July 13, 2023 • 23 mins
The community of disabled travellers is enormous, yet largely overlooked as a tourism market. That may change once hospitality vendors realise that this market tends to spend up to three times more than the average tourist, even if they're booking budget accommodation. We explore this untapped market, bust some myths about what disabled tourists expect from hospitality providers, and applaud destinations and vendors who do this well, all through the life experiences and observations of disability travel advocate Yasmine Gray.
Yasmine Gray is a passionate globe-trotter living with progressive multiple sclerosis. She graciously opens up the dialog about the real challenges she's faced as a disabled traveller and how these experiences led to her founding GetAboutAble - a movement aimed at transforming the tourism industry into a more inclusive space.
Quotes from this episode:
"Most people who think about accessible tourism think about ramps, and wide doorways and measurements, but that's the compliance piece - inclusive travel is understanding people and asking what can I do to make your visit better?"
"Look at us as one in five travellers. Across the entire spectrum, it's 20% of the market most businesses are completely missing because they don't even think about it, much less work to cater to it."
-Yasmine Gray
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Website: www.getaboutable.com
Email: contact@getaboutable.com
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Email: uponarrivalpodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yasmine Gray (00:00):
People with access needs are high-value travelers.
On average, they spend onlythree times as much as the
average traveler, even ifthey're staying in budget
accommodation.
Adelaine Ng (00:12):
Welcome to Upon Arrival, a show that uncovers
stories and strategies that makeup all the moving parts of
business events tourism.
I'm Adelaine Ng.
The reason why I love doingthis podcast is because I get to
learn so much from my guests,and this interview was no
exception.
This episode goes back to themore business end of travel and
(00:33):
hospitality to reveal a world Ihave sadly not known a whole lot
about before, and it's aboutwhat disabled tourists can offer
the tourism market.
Now I know the way we talkabout the disabled in our
communities can be a pro-keysubject and I might even be
accused of treating this tooclinically by speaking of our
disabled friends as a market.
(00:55):
Not.
My guest, who has an autoimmunecondition, has been waving her
hands at the tourism industry,trying to get more attention to
see disabled tourists as apowerfully lucrative market
right under their noses thatthey've mostly overlooked.
Yasmine Gray is theCanberra-based founder of Get
Aboutable spelled Get About Ablea movement of humans with
(01:18):
varying degrees of disabilitythat would love to see more
inclusiveness at tourism in waysthat can pay back big time.
Here's my conversation withYasmine, and you'll hear that
her voice has been impacted byher condition.
So if you have challengeslistening.
There is a written, shorterversion of this interview that
I'll link in the show notes.
(01:39):
Yasmine, thank you so much forgiving us your time and telling
us your story.
Where did your passion foraccessibility issues in tourism
begin, and how did you end upbecoming a champion for its
causes?
Yasmine Gray (01:53):
Oh, that actually causes me to go back my whole
life.
I've been a lifelong traveler.
I have been traveling long-haulflights since I was six months
old.
Until COVID, I hadn't gone ayear without using my passport
And, yeah, whether it be forfamily holidays or business or
(02:14):
for whatever reason, just seeingdifferent places, experiencing
new cultures, has been part ofmy being.
It's just something I'm verypassionate about.
So as my disability progressed,as my incapacity progressed, it
became more and more difficult,And there is a lot in the
(02:35):
travel and tourism industriesthat is not accessible.
And basically I found myselfretired and really wanting to
still do something with my brainAnd finding that travel was
something I still wanted to do.
And so, because I'd been doingworkarounds to keep traveling
for myself, I thought surelythere are other people like me
(02:58):
who are finding it just asfrustrating, and there's so
little information out therethat now we've got to solve this
problem.
Adelaine Ng (03:06):
What you have explained to people is that you
have multiple sclerosis.
Would that be right?
Yasmine Gray (03:10):
Yes, so I was diagnosed with multiple
sclerosis in 1996.
I probably have had symptomssince about 1985.
And for those who don't know,multiple sclerosis it's an
autoimmune disease of thecentral nervous system And so
basically my major nerves and mybrain will short-circuit, which
(03:35):
can cause all sorts of funproblems And in my case at the
moment it's not being able towork and not being very weak
arms.
But it wasn't always like that.
It started with a few twitcheshere and there, a few pins and
needles.
The reason why it took over 10years to be diagnosed is because
(03:57):
it was all these collection ofreally weird symptoms and could
easily be explained by otherthings Like I had pins and
needles in my legs, I was bikeriding too much, I had pins and
needles in my arms, or my armswent numb, I was leaning on my
elbows too much when I wasstudying, Yeah, things like that
(04:17):
.
So for years it was like oh,this is weird, This is weird,
But never quite getting in thesituation.
But then I moved to cities Andwhen I went to a new doctor with
the collection of all the weirdthings that have been happening
, I was diagnosed with an op.
Adelaine Ng (04:37):
So it sounds like that has meant you now need to
get around in a little vehicle.
Yasmine Gray (04:43):
A power wheelchair .
Adelaine Ng (04:44):
A power wheelchair okay, but it does sound like
that will be frustrating forsomeone who loved being able to
travel freely without anyconstraints.
And I'm just wondering is thissomething that you can fairly
easily take on planes with youwhen you travel overseas?
No, not at all.
How does that work?
Yasmine Gray (05:03):
No, and in fact, as Faraday mentioned, it's not
quite limiting.
Actually, i found more limitingthe stage where I was still
walking, but walking slowly andwith a cane, because then I
would tire very easily and Iwouldn't be able to go on long
walks the way I used to, and Iwasn't yet requiring so much
(05:27):
assistance that it was labeledassistance, but I still needed.
It would have been very helpfulto have more benches or
different spots that I couldstop and still enjoy myself and
rest, but not actually beingtrusive.
And so that's what we talkabout at Get About a Roll, about
(05:52):
inclusive travel How do youcater to everyone, regardless of
what their physical needs are?
And that physical need caninclude invisible disabilities,
psycho-sensual disabilities,intellectual disabilities, can
include other areas ofneurodiversity, people who are
hearing impaired, people who arevisiting impaired.
(06:14):
We did a review of an event andI just happened to be with the
vision impaired reviewer who isclassified as totally blind And
I don't know if you knowEnlightening Canberra, but it's
a light Like they do projectionson buildings, it's a bit like
vivid in Sydney, and we were atone of the light installations
(06:37):
and the woman who is classifiedas blind started saying, oh, are
they changing color And we'relike what are you talking about?
And she's like there'ssomething in front of us and
it's changing color And it wasso subtle, very subtle changes.
But because her blindness, shecan see light fluctuation, so
(06:58):
she didn't know what she wasseeing, but she could see some
sort of a change, which is whyshe asked.
And it's amazing, when youexperience travel with all sorts
of different water classifiedas disabilities We like to talk
about them as access needs Youexperience those in completely
(07:19):
different ways, and that's thejoy of travel is experiencing
from different perspectives.
So, yeah, it's part of whatmakes me very passionate about
what we do.
Adelaine Ng (07:32):
That's actually quite beautiful what you just
shared.
I'm wondering how big is thecommunity of people who love
travel and have disabilities?
I'm sure there's communitybands together and shares notes.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat community?
Yasmine Gray (07:47):
Yeah, so I mean one in five, one in six people
has some form of disability.
And that doesn't even count,you know, the older population
or others who might neverclassify themselves as having a
disability.
Australian Bureau of Statisticsestimates those one in three
households.
So when we talk about travelerswith access needs, we say don't
(08:13):
look at us as a specific niche,Look at us as one in five
travelers across the entirespectrum.
It's 20% of the market and formost businesses it's 20% of the
market that they are completelymissing Because they don't even
think about it, much less workto cater to it.
And it's not that hard.
(08:35):
Most people who think aboutaccessible tourism think about
ramps and wide doorways andmeasurements.
But that's the compliance piece, That's for building standards.
What we need for inclusivetravel is understanding of
people, to understand that wehave needs and just ask what can
(08:55):
I do to make your visit better?
Adelaine Ng (08:58):
Is there monetary value that you've been able to
place on the disability travelmarket?
Yasmine Gray (09:05):
Absolutely I mean in Australia.
We just heard from tourismAustralia.
A couple of months ago theycame to speak at our annual
conference And they added valueto $13.5 billion annually in
2021.
So we added value to just over$10 billion before the pandemic
(09:27):
And in the year that it wasmeasured it was just more than
the Chinese tourism market.
So if you think of how traveland tourism operators cater to
the Chinese market and theefforts they put into that, this
is the market that's at leastthat big and growing.
We estimate it's going to betwo or three times as big once
(09:50):
people start looking at it, andthat's what we're seeing.
We're seeing this tidal wave ofinterest in accessible and
inclusive tourism.
It started in the pandemicbecause travel operators weren't
looking for markets, and itreally is.
It's a hidden gem And I knowI've got a vested interest in
saying that, but I've been doingthis for a long time And I'm
(10:14):
just banging my head on the wallgoing.
why don't people see howvaluable this is?
I mean, people with accessneeds are high value travelers.
On average, they spend almostthree times as much as the
average traveler, even ifthey're staying in budget
accommodation, and the reason isbecause they travel with more
(10:34):
companions, they stay for longerand they're more loyal.
So, yeah, i feel like it's justa big secret that's going to
get out.
And another presenter at ourconference last year said the
bus that's going and get on now,before it goes, because at the
(10:55):
moment it's a differentiator.
Anybody with access needs willpay attention.
Adelaine Ng (11:02):
It sounds like you are still up against so much
resistance in the tourism andhospitality industry.
What do you think is thebiggest misconception about
accessible travel that you'reencountering?
Yasmine Gray (11:15):
First of all, i wouldn't call it resistance.
I don't think it's activeresistance, i think it's fear.
The biggest hurdle is thepreconception that it's too
expensive or it's too difficult.
Because, looking at it from thecompliance viewpoint if you
live it, not if you live it, ifyou work in an old heritage
(11:36):
building the way to get itcompliant and successful could
be very expensive.
But to get a customer serviceinclusive is quite a different
conversation.
So, yeah, i think theresistance is more about the
fear and the fear of the unknown, the fear of what they've seen
in the past.
(11:58):
And one of the things that it'stalked about quite a bit in the
disability community is themedia perception that we just
don't have in our society.
Many examples of people withdisability getting out and
experiencing life just likeanyone else with their families
and friends, and that again ispart of that title wave that's
(12:19):
really changed over the lastyear, year and a bit.
There are more and more eyecampaigns that very subtly
include people with disabilitiesthat most of the population
would never even notice.
But I'll tell you what somebodywith that disability will
notice and they feel included.
Adelaine Ng (12:40):
You mentioned the pandemic a little bit earlier.
Apart from it, i guess givingspace to raise the issues that
you've been trying to raise didthe pandemic impact accessible
travel.
That was different to, i guess,how it impacted the rest of the
tourism sector, which was the Iwas going to say, most of the
impacts that I can think of arethe same as the rest of the
(13:01):
tourism sector.
Yasmine Gray (13:03):
Everything got more expensive, everything got
more limited.
As I mentioned before thepandemic, i'd never gone a year
without using my passport,usually multiple times.
I haven't used my passportsince the pandemic.
Part of that is because throughthe pandemic, i have become
more disabled, and that had todo with lack of access to rehab
(13:26):
facilities during the lockdowns,and my disability has
progressed substantially Overthe last couple years, which is
a deep frustration of mine.
But I'm also enjoying more roadtrips.
Yeah, my bucket list used to bearound the world and during the
pandemic I actually wrote up anAustralian bucket list.
(13:49):
I was like well, i've beenliving here more than 30 years,
how have I still not gone totell me?
how have I still not gone to wanow?
and so you know, as long as theairfares are very expensive, i
think I'm going to enjoytraveling around here for a
while.
And the other thing is veryexciting way There was a
(14:11):
conference very recently inHamburg, germany, which is
aircraft interiors.
They gave the prototype of aStay in your wheelchair walking
system on aircraft.
So you probably don't know, butaircraft is the only form of
transport Where will chair userscannot stand a wheelchair and
(14:34):
for somebody like me who hasquite a specialized wheelchair,
long flight or any flights it'sactually quite traumatic.
I suffer quite literally, butduring the flight and after the
flight, because of what I haveto do to take a flight And it's
literally given me something tolive for.
I want to see the day when Ican get on a plane on my
(14:57):
wheelchair.
Now they're saying as close asthree years away.
I'd probably say five to ten,but I'm really looking forward
to it.
Adelaine Ng (15:05):
Well, i'm keeping my fingers crossed for you,
because you've traveled all overthe world, and even with your
wheelchair.
In your opinion, which is themost disability friendly country
in the world, and what did youlove about it?
Yasmine Gray (15:19):
If we go home country, i'll start in our
region.
In our region, singapore isincredibly accessible and
inclusive Every step of the way,from when you land at the
airport.
Everything is designed to beall inclusive And the culture is
such that people will help.
(15:39):
People with disability areincluded in that society.
It's I remember sitting atbreakfast one day and I was like
three wheelchairs, one cochlearimplant to White canes, people
who are busy and Whenever I everseen that in a normal
(15:59):
environment like yes, sure,disability conference.
But like I was actually lookingaround saying is there a
disability conference I don'tknow about here And I mean it
wasn't, it wasn't everybody, soit was quite clearly not a
disability conference.
But we're certainly getting outthat Singapore is a very
(16:21):
inclusive society.
The reason I put Singaporefirst is because there is a
country in US made for ourcountry.
Barcelona is incredibly.
There are a number of cities Ican think of that are very
inclusive.
There are countries that aremaking efforts, but it tends to
be more destinations that areinclusive.
(16:42):
Yeah, i'd say Barcelona wouldbe one of my topics.
Adelaine Ng (16:47):
Well, i'm sure if we have a disability traveler
listening now, they would belooking for your website in the
hurry, just to see where all thedifferent destinations that
they might travel to.
That would be a bit friendlierto some of the things that they
dread coping with whenever theydo travel, so it's such a
valuable community that you'reproviding.
(17:08):
If you're a tourism operator,though, what reliable resources
can they turn to for advice andfor imagining ways to create
more accessible services?
would that just be the getdebatable website?
Yasmine Gray (17:23):
Well, we're.
We're putting more and more tipsheets on our website.
We're actually going throughthe process of a re-bent at the
moment.
So we do work with a lot ofbusinesses and I'd say the first
thing is to contact us.
I go through the website or acontact at getaboutablecom, and
(17:44):
We certainly are happy to gothrough with the business and
help them figure out where theyare on the journey And and how
to take the next step.
In terms of other resources, iwould say you can Google how my
business be more accessible andinclusive there are lots of
different resources and Talk toyour local tourism body or the
(18:08):
local yeah, traveling towardssome Association and again, talk
to us and we can definitelyhelp navigate that journey as
we're bringing this interview toa close, i have to ask you what
are some of the mostimaginative ways you've seen
tourism operators incorporateservices for the accessible and
inclusive Market, ideas that youknow.
Adelaine Ng (18:30):
You thought that is amazing.
That really excited you.
Yasmine Gray (18:34):
Yes, there are so many.
There is a hotel in the UK Thathas a ceiling hoist.
You probably don't know what aceiling hoist track is like, but
think of it as an upside downmonorail.
Okay, okay, and that goesacross the ceiling and They had
(18:55):
done a ceiling, like molding, insuch a way That if you did not
know it was a ceiling hoist,because the ceiling hoist track
then goes into a closet in thehoist.
Well, get stored in the closet.
So when you come into the hotelroom you do not see the ceiling
hoist Because it's like, yeah,the way they've done the molding
(19:17):
of this, it's really hard toexplain.
It's one of those things.
You need a picture.
Adelaine Ng (19:21):
It sounds a little line which in the wardrobe.
Yasmine Gray (19:25):
No, no, actually it was more like our deck out
And it was clear in that whenyou're using the ceiling hoist,
you could use it.
But It wasn't like in your faceas soon as you walk in the
hotel room.
Yeah, very often it is.
Adelaine Ng (19:43):
Yeah, well, if they have a ceiling hoist, yeah, i
guess I was referencing the book, the line the witch in the
wardrobe, where you know Youhave to go through a secret.
You know, through a cabinet, asecret door, yeah.
And then on the other side isthis other world.
But nobody knew about it.
You know you had, yeah.
Yasmine Gray (20:00):
Well, that's how I would describe Accessible
travel.
If you don't need it, you haveno idea it's there, but it's
amazing how many differentthings are there and if it's
done well, you don't know it'sthere.
And, and that's the thing is,most people, when they think of
accessibility, they're thinkingof the ugly Hospital like
(20:22):
looking, you know, plastic upthe wall or metal up the wall.
I've seen so many examples ofIt being done really well And
again it's done on the originalbuild.
It's not done as a retro fit,it's the retro fits a little bit
ugly, but yeah, the style thatcan be achieved if it's actually
(20:44):
thought about it is amazing.
And that's when it doesn't feellike accessibility.
It feels like a holiday and Andthat's the one so I really love
.
Adelaine Ng (20:56):
Amazing, yes, and I'm gonna ask you a question
that I used to ask guests on onmy podcast Back during the days
of the pandemic Which was whatwould be the first country you
would travel to the minute theborders all unlocked and you
could travel again?
So in your case, if all theairlines, all your preferred
airlines, made it possible foryou to travel with your special
(21:21):
chair, where would be the firstcountry you would go to, and why
?
Yasmine Gray (21:25):
It wouldn't be a country.
Number one on my bucket list isAntarctica.
So going to South America, toAustralia, and taking an
icebreaker and you know wheelson the continent, antarctica
hands down.
And that, of course, has notonly getting on the plane to
(21:46):
Australia but also to getting onan icebreaker.
And you know I don't want to goon these one of these big
cruise ships that are glides bythe outer edges of the icebergs.
I want to actually put mywheels on the continent And you
know, for anyone who's done thattrip, you know there are so
(22:10):
many layers of accessibilityrequirements.
I don't know if I'll ever getto do it, but that is number one
on my list.
Adelaine Ng (22:17):
Well, i hope that you get there.
Antarctica is one of my dreambucket destinations as well.
I don't know if I'll ever getthere.
We have to, i guess, make acouple of things happen before
that becomes a reality, but itsounds like you have a few more
hurdles than someone who doesnot have accessibility issues to
get to that goal.
So you've raised a whole lot ofreally important issues for our
(22:42):
awareness, so I do thank youfor that.
That's been an amazing insightinto the world of people who
travel with disabilities, and Ididn't realize how big that
world was and how simple it isactually to just fix a couple of
things.
That can make a massive amountof difference.
So thank you for sharing that.
You're welcome.
(23:02):
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening.
I do appreciate it.
Do check out the show noteswhere I've put links to
Yasmine's organization Get A BadAbel.
If you found value in today'sshow, please click the follow
button if you'd like to benotified when a new episode
drops.
By the way, have you everconsidered launching a podcast
with a strategy to land inApple's top 200 charts in the
(23:25):
first week?
If so, feel free to send me anemail at
uponarivalpodcastatgmailcom andwe'll explore how we can make it
happen.
Catch you next week for anothergreat interview.
We'll uncover more stories andstrategies for a successful
future.
Till then, cheers.
People with access needs are high-value travelers.
On average, they spend onlythree times as much as the
average traveler, even ifthey're staying in budget
accommodation.
Adelaine Ng (00:12):
Welcome to Upon Arrival, a show that uncovers
stories and strategies that makeup all the moving parts of
business events tourism.
I'm Adelaine Ng.
The reason why I love doingthis podcast is because I get to
learn so much from my guests,and this interview was no
exception.
This episode goes back to themore business end of travel and
(00:33):
hospitality to reveal a world Ihave sadly not known a whole lot
about before, and it's aboutwhat disabled tourists can offer
the tourism market.
Now I know the way we talkabout the disabled in our
communities can be a pro-keysubject and I might even be
accused of treating this tooclinically by speaking of our
disabled friends as a market.
(00:55):
Not.
My guest, who has an autoimmunecondition, has been waving her
hands at the tourism industry,trying to get more attention to
see disabled tourists as apowerfully lucrative market
right under their noses thatthey've mostly overlooked.
Yasmine Gray is theCanberra-based founder of Get
Aboutable spelled Get About Ablea movement of humans with
(01:18):
varying degrees of disabilitythat would love to see more
inclusiveness at tourism in waysthat can pay back big time.
Here's my conversation withYasmine, and you'll hear that
her voice has been impacted byher condition.
So if you have challengeslistening.
There is a written, shorterversion of this interview that
I'll link in the show notes.
(01:39):
Yasmine, thank you so much forgiving us your time and telling
us your story.
Where did your passion foraccessibility issues in tourism
begin, and how did you end upbecoming a champion for its
causes?
Yasmine Gray (01:53):
Oh, that actually causes me to go back my whole
life.
I've been a lifelong traveler.
I have been traveling long-haulflights since I was six months
old.
Until COVID, I hadn't gone ayear without using my passport
And, yeah, whether it be forfamily holidays or business or
(02:14):
for whatever reason, just seeingdifferent places, experiencing
new cultures, has been part ofmy being.
It's just something I'm verypassionate about.
So as my disability progressed,as my incapacity progressed, it
became more and more difficult,And there is a lot in the
(02:35):
travel and tourism industriesthat is not accessible.
And basically I found myselfretired and really wanting to
still do something with my brainAnd finding that travel was
something I still wanted to do.
And so, because I'd been doingworkarounds to keep traveling
for myself, I thought surelythere are other people like me
(02:58):
who are finding it just asfrustrating, and there's so
little information out therethat now we've got to solve this
problem.
Adelaine Ng (03:06):
What you have explained to people is that you
have multiple sclerosis.
Would that be right?
Yasmine Gray (03:10):
Yes, so I was diagnosed with multiple
sclerosis in 1996.
I probably have had symptomssince about 1985.
And for those who don't know,multiple sclerosis it's an
autoimmune disease of thecentral nervous system And so
basically my major nerves and mybrain will short-circuit, which
(03:35):
can cause all sorts of funproblems And in my case at the
moment it's not being able towork and not being very weak
arms.
But it wasn't always like that.
It started with a few twitcheshere and there, a few pins and
needles.
The reason why it took over 10years to be diagnosed is because
(03:57):
it was all these collection ofreally weird symptoms and could
easily be explained by otherthings Like I had pins and
needles in my legs, I was bikeriding too much, I had pins and
needles in my arms, or my armswent numb, I was leaning on my
elbows too much when I wasstudying, Yeah, things like that
(04:17):
.
So for years it was like oh,this is weird, This is weird,
But never quite getting in thesituation.
But then I moved to cities Andwhen I went to a new doctor with
the collection of all the weirdthings that have been happening
, I was diagnosed with an op.
Adelaine Ng (04:37):
So it sounds like that has meant you now need to
get around in a little vehicle.
Yasmine Gray (04:43):
A power wheelchair .
Adelaine Ng (04:44):
A power wheelchair okay, but it does sound like
that will be frustrating forsomeone who loved being able to
travel freely without anyconstraints.
And I'm just wondering is thissomething that you can fairly
easily take on planes with youwhen you travel overseas?
No, not at all.
How does that work?
Yasmine Gray (05:03):
No, and in fact, as Faraday mentioned, it's not
quite limiting.
Actually, i found more limitingthe stage where I was still
walking, but walking slowly andwith a cane, because then I
would tire very easily and Iwouldn't be able to go on long
walks the way I used to, and Iwasn't yet requiring so much
(05:27):
assistance that it was labeledassistance, but I still needed.
It would have been very helpfulto have more benches or
different spots that I couldstop and still enjoy myself and
rest, but not actually beingtrusive.
And so that's what we talkabout at Get About a Roll, about
(05:52):
inclusive travel How do youcater to everyone, regardless of
what their physical needs are?
And that physical need caninclude invisible disabilities,
psycho-sensual disabilities,intellectual disabilities, can
include other areas ofneurodiversity, people who are
hearing impaired, people who arevisiting impaired.
(06:14):
We did a review of an event andI just happened to be with the
vision impaired reviewer who isclassified as totally blind And
I don't know if you knowEnlightening Canberra, but it's
a light Like they do projectionson buildings, it's a bit like
vivid in Sydney, and we were atone of the light installations
(06:37):
and the woman who is classifiedas blind started saying, oh, are
they changing color And we'relike what are you talking about?
And she's like there'ssomething in front of us and
it's changing color And it wasso subtle, very subtle changes.
But because her blindness, shecan see light fluctuation, so
(06:58):
she didn't know what she wasseeing, but she could see some
sort of a change, which is whyshe asked.
And it's amazing, when youexperience travel with all sorts
of different water classifiedas disabilities We like to talk
about them as access needs Youexperience those in completely
(07:19):
different ways, and that's thejoy of travel is experiencing
from different perspectives.
So, yeah, it's part of whatmakes me very passionate about
what we do.
Adelaine Ng (07:32):
That's actually quite beautiful what you just
shared.
I'm wondering how big is thecommunity of people who love
travel and have disabilities?
I'm sure there's communitybands together and shares notes.
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat community?
Yasmine Gray (07:47):
Yeah, so I mean one in five, one in six people
has some form of disability.
And that doesn't even count,you know, the older population
or others who might neverclassify themselves as having a
disability.
Australian Bureau of Statisticsestimates those one in three
households.
So when we talk about travelerswith access needs, we say don't
(08:13):
look at us as a specific niche,Look at us as one in five
travelers across the entirespectrum.
It's 20% of the market and formost businesses it's 20% of the
market that they are completelymissing Because they don't even
think about it, much less workto cater to it.
And it's not that hard.
(08:35):
Most people who think aboutaccessible tourism think about
ramps and wide doorways andmeasurements.
But that's the compliance piece, That's for building standards.
What we need for inclusivetravel is understanding of
people, to understand that wehave needs and just ask what can
(08:55):
I do to make your visit better?
Adelaine Ng (08:58):
Is there monetary value that you've been able to
place on the disability travelmarket?
Yasmine Gray (09:05):
Absolutely I mean in Australia.
We just heard from tourismAustralia.
A couple of months ago theycame to speak at our annual
conference And they added valueto $13.5 billion annually in
2021.
So we added value to just over$10 billion before the pandemic
(09:27):
And in the year that it wasmeasured it was just more than
the Chinese tourism market.
So if you think of how traveland tourism operators cater to
the Chinese market and theefforts they put into that, this
is the market that's at leastthat big and growing.
We estimate it's going to betwo or three times as big once
(09:50):
people start looking at it, andthat's what we're seeing.
We're seeing this tidal wave ofinterest in accessible and
inclusive tourism.
It started in the pandemicbecause travel operators weren't
looking for markets, and itreally is.
It's a hidden gem And I knowI've got a vested interest in
saying that, but I've been doingthis for a long time And I'm
(10:14):
just banging my head on the wallgoing.
why don't people see howvaluable this is?
I mean, people with accessneeds are high value travelers.
On average, they spend almostthree times as much as the
average traveler, even ifthey're staying in budget
accommodation, and the reason isbecause they travel with more
(10:34):
companions, they stay for longerand they're more loyal.
So, yeah, i feel like it's justa big secret that's going to
get out.
And another presenter at ourconference last year said the
bus that's going and get on now,before it goes, because at the
(10:55):
moment it's a differentiator.
Anybody with access needs willpay attention.
Adelaine Ng (11:02):
It sounds like you are still up against so much
resistance in the tourism andhospitality industry.
What do you think is thebiggest misconception about
accessible travel that you'reencountering?
Yasmine Gray (11:15):
First of all, i wouldn't call it resistance.
I don't think it's activeresistance, i think it's fear.
The biggest hurdle is thepreconception that it's too
expensive or it's too difficult.
Because, looking at it from thecompliance viewpoint if you
live it, not if you live it, ifyou work in an old heritage
(11:36):
building the way to get itcompliant and successful could
be very expensive.
But to get a customer serviceinclusive is quite a different
conversation.
So, yeah, i think theresistance is more about the
fear and the fear of the unknown, the fear of what they've seen
in the past.
(11:58):
And one of the things that it'stalked about quite a bit in the
disability community is themedia perception that we just
don't have in our society.
Many examples of people withdisability getting out and
experiencing life just likeanyone else with their families
and friends, and that again ispart of that title wave that's
(12:19):
really changed over the lastyear, year and a bit.
There are more and more eyecampaigns that very subtly
include people with disabilitiesthat most of the population
would never even notice.
But I'll tell you what somebodywith that disability will
notice and they feel included.
Adelaine Ng (12:40):
You mentioned the pandemic a little bit earlier.
Apart from it, i guess givingspace to raise the issues that
you've been trying to raise didthe pandemic impact accessible
travel.
That was different to, i guess,how it impacted the rest of the
tourism sector, which was the Iwas going to say, most of the
impacts that I can think of arethe same as the rest of the
(13:01):
tourism sector.
Yasmine Gray (13:03):
Everything got more expensive, everything got
more limited.
As I mentioned before thepandemic, i'd never gone a year
without using my passport,usually multiple times.
I haven't used my passportsince the pandemic.
Part of that is because throughthe pandemic, i have become
more disabled, and that had todo with lack of access to rehab
(13:26):
facilities during the lockdowns,and my disability has
progressed substantially Overthe last couple years, which is
a deep frustration of mine.
But I'm also enjoying more roadtrips.
Yeah, my bucket list used to bearound the world and during the
pandemic I actually wrote up anAustralian bucket list.
(13:49):
I was like well, i've beenliving here more than 30 years,
how have I still not gone totell me?
how have I still not gone to wanow?
and so you know, as long as theairfares are very expensive, i
think I'm going to enjoytraveling around here for a
while.
And the other thing is veryexciting way There was a
(14:11):
conference very recently inHamburg, germany, which is
aircraft interiors.
They gave the prototype of aStay in your wheelchair walking
system on aircraft.
So you probably don't know, butaircraft is the only form of
transport Where will chair userscannot stand a wheelchair and
(14:34):
for somebody like me who hasquite a specialized wheelchair,
long flight or any flights it'sactually quite traumatic.
I suffer quite literally, butduring the flight and after the
flight, because of what I haveto do to take a flight And it's
literally given me something tolive for.
I want to see the day when Ican get on a plane on my
(14:57):
wheelchair.
Now they're saying as close asthree years away.
I'd probably say five to ten,but I'm really looking forward
to it.
Adelaine Ng (15:05):
Well, i'm keeping my fingers crossed for you,
because you've traveled all overthe world, and even with your
wheelchair.
In your opinion, which is themost disability friendly country
in the world, and what did youlove about it?
Yasmine Gray (15:19):
If we go home country, i'll start in our
region.
In our region, singapore isincredibly accessible and
inclusive Every step of the way,from when you land at the
airport.
Everything is designed to beall inclusive And the culture is
such that people will help.
(15:39):
People with disability areincluded in that society.
It's I remember sitting atbreakfast one day and I was like
three wheelchairs, one cochlearimplant to White canes, people
who are busy and Whenever I everseen that in a normal
(15:59):
environment like yes, sure,disability conference.
But like I was actually lookingaround saying is there a
disability conference I don'tknow about here And I mean it
wasn't, it wasn't everybody, soit was quite clearly not a
disability conference.
But we're certainly getting outthat Singapore is a very
(16:21):
inclusive society.
The reason I put Singaporefirst is because there is a
country in US made for ourcountry.
Barcelona is incredibly.
There are a number of cities Ican think of that are very
inclusive.
There are countries that aremaking efforts, but it tends to
be more destinations that areinclusive.
(16:42):
Yeah, i'd say Barcelona wouldbe one of my topics.
Adelaine Ng (16:47):
Well, i'm sure if we have a disability traveler
listening now, they would belooking for your website in the
hurry, just to see where all thedifferent destinations that
they might travel to.
That would be a bit friendlierto some of the things that they
dread coping with whenever theydo travel, so it's such a
valuable community that you'reproviding.
(17:08):
If you're a tourism operator,though, what reliable resources
can they turn to for advice andfor imagining ways to create
more accessible services?
would that just be the getdebatable website?
Yasmine Gray (17:23):
Well, we're.
We're putting more and more tipsheets on our website.
We're actually going throughthe process of a re-bent at the
moment.
So we do work with a lot ofbusinesses and I'd say the first
thing is to contact us.
I go through the website or acontact at getaboutablecom, and
(17:44):
We certainly are happy to gothrough with the business and
help them figure out where theyare on the journey And and how
to take the next step.
In terms of other resources, iwould say you can Google how my
business be more accessible andinclusive there are lots of
different resources and Talk toyour local tourism body or the
(18:08):
local yeah, traveling towardssome Association and again, talk
to us and we can definitelyhelp navigate that journey as
we're bringing this interview toa close, i have to ask you what
are some of the mostimaginative ways you've seen
tourism operators incorporateservices for the accessible and
inclusive Market, ideas that youknow.
Adelaine Ng (18:30):
You thought that is amazing.
That really excited you.
Yasmine Gray (18:34):
Yes, there are so many.
There is a hotel in the UK Thathas a ceiling hoist.
You probably don't know what aceiling hoist track is like, but
think of it as an upside downmonorail.
Okay, okay, and that goesacross the ceiling and They had
(18:55):
done a ceiling, like molding, insuch a way That if you did not
know it was a ceiling hoist,because the ceiling hoist track
then goes into a closet in thehoist.
Well, get stored in the closet.
So when you come into the hotelroom you do not see the ceiling
hoist Because it's like, yeah,the way they've done the molding
(19:17):
of this, it's really hard toexplain.
It's one of those things.
You need a picture.
Adelaine Ng (19:21):
It sounds a little line which in the wardrobe.
Yasmine Gray (19:25):
No, no, actually it was more like our deck out
And it was clear in that whenyou're using the ceiling hoist,
you could use it.
But It wasn't like in your faceas soon as you walk in the
hotel room.
Yeah, very often it is.
Adelaine Ng (19:43):
Yeah, well, if they have a ceiling hoist, yeah, i
guess I was referencing the book, the line the witch in the
wardrobe, where you know Youhave to go through a secret.
You know, through a cabinet, asecret door, yeah.
And then on the other side isthis other world.
But nobody knew about it.
You know you had, yeah.
Yasmine Gray (20:00):
Well, that's how I would describe Accessible
travel.
If you don't need it, you haveno idea it's there, but it's
amazing how many differentthings are there and if it's
done well, you don't know it'sthere.
And, and that's the thing is,most people, when they think of
accessibility, they're thinkingof the ugly Hospital like
(20:22):
looking, you know, plastic upthe wall or metal up the wall.
I've seen so many examples ofIt being done really well And
again it's done on the originalbuild.
It's not done as a retro fit,it's the retro fits a little bit
ugly, but yeah, the style thatcan be achieved if it's actually
(20:44):
thought about it is amazing.
And that's when it doesn't feellike accessibility.
It feels like a holiday and Andthat's the one so I really love
.
Adelaine Ng (20:56):
Amazing, yes, and I'm gonna ask you a question
that I used to ask guests on onmy podcast Back during the days
of the pandemic Which was whatwould be the first country you
would travel to the minute theborders all unlocked and you
could travel again?
So in your case, if all theairlines, all your preferred
airlines, made it possible foryou to travel with your special
(21:21):
chair, where would be the firstcountry you would go to, and why
?
Yasmine Gray (21:25):
It wouldn't be a country.
Number one on my bucket list isAntarctica.
So going to South America, toAustralia, and taking an
icebreaker and you know wheelson the continent, antarctica
hands down.
And that, of course, has notonly getting on the plane to
(21:46):
Australia but also to getting onan icebreaker.
And you know I don't want to goon these one of these big
cruise ships that are glides bythe outer edges of the icebergs.
I want to actually put mywheels on the continent And you
know, for anyone who's done thattrip, you know there are so
(22:10):
many layers of accessibilityrequirements.
I don't know if I'll ever getto do it, but that is number one
on my list.
Adelaine Ng (22:17):
Well, i hope that you get there.
Antarctica is one of my dreambucket destinations as well.
I don't know if I'll ever getthere.
We have to, i guess, make acouple of things happen before
that becomes a reality, but itsounds like you have a few more
hurdles than someone who doesnot have accessibility issues to
get to that goal.
So you've raised a whole lot ofreally important issues for our
(22:42):
awareness, so I do thank youfor that.
That's been an amazing insightinto the world of people who
travel with disabilities, and Ididn't realize how big that
world was and how simple it isactually to just fix a couple of
things.
That can make a massive amountof difference.
So thank you for sharing that.
You're welcome.
(23:02):
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening.
I do appreciate it.
Do check out the show noteswhere I've put links to
Yasmine's organization Get A BadAbel.
If you found value in today'sshow, please click the follow
button if you'd like to benotified when a new episode
drops.
By the way, have you everconsidered launching a podcast
with a strategy to land inApple's top 200 charts in the
(23:25):
first week?
If so, feel free to send me anemail at
uponarivalpodcastatgmailcom andwe'll explore how we can make it
happen.
Catch you next week for anothergreat interview.
We'll uncover more stories andstrategies for a successful
future.
Till then, cheers.
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