Ever feel like your tech is running you instead of the other way around? You're not alone. In this exploration of our digital lives, Dr Kristy Goodwin continues to look at the surprising ways our tech habits can affect our biology and productivity. We also discuss the fascinating world of chronotypes (your internal clock that says when you're naturally most alert), and handling "tech-xpectations" at work.
Dr. Kirsty Goodwin is a digital wellbeing advocate and neuro-productivity speaker who has shaped discussions on managing digital expectations in professional settings. An award-winning researcher, she is on a mission to promote employee wellbeing and bolster workplace productivity in an always-on digital world. Her ability to balance deep research with actionable solutions has seen her work with an impressively long list of clients including Apple, Qantas, Foxtel and several of Australia's leading banks. Her new book is Dear Digital, We need to talk: A guilt-free guide to taming your tech habits and thriving in a distracted world.
Quotes from this episode:
"Information has become so cheap... we feel like we have info-besity".
"Microsoft data tells us that we're seeing a third productivity hump in the day. We used to see one around 10 or 11am (and around) 3.30, 4.30pm. We're now seeing one between 10 and 11pm."
-Dr Kristy Goodwin
Connect with Dr Kristy Goodwin:
Website: drkristygoodwin.com
IG: @drkristy
FB: drkristygoodwin
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Dr Kristy's new book:
Dear Digital, We need to talk: A guilt-free guide to taming your tech habits and thriving in a distracted world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (00:00):
Last time on this podcast, i turned my phone
to grayscale and I'm the firstto say that Instagram is really
boring in black and white.
Another thing I've found reallyhelpful is to take my tech
temptations off the home screenof my phone.
Adelaine Ng (00:16):
Welcome to Upon Arrival, a show that uncovers
stories and strategies that makeup all the moving parts of
business events tourism.
I'm Adelaine Ng, and this ispart two of my interview with Dr
Kristy Goodwin, whose work hasthe power to get you properly
untangled if you're feeling likeyour work-life balance is out
of whack and you suspect thatyour digital habits might have
(00:38):
something to do with it.
You're even tempted to go on adigital detox holiday, which
we've already established in theprevious episode does not work.
Dr Kristy Goodwin is a digitalwell-being and
neuro-productivity speaker,whose new book, which I loved
reading, is Dear Digital.
We Need to Talk.
If you missed part one of thisinterview, Kristy shared a lot
(00:59):
of little-known and fascinatinginsights into the impact of our
digital habits on our biology.
If you haven't heard it yet,i'd encourage you to pause
listening to this episode and gohear the previous episode first
.
But if you've already done that, in this second part of our
chat, Kristy continues to unpackthose secret tweaks we can make
to actually thrive with thedigital load in our world, both
(01:23):
personal and for work, beginningwith tackling digital clutter.
you know, like the multipletabs open on your computer that
you can no longer keep track ofAnd when I say you, i mean me.
We also talk aboutunderstanding our chronotypes,
which is how we are individuallywired to peak at different
parts of the day.
Here's part two, jumping infrom where we left off last time
(01:45):
.
I feel like I'm airing all mydirty digital laundry here.
but another major area ofdigital disorder for me is my
computer.
I have not dozens but hundredsof tabs open on my computer.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (01:57):
Oh, you're a tab holder, they call you.
Adelaine Ng (01:59):
Yes, guilty as charged.
So yes, i am multitaskingbetween projects quite often and
leaving web pages of researchand reference rabbit holes open
just in case And it's alwaysjust in case.
And I realized my base problemis probably FOMO, which is
showing up in all my digitalspaces, including photos on my
smartphone that I just don'tdelete because, hey, what if I
(02:22):
need this angle and what if Ineed that angle?
How do I untangle myself hereto address that, that FOMO, and
to make realistic and permanentchanges and get all those
benefits of not letting digitalsort of control my life?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (02:36):
Yeah, this is a tricky one, because I think
again, because information hasbecome so cheap, like it's so
quick for us to open another tab, save something, send it off,
access it.
Google has become a verb, notjust a noun, and so we feel like
we were just.
There's this.
I often use the word infobesity.
We are just processing so muchmore information now than we
(03:00):
ever have.
So I think it's about us firstof all recognizing you know, am
I ever going to sit back andlook through the 106,000 photos
on my camera roll?
Probably not.
You know the 78 tabs sittingacross my internet browser.
Not only are they slowing yourcomputer down, but they are
actually draining youcognitively.
We know conclusive studies,neuroscientific studies, tell us
(03:24):
that visual clutter is taxingour brain processes 11 million
bits of sensory data everysecond.
10 million of those comethrough our eyes.
So what we see, even if we'reunaware of its impact, is having
a profound effect on us.
So I think it's about sayingyou know, is this serving me?
And I'm also, like you, oftenhave multiple tabs.
(03:46):
I'm not quite, perhaps, thenumber you do, adeline, but
it's-.
Adelaine Ng (03:51):
I haven't found anyone worse than me.
Put it that way.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (03:54):
Okay, good, okay, that's fine, you can claim
that one, but it's, you know,using archiving tools.
So I use a tool called.
I can use a couple, but the onethat I really like is one
called EndNote.
So when I find a really goodblog post, when I find an
article, a research paper that Iwant to read, i use EndNote and
(04:14):
it archives the website.
If there's a PDF, it extractsthe PDF.
I can use tags so I can go backlater and retrieve it quickly.
I can put things in folders, soit's a digital archiving tool.
So there are digital tools thatwill help us.
There are some automaticfunctions that you can use that
will, at the end of the day,shut down all of your tabs as
(04:35):
well.
And the good thing is,information is so accessible
these days So that FOMO, youknow, will I ever find that
article again?
Chances are you will,especially if you've archived it
or you use some keywords toretrieve it.
So I think it's just beingaware and asking what is the
purpose of what I'm doing?
Is it serving me or is itenslaving me?
I love those tips.
Adelaine Ng (04:56):
I'm going to go look up those apps, but if you
are looking at a downloadsfolder that is now full, i'm
just trying to go.
Okay.
What is the action?
a realistic action plan fordealing with the stuff that has
already bloated your digitallife.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (05:12):
Are you?
Adelaine Ng (05:12):
doing weekly calls, or do you not even do downloads
at all?
And also this zero inbox thateverybody likes to talk about.
that is seemingly for me anywayunachievable.
So where do you go from here tostart sort of taking down this
very tall mountain?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (05:32):
Yeah, So if you have what I call a really
pronounced digital debt, ifyou've got the bulging email
bulging inbox, you've got adownload folder that won't let
you download anything else.
If you've got a myriad of tabsopen with emails there's a
concept that's been referred toas email bankruptcy.
Do you need to say I'm atbankruptcy?
You can archive all your emailsand pop them in an archive
(05:56):
folder.
Doesn't mean they're deleted,and the search function today
with most email providers is sosophisticated that you'd be able
to retrieve things later onWithout a downloads folder.
I often think again can you takethem if the clutter there is
too much, and upload them to adigital server or to a hard
drive?
So you do have that accessshould you need them in the
(06:18):
future?
I did this a couple of yearsago and I was convinced.
I was going from one laptop toanother and I thought that
there's going to be all thesefiles in my downloads folder
that I will need.
I copied them and it took Ithink eight hours to copy what
was on my downloads folder andone other drive to a external
hard drive.
I was convinced I'd need to bepulling out that hard drive all
(06:39):
the time.
I think I used it once afterthat event.
So I think, it's putting inplace those parameters in terms
of how do we keep on top of it.
I think at the end of a week ormaybe that cadence is too much
even at the end of a month, justdoing a sort of a declutter can
really have a profound impact.
As somebody who used to haveumpteen constant tabs open, i
(07:04):
don't always get down to one ortwo, but I have found having far
fewer has been so much morereassuring, way less of a stress
.
And again something so simplebut has a profound impact
because they're almost likelittle visual reminders dotted
across the screen of almost likethe partial mental tabs that
you've still got open in yourbrain.
Or hang on that.
(07:24):
What was that the article for?
Who wrote that?
Oh, that relates to thatproject.
It's exhausting.
Adelaine Ng (07:30):
It is, and because you know I write for a living as
well, i'm always referencing.
I'm always like you know, and Ihate the time where I'm going
where, where did I get thisinformation from?
again, like, and when I want todouble check the reference, i
can't and I've spent anotherhour just looking for it And
that's probably one of thereasons why I leave those tabs
(07:51):
open.
But I did.
That was before I learned aboutthe solution that you've just
shared, which I'm definitelygoing to weigh, check it out.
But you also mentioned workingwith your chronotype.
You have the chronotype that Iwant that gets up at four in the
morning and has exercised andfinished writing half a book by
9am.
When I'm just rolling up forbreakfast and doing my first
Zoom call, i can't fit in the 20to 30 minutes of natural
(08:16):
sunlight in the first hour ofwaking up which you say is so
important.
So how do different chronotypeswork with nature's rhythms?
I mean, i know this doesn'tsound like it's completely or
very obviously connected to yourdigital life, but it is.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (08:32):
Yes.
So for those listeners who weresaying what's a chronotype,
your chronotype biologicallydictates when you are most
naturally focused and alert andit also dictates what time you
naturally would like to fallasleep.
Your body would naturally fallasleep, and so we are sort of
categorized into threecategories.
We have lions, who are theearly birds, we have bears that
(08:55):
are sort of the middle of theday people and we have wolves
that are our night people, orsometimes referred to as our
owls, and the idea is that weshould try to structure our day
as best as we can to suit ourchronotype.
Now, the bad news is you can'tactually shift your chronotype.
You can't be a wolf and say I'dlove to be a lion.
Equally, you can't be a lionand say I'd rather be a bear.
(09:17):
It's determined by somethingcalled our PER3 gene.
Your chronotype can shiftthroughout your lifespan, but
you can't manipulate it.
So it's about how do Istructure my day then?
If I am a wolf, even though I'man aspiring, or want to be lion
or bear, how can I structure,scaffold my day to suit my
(09:38):
chronotypes, biological needs?
So I talk in the book aboutgetting sunlight early in the
morning.
We know that on a sunny day, 10minutes is enough.
On an overcast day it needs topossibly be around 20 minutes.
But sunlight exposure withinthe first hour of waking up will
reset your circadian rhythmMagically.
(09:58):
16 hours later your body willstart to make the sleep hormone
melatonin, just by getting someexposure to sunlight.
So the trick is again dependingon what time you naturally
woken up by an alarm clock thatyou need that exposure.
If you wake up and gettingoutside, maybe you've got young
children and that makes it animpossibility.
Maybe you wake up and you justhave to get on the train or the
(10:20):
tram to work And you're notgoing to get that time.
If you're the other end of theextreme and you're up really
early and the sun hasn't evencome up, turning on as many
artificial lights as you can inyour house, preferably overhead
lights as opposed to sort oflamps or bottom lit lights.
But overhead lights activateour ganglion retinal cells that
(10:42):
put us in an alert focus state,so that can be another
substitute as well.
The trick is, if you can, totry and structure the cadence or
the rhythm of your dayaccording to your chronotype and
try to be really diligent aboutbuilding a fortress around your
focus during your chronotypesort of prime time, that peak
performance window when you'refiring on all cylinders.
(11:03):
That's the time where you haveto eliminate as many
distractions as possible.
Adelaine Ng (11:07):
Yeah, so many useful tips And chronotypes.
I think is one of the how do Isay this?
but our pre-COVID 9 to 5 foreverybody.
just, you know, just didn'tsuit everyone.
I mean, i'm a bear, so I'm nota morning person, and yet for
several years I had to get up atfour something in the morning,
five something in the morning toget to work.
(11:29):
So I kind of cherish, you know,what I have now where I don't
have to do that And I almostovercompensate by sometimes
staying in bed for longer than Ineed to.
So I have my own issues whichI'm trying to work through.
You did mention about, you know,some conversations that
sometimes you need to have withyour team members whenever
(11:50):
you're talking about taming yourdigital life, because up to
this point we've talked abouthow this impacts us on a
personal level, but it alsoimpacts teams and productivity
in the office.
So, because you've done so muchwork with major companies, from
Apple to Qantas to a number ofbig banks How do our digital
(12:17):
expectations between teammatesand bosses in the workplace?
we're getting texts that areway out of office hours and not
knowing how to respond to them,and yet on the boss's end,
sometimes they need to see thatyou are responding, because they
feel like then I know thatyou're working, so how do you
(12:38):
navigate?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (12:39):
all of that?
Yeah, great question, becausethis is something that teams
throughout the world aregrappling with at the moment.
We know Microsoft data tells usthat 42% of teams chats are now
happening outside traditionalwork hours, so this is not
something that's happening injust a couple of businesses.
This is a global trend thatwe're seeing And I think what
(13:02):
you described in terms offeeling like you want to be seen
to be responsive, i call thatdigital presentism And it's this
idea that, because we havedistributed teams now, we used
to think and I think this notionis an outdated sort of
industrialized model ofproductivity But if you were the
last person in the office or ifyou were seen to be pumping out
(13:23):
big hours in the office, thenthere was a perception that you
must be really productive,you're a high performer, a high
achiever, and I think withdistributed teams, we've
transferred that to the digitalspace.
I want to be seen by my boss tobe responsive to email, so I
will reply at 11 o'clock atnight, i will write the teams
chat to my colleagues, you know,at five in the morning, and
(13:47):
this can have a contagion effect, especially if our leaders are
doing this.
So one of the things that I'vedone with a number of
organizations is to help themcreate their digital guardrails.
So this is not a policy.
These are team agreements.
I call them digital norms,practices and principles around
(14:08):
how teams or how, at a macrolevel, organizations want to use
technology, and so it's.
It's creating and it's not apolicy imposed on the team.
The team has to or theorganization has to co create
these, but these are principlesand norms around everything from
on our virtual meetings, acameras on or cameras off, and
(14:30):
when a camera's on and camerasoff, what's an acceptable
expected internal email responserate?
When would I use the teams chatversus sending an email?
Do we have a communicationescalation plan so that when
there is a time sensitive,legitimate, urgent issue, what's
the one channel through whichthat'll be communicated So
(14:51):
people feel like they can switchoff?
Because when people are workingaround the clock and again
Microsoft data tells us thatwe're seeing a third
productivity hump.
In the day We used to see onearound 10 or 11 in the morning.
We used to see one aroundbiscuit o'clock, about 3, 34 30
in the afternoon.
We're now seeing one between 1011 at night.
28% of knowledge workers thatuse Microsoft products are
(15:15):
working between 10 and 11 atnight, and this can be seen two
ways.
It can be a marker of our moreflexible work arrangements.
The research suggests it canalso be a marker of burnout and
exhaustion.
So I think these guardrails aresome parameters, there's some
guiding principles.
They're not hard and fast rules, it's not a policy, but they
(15:35):
give people some guardrailsabout how do we as an
organization want to usetechnology so we feel like we
can switch off, and the criticalpart is leaders need to buy
into these.
Adelaine Ng (15:46):
Yeah, if you're an employee and is noticing all
these things and you're noticingalso that your leadership isn't
quite aware of the impact thatit's having on the team, are
there subtle ways you can justsay this is something that needs
to be looked into?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (16:05):
Yeah, send them this podcast.
This section found this reallyinteresting.
You don't have to be the bearerof bad news.
I have found working withleaders that if you I mean you
can take the approach.
I think there's two ways to goabout it.
You can take the well-beingapproach, that I feel exhausted,
i feel depleted.
The research tells us that wehave a concerning number We are
(16:26):
actually global leaders here inAustralia in terms of rates of
burnout at the moment, stressand burnout.
Microsoft data is telling usthis.
Other global studies are sayingthis is a huge issue here.
So you can go the well-beingroute.
As in my, tech habits having aprofound impact on my well-being
, i have found from myexperience and this could be
just my experience, but I thinkwhen you take the performance
(16:49):
productivity route, you oftenhave leaders who are interested
in KPIs and outcomes andtangible, measurable
deliverables.
That can sometimes be more wellreceived.
So I can't perform at anoptimal level if I'm still
working at 11 o'clock at night.
So I have found that if I canswitch off, i'm much more
productive the next day.
(17:10):
But I think it's just havingthe opportunity to talk about
these tech expectations isreally, really important And I
think I actually I'm quiteconcerned that if organizations
aren't on the front foot here,if they're not coming up with
some team agreements, or thedigital guardrails, as I call
them, i think in Australia wewill soon see there's some
(17:32):
legislation being tabled at themoment around the right to
disconnect.
The Australian Institutecommissioned a study last year
and they found I think it was85% of Australians said they
would support legislation aroundthe right to disconnect.
So I think we will soon seelegislation around this space if
organizations aren't beingproactive here.
Adelaine Ng (17:53):
Yeah, that'll be amazing.
Do you see much willingness,motivation on the part of
companies I mean big or small toput something like this in
place?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (18:03):
I am at the beginning stages.
I don't think it's beenvoraciously adopted.
I often talk to organizationsabout what digital distractions
are costing in terms ofproductivity and performance And
, again, when you can quantifywhat these things cost
organizations and when you cantalk about you know how we are
seeing rates of burnout and theimpact of burnout again on
(18:25):
employees and leadersperformance.
I think then it becomes a realissue in terms of setting up the
guardrails.
I think that will be agreements.
I think they're sometimes seenat the moment still is a nice to
have.
We'll get around to that.
I think that, like you said atthe beginning, there's a time
sensitivity to this.
I think one of the chiefreasons why we have rates of
burnout the way that we do andwe can't ignore the fact we've
(18:47):
been through a global pandemic.
We are facing financialuncertainty, there's global
issues that could be impactingupon us.
I think they're all very validreasons why we might see stress
and burnout at all time highs,but I think one of the chief, if
not the chief, reason is thatsubtle tech habits that are
having a huge impact on us.
So I think the organizationsthat take a proactive step will
(19:11):
be well in advance of theircolleagues and counterparts.
Adelaine Ng (19:15):
Completely agree.
Kristy, you're the queen oftaming digital.
It's easy to think that you'vegot this all down pat.
Do you ever unravel?
Do you ever personally?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (19:25):
burnout Gosh.
Yes, the reason I wrote thisbook is that I had experienced
burnout twice And it was my techhabits that were out of control
.
It was a really seriousaccident that I had with my
middle son, billy.
I became digitally distractedtriaging my inbox.
Billy was climbing on a loungeHe was about 15 months at the
time.
I was trying to triage my inboxafter having flown back from an
(19:47):
international visit And I wasso distracted in my inbox that I
didn't watch Billy, and Billyfell face first off the lounge
and required urgenthospitalization, and it was at
this point in time that Irealized my tech habits were out
of control.
Despite researching this,despite speaking about this, i
didn't have a handle on my techhabits.
I'm guilty of doom scrollingsocial media.
(20:10):
I'm not impartial to sometrashy TV binge watching on
Netflix.
Selling sunset is my weaknessat the moment.
Please don't judge me, but it'shard And I'm not perfect at it,
but I know what I can do when Ireally need to rein things back
in And when I can take backcontrol.
I feel like I'm in a lucky,fortuitous position where I know
(20:32):
some of the micro habits that Ineed to just start to reapply,
but far from perfect in thisspace.
Adelaine Ng (20:38):
Well, you've given us that exact roadmap in your
book, so this is a gift, i think, to all of us.
But where do you see peoplefailing, if they do, or
struggling the most when they'retrying to implement these
changes?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (20:52):
Trying to do too many things all at once.
So trying to do a radicaldigital overhaul or doing, you
know, the extreme digital detox.
I often say three to five tothrive.
Pick three to five little microhabits, embed those and then
move on to some others.
If you try to do you know it'slike changing your diet
radically.
You'll stick at it for a coupleof days But then the willpower
(21:14):
will deplete and you'll revertback to your old habits.
I think just making smalllittle adjustments.
I often say don't try and eatthe whole watermelon, just take
small little bites.
And I often remind people thatthe basics work.
If you work the basics.
Look at what tech habits mighthave the most profound impact
And hopefully our conversationtoday will remind you, you know,
(21:35):
could it be as something assimple as turning off your
notifications.
Could it be as simple asactivating do not disturb or
focus mode.
Could it mean putting yourphone somewhere where you can't
see it while you get yourfocused work done.
I think pick the lever that youcould pull.
That would have the biggestimpact And for many it is often
(21:55):
around our tech habits, aroundour sleep and our tech habits
around being able to sort ofswitch off and decompress.
Adelaine Ng (22:02):
Wonderful.
That's amazing to hear all ofthat.
I've gotten so much out of thisconversation.
So, Kristie, i'm sure a lot ofpeople will be just interested
to find out more.
Obviously, there's your book,but where would you point people
to to find out more informationabout you?
how to get access to resourcesbecause I think you also have a
(22:22):
few free resources as well Andhow do people meet you?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (22:26):
Yes.
So the irony isn't lost on methat I'm saying tame your tech
habits, but come and have a lookat what I share on social media
on my website.
But if you want a legitimatereason to get your dopamine hit
online, if you can say you knowI'm doing some research or it's
work related.
I do have a website that's gotlots of blogs and resources.
It's called drcrystigoodwincomAnd I do try and share bite-size
(22:48):
tips and bits of information onsocial media platforms, in
particular Instagram, if youlike the pretty pictures in the
behind the scenes informationand just small little tips and
ideas.
And LinkedIn is more of myprofessional presence.
So that's the digitalplaygrounds I play in.
Adelaine Ng (23:05):
Kristy, thank you so much.
This has been illuminating AndI wish you all the success and
best for the message that youare sharing, because it is so so
much needed today.
So thank you.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (23:17):
My pleasure.
Thank you for this conversation.
Adelaine Ng (23:20):
Thanks for listening.
I do appreciate it.
Do check out the show notes,where I've put links to Kristy's
new book, dear Digital.
We Need to Talk a guilt-freeguide to taming your tech habits
and thriving in a distractedworld, as well as ways you can
reach Kristy directly or findout more about her work.
If you found value in today'sshow, please click the follow
(23:40):
button if you'd like to benotified when a new episode
drops.
By the way, have you everconsidered launching a podcast
with a strategy to land inApple's top 200 charts in the
first week?
If so, feel free to send me anemail at uponarrivalpodcast@
gmail.
com and we'll explore how we canmake that happen.
Catch you next week for anothergreat interview to uncover more
(24:02):
stories and strategies for asuccessful future.
Till then, cheers.
Last time on this podcast, i turned my phone
to grayscale and I'm the firstto say that Instagram is really
boring in black and white.
Another thing I've found reallyhelpful is to take my tech
temptations off the home screenof my phone.
Adelaine Ng (00:16):
Welcome to Upon Arrival, a show that uncovers
stories and strategies that makeup all the moving parts of
business events tourism.
I'm Adelaine Ng, and this ispart two of my interview with Dr
Kristy Goodwin, whose work hasthe power to get you properly
untangled if you're feeling likeyour work-life balance is out
of whack and you suspect thatyour digital habits might have
(00:38):
something to do with it.
You're even tempted to go on adigital detox holiday, which
we've already established in theprevious episode does not work.
Dr Kristy Goodwin is a digitalwell-being and
neuro-productivity speaker,whose new book, which I loved
reading, is Dear Digital.
We Need to Talk.
If you missed part one of thisinterview, Kristy shared a lot
(00:59):
of little-known and fascinatinginsights into the impact of our
digital habits on our biology.
If you haven't heard it yet,i'd encourage you to pause
listening to this episode and gohear the previous episode first
.
But if you've already done that, in this second part of our
chat, Kristy continues to unpackthose secret tweaks we can make
to actually thrive with thedigital load in our world, both
(01:23):
personal and for work, beginningwith tackling digital clutter.
you know, like the multipletabs open on your computer that
you can no longer keep track ofAnd when I say you, i mean me.
We also talk aboutunderstanding our chronotypes,
which is how we are individuallywired to peak at different
parts of the day.
Here's part two, jumping infrom where we left off last time
(01:45):
.
I feel like I'm airing all mydirty digital laundry here.
but another major area ofdigital disorder for me is my
computer.
I have not dozens but hundredsof tabs open on my computer.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (01:57):
Oh, you're a tab holder, they call you.
Adelaine Ng (01:59):
Yes, guilty as charged.
So yes, i am multitaskingbetween projects quite often and
leaving web pages of researchand reference rabbit holes open
just in case And it's alwaysjust in case.
And I realized my base problemis probably FOMO, which is
showing up in all my digitalspaces, including photos on my
smartphone that I just don'tdelete because, hey, what if I
(02:22):
need this angle and what if Ineed that angle?
How do I untangle myself hereto address that, that FOMO, and
to make realistic and permanentchanges and get all those
benefits of not letting digitalsort of control my life?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (02:36):
Yeah, this is a tricky one, because I think
again, because information hasbecome so cheap, like it's so
quick for us to open another tab, save something, send it off,
access it.
Google has become a verb, notjust a noun, and so we feel like
we were just.
There's this.
I often use the word infobesity.
We are just processing so muchmore information now than we
(03:00):
ever have.
So I think it's about us firstof all recognizing you know, am
I ever going to sit back andlook through the 106,000 photos
on my camera roll?
Probably not.
You know the 78 tabs sittingacross my internet browser.
Not only are they slowing yourcomputer down, but they are
actually draining youcognitively.
We know conclusive studies,neuroscientific studies, tell us
(03:24):
that visual clutter is taxingour brain processes 11 million
bits of sensory data everysecond.
10 million of those comethrough our eyes.
So what we see, even if we'reunaware of its impact, is having
a profound effect on us.
So I think it's about sayingyou know, is this serving me?
And I'm also, like you, oftenhave multiple tabs.
(03:46):
I'm not quite, perhaps, thenumber you do, adeline, but
it's-.
Adelaine Ng (03:51):
I haven't found anyone worse than me.
Put it that way.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (03:54):
Okay, good, okay, that's fine, you can claim
that one, but it's, you know,using archiving tools.
So I use a tool called.
I can use a couple, but the onethat I really like is one
called EndNote.
So when I find a really goodblog post, when I find an
article, a research paper that Iwant to read, i use EndNote and
(04:14):
it archives the website.
If there's a PDF, it extractsthe PDF.
I can use tags so I can go backlater and retrieve it quickly.
I can put things in folders, soit's a digital archiving tool.
So there are digital tools thatwill help us.
There are some automaticfunctions that you can use that
will, at the end of the day,shut down all of your tabs as
(04:35):
well.
And the good thing is,information is so accessible
these days So that FOMO, youknow, will I ever find that
article again?
Chances are you will,especially if you've archived it
or you use some keywords toretrieve it.
So I think it's just beingaware and asking what is the
purpose of what I'm doing?
Is it serving me or is itenslaving me?
I love those tips.
Adelaine Ng (04:56):
I'm going to go look up those apps, but if you
are looking at a downloadsfolder that is now full, i'm
just trying to go.
Okay.
What is the action?
a realistic action plan fordealing with the stuff that has
already bloated your digitallife.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (05:12):
Are you?
Adelaine Ng (05:12):
doing weekly calls, or do you not even do downloads
at all?
And also this zero inbox thateverybody likes to talk about.
that is seemingly for me anywayunachievable.
So where do you go from here tostart sort of taking down this
very tall mountain?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (05:32):
Yeah, So if you have what I call a really
pronounced digital debt, ifyou've got the bulging email
bulging inbox, you've got adownload folder that won't let
you download anything else.
If you've got a myriad of tabsopen with emails there's a
concept that's been referred toas email bankruptcy.
Do you need to say I'm atbankruptcy?
You can archive all your emailsand pop them in an archive
(05:56):
folder.
Doesn't mean they're deleted,and the search function today
with most email providers is sosophisticated that you'd be able
to retrieve things later onWithout a downloads folder.
I often think again can you takethem if the clutter there is
too much, and upload them to adigital server or to a hard
drive?
So you do have that accessshould you need them in the
(06:18):
future?
I did this a couple of yearsago and I was convinced.
I was going from one laptop toanother and I thought that
there's going to be all thesefiles in my downloads folder
that I will need.
I copied them and it took Ithink eight hours to copy what
was on my downloads folder andone other drive to a external
hard drive.
I was convinced I'd need to bepulling out that hard drive all
(06:39):
the time.
I think I used it once afterthat event.
So I think, it's putting inplace those parameters in terms
of how do we keep on top of it.
I think at the end of a week ormaybe that cadence is too much
even at the end of a month, justdoing a sort of a declutter can
really have a profound impact.
As somebody who used to haveumpteen constant tabs open, i
(07:04):
don't always get down to one ortwo, but I have found having far
fewer has been so much morereassuring, way less of a stress
.
And again something so simplebut has a profound impact
because they're almost likelittle visual reminders dotted
across the screen of almost likethe partial mental tabs that
you've still got open in yourbrain.
Or hang on that.
(07:24):
What was that the article for?
Who wrote that?
Oh, that relates to thatproject.
It's exhausting.
Adelaine Ng (07:30):
It is, and because you know I write for a living as
well, i'm always referencing.
I'm always like you know, and Ihate the time where I'm going
where, where did I get thisinformation from?
again, like, and when I want todouble check the reference, i
can't and I've spent anotherhour just looking for it And
that's probably one of thereasons why I leave those tabs
(07:51):
open.
But I did.
That was before I learned aboutthe solution that you've just
shared, which I'm definitelygoing to weigh, check it out.
But you also mentioned workingwith your chronotype.
You have the chronotype that Iwant that gets up at four in the
morning and has exercised andfinished writing half a book by
9am.
When I'm just rolling up forbreakfast and doing my first
Zoom call, i can't fit in the 20to 30 minutes of natural
(08:16):
sunlight in the first hour ofwaking up which you say is so
important.
So how do different chronotypeswork with nature's rhythms?
I mean, i know this doesn'tsound like it's completely or
very obviously connected to yourdigital life, but it is.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (08:32):
Yes.
So for those listeners who weresaying what's a chronotype,
your chronotype biologicallydictates when you are most
naturally focused and alert andit also dictates what time you
naturally would like to fallasleep.
Your body would naturally fallasleep, and so we are sort of
categorized into threecategories.
We have lions, who are theearly birds, we have bears that
(08:55):
are sort of the middle of theday people and we have wolves
that are our night people, orsometimes referred to as our
owls, and the idea is that weshould try to structure our day
as best as we can to suit ourchronotype.
Now, the bad news is you can'tactually shift your chronotype.
You can't be a wolf and say I'dlove to be a lion.
Equally, you can't be a lionand say I'd rather be a bear.
(09:17):
It's determined by somethingcalled our PER3 gene.
Your chronotype can shiftthroughout your lifespan, but
you can't manipulate it.
So it's about how do Istructure my day then?
If I am a wolf, even though I'man aspiring, or want to be lion
or bear, how can I structure,scaffold my day to suit my
(09:38):
chronotypes, biological needs?
So I talk in the book aboutgetting sunlight early in the
morning.
We know that on a sunny day, 10minutes is enough.
On an overcast day it needs topossibly be around 20 minutes.
But sunlight exposure withinthe first hour of waking up will
reset your circadian rhythmMagically.
(09:58):
16 hours later your body willstart to make the sleep hormone
melatonin, just by getting someexposure to sunlight.
So the trick is again dependingon what time you naturally
woken up by an alarm clock thatyou need that exposure.
If you wake up and gettingoutside, maybe you've got young
children and that makes it animpossibility.
Maybe you wake up and you justhave to get on the train or the
(10:20):
tram to work And you're notgoing to get that time.
If you're the other end of theextreme and you're up really
early and the sun hasn't evencome up, turning on as many
artificial lights as you can inyour house, preferably overhead
lights as opposed to sort oflamps or bottom lit lights.
But overhead lights activateour ganglion retinal cells that
(10:42):
put us in an alert focus state,so that can be another
substitute as well.
The trick is, if you can, totry and structure the cadence or
the rhythm of your dayaccording to your chronotype and
try to be really diligent aboutbuilding a fortress around your
focus during your chronotypesort of prime time, that peak
performance window when you'refiring on all cylinders.
(11:03):
That's the time where you haveto eliminate as many
distractions as possible.
Adelaine Ng (11:07):
Yeah, so many useful tips And chronotypes.
I think is one of the how do Isay this?
but our pre-COVID 9 to 5 foreverybody.
just, you know, just didn'tsuit everyone.
I mean, i'm a bear, so I'm nota morning person, and yet for
several years I had to get up atfour something in the morning,
five something in the morning toget to work.
(11:29):
So I kind of cherish, you know,what I have now where I don't
have to do that And I almostovercompensate by sometimes
staying in bed for longer than Ineed to.
So I have my own issues whichI'm trying to work through.
You did mention about, you know,some conversations that
sometimes you need to have withyour team members whenever
(11:50):
you're talking about taming yourdigital life, because up to
this point we've talked abouthow this impacts us on a
personal level, but it alsoimpacts teams and productivity
in the office.
So, because you've done so muchwork with major companies, from
Apple to Qantas to a number ofbig banks How do our digital
(12:17):
expectations between teammatesand bosses in the workplace?
we're getting texts that areway out of office hours and not
knowing how to respond to them,and yet on the boss's end,
sometimes they need to see thatyou are responding, because they
feel like then I know thatyou're working, so how do you
(12:38):
navigate?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (12:39):
all of that?
Yeah, great question, becausethis is something that teams
throughout the world aregrappling with at the moment.
We know Microsoft data tells usthat 42% of teams chats are now
happening outside traditionalwork hours, so this is not
something that's happening injust a couple of businesses.
This is a global trend thatwe're seeing And I think what
(13:02):
you described in terms offeeling like you want to be seen
to be responsive, i call thatdigital presentism And it's this
idea that, because we havedistributed teams now, we used
to think and I think this notionis an outdated sort of
industrialized model ofproductivity But if you were the
last person in the office or ifyou were seen to be pumping out
(13:23):
big hours in the office, thenthere was a perception that you
must be really productive,you're a high performer, a high
achiever, and I think withdistributed teams, we've
transferred that to the digitalspace.
I want to be seen by my boss tobe responsive to email, so I
will reply at 11 o'clock atnight, i will write the teams
chat to my colleagues, you know,at five in the morning, and
(13:47):
this can have a contagion effect, especially if our leaders are
doing this.
So one of the things that I'vedone with a number of
organizations is to help themcreate their digital guardrails.
So this is not a policy.
These are team agreements.
I call them digital norms,practices and principles around
(14:08):
how teams or how, at a macrolevel, organizations want to use
technology, and so it's.
It's creating and it's not apolicy imposed on the team.
The team has to or theorganization has to co create
these, but these are principlesand norms around everything from
on our virtual meetings, acameras on or cameras off, and
(14:30):
when a camera's on and camerasoff, what's an acceptable
expected internal email responserate?
When would I use the teams chatversus sending an email?
Do we have a communicationescalation plan so that when
there is a time sensitive,legitimate, urgent issue, what's
the one channel through whichthat'll be communicated So
(14:51):
people feel like they can switchoff?
Because when people are workingaround the clock and again
Microsoft data tells us thatwe're seeing a third
productivity hump.
In the day We used to see onearound 10 or 11 in the morning.
We used to see one aroundbiscuit o'clock, about 3, 34 30
in the afternoon.
We're now seeing one between 1011 at night.
28% of knowledge workers thatuse Microsoft products are
(15:15):
working between 10 and 11 atnight, and this can be seen two
ways.
It can be a marker of our moreflexible work arrangements.
The research suggests it canalso be a marker of burnout and
exhaustion.
So I think these guardrails aresome parameters, there's some
guiding principles.
They're not hard and fast rules, it's not a policy, but they
(15:35):
give people some guardrailsabout how do we as an
organization want to usetechnology so we feel like we
can switch off, and the criticalpart is leaders need to buy
into these.
Adelaine Ng (15:46):
Yeah, if you're an employee and is noticing all
these things and you're noticingalso that your leadership isn't
quite aware of the impact thatit's having on the team, are
there subtle ways you can justsay this is something that needs
to be looked into?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (16:05):
Yeah, send them this podcast.
This section found this reallyinteresting.
You don't have to be the bearerof bad news.
I have found working withleaders that if you I mean you
can take the approach.
I think there's two ways to goabout it.
You can take the well-beingapproach, that I feel exhausted,
i feel depleted.
The research tells us that wehave a concerning number We are
(16:26):
actually global leaders here inAustralia in terms of rates of
burnout at the moment, stressand burnout.
Microsoft data is telling usthis.
Other global studies are sayingthis is a huge issue here.
So you can go the well-beingroute.
As in my, tech habits having aprofound impact on my well-being
, i have found from myexperience and this could be
just my experience, but I thinkwhen you take the performance
(16:49):
productivity route, you oftenhave leaders who are interested
in KPIs and outcomes andtangible, measurable
deliverables.
That can sometimes be more wellreceived.
So I can't perform at anoptimal level if I'm still
working at 11 o'clock at night.
So I have found that if I canswitch off, i'm much more
productive the next day.
(17:10):
But I think it's just havingthe opportunity to talk about
these tech expectations isreally, really important And I
think I actually I'm quiteconcerned that if organizations
aren't on the front foot here,if they're not coming up with
some team agreements, or thedigital guardrails, as I call
them, i think in Australia wewill soon see there's some
(17:32):
legislation being tabled at themoment around the right to
disconnect.
The Australian Institutecommissioned a study last year
and they found I think it was85% of Australians said they
would support legislation aroundthe right to disconnect.
So I think we will soon seelegislation around this space if
organizations aren't beingproactive here.
Adelaine Ng (17:53):
Yeah, that'll be amazing.
Do you see much willingness,motivation on the part of
companies I mean big or small toput something like this in
place?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (18:03):
I am at the beginning stages.
I don't think it's beenvoraciously adopted.
I often talk to organizationsabout what digital distractions
are costing in terms ofproductivity and performance And
, again, when you can quantifywhat these things cost
organizations and when you cantalk about you know how we are
seeing rates of burnout and theimpact of burnout again on
(18:25):
employees and leadersperformance.
I think then it becomes a realissue in terms of setting up the
guardrails.
I think that will be agreements.
I think they're sometimes seenat the moment still is a nice to
have.
We'll get around to that.
I think that, like you said atthe beginning, there's a time
sensitivity to this.
I think one of the chiefreasons why we have rates of
burnout the way that we do andwe can't ignore the fact we've
(18:47):
been through a global pandemic.
We are facing financialuncertainty, there's global
issues that could be impactingupon us.
I think they're all very validreasons why we might see stress
and burnout at all time highs,but I think one of the chief, if
not the chief, reason is thatsubtle tech habits that are
having a huge impact on us.
So I think the organizationsthat take a proactive step will
(19:11):
be well in advance of theircolleagues and counterparts.
Adelaine Ng (19:15):
Completely agree.
Kristy, you're the queen oftaming digital.
It's easy to think that you'vegot this all down pat.
Do you ever unravel?
Do you ever personally?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (19:25):
burnout Gosh.
Yes, the reason I wrote thisbook is that I had experienced
burnout twice And it was my techhabits that were out of control
.
It was a really seriousaccident that I had with my
middle son, billy.
I became digitally distractedtriaging my inbox.
Billy was climbing on a loungeHe was about 15 months at the
time.
I was trying to triage my inboxafter having flown back from an
(19:47):
international visit And I wasso distracted in my inbox that I
didn't watch Billy, and Billyfell face first off the lounge
and required urgenthospitalization, and it was at
this point in time that Irealized my tech habits were out
of control.
Despite researching this,despite speaking about this, i
didn't have a handle on my techhabits.
I'm guilty of doom scrollingsocial media.
(20:10):
I'm not impartial to sometrashy TV binge watching on
Netflix.
Selling sunset is my weaknessat the moment.
Please don't judge me, but it'shard And I'm not perfect at it,
but I know what I can do when Ireally need to rein things back
in And when I can take backcontrol.
I feel like I'm in a lucky,fortuitous position where I know
(20:32):
some of the micro habits that Ineed to just start to reapply,
but far from perfect in thisspace.
Adelaine Ng (20:38):
Well, you've given us that exact roadmap in your
book, so this is a gift, i think, to all of us.
But where do you see peoplefailing, if they do, or
struggling the most when they'retrying to implement these
changes?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (20:52):
Trying to do too many things all at once.
So trying to do a radicaldigital overhaul or doing, you
know, the extreme digital detox.
I often say three to five tothrive.
Pick three to five little microhabits, embed those and then
move on to some others.
If you try to do you know it'slike changing your diet
radically.
You'll stick at it for a coupleof days But then the willpower
(21:14):
will deplete and you'll revertback to your old habits.
I think just making smalllittle adjustments.
I often say don't try and eatthe whole watermelon, just take
small little bites.
And I often remind people thatthe basics work.
If you work the basics.
Look at what tech habits mighthave the most profound impact
And hopefully our conversationtoday will remind you, you know,
(21:35):
could it be as something assimple as turning off your
notifications.
Could it be as simple asactivating do not disturb or
focus mode.
Could it mean putting yourphone somewhere where you can't
see it while you get yourfocused work done.
I think pick the lever that youcould pull.
That would have the biggestimpact And for many it is often
(21:55):
around our tech habits, aroundour sleep and our tech habits
around being able to sort ofswitch off and decompress.
Adelaine Ng (22:02):
Wonderful.
That's amazing to hear all ofthat.
I've gotten so much out of thisconversation.
So, Kristie, i'm sure a lot ofpeople will be just interested
to find out more.
Obviously, there's your book,but where would you point people
to to find out more informationabout you?
how to get access to resourcesbecause I think you also have a
(22:22):
few free resources as well Andhow do people meet you?
Dr Kristy Goodwin (22:26):
Yes.
So the irony isn't lost on methat I'm saying tame your tech
habits, but come and have a lookat what I share on social media
on my website.
But if you want a legitimatereason to get your dopamine hit
online, if you can say you knowI'm doing some research or it's
work related.
I do have a website that's gotlots of blogs and resources.
It's called drcrystigoodwincomAnd I do try and share bite-size
(22:48):
tips and bits of information onsocial media platforms, in
particular Instagram, if youlike the pretty pictures in the
behind the scenes informationand just small little tips and
ideas.
And LinkedIn is more of myprofessional presence.
So that's the digitalplaygrounds I play in.
Adelaine Ng (23:05):
Kristy, thank you so much.
This has been illuminating AndI wish you all the success and
best for the message that youare sharing, because it is so so
much needed today.
So thank you.
Dr Kristy Goodwin (23:17):
My pleasure.
Thank you for this conversation.
Adelaine Ng (23:20):
Thanks for listening.
I do appreciate it.
Do check out the show notes,where I've put links to Kristy's
new book, dear Digital.
We Need to Talk a guilt-freeguide to taming your tech habits
and thriving in a distractedworld, as well as ways you can
reach Kristy directly or findout more about her work.
If you found value in today'sshow, please click the follow
(23:40):
button if you'd like to benotified when a new episode
drops.
By the way, have you everconsidered launching a podcast
with a strategy to land inApple's top 200 charts in the
first week?
If so, feel free to send me anemail at uponarrivalpodcast@
gmail.
com and we'll explore how we canmake that happen.
Catch you next week for anothergreat interview to uncover more
(24:02):
stories and strategies for asuccessful future.
Till then, cheers.
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