Too Queer to be Christian... too Christian to be Queer - Episode 46 - Kate Bridal & Chloe Milligan - Vanesstradiol

Episode Transcript
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Vanessa (00:00):
Oh yeah, this I guess has kind of like made it
explicit too. So if you drop anF bomb it's not a big deal.

Transcending Humanity (00:06):
Fan fucking ethic. Yeah.

Vanessa (00:09):
I mean I don't know what your particular preferences
are on that but just so youknow, you don't have to hold
back if you don't want to. Soanyways vocal training let's get
it going. Oh, yeah, I have to dothis intro right

Transcending Humanity (00:29):
< Vanessa enables the chipmunk voice on
her microphone, gibberish ensues>

Vanessa (00:55):
sorry, I had that I had to do that. I love it. Yeah. I
installed the software for mymic on my computer which turns
out that has software Yeah, andyou didn't do the things like
that so I should get

Kate Bridal (01:07):
that because we have the same mic

Vanessa (01:09):
Yeah, it's that you can also like really play with the
settings under Mike tail solike, really get in like you can
record your voice and thenlisten to it back to hear like
oh, how your different settingsare working. It's very handy.
Oh,

okay. Yeah, I do.

Chloe (01:25):
I do this is it. i Can you still hear me? I can hear
you. Okay, perfect. Because Ijust don't want my mic like
taking up the whole thing. Oh,

yeah. No, it's gonna be pretty sensitive. And
if you have like a gain settingon it if there's like a gain
button or knob at all yeah, ifyou turn that up and move it
further away from yourself,it'll be good too. But I can't
hear any difference like in thevolume Yeah,

Vanessa (01:46):
you sound fine. Yay. By the way all this stays in the
episode

fascinating behind the scenes talk about our mics

Vanessa (01:55):
I yeah, I do not do much editing on the episodes one
to keep it real to such asfucking time consuming and I
have a life yeah, anyways,welcome back transcending
humanity This is episode 46 I'mVanessa Joy aka but Australia
the girl that is here and just areminder the views and opinions

(02:17):
of those hosts guests whateveron the show are their own in
other people's so theiremployers? Whatever don't go
after them. Yeah. This week, Iam joined by Chloe Milligan do
club again. Is it you like

Chloe (02:37):
it's Chloe Anna. That's just my middle name

Vanessa (02:42):
okay. I didn't know if you went with that too. So
Chloe, Mel again. And Katebridal. You probably remember
Kate as she is the head host orco host Headhouse co host of
legal burnouts. Sure. Yeah,sure. Whatever. Lash creator
whatever. Yeah. And she is alsoHannibal Lecter is girlfriend.

(03:03):
If you are into that kind ofthing.

Chloe (03:08):
You can look around, okay, you must know Hannibal.

Vanessa (03:12):
Yeah, you can look her up on Tik Tok, Instagram, all
that shit. So it's a lot of fun.
And so today I have beenfollowing Chloe on Instagram for
quite a while. And just kind ofI'm interested in the story that
she has to tell as manylisteners this show. No, I am a

(03:34):
very anti religion atheist. ButI also recognize that many
listeners for the show do notnecessarily line up with my
views on that kind of thing. AndI am very big, despite being
anti religion. I'm more I'm moreanti pushing religion on other
people. I think everybody shouldhave whatever belief system that

(03:57):
guides them. And as long as itdoesn't fuck with someone else
so. So I thought it was time tohave a different perspective
than angry grouchy atheistsVanessa, and we have Chloe here
who is a leftist Christian and Ibrought Kate and the co host

(04:20):
because Kate specializes inburnout stuff in I figured the
two of them could probably havesome pretty amazing
conversations about what it'slike being a trans leftists
Christian parent, in theprofessional world in the US. So
yeah, here we are. I'm gonnastart off Kate, can you do a

(04:42):
quick introduction of yourselfand we'll go Chloe, and then
we'll get started.

Sure. So I am Kate bridle as As Vanessa mentioned,
I am a sis hat lady just hererocking out on the ally train.
That was great. So stupid Ididn't know everything about
whatthat would actually be that's

(05:09):
kind of giving me a content ideaof like the overenthusiastic
ally like just being like reallyannoying like

Chloe (05:21):
in my experience the overtake the Allies normally a
trans egg through

Vanessa (05:29):
Felicia.

Chloe (05:30):
Oh my god

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Anyway, as Vanessa mentioned, I do co host and co
founded the podcast illegalburnouts, which is started about
burnout in the legal industry,specifically, but we are now
branching out to talk aboutburnout in all kinds of
different things. So we love totalk about societal issues. And
definitely, I think that Chloestory has some elements that

(06:31):
could definitely lead to somepretty heavy burnout. So I'm
excited to talk about that andjump into it. And then yes, I do
make silly videos, where Ipretend to be in a relationship
with Hannibal Lecter and kind ofMilgram because we can't we
can't kick will out of theequation or everyone would,
right? So bridal party of fiveInstagram Tik Tok, check it out.

Vanessa (06:52):
There you go. Slowly give us a two minute rundown on
who you are.

Chloe (06:58):
You got it? Yes. So I am Chloe Milligan. I go by Chloe
Anna Milligan on my socials.
Mostly just because, you know, Ireally liked my name. I picked
it out myself. So my biocurrently says I am a professor
at Penn State Berks. That needsto be updated. I actually

(07:20):
literally just left and I am onthe market looking for another
job. Just a long story aboutlike, you know, if you've
noticed anything in the newsabout a lot of universities are
doing financial restructuringkind of movements to cut
personnel, cut departments, cutmajors. And at the campus, I was

(07:46):
at our major writing and digitalmedia. It's not cut yet that we
know of. But it is potentiallyup for elimination. And so Penn
State in working to solve theirbudgetary woes offered a set of

(08:09):
voluntary initiative severancepackage to pretty much you know,
hey, if you want to help us savesome money, you can just resign
for us. And so, right now, I amsitting. Yeah, right now I'm

(08:31):
sitting on one one year salarylump sum to help me find another
job. So you know, it's not a baddeal. It's just, I'm currently
in that season of uncertainty.
My you know, I am a collegeprofessor though I would
consider myself one still wantto be one. My backgrounds in

(08:54):
English but my research is inmedia studies, particularly
video games from a queer theory,clear theoretical approach. And,
yes, so three degrees inEnglish. Nothing I do looks very
much like English. Anything andyou know, outside of that I have

(09:18):
a wife of nine years andcounting a five year old
daughter. I've been out publiclysince October of 21. And yeah,
you know, like my bio says, I ama leftist Christian. And, you

(09:38):
know, you throw Trans and Queerinto the mix and it just feels
like a whole grab bag ofoxymorons.

Vanessa (09:45):
That's pretty epic.
That's you and I actually cameup with it around the same time
because I came out in October of21 as well. Oh, wow. about it.
Yeah. I started my medicaltransition on November 4 of 21.
So I'm sorry, 22. So we'retwinsies here.

Wow, there you go.
But also, I'm like, are we justgonna talk about video games for
like, the next hour? Because I'mbound to do that as well.

Vanessa (10:12):
I mean, everything else I

know, I'm really not the goal.

Chloe (10:17):
But I could I couldn't go for an hour.

Vanessa (10:19):
I think that we should dedicate some time to that,
because it's kind offascinating. Um, it's something
I didn't realize. So a couplethings a business I forgot to
do. Because I always forget toshout at the Patreon patrons.
Shout out to our buddy bears.
Andrea and Elena is that Elena?
Hopefully, Elena, and I'm doingthat right. And then we have our

(10:42):
other patrons Kenzi. Lucy,Lindsey and Dana, thank you all
so much for your support.
Everybody else? Why are you notsubscribing to the show? It's
only split five bucks. Yeah. Andit would go a long way because
it shouldn't cost me like $250 amonth. Really? Podcasting

is expensive.
People don't understand that butat the people and it is hard to
make money at that was somethingthat I did not know when I
started mine. I was like, Well,I'm just gonna make this into a
job, right? No,

Vanessa (11:16):
no. So that's why I'm trying to hawk my goods. And
Assistant means bag. Here's onein her saying, branded on the
back. Love it to put all of yourinjectables for estrogen or
testosterone or diabetes,whatever. I only know by us one

(11:37):
diabetic but one anti systemmeans as before last time you
saw the t shirt, I'm stillwaiting on the mug because USPS
sucks. Yeah, think about someother things too. So, merch
shop, link in the description,yada yada, yada, buy some shit.
Because if somebody goes to meif the advertised prices on
everything, so anyways. So let'sget started. Key year, the

(12:04):
burnout experts so

let's go easy there. I do a podcast about
burnout for a year with a cohost who is burnout experts. So
I've absorbed some Yes, but Igot I got some some experience
in it, I guess. Yes. And it's

Vanessa (12:21):
good to burnout expert by proxy. So I'm going to kind
of throw out some topics andthen we you too, can just bounce
back and forth on it. What doyou think? All right, Pinky.
It's funny, I'm very sexual, butI, I talk corny all the time,

(12:41):
whatever. Anyways, so I'm kindof opening up, Chloe, tell us
about we should the, I'm gonnahave to cut this part out
because my brain just broke.
Tell us about how, like when youcame out, and like the

(13:03):
complications, and both good andbad things that might have
happened on the level of yourface, upon coming out, because I
imagine that was kind of a big,shocker moment to a lot of
people.

Chloe (13:23):
Yeah, um, so my story I found out, in some ways is not
unique. I came out, I would sayto myself, during the height of
the pandemic, you know, mynormal routines, and therefore
normal coping mechanisms anddistractions, were all stripped

(13:46):
away. And so it was just me andmy thoughts. And so, around the
same time, I finally took theleap to start depression
medication. And the way Idescribe it is it felt like I
had a jigsaw puzzle without thepieces without the picture. And

(14:08):
medication finally gave me thepicture to start piecing things
together. And I realizedsomething that I had been
playing with on a veryhypothetical, like, you know,
what if I know Oh, I wish I wereno, you know, all of that

(14:29):
finally, coalesced and sort ofcrystallized into you know, you
could just transition if youwanted to, right. And it was
terrifying, and it wasliberating and it has ultimately
been, you know, to me and to myfamily a net good. But it

(14:54):
definitely did come withcomplications, especially when
you factor in not just the factthat I was raised. Very
fundamentalist Christian. But Istill want wanted and want to be

(15:15):
a very different type ofimportant disclosure, a very
different type of Christiantoday, like, you know, it's
still important to me is still apiece of my identity. The model
I was raised with I really nolonger I hate the phrase, but I
can't afford it. I don'tidentify with I don't identify

(15:38):
as a fundamentalist Christian.
True. Yeah. But I'd rather be anattack helicopter. But But But
yeah, so, you know, I have to Idon't know how active she is on
social media anymore. But I haveto give a shout out to Natalie

(15:58):
Drew, who? When I was veryactive on Twitter, before it
became X, and I finally feltlike that was my time to, you
know, peace out.

I also included at that time, yes,

Chloe (16:14):
I joke that Twitter. I joke that Twitter is now my ex.
Ah, nice. But But yeah, so whenI was very active on Twitter, I
reached out to Natalie drew whohad sort of, just by a few
months on me kind of lead byexample, saying like, Hey, I am
a Christian, and I'm a transwoman. And she posted a lot

(16:36):
about her experiences. And Ikept finding parallels and you
know, kept and kept, you know,off, off line IRL kept finding
all of my own, you know, scarycoincidences, and finally
reached out to her via DM, andwas just like, hey, if I feel
all these things, am I a transwoman? And, you know, she was

(17:00):
very diplomatic to say, like, Icannot diagnose anyone. But it
sure sounds a lot like myexperience. And so, you know,
we're not like, in constantcontact, but I will always be
grateful to her as kind of likea trans mom. And so, you know,

(17:20):
outside of outside of tellingher and working through that
with her. The next person I hadto tell was my wife. And I
phrased it to her by saying likehim, because I was terrified to
tell her, I was gonna say, like,Hey, I think I am trans. But I
love you more than anything. Andif you don't want me to

(17:42):
transition, I just won't aim.
And she was like, that's crazy.
I couldn't not let you do that.
So, you know, we talked about,like, is there a life after our
marriage for like, literally aday? And, and then determine,
like, no, that's not like, wedid say, till death do us part.

(18:07):
We do still choose each other.
And, you know, she's just kindof like, written along and
rocked with me for every step ofmy transition sense. And I I
cannot overstate enough how muchI love her. And she also came

(18:28):
from a very fundamentalistChristian tradition. So you
know, and we've, we went to aChristian college. So like, the,
the air we breathe, the water weswam in, in a lot of ways was
very, very Christian. Okay, ofcourse, the complication there

(18:54):
is you know, and you know, forour benefit, I would say is,
it's not like we were comingstraight from you know, like
Maga fundamentalism to likeleftist, you know, afterlife
paradise or something. Yeah.
2016 did a lot of thatdeconstruction for us. You know,
I would say we both started toshift leftward after the 2016

(19:16):
election during the 2016election. It's embarrassing to
admit, but I was so politically,you know, on minded, circa 2015
That I was like, I don't know, Ilike Bernie Sanders. And I like
Marco Rubio. And lookout actlike that's, that's such an

(19:39):
absurd position. And 2016 reallykind of crystallized for me
like, Oh, wow. Yeah. Like, thisis my political ethos. And
everything I thought before wasjust like political tourism. I
had no idea what I was talkingabout. It's it's time to like,
you know, get Real and so youknow that time period like 1620,

(20:02):
before actually coming out likethat was, that was my
radicalization also probably nota very unique story. But, but
important to my journey forsure. So, you know, we've done a
lot of the disappointing ourparents were already in coming
out coming out as moredemocratic than progressive,

(20:25):
then I'm more so likely thanAshley, my wife to say, like,
straight up leftist. But youknow, it's definitely where we
would where we found ourselvesand you know, where we were, we
consider ourselves on thepolitical spectrum now. So, I'm

(20:45):
going to, I'm going to jump outbecause I feel like I've been
talking for a little while. Butyeah, so that's just the
beginning part of like, raisedvery religious, started to do
the deconstruction work fromlike, 2016 Onward. And then came

(21:06):
out as trans and it just all goteven more complicated.

And so when you were you answered this a little
bit already, but were so wereyou and your wife both still
like very Fundamentalist by2016? Or have you already
started edging away in any way?
Or was it like 2016? Was the themoment and then you found Did
you find like a new church? Orlike, what how did you? What did
you end up doing around that?

Chloe (21:35):
That's a really good question. And a helpful part for
me to, I guess, kind of clarify,like, my big moment was starting
grad school. I started gradschool, when I was 22, fresh out
of college. And at my Christiancollege, I was considered

(21:55):
liberal. Okay, and like the bar,there was so low, like, don't
get me wrong. But like, I wasconsidered liberal and at, I
went to Clemson for my Masters,and found out pretty quickly
like, oh, there's a ton of shit,I don't know. And so I would say

(22:17):
that, as far as identifying withmy parents, and the tradition, I
was raised in as identifyingwith that fundamentalist faith,
I was straying from the fold, asearly as like, you know,
probably probably high school.
But it was, it was 20, age 22onwards, that like, all of the

(22:39):
ways that I thought, like, Oh, Iam very liberal and enlightened,
like, I found out over those,you know, from like, 12 to 16.
That was when I kind of startedto figure out like, oh, I, I
don't consider myself likefundamentalist in any way. But I
also need to learn a lot morebefore I opened my mouth again.

(23:00):
And so in 2016, you know, reallykind of like rocketed that
trajectory forward. Yeah. Yeah.
That

Vanessa (23:11):
was a year.

Sure, was getting.
Yeah, I mean, I even did a lotof learning around that time,
too. And I was, you know, mykind of like, I was not raised
in any kind of religion. I wasactually raised in one of the
few non religious households ina very religious small town in
Minnesota. So that was kind ofan interesting, yeah, dynamic.
And my parents weren'tnecessarily anti religion. I
think my mom was a little bitanti Catholic. She was raised

(23:34):
Catholic, she was not a fan. Butshe mainly in like, the feminist
aspects of it. And so I wasraised in a super like, Catholic
Lutheran town. So I got like,experiences, like I went to
church with friends and stuff.
So that was not what was kind ofrestraining me and like my

(23:59):
liberalism. But you know, I'mwhite. And I was raised in a
small town, and my dad was acop. So I felt very safe around
police all the time. Like, therewere a lot of issues that I was
just completely ignorant about.
And I had done some of that onlearning by 2016. And I was kind
of in a like, obnoxious phase oflike, Ally ship as far as like,

(24:20):
racial ally ship of being. Yeah,the overenthusiastic ally, who
also is like, but you teach meright, like, it's like it was
bad. So I think that a lot ofpeople like in 2016, it just
kind of opened their eyes. And Iwasn't really surprised by
Trump, because honestly, I grewup around a lot of the people

(24:41):
that I was like, Oh, I knowexactly. Who's voting for this
dude. Like you. I wish it hadshocked me a little more. I knew
I had friends who were very,very shocked by it. And I wasn't
on that element. But just thelearning that I did. And I was
also in law school at the time.
And so I was doing a lot oflearning about the criminal
justice system. And a lot ofunlearning about things that I

(25:03):
thought about, you know, stuffworked. So I think I think 2016
was a transformative time for alot of people. And a lot of
people especially like me, who,you know, had had been existing
in a lot of privilege and justnot forced to look at a lot of
the problems that were going on.
So, I feel it's

Vanessa (25:22):
the news from Lake Wobegon or all the women are
strong and men are good looking,and the children are

above fantastic Minnesota reference.

Vanessa (25:30):
When you say threatens Catholics Oh, yeah, so at a
small town I'm like, where tofocus Garrison Keillor.

He was oh, yeah, we stuff my dad. He's still listed.
Listen, Garrison Keillor too.
Heavy Rotation. Yeah, he said

Chloe (25:43):
he's canceled now. Right?
Yeah. So it was he was to metoo. Yeah.

Yeah, that figures I got a lot of got a lot of

Vanessa (25:54):
that one upset me too, because I grew up with. I grew
up listening to Bill Cosby, too.
So yeah.

The Onion was really mean during me too. And
one day, they put up a headlinethat was like Tom Hanks accused
and I was like, come on, and Iclicked on it. And it was like,
of being the nicest guy inHollywood knows like you mother.
Buckers. How dare you try. I'mactually more of a Colin Hanks
fan but I would have that wouldhave been traumatizing. Do I

(26:20):
take? Thank you.

Chloe (26:27):
Yes, it's funny when you talk about like, you know, the
Catholic Lutheran variety, likewhen I tell you and again, like
I just feel like I need to doall that like sort of disclosure
disclaimer work. Like, this iswhat how I was raised. But this
is what I thought. And you know,I'm not saying it was great, but
at least it wasn't. When I wasin eighth grade, I started I

(26:51):
dated this you know? I mean,yeah, I guess like, Hot Topic
poster girl basically. Because Imean, let's be real, every,
every guy who is of a sort oflike, milquetoast preppy
variety, who has a real, whichwas me. You know, who has a real

(27:15):
like, hankerin for goth, Emo badgirls. He was really, it was
really just my way of beinglike, I wish I wear a goth emo
bed. And so, but anyway,

Vanessa (27:28):
I started a little further

Chloe (27:31):
in exactly. But I started dating her and y'all like, it
was so important to me thatlike, Hey, Are you Christian?
And she was like, I mean, I wasraised Catholic. And I was like,
okay, because that's the onlyway we can date is that you're a
Christian. Which again, justlike, it's one, it's so

(27:53):
embarrassing. Look back on thattime period.

Vanessa (27:56):
I was like I said, Yeah, I'd

say that's very common. Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe (28:01):
But but when I tell you, I came back to my dad with it.
And I was like, Yeah, I'm datingthis girl. Her name is Sarah
denona. And he goes, is sheChristian? And I said, Yes,
she's Catholic. And he goes,That's not Christian. Well,
yeah, it's because there is a,there's a very fervent I don't

(28:25):
know if that's a minoritycontingent of evangelicals who
think that Catholics aren't evenChristians. And so, which, you
know, again, like to most sanepeople, when you consider that
the Roman Catholic Churchrepresents, like, the majority
of Christianity in the wholeworld, right? That's that sounds
bonkers. But that's the that'show I was raised. And I was

(28:48):
like, but even then, in terms oflike, knowing what I was raised
to believe, versus what I wascoming to believe myself, I was
like, that's crazy dad. So, youknow, again, like the bars on
the floor. These aren't exactlylike, you know, super
impressive. bonafides but thatwas that was the flavor of

(29:12):
evangelicalism that I was raisedin very fundamentalist, very, I
mean, the denomination I wasraised in was called what's
called Pentecostal Holiness. Soyou know, standards real high.
Sounds for a very big move.
Yeah.

Yeah. And so what have are your parents still
fully in it? Like are they stillfundamentalist or have they? How
has that relationship beenaffected by a moving four letter
word and be coming out?

Chloe (29:47):
Yeah, I'm very much still in it. And I think it just
depends on like, how, how theyparsed that out for themselves
in In terms of like, relating tome as their child, my, my mom
told me when I came out, youknow, first thing she said was,

(30:12):
we love you, and you will alwaysbe our child. And that right
there was already kind of thefirst move, or it's like, oh,
she didn't say, Son. Yeah. And,but then the next sentence was
like, but we will never agree onthis politically or religiously.
And so it's better if we justnever talk about it. You know,

(30:33):
which is, which is a huge chunkof my entire self that we just
don't get to talk about. Well,um, but, you know, it's, it's
interesting. She does things tothis day that like, you know,
Pratchett just really impressedme. Um, you know, in terms of

(30:55):
like, you know, the, I keepsaying the bars on the bars on
the floor, but like, she, sheworked hard to call me Chloe.
She corrects herself when shemiss genders me. Amazing. She,
you know, when I was when wewere kids, one of her best
friends made our whole familylike, personalized embroidered

(31:21):
like Christmas stockings withour names sewed in tow. Yeah.
And when I came out, my mom'ssewed a name badge over the old
name that says, Chloe. Like,that's sweet. Right?

Let you know, that's a big like,

Chloe (31:41):
I know, right? Like she she got she and my sister bond
over like Celtic jewelry. And myfirst Christmas being out, she
got me like the Celtic knotnecklace. And so like, she's
doing the tiny steps that like,show me that she, at the very

(32:04):
least, she's trying and sheloves me and she wants to. She
wants to show me love as, as whoI am. My dad has a different
story. She does not. He does notuse my correct name or correct

(32:26):
pronouns. She is creative aboutit, though. Because the way he
make sure not to directly deadname me or offend me so to
speak. He just doesn't refer tome at all. So, you know, he'll
tell my brother, like, yeah,dead name was just saying, but

(32:51):
he won't say hey, dead name. Hejust doesn't refer to me at all.
So if if I approach him, we'lltalk. If I hug him, we'll hug.
But my, we were literally juston a family vacation. And we
were at a restaurant where mywife ended up being set a couple

(33:12):
of seats down for me because wehave some zeri eager nieces who
love to see their cool ants. Oh,yeah. And so she was sitting
closer to my dad than I was. Andso I could hear him. And he was
saying, you know, dead name hehim. And my wife said, Chloe,

(33:34):
she her. It was correcting him.
And he said, I don't care aboutthat stuff. Greatly does. And
so,

but like you don't hear them? How hard is it to
just do it? Exactly.

Chloe (33:48):
And you know, in my best friend, since like, ninth grade,
I was telling her about that.
And she was like, oh, then youjust don't care about your
child. And like, you know, ifyou don't care about that stuff,
like that stuff is her. Yeah.
And so I don't know what kind ofconversations my parents have
behind closed doors about me andwhat name they use, but my mom

(34:14):
does the, you know, on her inher small way, she does the
work. And my dad doesn't try itall. And our relationship has
pretty much it's pretty muchatrophied beyond anything, you
know, surface levelperformative. Yeah. It

Vanessa (34:35):
sounds like your mom actually, is, she's probably
fighting this huge internalbattle to between the dogma that
she's been programmed with forso long. And the reality of
trans people exist, and it's nota choice. We're here and it

(34:57):
sounds like she's unpacking thatand but it has to be very, very,
very hard, because it's like anexistential battle within
herself. But I'm proud of herfor that. It's an era. That's
huge, but it really is. It showsthat people can change. So yeah,

(35:20):
that's yeah, it's gettinggoosebumps when you're telling.
Yes, yes.

Chloe (35:23):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the kind of thing where
like, I want more from myparents in, in the ways that a
lot of people want more fromtheir parents, especially when
you add in the religious trauma,upbringing aspect. But I have,
but I recognize what my mom isdoing. And it's something that I

(35:48):
will, that I that I work hardnot to take for granted,
because, you know, I see herdoing what I'm doing more than
she ever has to because my daddoes doesn't do anything.

And feel free to say, I don't want to answer
this. But how about with yourwife's parents? Like two things?
Have things been affected withthat relationship there? And if
you don't want to answer feelfree to say no, no, no, it's
not. Yes.

Chloe (36:13):
Okay. Yeah, that's okay.
My, that's a complicatedsituation, just because my wife
is an only child. And so, myparents are pretty even outside
of all of this complicatedstuff. Even if I was the poster
child, for everything perfectthey ever wanted to see in their

(36:33):
child. My parents are justpretty emotionally withholding.
You know, they, they're not thetype to reach out. You know,
they kind of expect like, well,I raised you, you call me, you
know, like, and, you know, whichis the flavor of Boomer that,
like, you know, people regularlymake fun of on tick tock. And,

(36:57):
but, so that's its own thing.
But like my wife, her parentsare obsessed with her. One of
them calls her every day, if notboth of them. Wow. And so And
Iris, you know, as of, as of nowat least, and we're debating on

(37:20):
if that will ever change. Irishas an only child. And so not
only are they obsessed withAshley, they are obsessed with
Iris.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my grandchild big who? Oh,

Chloe (37:31):
absolutely. And so that aspect of the relationship is
strong. But I have functionallycease to exist. And it's not for
my wife's lack of trying. Shetalks about me often. She, you

(37:52):
know, she, she mentions me, sheadvocates for me. She talks back
if they ever say anythingnegative about me. But like, I
just, I don't get invited tothings anymore. And we tried the
whole like, well, you know what,I'll just come over to the house
anyway. You know, like, they'remy inlaws. And before this, our

(38:16):
relationship was perfectly fine.
And they were very nice to me.
And I actually, you know, for alot of the reasons I was just
talking about in terms of like,how much they love their kid, I
really appreciated that morethan my own parents could do.
But, you know, again, if we'reranking parents here, my mom's
doing the best because like, asfar as my in laws are concerned,
I have vanished. Which is, yeah,which really hurts because,

(38:42):
like, you know, it's already sadto no longer be there. In their,
their daughter in law in anyfunctional sense. But also like
50% of irises me. Yeah. And, andthat, that they just, they just
do their best to ignore that.

Vanessa (39:03):
It's hard to like you hear that story from a lot of
people to not trying to diminishyour story. And it's like, they
were fine with your pretransition. When now, after
you've come out and well intoyour transition, and you're
comfortable and happy. It's Ijust don't understand that

(39:28):
you're just seeing person you'rejust now a complete person.
Yeah, I wish people couldunderstand that.

Chloe (39:38):
Yeah, my my wife really gave it to her but one time she
was on the phone with her mom.
And and mind you this was postsurgery. She said sometimes i is
interesting because she used mycorrect name. But she said
sometimes I still pray ThatChloe will change her mind. And,

(40:00):
you know, let's just let's justsidebar the fact that it's like,
it's a bit late for that. But,you know, on the most
irreversible, anatomical bodilylevel possible, but also like,
you know, my wife was like, veryquick to say, like, Mom, you

(40:20):
can't say that, like, you know,because you're saying you don't
want my wife to exist. And solike, and so like, she was
pretty quick to shut it down.
And you know, again in thatlike, classic, emotionally

(40:41):
immature inability, inability tohandle conflict move, she just
got incredibly quiet and waitedtill they change the subject.
So, you know, like, growth can'thappen. And without some sort of
conflict, and every, every sideof the family just says their
best to completely avoid allforms of conflict by completely

(41:03):
avoiding

me. Wow, well, your wife sounds like a stone cold,
badass first.

Vanessa (41:12):
Office,

Chloe (41:14):
queen, queen of my heart in so many ways.

And I'm really interested to hear a little more
about like, what that was like,for the two of you when you came
out? Because I mean, it soundslike she was amazing, and
extremely supportive. But Iimagine that was also she had a
lot of stuff of her own to kindof figure out and deal with as
well. I mean, did she considerherself straight before you came

(41:39):
out here? And like, what is her?
Yeah, so like, what was that?
Like for the two of you and forher? Right?

Chloe (41:46):
Yeah, she, she had a bit of a it's an unavoidable fun,
transition herself in that wholejourney. Because like, first,
she, like, cried for a wholeday. You know, just like,
absolute like, bucketing tears.
And it's tough because like,it's that situation where like,

(42:11):
you can't be like, Oh, Baby,don't cry, like, have a crush.
You should like, of course, youshould cry. This makes total
sense. And there's nothing I cando about it could do about it.
And, you know, she had a reallyhard time with it for the first
few days. And then I think, toher detriment, um, she kind of,
you know, she she's aware of,you know, the ally Train Choo

(42:37):
choo.
Like, she knew the socialscript, to a degree where she
was like, okay, you know, splashyour face with cold water. I
have to be the most supportivewife that ever supported. And,

(42:58):
and she did like, she helped meshaved my legs. She like, you
know, taught me how to.

Yeah, so learning.
I still fuck it up way toooften.

Chloe (43:11):
Yeah. Speaking occurs those damn knees. Oh,

for me, it's my ankle. Every time I there's a
spot on my ankle bone that I cutway so many times. And for
whatever reason, there must belike a vein or something there
because it never is. It does notstop bleeding. It's so good.

Chloe (43:28):
Yeah, I think the best description I ever heard of
shaving your face, like you knowshaving your face when when
describing that to someone whodoesn't have to do it. It says
Imagine if your legs were justbowled me that's how it feels to
shave your face. But, butanyway, she, you know, she told
me to put my hair up. She boughtme my first outfits. You know,

(43:51):
she was she was doing all theright things. But But then,
like, our bounce around smallstuff. In conversations like she
would just absolutely break downbecause she was not confronting
like, oh, actually, this isincredibly hard for me. And so

(44:12):
you know, I was already seeingoutside of like my gender
affirming peer teen like I wasseeing a therapist who
specialized in transition andtransitional issues. And she had
been in therapy on and offherself for different reasons.
But she found a LGBTQ focusedtherapist to work on her side of

(44:35):
things. We went into marriagecounseling to work on this
specific aspect of like metransitioning and our marriage
transitioning and it's toughbecause like she's not nearly as
plugged in to like extremelyonline spaces as I am and
honestly good for her sometimesa joke, right? Yeah, but, but

(44:56):
you know, I see so muchdiscourse about around like, you
know, No, sis, people aren'tallowed to say like that they're
they're mourning a loss, youknow, because you should be
celebrating this like the personor who they're becoming. And
it's like, and I think on paper,that sounds, that sounds like

(45:17):
the correct response to be thebest ally possible. But it's so
much messier than that, and somuch more complicated than that.
And so like, not only did I haveto, like kind of allow her,
Ashley had to allow herself tomourn the loss of her husband.

(45:37):
And, you know, it, she said,like, it feels like you're
dying. And, you know, it's kindof, it's hard to hear that, but
it's also like, it's not, itwould have been so damaging and
put us so much farther back. IfI had said, you can't say that.

(45:59):
Well, thank you. Like, that'snot how you're supposed to feel,
because that's not how feelingswork. And so she has been, you
know, my strongest advocate,she's an absolute warrior, on my
behalf, and I love her for it.
But like, it was not easy for.

(46:21):
And she, she had to confront alot of like, feelings within
herself of I want to be sosupportive, and I am so sad
about this. Yeah. And, you know,and that makes sense. But like,
on on this side of it, ourmarriage is stronger than ever.
Where I would say we're more inlove. You know, I'm able to

(46:43):
bring 100% of myself, in a way Inever could before. Yeah, so you
know, we're better for it. Butit was, it was, it was a lot
messier than people want it tosound like, you know, oh, my
partner transition Good thingI'm bisexual. Right? Yeah. You

(47:03):
know, like, I, you know, shedefinitely considered herself
fully straight before. And Ithink for a while, like, she she
had a friend that she reachedout to is actually, Natalie
Drew, who I mentioned earlier,her wife, Heather, reached out
to Ashley and they connectedover the aspect of like,

(47:26):
transitioning from the spousesperspective, that was really
great. Yeah. Awesome. And, and,and Heather told her like, you
know, I, when nothing elsematters, I just tell myself that
I'm Natalie sexual. That's Yes.
And I learned so like, yeah. Andso like, I think Ashley, for her
part, like, she's, she's muchmore willing to like, own up

(47:50):
like, yeah, you know, like, ifyou made me, if you made me pick
a label, I'm bisexual. Right?
But like, at the at the veryleast, and the most I need is
that, you know, she's glowysexual. I

love that. Yeah.
Well, and it's all a spectrum,like, for her in that, you know,
no one lands necessarily solidlyon one spot. But

Vanessa (48:20):
your story is actually pretty rare one relationship
that survived that. And that's atestament to both of you.
Really. It's she fell in lovewith the person and yeah. But
she obviously had to do a wholelot of unpacking. And it's
amazing that she did. Yeah. Andyeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's

(48:42):
wonderful to see it and see thatyour family is, you know, still
a cohesive unit. And shouldn'tbe parents. I see. I hit
question that Yeah. So I imagineyou probably had to find a new

(49:03):
church.

Chloe (49:05):
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that question too. Yeah.

Vanessa (49:08):
Yeah. How did that go?
And what advice do you have forother people to help find more
accepting place of worship?

Chloe (49:21):
Great. Yeah. So that's, that's an interesting, yeah.
Because I can't answer anyquestion quickly. That's an
interesting question to mebecause like, I, we were
attending before I came out achurch in the vineyard
denomination, which was kind oflike, you know, it's pretty

(49:45):
evangelical by tradition, butthey did a really good job of
branding themselves as like, youknow, yeah. We're like
evangelicals, but we're reallyhippy about it. And you know,
when you pair that with the megachurch, um, Uh, you know, kind
of mentality of like, as long aswe don't talk about any serious
issues which which force us toclarify our position.

(50:08):
Everybody's welcome Jesus lovesyou. You know, don't worry about
that let's get coffee sometime.
So, you know, we were a part ofthe vineyard church that we
started to attend, when we wereliving in Gainesville, Florida
while I was doing my PhD at us.

(50:28):
And that church was, you know,again, it was, it was pretty,
like centrist leaning left. AndI didn't realize until because
we had, like, you know, queerpeople attending church with us.
I didn't even realize that thevineyard was not an affirming

(50:50):
denomination, until like, threeyears after going there. Because
I just thought it you know, onpaper, and like, you know, in
practice, it seemed like wewere, but I realized, but I
found out that like, you know,the pastoral staff may have felt
one way but like, the officialvineyard stance, is very anti.
Um, and so, but the vineyard isa weird denomination, because

(51:14):
there's a lot of churches thatbecause it kind of, you know, as
a donation is centrist, leaningleft in some ways. You know,
there's a lot of vineyardchurches that you know, look
purple. And you know, you'veheard of a purple church, like,
you know, a mixture of red, likereds leaning people in blue to

(51:34):
the meeting people here. And so,when we moved to Pennsylvania,
for the job at Penn State Berks,I just departed, we found
another vineyard church, and itfelt similar, and we were really
liking that vibe. But then Istarted to kind of pick up on
that undercurrent of like, thisplace is a lot more conservative

(51:56):
than the vineyard we wereattending in Gainesville. And I,
I don't know how comfortable Iam with that, you know,
especially like, the, during the2020. election, and, and also
just like the the absolutecultural, you know, seismic
shift brought on by the murderof George Floyd, I really did

(52:20):
not like the way that the churchhandled the murder of George
Floyd from the pulpit, I reallydid not like the way the way it
handled both sides ism with, youknow, like, oh, Democrats are
just as bad. It's like, look, Iunderstand that, like, it's a
corrupt two party system. Andthere's a lot of complicated

(52:40):
conversations we can have aboutthat way. You don't get to say
that, you know, the people onone side who have stances you
disagree with are the same asthe people who were like, What
is fascism? Trying

to overthrow our government?

Chloe (52:59):
Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, but they're both just as bad another
conversation, but you know, oh,my God, what

a lot more like putting people's lives at risk
than the other. And sometimes,in a lot of ways, absolutely.
Democrats do their fair shareabout in some ways as well, but

Chloe (53:16):
so true. But I, I was very close. We were we were both
very close with the pastor andhis wife, they were both like,
you know, mid 30s, like we areslash were. And we, I wanted to
do it, right. When I came out,like, Hey, I'm coming out

(53:40):
publicly, in October, I wantedyou to know, because I know that
the official vineyard stance isthis, but like, we as members of
your church, like, still want tobe a part of this church body.
But you know, we don't want tobe treated like second class

(54:00):
citizens, and looking back. Iregret that stance. Because I
know that like, I did not leavethe the church structure of
like, you know, affirming lightthat I had been a part of, until
it was my skin in the game. AndI regret that I had been queasy

(54:26):
with it for a while. Even beforeI ever thought that I was
allowed to identify as part ofthe LGBTQ you know, spectrum or
whatever. However, I'm gonnaphrase it mafia. Yeah, Alphabet
mafia. I had been queasy withthat for a while, but I just but

(54:48):
I still kept doing it. And Iwanted the especially because we
moved out of Pennsylvania withno family support. Not like our
families were like unsupportive,but I'm just saying like, no, no
one He lives out there whenbadly. Yeah. And so like that
church was like, the only senseof normalcy I felt like we had.

(55:09):
And so we wanted to remain inthat congregation. As long as we
could be treated like people whomatter just as much. And I, I
play the drums. I have since Ihave for over 20 years now, and
I play. Yeah. And I've playeddrums for worship band contexts

(55:33):
and church services for a longtime. And so I play drums at
that church, like two to threetimes a month. And I said, like,
listen, I know that one of thecommon tactics that evangelical
churches do in situations likethese is they say, you're
welcome to attend. But now youcan no longer serve. You know,
which is icky. Loving you, yes,yeah. Loving Vanessa, stay

(55:57):
straight there. But I said, Ibasically was like, very
upfront, I'm begging you, if youwant me to remain at this church
do not do that. And, and theyhad said, you know, what felt
like all the right things up tothat point, like, you know,
we've been praying that, like,you know, we'd find another

(56:17):
drummer because like, we were,like, doing without for a while,
like, and you're you guys are,it's so great. And then like,
you know, it's like, do youreally need me that much. If
it's like, I can, I'mimmediately expendable, because
what ended up happening. And,you know, you could dedicate
another an hour just to this. Weended up happening was the
pastor's wife took us out fordrinks and appetizers at a local

(56:43):
restaurant pub that we reallyenjoy. You know, got us beers.
We shared an appetizer, and theyjust sort of like, you know,
tell us how it's been goingtelling your family tell us how
you're doing. And, you know, wewere saying like, yeah, this
this is this journey is, ispretty painful. So far, like,

(57:03):
parents are acting like thisfamilies, this, you know, like,
we're struggling with this. Andthey just kept saying, like,
that sounds so hard, I have somuch compassion for you in this
situation. And then the pastor'swife had to go to the bathroom,
you know, obviously made it,it's a girls trip. We, the three

(57:27):
of us get back to the table. Andimmediately, the vibe shifts.
And the pastor says, I imagineyou want to know what we've
decided on, you know, thesituation here at hand, you
know, like, I can remember howthey phrased it. But like, I
imagine you want to know what'sgoing on. Because when we told
them, they said, like, you know,thank you for bringing this to

(57:48):
us, we're gonna prayerfullyconsider this for a little while
before we like can make adecision. And like, they said,
pretty much verbatim, you arewelcomed to keep attending, but
you are no longer allowed toserve in any sort of leadership
capacity. And I knew I knew thatwhat happened, and I begged them
right to do that, and it stillhappened. And so like, it was

(58:15):
especially insulting to Ashleybecause she worked in the
children's church ministry. Likeshe she has her degree in early
childhood education. And theywere like, you know, you can't
work with the kids anymore. Andshe was like, you can't tell me
that I'm not allowed to workwith children, because I know
what you're implying. And, andso like, Y'all, it was so

(58:39):
uncomfortable. They said, like,you know, we prayed about it.
And we considered like, whatwould it look like for us to do
this and what it looked like forthem to do this, and like, you
know, we have to stick by ourconvictions and, you know, make
this decision. And when they didthat, and when, when, like, we
began to react to it, theystarted crying. So, they started

(59:02):
crying. And they're like, youknow, we and because we're like,
Yeah, we're gonna leave andthey're, like, we imagined you
would say that, and we're sosorry to hear it and like, so
they're crying. So, we ended upcounseling them through how to
break up with us, basically. So,you know, the, the emotional

(59:23):
labor of that situation orbalance or whatever, was
completely flipped. And so,like, it was we parted on like
a, you know, wishy washy, wehugged, we said, you know, maybe
we'll still see you around, wenever saw them again. You know,

(59:46):
and I thought that like theconversation went as well as it
could, you know, because I waslike, because again, like, all
of my chance to emote in thatsituation was completely robbed.
Because we were taking care ofthem. And so, you know, Ashley
was like, Are you sure you'reokay? I was like, Yeah, I think
I am, I assure you, okay. Andthen the next morning, you know,

(01:00:08):
at this time Iris was not eventhree. She said something that
toddlers do. Like, no, I don't,I don't want Maddie in here. And
you can we can talk about Maddiein just a little bit. But, and
like, you know, kids are goingto be good are going to be kids.
And I burst into tears. Becauseall the emotions that had been

(01:00:31):
holding in from the day forfinally came out. Yeah. So yes,
we had to find a new church. Wedid not attend any type of
church for at least I would sayat least a couple of months. We
started shopping around I hatethat phrase, but, you know, the

(01:00:53):
American capitalist marketplace.
But the issue is, and this isthis is gonna sound really
bizarre, especially if you'renot like, up on religious
culture or whatever. The problemis, is that, like, I was raised
in a denomination that, youknow, was really big on worship,
really big on like, big band,school out, you know, like,

(01:01:16):
praise rock concert kind ofshit. And, you know, even if
that's corny, even if, you know,like, it's easy to make fun of,
it's the model that I was mostcomfortable with. Gal and I
attended Catholic mass. When Iwas a teenager, I went with a
friend and oh my god, it waslike, it was glacially boring to
me. And so when you

Kate Bridal (01:01:40):
have to know all the stuff, you have to know what
to say back and then theychanged it. I know, John Mulaney
did a bit about this. But like,I went to a friend's Catholic
wedding, like a few years ago,and I was in the bridal party.
And I was like, Well, I've gotthis I used to go all the time.
And the first thing they saidwas something you'd like to use
me with you and I was like, andalso with Wait, what? With your

(01:02:04):
spirit now or something and Iwas just like crap, they changed
it on me. And so I literally hadlike the bridesmaid next to be
like pulling on my arm and likemaking me sit down and stand up
like the right times. Theyswapped it all up. Anyway,
sorry. Oh, my God.

Chloe (01:02:19):
But, but yeah, so like, we tried the I don't know if
y'all know. But there's adenomination called the
ecumenical Catholic communion,which is actually Catholicism.
But they're fully affirming. Oh,

Vanessa (01:02:34):
Susan. Wow.

Chloe (01:02:37):
Sure, exactly. It's, yeah. Love that ruins. And so we
tried going there. And it was itwas weird and boring for us. We
tried United Church of Christ,and I loved the theology of the
United Church of Christ. It wasweird and boring. For us. We
tried to Presbyterian Church isweird and boring for us. And so

(01:02:59):
like, it's a, it's anunfortunate truism that like,
the more like hit, and rock inthe atmosphere is usually the
shittier the theology is, hmm.
And so we have to find a churchin our area that had actually
just recently is not that I'm anactual church. They had just

(01:03:21):
recently made the decision tobecome fully affirming and over
half the congregation left. Butthey stayed strong. We started
attending in November of 21. No,is that? I don't remember the
timeline is Oh, yeah. Well seeyou because I, I started coming

(01:03:42):
out locally, in the summer of21. But I didn't come out
publicly for everyone to knowuntil October. But anyway, so
November 21, we startedattending there. We've been
there ever since it is a moreevangelical flavored church with
a fully affirming theology.

(01:04:06):
Actual queer people on thepastoral staff. Nice, you know,
I don't know if this is anotherconversation to get into at the
time we ever meaning butsurprisingly, racially diverse,
which is another thing that alot of evangelical spaces
struggle with, or don't startwith, you know, because like,
write a check. Yeah. And so

the way they're not struggling with it, it's just
not happening. Yeah.

Chloe (01:04:34):
It's transformed design.
It's on purpose. Yep. Yeah. Buta friend of mine, at the church,
she was also a trans woman asshe calls it, our unicorn
church. Because you know, it, ithas the kind of like vibe that I
was raised to be comfortablewith. And the theology that
makes me feel like I actuallybelong and, and the space Nice

(01:04:56):
to disagree and the space to sitin Tao and the like, you know,
one of the one of the pastoralstaff is actually agnostic. And
so, you know, it's it for For usit is a very good space. I think

(01:05:17):
I've been thinking about thisand even preparing for this
conversation that I think theissue with being female ever
heard of the, you know, like,Oh, she's a pygmy girl, or, you
know, yeah. I think it's, it'stough, and it's easy to make fun
of, I've seen lots of TiC TOCsdoing just this, like, you know,

(01:05:39):
you can talk about pygmyChristians. You know, like,
it's, it's understandably alittle easy to satirize that,
like, Oh, we're Christians, butwe're not like a regular
Christian. We're like a coolChristian. But like it is. So I
don't mean to say like, a littlebit for me, but it's, it's the

(01:05:59):
tough thing about being a transChristian, or even just a queer
Christian in general is, formost people, you are too queer
to be Christian. And for a lotof other people, you are too
Christian to be clear. Oh, soyou know, it's like, you know,
there's really, there's nopleasing most people because

(01:06:21):
it's like, oh, you're Christian,that's great. Oh, you're clear.
You're not really a Christian,you're going to hell. Huge
disclaimer, disclosure, whateverthe phrase is, it is very
possible to be a Christian notbelieving how do you not believe
in how I'm a Universalist?
Anyway, moving on. It's just ahuge part of the theology that
like, immediately people arelike you, but you believe people

(01:06:41):
are gonna burn in hell for alleternity. It's like, no, no, I
don't

Vanessa (01:06:46):
know if it's mentioned in the Bible, if I'm not
mistaken. Yeah,

Chloe (01:06:49):
it's, it's, it's mentioned, every time it's
mentioned, it's actuallytranslates as get henna, which
is a whole other conversation.
And then there's the there's thepardon book of revelation about
the lake of fire. But the bookof Revelation is actually a
highly poetic text about, like,you know, like St. John's pop,
apocalyptic vision about theRoman Empire, it's not a

(01:07:10):
blueprint for the apocalypse.
So, you know, if you want totalk more about that as a whole
other conversation, but Butanyway, you know, it's like,
cool, you think you're aChristian, but you're queer, but
like, you know, for suchunderstandable reasons, and I do

(01:07:32):
not want to invalidate or talkover anyone's absolute right to
religious trauma, or just likeideological disagreement that
says, No, I do not want to be apart of this, you cannot make me
sick. Of course, I'm not goingto push that on you. Um,
especially if you have religioustrauma that stems directly from
your identity, why would I say,oh, but my church is different.

(01:07:54):
Check it out, right? Um, youknow, like, that's, that's,
like, you know, if someone is,and this is a shitty analogy,
I'm stumbling into making forsome reason, you know, if
someone's like an alcoholic, youcan't say, oh, but our bar is
different, like, you know, thedrinks aren't as strong. Right
now. So like, I get that. And,but like, I saw one of the, one

(01:08:18):
of the, like, Facebook, liketrans meme groups, I'm on
shared, they shared some, youknow, is a screenshot of a tweet
about like, what, like, God'spurpose with trans people, and
someone just shared this andsaid, like, I think this is a
really beautiful thought. Andthe comments got so negative, so

(01:08:39):
fast, like, I think that, youknow, very quickly, like, I
don't think we that would that,you know, any concept of God
deserves any sort of browniepoints, because, you know, for
seeing trans people differently,because, you know, religion has
done this, and a religion hasdone this, or religion has done
this, and et cetera, et cetera,et cetera. And these are all
things that I can't really saylike, no, ah, but like, it's

(01:09:01):
also so much messier and so muchmore complex than, you know,
saying, like, this thing's badand you're bad for liking it, I
guess. Yeah. It's really thorny,and it sort of feels like a lose
lose to advocate for it in someways. Yeah.

I do have one more question. But Vanessa, I don't
want to monopolize because thisis your show. And I bet no, no,
you're fine.

Vanessa (01:09:35):
Chloe has to go in like five minutes, though.

I know. I know. And I feel like I haven't gotten any

Chloe (01:09:40):
I can push it. I can push it a little longer and push it a
little. Okay. Yes.

Vanessa (01:09:44):
And this week, though?
Yeah.

I was just like, I haven't really brought in any
burnout talk. That's the reason,but that's probably

Transcending Humanity (01:09:52):
Yeah.
Sorry.

Chloe (01:09:55):
Shut up. No, no.

No, it's been a fantastic conversation. Should I
don't think anyone's reallyupset about the lack of
productive talk. But I amcurious about how, you know, a
lot of the things that you'vealready talked about have been
like, I'm like, burnt out vibes,like crying over something
that's not actually the thingthat you're upset about, that

(01:10:18):
happens a ton in burnout,because you're just emotionally
raw all of the time. And you'reusually I feel like actually
often a lot of times able tokeep it together for the stuff
that's burning you out. And it'severything else that kind of
suffers and that you startgetting really sensitive over.
That's how I was. Because you'relike, the thing that's burning
you out, oftentimes this work,but you're like, I gotta keep my

(01:10:40):
shit together to make money. Buteven many other things can burn
you out. And so I I'm curiousabout how if you experienced,
you know, exhaustion burnout, asa result of having to reconcile,
you know, this identity of yourswith your religion, and or how

(01:11:02):
has finding a new church andfinding an affirming church
maybe helped you fight burnoutin some aspects?

Chloe (01:11:12):
Yeah. Um, and I don't, this isn't a way to dodge the
question. But like, I can say,in terms of like, burnout, it
100% affected my job. Like, youknow, I was what's called a
tenure track professor. Yeah.
And so, you know, not only is itmy job to teach, it's my job to

(01:11:32):
research. And, you know, publishand serve on academic committees
for the good of the university,and all that kind of stuff. And
whatever qualms I have with thejob I just had, you know, which
is another conversation, I haveto go to bat for the community I

(01:11:53):
found at Penn State Berks,because they were a bajillion
percent supportive of mytransition. And so I was up for
what's called two year review.
You know, because like, you gettenure after six years, and the

(01:12:16):
Penn State model is you do a twoyear review to basically be
like, Okay, what you're doing isgood. So far, keep it up. The
four year review is where theygo. Okay, so this is good, but
if you, but if you don't dothis, you won't get tenure, or
whatever. Like, you know, it's,it's the harsher review. And
then the six year is the bigshow, do you get tenure or not?

(01:12:39):
And so my second year review wasalready my third year review,
because they offered a COVIDextension. You know, like,
because of COVID. They werelike, Yeah, everyone gets a year
added to their tenure clock. Butwhen it was time, for my third
year to year review, it wasactually my my Dean, who
suggested that I request to stayof tenure. So instead, which

(01:13:04):
means that I actually got aanother year added to my tenure
clock, because, you know, shewas like, you know, you're
starting hormone therapy, you'recoming out. You know, like,
you're dealing with a lot ofsocial upheaval right now. View
can't do that. And this,

so very insightful of her too. Yeah.

Chloe (01:13:26):
Yeah, actually. Yeah. So yeah, the burnout was strong at
work. As far as, you know,finding the finding a new church
and leaving the church frombefore, like, yes, the religious
aspect absolutely contributed tojust like, the burnout of being
a person. Yeah, and, you know,that's why we didn't attend any

(01:13:52):
type of church for at least amonth or two. And getting back
out there, you know, was waskind of tentative. And but I
will say that, like, even if,even if it's not always easy,
again, just to like the personin general, I, I no longer count

(01:14:16):
my church community as part ofthe stressor, that's, which is,
which is the way it should beright. Like, you know, that's
the place to like, ya know, canconnect with some sort of divine
resource and in the mosteuphemistic way possible. So it
shouldn't be something thatcontributes to the things that

(01:14:36):
are weighing you down. So yeah,that aspect absolutely helped.
Yeah,

well, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. And community
is such an important antiburnout tool. And so if church
was your main source ofcommunity, and then that gets
taken away from you, I can onlyimagine on top of everything
else that you are dealing withhow much of an impact that had
to have had and to have to like,not be going to on for a couple
of months, when that was such abig part of your life and such a

(01:15:03):
big part of your support system,like,

Chloe (01:15:05):
Yeah, I mean, I can tell you this, like, you know, off
topic, but on maybe I was justtalking with all my best friends
from grad school about this,like, you know, when you're an
academic it's not the kind ofjob like, people misunderstand
this all the time, like, youknow, they'll say like, oh,
well, you know, like, I'm fromGeorgia, from around the area in

(01:15:28):
Athens where UGA is, you know, Iparents set the timer, like, you
know, you just go down to UGA,and you knock on their door and
you don't take no for an answer.
See if they're hiring, like,that's not how academia works at
all. No academia,

I have friends who are in it, and who have military
spouse, friends who their careerwas over because they had to
move for military. I mean, like,it's so difficult.

Chloe (01:15:52):
Yeah, absolutely. I've explained to someone recently,
it's like, it's like an NFLdraft, if they didn't want you.
Like, you know, because youdon't get to take the job down
the street, you have to, youknow, like the the quarterback
up for grabs, or like that hemight go to Cincinnati, or he
might go to Washington State.
But those teams are fighting forhim, like we want you. In

(01:16:14):
academia, it's like, you mightgo to Cincinnati, you might go
to Washington State neither ofthose schools or have any
guarantee to hire you. Or eveneven or even email you back
letting you know, you didn't getthe job. Yeah, most. And so, you
know, that's painful on a wholelevel. So you know, again,
that's why we moved toPennsylvania. But the point I'm

(01:16:35):
making is that like, I, I saw afriend, you know, one of those,
you meet at conferences, andthen you talk on, then you then
you connect on social mediaforever. And she was like, how
did you like academics? How didyou find community after you
moved, because I'm very lonely,stuff like that. And like, I

(01:16:56):
didn't say this, but my firstthought was, go to church. But
like, and so I was talking withone of my best friends from grad
school recently, the problemwith American life is that
outside of the church, or Iguess, the bar, there's really
no third space. You know,there's the home, there's the

(01:17:17):
job, but as far as community,there's church and there's, you
know, I guess nightlife. Yeah,and so, like, and so like, when
it comes to, at the, at theabsolute bait me my wife is more
kind of, like, deconstructedburnt out mystical about this,

(01:17:40):
like, you know, her thing is,like, at the very core, if I no
longer believe the community wehave at church is hard to let go
us. But you know, it's verydifferent when it's like, you
know, that church we were atbefore I can't be like, Oh, but
I couldn't let go this communitythat thinks I'm going to hell,

(01:18:02):
like that's different, you know?
Yeah. But like, but yeah, it'sit's definitely hard to find
community outside of a religiouscontext in a lot of ways in
American life. And so I knowthat there are communities that
are fighting against that, youknow, I mean, like there's like,

(01:18:23):
like roller derby leagues andall kinds of stuff that people
do. And I don't mean to minimizethat. But I think even by just
finally missing roller derbyleague maybe that sounds like a
minimizing it but I don't meanto but trans love roller. Who

can I trust myself to not die it roller derby but
so

Chloe (01:18:47):
much less likely to die at church, I guess. But, you
know, it's a community that evenif I completely abandoned
religious beliefs, at this stageof my life, you know, some of
those people at our church arecloser to us than our family.
And, you know, anyone when ourwhen our family is like,

(01:19:07):
whenever you're moving back,it's kind of like, well, why
would we like we have chosenfamily here that is more
meaningful than your wishy washymilk like you know, their
support is really going to offerus here

Vanessa (01:19:29):
this was I'm Yeah. This was a good episode. Yay. And
Chloe, thank you so much. Chloe,you need to make your own
fucking podcast seriously.
Yeah, you. You got it does

a good job of selling how much I know how
expensive it is and howunstressed we are about ours.

Chloe (01:19:54):
It's time consuming and costly. You should do. You
should do it

Vanessa (01:19:58):
securely. You have some you got to do Hey, do you know,
do I have time to write and reada book about it to like, oh like
this is, I have a feeling that alot of people are going to be
impacted by this. So thank you.
Thank you so greatly here. Kate,thank you so much for CO
hosting. Oh my gosh, thank you.
Natalie has to occur off here.
But next week, we have Sara Lee.

(01:20:25):
And she's going to be talkingabout her past experiences as a
paramedic with neuro divergence.
And the fun that she did withthat and her natural pivot from
that to being a creativecopywriter. So yeah. So we'll
see you on next week. I'mtranscending humanity, and have
a great weekend or have ahorrible weekend, whatever. I

(01:20:47):
don't give a shit. Bye. Oh, no,go ahead.

Chloe (01:20:56):
Oh, sorry. I um, I don't I don't know if you can edit
this and move it back to beforeyou just said bikes. I feel like
I'm really fucking it up. Butlike,

Vanessa (01:21:03):
you will leave it in because it's fun.

Chloe (01:21:07):
I mentioned earlier I said Maddie, and then I said, we
can talk about that later. Andthen I know, I feel like that's
I feel like that's gonna beconfusing. So anyway, when I
came out, and you know, like,working with Ashley was one
thing, but like, we also had tolike work with Iris, you know,
he was like, two at the topbecause she was actually yes,

(01:21:31):
she was with round two. And westarted working with her on it.
I was like, Hey, we did theresearch on like, what do
lesbian moms you know, callthemselves you know, and so like
we looked into like mom and Mamaand we was like, that sounds way
too confusing. You know, like amama number. I love that. And so
I found Maddie and I thoughtthat that would be a really easy

(01:21:53):
again inevitable plan transitionfrom daddy. So So yeah, so yeah,
I've been Maddie for you knowlike over three years now. Whoa
and Yeah, good one. I just everytime I'd love to hear it. But
anyway, next week andtranscending humanity ceraweek.

Without and then the rest of the crew.

Vanessa (01:22:21):
I'm glad you brought that up because it is fun
hearing how other people whoused to be considered dad. Yeah,
have different different things.
Like I said I was Didi - I'mDidi. Maddie, I love it. So
thank you fell again. Have agood one or how horrible one and
thank you again is pleasure.
Both of you.

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Too Queer to be Christian... too Christian to be Queer - Episode 46 - Kate Bridal & Chloe Milligan

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Too Queer to be Christian... too Christian to be Queer - Episode 46 - Kate Bridal & Chloe Milligan