September 24, 2024 • 56 mins
How to become like saints through virtue, patience and resilience with Jacqueline Clovis, Founder of Determined to Achieve
Can virtues like generosity and forgiveness truly transform your mental health and personal development? Join us as we welcome Jacqueline Clovis, a Catholic mindset coach and CEO of Determined to Achieve, who offers a refreshing perspective on merging psychology with the Catholic faith. Jacqueline takes inspiration from Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" and elaborates on the significance of purpose and character education in schools. We dive deeply into practical tips for parents aiming to instill and model virtues, providing a roadmap to help children grow into future leaders and saints.
Curious about how to make virtues engaging for children? Jacqueline shares innovative methods, like a game designed to teach kids about virtues and faith in a fun, interactive way called the "Journey to Jesus" board game. We also discuss the delicate balance between reward and intrinsic motivation, helping children appreciate the value of their actions beyond immediate gratification. The episode underscores the importance of emotional regulation and resilience, with Jacqueline providing insights on how virtues like discipline and temperance can lead to personal success and long-term achievements.
Parenting isn't just about guiding children through their growth; it's about modeling the behaviour you wish to see. In this episode, we highlight the significance of parents' actions and consistency, especially during summer when family interaction is high (the interview was recorded on July 8, 2024). Jacqueline offers practical advice on how to incorporate virtues into daily activities like chores and family tasks, fostering a loving environment where virtues can naturally thrive. We cap off the episode with a look at how small, everyday sacrifices can serve as powerful lessons in Christian virtue, setting the stage for our next discussion with Sister Helela Burns on the Feminine Genius and parenthood. Tune in for an enriching conversation that blends faith, psychology, and practical parenting.
Connect with Jacqueline Clovis:
https://www.instagram.com/@determinedtothrive_
https://determinedtoachieve.co.uk
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https://veilandarmour.com
Email: veilandarmour@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sheila Nonato (00:04):
Hello and Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
Seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(00:27):
.
Co-host (00:27):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (00:35):
Hello Sisters in Christ! Welcome to the Veil and
Armour podcast.
This week we have JacquelineClovis, a Catholic mindset coach
and CEO of Determined toAchieve in the UK.
As it is back to school seasonand parent-teacher interviews
will be coming up in a couple ofmonths or so, one question you
may want to ask your child'steacher is if character
education is part of theschool's curriculum and focus.
(00:57):
Character education is relatedto the practice of virtue.
How do we instill and modelthese virtues for our children?
Jacqueline will start off theconversation by revealing how
she was intrigued to look at theintersection of faith and
psychology after reading thebook by Holocaust survivor
Viktor Frankl called "Man'sSearch for Meaning.
Let's listen to Jacqueline.
(01:18):
Give us some tips on teachingvirtue to our children so they
can grow up to become leadersand saints.
Jacqueline Clovis (01:23):
In the name of the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Come, Holy Spirit.
Enlighten our intellects andstrengthen our wills.
Give us the grace to do yourwill.
Our Lady Seat of Wisdom, Prayfor us.
In the name of the Father andof the Son, and of the Holy
Spirit, amen, amen.
Sheila Nonato (01:42):
Thank you very much, and I'm just going to
introduce our guest today.
Jacqueline Clovis is thefounder of Determined to Achieve
.
She is a certified life coach.
She studied psychology and hasspent the past decade
researching human personalities,behavior and the mind, with a
special interest in motivationalpsychology and human happiness.
(02:04):
Having worked with nursery-agedchildren for the past 10 years,
she has observed the effects offamily life and family values
on child development and offersworkshops and one-to-one
childhood consulting to helpparents support their young
children.
She is particularly skilled athelping young children reach
their developmental milestones.
(02:24):
She's also passionate abouthelping adults thrive.
So, drawing from her experienceand research, she offers
workshops, talks and one-on-onecoaching.
Using a Christian perspective,she helps adults discover their
unique purpose, transform theirmindsets and unlock their
potential so that they can livean authentic, joyful and
(02:54):
fulfilling life.
Welcome, Jacqueline, from Kentin England.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you so first off, yeah,we want to know about you.
How did you get into Catholicmindset coaching?
Jacqueline Clovis (03:04):
Yes, so I studied psychology and I always
felt like there was more.
I just felt like all thetheories were incomplete.
And somebody gave me the book"Man's Search for Meaning and
when I read it it was justtalking about the power of
purpose and it was written byVictor Franco, who was in the
(03:24):
concentration camps, and heobserved that him and other
people who were able to survivein the concentration camps were
people that had a strong senseof purpose, they were praying or
they were like thinking abouttheir families.
So that kind of sparks myinterest.
Because I was just thinkingabout how powerful purpose is
(03:45):
and I just felt like why has?
Why didn't anybody say this?
You know, while I was studying,and so I read, I also read a
book about mental health and itwas just talking about you know
how a mentally healthy personshould have high ethical
standards, should be generous,should be somebody who forgives,
and I was just thinking tomyself like you know what these
(04:07):
are virtues you know and for.
So that sparked this interestand I always saw I wanted to be
a life coach, because I lovemotivating people and helping
people unlock their fullpotential.
But I didn't.
I started, I thought about itand then I didn't have the
courage to do it because peoplejust kept telling me different
(04:28):
things like um no, you know,when you're doing psychology,
you cannot mention God andthings like that.
But I was just like I reallywant to do this, I really love
you know, just looking at themind and human behavior.
But I want to do it in aCatholic way, in a Christian way
, and it took me a long time toactually set up my own business
(04:51):
and actually like get certifiedas a life coach and just say,
yes, this is what I'm doing.
Even if it's just one personthat understands what I'm trying
to say and understands whyvirtue is important, and
understand I don't mind, like Ijust have to do this because
it's just a passion, it's justsomething that won't go away.
I mean, I've heard someone saythat dreams are just these
(05:12):
desires that just won't go away,and that's how it was for me.
I just always felt like Ireally want to do this, I really
want to motivate people, Ireally want to help people
unlock their potential.
And also, when I worked in likenurseries, I just saw this
whole concept of, like you know,the children's potential and
how sometimes it gets missed,and I just felt like I need
(05:33):
something where I can just focuson helping them unlock their
potential without restriction.
Sheila Nonato (05:39):
So, yeah, awesome and you.
In one of your podcasts youwere mentioning how you study
psychology and how psychology,how the catholic faith completes
psychology.
Can you explain a little bit?
Jacqueline Clovis (05:53):
Yes, so we in psychology, the main aim is to
understand, you know, humanbehaviour and in order for us to
be able to control and predictit.
And I feel like when we look atall the theories out there,
there is always this concept ofokay.
(06:14):
For example, when they say theytalk about motivation and they
just say, okay, we're eithermotivated by the desire to avoid
pain or to move towardspleasure, by the desire to avoid
pain or to move towardspleasure.
And there was a time wheresomeone did some work with the
dolphins and she realized thatdolphins were not reacting the
same way.
(06:34):
It wasn't just about pleasureand pain.
And she had to change her styleand think about okay, I have to
create a pattern where thedolphin knows when I'm going to
give this fish and when it'sgoing to jump.
And so for me, I just felt likethere was always just something
incomplete.
I was looking at, like, forexample, sigmund, for it just
(06:57):
talking about oh, man just wantspleasure.
And I just felt that is justnot enough.
Like how do you explain ViktorFrankl and these other people
surviving in concentration campsif it's just all about pleasure
?
And there was no pleasure.
They were suffering and theyhad.
There was something else.
Well, you know, I guess thefaith in the way of saying like,
(07:22):
oh, you know, we should giveeverybody positive,
unconditional positive regardand things like that, but it's
just still incomplete, becausethey just say you can determine
your happiness or you is justabout you.
So I just felt like there wasjust nothing completely saying
(07:44):
the full picture.
And when I myself went through apoint in my life where I didn't
get what I wanted and I felt sosad and down and I just felt
like, oh, I already have, I havefaith, and I felt like I
believe and I've believed.
Like you know, when they saybelieve, just believe, and it's
like, but I just believe.
And then I just realized thatthere is also the will of God in
(08:04):
all these things.
And there was a point where Ijust said, okay, lord, I accept
your will.
And the moment I said that, Ijust felt peace in my heart and
it was so clear to me that, wow,this was actually the obstacle
for me, this was what waskeeping me from being happy, me
fighting with you, what the willof God was for me.
And I just felt so much peaceand I remember even calling my
(08:27):
sister and just saying I feel somuch peace right now and ever
since then it made me realizethat some people who are
struggling with depression oreven different mental illnesses
where they're feeling low mood,it might actually be them
resisting the will of God intheir life or it might actually
be spiritual, because for me Ifelt it was, and so I just
(08:51):
really want to help those peoplein that category who might
actually be struggling withtheir mindset, might actually
just be in the way or they'restruggling with the will of God
in their lives or they're goingthrough difficulty and they feel
hopeless.
So just helping people on thatpath and I've just noticed, like
for Catholics, there is a range.
There is either some peoplewould have a lot of faith but
(09:15):
not want to do anything, becauseit just feels like, oh, I
already have faith and I don'thave to do anything, and then
some people would want to doeverything on their own and
forget that we have to work withGod.
And so I always think aboutSaint Augustine's uh, saint
Augustine's book, where he saysthat we should pray, as if
without prayer we can't get whatwe want, and we should work, as
(09:37):
if without working we can't getwhat we want.
So that always helps me balancemyself when I'm tilting to one
side or the other, and so that'swhy I think it's strongly
linked, because when you havepeace of mind, I think you're
able to pray better and able toconcentrate and able to carry
out your God-giving purpose andalso the whole aim.
(09:59):
What they're trying to do isalso, at end of the day,
understand human behavior, andthe faith actually explains it
in in totality.
When you look at the works ofThomas Aquinas, or even then
Francis de Sales, or thenAlphonsus Liguori, some of their
writings really talk abouthuman desires, how to live a
virtuous life, and it's sobeautiful because one thing
(10:24):
about virtue is that it's the,it's the balance between two
extremes.
So if, for example, courage,the balance between being
fearful, timid and being rash,so it's just that balance, and
so when you have that balance,you are happier.
Even ancient philosophers havespoken about this, that when you
(10:46):
they they spoke about the fourcardinal virtues.
They always spoke abouttemperance, prudence, wisdom and
justice, because they, just byusing their logic, they could
see that this is actually, youknow, this actually brings us
happiness, and so I feel likethe faith actually has
everything.
The faith draws us to virtue andthen the grace of God as well,
(11:10):
giving us that peace anddirection and God wants the best
for us and loves us so much andjust knowing that, wow, there's
someone out there that loves meunconditionally.
There was one time I came acrossthis page and it's all about
positivity and I was reallyhappy because I love positivity,
and on the page it had thisthing, this quote, saying
(11:32):
there's somebody out there thatloves you, and I just felt like,
wow, that just feels.
It feels nice to say that, butit's still not as complete as
the saying Jesus loves you andloves you unconditionally.
I can actually say I know thisperson and it's God and he loves
me unconditionally and, yes, sothat's how it just ties in.
(11:53):
I think they just flow intoeach other.
When you're trying to, you know, be healthy, mentally healthy
and have a good spiritual lifevery deep into your life, you
just realize that everythingjust flows.
So I feel like they worktogether.
We are mind, body and soul andwe have to bring everything
together and work in harmony,and the faith helps us do that.
Sheila Nonato (12:19):
And when you mentioned positivity, you
mentioned Viktor Frankl and"Man's Search for Meaning.
So he is a survivor of theHolocaust, correct?
What can we learn from him,from his book about positivity,
living a virtuous life and faith?
How can we apply that tomothers, to family life, to
(12:42):
children?
Jacqueline Clovis (12:43):
Yeah, everyday life.
So I'll say it's all aboutfinding meaning in everything
that we do and just that senseof purpose in everything that we
do.
And our faith helps us in avery big way because it tells us
that, okay, if you're a mom,your purpose is, you know, being
a good wife, being a goodmother.
(13:05):
If you are searching, yourpurpose at that point is to be
open to the will of God, findout what God is asking you.
But ultimately we have thisgeneral purpose to love, to love
God and neighbor.
And when Jesus was asked whatis the greatest commandment, he
said love God with all yourwhole heart, with all your whole
(13:26):
mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
So that gives us a generalpurpose.
And I think St Therese ofLisieux says my vocation is to
love.
So that gives us this generalpurpose, that even when you're
not sure what is going on, youcan just say okay, how am I
loving today, how am I lovingGod and neighbour today?
And that really love has pulledpeople through all sorts of
(13:51):
things.
I think is the strongestmotivating factor.
So when you think about victorfranco and people that survive,
is that okay?
We're praying to god, that hopegod loves me.
So, even if I'm in adevastating situation, I'm going
to still pray, and just thelove also for their family,
thinking, okay, I have tosurvive for my family.
(14:11):
And so it's coming back to loveas the strongest motivating
factor.
Also, there is a book called "eLeadeth Me where it's about a
police priest also in a camp aswell, where he had to struggle
to survive and sometimes hewould still find a way to do the
(14:33):
math secretly.
And it was still the sameconcept of love.
Love was what was sustaininghim, even in the difficulty of
the prison, and it was just sobeautiful and it just showed me
again that ultimately, love isthe greatest motivating factor.
(14:54):
It's the greatest way to liveyour life.
If you really want to live afulfilling life, you should be,
like, always thinking about love.
How am I loving God?
How am I loving neighbor?
Sheila Nonato (15:05):
You know, and yeah, that's what I would say
love yes, and love stems from,or goes hand in hand with,
virtue.
How do we teach virtue to ourchildren?
Jacqueline Clovis (15:19):
Yes, it's, yeah, it's very interesting.
What I find is that childrenhave a tendency towards a
certain virtue and might.
So I feel the first thing is toobserve the child and see where
they are and slowly introduceit in, you know, in everyday
life.
So, for example, when I'veworked with little children, I
(15:42):
will see that some have thetendency to want to share.
You know they're kind, theyhave a toy, another child wants
that toy and they want to share,and some just don't.
And you have to be there toencourage them and say, okay,
would you like to share withyour friend?
She's waiting really nicely.
And so it's just you yourselfreally being there to guide them
(16:05):
, inspire them and just noticewhat they need.
You know, because I feel thatit's so effective when you
actually teach them when theyneed it, especially because I
think it's good to have generalrules about virtue in the home
and I also think it's good tohave like one-on-one time where
(16:27):
you're actually supporting thechild individually to develop
the virtue they need.
Because sometimes you also find, like some children, for
example, might have the tendencytowards kindness but they might
not have enough courage tospeak up for themselves and they
might feel, okay, I'm beingkind and I don't know how to say
no to this other child, and youhave to be there for them, to
(16:51):
encourage them.
That kindness is good, you'reright when you're kind, but
sometimes you have to say no,and that is good.
It's virtuous as well to knowwhen to say no.
So I feel like incorporating itin is very good, and I think
it's also a good idea toactually talk about virtue in
the room, maybe during thedinner time, or just bring it up
(17:14):
in conversation, because Ithink there's just not enough
talk about virtue.
And this also inspired me tomake a game called " jesus,
where I just, you know, teachchildren about virtues and the
faith.
So it's basically very similarto snakes and ladders, where
things you know take you up anddown.
(17:35):
So good things take you up inthis game and bad things take
you down.
So, for example, "rude toparents will take you down,
gluttony takes you down, beinghelpful will take you up, and
the whole aim is to get to Jesusand so that way that they're
having that conversation.
Oh what, what is?
Why is gluttony bad?
What is gluttony and thingslike that?
(17:57):
And then in the game there isum dying immortals, and you
don't want that one, because yougo out of the game and then you
have, um, you have, yeah, atthe end getting to Jesus, like
just thinking about, yes, I wantto be ultimately, I want to be
good so that I can be pleasingto God.
(18:17):
And also it's amazing how theway God made us is in is in.
It's such an amazing thingbecause thing because he calls
us to this life of holiness andlife of virtue, and then he
still rewards us for doing it.
So there's still that rewardyou get, even in life, just for
(18:40):
being a virtuous person.
People can trust you, peoplecan rely on you.
You know you feel that peace inon you.
You know you are, you feel thatpeace in you because you know,
oh, I'm not lying, I'm an honestperson, you know.
So you just get all theserewards.
And also virtue also leads youto being successful in whatever
you're doing.
You can achieve whatever youset your mind to because you
(19:01):
have that virtue of disciplineyou are, you have that virtue of
temperance.
It helps you achieve the aimsyou have set for yourself.
So, yes, I think also making itfun.
So that's why the game is hereas well, to make you fun and
because it's you have to goagainst our nature.
So that's where the difficultyis.
So it's so important to make itfun, make it a discussion, make
(19:25):
it something that they get usedto hearing about.
And in the secondary school Iwent to, we always had the
virtue of the month, and everymonth we'll talk about that
virtue and talk about how we canum, you know, instill that
virtue or incorporate it intoour learning.
For example, there was a monththat we had order, and so we,
(19:50):
when we go back to the classroom, we would be asked to come up
with ways we can show order inour everyday life.
And so we'll be.
We'll come up with things likeoh, a virtuous girl, like an
orderly girl, has her lockertidy.
An orderly girl makes sure heruniform is tidy.
You know all these kinds ofthings, and so that way you're
(20:10):
looking at ways of incorporatingit in and practical ways.
How does it look like what?
How does it look like when I'morderly?
How does it look like when I'mhonest?
How does it look like when I ampracticing the virtue of
temperance?
So I think incorporating itinto everyday life and having
that conversation would make itpart of everyday life.
Sheila Nonato (20:33):
What would you say would be are there such
things as the top, let's say thetop three virtues for children
Like what?
Or is there such a thing, aneasy virtue to teach children?
Co-host (20:47):
to learn.
Jacqueline Clovis (20:48):
Okay.
So I think I think one of themost important things that you
can start from a very early ageis teaching them how to, I guess
, practice that sense ofdelaying gratification.
So I think delayinggratification is a very big
(21:10):
thing.
With the growth mindset, it'salways talking about you know
being able to learn and lovelearning, and so I'm always
trying to encourage people toadopt a growth mindset and help
their children cultivate thegrowth mindset.
So, for example, praising theefforts they put in and not just
(21:30):
saying, okay, you completedyour homework, that's been well
done, but what about?
I like the way you put effortsand you persevered until you
completed your homework.
So encourage those behaviorsand I feel like delaying
gratification if you can justsay, okay, you want this toy,
for example, now, but it's timeto have dinner, you can have it
(21:55):
after dinner.
And there's there's just a lotof research showing that when
children can delay theirgratification, it helps them,
you know, succeed later on inlife.
So there was actually a studydone on what is called the
marshmallow test, where childrenwere given.
There were two groups ofchildren.
The first group of childrenthey were given marshmallows and
(22:18):
and they were just marshmallowsplaced in front of them and the
adult will leave the room.
Just like what we see sometimesonline there this test where
they put sweets in front of thechild and leave the room and
they, but before they leave theroom, they give the instruction
saying don't take it until Icome back.
And the first group they saydon't, they don't touch it until
(22:40):
we come back.
The marshmallows are there,when we come back you can have.
And then they leave the room.
And then the second group ofchildren they say the same thing
don't touch it.
And they found that the childrenthat actually you know, went
for the marshmallows even ifthey had been told not to take
it, like they watched them andobserved them over, you know, as
(23:02):
they were growing up, looked athow they were successful in the
future, and they found that thechildren who couldn't delay
gratification struggled morelater on in life, unlike the
children who were able to delaygratification.
So those who were able to delaygratification were able to be
successful later on in life,were able to persevere later on
in life.
(23:22):
So I feel that that one onething to start with, and just
that sense that, yeah, holdingback, waiting your turn, sharing
, you know, turn taking.
We help them start learning tocontrol their, their yeah,
control themselves, and that'sin that way I see.
Sheila Nonato (23:41):
So it's kind of like teaching them in a child's
way the meaning of sacrifice,and this helps them.
Yeah, so it helps them to build.
Is it emotional maturity?
What?
What does this teach them?
Jacqueline Clovis (23:59):
So it teaches them how to yeah, emotional
maturity, I would say, teachesthem how to control their
emotions in such a way that, ok,I need to stop and wait.
And it's interesting because Iam going to be giving an
emotional regulation workshop.
(24:20):
Emotional regulation workshopit will be starting on the 22nd,
so I'm going to be talkingabout how adults can help
children regulate their emotion,because they need adults.
And there was a video I watchedwhere the father told his
daughter not to have chocolateand then he let that he placed
in front of her just similar tothe marshmallow study and he
(24:43):
just left it in front of her andtold her not to have it.
And then he left the room andwhile she was thinking about
what she was going to do withthis chocolate .
.
.
" I'm a good girl, it's's fine,like I can wait.
And then she was, like you know, fiddling around a bit and she
(25:07):
was like, okay, and she was like, okay, I'm going to wait.
And then she was able to talkto herself until her dad came
back and then she had thechocolate.
And when we were just analyzingthe video, it was clear that it
was she was saying what her Dadwould say to her.
(25:28):
It was what her father wouldsay to her, that she was saying
to herself.
And so the parent or the adultbecomes the child's voice, and
the voice they also use tocontrol their emotions.
So she was able to say okay,because what her dad would say
to her, "you're able to do this.
It's fine, wait for daddy.
(25:49):
And that's what she was sayingto herself.
And so it's so important, thewords we say to children.
It's so important becausethat's how they're going to
regulate themselves.
They're going to use the wordsyou teach them to regulate
themselves.
Sheila Nonato (26:18):
Friends, Jacqueline Clovis is running a
seven-day challenge to boostresilience.
It's running from the 22nd ofSeptember to the 28th of
September.
It's running from the 22nd ofSeptember to the 28th of
September and there's also goingto be a resilience webinar at 5
pm GMT on the 28th of Septemberand you can check out more
(26:39):
details on.
Instagram when you're talkingabout saying the words
explaining having a conversationat the dinner table, one of the
things and you know I'mdefinitely not a perfect parent,
so one of the things, one ofthe times my children will say,
Mom, you said not to do that,"Don't eat chocolate before
(27:02):
dinner.
And then I do it, and then theysee it and then they say, oh,
mom, you said not to do that Idon't eat chocolate before
dinner.
And then I do it, and then theysee it and then they say, oh,
mom, you said that.
So how important is it?
And I say, yes, I'm sorry, Idid something that I told you
not to do.
And this is, you know, sort ofthe importance of modeling.
What can you tell me about?
Can you tell us about howimportant is that for a child to
see sort of the words beingmodeled in behavior and in
(27:27):
family life?
Jacqueline Clovis (27:30):
Yes, it is very, very important because
they can read, you know, betweenthe lines.
They understand all these extrathings, even from young, as
from even, I think, from evenone.
They understand the extra likethey just understand.
(27:50):
So basically, they see, "okay,mommy says she didn't have
chocolate before dinner, butshe's having chocolate before
dinner, and so they feel, okay,oh, sometimes mommy can say
something but she doesn't reallymean it, and so they feel okay,
oh, sometimes mommy can saysomething but she doesn't really
mean it, and so they pick it up.
And it's not easy to beconsistent, but it's so
(28:11):
important because that's howthey learn.
They learn through observing,they learn through interacting,
they learn through our words.
But I think that's the, theyabsorb the observation more from
what I've seen, because even,yeah, the slightest thing you do
(28:34):
.
I remember once and I wasworking with some children and I
think I, I picked up, I threw,I think someone threw a pen and
they thought, oh, it was a game,and before you knew it they
started throwing pens, and sothey pick up.
So I think it's very important,it's very important to model
(28:56):
your behavior, how you want themto behave, to speak, how you
want them to speak, to use thewords you want them to use,
because they're just going tocopy it.
They just kind of put adults ona pedestal and whatever the
adult is doing is what should bedone, and they do this for a
very long time.
It takes them a long timebefore they start coming up with
(29:17):
their own opinions and theirown.
They just copy, copy, copy.
So, yes, it's very important tomodel what you want.
Sheila Nonato (29:28):
And in your podcast you were explaining
virtue you were defining as afirm disposition of intellect
and will to do good, and how toincorporate that in everyday
life.
Can you give us some tips?
What are you doing now that wecould sort of incorporate?
And now the kids are at home inCanada and in the United States
(29:50):
I don't know, maybe Britain too, kids are home for the summer.
And how do we incorporatevirtues without making it too,
you know, like school, likethey'd be?
Oh, I don't want to learn.
It's summer, but how do you makeit fun and incorporate virtue
in family life?
Jacqueline Clovis (30:08):
Yes, I think it's getting children involved
in family life, giving themchores and giving them
responsibility.
So one thing I really enjoyedwhen I worked in a Montessori
setting is the concept ofpractical life.
It was incorporated into thecurriculum.
So, for example, the childrenwould help to make their
(30:31):
sandwiches.
The children would help to, youknow, fold napkins and teach
them to fold napkins.
They will have their littlebrush and dustpan to help to
sweep up.
They will have their littlesqueegees to, you know, wipe the
windows.
So I feel like it helps themlearn a lot of virtues as
(30:52):
they're getting involved infamily life in a practical way
helping to set up the dinnertable, helping to stack the
dishwasher.
So I think that's a very goodway of helping them.
So, yeah, just giving themage-appropriate chores.
You can ask a three-year-old tohelp to set up the table.
(31:13):
A three-year-old can help toput some shoes away, some
clothes in the laundry baskets,you know.
So I feel like it'sincorporating, making them get
involved and also things likeand then just explaining how it
links veggies.
So, for example, you can say,okay, as well as setting this
(31:34):
table, let's make it look niceso that the family can have a
nice time.
And I appreciate the effort ofhelping to set the table as well
, so that you're just making it.
I think it's very important tomake it pleasant, a pleasant
experience, because I feel likevirtue is so important and so,
so necessary and so good.
(31:55):
But sometimes on the journey tovirtue it can be so hard, like
people have had really difficultexperiences, and when they grow
up they just say, oh, my momsaid this to me, shouted at me
when I was setting the table,and they just don't realize that
no, she was trying to teach you.
But you know.
So I think it's just to try asmuch as we can to do it in a
(32:17):
loving way.
Another thing is doing practicalthings like planting seeds and
watching them grow and wateringthem.
That teaches you perseverance,because you cannot just speed up
the growth, you have toactually persevere.
Plant it, water it every day.
You know to stick to theprocess and to you know kind of
(32:49):
tame their desire to just rush,to actually watch and be patient
, and so they are learningpatience in planting.
They're learning patience whenthey're even doing chores
generally.
They're learning to yeah thatsacrifice to help others and
then also when they are sharingas well.
That you can also use that toexplain, um, why it's good to
(33:11):
share turn taking.
It's your turn, now it's histurn.
And then the child might becrying oh but I want to play
with the toy or I don't want toshare.
And you explain that you knowwe had.
It's good to share becauseremember how you enjoyed it when
it was your turn.
Now we did.
Wouldn't it be nice if samenjoyed it as much as you
(33:33):
enjoyed it?
Just teaching them about otherpeople's emotions as well.
And yeah, I think it's actuallytied in into practical them
being involved in the family,and through that you can bring
in the composition and it justcomes in naturally.
But if they are not involved inthe house, they are not
(33:55):
involved in anything, or theydon't have any choice, then it's
so hard.
You have to like, force it inbecause they're probably in
their room on their laptop, ontheir phone, and then you now
have to force the composition ofvirtue.
But if they are not in theirroom and they're engaged in the
family life, then it just comesup naturally and you would also
(34:17):
see how they react as well andit will help.
You know what area you need tohelp.
You know help them with inparticular.
So you would see how yourdaughter reacts when she's
trying to set up the table, howshe reacts when it's her day to
put the washing, and then itwill help.
You know, okay, I need to havethis conversation with her about
(34:37):
, you know, helping in thefamily, about why is it a good
thing, about the joy of being afamily member and loving in,
loving your family members, andthis is how we show our love,
through the sacrifice, ouraction, you know.
So I think that is a good wayof bringing it in and then
having like time where you dojoyful things as a family.
(34:59):
Um, you go out together and andyou would observe things as
you're together and you can talkabout it.
Oh, did you notice how that manjumped the queue?
That is not good.
Sometimes people are in a hurry.
Well, we try to think aboutother people, so that's why we
don't jump the queue, you know.
So, even in that, you know, youcan have a conversation about
(35:21):
virtue as well.
Sheila Nonato (35:22):
Even in that you know you can have the
conversation about virtue aswell.
These are all great tips, andI'm just curious what is your
stance on giving rewards?
Do we reward virtue or how dowe encourage it without you know
?
I mean, I guess there's sort ofa some families have a system
of allowances.
So my husband's theory is youknow, the kids have chores and
(35:46):
then if they complete them atthe end of the week, then they
get.
I don't know.
I forgot now.
How much do we give them?
Let's say $5.
And then that goes into.
We give it to them andhopefully they keep it.
We encourage them to put it inthe bank so you can have more
later.
What's your advice?
For you know, do we giverewards for virtues or do we
(36:07):
give the rewards for completingtasks?
Jacqueline Clovis (36:10):
We should put the give, the reward, to
efforts, because what you'retrying to do is you're trying to
teach them how to persevere.
So I feel like that should bethe main focus, like the effort
they put.
So when you tell a child tohelp to do the laundry or yes,
(36:31):
for example, do the laundry andthey actually put effort to do
the laundry and actually youknow, sort out the clothes
really nicely, and you praisethem for the effort and saying I
really like how you sorted outthe clothes, I like how you
responded immediately when Iasked you to do this, and I feel
that helps them persevere overa long period of time.
(36:52):
The thing about only praisingthe outcome is that they become
outcome-based and not thinkingabout the journey, and this
happens a lot with even adults.
So at that point all I wasthinking about was my and this
happens a lot with even adults.
So at that point all I wasthinking about was my outcome,
what I wanted and how I couldn'tcontrol what I wanted, and
that's why I was so upset.
But now when I think about it,I'm like, oh, the journey.
(37:15):
God was working on me, he wasworking in my heart, he was
teaching me, and now Iappreciate the journey more,
like during the journey I'mlearning.
So when I even started doing apodcast, it was just thinking
about the journey.
When I started thinking aboutit from the perspective of how
important the journey itself is,that really helped me because I
(37:36):
thought, okay, this is my firstpodcast and okay, that's fine,
because this is my first one andit's a journey, and it's an
exciting journey.
It's an adventure, you know,and I feel that that is very
important.
But I also see the value ingiving rewards at the end as
well, just intermittently, notall the time.
(37:59):
So, for example, when we tellthe children to tidy up and we
say, if you tidy up, we're goingto give you a sticker, we find
that all the children just starttidying up and we know that,
okay, they're just putting thetoys anyway.
They don't even care if they'reputting it in the right drawer,
because it's all about tidy upand getting a sticker.
And but when sometimes we don'tgive them a sticker and
(38:23):
sometimes we do so sometimes wesay tidy up and we don't say
we're going to give you asticker, it's just tidy up
because that's the right thingto do.
And so I feel that it alsomirrors reality, because
sometimes we do things, we workhard and we get.
You get an A, you get aphysical reward, so that shows
(38:43):
you that sometimes you will geta reward.
But there are other times youmight work hard and you might
not get that reward you hopedfor.
You know, and you work hard andyou didn't get the promotion
you wanted.
Or you work hard to build arelationship or to have this
friend, and after everythingyou've done for this friend, she
still doesn't accept you as herfriend.
So I feel like it's good to doit intermittently build a
relationship or to have thisfriend, and after everything
you've done for this friend, shestill doesn't accept you as her
(39:04):
friend.
So I feel like it's good to doit intermittently if you're
going to use the reward system,so that it's not it's not just,
it doesn't end up just beingabout the reward, because also
the research says that whenchildren just do things for the
reward, they do not see thevalue of the action in itself.
(39:26):
And so there was a research donewhere children were given gold
stars every time they drew andafter a while they just stopped
drawing, even if before theywere given gold stars they were
always drawing.
After introducing the conceptof gold stars.
When you draw, you just feltlike, okay, I just want the gold
star, and then they just stopdrawing.
So, because you want them toget used to giving used to the
(39:52):
process of learning and used tothe process that comes with all
sorts of things in life, youwant to do intermittently and
also you want to praise theefforts as well.
So that's what I would say yeah,okay, do intermittently and
also you want to praise theefforts as well, so that's what
I will say yeah, okay.
So, yeah, I can see what you'resaying about um having the
reward, um, but I guessexplaining also this is you know
(40:15):
, you did a great effort and I'dlike to give, but I guess not
to tie it into like love, right,because we love them regardless
of what they do, right, um, thechildren, um, so yeah, I guess
for me, I find it yeah yeah,sorry, go ahead if you feel okay
.
Oh yeah, I feel like.
Okay, I feel like also, um,every child is different.
(40:39):
So for some children you haveto keep on explaining to them
because they tend to comparethemselves.
But they're all different,they're all motivated by
different things.
So some really need to see thatyou appreciate what they've
done all the time and it's justlike thinking about different
(40:59):
creative ways of sharing thatappreciation.
That does not have to be umextrinsic rewards.
So stickers, money, you know,special treats are extrinsic
rewards, whereas um words ofaffirmation and pride, proud,
being proud of what you've doneand just loving what you do.
(41:20):
They are, they are moreintrinsic and over time you want
to really make them run onintrinsic motivation because
that is more long-lasting, likewhat we see in man's search for
meaning, meaning, love.
It lasts longer.
That's when you're able to domore.
So initially you start withthat, but you slowly start
(41:41):
encouraging them to see thevalue of what they are doing
itself, how it is helping thefamily, how they are
contributing to the family, andso that they actually kind of
start seeing things more fromthat point of view like, oh, the
intrinsic reward even, so thatthey can persevere even when
things are hard, even when itseems like there's no reward,
even when things are long,because even when it seems like
(42:02):
there's no reward, even whenthings are long, because
sometimes things take a longtime you might be learning the
piano and it's going to take along time before you're able to
feel like you can play the piano.
So, yes, well, yes, I thinkexplaining is so important,
because every child is different, they all have different needs,
and explain to them.
This is why, for this person, Ido this.
(42:24):
It's just to help her.
But what if you feel you're nothappy?
Can you tell me what you wouldlike or what you, you know, have
that conversation, so they all.
I think it's all beautiful whenthere's that relationship in
the family where the childrenfeel safe enough to talk about
how they feel, and so that's whythat foundation of just
(42:46):
creating a safe environmentwhere the children can talk
about how they feel or you'restill the adult, so you still
have a routine in place, youstill, you still encourage them
to push themselves, but youstill, you are able to be kind
and firm, and so it helps themto be able to say how they feel
(43:07):
and then you're able to explain.
Okay, this is why I do this, orthis is why we're doing this.
So, yeah, I think that dialoguereally helps.
Sheila Nonato (43:17):
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
And your business name isDetermined to Thrive (on
Instagram; Determined to Achievewebsite).
You're teaching moms, families,children to thrive.
What happens when?
Because we can't win them all.
So what happens when?
There's a difficult lesson, wedid not achieve what we wanted
to achieve, or a child did notpass a test, or something
(43:41):
happened that was not the they,the result they wanted?
How do we, how would he teachthem at that time?
How do we?
What virtue do we teach them atthat time?
Jacqueline Clovis (43:52):
Yeah.
So I think it's so important toprepare children, um to like,
for moments where they're goingto fall.
So I was just I had a poster Iput for roll with the fall,
because people who carry, youknow, do stunts, carry out
stunts they actually learn howto fall well.
(44:14):
So it's part of what they, theylearn they learn how to fall
well.
So when they fall, they puttheir hands forward, they roll
with the fall, and so that'swhere that growth mindset comes
in, from a very young age,teaching them about, like,
resilience, about, um, theeffort is so important.
Because when they see that theeffort is so important, they
(44:35):
would, they would appreciatemore of what they've done and
just say, okay, I did putefforts, I did put in my best
and I didn't get an a or Iactually didn't put in my best,
you know, they're able toactually analyze and see where
they've gone wrong, because theyknow that effort is important.
So even even for them who, fora child who didn't get an e,
(44:59):
you're able to go back and think, okay, what, what went wrong.
They're able to compare theirpapers if they need to, or able
to go to the teacher, becausethat growth mindset always seeks
to learn, so they won't have aproblem with going back to the
teacher and saying, okay, whathappened or how can I improve,
because it's always aboutlearning.
(45:20):
So a lot the research done onthe growth mindset has actually
shown that students with thegrowth mindset would go back to
the teacher, ask questions, findout what, what you know, make
them have the scores they have.
But children with the fixedmindset will struggle to go back
to learn from their mistakes,and so it's really incorporating
(45:43):
the growth mindset in thechildren from a really young age
, and that is from praisingefforts, from teaching them that
you know, life is full ofchallenges with fall.
But teaching them how to fallwell and how children also learn
how to fall well is byobserving the adults around them
(46:05):
.
So when they observe the adults, how do the adults around me
take criticism?
How do the adults around mebounce back from difficulty, and
that teaches them how to bounceback from difficulty.
So when they see, for example,let's say, a family is trying to
move house and the mortgagedoesn't go through, and they are
observing, they observe howtheir parents take the
disappointment and that teachesthem how to take disappointment
(46:29):
as well.
So that's also very important,bouncing back from challenges
and also not running away fromdifficulty as well.
Because what they found wasthat the children with the gross
mindsets were happy to dodifficult puzzles, but the
children with the fixed mindsetwould just stop at the puzzle
(46:52):
that was easiest to do and theywould not want to challenge
themselves.
So also, learning that it'sokay to, you know, challenge
yourself, because while learningyou're learning.
So just really incorporatingthat culture of learning.
And what they also find is thatwhen there's a culture of the
growth mindset in the home or inthe school, then the child is
(47:14):
able to express it more.
So it has to be a familyculture of growth mindset where
we're all learning and we all wemake mistakes and we say you
know, I find like sometimesparents find it very difficult
to say sorry when they make amistake, but they're teaching
the child to be ashamed ofmistakes and it is the child oh,
I should feel bad when I make amistake.
(47:35):
So you see, some children theyspill a spill a drink and
they're just looking at thedrink as it's just dripping down
and it's just like what have Idone?
Oh, my gosh, it's horrible.
I'm a bad person, but spillinga drink is part of life and
happens to anybody.
Even adults spill their drinks.
So the adult is the one that isgoing to help the child
(47:56):
understand how to fall.
Well, like, okay, you spilledthe drink, this happens.
Okay, let's clean it up.
It was like just making themfeel that it's okay sometimes to
make a mistake and I too makemistakes and the most important
thing is that we clean up afterit happens.
(48:17):
You can't just sit there andjust be looking at it.
It's like the attitude ofbouncing back.
Yes, this happened.
Yes, I feel embarrassed, butwhat am I going to do next?
So I feel like that has to.
Yeah, so that's the way to doit really, to really bring in
that growth mindset of bouncingback, falling, falling and
(48:37):
rolling with the fall.
Ok, I don't like what ishappening, but I can learn from
it and I can find out what thecorrect answers are.
I can study harder next time.
And sometimes even the parentcan sit down with them and just
analyze the situation with themand just say, ok, did you
actually put in your best?
Analyze the situation with themand just say, okay, did you
actually put in your best?
(48:57):
I noticed that you're playingvideo games yesterday and you
know to really analyze with them, to help them, and I think this
also strengthens the intellect,because there is always this
battle between the intellect andthe emotion.
And so what you're trying to dois really strengthen the
(49:18):
intellect and not make them.
To make them guided by theintellect and grace, and to do
that you have to keep on makingthem to return to logic and
showing them why.
And showing them, because somepeople would just say, okay, I
should just make them, I shouldjust support them in a way that
does not actually highlight what, what they've done wrong and
(49:38):
that won't help them grow andthat won't help them develop
that intellect.
So they have to see objectivelywhere they've gone wrong, but
you also have to like, be kindabout it and teach them about
self-compassion, and you knowall this thing, yeah.
Sheila Nonato (49:56):
Yes, yes, those are are, yeah, those are great
tips and that will definitelyhelp Catholic families to thrive
.
And I just, uh, finally wantedto look at um, just one of your
podcasts.
You labeled it thriving as acatholic family and you were
talking about you know some tips, you know putting god first,
knowing him, loving him, servingGod, having holy images, holy
(50:20):
photos in the house, having analtar, a set prayer time,
bringing the children to Mass.
What other tips can weincorporate so we can have a
thriving Catholic family, so wecan have a thriving Catholic
family.
Jacqueline Clovis (50:38):
Yes, I think also making them interacting
with good Catholic families aswell is very helpful, so that
they can see other Catholicfamilies and they can have
Catholic friends.
Because what happens is whenthey are really young, they are
just thinking it's only theirparents' opinion they think
about, but as they get to 13 andabove even these days, from
(50:59):
like 9 or even 7, they'realready thinking about, so
they're so engrossed with whattheir friends are doing and
their friends' opinion.
So having Catholic friends willhelp them when they're at that
age where they are just tryingto fit in.
So they actually have Catholicfriends where they are just
trying to fit in and so theyactually have catholic friends.
Um, another thing I think isvery helpful is also making that
(51:21):
inviting priests to dinner ornuns to dinner so they have a
dinner with the family, becausethey sometimes, you have very
good conversations.
So for me, I come from a familyof 11 and I have 12, so at 14,
including my parents, so 12children, and sometimes we'll
have a priest come over and thepriest who would, um, you know,
(51:44):
talk about the faith, and Ifound it very interesting
because they will come from adifferent angle, because after a
while you get so used to yourparents and their angle and it's
nice when the priest now talksabout you know they might even
be saying the same thing, butthey come from a different angle
.
And it's nice when the priestnow talks about you know they
might even be saying the samething, but they come from a
different angle and it touchesyou in a different way.
So that's a nice way of justbringing in, getting them used
to seeing priests and reverendsisters and but the one and they
(52:08):
just have this nice thing.
They have this lovely dinnerwhere they can ask the priest
questions, and so I think that'ssomething that was very nice
that we had in our family.
And another thing that wasreally nice was just learning
Catholic songs.
So we had a family friend whowill come and teach us Catholic
songs and I feel like that wasreally nice.
(52:29):
And then after our nightprayers we will sing those songs
to kind of incorporate it in.
So that is something, yeah,that that really um helps me.
I have like really goodmemories around that.
So, yes, I think it's justimportant to just make the faith
really a joyful thing.
I know it's hard sometimesbecause you're trying to instill
(52:50):
that discipline and the routineand we say rosary now and
that's why I think it's soimportant to bring in joy into
the experience of saying therosary now and that's why I
think it's so important to bringin joy into the experience of
saying the rosary.
And even some mystery.
And I was attending a talk onetime and the speaker was talking
about how, when they were goingto have the rosary, they would
turn off the lights and lightthe candles and the whole place
(53:13):
would be dark and the only thingthat was ringing light was the
candle.
And he just showed like nowit's be dark and the only thing
that was ringing light was thecandle and it just showed, like
now is rosary time.
So things like that, to justbring in that mystery and just
make it interesting and arelative of ours, when they are
seeing the rosary, they let thechildren change the pictures,
like to represent differentmysteries.
So joyful mystery, there willbe a picture and then you know
(53:36):
just different the so joyfulmystery.
There will be a picture andthen.
So you know just different, thefirst joyful mystery.
Then they'll ask the child tochange it and so they are
getting involved.
So I think it's so important.
You might think, oh, this isgoing to make it long.
I think it's so important forthe child to actually get
involved in it because when Ilook at what is happening in the
education system, especiallyhere in UK, they get the
(53:57):
children involved in so manythings and even values that
their families may not hold, andI was just like you know they
are involved in all these thingseven when they are so young,
and it's not the values theirfamily holds.
But imagine if the family wasbeing proactive and letting them
get involved in the things thatrepresent the family's values.
(54:19):
You know the rosary, gettinginvolved in the liturgy, the
colors, and you know, forexample, it's Easter, we're
going to decorate these Eastereggs and we're going to like
when people do the tomb or youknow, and they decorate it in
(54:41):
their families.
I think that's really nice andrepresents the risen lord.
So just incorporating it tomake it like fun and engaging
and show that this is part ofour life and we're joy, we're
happily doing this, we're notforced or we're not miserably
doing this, so I'm not forcedthat or I'm not miserably doing
this and I yeah.
So it's not easy, but I thinkit's so important to just have
that before us as the targetwhere we're headed to, to just
(55:03):
keep us going and yeah yes,
Sheila Nonato (55:09):
Amazing, yeah, and you'll have to come back and
talk to tell us about what itwas like to grow up in a family
of 14.
Next interview, but thank youfor taking the time teaching us,
giving us insights on how tothrive in motherhood and
parenthood in trying to raiseleaders and saints.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
(55:29):
Thank you so much.
God bless and hope to see youagain.
I'll see you again.
Thank you, take care, god blessBye.
See you again.
Oh, I'll see you again.
Thank you, take care, god blessBye.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it Bye.
Thank you to Jacqueline for allthe tips on how to teach and
model Christian virtue to ourchildren.
Her top parent tip of teachingself-regulation mirrors the
(55:52):
virtue modeled by all the saintsthe ability to deny oneself, or
, as we Catholics know it, assacrifice, as Christ modeled for
us.
Sacrifice, meaning the cross,the little crosses we experience
in our daily life, leads to oursalvation.
We can offer up our littlecrosses of the day as housewives
, when we are washing the dishes, making dinner or changing the
(56:13):
baby's diaper.
We can offer that up forsomeone in need that day, for
someone who could use a prayeror for a holy soul needing to be
released from purgatory.
In next week's episode we pickup the conversation with Sister
Helena Burns and the FeminineGenius.
How does that apply to ourparenthood and how do we teach
that to our children?
Thank you and God bless.
(56:34):
Thank you for listening to theVeil and Armour Podcast.
Thank you and God bless.
Hello and Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
Seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(00:27):
.
Co-host (00:27):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (00:35):
Hello Sisters in Christ! Welcome to the Veil and
Armour podcast.
This week we have JacquelineClovis, a Catholic mindset coach
and CEO of Determined toAchieve in the UK.
As it is back to school seasonand parent-teacher interviews
will be coming up in a couple ofmonths or so, one question you
may want to ask your child'steacher is if character
education is part of theschool's curriculum and focus.
(00:57):
Character education is relatedto the practice of virtue.
How do we instill and modelthese virtues for our children?
Jacqueline will start off theconversation by revealing how
she was intrigued to look at theintersection of faith and
psychology after reading thebook by Holocaust survivor
Viktor Frankl called "Man'sSearch for Meaning.
Let's listen to Jacqueline.
(01:18):
Give us some tips on teachingvirtue to our children so they
can grow up to become leadersand saints.
Jacqueline Clovis (01:23):
In the name of the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Come, Holy Spirit.
Enlighten our intellects andstrengthen our wills.
Give us the grace to do yourwill.
Our Lady Seat of Wisdom, Prayfor us.
In the name of the Father andof the Son, and of the Holy
Spirit, amen, amen.
Sheila Nonato (01:42):
Thank you very much, and I'm just going to
introduce our guest today.
Jacqueline Clovis is thefounder of Determined to Achieve
.
She is a certified life coach.
She studied psychology and hasspent the past decade
researching human personalities,behavior and the mind, with a
special interest in motivationalpsychology and human happiness.
(02:04):
Having worked with nursery-agedchildren for the past 10 years,
she has observed the effects offamily life and family values
on child development and offersworkshops and one-to-one
childhood consulting to helpparents support their young
children.
She is particularly skilled athelping young children reach
their developmental milestones.
(02:24):
She's also passionate abouthelping adults thrive.
So, drawing from her experienceand research, she offers
workshops, talks and one-on-onecoaching.
Using a Christian perspective,she helps adults discover their
unique purpose, transform theirmindsets and unlock their
potential so that they can livean authentic, joyful and
(02:54):
fulfilling life.
Welcome, Jacqueline, from Kentin England.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you so first off, yeah,we want to know about you.
How did you get into Catholicmindset coaching?
Jacqueline Clovis (03:04):
Yes, so I studied psychology and I always
felt like there was more.
I just felt like all thetheories were incomplete.
And somebody gave me the book"Man's Search for Meaning and
when I read it it was justtalking about the power of
purpose and it was written byVictor Franco, who was in the
(03:24):
concentration camps, and heobserved that him and other
people who were able to survivein the concentration camps were
people that had a strong senseof purpose, they were praying or
they were like thinking abouttheir families.
So that kind of sparks myinterest.
Because I was just thinkingabout how powerful purpose is
(03:45):
and I just felt like why has?
Why didn't anybody say this?
You know, while I was studying,and so I read, I also read a
book about mental health and itwas just talking about you know
how a mentally healthy personshould have high ethical
standards, should be generous,should be somebody who forgives,
and I was just thinking tomyself like you know what these
(04:07):
are virtues you know and for.
So that sparked this interestand I always saw I wanted to be
a life coach, because I lovemotivating people and helping
people unlock their fullpotential.
But I didn't.
I started, I thought about itand then I didn't have the
courage to do it because peoplejust kept telling me different
(04:28):
things like um no, you know,when you're doing psychology,
you cannot mention God andthings like that.
But I was just like I reallywant to do this, I really love
you know, just looking at themind and human behavior.
But I want to do it in aCatholic way, in a Christian way
, and it took me a long time toactually set up my own business
(04:51):
and actually like get certifiedas a life coach and just say,
yes, this is what I'm doing.
Even if it's just one personthat understands what I'm trying
to say and understands whyvirtue is important, and
understand I don't mind, like Ijust have to do this because
it's just a passion, it's justsomething that won't go away.
I mean, I've heard someone saythat dreams are just these
(05:12):
desires that just won't go away,and that's how it was for me.
I just always felt like Ireally want to do this, I really
want to motivate people, Ireally want to help people
unlock their potential.
And also, when I worked in likenurseries, I just saw this
whole concept of, like you know,the children's potential and
how sometimes it gets missed,and I just felt like I need
(05:33):
something where I can just focuson helping them unlock their
potential without restriction.
Sheila Nonato (05:39):
So, yeah, awesome and you.
In one of your podcasts youwere mentioning how you study
psychology and how psychology,how the catholic faith completes
psychology.
Can you explain a little bit?
Jacqueline Clovis (05:53):
Yes, so we in psychology, the main aim is to
understand, you know, humanbehaviour and in order for us to
be able to control and predictit.
And I feel like when we look atall the theories out there,
there is always this concept ofokay.
(06:14):
For example, when they say theytalk about motivation and they
just say, okay, we're eithermotivated by the desire to avoid
pain or to move towardspleasure, by the desire to avoid
pain or to move towardspleasure.
And there was a time wheresomeone did some work with the
dolphins and she realized thatdolphins were not reacting the
same way.
(06:34):
It wasn't just about pleasureand pain.
And she had to change her styleand think about okay, I have to
create a pattern where thedolphin knows when I'm going to
give this fish and when it'sgoing to jump.
And so for me, I just felt likethere was always just something
incomplete.
I was looking at, like, forexample, sigmund, for it just
(06:57):
talking about oh, man just wantspleasure.
And I just felt that is justnot enough.
Like how do you explain ViktorFrankl and these other people
surviving in concentration campsif it's just all about pleasure
?
And there was no pleasure.
They were suffering and theyhad.
There was something else.
Well, you know, I guess thefaith in the way of saying like,
(07:22):
oh, you know, we should giveeverybody positive,
unconditional positive regardand things like that, but it's
just still incomplete, becausethey just say you can determine
your happiness or you is justabout you.
So I just felt like there wasjust nothing completely saying
(07:44):
the full picture.
And when I myself went through apoint in my life where I didn't
get what I wanted and I felt sosad and down and I just felt
like, oh, I already have, I havefaith, and I felt like I
believe and I've believed.
Like you know, when they saybelieve, just believe, and it's
like, but I just believe.
And then I just realized thatthere is also the will of God in
(08:04):
all these things.
And there was a point where Ijust said, okay, lord, I accept
your will.
And the moment I said that, Ijust felt peace in my heart and
it was so clear to me that, wow,this was actually the obstacle
for me, this was what waskeeping me from being happy, me
fighting with you, what the willof God was for me.
And I just felt so much peaceand I remember even calling my
(08:27):
sister and just saying I feel somuch peace right now and ever
since then it made me realizethat some people who are
struggling with depression oreven different mental illnesses
where they're feeling low mood,it might actually be them
resisting the will of God intheir life or it might actually
be spiritual, because for me Ifelt it was, and so I just
(08:51):
really want to help those peoplein that category who might
actually be struggling withtheir mindset, might actually
just be in the way or they'restruggling with the will of God
in their lives or they're goingthrough difficulty and they feel
hopeless.
So just helping people on thatpath and I've just noticed, like
for Catholics, there is a range.
There is either some peoplewould have a lot of faith but
(09:15):
not want to do anything, becauseit just feels like, oh, I
already have faith and I don'thave to do anything, and then
some people would want to doeverything on their own and
forget that we have to work withGod.
And so I always think aboutSaint Augustine's uh, saint
Augustine's book, where he saysthat we should pray, as if
without prayer we can't get whatwe want, and we should work, as
(09:37):
if without working we can't getwhat we want.
So that always helps me balancemyself when I'm tilting to one
side or the other, and so that'swhy I think it's strongly
linked, because when you havepeace of mind, I think you're
able to pray better and able toconcentrate and able to carry
out your God-giving purpose andalso the whole aim.
(09:59):
What they're trying to do isalso, at end of the day,
understand human behavior, andthe faith actually explains it
in in totality.
When you look at the works ofThomas Aquinas, or even then
Francis de Sales, or thenAlphonsus Liguori, some of their
writings really talk abouthuman desires, how to live a
virtuous life, and it's sobeautiful because one thing
(10:24):
about virtue is that it's the,it's the balance between two
extremes.
So if, for example, courage,the balance between being
fearful, timid and being rash,so it's just that balance, and
so when you have that balance,you are happier.
Even ancient philosophers havespoken about this, that when you
(10:46):
they they spoke about the fourcardinal virtues.
They always spoke abouttemperance, prudence, wisdom and
justice, because they, just byusing their logic, they could
see that this is actually, youknow, this actually brings us
happiness, and so I feel likethe faith actually has
everything.
The faith draws us to virtue andthen the grace of God as well,
(11:10):
giving us that peace anddirection and God wants the best
for us and loves us so much andjust knowing that, wow, there's
someone out there that loves meunconditionally.
There was one time I came acrossthis page and it's all about
positivity and I was reallyhappy because I love positivity,
and on the page it had thisthing, this quote, saying
(11:32):
there's somebody out there thatloves you, and I just felt like,
wow, that just feels.
It feels nice to say that, butit's still not as complete as
the saying Jesus loves you andloves you unconditionally.
I can actually say I know thisperson and it's God and he loves
me unconditionally and, yes, sothat's how it just ties in.
(11:53):
I think they just flow intoeach other.
When you're trying to, you know, be healthy, mentally healthy
and have a good spiritual lifevery deep into your life, you
just realize that everythingjust flows.
So I feel like they worktogether.
We are mind, body and soul andwe have to bring everything
together and work in harmony,and the faith helps us do that.
Sheila Nonato (12:19):
And when you mentioned positivity, you
mentioned Viktor Frankl and"Man's Search for Meaning.
So he is a survivor of theHolocaust, correct?
What can we learn from him,from his book about positivity,
living a virtuous life and faith?
How can we apply that tomothers, to family life, to
(12:42):
children?
Jacqueline Clovis (12:43):
Yeah, everyday life.
So I'll say it's all aboutfinding meaning in everything
that we do and just that senseof purpose in everything that we
do.
And our faith helps us in avery big way because it tells us
that, okay, if you're a mom,your purpose is, you know, being
a good wife, being a goodmother.
(13:05):
If you are searching, yourpurpose at that point is to be
open to the will of God, findout what God is asking you.
But ultimately we have thisgeneral purpose to love, to love
God and neighbor.
And when Jesus was asked whatis the greatest commandment, he
said love God with all yourwhole heart, with all your whole
(13:26):
mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
So that gives us a generalpurpose.
And I think St Therese ofLisieux says my vocation is to
love.
So that gives us this generalpurpose, that even when you're
not sure what is going on, youcan just say okay, how am I
loving today, how am I lovingGod and neighbour today?
And that really love has pulledpeople through all sorts of
(13:51):
things.
I think is the strongestmotivating factor.
So when you think about victorfranco and people that survive,
is that okay?
We're praying to god, that hopegod loves me.
So, even if I'm in adevastating situation, I'm going
to still pray, and just thelove also for their family,
thinking, okay, I have tosurvive for my family.
(14:11):
And so it's coming back to loveas the strongest motivating
factor.
Also, there is a book called "eLeadeth Me where it's about a
police priest also in a camp aswell, where he had to struggle
to survive and sometimes hewould still find a way to do the
(14:33):
math secretly.
And it was still the sameconcept of love.
Love was what was sustaininghim, even in the difficulty of
the prison, and it was just sobeautiful and it just showed me
again that ultimately, love isthe greatest motivating factor.
(14:54):
It's the greatest way to liveyour life.
If you really want to live afulfilling life, you should be,
like, always thinking about love.
How am I loving God?
How am I loving neighbor?
Sheila Nonato (15:05):
You know, and yeah, that's what I would say
love yes, and love stems from,or goes hand in hand with,
virtue.
How do we teach virtue to ourchildren?
Jacqueline Clovis (15:19):
Yes, it's, yeah, it's very interesting.
What I find is that childrenhave a tendency towards a
certain virtue and might.
So I feel the first thing is toobserve the child and see where
they are and slowly introduceit in, you know, in everyday
life.
So, for example, when I'veworked with little children, I
(15:42):
will see that some have thetendency to want to share.
You know they're kind, theyhave a toy, another child wants
that toy and they want to share,and some just don't.
And you have to be there toencourage them and say, okay,
would you like to share withyour friend?
She's waiting really nicely.
And so it's just you yourselfreally being there to guide them
(16:05):
, inspire them and just noticewhat they need.
You know, because I feel thatit's so effective when you
actually teach them when theyneed it, especially because I
think it's good to have generalrules about virtue in the home
and I also think it's good tohave like one-on-one time where
(16:27):
you're actually supporting thechild individually to develop
the virtue they need.
Because sometimes you also find, like some children, for
example, might have the tendencytowards kindness but they might
not have enough courage tospeak up for themselves and they
might feel, okay, I'm beingkind and I don't know how to say
no to this other child, and youhave to be there for them, to
(16:51):
encourage them.
That kindness is good, you'reright when you're kind, but
sometimes you have to say no,and that is good.
It's virtuous as well to knowwhen to say no.
So I feel like incorporating itin is very good, and I think
it's also a good idea toactually talk about virtue in
the room, maybe during thedinner time, or just bring it up
(17:14):
in conversation, because Ithink there's just not enough
talk about virtue.
And this also inspired me tomake a game called " jesus,
where I just, you know, teachchildren about virtues and the
faith.
So it's basically very similarto snakes and ladders, where
things you know take you up anddown.
(17:35):
So good things take you up inthis game and bad things take
you down.
So, for example, "rude toparents will take you down,
gluttony takes you down, beinghelpful will take you up, and
the whole aim is to get to Jesusand so that way that they're
having that conversation.
Oh what, what is?
Why is gluttony bad?
What is gluttony and thingslike that?
(17:57):
And then in the game there isum dying immortals, and you
don't want that one, because yougo out of the game and then you
have, um, you have, yeah, atthe end getting to Jesus, like
just thinking about, yes, I wantto be ultimately, I want to be
good so that I can be pleasingto God.
(18:17):
And also it's amazing how theway God made us is in is in.
It's such an amazing thingbecause thing because he calls
us to this life of holiness andlife of virtue, and then he
still rewards us for doing it.
So there's still that rewardyou get, even in life, just for
(18:40):
being a virtuous person.
People can trust you, peoplecan rely on you.
You know you feel that peace inon you.
You know you are, you feel thatpeace in you because you know,
oh, I'm not lying, I'm an honestperson, you know.
So you just get all theserewards.
And also virtue also leads youto being successful in whatever
you're doing.
You can achieve whatever youset your mind to because you
(19:01):
have that virtue of disciplineyou are, you have that virtue of
temperance.
It helps you achieve the aimsyou have set for yourself.
So, yes, I think also making itfun.
So that's why the game is hereas well, to make you fun and
because it's you have to goagainst our nature.
So that's where the difficultyis.
So it's so important to make itfun, make it a discussion, make
(19:25):
it something that they get usedto hearing about.
And in the secondary school Iwent to, we always had the
virtue of the month, and everymonth we'll talk about that
virtue and talk about how we canum, you know, instill that
virtue or incorporate it intoour learning.
For example, there was a monththat we had order, and so we,
(19:50):
when we go back to the classroom, we would be asked to come up
with ways we can show order inour everyday life.
And so we'll be.
We'll come up with things likeoh, a virtuous girl, like an
orderly girl, has her lockertidy.
An orderly girl makes sure heruniform is tidy.
You know all these kinds ofthings, and so that way you're
(20:10):
looking at ways of incorporatingit in and practical ways.
How does it look like what?
How does it look like when I'morderly?
How does it look like when I'mhonest?
How does it look like when I ampracticing the virtue of
temperance?
So I think incorporating itinto everyday life and having
that conversation would make itpart of everyday life.
Sheila Nonato (20:33):
What would you say would be are there such
things as the top, let's say thetop three virtues for children
Like what?
Or is there such a thing, aneasy virtue to teach children?
Co-host (20:47):
to learn.
Jacqueline Clovis (20:48):
Okay.
So I think I think one of themost important things that you
can start from a very early ageis teaching them how to, I guess
, practice that sense ofdelaying gratification.
So I think delayinggratification is a very big
(21:10):
thing.
With the growth mindset, it'salways talking about you know
being able to learn and lovelearning, and so I'm always
trying to encourage people toadopt a growth mindset and help
their children cultivate thegrowth mindset.
So, for example, praising theefforts they put in and not just
(21:30):
saying, okay, you completedyour homework, that's been well
done, but what about?
I like the way you put effortsand you persevered until you
completed your homework.
So encourage those behaviorsand I feel like delaying
gratification if you can justsay, okay, you want this toy,
for example, now, but it's timeto have dinner, you can have it
(21:55):
after dinner.
And there's there's just a lotof research showing that when
children can delay theirgratification, it helps them,
you know, succeed later on inlife.
So there was actually a studydone on what is called the
marshmallow test, where childrenwere given.
There were two groups ofchildren.
The first group of childrenthey were given marshmallows and
(22:18):
and they were just marshmallowsplaced in front of them and the
adult will leave the room.
Just like what we see sometimesonline there this test where
they put sweets in front of thechild and leave the room and
they, but before they leave theroom, they give the instruction
saying don't take it until Icome back.
And the first group they saydon't, they don't touch it until
(22:40):
we come back.
The marshmallows are there,when we come back you can have.
And then they leave the room.
And then the second group ofchildren they say the same thing
don't touch it.
And they found that the childrenthat actually you know, went
for the marshmallows even ifthey had been told not to take
it, like they watched them andobserved them over, you know, as
(23:02):
they were growing up, looked athow they were successful in the
future, and they found that thechildren who couldn't delay
gratification struggled morelater on in life, unlike the
children who were able to delaygratification.
So those who were able to delaygratification were able to be
successful later on in life,were able to persevere later on
in life.
(23:22):
So I feel that that one onething to start with, and just
that sense that, yeah, holdingback, waiting your turn, sharing
, you know, turn taking.
We help them start learning tocontrol their, their yeah,
control themselves, and that'sin that way I see.
Sheila Nonato (23:41):
So it's kind of like teaching them in a child's
way the meaning of sacrifice,and this helps them.
Yeah, so it helps them to build.
Is it emotional maturity?
What?
What does this teach them?
Jacqueline Clovis (23:59):
So it teaches them how to yeah, emotional
maturity, I would say, teachesthem how to control their
emotions in such a way that, ok,I need to stop and wait.
And it's interesting because Iam going to be giving an
emotional regulation workshop.
(24:20):
Emotional regulation workshopit will be starting on the 22nd,
so I'm going to be talkingabout how adults can help
children regulate their emotion,because they need adults.
And there was a video I watchedwhere the father told his
daughter not to have chocolateand then he let that he placed
in front of her just similar tothe marshmallow study and he
(24:43):
just left it in front of her andtold her not to have it.
And then he left the room andwhile she was thinking about
what she was going to do withthis chocolate .
.
.
" I'm a good girl, it's's fine,like I can wait.
And then she was, like you know, fiddling around a bit and she
(25:07):
was like, okay, and she was like, okay, I'm going to wait.
And then she was able to talkto herself until her dad came
back and then she had thechocolate.
And when we were just analyzingthe video, it was clear that it
was she was saying what her Dadwould say to her.
(25:28):
It was what her father wouldsay to her, that she was saying
to herself.
And so the parent or the adultbecomes the child's voice, and
the voice they also use tocontrol their emotions.
So she was able to say okay,because what her dad would say
to her, "you're able to do this.
It's fine, wait for daddy.
(25:49):
And that's what she was sayingto herself.
And so it's so important, thewords we say to children.
It's so important becausethat's how they're going to
regulate themselves.
They're going to use the wordsyou teach them to regulate
themselves.
Sheila Nonato (26:18):
Friends, Jacqueline Clovis is running a
seven-day challenge to boostresilience.
It's running from the 22nd ofSeptember to the 28th of
September.
It's running from the 22nd ofSeptember to the 28th of
September and there's also goingto be a resilience webinar at 5
pm GMT on the 28th of Septemberand you can check out more
(26:39):
details on.
Instagram when you're talkingabout saying the words
explaining having a conversationat the dinner table, one of the
things and you know I'mdefinitely not a perfect parent,
so one of the things, one ofthe times my children will say,
Mom, you said not to do that,"Don't eat chocolate before
(27:02):
dinner.
And then I do it, and then theysee it and then they say, oh,
mom, you said not to do that Idon't eat chocolate before
dinner.
And then I do it, and then theysee it and then they say, oh,
mom, you said that.
So how important is it?
And I say, yes, I'm sorry, Idid something that I told you
not to do.
And this is, you know, sort ofthe importance of modeling.
What can you tell me about?
Can you tell us about howimportant is that for a child to
see sort of the words beingmodeled in behavior and in
(27:27):
family life?
Jacqueline Clovis (27:30):
Yes, it is very, very important because
they can read, you know, betweenthe lines.
They understand all these extrathings, even from young, as
from even, I think, from evenone.
They understand the extra likethey just understand.
(27:50):
So basically, they see, "okay,mommy says she didn't have
chocolate before dinner, butshe's having chocolate before
dinner, and so they feel, okay,oh, sometimes mommy can say
something but she doesn't reallymean it, and so they feel okay,
oh, sometimes mommy can saysomething but she doesn't really
mean it, and so they pick it up.
And it's not easy to beconsistent, but it's so
(28:11):
important because that's howthey learn.
They learn through observing,they learn through interacting,
they learn through our words.
But I think that's the, theyabsorb the observation more from
what I've seen, because even,yeah, the slightest thing you do
(28:34):
.
I remember once and I wasworking with some children and I
think I, I picked up, I threw,I think someone threw a pen and
they thought, oh, it was a game,and before you knew it they
started throwing pens, and sothey pick up.
So I think it's very important,it's very important to model
(28:56):
your behavior, how you want themto behave, to speak, how you
want them to speak, to use thewords you want them to use,
because they're just going tocopy it.
They just kind of put adults ona pedestal and whatever the
adult is doing is what should bedone, and they do this for a
very long time.
It takes them a long timebefore they start coming up with
(29:17):
their own opinions and theirown.
They just copy, copy, copy.
So, yes, it's very important tomodel what you want.
Sheila Nonato (29:28):
And in your podcast you were explaining
virtue you were defining as afirm disposition of intellect
and will to do good, and how toincorporate that in everyday
life.
Can you give us some tips?
What are you doing now that wecould sort of incorporate?
And now the kids are at home inCanada and in the United States
(29:50):
I don't know, maybe Britain too, kids are home for the summer.
And how do we incorporatevirtues without making it too,
you know, like school, likethey'd be?
Oh, I don't want to learn.
It's summer, but how do you makeit fun and incorporate virtue
in family life?
Jacqueline Clovis (30:08):
Yes, I think it's getting children involved
in family life, giving themchores and giving them
responsibility.
So one thing I really enjoyedwhen I worked in a Montessori
setting is the concept ofpractical life.
It was incorporated into thecurriculum.
So, for example, the childrenwould help to make their
(30:31):
sandwiches.
The children would help to, youknow, fold napkins and teach
them to fold napkins.
They will have their littlebrush and dustpan to help to
sweep up.
They will have their littlesqueegees to, you know, wipe the
windows.
So I feel like it helps themlearn a lot of virtues as
(30:52):
they're getting involved infamily life in a practical way
helping to set up the dinnertable, helping to stack the
dishwasher.
So I think that's a very goodway of helping them.
So, yeah, just giving themage-appropriate chores.
You can ask a three-year-old tohelp to set up the table.
(31:13):
A three-year-old can help toput some shoes away, some
clothes in the laundry baskets,you know.
So I feel like it'sincorporating, making them get
involved and also things likeand then just explaining how it
links veggies.
So, for example, you can say,okay, as well as setting this
(31:34):
table, let's make it look niceso that the family can have a
nice time.
And I appreciate the effort ofhelping to set the table as well
, so that you're just making it.
I think it's very important tomake it pleasant, a pleasant
experience, because I feel likevirtue is so important and so,
so necessary and so good.
(31:55):
But sometimes on the journey tovirtue it can be so hard, like
people have had really difficultexperiences, and when they grow
up they just say, oh, my momsaid this to me, shouted at me
when I was setting the table,and they just don't realize that
no, she was trying to teach you.
But you know.
So I think it's just to try asmuch as we can to do it in a
(32:17):
loving way.
Another thing is doing practicalthings like planting seeds and
watching them grow and wateringthem.
That teaches you perseverance,because you cannot just speed up
the growth, you have toactually persevere.
Plant it, water it every day.
You know to stick to theprocess and to you know kind of
(32:49):
tame their desire to just rush,to actually watch and be patient
, and so they are learningpatience in planting.
They're learning patience whenthey're even doing chores
generally.
They're learning to yeah thatsacrifice to help others and
then also when they are sharingas well.
That you can also use that toexplain, um, why it's good to
(33:11):
share turn taking.
It's your turn, now it's histurn.
And then the child might becrying oh but I want to play
with the toy or I don't want toshare.
And you explain that you knowwe had.
It's good to share becauseremember how you enjoyed it when
it was your turn.
Now we did.
Wouldn't it be nice if samenjoyed it as much as you
(33:33):
enjoyed it?
Just teaching them about otherpeople's emotions as well.
And yeah, I think it's actuallytied in into practical them
being involved in the family,and through that you can bring
in the composition and it justcomes in naturally.
But if they are not involved inthe house, they are not
(33:55):
involved in anything, or theydon't have any choice, then it's
so hard.
You have to like, force it inbecause they're probably in
their room on their laptop, ontheir phone, and then you now
have to force the composition ofvirtue.
But if they are not in theirroom and they're engaged in the
family life, then it just comesup naturally and you would also
(34:17):
see how they react as well andit will help.
You know what area you need tohelp.
You know help them with inparticular.
So you would see how yourdaughter reacts when she's
trying to set up the table, howshe reacts when it's her day to
put the washing, and then itwill help.
You know, okay, I need to havethis conversation with her about
(34:37):
, you know, helping in thefamily, about why is it a good
thing, about the joy of being afamily member and loving in,
loving your family members, andthis is how we show our love,
through the sacrifice, ouraction, you know.
So I think that is a good wayof bringing it in and then
having like time where you dojoyful things as a family.
(34:59):
Um, you go out together and andyou would observe things as
you're together and you can talkabout it.
Oh, did you notice how that manjumped the queue?
That is not good.
Sometimes people are in a hurry.
Well, we try to think aboutother people, so that's why we
don't jump the queue, you know.
So, even in that, you know, youcan have a conversation about
(35:21):
virtue as well.
Sheila Nonato (35:22):
Even in that you know you can have the
conversation about virtue aswell.
These are all great tips, andI'm just curious what is your
stance on giving rewards?
Do we reward virtue or how dowe encourage it without you know
?
I mean, I guess there's sort ofa some families have a system
of allowances.
So my husband's theory is youknow, the kids have chores and
(35:46):
then if they complete them atthe end of the week, then they
get.
I don't know.
I forgot now.
How much do we give them?
Let's say $5.
And then that goes into.
We give it to them andhopefully they keep it.
We encourage them to put it inthe bank so you can have more
later.
What's your advice?
For you know, do we giverewards for virtues or do we
(36:07):
give the rewards for completingtasks?
Jacqueline Clovis (36:10):
We should put the give, the reward, to
efforts, because what you'retrying to do is you're trying to
teach them how to persevere.
So I feel like that should bethe main focus, like the effort
they put.
So when you tell a child tohelp to do the laundry or yes,
(36:31):
for example, do the laundry andthey actually put effort to do
the laundry and actually youknow, sort out the clothes
really nicely, and you praisethem for the effort and saying I
really like how you sorted outthe clothes, I like how you
responded immediately when Iasked you to do this, and I feel
that helps them persevere overa long period of time.
(36:52):
The thing about only praisingthe outcome is that they become
outcome-based and not thinkingabout the journey, and this
happens a lot with even adults.
So at that point all I wasthinking about was my and this
happens a lot with even adults.
So at that point all I wasthinking about was my outcome,
what I wanted and how I couldn'tcontrol what I wanted, and
that's why I was so upset.
But now when I think about it,I'm like, oh, the journey.
(37:15):
God was working on me, he wasworking in my heart, he was
teaching me, and now Iappreciate the journey more,
like during the journey I'mlearning.
So when I even started doing apodcast, it was just thinking
about the journey.
When I started thinking aboutit from the perspective of how
important the journey itself is,that really helped me because I
(37:36):
thought, okay, this is my firstpodcast and okay, that's fine,
because this is my first one andit's a journey, and it's an
exciting journey.
It's an adventure, you know,and I feel that that is very
important.
But I also see the value ingiving rewards at the end as
well, just intermittently, notall the time.
(37:59):
So, for example, when we tellthe children to tidy up and we
say, if you tidy up, we're goingto give you a sticker, we find
that all the children just starttidying up and we know that,
okay, they're just putting thetoys anyway.
They don't even care if they'reputting it in the right drawer,
because it's all about tidy upand getting a sticker.
And but when sometimes we don'tgive them a sticker and
(38:23):
sometimes we do so sometimes wesay tidy up and we don't say
we're going to give you asticker, it's just tidy up
because that's the right thingto do.
And so I feel that it alsomirrors reality, because
sometimes we do things, we workhard and we get.
You get an A, you get aphysical reward, so that shows
(38:43):
you that sometimes you will geta reward.
But there are other times youmight work hard and you might
not get that reward you hopedfor.
You know, and you work hard andyou didn't get the promotion
you wanted.
Or you work hard to build arelationship or to have this
friend, and after everythingyou've done for this friend, she
still doesn't accept you as herfriend.
So I feel like it's good to doit intermittently build a
relationship or to have thisfriend, and after everything
you've done for this friend, shestill doesn't accept you as her
(39:04):
friend.
So I feel like it's good to doit intermittently if you're
going to use the reward system,so that it's not it's not just,
it doesn't end up just beingabout the reward, because also
the research says that whenchildren just do things for the
reward, they do not see thevalue of the action in itself.
(39:26):
And so there was a research donewhere children were given gold
stars every time they drew andafter a while they just stopped
drawing, even if before theywere given gold stars they were
always drawing.
After introducing the conceptof gold stars.
When you draw, you just feltlike, okay, I just want the gold
star, and then they just stopdrawing.
So, because you want them toget used to giving used to the
(39:52):
process of learning and used tothe process that comes with all
sorts of things in life, youwant to do intermittently and
also you want to praise theefforts as well.
So that's what I would say yeah,okay, do intermittently and
also you want to praise theefforts as well, so that's what
I will say yeah, okay.
So, yeah, I can see what you'resaying about um having the
reward, um, but I guessexplaining also this is you know
(40:15):
, you did a great effort and I'dlike to give, but I guess not
to tie it into like love, right,because we love them regardless
of what they do, right, um, thechildren, um, so yeah, I guess
for me, I find it yeah yeah,sorry, go ahead if you feel okay
.
Oh yeah, I feel like.
Okay, I feel like also, um,every child is different.
(40:39):
So for some children you haveto keep on explaining to them
because they tend to comparethemselves.
But they're all different,they're all motivated by
different things.
So some really need to see thatyou appreciate what they've
done all the time and it's justlike thinking about different
(40:59):
creative ways of sharing thatappreciation.
That does not have to be umextrinsic rewards.
So stickers, money, you know,special treats are extrinsic
rewards, whereas um words ofaffirmation and pride, proud,
being proud of what you've doneand just loving what you do.
(41:20):
They are, they are moreintrinsic and over time you want
to really make them run onintrinsic motivation because
that is more long-lasting, likewhat we see in man's search for
meaning, meaning, love.
It lasts longer.
That's when you're able to domore.
So initially you start withthat, but you slowly start
(41:41):
encouraging them to see thevalue of what they are doing
itself, how it is helping thefamily, how they are
contributing to the family, andso that they actually kind of
start seeing things more fromthat point of view like, oh, the
intrinsic reward even, so thatthey can persevere even when
things are hard, even when itseems like there's no reward,
even when things are long,because even when it seems like
(42:02):
there's no reward, even whenthings are long, because
sometimes things take a longtime you might be learning the
piano and it's going to take along time before you're able to
feel like you can play the piano.
So, yes, well, yes, I thinkexplaining is so important,
because every child is different, they all have different needs,
and explain to them.
This is why, for this person, Ido this.
(42:24):
It's just to help her.
But what if you feel you're nothappy?
Can you tell me what you wouldlike or what you, you know, have
that conversation, so they all.
I think it's all beautiful whenthere's that relationship in
the family where the childrenfeel safe enough to talk about
how they feel, and so that's whythat foundation of just
(42:46):
creating a safe environmentwhere the children can talk
about how they feel or you'restill the adult, so you still
have a routine in place, youstill, you still encourage them
to push themselves, but youstill, you are able to be kind
and firm, and so it helps themto be able to say how they feel
(43:07):
and then you're able to explain.
Okay, this is why I do this, orthis is why we're doing this.
So, yeah, I think that dialoguereally helps.
Sheila Nonato (43:17):
Yeah, yes, absolutely.
And your business name isDetermined to Thrive (on
Instagram; Determined to Achievewebsite).
You're teaching moms, families,children to thrive.
What happens when?
Because we can't win them all.
So what happens when?
There's a difficult lesson, wedid not achieve what we wanted
to achieve, or a child did notpass a test, or something
(43:41):
happened that was not the they,the result they wanted?
How do we, how would he teachthem at that time?
How do we?
What virtue do we teach them atthat time?
Jacqueline Clovis (43:52):
Yeah.
So I think it's so important toprepare children, um to like,
for moments where they're goingto fall.
So I was just I had a poster Iput for roll with the fall,
because people who carry, youknow, do stunts, carry out
stunts they actually learn howto fall well.
(44:14):
So it's part of what they, theylearn they learn how to fall
well.
So when they fall, they puttheir hands forward, they roll
with the fall, and so that'swhere that growth mindset comes
in, from a very young age,teaching them about, like,
resilience, about, um, theeffort is so important.
Because when they see that theeffort is so important, they
(44:35):
would, they would appreciatemore of what they've done and
just say, okay, I did putefforts, I did put in my best
and I didn't get an a or Iactually didn't put in my best,
you know, they're able toactually analyze and see where
they've gone wrong, because theyknow that effort is important.
So even even for them who, fora child who didn't get an e,
(44:59):
you're able to go back and think, okay, what, what went wrong.
They're able to compare theirpapers if they need to, or able
to go to the teacher, becausethat growth mindset always seeks
to learn, so they won't have aproblem with going back to the
teacher and saying, okay, whathappened or how can I improve,
because it's always aboutlearning.
(45:20):
So a lot the research done onthe growth mindset has actually
shown that students with thegrowth mindset would go back to
the teacher, ask questions, findout what, what you know, make
them have the scores they have.
But children with the fixedmindset will struggle to go back
to learn from their mistakes,and so it's really incorporating
(45:43):
the growth mindset in thechildren from a really young age
, and that is from praisingefforts, from teaching them that
you know, life is full ofchallenges with fall.
But teaching them how to fallwell and how children also learn
how to fall well is byobserving the adults around them
(46:05):
.
So when they observe the adults, how do the adults around me
take criticism?
How do the adults around mebounce back from difficulty, and
that teaches them how to bounceback from difficulty.
So when they see, for example,let's say, a family is trying to
move house and the mortgagedoesn't go through, and they are
observing, they observe howtheir parents take the
disappointment and that teachesthem how to take disappointment
(46:29):
as well.
So that's also very important,bouncing back from challenges
and also not running away fromdifficulty as well.
Because what they found wasthat the children with the gross
mindsets were happy to dodifficult puzzles, but the
children with the fixed mindsetwould just stop at the puzzle
(46:52):
that was easiest to do and theywould not want to challenge
themselves.
So also, learning that it'sokay to, you know, challenge
yourself, because while learningyou're learning.
So just really incorporatingthat culture of learning.
And what they also find is thatwhen there's a culture of the
growth mindset in the home or inthe school, then the child is
(47:14):
able to express it more.
So it has to be a familyculture of growth mindset where
we're all learning and we all wemake mistakes and we say you
know, I find like sometimesparents find it very difficult
to say sorry when they make amistake, but they're teaching
the child to be ashamed ofmistakes and it is the child oh,
I should feel bad when I make amistake.
(47:35):
So you see, some children theyspill a spill a drink and
they're just looking at thedrink as it's just dripping down
and it's just like what have Idone?
Oh, my gosh, it's horrible.
I'm a bad person, but spillinga drink is part of life and
happens to anybody.
Even adults spill their drinks.
So the adult is the one that isgoing to help the child
(47:56):
understand how to fall.
Well, like, okay, you spilledthe drink, this happens.
Okay, let's clean it up.
It was like just making themfeel that it's okay sometimes to
make a mistake and I too makemistakes and the most important
thing is that we clean up afterit happens.
(48:17):
You can't just sit there andjust be looking at it.
It's like the attitude ofbouncing back.
Yes, this happened.
Yes, I feel embarrassed, butwhat am I going to do next?
So I feel like that has to.
Yeah, so that's the way to doit really, to really bring in
that growth mindset of bouncingback, falling, falling and
(48:37):
rolling with the fall.
Ok, I don't like what ishappening, but I can learn from
it and I can find out what thecorrect answers are.
I can study harder next time.
And sometimes even the parentcan sit down with them and just
analyze the situation with themand just say, ok, did you
actually put in your best?
Analyze the situation with themand just say, okay, did you
actually put in your best?
(48:57):
I noticed that you're playingvideo games yesterday and you
know to really analyze with them, to help them, and I think this
also strengthens the intellect,because there is always this
battle between the intellect andthe emotion.
And so what you're trying to dois really strengthen the
(49:18):
intellect and not make them.
To make them guided by theintellect and grace, and to do
that you have to keep on makingthem to return to logic and
showing them why.
And showing them, because somepeople would just say, okay, I
should just make them, I shouldjust support them in a way that
does not actually highlight what, what they've done wrong and
(49:38):
that won't help them grow andthat won't help them develop
that intellect.
So they have to see objectivelywhere they've gone wrong, but
you also have to like, be kindabout it and teach them about
self-compassion, and you knowall this thing, yeah.
Sheila Nonato (49:56):
Yes, yes, those are are, yeah, those are great
tips and that will definitelyhelp Catholic families to thrive
.
And I just, uh, finally wantedto look at um, just one of your
podcasts.
You labeled it thriving as acatholic family and you were
talking about you know some tips, you know putting god first,
knowing him, loving him, servingGod, having holy images, holy
(50:20):
photos in the house, having analtar, a set prayer time,
bringing the children to Mass.
What other tips can weincorporate so we can have a
thriving Catholic family, so wecan have a thriving Catholic
family.
Jacqueline Clovis (50:38):
Yes, I think also making them interacting
with good Catholic families aswell is very helpful, so that
they can see other Catholicfamilies and they can have
Catholic friends.
Because what happens is whenthey are really young, they are
just thinking it's only theirparents' opinion they think
about, but as they get to 13 andabove even these days, from
(50:59):
like 9 or even 7, they'realready thinking about, so
they're so engrossed with whattheir friends are doing and
their friends' opinion.
So having Catholic friends willhelp them when they're at that
age where they are just tryingto fit in.
So they actually have Catholicfriends where they are just
trying to fit in and so theyactually have catholic friends.
Um, another thing I think isvery helpful is also making that
(51:21):
inviting priests to dinner ornuns to dinner so they have a
dinner with the family, becausethey sometimes, you have very
good conversations.
So for me, I come from a familyof 11 and I have 12, so at 14,
including my parents, so 12children, and sometimes we'll
have a priest come over and thepriest who would, um, you know,
(51:44):
talk about the faith, and Ifound it very interesting
because they will come from adifferent angle, because after a
while you get so used to yourparents and their angle and it's
nice when the priest now talksabout you know they might even
be saying the same thing, butthey come from a different angle
.
And it's nice when the priestnow talks about you know they
might even be saying the samething, but they come from a
different angle and it touchesyou in a different way.
So that's a nice way of justbringing in, getting them used
to seeing priests and reverendsisters and but the one and they
(52:08):
just have this nice thing.
They have this lovely dinnerwhere they can ask the priest
questions, and so I think that'ssomething that was very nice
that we had in our family.
And another thing that wasreally nice was just learning
Catholic songs.
So we had a family friend whowill come and teach us Catholic
songs and I feel like that wasreally nice.
(52:29):
And then after our nightprayers we will sing those songs
to kind of incorporate it in.
So that is something, yeah,that that really um helps me.
I have like really goodmemories around that.
So, yes, I think it's justimportant to just make the faith
really a joyful thing.
I know it's hard sometimesbecause you're trying to instill
(52:50):
that discipline and the routineand we say rosary now and
that's why I think it's soimportant to bring in joy into
the experience of saying therosary now and that's why I
think it's so important to bringin joy into the experience of
saying the rosary.
And even some mystery.
And I was attending a talk onetime and the speaker was talking
about how, when they were goingto have the rosary, they would
turn off the lights and lightthe candles and the whole place
(53:13):
would be dark and the only thingthat was ringing light was the
candle.
And he just showed like nowit's be dark and the only thing
that was ringing light was thecandle and it just showed, like
now is rosary time.
So things like that, to justbring in that mystery and just
make it interesting and arelative of ours, when they are
seeing the rosary, they let thechildren change the pictures,
like to represent differentmysteries.
So joyful mystery, there willbe a picture and then you know
(53:36):
just different the so joyfulmystery.
There will be a picture andthen.
So you know just different, thefirst joyful mystery.
Then they'll ask the child tochange it and so they are
getting involved.
So I think it's so important.
You might think, oh, this isgoing to make it long.
I think it's so important forthe child to actually get
involved in it because when Ilook at what is happening in the
education system, especiallyhere in UK, they get the
(53:57):
children involved in so manythings and even values that
their families may not hold, andI was just like you know they
are involved in all these thingseven when they are so young,
and it's not the values theirfamily holds.
But imagine if the family wasbeing proactive and letting them
get involved in the things thatrepresent the family's values.
(54:19):
You know the rosary, gettinginvolved in the liturgy, the
colors, and you know, forexample, it's Easter, we're
going to decorate these Eastereggs and we're going to like
when people do the tomb or youknow, and they decorate it in
(54:41):
their families.
I think that's really nice andrepresents the risen lord.
So just incorporating it tomake it like fun and engaging
and show that this is part ofour life and we're joy, we're
happily doing this, we're notforced or we're not miserably
doing this, so I'm not forcedthat or I'm not miserably doing
this and I yeah.
So it's not easy, but I thinkit's so important to just have
that before us as the targetwhere we're headed to, to just
(55:03):
keep us going and yeah yes,
Sheila Nonato (55:09):
Amazing, yeah, and you'll have to come back and
talk to tell us about what itwas like to grow up in a family
of 14.
Next interview, but thank youfor taking the time teaching us,
giving us insights on how tothrive in motherhood and
parenthood in trying to raiseleaders and saints.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
(55:29):
Thank you so much.
God bless and hope to see youagain.
I'll see you again.
Thank you, take care, god blessBye.
See you again.
Oh, I'll see you again.
Thank you, take care, god blessBye.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it Bye.
Thank you to Jacqueline for allthe tips on how to teach and
model Christian virtue to ourchildren.
Her top parent tip of teachingself-regulation mirrors the
(55:52):
virtue modeled by all the saintsthe ability to deny oneself, or
, as we Catholics know it, assacrifice, as Christ modeled for
us.
Sacrifice, meaning the cross,the little crosses we experience
in our daily life, leads to oursalvation.
We can offer up our littlecrosses of the day as housewives
, when we are washing the dishes, making dinner or changing the
(56:13):
baby's diaper.
We can offer that up forsomeone in need that day, for
someone who could use a prayeror for a holy soul needing to be
released from purgatory.
In next week's episode we pickup the conversation with Sister
Helena Burns and the FeminineGenius.
How does that apply to ourparenthood and how do we teach
that to our children?
Thank you and God bless.
(56:34):
Thank you for listening to theVeil and Armour Podcast.
Thank you and God bless.
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