June 6, 2024 • 54 mins
What if your career path took an unexpected turn thanks to a chance encounter at a yoga class? In our pilot episode of "User Experience Research Confidential," we sit down with Ashley R, a former user experience researcher who found her true calling as a product manager. From studying cognitive science and animal cognition at UC San Diego, Ashley's journey is anything but ordinary. She recounts her serendipitous interaction with a former head of UX at Google that launched her into the world of user research, her initial projects at Google, and her eventual transition to the Google Play team. Now thriving in Zurich, Ashley balances a demanding career with a love for nature and skiing.
Ashley also opens up about the challenges faced by researchers in large corporations, where strict privacy guidelines and competing business goals can make it difficult to humanize user perspectives. Her reflections on her career transition from burnout at Google to a fulfilling work-life balance in Europe offer valuable insights for anyone looking to balance career aspirations with personal well-being. We delve into the superior communication skills required by researchers and the nuances of transitioning between different roles and companies, including her move from Google to the dynamic environment of Get Your Guide.
The episode doesn't just cover the serious stuff; it also highlights the passion-driven nature of researchers and the deep commitment they have to their fields. Ashley's transition from researcher to product manager underscores the importance of flexibility and adaptability in research methodologies. We wrap up with a memorable recount of a team offsite to Helsinki, showcasing the camaraderie and trust within the UX team at Get Your Guide. Tune in for an insightful conversation that navigates the fascinating world of user experience research and career transitions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Harini (00:00):
It's a really tough job being a researcher.
The more Ashley keeps talking,I'm like should I be trying to
be a PM?
Why are we doing this toourselves?
Marcos (00:11):
Mass exodus from the field.
Thanks, Ashley.
Ashley (00:16):
Join the dark side with me.
Marcos (00:31):
Welcome to User Experience Research Confidential
a podcast by user experienceresearchers for user experience
researchers, about userexperience research.
My name is Marcus Enyo and I ama user experience researcher
with 25 years of experience inthe industry.
Harini (00:48):
And I'm Harini Chandrasekhar, a researcher with
over 20 years experience acrossa variety of industries,
including tech.
Marcos (00:56):
Well, this is exciting.
This is our pilot episode ofthis podcast and hopefully we'll
have many conversations withinteresting user researchers
that can provide our audiencewith some perspective and some
insights on this field.
Harini (01:12):
Yeah, we're really excited to share this concept
with you and really excited tokick off our first one.
Marcos (01:21):
We had a really good conversation with a user
experience researcher whotransitioned into the PM role
and it was really interestinghearing her journey through user
research and also the insightsthat she had having worked in
both sides of that relationship.
Harini (01:38):
Let's do this.
Marcos (01:39):
Okay, and with that, let's listen to the interview.
And with that, let's listen tothe interview.
I'm very excited to have ourfirst guest on our pilot episode
of our podcast.
Ashley R, would you like to sayyour last name or do you want
to keep it more confidential?
Let's keep it confidential.
(02:03):
Protect the participant data.
Yes, exactly yeah, pii, wewe'll keep it confidential.
Yes, exactly yeah, pii, we gotto keep that confidential, cool.
So Ashley is a former userexperience researcher who
transitioned to a PM role, andshe's also a former Californian
who's transitioned to living inEurope, in Germany and
Switzerland.
So welcome to the show, ashley.
(02:26):
We're very happy you could joinus today.
Ashley (02:29):
Thank you Really.
Really happy to be here as well.
Marcos (02:32):
All right.
So what's a typical day likefor you?
Ashley (02:37):
A day in the life?
Good question.
So I, as you mentioned, I'mfrom California originally and I
moved to Berlin where I workedwith you at Get your Guide, an
e-commerce travel website andapp, and I recently moved to
Switzerland a year and a halfago and also, at the same time,
(02:59):
made the transition to be aproduct manager.
So I like to say I moved overto the dark side, into the PM
world and a day in the life alot of meetings, writing
documents and then, when I'm notdoing the PM job, exploring
Zurich, skiing, spending as muchtime in nature as I can.
Marcos (03:22):
How did you get to user experience research?
Ashley (03:27):
So my background started at UC San Diego.
I studied cognitive science andI was really lucky because I
had some great mentors comingout of that program that had
ties to the Bay Area andindustry roles.
When I was studying cognitivescience, I actually wanted to
study animal cognition and so Iwas doing research studying
(03:50):
elephant and dolphin cognition.
My mission was to prove to theworld how smart animals were,
and then I quickly realized thatthe idea of sitting in a lab
just studying at the time it wasvideo recordings of these
animals, lab just studying atthe time it was video recordings
of these animals was not for me.
It felt very isolating andlonely and slow.
(04:13):
And at the time in my programthere were some human-computer
interaction classes, verycollaborative, doing exciting
things like building web apps,and the first web app I built
with my team was it was calledBeach Bum and it was the idea
was video cameras to see howbusy the beaches in San Diego
were.
So that was the original ideawhere it all started.
Marcos (04:35):
So you finished school, and what was the next step for
you then?
Ashley (04:40):
The next step.
I went to a yoga class back inthe Bay Area as I was applying
for jobs and met the former headof UX from Google, who was a
yoga teacher and also working ata VC.
And then she put me in touchwith some of her coworkers who
(05:02):
still worked at Google and I wasapplying to many different
companies in the UX space.
I wasn't sure if I wanteddesign or research, and so very
lucky to end up at Google tolearn from such amazing
researchers.
I think any big company is sucha great starting point to learn
and really understand bestpractices.
(05:23):
To learn and really understandbest practices and then
eventually realized bigcompanies were not my thing and
so switched over to a startup,and I've actually been there
ever since.
So yeah, coming up on fiveyears, I get your guide.
Harini (05:39):
I'm curious too about, like you said, you were deciding
between design and research.
You know, like you could havegone in either direction, like
what made you choose researchgood question.
Ashley (05:52):
So, yeah, when I was in in class in university it was it
was a very fluid like therewasn't a clear division between
design and research.
I knew I wanted to do somethingin UX and the other thing was I
had a background doing thisanimal research from before,
because I thought I originallywanted to continue that career
(06:14):
path and potentially go intoacademia, and so it just made
sense, at least for my first job.
I could tell a better storywhen interviewing with my
research background.
So it came down to honestlywhat I could get my first job in
.
But I'm really happy I stuckwith research because I think
it's a much better fit thandesign.
I don't think I'd be a gooddesigner.
Harini (06:36):
It's awesome.
I mean, it's funny.
I can relate so much to yourstory because it's a similar
path for me and I actually endedup switching from design to
research for those reasons.
So I fully, I get it.
Marcos (06:49):
And what kind of, without breaking NDA?
What kind of work did you do atGoogle?
Ashley (06:54):
I was originally working on a voice application for a
smartwatch.
It was a very experimentalproject that left Google X and
then that we weren't able tovalidate product market fit and
so it actually spun down theclassic technology looking for a
problem rather than technologysolving a problem.
(07:16):
And then I ended up moving mostof my time on the Google Play
team, which was kind of a bootcamp.
I spent most of my time on theGoogle Play team, which was kind
of a boot camp I like to thinkabout.
It was such a high pressure,very high performing team which
(07:38):
was again great to learn,understand best practices, learn
from really strong researchers.
And then I moved over to thecomms team, which was also very
fun, a really reallycollaborative environment.
Fun, a really reallycollaborative environment.
But then, with Google, therewas a lot of reorgs happening
and and ultimately my heart wastelling me to move to Europe,
and so I ended up moving toEurope.
Marcos (07:54):
Reminds me of a conversation that we had like a
long time ago, where you'rementioning the that still.
Google, like any other company,does an internal survey of its
employees and just trackemployee satisfaction and things
that could be improved upon,and one thing that you mentioned
that I thought was reallyinteresting was that the user
(08:17):
experience researchers had alower job satisfaction score
than other maybe engineers, alsodesigners even.
Why do you think that is?
What is it about our roles thatleads to dissatisfaction?
Ashley (08:38):
I would it's.
It's a great question.
I would love to hear both ofyour points of view on this as
well.
I believe research is like oiland water with industry.
It felt every time I didresearch, both at Google and Get
your Guide the only twocompanies I've done research
there was so many externalpressures that made it really
(09:00):
hard to do research the timepressure, the pressure to come
up with results, because if youthink about research, we don't
ever know what the results willbe.
But of course, especially whenpeople are putting a lot of
money behind it, they expectresults and often there's biases
at play.
You know product managers,designers, executives trying to
(09:22):
bias the results, productmanagers, designers, executives
trying to bias the results,trying to skew the presentation.
So I really feel like researchis oil and water when it comes
to industry and I think it's soimportant.
But I do find it's reallychallenging to combat all of
those things.
Harini (09:39):
As a product manager.
Now, how, if at all, has thatperspective changed, like, do
you still see it the same way,or do you have like, is it the
same with product managers, ordo you find it's a completely
different relationship?
Ashley (09:52):
So with product managers , I, when I stepped into this
role, I dropped two levels and Iwent from a lead researcher to
an associate product manager andI was paid a lot less, lower
job title and yet I stillmanagers do have more say, more
voice and it's they don't haveto fight for a seat at the table
(10:31):
, whereas with research it feltlike it was constantly fighting
for a seat at the table.
And what I think is reallyvaluable about research that was
a PM like.
I still really, really value itand I actually don't have a
dedicated researcher that I canwork with, so I miss that so
much.
But I definitely think there isa place for research and it is
(10:54):
very important that companieshave it, and it could be the
misunderstanding of how to workwith research.
You know, I think with teams ingeneral, in tech teams, you
have all these differentfunctions trying to work
together that have completelydifferent incentives and goals,
and it makes for a reallychallenging environment but also
(11:16):
great results can come from it.
Harini (11:19):
Yeah, I mean that's interesting.
I think competing goals is atrue concern and it's a true
challenge.
But I also sometimes wonder if,like researchers kind of come
from more of an area of passion.
Like you know, looking acrossresearchers at least I work with
and even my own like backgroundand how I relate to it, it's
like less about you know, Idon't know, I don't even know
(11:41):
how to frame this, but it's muchmore about like you find so
much of yourself invested in,like the problems you're solving
and the people whose voice youare, you know, and like you take
that kind of personally andyou're like what do you mean?
Like people are saying this youknow I'm not the one saying this
and like why is nobody takingthat seriously?
And it starts to become likelike you kind of see yourself as
(12:03):
this champion of the voice of,like you know, users which I
think is really different fromany other function Right, like
most other functions have likeless emotion in some sense
attached to it.
It's like you code or you youknow, identify, like the
business strategy or thebusiness opportunity, and you
(12:25):
triangulate, like thesedifferent business signals to
get you there.
But I feel like there'ssomething about research and I
don't know, maybe I'm alone inthis that is inherently more
emotional and like passion, andyou know it requires like more
empathy, like in general interms of soft skills, and I feel
(12:46):
like there's something aboutthat melting pot of those things
that make things sometimes feelmore personal than maybe it
should be.
Ashley (12:56):
It's so important that that emotional aspect gets
brought to other team members.
And I remember one of thebiggest indicators of if a study
would be successful or not whenI was running research is if
the stakeholders actually sawthe data firsthand, so in an
interview, if they actuallyobserved the interview.
If no one observed myinterviews, or very few, I was
(13:18):
like, okay, this study it's notgoing to go well, and um and so
as a PM, what I've noticed iswe're incentivized to think in
very high level, kind ofstatistics Um, if things have
small reach, we we have todiscard it and it completely
takes the emotion and empathyout of the problems we're
(13:40):
solving, which is not a good wayto work.
I think it's really importantto have that very close tie to
the customers, the empathy.
So that's what I'm reallymissing right now in my job
because I don't get to workclosely with a researcher.
There's not one allocated to mygroup yet.
Marcos (13:59):
Yet, yeah, yeah, it's interesting like hearing both of
you describe this, thissituation.
It's, on one hand, we have this, like you said, like this
empathy and this affinity torepresent the voice of the, of
the user, and then, when we takethat to the teams, and if it's,
if it aligns to something thatthey already had a hunch about
(14:21):
or they had a belief, thefeedback often is like well, we
knew that already, even though,like well, you didn't know it,
you thought that might have beenthe case.
Now we confirm that.
But there's pushback, like no,no, no, you didn't discover
anything new.
But then when you come up withsomething that is counter to
(14:43):
their ideas, or something thatnew, there's pushback because it
resets their understanding ofthe condition that they're
trying to address.
So it's kind of like thispush-pull that they're trying to
address.
Ashley (15:01):
So it's kind of like this push-pull Right.
Both are losing paths.
They either don't think thatthey learned anything new or
they don't believe the resultsbecause it doesn't validate what
they already thought.
So it's, I think, to me.
I really felt that struggle andI know there are ways to work
around it and great researcherswill, but I felt that
frustration as a researcher.
Harini (15:22):
Totally.
I think we can all relate tothat right on some level.
And to make things morecomplicated, especially in like
larger companies, it's also hardto humanize the user
perspective because you got toanonymize, you got to like blur
faces perspective.
Because you got to anonymize,you got to like blur faces.
You can't, like there's so manykind of guardrails around
representing the voice of thatuser or users, and that makes it
(15:49):
challenging too because, likeyou really want, like you said,
like when people hear itfirsthand, it's a very different
experience than seeing, likesomething in a deck or a dock,
and it gets increasingly harderand harder to bring you know,
truly bring it to life in a deckor a dock, and it gets
increasingly harder and harderto bring you know, truly bring
it to life in a way that can beimmersive and empathetic and
bringing people along.
So that's also part of thechallenge.
Like I feel like in many wayswe're kind of between a rock and
(16:10):
a hard place, where we'retrying to represent the voice of
the user and that's the job,but it often, to Marcos's point,
either counters or contradicts,like where the business wants
to go, and then there's allthese competing goals and you're
trying to kind of, you know,like juggle all these balls and
try to make people happy butfind middle ground.
(16:31):
And it's really sometimesreally hard to do.
Ashley (16:41):
You have to do.
It's so difficult.
I do think researchers have toplay in between all of the job
functions and collaborate thebest, have the best
communication skills.
I think researchers have waybetter communication skills than
other job functions.
Thinking about the PMsengineers, designers because
they have to.
They have to bring theirinsights to life.
They have to get people onboard stakeholder interviews to
(17:04):
align groups even beforestarting research.
So it's really challenging.
In some ways, I actually thinkit's harder than being a PM.
It's a really tough job being aresearcher.
Harini (17:16):
And the more Ashley keeps talking, I'm like should I
be trying to be a PM?
Why are we doing this toourselves?
Ashley (17:25):
Join the dark side with me.
Marcos (17:30):
Mass exodus from the field.
Thanks, Ashley.
Ashley (17:36):
Or it's like bringing the research ideas to life by
kind of influencing the industrythrough other job roles.
Marcos (17:45):
So you mentioned that there are a few years at Google,
you were done with bigcompanies and done with the Bay
Area and you wanted to make thisbig move.
What was the main motivationbehind that?
Ashley (18:03):
I had always had a desire to move abroad to Europe.
My mom is from Canada, my dadis American, so I think I always
had a little bit of aninternational leaning.
I studied abroad one summer fora month and a half when I was
in university in Berlin, had anamazing time summer in Berlin
and I think that really stuckwith me and so I thought I would
(18:27):
move to Europe for a year, kindof taking a break, needed a
reset after being in a burnoutsituation at Google, and then
ended up really liking it anddeciding to stay for one more
year.
It's been five years and I justkeep telling myself eventually
I'll move back to the West Coastof the US because the job
market is really incredible onthe West Coast.
(18:50):
I think I'm pretty jealous ofthe job market, especially in
the tech scene in the US, somuch smaller in Europe.
But the work-life balance keepsme here the ability to travel
so easily.
Marcos (19:04):
And how was that moving from Google, I think 100,000
employees when you left in 2019,to Get your Guide that I think
had like 400 employees when youjoined.
Ashley (19:15):
It was a very big transition.
The early days of Get yourGuide were chaos, as you
remember.
So one of the biggest thingsmoving to a smaller company is
there isn't the infrastructure.
So at Google there's theresearch operations team I'm
sure many, many big companieshave that which help with
recruiting and scheduling.
(19:35):
You have access to tools.
Budget isn't a big deal.
And then I remember going fromdoing many studies in a quarter
to the reality was I think wecould only do maybe two studies
per quarter, especially if theywere bigger, because we had to
do so much more ourselves.
It took a lot longer to do therecruiting and things like that.
(19:57):
Ourselves took a lot longer todo the recruiting and things
like that.
That was definitely a big thing.
The other lesson I learned ifthe product team is not
organized, if they don't havetheir shit together, research
will not have impact, and so,again, it somehow falls on the
shoulder of the researcher tofigure out how to make the
(20:18):
product managers work better andif they're not working well or
kind of like, make up sometimesfor some of the gaps in a team,
because we have so much pressureto make sure the research has
impact and there could be manyfailure points if the product
manager isn't able to translatethe insights into action or if
(20:40):
they don't have an organizedprocess for adding things to
their roadmap.
You know, sometimes I saw thatin the early days of the company
and felt like I had to step upa lot there.
I know you did as well.
Harini (20:53):
You know, ashley, like if you could just listening to
this transition right from oneextreme to the other.
I had the opposite.
I went from like a smallstartup to a large company, so I
kind of had the reverseexperience.
I'm curious, as you, if youcould go back in time and give
yourself advice for when youwere joining the start, like the
smaller setup from Google, whatwould you tell yourself?
(21:17):
What advice would you giveyourself?
Ashley (21:20):
set up from Google.
What would you tell yourself?
What advice would you giveyourself?
I think the key advice I wouldgive myself is really taking
time to interview and make surethat the startup is the right
place, and I was willing to makesure that.
I'm willing to accept thetrade-offs of maybe not doing as
many studies, having to do moreself-service, more of the
(21:43):
processes that we're alreadytaking care of at bigger
companies.
Because she had a similar path.
She went from a very smallstartup to a big company and she
said make sure that thestartups they ask you tough
(22:03):
questions and make sure theinterview processes is very
tough, because if it's not tough, like many startups, it can be
very, very casual and that'sactually a red flag.
That's a bad sign.
It almost feels good that theinterview processes can be so
easy.
But she did say that and I dothink that was good advice and
Get your Guide did have a prettyrobust interview process.
(22:27):
But in comparison, one of myfriends the interview process
for her at one Berlin startupwas going for a coffee chat and
then having a phone chat, notreally being asked serious
questions, and then you know, ifyou know that they're not
evaluating you seriously, thenthey're probably not evaluating
other candidates seriously.
What advice would you give?
Harini (22:49):
yourself.
Yeah, that is really goodadvice.
I mean, when I transitionedfrom like a startup to a big
company, I think you know I hadno idea what I was in for and I
joined as a as the firstqualitative researcher in a
really, really technicallycomplex part of the company and
I remember telling my husband,like, if I don't get fired in
(23:11):
the next month and I figure thisout, I feel like I'm going to
be able to do anything afterthis, you know.
So that was a good feeling tosee it through.
But I think the thing that theadvice I would give is just ask
questions, you know, like don't,don't, like you have the
benefit of being that fresh eyesin the room, so I would
literally walk up to reallyseasoned tenured engineers and
(23:34):
be like, please explain this tome, like I'm five, because this
is, I don't get this, and Ifound like when I would do that
and then I would ask them like afew follow ups, oftentimes they
didn't really have a clear likereason or understanding why
something was the way it waseither.
And then that made like thatopened up a lot of rich
discussion and debate and Ifound a lot, lots of like low
(23:57):
hanging fruit to address andkind of establish like my
reputation in that space.
And then what?
Like you know, start small,grow big.
And the other advice I wouldgive is really like, at the
beginning, don't be aperfectionist.
You know like, do some scrappywork that you might not like
(24:17):
feel great about, but you'redoing it to kind of for the
greater good.
You're like learning the space,you're gaining trust, you're
doing a few things, you know, toappease your stakeholders and
kind of get a seat at the table,so to speak, so that you can do
more impactful work later, onceyou've earned that spot.
So that's kind of what I wouldprobably looking back like.
(24:41):
I think someone gave mesomething along those lines,
like similar advice, and it heldme in really good stead.
Ashley (24:47):
I love both of those, especially the one about asking
questions.
I think for me, one of thethings that I learned as a
product manager as well, is likeasking questions can be so
powerful also as a negotiationtactic, which I didn't realize.
And then I recently read somebooks and took a workshop that
the company hosted and they saidthe best negotiators ask the
(25:09):
most questions.
And it's true, because it'sexactly what you said as soon as
you start asking questions,even the people who thought they
knew something then all of asudden uncover themselves that
they don't actually know knoweverything and and it's it's
such a powerful technique.
So I really I really liked thatone and I actually at one point
(25:31):
wrote on a post-it note asklike, ask more questions, ask a
question before I say my opinion, because it's so, so powerful.
Marcos (25:39):
Yeah.
So before the advice, I thinkthat idea of like asking
questions, that can be a way ofinoculating research against
that pushback that we alreadyknew these things.
Because if you can have theseconversations before you run
this study to really map outlike the knowledge base, like
(26:01):
these are the things yes, weknow, because we have supporting
evidence versus these are somehunches or beliefs that we have
but there's actually no evidenceto support that.
But by asking questions you cankind of tease those apart and
then when you come back withfindings that can move some of
(26:22):
those hunches into the knowledgespace, then maybe that can
actually be a one of theresearchers at the company.
Ashley (26:40):
And she designed the deck so she documented
hypotheses, so she had thesestakeholder interviews,
documented what the hypothesiswas, the key, let's say three to
five hypotheses going into thestudy.
And then when she wrote thereport and presented it she
listed the hypothesis which waskind of spoken in the words of
her stakeholders and so theycouldn't easily be like, oh, I
(27:03):
already knew this, because whatthey had said was documented
very, very clearly.
And then the story she couldsay, okay, this was not
validated or here's more nuanceto what we thought we knew.
So the hypothesis and thenlearning format of the deck
worked really well.
Harini (27:24):
That's a really good tip .
I love that one, yeah, and ifthere's one thing that comes
naturally to researchers orpeople that gravitate to any you
know anything in this realm,this field, it is asking
questions Right, so it's areally easy thing to lean into,
definitely.
Marcos (27:41):
That's great because you get them on the record.
Ashley (27:43):
Exactly.
Marcos (27:46):
If I were to go back, I think it aligns with a lot of
the things both of you aresaying.
Right, it's to be scrappy and totake time to bring your
stakeholders along with you.
Because when I first joined, Iwas coming from Microsoft and
(28:08):
from Google, like these reallybig companies with really robust
research programs, and both ofthose have a very I would say,
very mature research culture.
And then going to a smallercompany that knew that they
wanted and needed user researchbut not really internalizing
(28:29):
what that would mean on aday-to-day basis and having some
of that pushback when I went tothem and be like hey, no, no,
no, we need to do it this way sothat we can do some learnings
before we rush out to buildthings.
So I was a little bitfrustrated because I was wanting
them to be at this level, likeoperating at level five, but
(28:53):
they were coming from level oneand then like being frustrated
that it took so long.
Why, why, why weren't they?
Why weren't they like justjumping up and and operating at
that higher level, but beingmore patient and taking them
from?
Okay, this is where we are now.
Let's take a little bit, a moregradual, more gradual step and
evolving that skill and thatdiscipline, rather than in one
(29:16):
big leap and expecting them tojoin me where I was walking them
through these incremental steps.
Ashley (29:22):
Which is something designers don't have to do
product managers, engineers noneof these other roles have to do
.
But what you're describing isfamiliar, where you actually
have to kind of diagnose what'swrong with how a product culture
, ux culture, is working andthen fix it.
And it goes way beyond what thescope of a research researcher
(29:47):
should be doing.
But to have impact, I do thinkwe have to play that role like
diagnose what's not working witha team, try to help fix it, if
not escalate it.
But for us to have the mostimpact, the team has to be
working well.
Harini (30:04):
It's so funny because I feel like there's so much
parallels between being a parentor being a therapist and being
a researcher.
Right, like you kind of have tostep away from the problem
space, be a bit impartial, nottake things personally, diagnose
the problem exactly as you'resaying, and then identify, like
(30:24):
why is something not resonatingor landing?
Is it like a relationshipproblem?
Is it a structural problem?
Is it a process problem?
Is it a problem of trust?
You know, and like, is it aproblem of maturity, like Marcos
brought up, and like then chipaway at it using a whole arsenal
of tools.
So similar to being a parent ora therapist in so many ways.
(30:44):
And I truly feel, after being,after becoming a mom of three
kids, I'm a much betterresearcher now, not because my
the way I research has changed,but because I fundamentally like
like identify the alignmentproblems or like how, like you
know these, these, all theseissues that surround the
(31:05):
research, and my patience for ithas grown exponentially,
because I'm like I'm going toreframe this and like think of
how would I explain this to myfour-year-old and here's how I
would approach that, and then Ibreak it down and it's.
I found it to be such a kind oflike impactful, you know
efficient way of like reframingthe problem for myself to get it
(31:27):
done.
Marcos (31:29):
So you got used to working with toddlers and that
helped you working withstakeholders across your team.
Harini (31:35):
I also have way fewer hours in a day now to make
progress and to unblock thingsright.
So I've developed this processof where is the problem and how
do I diagnose it and how do Iunblock myself in a very
structured way, similar to how Ideal with it in my personal
life, and I found that to beeffective.
Marcos (31:57):
It's my.
My wife says the same thing,right?
She says that if you want toget anything done at work, give
it to a working mom because sheain't got time to be messing
around.
Harini (32:08):
Right, she's, she's in and out and she has to, you know
, do everything that she needsto do to get done so that she
can go and, you know, be withthe family and I mean, I think
it's also it's exactly likebeing a therapist too right,
like I feel like all those softskills that we talked about
early on, like it's those skillsthat, to Ashley's point, like
(32:29):
researchers kind of need to agreater degree than many other
functions we support or workalongside, and it's both our
greatest strength and ourweakness in many ways.
Marcos (32:41):
So, after having to deal with all that for a number of
years, you got fed up anddecided to become a PM.
Is that?
Does that describe the thoughtprocess behind that transition?
Ashley (32:53):
Not, you know, not exactly.
I definitely felt thefrustration and over time,
realized that, for whateverreason for me I, you know, maybe
it was I was more unlucky withsome of the teams I ended up on,
or maybe I had less patiencethan others I ended up on, or
(33:16):
maybe I had less patients thanothers.
But I also actually wanted tomove to the PM role because I am
very motivated by impact and Ido really love the idea of
building things and launchingthings.
So, at the core, what gets mevery excited is the idea that
you know there are problems andwe as a team of engineers,
designers, researchers and PMscan help bring about
(33:37):
improvements.
And so that's what reallyexcites me.
And, you know, I think researchcan help bring about those
improvements, but I do think asa PM, you can sometimes have,
unfortunately, maybe like moreof a seat at the table to help
bring about the changes.
So that was ultimately what ledme to try out being a PM and I
was like, you know, worst casescenario I can always go back to
(33:59):
being a researcher, and thenI've learned what it's like.
And, you know, I think the moreI yeah, the more I work on
product teams, the more.
I wish that all of the for usto all rotate and have firsthand
empathy for what all of theroles are like, um, because I
(34:36):
think that would all make uswork, work together better and
and realize where, where otherpeople are coming from as they,
as they work on projects so whenyou were a researcher, how
would you define what a goodresearcher?
is when I was a researcher.
Marcos (34:56):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Ashley (34:57):
Yeah, early out I really looked up to people who came
from academia were reallyadvocating for the rigor in
studies planning very complexstudies, rigor in studies,
planning very complex studies.
There was one very well-knownresearcher at Google at the time
(35:18):
very, very senior, originallystarted out in academia, then
moved over to Google and wasstrongly advocating for things
like not having anyone elsereally participate in the
research, especially not dosimple usability studies, and I
thought that that was what agood researcher was, and I
learned that actually the bestresearchers are people who are
(35:39):
really really like, really goodat working with other
stakeholders and bringing themalong in the journey, asking
questions, listening well,having empathy, helping teams
level up when they're notperforming well as a team,
things like that.
And it's not about doing thesexiest studies using as many
(36:03):
methods as possible.
It's kind of going back to whatyou mentioned earlier.
It's diagnosing okay, what doesthe team need now, how can I
help the team?
Maybe it's a simple usabilitystudy or maybe it's a more
complex study and then reallybringing people along and also
the other thing, having strongideas and recommendations.
(36:25):
So now that I'm a PM, I reallyvalue it when people give me
very opinionated, strongrecommendations and I remember
getting feedback when I was aresearcher that I was too
prescriptive with some of myideas, and it probably varies
from team to team.
(36:46):
Some teams don't wantprescriptive ideas.
I really love it when peoplecome to me with very specific
solutions and then we can have aconversation about it.
Um, other teams work well withhow might we use?
I think there's a variety ofways to do that, but I I really
love having really strongopinionated researchers because
it it makes the conversationeasier and as a PM I have very
(37:08):
little time, so it's it'shelpful just to kind of get to
the core of things, and that'smy journey through.
You know, starting out thinkinga researcher was great if they
had fancy titles and were veryacademic in their approach, and
I think the most successfulresearchers in industry have a
different way of working.
What about you?
(37:30):
What have you found?
What are some good qualities?
Harini (37:33):
You know, I kind of agree with you, like I feel like
there's something to be saidfor be like like the industrial,
like the environment ofindustry is so different from
the walls of like an educationalinstitute.
Right, and I I myself am kindof a self thought researcher who
came up through veryunconventional means.
This is not a career I everexpected to find myself in, but
(37:56):
here I am and I found what worksfor me is I've come from more
of a scrappy industry backgroundwhere it doesn't matter so much
to your point, like the fluffaround the thing and how, even
to some extent how rigoroussomething was, it really matters
more how actionable is theinsight and how much, what
(38:18):
change can it impact?
And then what are the risks ofgetting it right or wrong.
And, in many ways, like what Ithink makes for a good
researcher is having a widetoolkit that you really think of
as a toolkit rather than like awide toolkit that you really
think of as a toolkit ratherthan, like you know, holding
yourself really kind of too trueto any one thing, but being
like having this exploringmindset of being open to a
(38:40):
variety of things, depending on,like what it is you're trying
to do and then also beingwilling to throw a bunch of
spaghetti at a wall, see what'ssticking, what has legs, and
then kind of go from there,right.
So, if you, when I plan out mystudies, I like to plan them in
phases but I never really thinkbeyond the first phase because
(39:01):
I'm like I want the first phaseto guide what should be phase
two, three and four, because ifI go in saying these are my five
phases and this is exactly howI'm going to do it, it means I'm
not willing to learn as I kindof go from step one to what lies
ahead.
So that's kind of how I thinkabout it.
I feel like academic rigor isvalued and has a place, but it's
(39:23):
often at odds with what isreally meaningful in an industry
environment and we have to bewilling to to adapt, evolve and
really see where.
Where is their legs, likedirectionally, what should we
pursue?
Right, because, like ourmethods are, so there's so much
(39:44):
of like humanness built into it.
Like that's the same question,but depending on how it's being
framed, you're're probably goingto get a different output of
answers.
And so much as we like to thinkof research as a science, I
would say it's as much an art,if not more, and really leaning
into that, I think, is whatmakes for a good researcher.
Marcos (40:06):
Yeah, I totally agree Like this idea that letting go
of the idea that we are like ascience, right it's.
I think the best researchersare the ones that can influence
people in the way that they needto be influenced, and some
people it is okay.
When you just need to bring alot of data to bear to this
(40:27):
question, other stakeholdersmight be like no, we're going to
workshop this question andwe're going to come up with a
solution collaboratively, andothers may be, you know,
completely different way.
I think some of the biggestimpacts I've had on products and
teams it's not because I didthe right study, but I knew how
(40:48):
to present information in theway that they needed to hear it.
Harini (40:51):
Yeah, and I feel like also using and leaning into,
like what makes us unique, right, like so researchers often have
visibility into the gaps thatno other function does.
And so how do you think, beyondyour org chart or beyond, like
the space you're even assignedto, to bubble up those problems
that you see that lie in thegaps and maybe nobody else cares
(41:12):
about that problem, right, butthen see that as an opportunity,
like how can you, to your point, bubble that up in a way that
makes people want to take action?
You know, is it about, likehere is the potential loss of
business if we don't do this, orhere's the potential risk?
But really like getting otherpeople to see that problem that
you now see is powerful.
(41:33):
And I kind of feel like a goodresearcher thinks outside the
job function and the space thatthey're assigned to, to really
kind of lean into what makesresearch research.
Ashley (41:47):
So yeah, so well said.
Research, research, so yeah, sowell said.
You know, and as a PM now it'sso much of my day is focused on
just keeping things afloat,trying to spin the wheel when
things break with bugs or thingslike that, and kind of moving
quarter to quarter to achieveour impact.
And it is hard to think aboutthese, to even have the
(42:10):
emotional energy to think aboutthese bigger problems, unsolved
problems or what's between thecracks.
I think, as you said, andthat's where research could have
a lot of value if, again, thestakeholders that you're working
with are open to listening toit.
And then I guess to Marcus'spoint.
It's how you try to convincethe stakeholders, to get them to
(42:32):
see these other problems thatneed to be solved, these other
opportunities.
But researchers can add a lotof value there.
Marcos (42:39):
So, Ashley, what advice would you have for a researcher
that's looking to make thattransition to a different role?
Maybe PM?
Ashley (42:48):
I would say go for it.
I think product teams ingeneral can work.
My dream is to have everyone,at least for one week, try a
different role, and when I wasmaking the transition for PM
roles but I think for any roleit's very tricky to go to
another company to try out adifferent role.
(43:10):
So if someone is interested inmoving from research to PM or
design, analytics, engineering,it's so much easier to do it
within the same company.
But go for it, because at theend of the day, it is so
valuable to know what it's liketo be in the shoes of a
different stakeholder that youhave to work with and try to
(43:31):
convince and influence, and soeven if you realize after a few
months it's not the right thing,at least you've learned so much
from it, so it's definitelyworth it.
Yeah, I think for you comingfrom a design background and
then going into research, I'msure you're so good at
collaborating with designersbecause you know what it's like.
(43:51):
You know what frustrates them,what delights them, things like
that.
Harini (43:56):
Yeah, I love this idea of yours.
I hope it scales.
I'm all for it.
Marcos (44:03):
So, looking back at your career trajectory, it seems
like it's been defined by anumber of transitions from
Google to Get your Guide, fromthe Bay Area, to Berlin and now
to Zurich.
What is your next bigtransition?
Ashley (44:22):
I'm very passionate about the ocean and solving
ocean problems.
Going back to what I saidearlier, I thought I wanted to
prove to the world how smartanimals were, to help save
animals.
And you know, I realized noneof the existing professions
really made sense for me.
But I think my next move istrying to do something to help
(44:45):
the ocean, help the ocean.
So it could be going to anocean-related startup and
working on ocean problems, andin terms of the specifics, I
have no idea what that lookslike, but I also like the idea
of continuing to downsize, go tosmaller companies and go to the
early phases of a startup.
Harini (45:06):
Yeah, See, this is what I mean, like researchers are so
purpose-driven and passionate,right, like we pick these fields
we really, or topic areas thatwe really truly care about, and
then, like, go in.
But I just think that's howwe're wired.
Ashley (45:23):
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but I can see it now
that you bring it up, like wehave to care so deep.
We have to fight the fight.
Right, it's as researchers.
You know, when I was aresearcher, I always felt I was
fighting the fight, and so we do.
I think we do have to be verypassion, passion driven.
Marcos (45:43):
Cool.
Well, thank you very much,ashley, this has been very fun.
Harini (45:46):
Yes, thank you so much.
Oh, of course.
Ashley (45:48):
I loved yeah, I loved chatting with both of you and
let me know how I can help withthe podcast in any way.
Would love to support it soyeah, awesome, awesome.
Marcos (46:02):
Well, we may have you back when we start having more
issues with our.
Pm partners.
Nice Well, thanks again, and Iwill see you in Berlin.
Harini (46:09):
Sounds good.
Thank you so much, Ashley, itwas so so lovely to meet you.
Ashley (46:14):
Yeah, really lovely to meet you too.
Harini (46:14):
Thank you All right.
Ashley (46:15):
Have a good rest of your day.
Marcos (46:24):
I really enjoyed the conversation with Ashley because
I think she has a really uniqueperspective in going from
Google to a smaller company andthen transitioning from a UX
researcher role to a PM role andreally highlighting what the
different strengths are of thedifferent roles.
Harini (46:42):
Totally.
And I think you know what, likelistening to her fresh
perspective really kind of mademe look at our discipline in new
light, like we, there were alot of those moments where, you
know to your point, we were like, oh, we're really special
because we do all of thesethings, and in many ways it is,
it is true.
And one of the things I walkedaway with from that discussion
was about how we really shouldlean into what makes us such a
(47:06):
different and distinctdiscipline.
You know, looking through thegaps, like being the mom and the
therapist and all those otherfunctions at different points in
time, and sometimes we almostbury the lead, so to speak, like
we try to fit a certain box andtry to kind of be in service of
everyone else, when reallythere's a certain power to just
(47:27):
leaning into what makesresearchers research.
Marcos (47:31):
Yeah, totally, totally.
I did think for a while that welost you there where you're like
that's it, I'm jumping ship,I'm going to be a PM now.
I'm glad to see that you cameback into the tribe.
I was thinking about somethingthat she was saying about how
she could tell that when she wasa researcher, when she was
working with a team that wasn'tvery involved in the research
(47:54):
process either they didn'tparticipate in the planning or
they weren't present during thesessions she knew that she
wasn't going to have a lot ofimpact from that study.
Which made me think, likeoftentimes when we're, when we
join a company, when we join ateam, we're assigned like the
biggest um, biggest projects,that the highest priority for
(48:16):
the, for the, for the company,because that's where the company
sees um, the most opportunityfor research, but that's not
necessarily the, the projectswhere we would have the most
impact as researcher.
To Ashley's point, there's anopportunity for us to show our
(48:39):
impact over time by, instead ofgoing through the highest
priority projects, is going tothe, working with the teams that
are most eager to work with us,that are most willing to adapt
their processes to incorporateresearch, and through successive
engagements like that we canbegin to show like, hey, when
(49:01):
you modify your ways of workingto allow for user research, this
is the outcomes that you canhave.
Allow for user research, thisis the outcomes that you can
have, and over time we can havesome more organizational buy-in
to then get change at thosehigher, more impactful projects.
Harini (49:22):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and you know, in
addition to that, I think youknow part of again, coming back
to that superpower, part of itis providing insights to things
people aren't thinking about yet, but that you are right.
So maybe it's not a questionthat's top of mind for anybody
else, but you know that down theroad it will be, or it should
(49:43):
be, and sometimes that's justenough reason to pursue it.
I mean all this to say it wasreally refreshing to hear from
Ashley both sides of the table,right, like what it's like being
in the thick of being aresearcher and then what it's
like with that transition and,from the PM side of the things,
how a researcher is perceivedand valued and the challenges.
(50:06):
So I think that was a reallykind of interesting take.
Marcos (50:09):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.
Well, I'm excited.
I think our very firstinterview went very well.
Harini (50:21):
And I'm looking forward to seeing who else we can
convince to talk to us.
Me, too, I'm curious, you know,as I'm also somebody who comes
(50:45):
from a family that has a verytraditional you know career
background and then I kind ofchose this path.
I'm curious, you know, thoseBuzzFeed memes where this is
what I actually do, this is whatmy family thinks I do Like.
How would your family describeor think of what you do as a
researcher?
Ashley (51:03):
That's a good question.
Yeah, they had no idea, no ideawhatsoever what user experience
meant.
Yeah, they probably.
I think they just honestlythink in the tech world we have
so much fun because for themthey never have budget for team
(51:24):
events.
If they get free peanut butterin the kitchen at the hospital,
that's like a huge, big deal.
Meanwhile, at Google, theseother companies we get amazing
free lunches, dinners, breakfast.
So I distinctly remember themsaying you know, we get peanut
butter sometimes and you getthese gourmet meals.
(51:46):
So they, yeah, it's such adifferent profession.
And so they, yeah, it's such adifferent profession.
My earpod fell out.
No, such a different profession.
Actually.
And my favorite team offsiteever was the one Marcos planned
at Get your Guide, which wasthis epic team offsite where he
told the entire UX team to showup at the airport at 5 am, I
(52:10):
think, and we had no idea wherewe were going.
And then we flew to Finland forthe day on EasyJet and came
back and he had planned thisreally fun, fun day with
activities.
So that's still the best teamevent I've ever done.
Nice, Marcos.
Harini (52:27):
Way to step it up.
Marcos (52:30):
That was so much fun planning that and keeping it
secret from everyone because wehad a team.
How big was the team then?
It was probably like 15, like adozen designers, researchers
and UX writers.
Ashley (52:41):
Yeah, I think it was about that much.
Marcos (52:45):
Yeah, from all over.
Harini (52:47):
So you were literally like bring your passports and
show up at the airport.
Marcos (52:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
It was actually kind of achallenge because we had people
from.
We had a couple of people fromthe U?
S I think you and me were theonly or and and Amanda were the
only people from the U?
S, but then you have peoplefrom all over the all over
Europe and all over the world.
So trying to find the one placewhere everyone could travel
without needing a visa was likethis huge spreadsheet of like,
(53:16):
and it ended up being.
Helsinki was one of the placesthat we could fly relatively
quickly, because that was aboutI don't know an hour hour flight
from Berlin at the time.
Well, it still is an hourflight from Berlin.
Harini (53:32):
I'm also just so impressed that all those people
showed up with those crypticinstructions.
They must really trust you.
Marcos (53:37):
Yeah, yeah, I'm surprised that one yeah people
willingly showed up and thateverybody was on time and nobody
missed the flight.
Ashley (53:46):
Yeah, nice.
I still remember the emailsubject line was go to hell, dot
, dot, dot helsinki oh yeah, oh,puns travel, puns are the best.
It's a really tough job being a researcher.
The more Ashley keeps talking,I'm like should I be trying to
be a PM?
Why are we doing this toourselves?
Marcos (00:11):
Mass exodus from the field.
Thanks, Ashley.
Ashley (00:16):
Join the dark side with me.
Marcos (00:31):
Welcome to User Experience Research Confidential
a podcast by user experienceresearchers for user experience
researchers, about userexperience research.
My name is Marcus Enyo and I ama user experience researcher
with 25 years of experience inthe industry.
Harini (00:48):
And I'm Harini Chandrasekhar, a researcher with
over 20 years experience acrossa variety of industries,
including tech.
Marcos (00:56):
Well, this is exciting.
This is our pilot episode ofthis podcast and hopefully we'll
have many conversations withinteresting user researchers
that can provide our audiencewith some perspective and some
insights on this field.
Harini (01:12):
Yeah, we're really excited to share this concept
with you and really excited tokick off our first one.
Marcos (01:21):
We had a really good conversation with a user
experience researcher whotransitioned into the PM role
and it was really interestinghearing her journey through user
research and also the insightsthat she had having worked in
both sides of that relationship.
Harini (01:38):
Let's do this.
Marcos (01:39):
Okay, and with that, let's listen to the interview.
And with that, let's listen tothe interview.
I'm very excited to have ourfirst guest on our pilot episode
of our podcast.
Ashley R, would you like to sayyour last name or do you want
to keep it more confidential?
Let's keep it confidential.
(02:03):
Protect the participant data.
Yes, exactly yeah, pii, wewe'll keep it confidential.
Yes, exactly yeah, pii, we gotto keep that confidential, cool.
So Ashley is a former userexperience researcher who
transitioned to a PM role, andshe's also a former Californian
who's transitioned to living inEurope, in Germany and
Switzerland.
So welcome to the show, ashley.
(02:26):
We're very happy you could joinus today.
Ashley (02:29):
Thank you Really.
Really happy to be here as well.
Marcos (02:32):
All right.
So what's a typical day likefor you?
Ashley (02:37):
A day in the life?
Good question.
So I, as you mentioned, I'mfrom California originally and I
moved to Berlin where I workedwith you at Get your Guide, an
e-commerce travel website andapp, and I recently moved to
Switzerland a year and a halfago and also, at the same time,
(02:59):
made the transition to be aproduct manager.
So I like to say I moved overto the dark side, into the PM
world and a day in the life alot of meetings, writing
documents and then, when I'm notdoing the PM job, exploring
Zurich, skiing, spending as muchtime in nature as I can.
Marcos (03:22):
How did you get to user experience research?
Ashley (03:27):
So my background started at UC San Diego.
I studied cognitive science andI was really lucky because I
had some great mentors comingout of that program that had
ties to the Bay Area andindustry roles.
When I was studying cognitivescience, I actually wanted to
study animal cognition and so Iwas doing research studying
(03:50):
elephant and dolphin cognition.
My mission was to prove to theworld how smart animals were,
and then I quickly realized thatthe idea of sitting in a lab
just studying at the time it wasvideo recordings of these
animals, lab just studying atthe time it was video recordings
of these animals was not for me.
It felt very isolating andlonely and slow.
(04:13):
And at the time in my programthere were some human-computer
interaction classes, verycollaborative, doing exciting
things like building web apps,and the first web app I built
with my team was it was calledBeach Bum and it was the idea
was video cameras to see howbusy the beaches in San Diego
were.
So that was the original ideawhere it all started.
Marcos (04:35):
So you finished school, and what was the next step for
you then?
Ashley (04:40):
The next step.
I went to a yoga class back inthe Bay Area as I was applying
for jobs and met the former headof UX from Google, who was a
yoga teacher and also working ata VC.
And then she put me in touchwith some of her coworkers who
(05:02):
still worked at Google and I wasapplying to many different
companies in the UX space.
I wasn't sure if I wanteddesign or research, and so very
lucky to end up at Google tolearn from such amazing
researchers.
I think any big company is sucha great starting point to learn
and really understand bestpractices.
(05:23):
To learn and really understandbest practices and then
eventually realized bigcompanies were not my thing and
so switched over to a startup,and I've actually been there
ever since.
So yeah, coming up on fiveyears, I get your guide.
Harini (05:39):
I'm curious too about, like you said, you were deciding
between design and research.
You know, like you could havegone in either direction, like
what made you choose researchgood question.
Ashley (05:52):
So, yeah, when I was in in class in university it was it
was a very fluid like therewasn't a clear division between
design and research.
I knew I wanted to do somethingin UX and the other thing was I
had a background doing thisanimal research from before,
because I thought I originallywanted to continue that career
(06:14):
path and potentially go intoacademia, and so it just made
sense, at least for my first job.
I could tell a better storywhen interviewing with my
research background.
So it came down to honestlywhat I could get my first job in
.
But I'm really happy I stuckwith research because I think
it's a much better fit thandesign.
I don't think I'd be a gooddesigner.
Harini (06:36):
It's awesome.
I mean, it's funny.
I can relate so much to yourstory because it's a similar
path for me and I actually endedup switching from design to
research for those reasons.
So I fully, I get it.
Marcos (06:49):
And what kind of, without breaking NDA?
What kind of work did you do atGoogle?
Ashley (06:54):
I was originally working on a voice application for a
smartwatch.
It was a very experimentalproject that left Google X and
then that we weren't able tovalidate product market fit and
so it actually spun down theclassic technology looking for a
problem rather than technologysolving a problem.
(07:16):
And then I ended up moving mostof my time on the Google Play
team, which was kind of a bootcamp.
I spent most of my time on theGoogle Play team, which was kind
of a boot camp I like to thinkabout.
It was such a high pressure,very high performing team which
(07:38):
was again great to learn,understand best practices, learn
from really strong researchers.
And then I moved over to thecomms team, which was also very
fun, a really reallycollaborative environment.
Fun, a really reallycollaborative environment.
But then, with Google, therewas a lot of reorgs happening
and and ultimately my heart wastelling me to move to Europe,
and so I ended up moving toEurope.
Marcos (07:54):
Reminds me of a conversation that we had like a
long time ago, where you'rementioning the that still.
Google, like any other company,does an internal survey of its
employees and just trackemployee satisfaction and things
that could be improved upon,and one thing that you mentioned
that I thought was reallyinteresting was that the user
(08:17):
experience researchers had alower job satisfaction score
than other maybe engineers, alsodesigners even.
Why do you think that is?
What is it about our roles thatleads to dissatisfaction?
Ashley (08:38):
I would it's.
It's a great question.
I would love to hear both ofyour points of view on this as
well.
I believe research is like oiland water with industry.
It felt every time I didresearch, both at Google and Get
your Guide the only twocompanies I've done research
there was so many externalpressures that made it really
(09:00):
hard to do research the timepressure, the pressure to come
up with results, because if youthink about research, we don't
ever know what the results willbe.
But of course, especially whenpeople are putting a lot of
money behind it, they expectresults and often there's biases
at play.
You know product managers,designers, executives trying to
(09:22):
bias the results, productmanagers, designers, executives
trying to bias the results,trying to skew the presentation.
So I really feel like researchis oil and water when it comes
to industry and I think it's soimportant.
But I do find it's reallychallenging to combat all of
those things.
Harini (09:39):
As a product manager.
Now, how, if at all, has thatperspective changed, like, do
you still see it the same way,or do you have like, is it the
same with product managers, ordo you find it's a completely
different relationship?
Ashley (09:52):
So with product managers , I, when I stepped into this
role, I dropped two levels and Iwent from a lead researcher to
an associate product manager andI was paid a lot less, lower
job title and yet I stillmanagers do have more say, more
voice and it's they don't haveto fight for a seat at the table
(10:31):
, whereas with research it feltlike it was constantly fighting
for a seat at the table.
And what I think is reallyvaluable about research that was
a PM like.
I still really, really value itand I actually don't have a
dedicated researcher that I canwork with, so I miss that so
much.
But I definitely think there isa place for research and it is
(10:54):
very important that companieshave it, and it could be the
misunderstanding of how to workwith research.
You know, I think with teams ingeneral, in tech teams, you
have all these differentfunctions trying to work
together that have completelydifferent incentives and goals,
and it makes for a reallychallenging environment but also
(11:16):
great results can come from it.
Harini (11:19):
Yeah, I mean that's interesting.
I think competing goals is atrue concern and it's a true
challenge.
But I also sometimes wonder if,like researchers kind of come
from more of an area of passion.
Like you know, looking acrossresearchers at least I work with
and even my own like backgroundand how I relate to it, it's
like less about you know, Idon't know, I don't even know
(11:41):
how to frame this, but it's muchmore about like you find so
much of yourself invested in,like the problems you're solving
and the people whose voice youare, you know, and like you take
that kind of personally andyou're like what do you mean?
Like people are saying this youknow I'm not the one saying this
and like why is nobody takingthat seriously?
And it starts to become likelike you kind of see yourself as
(12:03):
this champion of the voice of,like you know, users which I
think is really different fromany other function Right, like
most other functions have likeless emotion in some sense
attached to it.
It's like you code or you youknow, identify, like the
business strategy or thebusiness opportunity, and you
(12:25):
triangulate, like thesedifferent business signals to
get you there.
But I feel like there'ssomething about research and I
don't know, maybe I'm alone inthis that is inherently more
emotional and like passion, andyou know it requires like more
empathy, like in general interms of soft skills, and I feel
(12:46):
like there's something aboutthat melting pot of those things
that make things sometimes feelmore personal than maybe it
should be.
Ashley (12:56):
It's so important that that emotional aspect gets
brought to other team members.
And I remember one of thebiggest indicators of if a study
would be successful or not whenI was running research is if
the stakeholders actually sawthe data firsthand, so in an
interview, if they actuallyobserved the interview.
If no one observed myinterviews, or very few, I was
(13:18):
like, okay, this study it's notgoing to go well, and um and so
as a PM, what I've noticed iswe're incentivized to think in
very high level, kind ofstatistics Um, if things have
small reach, we we have todiscard it and it completely
takes the emotion and empathyout of the problems we're
(13:40):
solving, which is not a good wayto work.
I think it's really importantto have that very close tie to
the customers, the empathy.
So that's what I'm reallymissing right now in my job
because I don't get to workclosely with a researcher.
There's not one allocated to mygroup yet.
Marcos (13:59):
Yet, yeah, yeah, it's interesting like hearing both of
you describe this, thissituation.
It's, on one hand, we have this, like you said, like this
empathy and this affinity torepresent the voice of the, of
the user, and then, when we takethat to the teams, and if it's,
if it aligns to something thatthey already had a hunch about
(14:21):
or they had a belief, thefeedback often is like well, we
knew that already, even though,like well, you didn't know it,
you thought that might have beenthe case.
Now we confirm that.
But there's pushback, like no,no, no, you didn't discover
anything new.
But then when you come up withsomething that is counter to
(14:43):
their ideas, or something thatnew, there's pushback because it
resets their understanding ofthe condition that they're
trying to address.
So it's kind of like thispush-pull that they're trying to
address.
Ashley (15:01):
So it's kind of like this push-pull Right.
Both are losing paths.
They either don't think thatthey learned anything new or
they don't believe the resultsbecause it doesn't validate what
they already thought.
So it's, I think, to me.
I really felt that struggle andI know there are ways to work
around it and great researcherswill, but I felt that
frustration as a researcher.
Harini (15:22):
Totally.
I think we can all relate tothat right on some level.
And to make things morecomplicated, especially in like
larger companies, it's also hardto humanize the user
perspective because you got toanonymize, you got to like blur
faces perspective.
Because you got to anonymize,you got to like blur faces.
You can't, like there's so manykind of guardrails around
representing the voice of thatuser or users, and that makes it
(15:49):
challenging too because, likeyou really want, like you said,
like when people hear itfirsthand, it's a very different
experience than seeing, likesomething in a deck or a dock,
and it gets increasingly harderand harder to bring you know,
truly bring it to life in a deckor a dock, and it gets
increasingly harder and harderto bring you know, truly bring
it to life in a way that can beimmersive and empathetic and
bringing people along.
So that's also part of thechallenge.
Like I feel like in many wayswe're kind of between a rock and
(16:10):
a hard place, where we'retrying to represent the voice of
the user and that's the job,but it often, to Marcos's point,
either counters or contradicts,like where the business wants
to go, and then there's allthese competing goals and you're
trying to kind of, you know,like juggle all these balls and
try to make people happy butfind middle ground.
(16:31):
And it's really sometimesreally hard to do.
Ashley (16:41):
You have to do.
It's so difficult.
I do think researchers have toplay in between all of the job
functions and collaborate thebest, have the best
communication skills.
I think researchers have waybetter communication skills than
other job functions.
Thinking about the PMsengineers, designers because
they have to.
They have to bring theirinsights to life.
They have to get people onboard stakeholder interviews to
(17:04):
align groups even beforestarting research.
So it's really challenging.
In some ways, I actually thinkit's harder than being a PM.
It's a really tough job being aresearcher.
Harini (17:16):
And the more Ashley keeps talking, I'm like should I
be trying to be a PM?
Why are we doing this toourselves?
Ashley (17:25):
Join the dark side with me.
Marcos (17:30):
Mass exodus from the field.
Thanks, Ashley.
Ashley (17:36):
Or it's like bringing the research ideas to life by
kind of influencing the industrythrough other job roles.
Marcos (17:45):
So you mentioned that there are a few years at Google,
you were done with bigcompanies and done with the Bay
Area and you wanted to make thisbig move.
What was the main motivationbehind that?
Ashley (18:03):
I had always had a desire to move abroad to Europe.
My mom is from Canada, my dadis American, so I think I always
had a little bit of aninternational leaning.
I studied abroad one summer fora month and a half when I was
in university in Berlin, had anamazing time summer in Berlin
and I think that really stuckwith me and so I thought I would
(18:27):
move to Europe for a year, kindof taking a break, needed a
reset after being in a burnoutsituation at Google, and then
ended up really liking it anddeciding to stay for one more
year.
It's been five years and I justkeep telling myself eventually
I'll move back to the West Coastof the US because the job
market is really incredible onthe West Coast.
(18:50):
I think I'm pretty jealous ofthe job market, especially in
the tech scene in the US, somuch smaller in Europe.
But the work-life balance keepsme here the ability to travel
so easily.
Marcos (19:04):
And how was that moving from Google, I think 100,000
employees when you left in 2019,to Get your Guide that I think
had like 400 employees when youjoined.
Ashley (19:15):
It was a very big transition.
The early days of Get yourGuide were chaos, as you
remember.
So one of the biggest thingsmoving to a smaller company is
there isn't the infrastructure.
So at Google there's theresearch operations team I'm
sure many, many big companieshave that which help with
recruiting and scheduling.
(19:35):
You have access to tools.
Budget isn't a big deal.
And then I remember going fromdoing many studies in a quarter
to the reality was I think wecould only do maybe two studies
per quarter, especially if theywere bigger, because we had to
do so much more ourselves.
It took a lot longer to do therecruiting and things like that.
(19:57):
Ourselves took a lot longer todo the recruiting and things
like that.
That was definitely a big thing.
The other lesson I learned ifthe product team is not
organized, if they don't havetheir shit together, research
will not have impact, and so,again, it somehow falls on the
shoulder of the researcher tofigure out how to make the
(20:18):
product managers work better andif they're not working well or
kind of like, make up sometimesfor some of the gaps in a team,
because we have so much pressureto make sure the research has
impact and there could be manyfailure points if the product
manager isn't able to translatethe insights into action or if
(20:40):
they don't have an organizedprocess for adding things to
their roadmap.
You know, sometimes I saw thatin the early days of the company
and felt like I had to step upa lot there.
I know you did as well.
Harini (20:53):
You know, ashley, like if you could just listening to
this transition right from oneextreme to the other.
I had the opposite.
I went from like a smallstartup to a large company, so I
kind of had the reverseexperience.
I'm curious, as you, if youcould go back in time and give
yourself advice for when youwere joining the start, like the
smaller setup from Google, whatwould you tell yourself?
(21:17):
What advice would you giveyourself?
Ashley (21:20):
set up from Google.
What would you tell yourself?
What advice would you giveyourself?
I think the key advice I wouldgive myself is really taking
time to interview and make surethat the startup is the right
place, and I was willing to makesure that.
I'm willing to accept thetrade-offs of maybe not doing as
many studies, having to do moreself-service, more of the
(21:43):
processes that we're alreadytaking care of at bigger
companies.
Because she had a similar path.
She went from a very smallstartup to a big company and she
said make sure that thestartups they ask you tough
(22:03):
questions and make sure theinterview processes is very
tough, because if it's not tough, like many startups, it can be
very, very casual and that'sactually a red flag.
That's a bad sign.
It almost feels good that theinterview processes can be so
easy.
But she did say that and I dothink that was good advice and
Get your Guide did have a prettyrobust interview process.
(22:27):
But in comparison, one of myfriends the interview process
for her at one Berlin startupwas going for a coffee chat and
then having a phone chat, notreally being asked serious
questions, and then you know, ifyou know that they're not
evaluating you seriously, thenthey're probably not evaluating
other candidates seriously.
What advice would you give?
Harini (22:49):
yourself.
Yeah, that is really goodadvice.
I mean, when I transitionedfrom like a startup to a big
company, I think you know I hadno idea what I was in for and I
joined as a as the firstqualitative researcher in a
really, really technicallycomplex part of the company and
I remember telling my husband,like, if I don't get fired in
(23:11):
the next month and I figure thisout, I feel like I'm going to
be able to do anything afterthis, you know.
So that was a good feeling tosee it through.
But I think the thing that theadvice I would give is just ask
questions, you know, like don't,don't, like you have the
benefit of being that fresh eyesin the room, so I would
literally walk up to reallyseasoned tenured engineers and
(23:34):
be like, please explain this tome, like I'm five, because this
is, I don't get this, and Ifound like when I would do that
and then I would ask them like afew follow ups, oftentimes they
didn't really have a clear likereason or understanding why
something was the way it waseither.
And then that made like thatopened up a lot of rich
discussion and debate and Ifound a lot, lots of like low
(23:57):
hanging fruit to address andkind of establish like my
reputation in that space.
And then what?
Like you know, start small,grow big.
And the other advice I wouldgive is really like, at the
beginning, don't be aperfectionist.
You know like, do some scrappywork that you might not like
(24:17):
feel great about, but you'redoing it to kind of for the
greater good.
You're like learning the space,you're gaining trust, you're
doing a few things, you know, toappease your stakeholders and
kind of get a seat at the table,so to speak, so that you can do
more impactful work later, onceyou've earned that spot.
So that's kind of what I wouldprobably looking back like.
(24:41):
I think someone gave mesomething along those lines,
like similar advice, and it heldme in really good stead.
Ashley (24:47):
I love both of those, especially the one about asking
questions.
I think for me, one of thethings that I learned as a
product manager as well, is likeasking questions can be so
powerful also as a negotiationtactic, which I didn't realize.
And then I recently read somebooks and took a workshop that
the company hosted and they saidthe best negotiators ask the
(25:09):
most questions.
And it's true, because it'sexactly what you said as soon as
you start asking questions,even the people who thought they
knew something then all of asudden uncover themselves that
they don't actually know knoweverything and and it's it's
such a powerful technique.
So I really I really liked thatone and I actually at one point
(25:31):
wrote on a post-it note asklike, ask more questions, ask a
question before I say my opinion, because it's so, so powerful.
Marcos (25:39):
Yeah.
So before the advice, I thinkthat idea of like asking
questions, that can be a way ofinoculating research against
that pushback that we alreadyknew these things.
Because if you can have theseconversations before you run
this study to really map outlike the knowledge base, like
(26:01):
these are the things yes, weknow, because we have supporting
evidence versus these are somehunches or beliefs that we have
but there's actually no evidenceto support that.
But by asking questions you cankind of tease those apart and
then when you come back withfindings that can move some of
(26:22):
those hunches into the knowledgespace, then maybe that can
actually be a one of theresearchers at the company.
Ashley (26:40):
And she designed the deck so she documented
hypotheses, so she had thesestakeholder interviews,
documented what the hypothesiswas, the key, let's say three to
five hypotheses going into thestudy.
And then when she wrote thereport and presented it she
listed the hypothesis which waskind of spoken in the words of
her stakeholders and so theycouldn't easily be like, oh, I
(27:03):
already knew this, because whatthey had said was documented
very, very clearly.
And then the story she couldsay, okay, this was not
validated or here's more nuanceto what we thought we knew.
So the hypothesis and thenlearning format of the deck
worked really well.
Harini (27:24):
That's a really good tip .
I love that one, yeah, and ifthere's one thing that comes
naturally to researchers orpeople that gravitate to any you
know anything in this realm,this field, it is asking
questions Right, so it's areally easy thing to lean into,
definitely.
Marcos (27:41):
That's great because you get them on the record.
Ashley (27:43):
Exactly.
Marcos (27:46):
If I were to go back, I think it aligns with a lot of
the things both of you aresaying.
Right, it's to be scrappy and totake time to bring your
stakeholders along with you.
Because when I first joined, Iwas coming from Microsoft and
(28:08):
from Google, like these reallybig companies with really robust
research programs, and both ofthose have a very I would say,
very mature research culture.
And then going to a smallercompany that knew that they
wanted and needed user researchbut not really internalizing
(28:29):
what that would mean on aday-to-day basis and having some
of that pushback when I went tothem and be like hey, no, no,
no, we need to do it this way sothat we can do some learnings
before we rush out to buildthings.
So I was a little bitfrustrated because I was wanting
them to be at this level, likeoperating at level five, but
(28:53):
they were coming from level oneand then like being frustrated
that it took so long.
Why, why, why weren't they?
Why weren't they like justjumping up and and operating at
that higher level, but beingmore patient and taking them
from?
Okay, this is where we are now.
Let's take a little bit, a moregradual, more gradual step and
evolving that skill and thatdiscipline, rather than in one
(29:16):
big leap and expecting them tojoin me where I was walking them
through these incremental steps.
Ashley (29:22):
Which is something designers don't have to do
product managers, engineers noneof these other roles have to do
.
But what you're describing isfamiliar, where you actually
have to kind of diagnose what'swrong with how a product culture
, ux culture, is working andthen fix it.
And it goes way beyond what thescope of a research researcher
(29:47):
should be doing.
But to have impact, I do thinkwe have to play that role like
diagnose what's not working witha team, try to help fix it, if
not escalate it.
But for us to have the mostimpact, the team has to be
working well.
Harini (30:04):
It's so funny because I feel like there's so much
parallels between being a parentor being a therapist and being
a researcher.
Right, like you kind of have tostep away from the problem
space, be a bit impartial, nottake things personally, diagnose
the problem exactly as you'resaying, and then identify, like
(30:24):
why is something not resonatingor landing?
Is it like a relationshipproblem?
Is it a structural problem?
Is it a process problem?
Is it a problem of trust?
You know, and like, is it aproblem of maturity, like Marcos
brought up, and like then chipaway at it using a whole arsenal
of tools.
So similar to being a parent ora therapist in so many ways.
(30:44):
And I truly feel, after being,after becoming a mom of three
kids, I'm a much betterresearcher now, not because my
the way I research has changed,but because I fundamentally like
like identify the alignmentproblems or like how, like you
know these, these, all theseissues that surround the
(31:05):
research, and my patience for ithas grown exponentially,
because I'm like I'm going toreframe this and like think of
how would I explain this to myfour-year-old and here's how I
would approach that, and then Ibreak it down and it's.
I found it to be such a kind oflike impactful, you know
efficient way of like reframingthe problem for myself to get it
(31:27):
done.
Marcos (31:29):
So you got used to working with toddlers and that
helped you working withstakeholders across your team.
Harini (31:35):
I also have way fewer hours in a day now to make
progress and to unblock thingsright.
So I've developed this processof where is the problem and how
do I diagnose it and how do Iunblock myself in a very
structured way, similar to how Ideal with it in my personal
life, and I found that to beeffective.
Marcos (31:57):
It's my.
My wife says the same thing,right?
She says that if you want toget anything done at work, give
it to a working mom because sheain't got time to be messing
around.
Harini (32:08):
Right, she's, she's in and out and she has to, you know
, do everything that she needsto do to get done so that she
can go and, you know, be withthe family and I mean, I think
it's also it's exactly likebeing a therapist too right,
like I feel like all those softskills that we talked about
early on, like it's those skillsthat, to Ashley's point, like
(32:29):
researchers kind of need to agreater degree than many other
functions we support or workalongside, and it's both our
greatest strength and ourweakness in many ways.
Marcos (32:41):
So, after having to deal with all that for a number of
years, you got fed up anddecided to become a PM.
Is that?
Does that describe the thoughtprocess behind that transition?
Ashley (32:53):
Not, you know, not exactly.
I definitely felt thefrustration and over time,
realized that, for whateverreason for me I, you know, maybe
it was I was more unlucky withsome of the teams I ended up on,
or maybe I had less patiencethan others I ended up on, or
(33:16):
maybe I had less patients thanothers.
But I also actually wanted tomove to the PM role because I am
very motivated by impact and Ido really love the idea of
building things and launchingthings.
So, at the core, what gets mevery excited is the idea that
you know there are problems andwe as a team of engineers,
designers, researchers and PMscan help bring about
(33:37):
improvements.
And so that's what reallyexcites me.
And, you know, I think researchcan help bring about those
improvements, but I do think asa PM, you can sometimes have,
unfortunately, maybe like moreof a seat at the table to help
bring about the changes.
So that was ultimately what ledme to try out being a PM and I
was like, you know, worst casescenario I can always go back to
(33:59):
being a researcher, and thenI've learned what it's like.
And, you know, I think the moreI yeah, the more I work on
product teams, the more.
I wish that all of the for usto all rotate and have firsthand
empathy for what all of theroles are like, um, because I
(34:36):
think that would all make uswork, work together better and
and realize where, where otherpeople are coming from as they,
as they work on projects so whenyou were a researcher, how
would you define what a goodresearcher?
is when I was a researcher.
Marcos (34:56):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
Ashley (34:57):
Yeah, early out I really looked up to people who came
from academia were reallyadvocating for the rigor in
studies planning very complexstudies, rigor in studies,
planning very complex studies.
There was one very well-knownresearcher at Google at the time
(35:18):
very, very senior, originallystarted out in academia, then
moved over to Google and wasstrongly advocating for things
like not having anyone elsereally participate in the
research, especially not dosimple usability studies, and I
thought that that was what agood researcher was, and I
learned that actually the bestresearchers are people who are
(35:39):
really really like, really goodat working with other
stakeholders and bringing themalong in the journey, asking
questions, listening well,having empathy, helping teams
level up when they're notperforming well as a team,
things like that.
And it's not about doing thesexiest studies using as many
(36:03):
methods as possible.
It's kind of going back to whatyou mentioned earlier.
It's diagnosing okay, what doesthe team need now, how can I
help the team?
Maybe it's a simple usabilitystudy or maybe it's a more
complex study and then reallybringing people along and also
the other thing, having strongideas and recommendations.
(36:25):
So now that I'm a PM, I reallyvalue it when people give me
very opinionated, strongrecommendations and I remember
getting feedback when I was aresearcher that I was too
prescriptive with some of myideas, and it probably varies
from team to team.
(36:46):
Some teams don't wantprescriptive ideas.
I really love it when peoplecome to me with very specific
solutions and then we can have aconversation about it.
Um, other teams work well withhow might we use?
I think there's a variety ofways to do that, but I I really
love having really strongopinionated researchers because
it it makes the conversationeasier and as a PM I have very
(37:08):
little time, so it's it'shelpful just to kind of get to
the core of things, and that'smy journey through.
You know, starting out thinkinga researcher was great if they
had fancy titles and were veryacademic in their approach, and
I think the most successfulresearchers in industry have a
different way of working.
What about you?
(37:30):
What have you found?
What are some good qualities?
Harini (37:33):
You know, I kind of agree with you, like I feel like
there's something to be saidfor be like like the industrial,
like the environment ofindustry is so different from
the walls of like an educationalinstitute.
Right, and I I myself am kindof a self thought researcher who
came up through veryunconventional means.
This is not a career I everexpected to find myself in, but
(37:56):
here I am and I found what worksfor me is I've come from more
of a scrappy industry backgroundwhere it doesn't matter so much
to your point, like the fluffaround the thing and how, even
to some extent how rigoroussomething was, it really matters
more how actionable is theinsight and how much, what
(38:18):
change can it impact?
And then what are the risks ofgetting it right or wrong.
And, in many ways, like what Ithink makes for a good
researcher is having a widetoolkit that you really think of
as a toolkit rather than like awide toolkit that you really
think of as a toolkit ratherthan, like you know, holding
yourself really kind of too trueto any one thing, but being
like having this exploringmindset of being open to a
(38:40):
variety of things, depending on,like what it is you're trying
to do and then also beingwilling to throw a bunch of
spaghetti at a wall, see what'ssticking, what has legs, and
then kind of go from there,right.
So, if you, when I plan out mystudies, I like to plan them in
phases but I never really thinkbeyond the first phase because
(39:01):
I'm like I want the first phaseto guide what should be phase
two, three and four, because ifI go in saying these are my five
phases and this is exactly howI'm going to do it, it means I'm
not willing to learn as I kindof go from step one to what lies
ahead.
So that's kind of how I thinkabout it.
I feel like academic rigor isvalued and has a place, but it's
(39:23):
often at odds with what isreally meaningful in an industry
environment and we have to bewilling to to adapt, evolve and
really see where.
Where is their legs, likedirectionally, what should we
pursue?
Right, because, like ourmethods are, so there's so much
(39:44):
of like humanness built into it.
Like that's the same question,but depending on how it's being
framed, you're're probably goingto get a different output of
answers.
And so much as we like to thinkof research as a science, I
would say it's as much an art,if not more, and really leaning
into that, I think, is whatmakes for a good researcher.
Marcos (40:06):
Yeah, I totally agree Like this idea that letting go
of the idea that we are like ascience, right it's.
I think the best researchersare the ones that can influence
people in the way that they needto be influenced, and some
people it is okay.
When you just need to bring alot of data to bear to this
(40:27):
question, other stakeholdersmight be like no, we're going to
workshop this question andwe're going to come up with a
solution collaboratively, andothers may be, you know,
completely different way.
I think some of the biggestimpacts I've had on products and
teams it's not because I didthe right study, but I knew how
(40:48):
to present information in theway that they needed to hear it.
Harini (40:51):
Yeah, and I feel like also using and leaning into,
like what makes us unique, right, like so researchers often have
visibility into the gaps thatno other function does.
And so how do you think, beyondyour org chart or beyond, like
the space you're even assignedto, to bubble up those problems
that you see that lie in thegaps and maybe nobody else cares
(41:12):
about that problem, right, butthen see that as an opportunity,
like how can you, to your point, bubble that up in a way that
makes people want to take action?
You know, is it about, likehere is the potential loss of
business if we don't do this, orhere's the potential risk?
But really like getting otherpeople to see that problem that
you now see is powerful.
(41:33):
And I kind of feel like a goodresearcher thinks outside the
job function and the space thatthey're assigned to, to really
kind of lean into what makesresearch research.
Ashley (41:47):
So yeah, so well said.
Research, research, so yeah, sowell said.
You know, and as a PM now it'sso much of my day is focused on
just keeping things afloat,trying to spin the wheel when
things break with bugs or thingslike that, and kind of moving
quarter to quarter to achieveour impact.
And it is hard to think aboutthese, to even have the
(42:10):
emotional energy to think aboutthese bigger problems, unsolved
problems or what's between thecracks.
I think, as you said, andthat's where research could have
a lot of value if, again, thestakeholders that you're working
with are open to listening toit.
And then I guess to Marcus'spoint.
It's how you try to convincethe stakeholders, to get them to
(42:32):
see these other problems thatneed to be solved, these other
opportunities.
But researchers can add a lotof value there.
Marcos (42:39):
So, Ashley, what advice would you have for a researcher
that's looking to make thattransition to a different role?
Maybe PM?
Ashley (42:48):
I would say go for it.
I think product teams ingeneral can work.
My dream is to have everyone,at least for one week, try a
different role, and when I wasmaking the transition for PM
roles but I think for any roleit's very tricky to go to
another company to try out adifferent role.
(43:10):
So if someone is interested inmoving from research to PM or
design, analytics, engineering,it's so much easier to do it
within the same company.
But go for it, because at theend of the day, it is so
valuable to know what it's liketo be in the shoes of a
different stakeholder that youhave to work with and try to
(43:31):
convince and influence, and soeven if you realize after a few
months it's not the right thing,at least you've learned so much
from it, so it's definitelyworth it.
Yeah, I think for you comingfrom a design background and
then going into research, I'msure you're so good at
collaborating with designersbecause you know what it's like.
(43:51):
You know what frustrates them,what delights them, things like
that.
Harini (43:56):
Yeah, I love this idea of yours.
I hope it scales.
I'm all for it.
Marcos (44:03):
So, looking back at your career trajectory, it seems
like it's been defined by anumber of transitions from
Google to Get your Guide, fromthe Bay Area, to Berlin and now
to Zurich.
What is your next bigtransition?
Ashley (44:22):
I'm very passionate about the ocean and solving
ocean problems.
Going back to what I saidearlier, I thought I wanted to
prove to the world how smartanimals were, to help save
animals.
And you know, I realized noneof the existing professions
really made sense for me.
But I think my next move istrying to do something to help
(44:45):
the ocean, help the ocean.
So it could be going to anocean-related startup and
working on ocean problems, andin terms of the specifics, I
have no idea what that lookslike, but I also like the idea
of continuing to downsize, go tosmaller companies and go to the
early phases of a startup.
Harini (45:06):
Yeah, See, this is what I mean, like researchers are so
purpose-driven and passionate,right, like we pick these fields
we really, or topic areas thatwe really truly care about, and
then, like, go in.
But I just think that's howwe're wired.
Ashley (45:23):
Yeah, I hadn't thought about that, but I can see it now
that you bring it up, like wehave to care so deep.
We have to fight the fight.
Right, it's as researchers.
You know, when I was aresearcher, I always felt I was
fighting the fight, and so we do.
I think we do have to be verypassion, passion driven.
Marcos (45:43):
Cool.
Well, thank you very much,ashley, this has been very fun.
Harini (45:46):
Yes, thank you so much.
Oh, of course.
Ashley (45:48):
I loved yeah, I loved chatting with both of you and
let me know how I can help withthe podcast in any way.
Would love to support it soyeah, awesome, awesome.
Marcos (46:02):
Well, we may have you back when we start having more
issues with our.
Pm partners.
Nice Well, thanks again, and Iwill see you in Berlin.
Harini (46:09):
Sounds good.
Thank you so much, Ashley, itwas so so lovely to meet you.
Ashley (46:14):
Yeah, really lovely to meet you too.
Harini (46:14):
Thank you All right.
Ashley (46:15):
Have a good rest of your day.
Marcos (46:24):
I really enjoyed the conversation with Ashley because
I think she has a really uniqueperspective in going from
Google to a smaller company andthen transitioning from a UX
researcher role to a PM role andreally highlighting what the
different strengths are of thedifferent roles.
Harini (46:42):
Totally.
And I think you know what, likelistening to her fresh
perspective really kind of mademe look at our discipline in new
light, like we, there were alot of those moments where, you
know to your point, we were like, oh, we're really special
because we do all of thesethings, and in many ways it is,
it is true.
And one of the things I walkedaway with from that discussion
was about how we really shouldlean into what makes us such a
(47:06):
different and distinctdiscipline.
You know, looking through thegaps, like being the mom and the
therapist and all those otherfunctions at different points in
time, and sometimes we almostbury the lead, so to speak, like
we try to fit a certain box andtry to kind of be in service of
everyone else, when reallythere's a certain power to just
(47:27):
leaning into what makesresearchers research.
Marcos (47:31):
Yeah, totally, totally.
I did think for a while that welost you there where you're like
that's it, I'm jumping ship,I'm going to be a PM now.
I'm glad to see that you cameback into the tribe.
I was thinking about somethingthat she was saying about how
she could tell that when she wasa researcher, when she was
working with a team that wasn'tvery involved in the research
(47:54):
process either they didn'tparticipate in the planning or
they weren't present during thesessions she knew that she
wasn't going to have a lot ofimpact from that study.
Which made me think, likeoftentimes when we're, when we
join a company, when we join ateam, we're assigned like the
biggest um, biggest projects,that the highest priority for
(48:16):
the, for the, for the company,because that's where the company
sees um, the most opportunityfor research, but that's not
necessarily the, the projectswhere we would have the most
impact as researcher.
To Ashley's point, there's anopportunity for us to show our
(48:39):
impact over time by, instead ofgoing through the highest
priority projects, is going tothe, working with the teams that
are most eager to work with us,that are most willing to adapt
their processes to incorporateresearch, and through successive
engagements like that we canbegin to show like, hey, when
(49:01):
you modify your ways of workingto allow for user research, this
is the outcomes that you canhave.
Allow for user research, thisis the outcomes that you can
have, and over time we can havesome more organizational buy-in
to then get change at thosehigher, more impactful projects.
Harini (49:22):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and you know, in
addition to that, I think youknow part of again, coming back
to that superpower, part of itis providing insights to things
people aren't thinking about yet, but that you are right.
So maybe it's not a questionthat's top of mind for anybody
else, but you know that down theroad it will be, or it should
(49:43):
be, and sometimes that's justenough reason to pursue it.
I mean all this to say it wasreally refreshing to hear from
Ashley both sides of the table,right, like what it's like being
in the thick of being aresearcher and then what it's
like with that transition and,from the PM side of the things,
how a researcher is perceivedand valued and the challenges.
(50:06):
So I think that was a reallykind of interesting take.
Marcos (50:09):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.
Well, I'm excited.
I think our very firstinterview went very well.
Harini (50:21):
And I'm looking forward to seeing who else we can
convince to talk to us.
Me, too, I'm curious, you know,as I'm also somebody who comes
(50:45):
from a family that has a verytraditional you know career
background and then I kind ofchose this path.
I'm curious, you know, thoseBuzzFeed memes where this is
what I actually do, this is whatmy family thinks I do Like.
How would your family describeor think of what you do as a
researcher?
Ashley (51:03):
That's a good question.
Yeah, they had no idea, no ideawhatsoever what user experience
meant.
Yeah, they probably.
I think they just honestlythink in the tech world we have
so much fun because for themthey never have budget for team
(51:24):
events.
If they get free peanut butterin the kitchen at the hospital,
that's like a huge, big deal.
Meanwhile, at Google, theseother companies we get amazing
free lunches, dinners, breakfast.
So I distinctly remember themsaying you know, we get peanut
butter sometimes and you getthese gourmet meals.
(51:46):
So they, yeah, it's such adifferent profession.
And so they, yeah, it's such adifferent profession.
My earpod fell out.
No, such a different profession.
Actually.
And my favorite team offsiteever was the one Marcos planned
at Get your Guide, which wasthis epic team offsite where he
told the entire UX team to showup at the airport at 5 am, I
(52:10):
think, and we had no idea wherewe were going.
And then we flew to Finland forthe day on EasyJet and came
back and he had planned thisreally fun, fun day with
activities.
So that's still the best teamevent I've ever done.
Nice, Marcos.
Harini (52:27):
Way to step it up.
Marcos (52:30):
That was so much fun planning that and keeping it
secret from everyone because wehad a team.
How big was the team then?
It was probably like 15, like adozen designers, researchers
and UX writers.
Ashley (52:41):
Yeah, I think it was about that much.
Marcos (52:45):
Yeah, from all over.
Harini (52:47):
So you were literally like bring your passports and
show up at the airport.
Marcos (52:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
It was actually kind of achallenge because we had people
from.
We had a couple of people fromthe U?
S I think you and me were theonly or and and Amanda were the
only people from the U?
S, but then you have peoplefrom all over the all over
Europe and all over the world.
So trying to find the one placewhere everyone could travel
without needing a visa was likethis huge spreadsheet of like,
(53:16):
and it ended up being.
Helsinki was one of the placesthat we could fly relatively
quickly, because that was aboutI don't know an hour hour flight
from Berlin at the time.
Well, it still is an hourflight from Berlin.
Harini (53:32):
I'm also just so impressed that all those people
showed up with those crypticinstructions.
They must really trust you.
Marcos (53:37):
Yeah, yeah, I'm surprised that one yeah people
willingly showed up and thateverybody was on time and nobody
missed the flight.
Ashley (53:46):
Yeah, nice.
I still remember the emailsubject line was go to hell, dot
, dot, dot helsinki oh yeah, oh,puns travel, puns are the best.
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