that transferred
(10:58):
between us and that hand was socalloused and hard and it just
felt like such an expert hand.
I never forget the feeling oftouching that hand.
So I invited him in and Ithought he was there for a
treatment and he said no, no, no, I'm not here for a treatment.
(11:20):
I came to see if you have anyflor de tilo.
I came to see if you have anyflor de tilo.
I heard that you're an Americanherbalist in town and I wonder
if you have any flor de tilo,which is linden flower.
Tilia americana happens to beone of my favorite herbs and so
I still had some that I hadbrought from Chicago with me.
(11:43):
However, there was a realproblem with the herbs molding
in these glass jars because ofthe climate.
So I said I do, actually I dohave fluoridated, and I pulled
down the jar and he looked atall the other glass jars of
herbs in my clinic and he saidhmm, tienes problema, you've got
(12:04):
a problem.
Your herbs are rotting.
And he said you can't keep themin glass jars.
He said don't you see themoisture inside there dripping
down on your, on your herbs, andthat's why they're molding.
You must put them in paper bagsand take them outside to dry in
the sun every once in a while.
Well, I was so impressed and Isaid well, hello, I mean, that's
(12:30):
really wonderful, thank you somuch for that piece of advice.
And he said oh, I'm , I'm theold Maya herbalist from San
Antonio.
Maybe you've heard of me.
Well, I certainly had heard ofhim, and so we had a lovely
conversation and then he lookedat my treatment table and he
kind of went oh my neck, oh myneck.
(12:52):
And I said get on the table,I'll give you a napropathic
treatment.
So I did, and I felt like hewas very happy and impressed
about that.
And then I gave him his bag oflinden flower tea because he
said, now that he was a widow,he was a widower, he was having
(13:12):
a very hard time sleeping aloneat nighttime.
Now, hilarious, funny,funny person.
He truly was the archetype ofthe Dr Clown.
And he said when my wife wasalive, I slept in the hammock
with my blanket of guts and whenI turned around, she turned
(13:36):
around and pulled me close toher and kept me warm all night
long.
Now that my wife is dead, Isleep alone in my hammock.
I have a blanket, but when Iturn over, that blanket falls to
the floor and there I am, oldEligio, all alone, shaking alone
, cold at nighttime, where itused to be when my wife was
(13:58):
alive.
I was caressed and kissed allnight long.
So now I can't sleep.
That's why I need the lindenflower tea.
So I gave him his tea and I saidwell, , could I come visit you
in your village?
And he said see, yes, you cancome there.
I will be neither more nor lessthan you see right here in
(14:20):
front of you.
So I went back the next weekand he didn't remember me.
I went back the next week andhe didn't remember me.
I went back the next week, hedidn't remember me.
He had already had prettyserious cataracts, so he was not
able to see faces very well.
He said by that time the facewas kind of like a cloud.
(14:41):
It was difficult to make outthe distinguishing features.
So I continued to go one day ofevery week just to visit.
I swept out the courtyard.
I would carry a bucket of water.
Sometimes I could go out andcollect herds for him, because I
was already familiar with a lotof the plants of Central
(15:04):
America not specifically Belize,however so I might go out and
get a pasote.
I remember, for instance, whenit was raining, he was already
arthritic and somewhat rheumatic.
He was 90 years old when Ifirst met him, so he wouldn't go
out in the rain, but I would goin the rain and collect a
pasote, which is the Mexicanworm seed for childhood
(15:28):
parasites, and he was impressedthat I could find a pasote.
I collected firewood, and sothis goes on for an entire year
and several times without beinga pest.
I asked if he would teach meand he said no.
And I said why?
Why not?
And he said because you're agringa and everything that I
(15:51):
teach you here will be lost upthere.
And he said the Maya spiritscan't speak English and you
can't study my medicine if youcan't communicate with the Maya
spirits.
I said yeah, but I speakSpanish, and he said well, they
don't speak English.
(16:11):
So the year goes by and I arrivealmost to the day when I first
arrived, and was very early thismorning.
Usually I got there around 11when he was coming back from the
jungle collecting his plants.
This time I got an early rideand I was there by 6.30 am
(16:32):
standing at his doorstep, andwhen the door opened I stood up
and he kind of gave me a lookthat was oh my God, she's here
again.
He kind of gave me a look thatwas oh my God, she's here again.
And when I saw that look, ofcourse my heart sunk and I said
(16:52):
I'm never coming back again.
This will be the last day.
I certainly had no intentions ofbeing an annoyance to this
charming, delightful old man andso I said where are you going
today?
What are you doing?
He said I don't have time foryou.
I said what are you doing andwhere are you going?
Maybe I could help?
And he said I have to goharvest my corn.
I've had so many patients allweek long there hasn't been time
(17:16):
to harvest corn.
It's going to rain, the cornwill start sprouting, I'll lose
my whole harvest.
90 years old and he's stillharvesting corn, carrying it
home on his back.
So I said well, don Aligio, Iknow how to harvest corn.
And he said you, he gave me oneof those Maya baskets with a
hand woven belt here and thebasket hangs down.
(17:48):
Basket is just about below yoursacrum.
He has the basket and I have abasket and we trudge probably it
was more than 60, 75 minutesoutside of his little village to
get to his cornfield.
And we're standing in front ofthe cornfield and all I can see
(18:08):
are trees.
And he said, well, here's mycorn, and I'm like corn.
I don't see anything but forest.
And he said, no, we have to geton our bellies and crawl
through this piece of forest.
I keep it hidden because peoplesteal corn and pumpkins.
So, okay, so we're down on ourbellies now, crawling through
this piece of jungle, and I'dsay it was 20 or 30 feet
(18:33):
crawling.
And then when I came out, Istood up like this and there is
his cornfield, which is anentire mountain, a mountainside
of corn that he had cleared,planted, cultivated, and now he
was willing to carry home basketby basket.
He could no longer handle ahorse at the age of 90.
(18:55):
So that didn't stop him fromgrowing a full crop of food for
his family.
He had a grandson with ninechildren and his wife, so his
harvest was the food for 13people for an entire year.
So we begin harvesting corn.
He points to a row and he goesdown another row and all morning
(19:20):
long I'm pulling corn, throwingit in the basket, emptying my
basket, making a pile.
He's doing the same somewhereelse in the cornfield.
And then at one point he'scoming this way down the same
corn row, and I'm coming thisway and we meet in the middle
and he looks at my pile of cornand he looks at my basket
(19:42):
getting empty, which is as fullas his, and he said are you
married?
Yes, domino, I'm married and Ihave three children.
And he said, oh, like that.
Oh, so we continue harvestingcorn.
And then it's about maybe 11,1130.
(20:02):
So we continue harvesting cornand then it's about maybe 11,
1130.
And because we're standing on amountaintop, the sun is just
coming up over that mountain and, was sharing an orange,
peeled it and I gave him halfthe orange and he said to me
when he stood up, and when hestood up there, the sun rose.
Here's him and here's the sunjust behind him, and it was an
(20:27):
absolute golden medallion ofbeaming light behind him.
It was quite magical.
And he looked at me and he saiddo you promise, if I take the
time to teach you, you will takecare of my people when I'm gone
?
Yes yes, I promise.
And so that was the day that itall began.
(20:49):
And on the way home he saidthis little plant is called the.
Now you recognize it by itslittle red flowers that come out
in August.
That this vine over here is isIshkibish, and we use that one
for excessive menstruation.
This is the gumbo limbo tree.
We use that for bad skinconditions.
(21:11):
And it was like music.
Literally it was like being inan orchestra hall to the most
gorgeous music and all the wayhome he just kept planting up,
pointing out trees and plants.
And so after that I was therefor the next seven years, three
days, four nights and three daysof every week.
(21:33):
Thank I'm grateful that to myhusband who kept our daughter.
She was still probably seven atthe time and my neighbor would
let her go over there and playwith the other kids a lot, so it
would not have been possiblewithout someone to look after my
child, my last little child, mydaughter Crystal.
(21:55):
So four nights and three daysof every week after that.
For seven years I was with himcollecting his medicinal plants,
helping him take care of hisclients, doing a lot of the work
that requires young eyesightbecause he also had cataracts.
(22:16):
So he was rheumatic arthriticand he had cataracts.
So he truly needed an assistantto be there as often as
possible, and because I wasfluent in Spanish, I was able to
also communicate with hisclients.
So then that was the first sevenyears.
After that I returned every onefull day of every week until
(22:40):
finally Don Eligio passed awayat 103.
So it was a full 13 yearapprenticeship with him, and the
number 13 is a very highspiritual number.
In the Maya system it'sconsidered one of the major
cyclical endings cyclicalendings?
Dr. Michele Burklund (23:03):
Wow, and it seems like he was waiting for
the right person to that.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (23:08):
He he tested you and he wanted to see.
The spirits tested me as well.
Because the very, very firstday that I'm now his official
student, at his clinic shows upthe very worst, scariest client
I saw in all the 13 years.
It was like you think you wantto do this.
(23:30):
Well, let us know if you'reready, because Don Aligio worked
very closely with thebenevolent, the nine benevolent
Maya spirits.
They were his mentors really.
They taught him because henever went to school, never
learned to read or write, sothey taught him a great deal in
(23:51):
dream visions and it always camefrom the benevolent Maya
spirits.
So on the very, very first day,the very first client that
shows up, don Alicio said waspossessed by the devil.
El Principio de la Oscuridad,the Prince of Darkness, has
(24:12):
possessed this woman and I haveto tell you she was very scary.
Her eyes could not focus, shewas drooling and kind of
growling, not focused.
She was drooling and kind ofgrowling, growling like a dog,
and I could feel the hair on theback.
I never felt that in my lifebefore.
I've read about it, but I neveractually felt the hair on the
(24:33):
back of my neck stand up andquiver like that.
All the hair on my arms stoodup and quivered, and it was so
he treated her.
He was sprinkling her with holywater from the Catholic church.
He brought Copal and he saidprayers for her.
He sent his, her family homewith plants to do spiritual
(24:56):
bathing.
And that night, sleeping in thehammock in his little cement
house that was probably 10 by 10.
And it's divided into two rooms, I'm sleeping on one side of a
curtain in a hammock and he'ssleeping on the other side of
the curtain in a hammock.
(25:16):
And in the middle of the nightI kind of wake up and I'm aware
of feeling quite frightened andthat really I should go home.
In the middle of the night Ikind of wake up and I'm aware of
feeling quite frightened andthat really I should go home in
the morning, that this is notwhat I signed up for.
I'm not interested in theprince of darkness, I only want
to learn about medicinal plantsat night.
(25:36):
So I'm lying in my hammock andI'm just like full of
consternation, fear and worry.
Finally I fall asleep and I havethis dream.
And that was one of themagnificent things about being
in Don Aligio's presence and inhis little thatch hut was the
(25:57):
presence of these magical beingsthat were around all the time,
little earth spirits, mayaspirits, and they bring dream
visions.
So I finally fall asleep and inthis dream I see, first of all
Don Aligio used rue, that hesqueezed in water to give her to
(26:18):
drink.
He used copal and he sent herhome with batches of marigold
flowers to do the spiritualbaths.
So in this dream I'm lying inthe hammock and I see myself all
my face crunched up and worried, and suddenly these four giant
(26:39):
angels appear all around me.
One is kind of shimmering green, and I know that's the angel of
Ruth.
One on the other side is golden, and I know that is the angel
of Kopal.
And then there's a yellowishone, green, yellowish green, and
(26:59):
that I know is the angel of orthe spirit of miracle.
And then there's one at my headthat's kind of like a saint
michael figure.
He's got a shield and the staffand he's kind of like guarding,
as though he's saying just takeone step, just take one step
toward her and you'll see whathappens.
And nothing was said, nothingwas done, except this vision.
(27:23):
And all of this light of allfour of these angelic beings was
beaming towards me, lying inthe hammock, all tightened up
and worried, and I never worriedagain after that.
I felt, whatever happens, thatwas a very clear message that I
(27:44):
will be protected.
It was a lot of the spiritualityof very difficult to
comprehend in the beginning, notbeing a Maya person, not being
familiar with the concept ofbenevolent spirits, with the
concept of benevolent spirits asopposed to malevolent spirits,
and so, yeah, that took quite abit of time to adjust to the
(28:09):
reality of his practice, beingboth spiritual and physical.
He had as many clients forspiritual healing as he had for
physical healing.
In the physical realm it wasvery much like anybody's
clinical practice Lots of tummyache, lots of skin conditions,
(28:32):
high blood pressure, diabetes,backache what you'd see in any
natural healing clinic.
Then, on the spiritual side,there was a lot of PTSD, which
is called susto, which isconsidered a proper spiritual
disease, the PTSD that we thinkof here.
It's, in this lady's case,possession by evil spirits.
(29:05):
So all of that was a big bucketof new things all at once in my
life.
But I had come to so admire him, I totally trusted him to be a
good person and that all ofthose stories that were told
about him being alleged.
None of that was true at all.
(29:26):
He was always, always agentleman, a delight and a very
entertaining personality what anamazing experience.
Dr. Michele Burklund (29:37):
And you had, you had those signs early
on to the, the visitations inyour first, your first day,
which yeah, can.
One of the most powerful dreamsI ever had in that little um
magic hut and um, yeah, to meit's so interesting because I
feel like spirituality and andmedicine and healing go together
(30:02):
.
They can't really be separateand I'm not too familiar with
like the Maya philosophy that.
Can you explain that a littlemore of?
Yeah, that blends together,sure.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (30:14):
It comes about Always done.
Alicia had to determine if aperson's ailment whether it be
headache, tummy ache, backachewas due to a physical cause or a
spiritual cause.
Sometimes he could determinethat by interview, asking
questions, getting answers.
But he also was in possessionof the magic instrument of the
(30:40):
Maya spirits called the Sastun.
Sastun is the name of the bookthat I wrote about sastun, my
apprenticeship with the mayahealer.
So sas is a word in maya thatmeans light, and mirror tune
means stone or age, so light ofthe ages or stone of the ages,
(31:06):
and it is a translucent crystalball and that is the instrument
that get.
That gives don gives othe ability to contact the maya
spirits, to be the um, theintermediary between the
physical and the spiritual, andto request very uh you know,
(31:29):
very special healing from themaya spirits for his clients.
Through that he used thatsastun for for divination, to
determine if this is a physicalailment or a spiritual ailment,
and also for incantation.
There he had a.
(31:49):
It had always been a practice inMaya medicine to do
enchantments over photographsand primarily most of what I saw
him do was to enchant youngpeople who wouldn't study.
Usually it was a grandmotherwho brought a picture of a
teenager.
(32:09):
In Belize everybody has to payfor their education, so it's
often a great sacrifice for theparents and the grandparents.
So the grandmother would bringa photograph of young Jose who's
15.
His parents are making a greatdeal of sacrifice for his
education but he's lazy.
(32:29):
And so the grandmother wouldsay this boy is lazy, I want you
to make him study, I want youto make him a serious boy so
that he grows up and he has agood career because he got a
good education.
That was mostly what I sawthe sastun for enchantment, as
(32:50):
well as blessings on people whowere ill through photographs.
And then he also made amulets,little sewn up pieces of black
cloth with sacred objects inthere.
And when he twirled his sastuninside of a little clay jar with
(33:12):
a special Maya chant around andaround that amulet, it gave it
a very special spiritual charge.
That was a protector orsomething that could protect you
or something that could drawgood fortune and ward off evil.
You know that old term we readin the old herbal books the ward
(33:37):
off evil.
So that was also the purpose ofthose enchanted amulets.
Dr. Michele Burklund (33:46):
Wow and I was reading somewhere, I think I
heard it that both of you sawquite a bit of patients per day,
Like there was a lot of peoplecoming to the clinic that you
saw.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (33:58):
Yeah, a regular day was anywhere from 10
to 30 clients, so over a week,over a week, there would be, you
know, over 100 clients, allkept in bean sacks in one little
(34:24):
hut that was separate just tostore his herbs and for a place
for clients to sleep.
Some clients stayed with DonAligio three or four days was
very common.
He was also a shelter forbattered women.
Women knew they could go livewith find protection.
(34:44):
So while I was there there werea series of women who came to
live with Don Elichio , untilthings sort of, you know,
resettled back at home if theyever did.
But he helped them, you know,with the food, he gave them a
place to stay and comfort andspiritual baths, and so, yeah,
(35:08):
he was a charming, delightful,generous, lovely person.
Dr. Michele Burklund (35:14):
Yeah, it sounds like I mean, that's real
medicine, helping people in thatsense.
So yeah, that's a reallybeautiful thing.
Yeah, so how did you guyscollect?
Did you collect the herbs too,if you went through so many
herbs per week?
So you saw all the patients andthen you had to go out into the
jungles and no, we went out inthe morning.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (35:36):
We couldn't do it in the afternoon.
It's too hot, so we would leaveat six or 6.30.
He would have a cup of coffeeand milk with a few biscuits, I
would have a cup of hotchocolate and I don't know,
maybe usually I had somecinnamon crackers with me and
that's what we ate for themorning.
(35:58):
And then by 7.30, we're in thehigh jungle and so we would
collect vines, roots, barks,heavy work up in the high bush
areas and then carrying it downon our backs in those Maya
baskets.
And then on the way home we hada sack each of us to collect
(36:18):
leaves for the herbal baths.
So in the basket was vine roots, roots and barks, the heavy
medicine, and then in the bagswe carried home it would be a 50
pound sack full of leaves.
Doesn't weigh 50 pounds butit's big.
All the way home we would becollecting plants, and every
(36:38):
time we took anything from aplant we had to say the prayer
of faith and thanksgiving.
He always said if you don't saythe prayer of faith and
thanksgiving to the spirit ofthe plant, the spirit of the
plant does not follow you homebut stays in the earth and
therefore, the healing is neveras effective without the prayer.
Dr. Michele Burklund (37:03):
I've been thankful for the plant and
everything it gives to thepeople each day too, yeah, and I
really.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (37:11):
I spent a lot of time on that concept,
thinking about it, and I feellike, yes, every plant that
we're looking at is a spiritualbeing in a physical body, just
like us is a spiritual being ina physical body, just like us.
So he introduced me to thatconcept back in the 1980s when I
(37:32):
first started working with him,and I've held that ever since.
Since then, I have never, ever,taken a leaf or a flower from a
plant without giving the prayerof faith and thanksgiving.
It would be like I couldn't doit.
I don't know whatgiving.
It would be like I couldn't doit.
I don't know what it would belike because I couldn't do it
(37:53):
yeah, no, that's, that's reallybeautiful.
Dr. Michele Burklund (37:55):
I remember , um, in some of my botanical
medicine classes, some of theteachers would say, like take a
piece of hair, take something,and have it as an offering to to
the plants too.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (38:04):
So kind of similar in that, when he
introduced, introduced me to thegoddess Ischel this is one of
her images as a young maiden,because the first day we went to
collect medicine, he waslooking for his zorio, the skunk
root that he used a great dealof, and he found a plant that
(38:26):
was the biggest one he'd everseen in 50 years of collecting
on the same mountainside.
And he said what good fortune.
And that's because you're here,like me, why is it because I'm
here?
And he said because the goddessIschel smiles on the man herd
collector if he walks the junglewith a womb.
(38:48):
And I said who's Ischel?
I had never heard her namebefore and that set me on a
25-year journey to discover asmuch as I could about this
wonderful goddess Ischel.
She's the goddess of medicine,healing, medicinal plants, the
(39:09):
moon goddess, the earth goddess.
She's the goddess of fertility,childbirth and also the creator
, the creator goddess, with hermale partner, itzamna,
fascinating that the Maya faithbelieves that the creator is a
man and a woman.
I mean, how could it beotherwise?
(39:30):
Exactly exactly.
Dr. Michele Burklund (39:34):
Yeah, that's a beautiful introduction
too, and I know I read somethingabout like the skunk root and
how he that was one of hisfavorite plants also and had a
lot of spiritual significanceand maybe tied into that too, or
you guys collected it togetheryeah, the skunk root was a plant
(39:56):
that he used a lot of and itcould only be found in the very
high, high bush jungle.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (40:02):
You would never find it in second or third
growth forest, could only beway up in the primary forest
there, where you know it's.
It's real rainforest with 40 or50 for trees, undisturbed for
generations.
And the skunk root um um taiche in maya.
(40:25):
It is used for those veryserious type of spiritual
ailments like curses and thelong-term effects of envy and
jealousy.
And it is very much like thatdark angel that I saw in that
first dream.
That might even have been thespirit of zarrio in that first
(40:47):
dream.
That might even have been thespirit of Zorio in that black
suit with the shield and thespear.
So because in Central America,unfortunately, envy is very
common and when people are theobjects of envy it really does
make you sick.
You feel quite depressed, youfeel discouraged, you can be
(41:09):
physiologically sick, you can beemotionally sick, you can lose
sleep, can't digest properly allthe effects of envy and
jealousy and in fact some peoplecan die from it.
It's that serious but theremedy is to say a series of
Maya prayers into the pulse.
(41:30):
Old Maya doctors were alwaysreferred to as pulse doctors
because he could do hisdiagnosis and treatment with the
pulse.
He, like all of us in clinicalpractice, would take a general
history from a client.
I remember a lady who came fora reproductive disorder,
(41:53):
menstrual disorder, and he askedher several questions and then
he took her pulse and he saidwell, you didn't tell me, you
had surgery three months ago.
And he could be from the pulseright.
So into the pulse.
For this concept of thespiritual disease like envy,
jealousy and curses, he wouldsay three prayers in maya to the
(42:18):
in the right pulse, threeprayers in the left and three
prayers over the forehead.
Burn kop often have a drink ofrue squeezed in water and then
given herbal baths to take athome.
So that was the treatment forthe spiritual disease.
(42:38):
But the and drinking sorry,drinking the Zario tea as well
for nine days, sometimes one cupa day for nine days, sometimes
three cups a day, depending onthe length and the severity of
the curse that a person had orhow much jealousy one was
exposed to.
And that was quite a revelationto me at how devastating it is
(43:04):
to be the object of envy andjealousy.
It is really emotionally andphysiologically devastating to
the system.
And worked.
And then it would be time togive the amulet that would be
enchanted with his sastun, forprotection against envy and
(43:26):
jealousy.
Dr. Michele Burklund (43:29):
Yeah, that's so interesting too.
I learned about that a lot whenI was living in Greece, because
the older women there wouldcall it the evil eye and it
would be just as destructive andthey would discuss it in the
same caliber as you'rediscussing too, of how
destructive it can be for thatperson and be careful of the
evil eye, and so it's evil eyeis right in there, in that, in
(43:52):
that category, and then skunkroot because it was so
eliminating, so cleansing andeliminating.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (44:01):
He also put it into the female tonic formula
for women with difficultmenstruation, into the female
tonic formula for women withdifficult menstruation, for
women who were having troubleconceiving so often gave it to
people for other purposes, butits primary purpose was as an
organ eliminator, as kind oflike an organ flush, almost like
(44:23):
a purge, but not an intestinalpurge, and then also for those
spiritual diseases.
And I still use it and collectit to this day.
Dr. Michele Burklund (44:34):
So do you always take it internally, or do
you leave it around the house,or always internally?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (44:40):
Always internally.
Yes, I mean yeah, I carry it ina little pouch, sometimes as a
protector it's multiple uses,but as a tea would be one and
then also carrying it around inthe pouch in an amulet.
That would be protective aswell.
Dr. Michele Burklun (45:00):
Interesting .
Can you tell me a little bitmore about your most memorable
experience?
I know it's probably hard tocome up with one.
It sounds like you've sharedquite a bit, but do you have
like one story or one that youreally want to share with our
audience, something that reallytouched you?
I wonder it is.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (45:24):
It's very hard for me to put down one
thing.
I could tell a couple ofstories.
After I started working withof the word got out that I
was working with this old Mayashaman, I was contacted by the
television station if they couldcome and do an interview for
Belize television, if they couldcome and do an interview for
(45:46):
Belize television, and I toldhim what it would involve and
what the request was and heagreed.
So they came and we filmed allday long.
And now Don Alijo down infront of a television in his
whole life.
He had a friend in another town.
His area was a village.
He had a friend in a town notvery far from where he was, so
(46:11):
he went to visit and she had abrand new television.
So for the first time in hislife he sat down to watch a
television.
And guess who was on?
Dona Lucia.
And he's watching the program.
And he said that machine didn'tforget a single thing.
We said that day Just that DonElichio was such a jokester.
(46:41):
I'd say that would be probablymy favorite part of working with
him, besides meeting the Mayaspirits.
But he was such a funny guy andhe always said over and over
again most people think too much, get them to laugh and half
their trouble and sickness willgo away, and the blessed herbs
(47:02):
will do the rest.
So he loved to make peoplelaugh.
I remember one occasion wherehe had been rather ill.
When I got there he had a badcough and so I gave him a
massage, I patted his chest,gave him some cough syrup and I
put him to bed.
(47:23):
And then a lady came to see himas a as a client, and I said
I'm sorry he's sleeping, hehasn't been very well.
You won't be able to see himtoday, maybe if you came back
tomorrow.
And she said Well, if he knowsit's me, he'll get up.
And I said no, I'm not wakingthe old man up.
He's been coughing for days.
(47:43):
He hasn't been sleeping fordays.
Finally he's getting some rest.
I'm not waking him up.
So she sat like this staring atme and I said maybe I could
help you.
I'm Don Alicia's student, I'vealready learned a lot.
Maybe I could be of someservice.
And she looked at me with thatbig frown and she said no, I
(48:05):
come to see the trunk, not thebranch.
She said it's so loud.
She woke him up.
Don alicio gets up and he comesstaggering out through the
curtains and he's got his littlewhite shorts on and the little
shirt that his wife sewed forhim before she passed away.
(48:26):
And he, he says oh, rosita,rosita, I died, I died and I
went to heaven.
Now he starts his routine.
I died and I went to heaven andin my dream, there there was St
Peter at the gate and St Petertook one look at me and he said
when have you been, old man?
Get in here.
Your number should have beencalled a long time ago.
(48:49):
And I said to St Peter now, hold up.
Just a minute.
Before I walk through thosegates, I have to ask you
something Is there dancing?
Is there beer?
Is there women?
And St Peter said dancing beerand women?
No, no, not up here.
And I said to saint peterforget it, I'm going back.
(49:11):
And he looked at this lady.
He said and now, what does thissweet, what does this good lady
want?
And she gave me this.
See, I told you he'd get up ifit was me, so I don't know.
I think that was my favoritepart about .
There was so that his humor andthe fact that dream visions
(49:34):
were just an everyday aspect oflife.
You know, he often woke up andhe said a spirit came to me last
night and explained this aboutthis lady's cough who's been
here for three days.
And in the dream, the Mayaspirit said old man, you don't
really understand this lady'scough.
It's not just a cough, it's alung infection, and you're not
(49:57):
giving her the right herb.
So this is the herb that youneed.
This is how much you shouldgive her.
So, yeah, the aspect of beingtaught in dreams and I think
it's quite fascinating thatthese brilliant geniuses of
(50:18):
Central America, who aretraditional healers, who are the
unlettered heroes of theirgenerations, never learned to
read or write, never went toschool.
When me taking notes in hisclinic about what the patient
had and what herb was given andwriting down the prayers, and he
said oh, they sent you toschool.
(50:41):
I said yeah, they sent me to alot of school.
I sent myself to school and hesaid you'll never learn.
So what?
What do you mean?
I'll never learn, why would yousay that?
And he said that stick and thatpiece of paper that makes your
mind weak.
I never had a stick.
I never had a piece of paper.
(51:02):
But up here it's full, full,full up here, no stick and no
paper.
But I did learn and I did usemy stick and I did use my paper.
I also think that one of themost important things I learned
from service and howservice was such a delight to
(51:29):
him.
There might be a few days whereit was a straggle of one client
and maybe one day out of a yearwhen nobody came.
When nobody came, he was kindof sad and he said have they
forgotten me?
Am I so old that I that I'mgoing to be forgotten?
And but no, he was neverforgotten.
Dr. Michele Burklund (51:51):
So yeah, he, it sounds like he had so
much intuition too.
I mean I, I think the world ofacademia today and being so much
in your brain, you lose touchwith being in nature and
intuition and filling the bodytoo.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (52:09):
He always said somebody comes to me and
they say that they have diabetes.
I might give this person oneplant for diabetes, but the next
person gets a different onebecause I listen, I listen to
what's inside and when, soon asI look at this person, I get a
(52:29):
picture of the plant that Ishould give them.
That's his intuition, of course.
But the next person withdiabetes doesn't get the same
plant because I listen.
He always said I listen.
Dr. Michele Burklund (52:44):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful
experience and such an amazingtrait to learn in medicine too.
Is that side of it, Causethat's an important side?
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (52:56):
To have faith in your own intuition.
I don't think you could dospiritual healing without faith
in your intuition.
Dr. Michele Burklund (53:05):
And you have like a.
You have a very interestingpath in medicine too, because
you've kind of created your ownpath with Mayan abdominal
massage and and kind of taken alot of his teachings and and
taught it to other physiciansand practitioners around the
world too.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (53:25):
Well, I mean, I was so incredibly impressed
with , which is a 5,000 yearold massage therapy that dates
way, way back to 3000 BC, andthe fact that it was still in
his hands and that he waswilling to teach me.
(53:46):
And I, as a doctor ofnephropathy, naprapathy spent 10
full years researching, tryingto figure out how that external
massage on the lower part of theabdomen, around the pelvis,
could reposition a malplaceduterus.
How could that be?
(54:07):
And it literally did take 10years to figure out the anatomy,
the physiology and the effectsof an external massage on
replacing the uterus into itsproper position within the
pelvis.
So for reproductive ailments inwomen, numero uno, and then for
(54:28):
all types of digestivecomplaints, it's often a great
deal of tension in the upperabdomen, fear and anxiety.
The diaphragm will tightenright around the solar plexus
(54:51):
and while it's tightening it'scutting down the supply of the
abdominal aorta that goesthrough, like that, through the
muscle of the diaphragm.
And then there's also the venacava and there's the esophagus.
So you have these three majorvessels and I feel that how his
massage was so effective was byrelax, relaxing and releasing
(55:16):
the squeezing and the tensionaround the esophagus and all the
blood supply to the abdominaland pelvic organs was increased
as a result of relaxing thatarea.
And of course we know it's thesolar plexus where everybody
holds anxiety, even babies.
So yeah, it was so impressiveto me and I used it in my own
(55:38):
clinic for 10 years before Ibegan teaching it.
And I began teaching it out ofconcern for women who suffer
with so much menstrual disorderand it was just at the time
where a lot of fertilitychallenges were showing up in
clinical practice all around theworld.
(56:00):
It was quite a phenomenon inthe 90s and in the early turn of
the 21st century.
So I began introducing it as ameans of helping women to
alleviate some of the menstrualdifficulties.
That I mean.
I had clients who were in bedtwo days of every month because
(56:22):
of menstrual pains and I knowthat happens all over the world
and one or two treatments of DonAlicio's external pelvic
massage adios dolor is what hewould say and he also taught me
about the vaginal steams, yonisteams.
That was very important and Iintroduced those into the United
(56:44):
States in the early 1990s.
Now it's kind of extremelypopular, very de rigueur now,
you know, very avant-garde Iguess, but because it works Very
, very effective.
The massage, the herbalremedies that people drink for
cleansing the uterus, and thenalso the Yoni steam together is
(57:10):
a very dynamic treatment for allmanner of female reproductive
problems.
Really works.
So why I had to share?
I had to share with otherpractitioners what I had learned
, trying to help as many peopleas possible.
You are a healer.
(57:30):
You probably know how it is.
Just, we love to help.
Dr. Michele Burklund (57:36):
Yeah, I was always interested in that
too, so I was always going tocome back to you or find you at
some point.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (57:45):
We have teachers all over the world now
through the abdominal therapycollective.
Right now there are classesgoing on in Greece, in England,
new Zealand, australia, theUnited States, belize.
We did a class in Mexico thisyear for the first time.
Last year in January in Nayaritfor the first time last year in
(58:09):
January in Nayarit.
Dr. Michele Burklund (58:11):
Yeah, we have to post that on the website
too, for everybody else to findand to find more information
about this.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (58:15):
Yeah, my website is wwwrositarvigocom and
thenwwwabdominotherapycollectivecom.
Abdominotherapycollectivecomabdominal therapy collective
because we are a collective of12 previous teachers, teachers
(58:36):
who are involved with education,educating the on the abdominal
therapy and Maya, spiritualhealing.
Dr. Michele Burklund (58:45):
Yeah, and it seems like it's at this point
in the world now where it'seven more of a demand, like it's
growing and growing each day,from women's imbalances and
fertility issues are.
I think it's reached a wholenew level, especially recently
too.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (59:01):
Because it works.
It really works.
It's the best tool and I'vebeen a practitioner now about 50
years.
It is the best tool that I haveDElijio Elijio Don Elijio Don
Elijio abdominal massage fordigestive complaints,
reproductive complaints andyou're a clinic.
If you're a clinician you knowthat that covers a lot.
(59:24):
Outside of that is often a lot.
You know other metabolicdisorders but then also the
emotional disorders.
So with his spiritual healingand the massage it is a.
It's a full clinical practiceand you can help almost
everybody.
Dr. Michele Burklund (59:42):
Yeah, no, it sounds amazing and I want to
know, kind of, what are you upto these days, are you?
I know that's part of yourfocus and you put a lot of focus
on help preserving anddocumenting the plants and and a
lot of research in that sensetoo.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (59:56):
So yeah, well , I completed rainforest
remedies 100 healing herbs ofBelize, which is a inexpensive
pocket book for all Belizeans tobe able to use and keep at home
as a regular householdreference.
And then that was with MichaelBallick of the New York
(01:00:18):
Botanical Garden.
And then we also completed abook titled Messages from the
Gods a guide to the usefulplants of Belize, which is about
400 pages of more of ascientific documentation of the
ethnobotanical research that wasdone over a nine-year period in
(01:00:41):
Belize with Dr Balik from theNew York Botanical Garden.
So that and I continue I do alot of forest bathing.
I'm a forest bathing guide.
I enjoy that very much and Istill teach abdominal therapy
and Maya spiritual healingaround the world.
I'm still active in that andspend a lot of time in around
(01:01:07):
the area of Chicago with myfamily and here in Belize,
keeping busy for sure, yeah itsounds like it.
Dr. Michele Burklund (01:01:14):
Well, thank you so much for sharing
everything today too, and we'llmake sure everybody can find you
, and we'll have everything setup for the lace.
Dr. Rosita Arvigo (01:01:24):
So thank you very much.
Dr. Michele Burklund (01:01:26):
It was a pleasure.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.