Enduring Love: Navigating Addiction, Infidelity, and Loss in a 57-Year Marriage

What if enduring love could withstand the formidable trials of addiction, infidelity, and personal loss? Join us for a heartfelt conversation with John and Diana Snowden, a couple whose 57-year marriage is a testament to resilience and unwavering commitment. Discover how their journey through the cycles of illusion, disillusion, and joy offers profound insights into navigating the complexities of long-term relationships. From their serendipitous high school meeting to overcoming profound personal challenges, John and Diana's story is a powerful reminder that true love can emerge more robust from adversity.

Throughout our discussion, the Snowdens candidly explore the evolution of their marriage, revealing how communication and faith played pivotal roles in overcoming challenges like alcoholism and depression. They share transformative experiences from marriage encounter programs and spiritual retreats, shedding light on the importance of vulnerability and acceptance in healing and growing together. Diana's battle with depression and John's journey towards overcoming manipulation underscore the couple's determination to confront personal imperfections and embrace change.

As we approach the holiday season, the Snowdens' story resonates with the importance of cherishing family and extending kindness to others. They reflect on the impact of infidelity and the devastating loss of their son, emphasizing self-compassion and spiritual faith as vital components of healing. Their inspiring narrative not only highlights the resilience of love but also serves as an invitation to listeners to reflect on their own relationships and the power of dreams, faith, and support in overcoming life's trials.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to US Phenomenon, where possibilities
are endless.
Put down those same oldheadlines.
It's time to expand your mindand question what if?
From paranormal activity toUFOs, bigfoot sightings and
unsolved mysteries, this is USPhenomenon?

Speaker 2 (00:21):
From the Pacific Northwest in the shadow of the
1962 World's Fair, the SpaceNeedle.
Good evening, good afternoon orgood morning, wherever the case
may be for you.
I am your host, mario Magana, acouple housekeeping things as
we get close to ending the year2024.
A big shout out to all you,radio listeners and podcast

(00:42):
listeners Thank you so much formaking us the top 50th podcast
downloaded on our podcastingplatform.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou Again.
I'd love to thank our radiostations KGRG, who is, as I

(01:10):
recently learned, has lost theirbroadcasting license.
So if you're someone out therewho loves to help college radio
stations or just a fan of localradio, please send me a text
775-990-5151.
We want to make sure we takecare of our local radio stations
out there.

(01:31):
So tonight, as we all know thatlove, sometimes when love hurts,
sometimes people run.
There is a couple who hasendured 50 years and has faced
significant challenges,including addiction, infidelity,

(01:53):
bankruptcy, separation, and sixyears ago, a new period of a
beginning of the couplesdeveloped.
A tragic suicide of theiryounger son was devastating and
Diana remarked if we weren'ttogether when our son died, I
know we would never have gottenback together.
Her insight underscores howshared grief can unexpectedly

(02:20):
force deep connections.
With five years, I want to say,say, five years, how about five
decades of marriage, wisdom thesnowdens will share, how to
navigate both good, bad times ina relationship.
Their journey survives a and isa and is a powerful reminder
that love can endure mostanything and, I think, most days

(02:44):
.
I think we all would say it's mypleasure to welcome, uh uh,
john and diana snowden.
Uh, welcome to us.
Phenomenon before we.
Uh, just real quick.
I know that there are couplesout here or even single people
who are always complaining Ican't find somebody.
I can't find anybody.
So 50 years't find anybody.
So 50 years, congratulations toyou guys.

(03:08):
And I thought it was importantto have you guys come on to
share your guys' story andjourney with me and others who
may be going through the hustleand bustle of life right now,
with the holidays vastlyapproaching us work, just all
these commitments that we do forour families and things of that
nature.
So welcome, john and Diane, tothe show.

(03:30):
Thank you so much for coming tohang out.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Hello, hello and thank you, Mario.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
Thanks for inviting us on.
This is going to be aninteresting conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Well, you know, 50 years ups and downs, how in most
relationships nowadays theyounger generation don't seem to
make it out five years or theyget the 20-year itch.
I've heard you know goodfriends of mine saying after 20
years of marriage ending.
What do you say to people whoare listening right now that are
on that cusp?

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Well, my personal view is that the real problem is
that nobody has heard of what'scalled the basic law of life,
and that's basic.
We have no control over that.
I don't have any control overthat either.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
No, just keep doing your thing, just keep going, you
got it.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
But we first learned of the basic law of life, which
goes this way there is anillusion, there's a disillusion
and there's joy.
And most people go through theillusion stage, but they, when
they hit the disillusion whichis basic law of life they don't
know what to do, so they throwin the towel and they run, and

(04:47):
it goes on for years.
Some people just stay in theillusion stage.
Oh, everything's fine, nothing.
We don't ever argue, we neverhad a harsh word between us, and
so they go through thesuperficial experience without
really understanding what itmeans to be married, and they

(05:08):
never hit the joy period.
And we, by the way, wentthrough it more than once, which
will come out, I'm sure, todayhow we went through the illusion
, the disillusion and the joyand then repeated the cycle.
So that's probably one of themain reasons that people don't

(05:29):
make it, that's one.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
There's more, but uh sure and when you, when you two
lovebirds, first met, how?
Where did you guys meet at?

Speaker 4 (05:39):
oh dear, you tell that one Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
It wasn't Facebook, right.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
No, no, no, it wasn't even invented when we were
there.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
By the way, it's actually 57 years 57.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, congratulations , that's great.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
I don't know where the time went, but anyway we met
across a crowded room.
You know that.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
saying Love at first sight.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yes, okay, we were in grade nine and he was on the
other side of the gym.
They used to do that when Iwent to high school.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
I think that still, even when I was, the guys would
be on one side and the galswould be on the other.
For sure, right?
So, it hasn't changed over thedecades.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Okay, good.
Well, I looked across the roomand I saw him standing there and
, I have to admit, yes, my heartdid skip a beat and my friend
said hey, don't get involvedwith him, he's a rebel and
you'll have nothing but trouble.
She was an old girlfriend, butshe became my best friend and

(06:43):
she was thinking of my bestinterest.
The way I look at it now.
And what I didn't know was helooked back at me and he was
thinking the same things, but hewas kind of a macho man, so he
had to pretend that I didn'tspark an interest in him for a

(07:04):
long time actually.
But anyway, our eyes connectedand I thought, okay, well, I'll
listen to my friend and I'lljust put my eyes down, look
someplace else, look around.
And that's how, our first timewe met, there was that little
spark in there.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
Well, my, oh yeah, I noticed.
I noticed this girl across theroom and something went.
Yeah, but I had, my buddieswere around me and I couldn't,
you know, I couldn't move.
13, 14.
Sure, I couldn't admit that Ihad an interest in this girl.
As a matter of fact, later,either that year or the next

(07:45):
year, diana was a talker and shewas sitting at the back of the
row, second row to me, and I wasin the front seat.
I was the scholar, I was at thefront seat learning, and Diana
was talking at the back of therow and the teacher said Diana,

(08:05):
come up here.
So she ended up in the seatbeside me.
Oh nice.
And I looked at her and I saidso everybody could hear, what
did I do to deserve this?
And of course I got chucklesand that was the beginning of my
habit of putting Diana down.

(08:28):
And it just got worse as ofcourse this went on.
But I had been out.
I skipped school one afternoon,about grade 11 maybe, with a
bunch of fellows and we went outand had a bit of drinking going
on in the boat.
But there was a pep rallybecause the next day was a field

(08:49):
day in the county, the districtwe call it here and so we
skipped school and went to thepep rally and they had you
mentioned the boys on one sideand the girls on the other.
You mentioned the boys on oneside and the girls on the other.
We used to do the girls on theinside a circle and the boys on

(09:09):
the outside in a circle, and theone group would go one way and
the other would go the other.
Whenever the music stopped, youhad to dance with the person
opposite.
So this went on and the musicstopped.
And who was standing in frontof me?
But Diana?
Now there was another guystanding beside me.

(09:31):
I think he was interested too,so I just kind of shoved him out
of the way and grabbed hold ofDiana and you can take it from
there, dear.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Well, yes, and it was two nice slow dances and I was
just pitter-patter,pitter-patter.
You know, In those days I waswell protected from home, so I
had to take the cab home at10.30.
Yeah, the pep rally started at9, and I think I'm not sure what
time it was, but they called anintermission.

(10:01):
So we stopped and he stoppedand he didn't leave and I
thought why isn't he didn'tleave and I thought why isn't he
leaving to go and join hisfriends?
But then he knew she has toleave at 10 30.
He knew all these things aboutme that I didn't know.
He knew.
But anyway, that's.
I guess that's the way it wasfor us.
It isn't for everybody.
Some people take long time tobecome friends.

(10:22):
And um and I guess it was ingrade 12 when he decided that he
had to make this grandpronouncement that he was going
to marry me and he loved me and,uh, most women would kind of go
what?
What are you talking about?
But he made it kind of hislife's purpose to do that and um
became, he actually changed.

(10:44):
Then he went, went from thisbusiness of finding jokes to say
about me to not being able todo enough for me.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
So that early part was really really good so I mean
, you're getting engaged at ayoung age, out of high, in high
school.
Out of high school, um, how did?
How did your 20s, in the thevast of your beginning of your
20s, out of your teens into your20s, how did that relationship,
how did you guys continue toevolve as a couple and move

(11:13):
forward?

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Well, he went to St Mary's to play hockey and my
parents didn't really kind oflike that idea.
So I went to Ottawa for mynursing training.
So I had to finish my nursingtraining and, yes, he'd asked me
two or three times when I wasin nursing training to marry him
and I'd say, no, I can't, no, Ihave to get got to get my

(11:37):
nursing training first and thenperhaps after.
So we didn't get marriedparticularly young, we were 23
or so but it was always there.
I just can't explain it toanybody.
It was just always there that Ireally, really cared for him.
I liked what he stood for.
I didn't know about thisdrinking.

(11:58):
Honestly, he hid it so well andI had lots of people in my
family who drank a lot, sure,but I didn't notice.
It was cultural, was Irish, itwas French, like really hello.
I think even to this.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Even to this day, it still seems to be a cultural
thing where it's a social thingwhere everyone's like maybe out,
and most people are able tohide a drinking situation.
I'm, I was just talking tosomebody, uh, the other day,
where I haven't had a you know alick of drink, you know

(12:32):
something to drink and likebesides water and other
non-alcoholic beverages in like77 days and um, not because I
have a drinking issue, but tomake it more of a look, it's
normal not to drink where peopleare like, oh, you know you,
you're not drinking.
It's like what do I do?

(12:53):
You know so?
But so that's as you weresaying, diana you were talking
about.
You didn't know that he would.
There was, there was a mask ofa drinking situation.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Oh yeah, no, I didn't see it at all.
I didn't see it at all.
All I saw was the good thingshe was doing and my dad
French-Canadian Sure, poorFrench-Canadians that are
listening to me, but anyway, mydad was always the jolly type
person when he was drinking andhe just loved John.

(13:28):
He just loved him after he gotto meet him and so forth, and so
he could do no wrong.
It didn't matter what he did ordidn't do.
But then I was not one of theones to run home to mom and dad
and tell them what was going oneither after we got married.
But it would be about two orthree years into our marriage

(13:48):
that this started.
It wasn't bad.
We could go to friends, we'dhave parties, we'd yeah, you had
a lot of fun.
But it's when he wasn't cominghome and all that set in.
I didn't know.
I didn't know what to do withit.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
really, I didn't just didn't know what to do john,
what was going through your headduring those times?
When you look back and youreflect on that?

Speaker 4 (14:10):
Well, it's interesting, I turned 80 on
November 10th and my defensepartner from back in minor
hockey I thought his birthdaywas December the 6th, so I don't
know why that was burned in mymind, but I called him, I got a
hold of him and we reminiscedabout the days we were playing

(14:35):
minor hockey.
Now, when I was 15, my nicknamewas Alky and I was talking to a
guy, we were at a, a banquetfor people who are still playing
hockey at our age and, uh, Isat beside a fellow and I I was
telling him this oh yeah, hesays I remember that and that's

(14:56):
a long time ago, that's 60, 65years ago.
But it points out the fact thatat 15 my nickname was alky.
That should have been a clue.
Now other people called me that.
They got in trouble because mybuddies wouldn't put up with it,
but they could call me that andit was okay.
Sure, so you know.

(15:17):
But when I was young and theyplayed hockey all junior hockey
when you're, your body can takethe pounding, the abuse.
Yeah, we spent I was talking toRob there we spent three days a
week in the summer when we allhad little jobs, trying to
figure out where we were goingto get our next person, who was

(15:40):
at 21, to get beer for us, getbooze, and that was kind of a
full part-time job on ourpart-time job in the summertime.
So that's how we started outand I had at our wedding.
By the way, I want to show youthis you ever see two happier
people than that.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
I mean, look at you guys, I love it.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
Now can you see what's above Diana's head there?

Speaker 2 (16:07):
The cross.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yes, and notice that it's above her head.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, well, yeah, because you're heathen.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Not mine.
She was the angel, she was thebeliever, for sure.
And that's if I wanted to sumit up, she's the reason, aside
from God, that kept us together,because she had the faith and I
didn't.
And I'll talk more about thatas we go along.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
It's interesting because, as you were talking
just a few minutes ago about youknow nicknames and things of
that nature, like your, yourcore group of friends would call
you alky, but you know anybodyoutside of that core group.
They were like nope, you're not.
No one's getting that that.
That nickname's us, that's anus thing, not a you outside the
art, the trusted circle.
And, by the way, let's remind,for those who may be listening,

(17:00):
of a younger age.
We understand that in thestates of what, in the state of
uh in the united states, you gotto be 21, so we're not
condoning it, we're notcondoning any underage drinking.
He's just sharing his story inregards to things that had gone
on back in those days and and Ithink that still plays true to
to most younger generations,trying to be that macho,

(17:24):
egotistical I mean, still betrying to be tough, trying to
navigate that teenageawkwardness of trying to learn
who you are as you continue togrow and evolve.
And if I could tell youngerMario to this day, not that I
was a big drinker not that I didany of that kind of stuff Just

(17:47):
to be myself and continue justto like.
It's weird, because mostyounger kids are like you know,
they feel awkward and they'relike ah, it's weird, I don't
want to say anything.
But it's almost weird becauseyou don't say something.
But to remind youngerindividuals, people just say hi
to people, you strike up aconversation, continue to be.

(18:09):
You, just say something whenyou're out there.
Because I think most I think aswe navigate as teenagers,
looking back, um, I think that'swhen the alcohol kind of helps
loosen that that inhibition oflike, oh, I feel awkward, now I
feel a little loose.
Um, no, but I you sharing yourstory of that piece of you being

(18:33):
a younger, young, younger youngman, of drinking, playing
hockey, uh, then getting marriedand not knowing it maybe you
not knowing it was a situationand then you know, diana, you
kind of like.
You're like wait, what's reallygoing on?
What are we masking here?

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Well, it's interesting you say that because
on our wedding day he turns tome.
We're having all everybody'stoasting, et cetera, and he said
, okay, dear, I promise I'mgoing to quit drinking.
And I thought to myself why ishe saying that to me, right?
Is he saying that to me?
Because I'm not saying I wasoblivious of kids drinking and

(19:15):
that he'd had a little history,but I didn't know his moniker
there the alky thing.
I didn't know anything aboutthat and I didn't get out much
because my parents were very,very.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Smart.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, they sure kept me.
I don't want to use the wordcloistered, but Cloistered is a
good word.
But, I didn't know, I didn'tknow.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
You had a good family upbringing how?

Speaker 3 (19:43):
can you not know?
But I didn't.
I really, because it was allpart of the culture that I was
raised in and it didn't, youknow, it just didn't seem to
matter at that time.
So when he told me this, Iremember being very shocked and
I thought, okay, well, I'll justremember he said that, but I
don't know why he's saying thatto me and nothing's going to be

(20:04):
illusion, right?
Remember we talked about theillusion Everything's going to
be okay.
We're just going to make nomistakes, like all those other
people that got married did.
We're not going to do that.
We're just going to beourselves, and you know well, of
course, the illusion.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
It seems like even you know, coming from out of a
marriage which was a long timeago and and being very cordial
to my ex-wife, and, uh, you knowour daughter's success, her
success is our daughter'ssuccess and vice, and and I
thought, how awesome is it thatyou two are out here to share

(20:54):
your journey about what the good, bad and the ugly have been for
you to, to give others anopportunity to say that they may
be close to throwing in thetowel, as most people would say,
because there is real no.
People say, oh, you know,there's a lot of guys, tough

(21:14):
guys, who say, oh, I'm not goingto counseling, I'm not doing
that, or you know, you know,maybe they don't have a faith
and and they're kind of and andthat's okay too.
Whatever you know, whateverfloats your boat in how you
navigate life, but there's gotto be there's real no manual on
how marriage, marriages all workand and yeah, and so as you can

(21:36):
.
You guys continue to share yourstory and your journey and, and
you saying, well, I didn't knowthat this was a situation, or
you saying, well, I didn'treally understand that there was
really a problem, until he mayhave sparked, that, ignited that
little thing in the back ofyour head, you're like, okay.
Well, why Now, john, did youfeel like at that point in your

(22:01):
life you're like, okay, I needto stop?
At that point in your lifeyou're like, okay, I need to
stop.
Or was it just like you knewthat this was going to be a part
of the continued evolution ofthis new marriage and this new
thing?

Speaker 4 (22:12):
Well, my enjoyment came from playing golf, playing
hockey, gambling, being with theboys, and when I first started
out it was beer mainly.
And then I moved, got a betterjob and I ran into people who

(22:35):
were I was 24, they were 45.
So they're families that hadalready grown up.
And this guy opens up his trunkand it wasn't a case of beer,
it was a case of liquor.
And he had to keep it trunkbecause his family would gobble
it up on him.
So he got the trunk of his car.
But I thought, boy, I've beendropped right into the promised

(22:57):
land, just like I did the firsttime when I went to play hockey.
I I got in a guy's car and heopened the trunk and there was a
case of beer and the guy in thefront seat had a cast on his
hand.
He was a fighter, so I hadprotection.
And the other guy he knew allthe girls in town that did and
didn't and I was just droppedinto this paradise and that was

(23:21):
the beginning of a real go withit.
Sure, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
How long were you guys married before you started
having kids?

Speaker 4 (23:33):
We were married 22, yeah, about two or three years.
Okay, candy was born and ofcourse that cramped my style,
because now how am I going to doall the things I like doing and
become accustomed to doing?
Diana wouldn't be able to workbecause she's going to have this

(23:54):
baby.
So Diana presented me I thinkit was Valentine's Day with the
good news and immediately Ithought oh man, how am I going
to change my whole MO here toget what I wanted?
It's that little thing ofselfishness.
Selfishness is just a killerfor a marriage, and it was a

(24:18):
killer for ours.
So that began what we call theSeven Years' War.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
So that began what we call the seven years war and
describe that for someone who,maybe someone who hasn't been
married for that long and may beclose to that.
What is that?
Describe that for what you guyswent through?

Speaker 3 (24:41):
I guess for me.
I became really, reallydepressed.
And the doctor didn't believeme that John had a drinking
problem.
The lawyer didn't believe me Ihad a drinking problem.
He did.
And friends, of course theydidn't.
Of course it was just all myfault or I wasn't thinking right
.
So I had no support at all.

(25:03):
And I told you I wasn't thetype to go home to mama and dada
because my dad and mother bothjust loved this fellow.
So I wasn't about to expose himand I guess I'd have to say for
me, I fell into this hugedepression and I had to decide
if I wanted to live or not.
And the reason for that isbecause I didn't know what to do

(25:26):
.
Sure, I had my spiritual lifeand I believed.
I thought, well, I've been agood mom, I've been a good um
daughter, I've been a good wife,I've been a good friend of all,
mrs goody goody, you know, butI've been all those things.
And why would god not take meout of this or move me forward
or something?
I didn't realize it.

(25:48):
In his own way, he was workingbehind the scenes and what
happened is my sister happenedto phone me and said Diana, I
think I know what's wrong withmembers of our family.
I won't mention it Members ofour family and I said, yes, do
you have an idea?
And she said, yes, I thinkalcohol is the big factor.

(26:09):
And I said but what do we do?
What do we do about it?
I don't want to be a naggingwife, I want to be the perfect
wife, right, sure?
Anyway, she introduced me to a12-step program for the families
of alcoholics and I drove fromChesse to sudbury I don't know
how far that is about 300 milesto go to a meeting.

(26:30):
That's how desperate I was,because I wanted to save what we
had.
I wanted to save what we, we,started off with.
I wanted it to come back and itwasn't coming back.
And uh, anyway, for I went andthat lady that gave the talk
that night told my story.
So I felt, oh boy, you know I'm, it's going to be okay.

(26:53):
I don't know of any programsaround, but I'll find one.
But then, not everybody wantsto go to that effort.
They're tired, they're sick andtired of it all and they, they,
just as you said, they throw inthe towel.
And why didn't I?
Well, sometimes I don't know.
I don't know your answer, whydidn't I?
But I just really love myhusband and I just want things

(27:15):
to go.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
If I was a good listener I would say that your
faith, I think the reason why itdidn't end is you know that
there was a higher power workingin your guys, you know, in your
guys's favor, or working behindthe scenes to continue to
evolve.
Uh, what, what, what has been avery, uh, a very interesting

(27:38):
road for you guys of 57 years,as you said earlier and when we
talk about these types of youknow your selfishness, john, you
having how many kids did youhave?
Do you have just the one?

Speaker 4 (27:57):
No, we have three, but that time we just had one.
We'll get to that later in theconversation, I'm sure.
But Diana had see, I was alwaysmanipulating, and it's
alcoholics do.
And she had a lawyer friendcome and visit us and he

(28:19):
suggested we, because I wasn'tgiving her any money, I was just
a mess Because I had to lookafter my addiction and my
gambling and my, my, my, my, my.
So he suggested that we go tobecause Diana was finished and
that's why she had the lawyerthere to get the separation

(28:39):
going.
So he suggested marriageencounter or marriage counseling
and I thought, well, gee, well,I better do it.
I said I'll even get thecounselor myself, you know
anything to keep this thingafloat.
Because I didn't want toseparate, because I didn't think
I could afford it and I wasafraid, ashamed of my boss, who

(29:00):
I had a lot of respect for,would think not, wouldn't think
very highly of me if I pulledthat one off.
So I didn't get the marriagecounselor, but Diane, of course.
Good old Diana.
She got the marriage andcounselor and off we go was over
100 miles one way.
I grumbled all the way andthere was a doctor and his wife.

(29:24):
They were both doctors.
So Diana talked to the ladydoctor and I talked to the man
and I just laid it out.
Diana's always on my case, Ican't do anything, and she's
blah, blah, blah.
She was nagging.
So anyway, I laid it all outthere.
It's the first time I'd reallytold anybody anything.
So when we came back togetherthey said well, mr and Mrs

(29:47):
Norton, and they had conferred,we think you'd be best to
separate.
Well, I got my back up and Isaid listen, I didn't drive 200
miles to here, I should separate.
I can do that myself at home, Idon't need to come down here to

(30:07):
have you tell me that.
So I came here for some help,so let's get some help.
So that kind of was thebeginning.
You see, there's a scripturethat says while we were yet
sinners, Christ died for us.
And you mentioned there'sthings going on behind the
scenes and there was a higherpower.
Well, the higher power isworking through her and the

(30:29):
other power is working throughme.
There was that conflict, hencethe seven-year war.
But we did learn some techniqueswhich we help marriages with
people with troubles.
We take them through thesesteps.
But one was communication andthey gave us a big stop sign, a

(30:52):
neat stop sign and that was thestart.
Put that on your fridge andevery time you decide to get
going, you, you, you, you, youstop and use the what they call
a no blame method, where I feelupset.
When you do, instead of blamingthe person, you say what's

(31:13):
happening with you, but you'regetting the message across.
So we got in the car and I saidI feel upset that they told us
to separate and we had a laughabout that.
Sure, I used the I feel method.
You see, I feel upset when theytold us to separate and we

(31:34):
laughed.
That was the first time we'dlaughed together in a long, long
time.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
And we went home and made a stop sign.
We were looking for it theother day because we carried it
everywhere we've moved and we'vemoved a lot of places.
But that's really.
People are surprised when youtell them it's that simple.
You just have to stop if youwant to Like, you get a choice.
You get a choice for everythingyou're doing out there or not
doing.

(31:58):
But John made a choice at thattime and I did too, and then we
went along for a while as theroad goes up and down, up and
down.
Illusion, disillusion.
It's, uh, not working the way Ithink it should not.
And I talked to some friends atmy church and this beautiful

(32:22):
couple had gone to a programcalled marriage encounter.
And I said what is marriageencounters?
When the couples come togetherand they spend time talking, but
you don't tell anybody elsewhat you're saying, you just
there's a presenter and thatsort of thing, sure, anyway, I
said.
I said, gee, that sounds.
Of course I was always tryingto find something right, to make

(32:42):
it better, and I thought, oh,I'll tell John about this, he'll
be really excited.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
I was playing cards with her cousin and the subject
came up because they had been toone and I thought oh gee, here
we go.
So I shut up and deal, you know, just get on with the game.
And then, because of ourcommunication buildup, we used
to sit out in the back in Mayand talk, talk, talk, very

(33:12):
superficial things, none of thedeep, deep stuff.
And our anniversary was comingup on August the 26th and Diana
says, as women do I wouldn'twant to say they manipulate, but
you know this little that goeson.
She says all I want for ouranniversary is to go on this

(33:32):
marriage encounter weekend.
Well, I ran that through thecomputer here and it was only
$10 to register and it wasn'tuntil November.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Right.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
So I thought $10, that takes care of the
anniversary present.
And it's not until November.
That's a long way away.
Sure, I'm sure there will be ablizzard or something in
November.
I won't have to worry aboutgoing anyway.
So I'll just put that on theback burner.
It was always manipulation,selfishness, me, me, me, yeah.

(34:06):
But November came early thatyear.
So I got oh gee, so we get inthe car, we're going to Hamlin's
two or three hours drive.
And I started tonguing her allthe way.
I don't want to go to this, butthis better be good.
And you wrote me into this.

(34:29):
And finally we stopped about anhour away and had supper and
Diana said John reminds me ofthat commercial, john, it
reminds me of that commercial,john.
If you're going to keep on likethis, you know we can turn
around and go back home.
Forget about it.

(34:49):
So I ran that through thecomputer.
Well, oh geez, if I don't go,I'm going to pay for this.
So, okay, on we go.
And we get there and it was bigstone walls, you know, yeah,
and a gate, an iron gate, and Ithought, oh jesus, if they ever
get me in there I'll, I'll neverget out.

(35:09):
Here was a guy parked his carright next to the exit, I said,
no, there's somebody that'sreally thinking right, he's, he
can's going to break loose.
And so I had to go through andimmediately started looking
around the place for a TV to seeif the hockey game would be on
that night and tomorrow's theNFL.

(35:31):
I got to watch the footballgames, but I couldn't find a TV
anywhere, so I decided to.
I'd have to put up with this.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
When you talk about these marriage encounters, I
know that there are churchesaround the states, even one that
I've attended, where they do amarriage encounter, they do a
men's encounter.
So for those who may beinterested in looking for some
type of help in that in thoseregards, uh, just look up, look

(36:04):
for your local church and uh,they, some of them, will have
these types of places.
Uh, a church that I frequentlyhave gone to, uh in in pualap,
has a lot of this, um, thesetypes of things called, uh, it's
motion church.
For those who are interested inlike a marriage encounter, like
you guys have, and not thatJohn wanted to go, but now, was

(36:24):
this through a church?
Was your?
Guys through a church.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:29):
Yeah, the Catholic church.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
And very forward thinking for the Catholics,
cause you know, a lot of modernChristian church like, like
emotion, are doing these typesof things now and they're like
yearly, and sometimes I thinksome churches may do them twice
a year.
But I know that, um, forfellowship reasons, I know that

(36:53):
they'll do like a men'sencounter, a woman's encounter a
marriage encounter and thenI've, you know, I've done like
couples retreats and things ofthat nature.
It's just to me listening toyour guys' story as you, you
know, I mean, as we know thatDiane is probably my favorite
person, but, john, I think I'velearned so much from you about

(37:16):
like just listening to yourhumility of of saying, look, I
was selfish, as you share yourstory with us.
Um, it's humbling to listen toa man, another man out here,
share his, his imperfections inlife because, let's face it,

(37:38):
society, regardless on where weare, in general guys have
typically tough guy.
Uh, men, don't cry.
You know, I'll be the first totell you.
I have.
You know.
My daughter asked me the otherday, yesterday she's like dad
when was the last time you cried?
and I told her it was like uh,it was last sat Saturday.

(37:59):
I was listening to some musicand made me think of my aunt,
who recently just passed away ata very young age, and I told
her I was like, she's like, andshe hugged me and she was like,
wow, that's so sad that you wereby yourself and you were crying
.
I was like, I was grieving, youknow, for our family member.
Um, john, when did you realizein your encounter, were you like

(38:21):
, did you, did you enjoy any ofthat?
Or did you learn anything fromthat experience when you were
going through that encounter,that couple's uh encounter?

Speaker 4 (38:33):
sorry, now we're getting to the good part good.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
This is all good, by the way, I think.
Think, I mean, it's justinteresting to listen.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
Well, through the weekend, very seldom did we have
to share anything with the restof the group.
It was all between us, right?
But the first night we'd liketo, as a point of introduction,
just tell who you are and saysomething nice about your spouse

(39:06):
.
So guess who gets to go first?
Yours truly Nice Well.
So I said Diane, she's just awonderful person, a great wife,
loving.
She likes others.
She does this and you can tellwhere you were at there.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Well, I wondered who he was talking about, quite
frankly, really, because he hadnever expressed these words for
a long, long time.
So I was not expecting all thispositivity that he came up with
and he just nobody else wouldever do in his whole life, if
you know.
And I thought, oh shoot, whatam I going to say?

(39:48):
Because I don't feel that way.
After just having had that stopsure at the restaurant and
listen to him chew away, Ithought I don't know what say.
So I really don't remember athing I said.
He'll have to remember what Isaid.
Just, you know, he was ateacher and he was clever.
I mean, all the things that Ido appreciate in him is all I

(40:10):
could say.
But as far as him, the personto be with me, the person, I
couldn't.
I'm not a hypocrite, I justcan't and I just couldn't put it
out there.
I know some people can, but Ican't.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
I won't say anything bad, sure, anything bad, but I
just couldn't say, oh, he's justsuch a loving person for all I
know it's interesting when yousay that, because I think that
in most relationships, when wetalk about relationships being
in one maybe you're not in oneright now Keeping your circle
tight in regards to the, thethings that may you know, the,

(40:50):
the imperfections of a person,or like someone saying, oh my
gosh, mario, you snore at night.
Or I don't like going, going tosomebody like a friend, a best
friend, and then confiding inthem in regards to you know,
john or Mario's imperfections,does I find those to be not

(41:11):
great qualities, because thenthe best friend of you know, of
our significant other, willstart to have a little bit of a
chip on the shoulder becausethey have been, have been,
debriefed some, you know, maybenot some great things about us,
and then it continues to, itspirals out.

(41:32):
I mean in that all relation,and maybe this is another thing
that I'm learning about you twoas a couple that maybe you know,
diana, you were protecting therelationship this entire time,
to protect, you know, frompeople thinking that you're with
a bad person, which John is not.

(41:53):
Yeah, john, you're not a badperson.
You just had some bad traitsthat needed to be worked through
.

Speaker 4 (42:02):
Well, as I said, this is the best part, because, as
the weekend progressed, dianeand I had to write our, we were
given questions and listened topresentations and I thought, boy
, those people are reallysomething.
They're admitting this andthey're admitting that, as a
matter of fact, the first ladyadmitted being an alcoholic.

(42:23):
I thought, oh gee, right, infront of all these people.
So, anyway, this went on.
We kept going back and forth,back and forth, various topics,
and finally it's called the bigone was an hour and a half and
we had a list of questions to gothrough, and so Diana was in
the main lounge and I was in ourcabin and I was to read and

(42:49):
answer these questions and shewas doing the same there.
Anyway, I was reading, startedreading these questions and
questions like who's keepingyour, your family apart?
Who's keeping your family fromgod?
Who's not looking after theresponsibilities, and I'm
reading this stuff and I've beensoftened up because it was a

(43:11):
spiritual experience weekend and, uh, I had heard the parable,
the sower was a big one for me,and anyway, I was reading these
things and finally I realizedthat it was me that was the
problem and it was the fact Iwasn't following God's plan for

(43:34):
marriage, which was unity, and Ijust had an overwhelming sense
of guilt and shame.
So I got down on my knees atthe side of the bed and I used
to make a joke in the hockeydressing room Guys, well, he's
at church.

(43:55):
I don't go to church, church, Ijust get a loaf of bread and a
bottle of wine and watch rexhumbard on tv.
Laugh, laugh, laugh.
Right, but you know, I did thatand I remember listening to
them, so I knew what to say andI knew what they wanted.
And I got on my knees and Isaid I'm sorry for keeping you

(44:18):
out of my life for so long.
I'm sorry, forgive me and comeinto my life and do with me
whatever you want.
Well, I actually felt thegarbage leave me.
I felt the swearing leave me.

(44:39):
I felt the lying leave me.
I felt the swearing leave me.
I felt the lying leave me.
I was a liar, as you can gatherfrom what I've been saying, a
gambler.
I felt all that stuff leave me.
And it was like I had the StPaul experience.
For those who don't know, hewas on the road to Damascus to

(45:00):
kill Christians and Christappeared to him, knocked him off
his horse.
Now I wasn't on a horse, but Ihad that overwhelming sense of
release and I got up and Ilooked out the window and I
could actually see inside trees.
I could like the cells.
Even the rocks looked like theywere alive.

(45:22):
And a squirrel came down in thetree and it was in the middle
of November and I thought thisis unusual.
But everything was just.
You never remember thoseviewfinders you used to look
through.
Yeah, yeah.
And it was three-dimensional, itwas just like it was alive.
Well, that's how everythinglooked out that window and I got

(45:45):
to tell somebody about this.
I don't know what it is, butsomething's going on here, and
the answer I got in my mind wassit down and finish answering
the questions.
So I did, and it wasn't.
When the time was up, diana wasto come and meet me and we
would exchange our books andread what we have written.

(46:08):
So Diana comes to the door andyou can take it from there.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
I didn't know what was going on with him and what
he was writing, but I wasagreeing with him who's keeping
the family from God and who'sthis, and that it's not really a
blame game.
But if that's who it is, youcan't pretend it isn't.
And so I would answer, but I'dsay, but maybe things will be

(46:37):
better.
I'd always conclude my answerwith maybe things will get
better.
I'd always conclude my answerwith maybe things will get
better.
Maybe, god, you know what's instore, maybe you'll make it
better.
So when I walked into the room,I remember saying to John there
was like a huge aura around him.
For people who don't know whatan aura is, it's kind of a

(46:57):
bursting of sunlight that comesall over him from head to toe.
And I'm looking at him.
I think what happened here?
What happened here?
And I walked into the room alittle bit further and I was
quite astonished as to what Isaid.
Well, tell me what's going on,because I again, I was, I wasn't
confused, I was just takenaback by what I saw in him.

(47:22):
Yeah, and so when he said, well, here's my papers, and he
handed them to me and I began toread them, well, of course I
began to weep, and I'm not acrybaby.
Some people can cry at the dropof a hat, I don't.
In my profession I learned youcan't, so I I think since I was
little I learned I cannot cry.
But I really was brought totears when I saw that and I went

(47:45):
oh my goodness, there's hopefor us after all.
There's hope for us after all.
I couldn't, yeah.
So then John explained a littlebit further and we left, you
know, kind of singing and happy,and I know it doesn't happen to
other couples that take theseweekends, I know that.

(48:06):
But you're still changedbecause you had a chance to look
inside yourself and look insideyour spouse with a different
set of eyes.
And I was so hoping for thischange.
But coming to the end of mylittle line, it wasn't going to
change.

(48:26):
But you know he wanted to go tochurch, he wanted to take our
daughter to church.
She was about 10 or 11 at thatpoint and I had always hid his
drinking episodes and everythingfrom her.
So she may have noticed italong the way, but I just never
let on.
I wasn't into that.
I know people do that one tothe other spouse, but I can tell

(48:49):
you right now don't do it,because it's not the children's
fault that we can't get along.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
It is 100%, and I believe this to be for those who
may be divorced.
It is something that is notgreat for the kids.
It just doesn't boast well foryour kids.
I mean, speaking of someone whohas spent more time divorced
than I was married, I will saythis Put your kids first.

(49:20):
Put your kids first, always putyour kids first, and it will
pay dividends.
Period.
End of discussion.
You may not love or be friendswith your ex-spouse or whoever
that might be.
Maybe it's a relationship thatdid not work out, but look at
the end of the day, there was apoint in time when you two came

(49:41):
together to be, to be lovers andto have these children.
Um, and that's the the commonground that you both have.
You both love your children,and I know that to be the case,
uh, and and so, as I, I canshare from my own personal
experiences love your kids, itwill pay dividends.
And, and here we are, at 16years old, I love her dearly.

(50:06):
I mean she, you know she, she,she definitely is.
She keeps me, she keeps me inline.
I was like man, this girl runsthe house more than I run the
house.
But it is so true, I mean you.
You don't.
You don't want to talk badabout the parent because they
unconditionally love us, right?
And that is a great thing, thatyou were able to foresee that

(50:31):
and to be able to project it andto share that now, with your
experience over the years and Ican attest as a younger you know
someone younger to say that,yeah, I've been divorced for
such a long time but I wouldnever talk bad about my ex-wife.
It's not good for the kids.
No, they love us.

(50:54):
Your kids love both theirparents unconditionally.
I'm glad you said that andbrought that up.
Thank you yeah we can divorcethe spouse, but we can't divorce
the children.
That is so true.
And so you leave the couple'sretreat, the couple's encounter,

(51:17):
and mind you, you guys guys arejust.
You guys are on like cloudseven.
Right, you guys are on a cloudnine.
You guys are, you know, excitedabout the journey in life.
How do you guys continuethrough?
And and where do things jumpback?
We're okay, so it's surf.
Let's let's just call thissurface level like like, fix it,

(51:38):
john and Diana.
Like okay, so you went to themarriage counseling and maybe in
your mind you're like okay, wegot this, we got this now, but
did?

Speaker 4 (51:49):
you really.
Oh well, yeah, we were off intoillusion again.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Illusion yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Yeah, back to the basic law of life.
So everything is going to be.
I just loved everybody.
I had to see, we believe asChristians that we're
three-dimensional beings.
We're physical, we have a souland we have a spirit.
Right, and when you do that,make that move people you know,

(52:16):
you've seen them on TV just sayJesus, come into my heart.
Well, that is true, that's whatI learned from Rex Hembard and
that's what I did and that'swhat happened.
And so I had this I had.
Now I had there's a throneinside, we call it the heart,
and John had been on the thronefor years.

(52:38):
Well, when I made thatcommitment, jesus been on the
throne for years.
Well, when I made thatcommitment, jesus was on the
throne.
And as long as he's on thethrone and I'm listening to him,
and now it's second nature, butanyway, I just loved everybody.
Oh, it's just, it was just sucha thing.
And I had to tell everybody.
And I was blabbing all over theplace and oh, oh, I've got to

(52:59):
write a book about this, I'vegot to write a book about this
and tell everybody.
And I was going to call it oh,my God.
And so I'm telling Diana andshe said, well, you can't really
tell that story without mebeing involved, right?
So that evolved into and thetwo shall become as one, because
that's what happened.
And off we went, wrote the book, got a one to talk, we were

(53:24):
talking this and that and theother.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
We became a couple for Marriage Encounter.

Speaker 4 (53:29):
Yeah, we became a couple with Marriage Encounter
and spent three or four yearsdoing that, and so as long as
Jesus was on the throne, thatwas working fine.
But I still hadn't dealt withthe alcohol thing yet Until one

(53:50):
morning.
Well, I'd been up all nightdrinking and gone to bed about 7
in the morning and kept Dianaup until 4, dancing to country
and western music, which Ididn't even like, until when I
woke up I was out on the floorlistening to Freddy Fender.

(54:11):
Anyway, I went to bed at 9o'clock about there I just sat
up, bolt right up in bed.
I didn't hear an audible voicebut, as I said, the spirit is in
us and he talks to us.
We're supposed to listen, likethose dressage horses.

(54:33):
You never see any action, butthere's slight movements of the
knees and a little twitch of thereins and the horse responds.
That's how we're supposed toact as Christians if Jesus is on
the throne.
Anyway, I heard this voice,john, I didn't hear a voice.
A thought in my mind how do youexpect we're in the middle of

(54:54):
writing a book at that?
How am I expecting to do thethings, things you want to do,
and you've got this problem.
You're an alcoholic and oh uh,and he, satan's going to use
that against you.
So I woke diana up diana, guesswhat, I'm an alcoholic.
And she looked at me you knowthat look is about time and I

(55:18):
said who's that guy in aa thatyou used to hang around with his
wife?
So she gave me his name.
I called him up, said guesswhat, I'm an alcoholic.
When's your next meeting?
He said well, tomorrow morning.
I said I'll be there.
He said you want me to pick up?
No, no, no, I'll be there.
I called my sister, maryland,in toronto, who had trouble with
alcohol.
I said guess what, maryland,I'm an alcoholic and that's your

(55:40):
problem too.
I'm going to a meeting tomorrowmorning.
Why don't you come up and we'llgo?
I will.
She said oh.
So then I called mybrother-in-law.
I said guess what, I'm analcoholic and that's your
problem too.
He wasn't near as happy abouthis journey.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Most people who are alcoholics don't want to be told
that they are alcoholics.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
Oh, I went through that.
How many years.
So, anyway, I went and they putyou right at the corner so you
can hear how you do this thing.
You see what you're talking andI'm sitting there just bouncing
in my chair.
I can't wait to tell them thatI met Jesus a couple years ago

(56:28):
and this morning I got the wordand here I am and I'm just going
on.
And then they looked at me.
Where did that guy come from?
Yeah, so that was back into theillusion or the uh, yeah, the
illusion.
And uh, five years sober.
And I say sober.

(56:48):
No, I was dry.
Yeah, I had a dry, what'scalled a dry drunk, and I
started putting john back in.
I was watching my who was abouttwo and a half at the time and
he was a little hellion and I'mlooking at him and he was
throwing temper tantrums,slamming doors, and I looked

(57:11):
that's what I'm doing, I'macting like that.
So I knew something was wrong.
And, long story short, I wentinto a 28-day program for
alcoholics and I heard a wholelot of stuff that I needed to
hear.
One was if you started drinkingat 13, you're probably eight.

(57:31):
You regress, your emotionaldevelopment stops right there
and and not only that, but itregresses, and that's what was
happening to me.
So I'm off again.
Another illusion.
Now I got another message.
I got this all figured out now,and three years later we

(57:53):
separated.
So here we have written a bookon how to guaranteed way it says
right here, guaranteed to solveyour marriage problems.
And we're separated Well backinto the disillusion.
And this was.

(58:13):
I had a.
I'd stop at a gas station.
Somebody come up and say, knewwho I was?
Oh, you wrote that book.
And I said, yeah, a gas station.
Somebody would come up and say,knew who I was?
Oh, you wrote that book.
And I said, yeah, I did.
And can I have one?
Well, I just happen to havesome in the trunk, so I'd write
in their book.
Don't let my presentcircumstances belie the truth

(58:35):
that lies in this book.
And it was through the bookthat we had to get back.
and because the truth was thereyeah I had put picked jesus off
the throne and I sat back down.
It's like that joke about yeahthe, the cats you know, before

(58:56):
god, and and I don't need to gointo all that but the cat says
to God you're sitting on mychair and this is what happened.
I went back to being theselfish John and I didn't like
it.
So we were separated for fiveyears Wow, and neither one of us

(59:19):
had anybody else, didn't wantanybody else, yeah, but Diana
couldn't.
And she had a dream that'sanother book we've written about
miracles and dreams and she hadthis dream that she didn't have
to live this way.
And we decided to part, whichwe did for five years, and when

(59:45):
you guys were apart for fiveyears.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
How many kids did you have at that point in time?

Speaker 3 (59:49):
We had three children Right after the marriage
encounter.
After about a year, I had twokids in a row, two little boys
and our daughter would be 12 orturning 12.
So it was an interesting time.
I was a lot older.
I used to say I had two kids ina carriage and it was another

(01:00:09):
responsibility.
It was hard for John to beresponsible to children.
He was a teacher.
He did great things in hisclassroom.
It was hard for him to apply itat home and I understood that
and I used that slogan often.
I let John be John, just let mebe me.
Yeah, and then we're okay.
If I don't let him be him, thenI'm trying to change him, right

(01:00:33):
, right, and you can't changeanybody but yourself, yeah, and
so for me, I guess I had tolearn to be.
This is the way I am, this iswhat I do, I'm an extrovert, I
love doing this, I love doingthat, and somewhere along the
way he had to accept thathappening.

(01:00:53):
Now, when I actually got veryill and I thought I was going to
die, so the short version, anda friend introduced me to the
homeopath, I guess, and sheworked with me.
For she started working with mein about March, and that's when
I thought I was not going tomake it.

(01:01:14):
And in May, again I had thisdream.
I was sitting on my rockingchair, I had the two boys that
were upstairs sleeping mydaughter was and I said, lord, I
don't know what to do.
I don't.
Well, I won't need a house if Idon't live so he can have all
this.
It doesn't mean anything to me.

(01:01:35):
What I wanted was therelationship that we had once
and it's gone Again, it's leftand um.
And then what I felt I heard inmy spirit was called john, and
I thought it's 10 o'clock atnight.
What I'm gonna call john, yes,I said, okay, what will I say?
And it was.

(01:01:56):
I will teach you and tell youwhat to say.
So so I phoned him it's 10o'clock at night, and he said
hello, who is this?
This is not Diana.
And I said, yes, it is John.
I've decided you can come backhome and I've got 20 things
written on a piece of paper thatyou need to follow and you have

(01:02:16):
to give me your answer byFriday.
And he said Dianaiana, is thisreally you?
Is this a joke?
I went, no, no, but I didn'ttell him I was ill, I didn't
want to, I didn't want that tobe part of his reason and so, um
, and I guess I could tell thatpart too.
He shows up thursday, whichwould john right, I gotta be the
boss, I gotta do it my way.

(01:02:38):
He showed up Thursday evening.
The kids were all in bed and mycat.
I had a beautiful cat.
Her name was Secret and she hadnothing to do with John the
whole five years we got her whenshe was itty-bitty and he came
in the house and was at the door, just like when he dropped the
kids off from time to time.
She never went near him.

(01:02:59):
This night she ran right overto him and went over on her back
.
A sign of submission for cats,right, right.
And he picked her up and shepurred and purred and purred.
I thought, oh you, they callher.
Anyway, she was a traitor.
Yeah, she was a traitor.

(01:03:19):
Anyway, was a traitor.
Anyway, john said well, um, I'lltell you what I don't think I
can do.
All this I really don't.
But most of it was about takethe kids to church, you know, to
hockey.
Help do the grass, help helparound the house, do the dishes,
you know.
That sort of thing.
Uh, be with the children.
It wasn't anything.

(01:03:40):
I didn't ask for anything and Idon't have my halo on, no, no,
I just didn't.
I wanted it for our life and Iwasn't going to be here, right
the way the prognosis was Iwasn't going to be there.
So what happened was he huggedher and hugged her, and cat
wouldn't let him go.
I just thought.
And then I thought well, that'swhat you wanted, you wanted

(01:04:03):
this.
So the next day, uh, we decidedjohn would come home the first
of july it was somewhere in june, but just before my birthday
and we went to the restaurantfor my birthday.
The two children and mydaughter was away in college by
then university and I said we'resitting at the table and John

(01:04:25):
said well, we have some news foryou boys, and the youngest one,
jolie, says oh, you guys aregetting back together.
Oh, that's great, mom and Dad,like we never said a word Sure,
but he was very intuitive, veryintuitive and most kids.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Most kids are they, they are very yeah they, they
know what's going on, they theyvastly know what's going on yeah
.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
So he came back home and, uh, I kept taking my
supplements or whatever she it'sa chinese yeah program and I
just took it faithfully and Istarted to get better and all
the symptoms that I had like allthe physical symptoms you can
think of shut down.
I started to get better.

(01:05:09):
So it was Christmas time andJohn said well, you look like
you're better.
And I hadn't told him up tothat point that I had been sick
Again.
I didn't want that to be areason for him to come home.
And he said I said well, you'rehere, you might as well stay
I'm still protecting myselfbecause I'd been hurt before and

(01:05:34):
we just somehow went on in ourlife again.
We had gone through thedisillusion and now the joy was
back and away.
We went again for anotherperiod of time.

Speaker 4 (01:05:45):
Yeah, it's very cyclical.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
We live in Muskoka, so we have the four seasons, and
so you have the nice illusionof spring and summer, and then
winter hits.
There's the disillusion, butthe joy comes in the spring,
when everything gets green again.

(01:06:10):
Renews the renewal of life inthe spring, when everything gets
green again and renews therenewal of life.
Yeah, like jesus used the theexample of a, a kernel of wheat.
It it falls to the ground andit goes into the ground and then
it dies and it rots.
But from that that period oftime up comes the new and it's

(01:06:31):
hundredfold, there's more thanone kernel.
This is so basic.
This is why it's called thebasic law of life.
And we went through the threecycles and we had another whack
when our son committed suicideand he hung himself.

(01:06:51):
And our son committed suicideand he hung himself and that was
19,.
Well, that was five, six yearsago.
In August next year, 25.
And you alluded to in yourintroduction that, yeah, if we
hadn't, if we didn't have therelationship and Diana likes to

(01:07:13):
use the expression that Diana,she often says people call her
Diane she said no, diana, likethe princess and Princess Diana
was interviewed on TV and thatblew up the whole network.
When she was asked what theproblem was, she said well,

(01:07:35):
there's three people in thismarriage.
It's a bit crowded, yeah, Iremember that.
And the third person wasCamilla, and we believe there
should be three people in themarriage too.
But the third person is Jesus,the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, that's what saved ourmarriage and that's what keeps

(01:07:55):
us going.
And, of course, I give all thecredit to Diana, because it's
her when I look back in my life.
And why her?
Why did I see her across thecrowd?
Why did she end up in front ofme in a Paul Jones dance?
Why did she get to be MissMuskoka?
And then I had to make my move.

(01:08:15):
So I walked up to her lockerand told her I loved her and
walked away.
I had to make my move and I did, and it just kept going.
But it never.
We're still going, and it wasthat spiritual power that

(01:08:39):
changed when I got on my kneesthat day.
Even though I picked Jesus offthe throne and jumped on myself,
he's still.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
He was always there for you.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
Oh, he says I'll never leave you or forsake you.
Fear not All this garbagethat's going on in the world
today.
I don't give a hoot about that.
I know, uh, I know what's goingon because I read.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
I read the word, and the word spells it all out for
those who, uh, may uh, in yourguys's case, I want to bring
this to to the attention.
If you have thoughts or havehad any uh issues in regards to
negative thoughts of suicide,there is a suicide prevention
hotline.
You can text or call uh 988here in the states.

(01:09:23):
Um, uh, it is tragic because Iknow that even for men's health,
um, men's mental health is abig thing that doesn't get
discussed here in the States andI know that there is now a
men's mental awareness, you know, and for those who may have

(01:09:43):
that macho mentality, look, wewant to bring it to the
forefront to make sure that weshare the information, the
knowledge that is available tothose who may need it.
Maybe you don't, uh, I grew up,uh, in the uh early 90s, uh,

(01:10:04):
80s and 90s and, um, people makefun of me because I don't know,
I don't take over the countermedicine unless I'm like really
bad um, and sometimes people aretoo tough and too proud.
But, um, um, if, if you, if inin your guys's case, if, if, or
anybody who may have a suicidethoughts, there is a prevention
hotline that you were able totext.
It's free, it's 988.
Uh, if you need that, uh, againour guest, uh, john and Diana.

(01:10:28):
Uh, it's that tragic piece inyour guys' life as I said
earlier and you were justmentioning, john, that if you
guys weren't together you don'tthink you would be back together
and your guys' journey throughwhat has been the ups and downs,

(01:10:49):
the ebbs and flows, theillusion, the disillusion, the
stop sign.
Something that I think I willtake away from spending this
time with you guys is just beopen minded, not to quickly
judge to understand others.

(01:11:10):
Judge, uh, to understand others.
Someone who has friends thatare still married, married try
to be and always be a goodlistener.
Always advocate marriage.
I don't, I don't, I am not onewho is going to promote divorce.
I don't want to be someone'shomewrecker in regards, in

(01:11:30):
regards to and when I sayhomewrecker.
I'm more of the like to dissolvea marriage.
I'm I'm going to be someone'shomewrecker in regards to and
when I say homewrecker, I'm moreof the like to dissolve a
marriage.
I'm going to be one to continueto promote the marriage seek
counseling.
This, I would have to say, isprobably one of the most
intriguing interviews I've everdone in the four years that I've
done this radio podcast.
I just it is so neat to listento your guys's story.

(01:11:56):
That's not perfect, but it'sperfect in so many different
ways on how, the love that youcan see.
If you're not watching, you cango to the on air Mariocom to
watch the show or the watch the,the video of this show, to see
the love that you guys have foreach other, the rock that you

(01:12:16):
are, diana, to keep this youngbuck in shape, to keep him the
macho, to protect what is yourguys' special little thing from
that one night.
It shows you can see right herethat YouTube and even listening
to you guys share your storyhow much love, how much courtesy

(01:12:40):
you guys have for each other,the ups and downs, the ugly, the
good, the bad, the ugly Havingthose abilities to share that
with somebody else, to put pento paper in books that you guys
have.
I'd love for you guys to sharethat.
We'll definitely post thoselinks.
I will post those links in thepodcast so that if people are

(01:13:03):
interested in downloading orbuying, purchasing your books
that are available I'm assumingsomewhere right Besides the back
of your vehicle, right, john?

Speaker 4 (01:13:16):
I mean, yeah, yeah, the one we're just uh, this, uh,
this is the original, uh, theoriginal hardcover book that we
wrote many years ago.
Okay, and the two shall becomeas one.
We're just in the process ofhaving it put on Amazon in three
forms paperback, audio andwhat's the one you read, audible

(01:13:41):
.

Speaker 3 (01:13:41):
E-book E-book yeah, I'm not very techy.

Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
We didn't get to the experiences that we've had with
miracles.
But there's this book, mir book, dreams and Everyday Miracles.
A lot of we've had.
Aside from the miracles we'vetalked about today, we've had
others of healings and otherpeople's stories Some of my.

(01:14:08):
We've had miracles.
We believe very much inmiracles and dreams.
Diana is a dreamer.
Every time she says I had adream.
The first thing I ask her isWas it in color?

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
If it's in color, it comes true, oh, yeah, it comes
true.

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
Oh, it's interesting, true and uh, oh, it's uh
interesting.
You're, you have a paranormalaspect to your podcast, I
believe.
Yeah and uh, some people callit paranormal, I call it
supernatural.
Yeah and uh, we have all kindsof evidences of big and little
things that uh, well, this, this, this us being here is, is as a

(01:14:54):
result of a dream, and it'shere we are.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Well, I mean, and to listen to you both, it's just it
, just it warms my heart.
I hope that and I I joke all thetime I'm like I'm never going
to find somebody, but somebody,but it's I, I think.
I think, um, listening to youtwo, both, um, to continue to,
I'm not searching, but you knowI continue to path and whatever

(01:15:22):
that might be, eventually thethings will align correctly um,
someone who has faith and andand and spiritual, uh, for
myself, you know I don't judgeothers and whatever someone else
does on, does in their lane, istheir lane.
I just stick to my lane, drivedown the road of life and try to

(01:15:42):
do good for others if I can.
And I think the one thing thatI've learned today is that
nothing's perfect, thatnothing's perfect, and I think
that in life, having some typeof checks and balances you're
going to learn from, andlistening, stop, listen and

(01:16:10):
remember that.
Something that I think I'velearned here is get into the
dirt, start digging past thatsurface level.
Like John was saying, a lot ofstuff, you think you kind of
mask and fix.
You know the illusion, as youwere saying earlier, of like oh
yeah, okay, we did the.
You know, maybe a couple's outthere listening.
Okay, yeah, we did the couple'sretreat, or you know, yeah, and

(01:16:32):
we did the counseling andeverything's great, but really,
did you really dig down deep?
Did you get into the weeds?
Did you pull out those weeds sothey don't come back?
I'm not saying everything'sperfect, but go ahead, john.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):
No, that's, you've got to get into the weeds and
get into the mud, and we didn'tget into a lot of the mud.
But that was another dream thatcame true and actually rattled
my chains and led to aconfrontation not a

(01:17:07):
confrontation, a resolution ofmy infidelity, and that was
quite a part.
We just started to write thebook and I quit my job and she
got this dream and I knew I hadto come clean and I did.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
Isn't it interesting, Diana, that I think something
that I've learned about peoplewho.
I think something that I'velearned about people who, when
infidelity plays into arelationship, you hear about it
and people are like, oh, I think, in general, when people, oh, I

(01:17:46):
was cheated on and they're likesomething's wrong with me,
Something's wrong with me, let'sremember, ladies and gentlemen
and people who are listening andmaybe watching, it's not you,
it's the other person.
It's like John was still nothealed, fixed and he still
hadn't got through those weedsto figure out you know the eye.

Speaker 3 (01:18:10):
As a woman for me.
To me it's the greatest betrayalfor me.
Now, maybe other people don'tthink that way, but for me it
was the greatest betrayal.
Maybe it's because I had those.
You know, I said to you earlierI was a good wife, a good
mother, a good daughter, and howcould you do this to me?

(01:18:33):
But I've come to learn, um, asI learned to forgive.
That was the big issue.
You have to forgive, are you?
We won't be here, we wouldn'tbe here today if I didn't.
And again, that doesn't make meperfect or my halo really shiny
, but it it does say I got achoice.
I got a choice to move forward.

(01:18:53):
Now, if this keeps happeningtime and time and time again,
okay, now you've got an issue.
And again, I'm not judging,like you said, but it's the
greatest betrayal.
The worst that ever happened tome in my life was when my son

(01:19:17):
took his own life Becausethere's a lot of people out
there fighting to live.
Yeah, and he was just a veryawesome.
Well, all my children areawesome, they all have something
really special about them, butthat, to me, was the worst thing
that could have happened.
And you brought up that if weweren't together.
Well, it would be in August.

(01:19:38):
If I can just permit me, it wasin August when I began seeing
John and I on a train track.
Again, we're there, we're doingthings, but there's something
missing and I don't know what itis.
And I began to pray in Augustof the year before he died, so
it would be 2018.
And I began to pray and say,please, change God, can you

(01:20:02):
change this?
Can you bring it back?
Because we had such a greatlove two, three times in our
life.
Remember the illusion,disillusion, kept happening.
Bring it back, please bring itback.
It's really important.
And it would be in December ofthat same year.
John started doing things thatshowed me he was back.

(01:20:24):
He was back in the picture,doing things like even saying
well, I'm having a cup of tea,would you like one or would you
like something else?
Or how about cheese andcrackers?
And I'm going oh yeah, I'mhaving a cup of tea, would you
like one or would you likesomething else?
Or how about cheese andcrackers?
And I'm going, oh, yeah, okay,or I'll make supper tonight,
what?
Because he doesn't like to cook, so that leaves me.
I'm the cook.
So when the cook goes down,we're in trouble.
But here he's saying all thesethings and I didn't question it.

(01:20:48):
I just kept saying thank youGod, thank you God, thank you
God.
And so when May came around andthe loss of Joel hit us, we were
in perfect union at thatparticular time, and I know a
lot of friends.
They break up or they blame thehusband, blame the wife.
You should have done this, youcould have done that.

(01:21:09):
Well, yes, and a lot of things,but I didn't.
I blamed myself, I said myfault, this boy did this.
It's my fault.
But that's what moms do.
I think I don't know about men,because I'm not a man, but moms
say there's something more Icould have done.
I should have seen it.
And yet I had.
I'd had the dream.

(01:21:31):
I had the dream two nightsbefore, but I thought it was my
mother who was very ill, thatthat's what was happening.
I knew something was going tohappen.
I couldn't see.
I couldn't see just a cloud,and so I thought, oh, it's my
mom.
You know, she's on oxygen,she's not going to make it.
And he came to visit us.

(01:21:51):
I never, ever, thought for aminute.
So, as you can imagine, it wasa terrible, terrible surprise.
But again, I just say, ifthere's any mother out there.
It isn't your fault.
Just as you said, mario, peoplemake these choices and he made
a choice that certainly wasn'tour choice and we can't bring

(01:22:17):
him back.
But I know from my ownexperience, just as a mom you as
a mom you have to take time togrieve.
Just as I grieved the loss ofmy marriage when John and I
broke up, I I grieve the loss ofthis little boy and he's just
little to me.
Of course he's 35, but he waslittle to me and you have to

(01:22:41):
heal in your own time.
Don't let anybody tell you well,you should be able to move on
by now.
No, no, no, don't even listento them.
Cross them off your Christmaslist like, no, no, you don't
want those people.
You need someone who willlisten to you if you have to
listen or tell them.
And it's hard to talk, and Iwould say it took me I was in my

(01:23:03):
fourth year of his loss beforeI could use his name, because I
told you I'm not a crier, but Icouldn't use his name and I'd
feel the teardrops coming.
So I switched the subject orsay my younger son or you know
that sort of thing.
So your life has been changedforever with a death, no matter

(01:23:23):
whose it is, but when it's yourbaby, there's no way that you
need to.
You can choose to, but there'sno way that you need to.
You can choose to, but there'sno way you need to keep blaming
yourself, because the past isthe past.
Whatever you didn't do as a momor dad, you didn't do, and it's

(01:23:44):
over.
But we have to believe that wewill be restored and help
someone else.
People come to me all the time.
Well, I couldn't have talked tothem four years ago?
I couldn't have, so I'm gladthey didn't show up.
It's just the last year and ahalf.
How do you handle it, diana?
How do you do this?

(01:24:04):
Why are you still doing things?
Why are you going out andhelping other people?
But you get restored by helpingother people.
But you get restored by helpingother people, and we got
restored by helping othercouples.
We're not counselors.
We don't have a PhD in anythingfor counseling.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
In life we just love.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
Yeah, I have a PhD in love and life, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
You know, listening to you share about this tragic
loss of your son, it'sheartbreaking because, as a
parent I think we all are like,even to this day, it's like I am
more aware of what goes on withmy daughter and making sure

(01:24:50):
that I mean there's so manydifferent ways and this, like we
want to protect.
All of us want to protect ourkids.
Again, I mean that's our natureas parents.
We want to protect.
I mean that's what we're hereto do.
We're like we.
You know no one's going to hurtour babies and in your tragic
loss, you sharing your storyabout this will help others in

(01:25:15):
their grieving processes.
For them to know that whatyou've shared today isn't easy.
It's not.
It gives them a little bit ofhope and it gives them an avenue
to say it's okay to heal inyour time, not when some
professional tells say it's okayto heal in your time, not when
some professional tells you it'sokay it.

(01:25:37):
Thank you for sharing that,that you're able to say no when
you're ready, when I'm ready, asyou said I.
Then I was able to to sharethat and you would.
You wouldn't be here today ifyou weren't here to share that.
And to be able to share.
That is tremendous, becausethink of everyone you're helping
, the people you've touchedalready, but the more people

(01:25:59):
that you're able to touch withyour words and being able to be
human and to say look, I meanlife's not perfect, but, man,
this loss, I'm going to honor myson.
I'm going to I'm going to honormy son, I'm going to do things
to make aware of such a tragicsituation again.
Uh, if you're someone who isneeding of help and have had

(01:26:21):
suicidal thoughts, uh, here inthe states, you can call or text
988 for the suicide uh crisishotline.
Uh again, john and diana, whatan honor to have you guys come
to hang out with us before youdo you?
Crisis hotline Again, john andDiana, what an honor to have you
guys come to hang out with us.
Do you have you guys?
Before we leave for this,before we leave today, is there

(01:26:41):
anything you guys would like tofinish wrapping up or just kind
of summarize before we head out?

Speaker 4 (01:26:48):
Well, I don't know your audience and it doesn't
matter.
The truth is still the truth.
And Jesus said I am the way, Iam the truth, I am the light.

(01:27:08):
No one comes to the Father, butthrough me I am the light.
No one comes to the Father butthrough me.
That's what changed my life allthose years ago at Marriage
Encounter, when I made thatdecision and it stuck.
The parable of the sower is thesower went out and sowed some
seeds.
Some grew up vast and the sunscorched them.

(01:27:30):
Some landed on the path and thebirds came up and eat it.
But some fell in good soil andit grew to produce 30, 50,
100-fold.
And when we came out of themarriage encounter weekend we
stopped at a stoplight.
I'll never forget it.
It was Clappison's Corners, justnorth of Hamilton, and I looked

(01:27:52):
at Diana with lightless red.
I said I hope I'm the good dirtthat that I will produce a
hundredfold and that led us onthe trail.
And it's you know.
I said I kicked him off the thethrone but he got back on.

(01:28:14):
I smartened up and every time Ismartened up he got back on.
And he's not a percif, he's agentleman and he loves us all
and I encourage everyone to takea look at that cross of the
life and I'm not talking aboutreligion, I'm talking about a

(01:28:34):
relationship with what I call mySavior, and it has an eternal
aspect to it that's probablymore important than anything
we've talked about today, andjust investigate that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
It's so good that you say that as we get close to
Christmas here in the States.

Speaker 4 (01:28:56):
Yes ma'am.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):
Yeah, I mean, as this show airs right now on the
radio, we are just a couple daysaway from wrapping up.
Well, christmas will be here,and so the show runs on the
weekend.
So, as we get ready to celebratechristmas and spend time with
family and and remember, I knowthat the hustle and bustle, it's

(01:29:18):
in the middle of the week, forfor most of us, well it is, it's
in the middle of the week, butto be able to take to take time
to, to slow down, to have thatfamily time with you know our,
our family, and I know there'slast minute gifts that need to
get be bought and last minuteneeds at the grocery store, the,
the, as everyone makes fun ofme for saying I'm a Costco

(01:29:41):
shopper and you know, yeah youknow, everyone, uh, uh, it's,
you know, as, as you enduregoing to these different types
of things, slow down, put on,put things slow down, put on,
put on, slow down.
Enjoy life a little bit, becauseonce we leave this physical
plane, you know and things youknow.

(01:30:02):
However, you, you know, if it'sinternal life, it's, if it's,
you know, if, for those who maynot believe, you know and they
think that this is it, thenthat's it.
You only got one life to live.
I'm not talking the soap opera,but we're talking for those who
believe that this is it thatyou, you know.
For those that are maybeatheists and don't believe in

(01:30:23):
certain things, and enjoy life,you know, be kind to others
during this holiday season.
Maybe someone's going throughsomething that may be tumultuous
, Maybe're in a in a badrelationship, maybe they had a
bad day at work.
Just smile, it goes a long way,it really does.
Again, our guest, uh, john anddiana, it's.

(01:30:43):
It's been an honor to have youguys come to hang out with us as
we vastly approach thechristmas time.
What a great um to be able tospend this time with you guys,
to share your spiritual uhrelationship on how you got to
where you're at, uh, thisjourney in life.
Uh, thank you so much forsharing your story.
I think it's something that Iwill uh take with me forever.

(01:31:08):
Um, you can't, you can't, youcan't put a price on that kind
of you know, to be able to havea conversation like this with
somebody.
Uh, people pay thousands ofdollars to sit in a counseling
session and they may not be ableto be able to afford it, but I
will say, listening to you guysthis evening, uh has been a new
awakening for me, a new just.

(01:31:29):
I feel just great.
Even though I may not be withsomebody, I just feel that much
more spiritually touched.
So I appreciate and I thank youfor that.
I mean that to me, that thankyou for sharing that with me.
It's it's it's been uh verydifferent, because I definitely

(01:31:49):
don't always share a lot on theshow, but it's definitely
spiritually uh thank you fortouching me that way.
So thank you very much for yourguys's time this evening, and I
and I will say this I this hasto be one of the longest
interviews I've ever done, so Ithis is which has been just
great on how this is all.
It just been so fantastic to beable to share this time with

(01:32:11):
you guys and thank you so muchthank you.

Speaker 4 (01:32:14):
Well, thank you for having your son, and you are a
great, great host.

Speaker 2 (01:32:19):
Yeah, it's very comfortable being with you well,
I appreciate that you hear thateveryone.
I'm a great host so thank youfor that.
What a great gift.
Um, again, uh, for, for john anddiana, thank you so much for
coming to hang out with us thisevening.
Um, as we wrap things up herein the Pacific Northwest, I'd
like to thank all of ourlisteners again, happy holidays,

(01:32:41):
merry Christmas to you.
We, as we get close to whichwill be the next show, which
will be our prediction show notthat we just predict things, I
don't know that we ever go backand review them but it's always
fun to do that.
So, uh, happy holidays, merrychristmas to you.
Uh, and then, for those whocelebrate hanukkah, happy
hanukkah, as that approaches usas well, right around the corner

(01:33:04):
, right after christmas.
Again, from the pacificnorthwest, I'd like to thank our
guests.
Uh, john and diana, thank youfor coming to hang out with us.
Um, for my entire team, markchristopher, jeff jens and sofia
magana and myself, mario magana, be sure to look up at the sky,
because you never know what youmight see good night, good

(01:33:26):
night.