The Heart of Gospel Perfection and escaping worldly perfectionism with best-selling author Colleen Carroll Campbell
Part 2 of the interview with Colleen Carroll Campbell
From the chaos of high-stakes politics to the serene wisdom of saints, Colleen Carroll Campbell's journey unfolds with compelling revelations. As a former White House speechwriter, Colleen discusses the unique challenges and spiritual awakenings she encountered working as a journalist and a presidential speechwriter, and as a homeschooling mother and as a Christian writer.
Together, we uncover how figures like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Therese of Liseux (affectionately known as The "Little Flower") have offered profound alternatives to the relentless pursuit of worldly success, challenging us to redefine true fulfillment through the lens of Gospel Perfection.
Discover how the virtues of humility, mercy, and forgiveness have guided saints in their pursuit of authentic love and spiritual growth. By embracing Gospel values, we explore practical ways to silence the noise of societal pressures and focus on nurturing a heart filled with Christ's love. From reducing screen time in preparation for the upcoming Lenten season, to understanding the powerful connection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the conversation offers timely insights into living a life aligned with spiritual rather than material values.
Young people today are increasingly drawn to the authenticity of traditional Christian practices. Our discussion reflects on this cultural shift, with Colleen sharing her observations of the resurgence of traditions like the Latin Mass, and its impact on family life through education choices being made by families. Whether it's the rise of homeschooling or the pushback against modern cultural phenomena, there's a growing desire to reclaim solid doctrine and spiritual truth. Join us as we explore these currents and seek inspiration from saints to enrich our journeys and those of our families.
This interview was recorded on Nov. 13, 2024.
To learn more about Colleen's work and find her books, please visit:
Her website is:
https://www.colleen-campbell.com
Colleen's Substack:
https://colleencarrollcampbell.substack.com/
Colleen's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/colleencarrollcampbell/
Colleen on X/Twitter:
https://x.com/colleenccampbel
To reach Veil + Armour on social media
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@veilandarmour
Website: https://veilandarmour.com
Sheila's Website: https://sheilanonato.com
X/Twitter: https://www.x.com/@sheilanonato
Here are the books Sheila mentioned at the end of the episode: St. Francis of Assisi by Father Lovasik, S.V.D. (from Seton Home Study Program)
The Heart of Perfection by Colleen Carroll Campbell
https://colleen-campbell.com
To reach Veil + Armour, please visit:
https://veilandarmour.com
https://www.youtube.com/@veilandarmour
https://www.x.com/@sheilanonato
https://www.sheilanonato.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/@veilandarmour
What resonated with you the most about this episode? Feel free to email us and let us know!
Email: veilandarmour@gmail.com
If our podcast helped you in some way, or could help someone else, kindly share our podcast with a friend!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (00:00):
I think that's why you see all of this
different evidence of youngadults attracted to a more
robust and small, oh, orthodoxfaith orthodox meaning right
belief.
So they want something solidand that expresses itself, as
you said, in different ways.
Love young people enough totell them the truth, even when
the truth you're telling themlies in the face of the lies the
(00:21):
world is telling them.
That's precisely when you needto tell them the truth.
Sheila Nonato (00:29):
Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
Seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(00:52):
.
Co-Host (00:52):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (01:02):
St Valentine's Day is when we celebrate love
with the exchange of gifts likeroses, a box of chocolates,
perhaps some sparkly diamondbaubles.
The materialism of these gifts,like material perfectionism, is
, on the surface, beautiful tolook at, yet to get to the heart
and authenticity of perfectionwe need to dig deeper.
(01:25):
Is love a feeling, an emotion,a commitment?
The commitment we see in thesacrament of marriage echoes
love and devotion.
The day of your wedding is aday of excitement and the
promise of everlasting love, asit was for John and Colleen
Carroll Campbell.
(01:45):
Colleen, who was our guest lastweek.
She had written about thesaints and what she learned from
them, about God's perfection,in contrast to the counterfeit
version of worldly perfectionism.
This was the wedding toast bytheir friend.
May the Lord break both yourhearts.
It gave them pause and also aclue to the gospel perfection
(02:10):
that God is calling us to aspireto.
What is the value of a brokenheart?
Colleen wrote in her book theHeart of Perfection.
Colleen explores the SacredHeart of Jesus in her book.
On the cross, our Lord waspierced through the side by a
Roman soldier, piercing hislungs and his heart as both
(02:33):
blood and water flowed from hisbody.
The broken body and the brokenheart of Christ.
What do they teach us aboutbreaking free from worldly
perfection and exploring gospelperfection?
Let's listen to Colleen to findout.
(02:53):
Hello Sisters in Christ.
Welcome back to part two, andwe will explore the question of
how to escape from, find freedomin Christ and seeking Christ
and seeking the love of Christand finding that freedom from
perfectionism.
In her 20s, colleen CarrollCampbell achieved the perfect
(03:15):
career path for a young idealistwith big dreams.
She was in the White House,working as a speech writer for
President George W.
Bush, working in the center ofpower amongst highly ambitious
people, looking to make theirmark and help make a difference
in the world.
Yet it was not the glamour ofpower that she felt drawn to.
(03:38):
As she writes in her book, "heHeart of Perfection how the
saints taught me Me to Trade myDream of Perfect for God's, she
found herself surprisinglylooking to St Francis, the
humble saint who gave it all uphis father's wealth, a
comfortable lifestyle, and whoembraced the poor, the lepers
(04:00):
and Christ's suffering.
What was it about St Francisthat Colleen was drawn to?
What did she learn from him andfrom the saints about gospel
perfection, and how can we turnour hearts towards the heart of
Christ and free ourselves fromchasing after what the world
(04:21):
sees as success in money, fame,power, status, and to trade it
for God's invitation to mercy,forgiveness, charity and
authentic, selfless love.
God bless, and let's pray theSaint Francis prayer.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
(04:45):
Spirit.
Amen.
Lord, make me an instrument ofyour peace.
Where there is hatred, let mesow love.
When there is injury, pardon.
When there is doubt, faith.
When there is despair, hope.
When there is darkness, light.
When there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, granted, I maynot so much seek to be consoled
(05:06):
as to console, to be understoodas to understand, to be loved
as to love, for it is in givingthat we receive, it is in
pardoning that we are pardonedand it is in dying that we are
born to eternal life.
Amen.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, Amen.
And when you mentionedobedience, I'm also thinking
(05:34):
about St.
Francis, who you mentioned inthe book, another saint you
mentioned and you had writtenabout.
His conversion was quitedramatic when he rejected his
father's wealth and he embracedpoverty.
What can we learn from S t.
Francis and sort of recoveringfrom our perfectionist
tendencies.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (05:47):
Yes, St .
Francis is an interesting guy.
On that same trip we were ableto go to Assisi and spend a lot
of time there, which was not alot of time but enough to really
see all of the sites andappreciate him once again.
I had been there years ago butit was fun for my kids to see
Assisi and where this.
You can just picture Francis,up and down the hills of Assisi,
this troubadour partying withhis friends late at night,
(06:10):
singing in the alleys andstreets.
And you know, he was just kindof this happy-go-lucky, rich kid
who was beloved by everyone.
And that's where I exploredsocial perfectionism a little
bit in my book, the Heart ofPerfection, because he was very
much in that vein.
He was attentive to what othersthought of him, to what he was
wearing, to how he looked, tohow popular he was, and then in
(06:32):
the course of his conversion hereally did a 180.
All of a sudden he's, you know,he's embracing lepers, he's
living as a poor man, he'swearing rags, he's panhandling
from his old party friends andhe experiences a lot of
rejection, a lot of humiliation.
And yet he comes to see thatthat's how he draws near Christ
(06:54):
crucified, about letting go ofthe world's standards, what the
world said he needed to be happy, what he had always believed,
were the limits of what he coulddo.
I can't embrace lepers, I can'tlive poor, I can't give up my
dreams of glory, whatever it was, and really accept that God had
(07:16):
a completely different visionfor him and one that, of course
we know, revolutionized thechurch I mean, really
revitalized it at a time whenthe church was in great, great
peril.
And you know, the Pope had thisdream of this little friar
holding up the whole church.
You know (07:30):
"ebuild my church.
And Francis did it with God'sgrace, through God's grace, and
was known as the mostChrist-like person since Christ
himself.
And it all began when he beganto let go of the comparison and
the standards of the world andjust really tune his ear to what
Jesus was asking of him inparticular, even if it wasn't
(07:51):
what he was asking of everyoneelse around him.
And I think that's a toughthing to do in our world,
especially today for people atany stage of life.
In part because of theinfluence of the internet and
social media, we are constantlybombarded with images of what
everybody else is doing and whateveryone else values, and
there's no way to get away fromthem, because they're on our
phones, which are on us 24-7,right?
So I think it takes a greatdeal of discipline to kind of
(08:16):
put that aside, tune in throughprayer to what the Holy Spirit
is calling us to do and thenhave the boldness that Francis
had to act on it, to let go ofthat worldly perfectionism and
start striving after gospelperfection, which is an entirely
different thing, which is allabout surrender and stepping out
in faith rather than controland conforming to the world.
Sheila Nonato (08:39):
And when you mentioned boldness, I remember
in your book you talked about St.
Therese when she said I chooseall.
And what is it about the heartof Jesus that can help us to
heal and see that we shouldtrade this in for humility?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (09:00):
Yes, well, the sacred heart is a
really interesting devotion.
We know that it actually hasits origins in the earliest days
of the church, which issomething a lot of Catholics
don't know.
I mean, we can find this allthe way back in Scripture, you
know, in the pierced heart ofJesus in Scripture.
And when that blood and waterflowed out from the heart of
(09:33):
Jesus, we know that, you know,john leaned against the heart of
Christ, who was the closest toChrist of the apostles in terms
of that kind of heart to heartconnection.
And then we see, through thefathers of the church, from the
very beginnings of the churchall the way through more modern,
better known saints such asMargaret, mary and various other
saints who had a devotion tothe sacred heart, that this is a
core part of our faith is thissense of connecting heart to
heart with Christ and askingJesus to pick out our hearts of
(09:55):
stone and replace them with aheart of flesh, with his own
heart.
And one thing that struck me asI researched all of these
recovering perfectionist saints,as I call them, the guys like
Benedict and Francis and Thereseand Jane de Chantal and Francis
de Sales, and each one of them,Alphonse Liguri and many others
I didn't put in the book.
(10:15):
I was struck by how many ofthem had a deep devotion to the
Sacred Heart of Jesus and Ithought, well, what's the
connection there?
And what I really found to beis well, therese, I would say,
expressed it the best, asTherese so often does.
But it was really this sensethat we have to ask the Lord to
replace our hearts with hisheart, to allow us to love the
(10:40):
difficult people in our lives.
We try to cope with thedifficult situations in our
lives with our own strength.
You know we're going to whiteknuckle it.
I'm going to be better today.
I'm going to be more patientwith this person, I'm going to
be kinder, and we kind of comevery quickly to the end of our
own strengths and our own love.
Place our heart with his, in asense.
(11:01):
When we say Jesus, love thisperson through me, because, man,
I do not have what it takes,which is Therese talked talked
so much about and wrote poemsabout it.
She has some beautiful writingson the Sacred Heart that I
think deserve more attention.
When we do that, then we openourselves up to this infinite
font of love, the love of Christ, and that's really what he
(11:23):
wants.
I think the perfectionistimpulse is to assume that if
we've got this really difficultsituation or person, jesus is
asking us to handle it allourselves.
And then, when we feel we can't, we get very frustrated Like
why do you put this in my lifeif I clearly can't do this?
And the answer is, yeah, youcan't do it, you cannot do it on
your own.
And once you realize that, thenyou're actually starting to get
(11:45):
somewhere, because then yourealize I need to do this for
and with you.
And once we begin to do thatkind of surrender you know we
saw this a lot in Mother Teresaof Calcutta how she saw Christ
in the poor but then also askedChrist to love them through her
her.
You know she wanted to be hisarms and feet to love these
people.
But she knew the love had tostart with him and that's why
(12:08):
she wouldn't let her sisters outinto the streets of Calcutta
until each one had done aEucharistic holy hour each day.
And she said if you don't havetime to pray, then don't go out
in the streets for Jesus,because you won't be bringing
Jesus to them, then you'll justbe bringing yourself, and the
world doesn't need more confusedpeople who are just bringing
their own strength.
We got a lot of nice people inthe world trying to do nice
(12:31):
things, but because they're nottapped into this source of love,
there's a real limit on howmuch good they can do.
But if we allow ourselves to bevessels of God's love by
admitting that we don't haveenough in ourselves, that we
need his heart, that we need toadopt his sacred heart and to
allow our wounds to be there,just as his are there, and to
(12:52):
allow him to work through thosewounds rather than denying that
they exist, then there's nolimit to what we can do for
Jesus, because then we becomereal vessels of his love in the
world.
And I think that's why we'reseeing a revitalization of the
Sacred Heart devotion.
Too often, I think in the past,it's been seen merely as one
about reparation and guilt, andthere's an element of, you know,
(13:15):
obviously, doing reparations ofthe Sacred Heart and First
Fridays you know my family and Iare very active with devotions
on First Fridays.
But I think it's also importantto recognize this is also a way
to evangelize today, a newevangelization of reaching
people also through the heart,because our world, unfortunately
, is tuning out a lot of headarguments, but people are still
(13:38):
open to somebody sharing theirheart and the heart of Christ.
We can't share any better heartthan that.
Sheila Nonato (13:45):
And just to touch upon this concept that you
mentioned, the heart and loveand the title of your book, the
Heart of Perfection.
You write in the book to beperfect is to love as God loves.
And is that what perfectionmeans, then?
Is to love perfectly our ownimperfections as well as the
imperfect people and imperfectworld that we live in.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (14:06):
Yeah, I think that's a great summary,
Sheila, and I make thisdistinction a lot in "he Heart
of Perfection that we live in.
Yeah, I think that's a greatsummary, sheila, and I make this
distinction a lot in the heartof perfection, that we've got
this idea of perfection, andit's worldly perfection.
And then there's gospelperfection, and I know for
myself at least I often thoughtthey were similar, maybe not
quite the same thing, butsimilar in the sense that
they're all about being the best, flawless.
(14:27):
But really, if you look atgospel perfection as lived in
the lives of the saints and asshown to us through Christ
himself in the gospels, it'sturning the world's values
upside down.
Right, it's not about controlbut about surrender.
It's not about winning butabout letting go.
And there are a million otherways that I go into in more
(14:50):
detail in the book about howgospel perfection is so
radically different from whatour world holds up as perfection
that we really have to be readyto let go of the world's idea
of perfection entirely beforewe're going to make intense
progress on the path to gospelperfection.
And of course, we're not goingto reach our own.
You know, we're not going toachieve perfection on earth in
(15:12):
the sense of oh, now I've gotthe perfect life and the perfect
heart and I'm doing everythingperfectly.
Of course, now we're fallenhuman beings, but the more we
open ourselves to this gospelideal, the more possible it
becomes to love the Lord with apure heart, with motives that
are separated from self, thatare more about truth surrendered
(15:34):
to him.
And this is not something I'vegot licked by any measure.
You can hang out with me for afew days and see that I don't.
So I don't hold myself up asthe exemplar of this, but I do
talk about my own struggles inthe heart of perfection and some
breakthroughs, and certainlythe struggles and breakthroughs
of these recoveringperfectionist saints, to remind
readers that this is possible,to make this kind of serious
(15:56):
progress toward true joy, towardtrue gospel values and toward
holiness, precisely by lettinggo of our old ideas of what it
takes to be the best or to dothings quote-unquote right.
Sheila Nonato (16:14):
And as we are approaching, Advent and
Christmas can be a verystressful time for people, can
lead to increased anxiety, evendepression.
As women and as mothers, whatis a concrete way that we can
choose to let go of perfectionin favour of God's idea of
perfect love?
Is it less social media, moreprayer time?
(16:35):
Is there a concrete sort ofstep that we can take?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (16:50):
I'm on a few sites, not a lot, but you
know enough to know what's goingon.
But I don't see a lot ofbenefit for our spiritual life
and social media.
You know, certainly when youwant to know what's going on
it's kind of fun to go see.
Okay, this is what they're allsaying, but I find for myself
it's very scattering anddistracting and kind of gets me
in the wrong mindset.
So I do think we should be verycareful about our consumption
of social media and screens ingeneral.
(17:11):
And you know I'm talking tomyself as much as anyone else
I'm.
You know I got my phone with mea lot of the day too, so it's a
struggle for me as well.
And I have a.
I have a new Sub stack.
Your listeners can find itgoing to my website,
colleen-campbell.
com, and there's some some links.
I've just started a sub stackwhere one of the things I write
about is just the, just theattraction to screens, the
(17:35):
dependence on screens and howthat really scatters our focus
from the things that matter.
So I think you know reducingour screen time you know I know
in Advent I always try to stayoff a lot of social media and
the news and you know, at leastreducing the consumption of that
can be really helpful.
I also think that, as you said,the prayer.
(17:55):
That's super important, carvingout more time for prayer.
And then I think another pieceof it is letting go of this
perfectionist idea of having theperfect Christmas, doing it the
perfect way.
We're going to hit all thetraditions.
You know it can getoverwhelming, especially you
know, if you do something one ortwo times and it becomes a
tradition that you can't break.
And you know, at some point, themore kids you have and the more
(18:16):
years you go on you can get,you can start drowning in
traditions and it can become areally busy time of year with
the activities and the Christmasprograms, the recitals and all
the rest.
So I do think it's good to kindof keep our eye on the ball in
Advent, and if that means wedon't have what looks like the
world's perfect Christmas, if weskip a few things that we used
to always do on Christmas andthis year we don't do them, so
(18:38):
mommy can have some sanity andeverybody can keep their focus
more on Jesus, I think that'sokay.
And I also think observingAdvent just the fact that this
is like a mini- Lent and reallyholding to that.
It's tough for every year.
I mean, the Christmasdecorations go up now, you know,
the day after Halloween, but wedon't have to live like that.
We can still hold out and inour little domestic churches
(18:59):
this can still be a peaceful,prayerful time of expectant,
joyful waiting and not, you know, just Christmas that lasts two
months and then ends on December26th.
Sheila Nonato (19:10):
That's.
That's great advice, and I'dlike to hopefully be able to
implement some of that.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (19:16):
I need to because you know I'm a good
talk, but like everyone else, Iget caught up in all of it
myself.
Sheila Nonato (19:24):
And and I just want to go back to your career
as a presidential speechwriterthe former President, George W.
Bush.
I just wanted to sort of canyou give us a glimpse into that
world?
I'm sure it was very fast paced, and how did that coincide with
your faith?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (19:42):
Yeah, well, I wrote about that in
greater detail in "y Sister'sthe Saints.
In fact there's a whole chapterjust about that time of my life
, my Sister's the Saints.
In fact there's a whole chapterjust about that time of my life
.
And specifically I wasstruggling at that time because
my then fiance was in medicalschool in St Louis and I got
this job at the White House inWashington DC when we were
(20:02):
already engaged and planning tobe married soon.
So we kind of put the weddingon hold so I could go out there
and start this job.
And then it was.
You know, he couldn't reallytransfer medical schools, I
couldn't transfer the WhiteHouse over to St Louis.
But there was a great strugglethat I went through to figure
out what to do, because thereagain, you know, the world has a
very clear idea of what successis, and working at the White
(20:24):
House is success.
Leaving that kind of a job soyou can go get married not so
successful, at least in the eyesof the world dumb move in the
eyes of the world.
So that was a struggle that Ihad and I wrote a lot about that
in my Sisters the Saints and StFaustina and her litany.
You know her spirituality oftrust in Jesus.
That really helped me duringthat time.
But to answer your question, yes, it was very fast paced.
(20:51):
I mean I remember working 10,11 o'clock on a Sunday night,
taking a call from Condi(Condoleeza) Rice or Karl Rove
or whoever was the final word onsuch and such speech.
You know you'd have a staffingprocess of dozens of people
chiming in on every word youwrote and then I, you know I had
the opportunity to workdirectly with President George W
.
Bush on a number of things, andyou know, in the Oval Office.
So it was thrilling, it wasexhausting.
You know, there's a saying thatone year in the White House,
(21:11):
it's like dog years.
It ages you pretty fast, itgets tired of it pretty quickly.
So I like the excitement of it.
But at the same time, you know,I'm grateful for the life that
I have now.
It's not nearly as exciting orimpressive, but it's a lot more
peaceful and I feel like I'maddressing the issues that
matter the most.
And I'm grateful for the time Ihad there and I think the work
(21:34):
I did there was important too,and certainly don't want to put
down those in public service.
It's important and we need moreprincipled people in public
service and public life.
But I do think, as witheverything else, what is
flashiest and most obvious andprestigious to people sometimes
is overvalued in comparison towhat really lasts and what
really has eternal worth.
Sheila Nonato (21:58):
Amazing.
And was President Bush and Mrs.
Bush as down to earth as theyseemed to be?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (22:03):
Yeah, he was a great guy.
I really enjoyed working withhim and I didn't get to know her
as much, but he was, yeah, hewas.
You know, he was one of thoserare public people, you see, who
pretty much is down to earthand friendly with you in person,
just as they might appear on TV.
I mean he was a tough editor.
He wasn't always, you know, hecould be grumpy if you wrote
(22:24):
something he thought was a wasteof time or you were repeating
yourself or whatever.
I mean he wasn't, he wasn't allyou know smiles.
Obviously he's the leader of thefree world, he's a serious guy,
but I thought he was agenuinely good man and, for
whatever qualms people haveabout this or that policy
decision he made, I think you'llfind very few people who work
(22:45):
closely with him who wouldn'tconfirm that he was a man of
genuine faith and real decency,who was particularly, I saw kind
of people who couldn'tnecessarily pay him back, who
weren't on his level or you know, because a lot of times again,
you see people in power.
They seem nice on TV and then inperson they're, you know,
they're kind of mean to thelowlier people, and he was the
(23:06):
opposite.
He would go out of his way to,I think, acknowledge the dignity
of those working with and forhim and those that others might
not notice.
And I know when we'd havespeeches and I'd write the
stories of some of theseordinary Americans that he was
lifting up in his speeches andthen they'd meet him.
I mean, he was really genuinewith them and showed some real
(23:28):
humility and that was nice tosee in a leader.
You don't see that enough thesedays.
Sheila Nonato (23:33):
Awesome.
And did he give any Christmasgifts?
I'm just curious.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (23:37):
I pretty did.
I think we got like White HouseM&Ms or something, I don't
remember.
No, I got ornaments.
I think they give you WhiteHouse ornaments, okay, cool.
Sheila Nonato (23:47):
Yeah and yeah, this concept of holiness and
politics.
Some might think that doesn'tgo together.
But when you were there youwrote that you were reading St.
Francis.
That seems sort ofdiametrically opposed to power.
And here is St.
Francis, the opposite of power.
(24:08):
What was the attraction?
Why were you reading St.
Francis?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (24:11):
Well, that was precisely the
attraction, that it was theopposite.
So I was in this place, full ofegos and posturing and the
staffing process alone, which isthe process by which a
presidential speech is edited.
So I would write the speech andthen, like everybody, and their
grandmother would come in withthe editing pen and tell me what
to change, and then my job wasto fight them off and make sure
it stayed a clear, good speech,which wasn't easy, and I was.
(24:34):
I was pretty young, you know, Iwas in my 20s, and a lot of
these people were much older andmore experienced than I was and
much more politically connectedand astute.
So it was a tough environment.
I mean high, high stress andjust so much posturing and so
much ego.
And that is not to blame theBush administration.
You see it in anyadministration.
You see it all over Washington.
(24:55):
It's famous for, I mean, youknow you don't get to Washington
not feeling pretty good aboutyourself, and thinking your
ideas are important andeverybody should listen to them.
So in the midst of that, I didbecome very attracted to St.
Francis of Assisi, because hishumility, his rejection of
worldly pomp and power andstatus, his poverty, it all was
(25:16):
so, so, different from what Iwas surrounded by every Assisi
that has lasted to this day.
We named two of our children forFrancis and Claire.
I have a Joseph Francis and aClara.
Like I said, I've been toAssisi a few times and we've
(25:38):
brought our children just thispast year, and our family is
very Franciscan in many ways.
You know been in a Franciscanparish and we walk a Unipro
Sarah Franciscan pilgrimageevery year with a bunch of other
Catholics here on the coast ofCalifornia to remember the
Franciscans who firstevangelized this coast.
I do think this could be a realFranciscan moment in the life
(26:00):
of the church, because what weneed in times that are this
confusing and lost in many waysis the same kind of boldness
that we saw from St Francis,that sense of of.
I'm just going to do somethingcompletely new and radically
oriented toward Christ, notsomething that fits in with the
world, but rather something thatstands out and kind of step out
(26:20):
fearlessly in faith.
That's what he did, and I thinkwe need more Catholics willing
to do that today.
Sheila Nonato (26:26):
And finally, speaking of this boldness and
not fitting in the book youwrote, "he New Faithful, where
you were documenting youngChristians turning to orthodoxy,
are we seeing the fruits ofthat?
I feel like you predicted yousaw this trend that was coming,
that youth are hungry fortradition, that they want to
(26:48):
learn about their history,tradition, that they want to
learn about their history, andsome of them are.
You know, Novus Ordo.
Masses are great.
Some of them are interested inthe Latin mass.
There are young women wearingveils.
Not everyone does it, but thereare some.
So how did you see this trend?
This was maybe over 10 yearsago now, right?
Colleen Caroll Campbel (27:09):
Actually more than years ago, 20 years
ago now, yes, yes, I laughbecause about once every year or
two you'll see some splashyarticle in the Washington Post
or New York Times or Atlantic,saying with all these young
traditional people, where didthey come from?
And I'm just thinking, okay, Iwrote about this a lot and I
wasn't the only one to writeabout it.
But I will say, when it cameout the new faithful in 2002,
(27:35):
you know, I got a lot of flackfrom older folks, especially
baby boomers, who said you gotto be making this up.
This is not happening.
And you know you'reexaggerating this or that.
I don't see this, or many ofthem saw it and they hated it
and just wanted it to go away.
See this, or many of them sawit and they hated it and just
wanted it to go away, and soit's really funny.
So now you know, now it's everytime we see.
(27:58):
You know the more recentstatistics.
There was a survey, I think, ofyoung priests, how they were
overwhelmingly identified morewith their grandparents'
generation than with thegeneration between them, with
baby boomer priests, in terms oftheir liturgical or traditional
preferences, whatever otherdoctrine, when we see that young
people are attracted to thoseministries and parishes where
the Gospel is preached withoutcompromise, where the Church's
(28:20):
teachings are defended insteadof denigrated, where there's
reverence in the liturgy,whether that be the ordinary or
the extraordinary form, becauseI do think that's ultimately
what people are seeking in theMass is the reverence.
For, you know, if this reallyis the body and blood of Jesus
Christ, then why are we notshowing great reverence in
receiving him and in thisliturgy?
(28:42):
Why is it sometimes look like a?
You know?
Why do you walk into churcheswhere people are talking so
loudly?
You think you went to thecircus instead of mass, or, you
know, before mass, or why aren'twe, you know, worshiping with
the level of reverence andbeauty that the Lord deserves?
(29:02):
And so, again, I think that'sall.
Those are all things that I didsee 20 years ago when traveling
the country and interviewingall of these young people, and
they were primarily Catholics.
They were also evangelicals,many of whom were converting to
Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxyin a few cases.
But it was this hunger fortradition and by that I don't
(29:24):
necessarily mean what Catholicsthink of, as you know
traditional list, and that'scertainly a piece of it, but
it's also something broader justthis hunger for solid doctrine.
You know I want to hear whatthe church teaches and what the
reasoning is and I want to learnabout that.
I don't want you to soft pedalit for me and tell me how to
make this easy.
(29:44):
I don't want it to be easybecause life is hard and I get
that and I know that the truththat Jesus is calling me to is
probably going to be demandingor it doesn't feel like it's
really true.
And so I think you see thattoday.
I think we're going to alwayssee that.
I mean you can go back toscripture and see signs.
You know Paul warning us allweek in the readings of the mass
(30:04):
.
You know, pay attention tosound doctrine, show reverence
and have self-control.
And you know this is how thechurch grew.
You know, through the blood ofthe martyrs, through the witness
of those who wereuncompromising in their
allegiance to Christ and theirwillingness to buck the world
when that's what it took to showtheir reverence for him and
(30:24):
their love for him.
And I think that's always howthe church has grown.
It's always how the church hasappealed to the young.
And I think whenever we try tosoft pedal things or turn the
mass into a clown show whereeveryone's just, you know,
yucking it up and having a greattime but it's not really about
Jesus, then we're going to failand we're not going to attract
people, and I think that's whyyou see all of this different
(30:46):
evidence of young adultsattracted to a more robust and
small Orthodox faith Orthodoxmeaning right belief.
So they want something solidand that expresses itself, as
you said, in different ways,sometimes in a certain, you know
, liturgical preferences.
Sometimes it's more in thebooks that they're reading, the
podcasts they're listening to.
Sometimes it takes a moretroubling form when you know
(31:10):
more fringe characters are kindof seizing upon that and then
sometimes distorting things in away that I think can create
more divisiveness than unity.
But in any case, it's real andI think church leaders have to
pay attention to the fact thatyoung people today want solid
food.
They don't want to be panderedto.
And that was the case when JohnPaul was Pope, when I was
(31:31):
writing the book, and he wasvery popular with the New
Faithful because he gave it tohim straight, and it was the
case, you know.
I think it's the case today.
I think that's always going tobe the case.
Young people want you to tellthem the truth.
I remember someone told me orperhaps it was in an article
that I had quoted in that book,but they said I think it was an
interview.
He told me you know what I likeabout John Paul II.
(31:56):
He loved us enough to tell usthe truth and I just you know.
I really think that's a goodlodestar, for today's church
leaders (32:01):
Love young people enough to tell them the truth,
even when the truth you'retelling them flies in the face
of the lies the world is tellinghim.
That's precisely when you needto tell them the truth and when
you were talking about, again,orthodoxy and sort of tradition.
Sheila Nonato (32:19):
This is just my assessment, but it seems like
there seems to be an attractionto a nostalgia about a return to
tradition or conservatism,small C or big C.
The US just had an election.
In Giorgia Meloni, was elected.
There seems to be sort of ahunger for that.
Do you see that as well?
What do you make of the?
U.
(32:39):
S.
election.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (32:40):
Yeah, I do think that was a huge factor
.
I think the woke hysteria hasgotten just out of hand.
I think a lot of ordinaryAmericans, even who don't
consider themselves conservative, are just looking around saying
, wow, things are getting prettyweird.
You know, we've got menpunching women in the Olympics
and winning medals for itbecause they're identifying as
women.
We've got, you know, Catholicsbeing told they have to perform
(33:02):
abortions because otherwisethey're violating someone else's
rights.
So we've got, you know, there'sjust a lot of things going on
culturally that I think aretroubling to a lot of rank and
file Americans.
I won't pretend that's the onlyreason for you know this kind
of swing in that direction, norwill I would I say that you know
candidates line up perfectlywith the Catholic Church who's
(33:24):
been supported by some of these.
But I do think you're seeingkind of a backlash, and I think
that's predictable, because Ithink the culture has changed so
radically and so quickly that Ithink a lot of Americans are
kind of stepping back and saying, "oh no, some of this doesn't
seem right.
(33:46):
Kids were learning when theirkids were Zooming from home with
their school and saying wait aminute, this is what you're
learning in school, that youknow I could do this better
myself.
And then you saw the huge spikein homeschooling rates, which I
would argue is going to have amore profound effect than
anything at the polls.
It's how we raise our kids, andthose who are choosing to
homeschool their kids or sendthem to classical Catholic or
(34:07):
Christian schools or make surethat their children are educated
, not brainwashed, because Ithink we see a lot of that on
college campuses, where there'sjust one way you're allowed to
think and anyone who deviatesfrom that is canceled or
silenced or harassed.
And I think more and moreAmericans are waking up to that
and saying you know, wait, who'srunning our schools?
Who's running our school board?
Who's running theseuniversities that my taxpayer
(34:30):
dollars are funding and why arethey enforcing this group thing
that contradicts my values andthe values that have been at the
heart of American democracy for200 years.
So I think the deeper and moreimportant trends are the ones
that are happening in families,in churches, in neighborhoods,
in communities, on school boardsand people pulling their kids
(34:57):
out of school or moving them todifferent schools.
That's where we're going to seethat longer term impact, and
you know, it also becomes a warof attrition at some point,
because you know the side in ourculture that is so anti-life,
that is so embracing not simplyallowing abortion but really
(35:18):
embracing abortion, reallyseeing childlessness as
something to be exalted andchildren as a real problem,
which you know, just in thecourse of raising children I've
seen in the last 15 years howattitudes have gotten more and
more hostile toward children.
I mean, these days in myneighborhood if you see a
stroller and there's a child init instead of a dog, it's.
You know we do a little happydance on the sidewalk because
(35:40):
it's rare.
So I mean we're headed in areally troubling direction in
many ways in this country.
But I do think the good news isa lot of Americans are waking up
and saying I don't know, I maynot have my whole philosophy
down, I might not have mytheology straight, but I know
some of this doesn't look right.
I know children should be thefuture.
I know their innocence shouldbe protected.
I know men don't belong inwomen's bathrooms.
(36:02):
I know some of this stuff justisn't right.
And so the more Americans wakeup to that, the more important I
think it's going to be forfaithful Catholics who are
well-versed in their faith to beraising up tomorrow's leaders
who can then guide their fellowcitizens towards something that
is more fulfilling andlife-giving and God-honoring.
I think, really, the leaders oftomorrow are going to be the
(36:23):
kids of today who are raisedwithout a lot of screens,
without a lot of influence fromthe social media, same obsessed
culture, raised to think forthemselves and to think with the
church and to lead for Jesus.
I think those kids are going tobe real leaders because we've
seen that the schools today arenot producing leaders.
They're producing a lot oflockstep conformists.
(36:46):
So our children need to beleaders because those folks are
going to need some guidance andthey can either get it from the
world or they can get it fromthose who love God and respect
his values.
You know, I'm hopeful that thenext generation there might not
be large majorities of peoplewho you know attend church and
follow the Ten Commandments andall the rest of it, but I do
(37:08):
think those who are clear headedabout the problems we face are
poised to be the leaders.
Sheila Nonato (37:15):
As a Catholic mother, I appreciated that you
raised this question in yourbook, or this idea in your book
that are we looking to have ourkids go to Harvard or get to
heaven?
And we sometimes forget, yes,the material, you know the
material, earthly successes,achievements.
They're there and everyonewants to strive for that.
(37:37):
But we also have another, moresupernatural sort of out.
We need to have another outlook, a supernatural outlook that we
are not only here for thisearth or this life, but for the
supernatural life.
Here for this earth or thislife, but for the supernatural
life.
And I'm really honoured to haveyou today to talk about your
(37:57):
book and it's been such ablessing and I really appreciate
your time.
Thank you so much.
Was there anything else thatyou wanted to add?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (38:03):
No, I really enjoyed talking with you,
Sheila, and I think that'sgreat that we always, as you
said, we just, we always want tokeep that horizon of heaven in
front of us, even more than thisor that battle we're waging,
you know, in the culture, inpolitics, even skirmishes in the
church, we always want toremember that at the end of the
day, that's our goal is tobecome saints and to live in you
(38:26):
know, forever with Jesus and toget everyone in our lives to
heaven too, and ultimatelythat's God's work, not ours.
But we can cooperate with it.
And I think in the realm of thehome, the family and then our
own spheres of influence, ourparishes, our workplaces, we can
have a huge impact, and I thinkit's tempting to think our
impact can't be big unless we'rebig.
(38:46):
We're doing something reallysplashy out there in the world,
but actually I think theopposite is true.
I think what your listeners aredoing in their daily lives, in
the parts of their lives no onecan see, that's probably the
most important work of all.
Sheila Nonato (39:00):
Amen, and can you please remind us where can we
find your work?
Where can listeners connectwith you?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (39:08):
Sure.
So my website is www.
colleen-campbellcom and thathas" Heart of Perfection.
Links to the Heart ofPerfection, my Sisters, the
Saints, the New Faithful.
You can also check me out onSubstack.
I have a Substack where Ipublish occasional essays on
these and related topics, and Ihave a page on my website where
(39:30):
I do list some of my upcomingspeaking engagements.
You can catch me there too.
Sheila Nonato (39:35):
Amazing.
Thank you so much again,Colleen.
I really appreciate your timeand God bless you and your
family and your work.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, God bless, take care.
Okay, Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye.
(40:00):
Thank you to Colleen CarrollCampbell for joining us this
week, for sharing the lessonsshe learned.
Bye-bye, I urge you to, Iinvite you to join me in
dedicating some time during themorning in prayer to focus our
day to give thanks to God, firstand foremost, to give gratitude
(40:23):
to God, and then to focus ourday to what can we offer God in
our day, what can we offer Godin our day, and to offer our
little crosses, our littlesufferings and challenges, and
also to give gratitude for allthe joys and blessings that God
has given us.
And I just wanted to also touchupon the theme of the heart in
(40:46):
Greek, in the New Testament.
In Greek, the word for heart is"kardia, and it doesn't only
mean emotions, it also talksabout the intellect, the
emotions and the will.
And in this sense, it iscalling for a complete and inner
transformation, not just of ourfeelings or emotions, but of
(41:09):
our whole self, our whole body.
Transformation not just of ourfeelings or emotions, but of our
whole self, our whole body, andso when God calls us to a
change of heart, he really meansa change, an inner and complete
transformation of ourselves.
And I invite you, julian, as weprepare for Lent, if you'd like
some spiritual readings.
So this is what my children havebeen reading through the Seton
(41:29):
Home Study that's the storyabout St Francis.
If you have another book,another children's book, that
has sort of St Francis, thatmight be helpful to you.
And I also invite you to pickup Colleen's book, "he Heart of
Perfection, and all of theinformation will be in the show
(41:50):
notes.
But that really helped me toalso go deeper in my faith and
in my prayer life and to look atscripture in a different way,
and I look forward to sharingmore stories with you.
And if you found this episodein our podcast helpful, please
share with a friend who mightbenefit from it.
(42:12):
And may God bless you all.
May God continue to bless youand we thank you for your
prayers and for spending sometime with us, your precious time
, to listen to these stories ofempowerment, of empowerment in
Christ and inspiration andtransformation.
Thank you and God bless.
Co-Host (42:30):
Thank you for listening and happy birthday to my big
sister.
We love you.
Sheila Nonato (42:52):
Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armor
podcast.
Co-Host (42:55):
I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom
today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's Be Brave, let's Be Boldand Be Blessed together.
I think that's why you see all of this
different evidence of youngadults attracted to a more
robust and small, oh, orthodoxfaith orthodox meaning right
belief.
So they want something solidand that expresses itself, as
you said, in different ways.
Love young people enough totell them the truth, even when
the truth you're telling themlies in the face of the lies the
(00:21):
world is telling them.
That's precisely when you needto tell them the truth.
Sheila Nonato (00:29):
Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
Seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(00:52):
.
Co-Host (00:52):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (01:02):
St Valentine's Day is when we celebrate love
with the exchange of gifts likeroses, a box of chocolates,
perhaps some sparkly diamondbaubles.
The materialism of these gifts,like material perfectionism, is
, on the surface, beautiful tolook at, yet to get to the heart
and authenticity of perfectionwe need to dig deeper.
(01:25):
Is love a feeling, an emotion,a commitment?
The commitment we see in thesacrament of marriage echoes
love and devotion.
The day of your wedding is aday of excitement and the
promise of everlasting love, asit was for John and Colleen
Carroll Campbell.
(01:45):
Colleen, who was our guest lastweek.
She had written about thesaints and what she learned from
them, about God's perfection,in contrast to the counterfeit
version of worldly perfectionism.
This was the wedding toast bytheir friend.
May the Lord break both yourhearts.
It gave them pause and also aclue to the gospel perfection
(02:10):
that God is calling us to aspireto.
What is the value of a brokenheart?
Colleen wrote in her book theHeart of Perfection.
Colleen explores the SacredHeart of Jesus in her book.
On the cross, our Lord waspierced through the side by a
Roman soldier, piercing hislungs and his heart as both
(02:33):
blood and water flowed from hisbody.
The broken body and the brokenheart of Christ.
What do they teach us aboutbreaking free from worldly
perfection and exploring gospelperfection?
Let's listen to Colleen to findout.
(02:53):
Hello Sisters in Christ.
Welcome back to part two, andwe will explore the question of
how to escape from, find freedomin Christ and seeking Christ
and seeking the love of Christand finding that freedom from
perfectionism.
In her 20s, colleen CarrollCampbell achieved the perfect
(03:15):
career path for a young idealistwith big dreams.
She was in the White House,working as a speech writer for
President George W.
Bush, working in the center ofpower amongst highly ambitious
people, looking to make theirmark and help make a difference
in the world.
Yet it was not the glamour ofpower that she felt drawn to.
(03:38):
As she writes in her book, "heHeart of Perfection how the
saints taught me Me to Trade myDream of Perfect for God's, she
found herself surprisinglylooking to St Francis, the
humble saint who gave it all uphis father's wealth, a
comfortable lifestyle, and whoembraced the poor, the lepers
(04:00):
and Christ's suffering.
What was it about St Francisthat Colleen was drawn to?
What did she learn from him andfrom the saints about gospel
perfection, and how can we turnour hearts towards the heart of
Christ and free ourselves fromchasing after what the world
(04:21):
sees as success in money, fame,power, status, and to trade it
for God's invitation to mercy,forgiveness, charity and
authentic, selfless love.
God bless, and let's pray theSaint Francis prayer.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
(04:45):
Spirit.
Amen.
Lord, make me an instrument ofyour peace.
Where there is hatred, let mesow love.
When there is injury, pardon.
When there is doubt, faith.
When there is despair, hope.
When there is darkness, light.
When there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, granted, I maynot so much seek to be consoled
(05:06):
as to console, to be understoodas to understand, to be loved
as to love, for it is in givingthat we receive, it is in
pardoning that we are pardonedand it is in dying that we are
born to eternal life.
Amen.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, Amen.
And when you mentionedobedience, I'm also thinking
(05:34):
about St.
Francis, who you mentioned inthe book, another saint you
mentioned and you had writtenabout.
His conversion was quitedramatic when he rejected his
father's wealth and he embracedpoverty.
What can we learn from S t.
Francis and sort of recoveringfrom our perfectionist
tendencies.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (05:47):
Yes, St .
Francis is an interesting guy.
On that same trip we were ableto go to Assisi and spend a lot
of time there, which was not alot of time but enough to really
see all of the sites andappreciate him once again.
I had been there years ago butit was fun for my kids to see
Assisi and where this.
You can just picture Francis,up and down the hills of Assisi,
this troubadour partying withhis friends late at night,
(06:10):
singing in the alleys andstreets.
And you know, he was just kindof this happy-go-lucky, rich kid
who was beloved by everyone.
And that's where I exploredsocial perfectionism a little
bit in my book, the Heart ofPerfection, because he was very
much in that vein.
He was attentive to what othersthought of him, to what he was
wearing, to how he looked, tohow popular he was, and then in
(06:32):
the course of his conversion hereally did a 180.
All of a sudden he's, you know,he's embracing lepers, he's
living as a poor man, he'swearing rags, he's panhandling
from his old party friends andhe experiences a lot of
rejection, a lot of humiliation.
And yet he comes to see thatthat's how he draws near Christ
(06:54):
crucified, about letting go ofthe world's standards, what the
world said he needed to be happy, what he had always believed,
were the limits of what he coulddo.
I can't embrace lepers, I can'tlive poor, I can't give up my
dreams of glory, whatever it was, and really accept that God had
(07:16):
a completely different visionfor him and one that, of course
we know, revolutionized thechurch I mean, really
revitalized it at a time whenthe church was in great, great
peril.
And you know, the Pope had thisdream of this little friar
holding up the whole church.
You know (07:30):
"ebuild my church.
And Francis did it with God'sgrace, through God's grace, and
was known as the mostChrist-like person since Christ
himself.
And it all began when he beganto let go of the comparison and
the standards of the world andjust really tune his ear to what
Jesus was asking of him inparticular, even if it wasn't
(07:51):
what he was asking of everyoneelse around him.
And I think that's a toughthing to do in our world,
especially today for people atany stage of life.
In part because of theinfluence of the internet and
social media, we are constantlybombarded with images of what
everybody else is doing and whateveryone else values, and
there's no way to get away fromthem, because they're on our
phones, which are on us 24-7,right?
So I think it takes a greatdeal of discipline to kind of
(08:16):
put that aside, tune in throughprayer to what the Holy Spirit
is calling us to do and thenhave the boldness that Francis
had to act on it, to let go ofthat worldly perfectionism and
start striving after gospelperfection, which is an entirely
different thing, which is allabout surrender and stepping out
in faith rather than controland conforming to the world.
Sheila Nonato (08:39):
And when you mentioned boldness, I remember
in your book you talked about St.
Therese when she said I chooseall.
And what is it about the heartof Jesus that can help us to
heal and see that we shouldtrade this in for humility?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (09:00):
Yes, well, the sacred heart is a
really interesting devotion.
We know that it actually hasits origins in the earliest days
of the church, which issomething a lot of Catholics
don't know.
I mean, we can find this allthe way back in Scripture, you
know, in the pierced heart ofJesus in Scripture.
And when that blood and waterflowed out from the heart of
(09:33):
Jesus, we know that, you know,john leaned against the heart of
Christ, who was the closest toChrist of the apostles in terms
of that kind of heart to heartconnection.
And then we see, through thefathers of the church, from the
very beginnings of the churchall the way through more modern,
better known saints such asMargaret, mary and various other
saints who had a devotion tothe sacred heart, that this is a
core part of our faith is thissense of connecting heart to
heart with Christ and askingJesus to pick out our hearts of
(09:55):
stone and replace them with aheart of flesh, with his own
heart.
And one thing that struck me asI researched all of these
recovering perfectionist saints,as I call them, the guys like
Benedict and Francis and Thereseand Jane de Chantal and Francis
de Sales, and each one of them,Alphonse Liguri and many others
I didn't put in the book.
(10:15):
I was struck by how many ofthem had a deep devotion to the
Sacred Heart of Jesus and Ithought, well, what's the
connection there?
And what I really found to beis well, therese, I would say,
expressed it the best, asTherese so often does.
But it was really this sensethat we have to ask the Lord to
replace our hearts with hisheart, to allow us to love the
(10:40):
difficult people in our lives.
We try to cope with thedifficult situations in our
lives with our own strength.
You know we're going to whiteknuckle it.
I'm going to be better today.
I'm going to be more patientwith this person, I'm going to
be kinder, and we kind of comevery quickly to the end of our
own strengths and our own love.
Place our heart with his, in asense.
(11:01):
When we say Jesus, love thisperson through me, because, man,
I do not have what it takes,which is Therese talked talked
so much about and wrote poemsabout it.
She has some beautiful writingson the Sacred Heart that I
think deserve more attention.
When we do that, then we openourselves up to this infinite
font of love, the love of Christ, and that's really what he
(11:23):
wants.
I think the perfectionistimpulse is to assume that if
we've got this really difficultsituation or person, jesus is
asking us to handle it allourselves.
And then, when we feel we can't, we get very frustrated Like
why do you put this in my lifeif I clearly can't do this?
And the answer is, yeah, youcan't do it, you cannot do it on
your own.
And once you realize that, thenyou're actually starting to get
(11:45):
somewhere, because then yourealize I need to do this for
and with you.
And once we begin to do thatkind of surrender you know we
saw this a lot in Mother Teresaof Calcutta how she saw Christ
in the poor but then also askedChrist to love them through her
her.
You know she wanted to be hisarms and feet to love these
people.
But she knew the love had tostart with him and that's why
(12:08):
she wouldn't let her sisters outinto the streets of Calcutta
until each one had done aEucharistic holy hour each day.
And she said if you don't havetime to pray, then don't go out
in the streets for Jesus,because you won't be bringing
Jesus to them, then you'll justbe bringing yourself, and the
world doesn't need more confusedpeople who are just bringing
their own strength.
We got a lot of nice people inthe world trying to do nice
(12:31):
things, but because they're nottapped into this source of love,
there's a real limit on howmuch good they can do.
But if we allow ourselves to bevessels of God's love by
admitting that we don't haveenough in ourselves, that we
need his heart, that we need toadopt his sacred heart and to
allow our wounds to be there,just as his are there, and to
(12:52):
allow him to work through thosewounds rather than denying that
they exist, then there's nolimit to what we can do for
Jesus, because then we becomereal vessels of his love in the
world.
And I think that's why we'reseeing a revitalization of the
Sacred Heart devotion.
Too often, I think in the past,it's been seen merely as one
about reparation and guilt, andthere's an element of, you know,
(13:15):
obviously, doing reparations ofthe Sacred Heart and First
Fridays you know my family and Iare very active with devotions
on First Fridays.
But I think it's also importantto recognize this is also a way
to evangelize today, a newevangelization of reaching
people also through the heart,because our world, unfortunately
, is tuning out a lot of headarguments, but people are still
(13:38):
open to somebody sharing theirheart and the heart of Christ.
We can't share any better heartthan that.
Sheila Nonato (13:45):
And just to touch upon this concept that you
mentioned, the heart and loveand the title of your book, the
Heart of Perfection.
You write in the book to beperfect is to love as God loves.
And is that what perfectionmeans, then?
Is to love perfectly our ownimperfections as well as the
imperfect people and imperfectworld that we live in.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (14:06):
Yeah, I think that's a great summary,
Sheila, and I make thisdistinction a lot in "he Heart
of Perfection that we live in.
Yeah, I think that's a greatsummary, sheila, and I make this
distinction a lot in the heartof perfection, that we've got
this idea of perfection, andit's worldly perfection.
And then there's gospelperfection, and I know for
myself at least I often thoughtthey were similar, maybe not
quite the same thing, butsimilar in the sense that
they're all about being the best, flawless.
(14:27):
But really, if you look atgospel perfection as lived in
the lives of the saints and asshown to us through Christ
himself in the gospels, it'sturning the world's values
upside down.
Right, it's not about controlbut about surrender.
It's not about winning butabout letting go.
And there are a million otherways that I go into in more
(14:50):
detail in the book about howgospel perfection is so
radically different from whatour world holds up as perfection
that we really have to be readyto let go of the world's idea
of perfection entirely beforewe're going to make intense
progress on the path to gospelperfection.
And of course, we're not goingto reach our own.
You know, we're not going toachieve perfection on earth in
(15:12):
the sense of oh, now I've gotthe perfect life and the perfect
heart and I'm doing everythingperfectly.
Of course, now we're fallenhuman beings, but the more we
open ourselves to this gospelideal, the more possible it
becomes to love the Lord with apure heart, with motives that
are separated from self, thatare more about truth surrendered
(15:34):
to him.
And this is not something I'vegot licked by any measure.
You can hang out with me for afew days and see that I don't.
So I don't hold myself up asthe exemplar of this, but I do
talk about my own struggles inthe heart of perfection and some
breakthroughs, and certainlythe struggles and breakthroughs
of these recoveringperfectionist saints, to remind
readers that this is possible,to make this kind of serious
(15:56):
progress toward true joy, towardtrue gospel values and toward
holiness, precisely by lettinggo of our old ideas of what it
takes to be the best or to dothings quote-unquote right.
Sheila Nonato (16:14):
And as we are approaching, Advent and
Christmas can be a verystressful time for people, can
lead to increased anxiety, evendepression.
As women and as mothers, whatis a concrete way that we can
choose to let go of perfectionin favour of God's idea of
perfect love?
Is it less social media, moreprayer time?
(16:35):
Is there a concrete sort ofstep that we can take?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (16:50):
I'm on a few sites, not a lot, but you
know enough to know what's goingon.
But I don't see a lot ofbenefit for our spiritual life
and social media.
You know, certainly when youwant to know what's going on
it's kind of fun to go see.
Okay, this is what they're allsaying, but I find for myself
it's very scattering anddistracting and kind of gets me
in the wrong mindset.
So I do think we should be verycareful about our consumption
of social media and screens ingeneral.
(17:11):
And you know I'm talking tomyself as much as anyone else
I'm.
You know I got my phone with mea lot of the day too, so it's a
struggle for me as well.
And I have a.
I have a new Sub stack.
Your listeners can find itgoing to my website,
colleen-campbell.
com, and there's some some links.
I've just started a sub stackwhere one of the things I write
about is just the, just theattraction to screens, the
(17:35):
dependence on screens and howthat really scatters our focus
from the things that matter.
So I think you know reducingour screen time you know I know
in Advent I always try to stayoff a lot of social media and
the news and you know, at leastreducing the consumption of that
can be really helpful.
I also think that, as you said,the prayer.
(17:55):
That's super important, carvingout more time for prayer.
And then I think another pieceof it is letting go of this
perfectionist idea of having theperfect Christmas, doing it the
perfect way.
We're going to hit all thetraditions.
You know it can getoverwhelming, especially you
know, if you do something one ortwo times and it becomes a
tradition that you can't break.
And you know, at some point, themore kids you have and the more
(18:16):
years you go on you can get,you can start drowning in
traditions and it can become areally busy time of year with
the activities and the Christmasprograms, the recitals and all
the rest.
So I do think it's good to kindof keep our eye on the ball in
Advent, and if that means wedon't have what looks like the
world's perfect Christmas, if weskip a few things that we used
to always do on Christmas andthis year we don't do them, so
(18:38):
mommy can have some sanity andeverybody can keep their focus
more on Jesus, I think that'sokay.
And I also think observingAdvent just the fact that this
is like a mini- Lent and reallyholding to that.
It's tough for every year.
I mean, the Christmasdecorations go up now, you know,
the day after Halloween, but wedon't have to live like that.
We can still hold out and inour little domestic churches
(18:59):
this can still be a peaceful,prayerful time of expectant,
joyful waiting and not, you know, just Christmas that lasts two
months and then ends on December26th.
Sheila Nonato (19:10):
That's.
That's great advice, and I'dlike to hopefully be able to
implement some of that.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (19:16):
I need to because you know I'm a good
talk, but like everyone else, Iget caught up in all of it
myself.
Sheila Nonato (19:24):
And and I just want to go back to your career
as a presidential speechwriterthe former President, George W.
Bush.
I just wanted to sort of canyou give us a glimpse into that
world?
I'm sure it was very fast paced, and how did that coincide with
your faith?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (19:42):
Yeah, well, I wrote about that in
greater detail in "y Sister'sthe Saints.
In fact there's a whole chapterjust about that time of my life
, my Sister's the Saints.
In fact there's a whole chapterjust about that time of my life
.
And specifically I wasstruggling at that time because
my then fiance was in medicalschool in St Louis and I got
this job at the White House inWashington DC when we were
(20:02):
already engaged and planning tobe married soon.
So we kind of put the weddingon hold so I could go out there
and start this job.
And then it was.
You know, he couldn't reallytransfer medical schools, I
couldn't transfer the WhiteHouse over to St Louis.
But there was a great strugglethat I went through to figure
out what to do, because thereagain, you know, the world has a
very clear idea of what successis, and working at the White
(20:24):
House is success.
Leaving that kind of a job soyou can go get married not so
successful, at least in the eyesof the world dumb move in the
eyes of the world.
So that was a struggle that Ihad and I wrote a lot about that
in my Sisters the Saints and StFaustina and her litany.
You know her spirituality oftrust in Jesus.
That really helped me duringthat time.
But to answer your question, yes, it was very fast paced.
(20:51):
I mean I remember working 10,11 o'clock on a Sunday night,
taking a call from Condi(Condoleeza) Rice or Karl Rove
or whoever was the final word onsuch and such speech.
You know you'd have a staffingprocess of dozens of people
chiming in on every word youwrote and then I, you know I had
the opportunity to workdirectly with President George W
.
Bush on a number of things, andyou know, in the Oval Office.
So it was thrilling, it wasexhausting.
You know, there's a saying thatone year in the White House,
(21:11):
it's like dog years.
It ages you pretty fast, itgets tired of it pretty quickly.
So I like the excitement of it.
But at the same time, you know,I'm grateful for the life that
I have now.
It's not nearly as exciting orimpressive, but it's a lot more
peaceful and I feel like I'maddressing the issues that
matter the most.
And I'm grateful for the time Ihad there and I think the work
(21:34):
I did there was important too,and certainly don't want to put
down those in public service.
It's important and we need moreprincipled people in public
service and public life.
But I do think, as witheverything else, what is
flashiest and most obvious andprestigious to people sometimes
is overvalued in comparison towhat really lasts and what
really has eternal worth.
Sheila Nonato (21:58):
Amazing.
And was President Bush and Mrs.
Bush as down to earth as theyseemed to be?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (22:03):
Yeah, he was a great guy.
I really enjoyed working withhim and I didn't get to know her
as much, but he was, yeah, hewas.
You know, he was one of thoserare public people, you see, who
pretty much is down to earthand friendly with you in person,
just as they might appear on TV.
I mean he was a tough editor.
He wasn't always, you know, hecould be grumpy if you wrote
(22:24):
something he thought was a wasteof time or you were repeating
yourself or whatever.
I mean he wasn't, he wasn't allyou know smiles.
Obviously he's the leader of thefree world, he's a serious guy,
but I thought he was agenuinely good man and, for
whatever qualms people haveabout this or that policy
decision he made, I think you'llfind very few people who work
(22:45):
closely with him who wouldn'tconfirm that he was a man of
genuine faith and real decency,who was particularly, I saw kind
of people who couldn'tnecessarily pay him back, who
weren't on his level or you know, because a lot of times again,
you see people in power.
They seem nice on TV and then inperson they're, you know,
they're kind of mean to thelowlier people, and he was the
(23:06):
opposite.
He would go out of his way to,I think, acknowledge the dignity
of those working with and forhim and those that others might
not notice.
And I know when we'd havespeeches and I'd write the
stories of some of theseordinary Americans that he was
lifting up in his speeches andthen they'd meet him.
I mean, he was really genuinewith them and showed some real
(23:28):
humility and that was nice tosee in a leader.
You don't see that enough thesedays.
Sheila Nonato (23:33):
Awesome.
And did he give any Christmasgifts?
I'm just curious.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (23:37):
I pretty did.
I think we got like White HouseM&Ms or something, I don't
remember.
No, I got ornaments.
I think they give you WhiteHouse ornaments, okay, cool.
Sheila Nonato (23:47):
Yeah and yeah, this concept of holiness and
politics.
Some might think that doesn'tgo together.
But when you were there youwrote that you were reading St.
Francis.
That seems sort ofdiametrically opposed to power.
And here is St.
Francis, the opposite of power.
(24:08):
What was the attraction?
Why were you reading St.
Francis?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (24:11):
Well, that was precisely the
attraction, that it was theopposite.
So I was in this place, full ofegos and posturing and the
staffing process alone, which isthe process by which a
presidential speech is edited.
So I would write the speech andthen, like everybody, and their
grandmother would come in withthe editing pen and tell me what
to change, and then my job wasto fight them off and make sure
it stayed a clear, good speech,which wasn't easy, and I was.
(24:34):
I was pretty young, you know, Iwas in my 20s, and a lot of
these people were much older andmore experienced than I was and
much more politically connectedand astute.
So it was a tough environment.
I mean high, high stress andjust so much posturing and so
much ego.
And that is not to blame theBush administration.
You see it in anyadministration.
You see it all over Washington.
(24:55):
It's famous for, I mean, youknow you don't get to Washington
not feeling pretty good aboutyourself, and thinking your
ideas are important andeverybody should listen to them.
So in the midst of that, I didbecome very attracted to St.
Francis of Assisi, because hishumility, his rejection of
worldly pomp and power andstatus, his poverty, it all was
(25:16):
so, so, different from what Iwas surrounded by every Assisi
that has lasted to this day.
We named two of our children forFrancis and Claire.
I have a Joseph Francis and aClara.
Like I said, I've been toAssisi a few times and we've
(25:38):
brought our children just thispast year, and our family is
very Franciscan in many ways.
You know been in a Franciscanparish and we walk a Unipro
Sarah Franciscan pilgrimageevery year with a bunch of other
Catholics here on the coast ofCalifornia to remember the
Franciscans who firstevangelized this coast.
I do think this could be a realFranciscan moment in the life
(26:00):
of the church, because what weneed in times that are this
confusing and lost in many waysis the same kind of boldness
that we saw from St Francis,that sense of of.
I'm just going to do somethingcompletely new and radically
oriented toward Christ, notsomething that fits in with the
world, but rather something thatstands out and kind of step out
(26:20):
fearlessly in faith.
That's what he did, and I thinkwe need more Catholics willing
to do that today.
Sheila Nonato (26:26):
And finally, speaking of this boldness and
not fitting in the book youwrote, "he New Faithful, where
you were documenting youngChristians turning to orthodoxy,
are we seeing the fruits ofthat?
I feel like you predicted yousaw this trend that was coming,
that youth are hungry fortradition, that they want to
(26:48):
learn about their history,tradition, that they want to
learn about their history, andsome of them are.
You know, Novus Ordo.
Masses are great.
Some of them are interested inthe Latin mass.
There are young women wearingveils.
Not everyone does it, but thereare some.
So how did you see this trend?
This was maybe over 10 yearsago now, right?
Colleen Caroll Campbel (27:09):
Actually more than years ago, 20 years
ago now, yes, yes, I laughbecause about once every year or
two you'll see some splashyarticle in the Washington Post
or New York Times or Atlantic,saying with all these young
traditional people, where didthey come from?
And I'm just thinking, okay, Iwrote about this a lot and I
wasn't the only one to writeabout it.
But I will say, when it cameout the new faithful in 2002,
(27:35):
you know, I got a lot of flackfrom older folks, especially
baby boomers, who said you gotto be making this up.
This is not happening.
And you know you'reexaggerating this or that.
I don't see this, or many ofthem saw it and they hated it
and just wanted it to go away.
See this, or many of them sawit and they hated it and just
wanted it to go away, and soit's really funny.
So now you know, now it's everytime we see.
(27:58):
You know the more recentstatistics.
There was a survey, I think, ofyoung priests, how they were
overwhelmingly identified morewith their grandparents'
generation than with thegeneration between them, with
baby boomer priests, in terms oftheir liturgical or traditional
preferences, whatever otherdoctrine, when we see that young
people are attracted to thoseministries and parishes where
the Gospel is preached withoutcompromise, where the Church's
(28:20):
teachings are defended insteadof denigrated, where there's
reverence in the liturgy,whether that be the ordinary or
the extraordinary form, becauseI do think that's ultimately
what people are seeking in theMass is the reverence.
For, you know, if this reallyis the body and blood of Jesus
Christ, then why are we notshowing great reverence in
receiving him and in thisliturgy?
(28:42):
Why is it sometimes look like a?
You know?
Why do you walk into churcheswhere people are talking so
loudly?
You think you went to thecircus instead of mass, or, you
know, before mass, or why aren'twe, you know, worshiping with
the level of reverence andbeauty that the Lord deserves?
(29:02):
And so, again, I think that'sall.
Those are all things that I didsee 20 years ago when traveling
the country and interviewingall of these young people, and
they were primarily Catholics.
They were also evangelicals,many of whom were converting to
Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxyin a few cases.
But it was this hunger fortradition and by that I don't
(29:24):
necessarily mean what Catholicsthink of, as you know
traditional list, and that'scertainly a piece of it, but
it's also something broader justthis hunger for solid doctrine.
You know I want to hear whatthe church teaches and what the
reasoning is and I want to learnabout that.
I don't want you to soft pedalit for me and tell me how to
make this easy.
(29:44):
I don't want it to be easybecause life is hard and I get
that and I know that the truththat Jesus is calling me to is
probably going to be demandingor it doesn't feel like it's
really true.
And so I think you see thattoday.
I think we're going to alwayssee that.
I mean you can go back toscripture and see signs.
You know Paul warning us allweek in the readings of the mass
(30:04):
.
You know, pay attention tosound doctrine, show reverence
and have self-control.
And you know this is how thechurch grew.
You know, through the blood ofthe martyrs, through the witness
of those who wereuncompromising in their
allegiance to Christ and theirwillingness to buck the world
when that's what it took to showtheir reverence for him and
(30:24):
their love for him.
And I think that's always howthe church has grown.
It's always how the church hasappealed to the young.
And I think whenever we try tosoft pedal things or turn the
mass into a clown show whereeveryone's just, you know,
yucking it up and having a greattime but it's not really about
Jesus, then we're going to failand we're not going to attract
people, and I think that's whyyou see all of this different
(30:46):
evidence of young adultsattracted to a more robust and
small Orthodox faith Orthodoxmeaning right belief.
So they want something solidand that expresses itself, as
you said, in different ways,sometimes in a certain, you know
, liturgical preferences.
Sometimes it's more in thebooks that they're reading, the
podcasts they're listening to.
Sometimes it takes a moretroubling form when you know
(31:10):
more fringe characters are kindof seizing upon that and then
sometimes distorting things in away that I think can create
more divisiveness than unity.
But in any case, it's real andI think church leaders have to
pay attention to the fact thatyoung people today want solid
food.
They don't want to be panderedto.
And that was the case when JohnPaul was Pope, when I was
(31:31):
writing the book, and he wasvery popular with the New
Faithful because he gave it tohim straight, and it was the
case, you know.
I think it's the case today.
I think that's always going tobe the case.
Young people want you to tellthem the truth.
I remember someone told me orperhaps it was in an article
that I had quoted in that book,but they said I think it was an
interview.
He told me you know what I likeabout John Paul II.
(31:56):
He loved us enough to tell usthe truth and I just you know.
I really think that's a goodlodestar, for today's church
leaders (32:01):
Love young people enough to tell them the truth,
even when the truth you'retelling them flies in the face
of the lies the world is tellinghim.
That's precisely when you needto tell them the truth and when
you were talking about, again,orthodoxy and sort of tradition.
Sheila Nonato (32:19):
This is just my assessment, but it seems like
there seems to be an attractionto a nostalgia about a return to
tradition or conservatism,small C or big C.
The US just had an election.
In Giorgia Meloni, was elected.
There seems to be sort of ahunger for that.
Do you see that as well?
What do you make of the?
U.
(32:39):
S.
election.
Colleen Caroll Campbell (32:40):
Yeah, I do think that was a huge factor
.
I think the woke hysteria hasgotten just out of hand.
I think a lot of ordinaryAmericans, even who don't
consider themselves conservative, are just looking around saying
, wow, things are getting prettyweird.
You know, we've got menpunching women in the Olympics
and winning medals for itbecause they're identifying as
women.
We've got, you know, Catholicsbeing told they have to perform
(33:02):
abortions because otherwisethey're violating someone else's
rights.
So we've got, you know, there'sjust a lot of things going on
culturally that I think aretroubling to a lot of rank and
file Americans.
I won't pretend that's the onlyreason for you know this kind
of swing in that direction, norwill I would I say that you know
candidates line up perfectlywith the Catholic Church who's
(33:24):
been supported by some of these.
But I do think you're seeingkind of a backlash, and I think
that's predictable, because Ithink the culture has changed so
radically and so quickly that Ithink a lot of Americans are
kind of stepping back and saying, "oh no, some of this doesn't
seem right.
(33:46):
Kids were learning when theirkids were Zooming from home with
their school and saying wait aminute, this is what you're
learning in school, that youknow I could do this better
myself.
And then you saw the huge spikein homeschooling rates, which I
would argue is going to have amore profound effect than
anything at the polls.
It's how we raise our kids, andthose who are choosing to
homeschool their kids or sendthem to classical Catholic or
(34:07):
Christian schools or make surethat their children are educated
, not brainwashed, because Ithink we see a lot of that on
college campuses, where there'sjust one way you're allowed to
think and anyone who deviatesfrom that is canceled or
silenced or harassed.
And I think more and moreAmericans are waking up to that
and saying you know, wait, who'srunning our schools?
Who's running our school board?
Who's running theseuniversities that my taxpayer
(34:30):
dollars are funding and why arethey enforcing this group thing
that contradicts my values andthe values that have been at the
heart of American democracy for200 years.
So I think the deeper and moreimportant trends are the ones
that are happening in families,in churches, in neighborhoods,
in communities, on school boardsand people pulling their kids
(34:57):
out of school or moving them todifferent schools.
That's where we're going to seethat longer term impact, and
you know, it also becomes a warof attrition at some point,
because you know the side in ourculture that is so anti-life,
that is so embracing not simplyallowing abortion but really
(35:18):
embracing abortion, reallyseeing childlessness as
something to be exalted andchildren as a real problem,
which you know, just in thecourse of raising children I've
seen in the last 15 years howattitudes have gotten more and
more hostile toward children.
I mean, these days in myneighborhood if you see a
stroller and there's a child init instead of a dog, it's.
You know we do a little happydance on the sidewalk because
(35:40):
it's rare.
So I mean we're headed in areally troubling direction in
many ways in this country.
But I do think the good news isa lot of Americans are waking up
and saying I don't know, I maynot have my whole philosophy
down, I might not have mytheology straight, but I know
some of this doesn't look right.
I know children should be thefuture.
I know their innocence shouldbe protected.
I know men don't belong inwomen's bathrooms.
(36:02):
I know some of this stuff justisn't right.
And so the more Americans wakeup to that, the more important I
think it's going to be forfaithful Catholics who are
well-versed in their faith to beraising up tomorrow's leaders
who can then guide their fellowcitizens towards something that
is more fulfilling andlife-giving and God-honoring.
I think, really, the leaders oftomorrow are going to be the
(36:23):
kids of today who are raisedwithout a lot of screens,
without a lot of influence fromthe social media, same obsessed
culture, raised to think forthemselves and to think with the
church and to lead for Jesus.
I think those kids are going tobe real leaders because we've
seen that the schools today arenot producing leaders.
They're producing a lot oflockstep conformists.
(36:46):
So our children need to beleaders because those folks are
going to need some guidance andthey can either get it from the
world or they can get it fromthose who love God and respect
his values.
You know, I'm hopeful that thenext generation there might not
be large majorities of peoplewho you know attend church and
follow the Ten Commandments andall the rest of it, but I do
(37:08):
think those who are clear headedabout the problems we face are
poised to be the leaders.
Sheila Nonato (37:15):
As a Catholic mother, I appreciated that you
raised this question in yourbook, or this idea in your book
that are we looking to have ourkids go to Harvard or get to
heaven?
And we sometimes forget, yes,the material, you know the
material, earthly successes,achievements.
They're there and everyonewants to strive for that.
(37:37):
But we also have another, moresupernatural sort of out.
We need to have another outlook, a supernatural outlook that we
are not only here for thisearth or this life, but for the
supernatural life.
Here for this earth or thislife, but for the supernatural
life.
And I'm really honoured to haveyou today to talk about your
(37:57):
book and it's been such ablessing and I really appreciate
your time.
Thank you so much.
Was there anything else thatyou wanted to add?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (38:03):
No, I really enjoyed talking with you,
Sheila, and I think that'sgreat that we always, as you
said, we just, we always want tokeep that horizon of heaven in
front of us, even more than thisor that battle we're waging,
you know, in the culture, inpolitics, even skirmishes in the
church, we always want toremember that at the end of the
day, that's our goal is tobecome saints and to live in you
(38:26):
know, forever with Jesus and toget everyone in our lives to
heaven too, and ultimatelythat's God's work, not ours.
But we can cooperate with it.
And I think in the realm of thehome, the family and then our
own spheres of influence, ourparishes, our workplaces, we can
have a huge impact, and I thinkit's tempting to think our
impact can't be big unless we'rebig.
(38:46):
We're doing something reallysplashy out there in the world,
but actually I think theopposite is true.
I think what your listeners aredoing in their daily lives, in
the parts of their lives no onecan see, that's probably the
most important work of all.
Sheila Nonato (39:00):
Amen, and can you please remind us where can we
find your work?
Where can listeners connectwith you?
Colleen Caroll Campbell (39:08):
Sure.
So my website is www.
colleen-campbellcom and thathas" Heart of Perfection.
Links to the Heart ofPerfection, my Sisters, the
Saints, the New Faithful.
You can also check me out onSubstack.
I have a Substack where Ipublish occasional essays on
these and related topics, and Ihave a page on my website where
(39:30):
I do list some of my upcomingspeaking engagements.
You can catch me there too.
Sheila Nonato (39:35):
Amazing.
Thank you so much again,Colleen.
I really appreciate your timeand God bless you and your
family and your work.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, God bless, take care.
Okay, Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye.
(40:00):
Thank you to Colleen CarrollCampbell for joining us this
week, for sharing the lessonsshe learned.
Bye-bye, I urge you to, Iinvite you to join me in
dedicating some time during themorning in prayer to focus our
day to give thanks to God, firstand foremost, to give gratitude
(40:23):
to God, and then to focus ourday to what can we offer God in
our day, what can we offer Godin our day, and to offer our
little crosses, our littlesufferings and challenges, and
also to give gratitude for allthe joys and blessings that God
has given us.
And I just wanted to also touchupon the theme of the heart in
(40:46):
Greek, in the New Testament.
In Greek, the word for heart is"kardia, and it doesn't only
mean emotions, it also talksabout the intellect, the
emotions and the will.
And in this sense, it iscalling for a complete and inner
transformation, not just of ourfeelings or emotions, but of
(41:09):
our whole self, our whole body.
Transformation not just of ourfeelings or emotions, but of our
whole self, our whole body, andso when God calls us to a
change of heart, he really meansa change, an inner and complete
transformation of ourselves.
And I invite you, julian, as weprepare for Lent, if you'd like
some spiritual readings.
So this is what my children havebeen reading through the Seton
(41:29):
Home Study that's the storyabout St Francis.
If you have another book,another children's book, that
has sort of St Francis, thatmight be helpful to you.
And I also invite you to pickup Colleen's book, "he Heart of
Perfection, and all of theinformation will be in the show
(41:50):
notes.
But that really helped me toalso go deeper in my faith and
in my prayer life and to look atscripture in a different way,
and I look forward to sharingmore stories with you.
And if you found this episodein our podcast helpful, please
share with a friend who mightbenefit from it.
(42:12):
And may God bless you all.
May God continue to bless youand we thank you for your
prayers and for spending sometime with us, your precious time
, to listen to these stories ofempowerment, of empowerment in
Christ and inspiration andtransformation.
Thank you and God bless.
Co-Host (42:30):
Thank you for listening and happy birthday to my big
sister.
We love you.
Sheila Nonato (42:52):
Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armor
podcast.
Co-Host (42:55):
I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom
today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's Be Brave, let's Be Boldand Be Blessed together.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!