Izabela Ciesinska, celebrated author and illustrator, takes us on an inspiring journey from her childhood in Communist Poland to her flourishing creative career in Canada, all framed by her profound return to the Catholic faith. We unpack the heartfelt inspiration behind her debut children's book, "The Little Donkey and God's Big Plan," where a single Biblical passage sparked deep reflections on God-inspired purpose and self-discovery. Isabella also delves into her love for European fairy tales, revealing how their moral clarity and enchanting illustrations have shaped her unique artistic style.
Through a Christian artist's lens, Izabela gives her impressions on the controversy surrounding the Olympics' Opening Ceremonies, critically looking at the alignment with beauty, truth, and goodness. Izabela underscores the importance of anchoring art and ambition in service to God and society.
In a beautiful testimony to the transformative power of faith and art, Izabela shares her personal journey back to Christianity. A road trip through Arizona's majestic landscapes reignited her belief in a creator, leading to a spiritual rebirth and a deepened commitment to Catholicism. Her renewed faith not only inspired her children's book but also fueled her passion for introducing beauty and art to children, advocating for creating meaningful experiences at home. We close with reflections on the community's vital role in nurturing spiritual growth.
Connect with Izabela:
-X/Twitter: https://www.x.com/@IZZYpics
-Website: https://www.izzipics.com/
-Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@izzipix
Connect with Sheila:
- Instagram
- X / Twitter
-Email: veilandarmour@gmail.com
- Website
https://veilandarmour.com
https://veilandarmour.buzzsprout.com
https://www.sheilanonato.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sheila Nonato (00:02):
Welcome to Veil and Armour, Izabela Ciesinska.
You're an Ascension Pressauthor and illustrator and did
you want to maybe start off witha prayer, if you don't mind
joining me?
Yes, of course.
Okay, let's say the Hail MaryIn the name of the Father and of
the Son, of the Holy Spirit.
Amen, Hail Mary, Full of Grace,the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
(00:25):
womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, prayfor us sinners, now and at the
hour of our death.
Amen, In the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit
.
Amen.
Thank you for joining us andI'm just going to introduce you,
our listeners, to Izabela.
She was born in Communist Poland.
She grew up reading Europeanfairy tales, which inspired her
(00:46):
love of books and illustration.
When she moved to Canada, shecame across animated films for
the first time, which inspiredher illustration style.
She went on to have an athleticcareer in tennis and competed
for Florida Gulf CoastUniversity, where she graduated
in criminal forensics.
After graduation, she pursued acareer in film and illustration
(01:07):
.
Her debut short film premieredat the Montreal World Film
Festival in 2010, and she wenton to illustrate for clients
like Oxford University Press,the Concordia Publishing House,
the United Methodist PublishingHouse and the Pentecostal
Publishing House.
"The Little Donkey and God'sBig Plan is the author's debut,
(01:29):
which she's publishing with theCatholic publisher Ascension
Press.
She's a cradle Catholic thatfell away from the faith a few
years ago and recently returnedwith a deeper understanding and
appreciation for the faith.
In her free time she likesreading good books, discovering
great cinema, taking very longwalks and watching cute animal
(01:50):
videos on YouTube.
Welcome, Izabela,
Izabela Ciesinska (01:53):
Thank you for having me.
Sheila
Sheila Nonato (01:56):
And this is our second time.
Unfortunately, we did recordsomething, I think it's in May.
It was an awesome interview andthere was some technical issues
, so hopefully today we will nothave any of those and we will
be able to publish this.
But welcome, and I just wantedto talk about let's go right
into the book.
You have a new children's bookand I actually I love this book
(02:20):
and, like I was saying in thefirst interview, when I was
reading it, coming to the end, Iwas just filled with great
emotion because I could sort ofsense how nowadays I do have
young children.
So in this time of childhoodit's a time of innocence, also
vulnerability, and going throughsort of a transformation,
(02:42):
trying to find your place in theworld, going through sort of a
transformation, trying to findyour place in the world, and the
story of "he little donkey.
It is mirroring that path ofself-discovery and
transformation.
And can you tell us what wasthe inspiration of that story?
Izabela Ciesinska (02:57):
Well, that was at the early stages of me
returning back to Christianitynot Catholicism yet, but I have
been.
You know, I have gone astray forabout 20 years meddling in all
kinds of stuff and in 2014, Istarted kind of returning to it
(03:21):
and by the time I startedwriting "he Little Donkey, I was
already reading the Bible notevery day, but occasionally and
I came across the line thatJesus tells the apostles to go
and bring the donkey to him, andthat line just struck me
(03:42):
because it just felt immortal,like what that little donkey
accomplished, just doing exactlywhat he was designed to do.
I am now reading it in theBible and it just struck me
because it immediatelytranslated my mind to what a
divine purpose is.
And if a little donkey canserve Jesus Christ and
(04:05):
contribute to the salvation ofmankind, which is what he did,
jesus would have accomplished itanyway.
We know that.
But the little donkeyfacilitated in the way that he
was designed and that struck meand I thought I think there's a
story here about purpose forchildren and for adults that I
can expand on.
Sheila Nonato (04:28):
Beautiful and in terms of, I guess, your love for
reading.
You mentioned in your bio thatyou had sent me that European
fairy tales.
They had sort of this.
It was a catalyst for youwanting to read more and develop
a love for love for books.
What was it about these fairytales that captured your
(04:50):
imagination?
Izabela Ciesinska (04:51):
Well, two things.
One, they always had a goodmoral at the end.
There was no confusion, butthere were no moral lines that
were being blurred.
Um, the, the classic fairytales, but what, uh, what?
What struck me as a child morewas, of course, the artwork.
Uh, when I was growing up, we,we still had the fairy tales
(05:14):
that were traditionallyillustrated with a very heavy
european style.
That was a mesh between, youknow, victorian illustration and
even earlier, and, and it wasjust to me so beautiful, every
illustration was a work of art.
We really don't seeillustrations like this anymore.
You have to go to a museum,which I went to two years ago,
(05:38):
to look at some Victorianchildren's books, and there was
such a difference in style.
So I think the people back thenwere just more connected to the
principles of beauty.
I think, and, kind of speaking,more to my love of reading, I
started reading the classicsthis year.
(05:58):
I just told myself I think Ineed to try the classics, and so
I'm reading Wuthering Heightsnow and I read Jane Eyre just a
few weeks ago.
And let me tell you there issuch a difference in the use of
language as well.
In Jane Eyre, every chapterappeals to God or Jesus Christ,
and it's not a story aboutChristianity.
It's a story about just a girlgoing through her life, her
(06:22):
difficult life, and everychapter the author appeals to
Christianity, which further mademe understand those people were
far more connected to theprinciples of Christianity and
the principles of beauty andwhat makes good art.
So I noticed that very early onin the classical fairy tales.
Sheila Nonato (06:45):
What was your favorite fairy tale?
Izabela Ciesinska (06:49):
Oh, man, that changed.
I would say the one that Iremember from the classics, from
that time when I only knew thebooks.
I would say Rapunzel and SnowWhite, oh, and of course the
(07:09):
Little Red Riding Hood.
But which was my favorite?
I I don't my.
My taste changed when I came toCanada because my love of books
.
Then, you know, I discoveredanimation, which opened another
new world.
By discovered animation.
I mean, you know, I grew up inCommunist Poland.
(07:30):
We didn't have access toWestern animation.
So when I saw Bambi for thefirst time and I saw the Little
Mermaid for the first time, Iwas amazed.
So for the longest time theLittle Mermaid was my favorite
animation or fairy tale as myfavorite animation or fairy tale
.
And then, when I became afaithful Christian, I was like,
(07:50):
oh, oh, my mind changed on a lotof those fairy tales.
Because you know the Little RedRiding Hood, that came from a
time where in the Black Forestin Bavaria, children were
attacked by wolves.
You know, people lived asideand there was a warning for what
happens when you don't walk thepath you're supposed to walk,
when you don't go straight tograndma's house.
(08:11):
But the other fairy tales, likethe Little Mermaid, only later,
many years later, like decadeslater, did I realize, oh, that
there's some occultism in there,especially the new ones, the
classics.
There was, I think, moreoccultism in there, especially
the new ones, the classics.
There was, I think, more of amoral in there that don't meddle
in the dark stuff.
(08:32):
The Little Mermaid actuallypays with her life.
In the new one she getsrewarded right.
So there's this confusion inthe modern age.
We took those fairy tales andwe did kind of invert them.
So even though they were verybeautiful and they still are
aesthetically, I hate to admitit now that my favorite fairy
(08:53):
tale was in fact not something Iwould recommend to kids right
now.
Sheila Nonato (09:00):
You know that they are remaking, as you were
saying.
They're remaking all theseDisney classics to children and
are you saying that they mightnot be as good of a
representation of what theauthor had intended for those
fairy tales?
Izabela Ciesinska (09:18):
Oh, 100%.
When you look at the firstDisney trailer of the newest
Snow White and the dwarvesanyone who's seen that old
trailer knows what I'm talkingabout Then there's just no way
that the people of Bavaria fromlike 200 years ago that that's
(09:40):
how they envisioned it.
There was no gender bending iswhat I'm saying.
There was no confusion aboutthis stuff.
There was no confusion aboutthe role of a female and the
role of a prince.
They still kind of cultivatedthe code of chivalry from the
medieval times where the man wasthe man and he was supposed to
protect the woman, not becauseshe's weak, but because she
(10:02):
represents that vulnerable lifebearer in society, for which,
which, which the kingdomcompletely falls apart if you
don't take care of the mostvulnerable and the and the
bringers and protectors of life.
So so the old fairy tales stillhad that.
They were built on thoseclassical principles uh,
sensible principles I would saythat built a very strong modern
(10:25):
civilization that are now beingcompletely inverted, and the
media is always the first toinvert it so there were morals
being taught, as you hadmentioned, I think, even walt
disney back in the day.
Sheila Nonato (10:40):
He would have a show and he would first, he
would have children sitting downlistening to him before the,
the film uh started or thecartoon, and he would tell them
the moral.
There was a a good news storyto this.
You know, not specificallychristian, overtly christian,
but just you know, serve others,help others, help your mom and
dad, um, but just you know,serve others, help others, help
your mom and dad.
But now when you watch showsI've been watching some of my
(11:03):
kids shows there are no likePeppa Pig and all that.
It's really more entertainmentand not really learning so much.
What has changed?
Why do we?
I guess we're more sensitive toteaching.
You know we don't want toimpose our values.
Is that what's happening rightnow?
Izabela Ciesinska (11:22):
I think it's a long battle, sheila.
I think we've been fightingthis battle of liberalism for a
long time.
And I don't mean thispolitically, I really mean this
philosophically.
Philosophically it's all theway back in the Bible, where
people had a problem with godlyorder and they made it very
(11:46):
clear that they have a problemwith godly order.
And these were the people thatwere, you know, eventually wiped
out by God.
How long can you keep that kindof disorder going?
And it wasn't conquered backthen.
It continues to grow and Ithink the modern age is just a
rebellion against—it's an overt,I would say adolescent a very
immature rebellion against thesensible things, the moral
(12:23):
lessons and the values and thevirtues that these stories
taught.
They made great contributions tosociety.
That was the whole point ofmythology was to teach people
that the journey of the hero whoconquers these difficulties and
returns to his society withthis knowledge or whatever thing
of value he brings back Now,that's why everything is just
mindless entertainment today,because when the rebels and
(12:46):
those who value personal libertywhich almost always translates
into hedonism when theyprioritize that above all else,
then you will see it ripplingdown from all the positions
which they occupied, which Iwould say they mostly gravitate
towards positions of power,because they have a lot to gain
(13:08):
by dismantling legal andphilosophical structures that
force bad behavior into goodbehavior.
So they have no interest increating stories that will, uh,
guide people, particularlychildren, to adopt certain
(13:28):
behaviors that will not onlybenefit their own lives for
greater performance, but society.
Sheila Nonato (13:33):
So that's why we're seeing it and what do you
think about sort of a rolereversal?
You had mentioned about thehero, the chivalry aspect of
movies before I was watching onNetflix I believe it's a new
version of Cinderella and Ithink she had a choice of the
prince getting married or herpursuing a career, pursuing a
(13:54):
career, and it was really sortof, you know, she was very torn
because she she loved thisprince but she wanted to pursue
her dream and she couldn't haveboth.
It's sort of a either or choice.
What do you think about sort ofthe role of reversal, now that
(14:19):
you know I'm a woman and I don'tneed't need men, and and that's
the end of the movie.
Izabela Ciesinska (14:21):
Well, I'll tell you that, yeah, when women
say they don't need men, it'sjust so laughable, literally
laughable.
My mom and I laugh every timewe drive on the highway and
these poor men are there,sweating, digging the highway,
not a single woman in sight, youknow.
So it's always the women thatshout we don't need men, where
(14:44):
they're gravitating towards theeasiest jobs, the most
privileged jobs that actuallyare not contributing much to
society.
Let's get real about it, and Iknow it sounds harsh, but I
believe it's the truth.
I think let's get real about it, and I know it sounds harsh,
but I believe it's the truth.
I think, yes, there is a rolefor women to claim, a liberty
(15:18):
that expresses their creativityand their talents in a way that
serves even beyond society 100%.
A woman can be a mother, shecan be an author, she can be an
author, she can be a greatartist, she can change the world
that way for the better.
There's no reason why you can'tdo that, but to prioritize and
pursue those positions that areinherently not for women, that
are actually, I believe,demasculating and, in a way,
castrating masculinity in oursociety.
(15:40):
Take a female general in an armyyou're essentially asking the
young men to follow the ordersof a mom figure.
That is very unhealthy foryoung men.
Young men need a masculinefigure that they highly and
deeply admire, a figure that hasalready embodied masculine
values and virtues which theyare not yet, have not cultivated
(16:03):
themselves, and now they canfollow.
This whole inversion has nowpainted this picture where
you're putting young men thefuture, the guardians of our
society in a way where they'renow forced to follow their mom
or to conform to somegender-bending falsehood.
(16:25):
It's not going to benefitsociety in the least in the long
run.
I believe it's just not going toproduce strong men, and we
absolutely need strong men.
And in order for strong men tobecome strong, we need women
that are very secure in theirfeminine, because it is feminine
women that inspire strong mento eventually give up their
(16:46):
lives for something greater.
If they don't feel thatinspiration, what exactly are
they going to sacrificethemselves for?
That's why the army the numbersof men signing up to the army
in the States is dropping.
It's like record high numbers.
They're not signing up.
What for?
Sheila Nonato (17:05):
That's interesting and I'm just
wondering.
So I'm going to be.
I don't want to, I don't wantto say devil's advocate, because
I never want to be that, I'mjust going to be talking from
the other side.
So in Canada we do have afemale general and my husband is
in the army.
So he really admires thisperson and she got there based
(17:25):
on her merit.
She is absolutely qualified andhe served under her and she is
fabulous, a great patriot andwarrior for Canada.
Patriot and Warrior for Canada.
But, as you're saying, noteverybody is born or is skilled
in all the male professions orprofessions that were
(17:47):
traditionally male.
What, in terms Ceremoniesaspirations of women, trying to
sort of promote careers that arenot traditionally, trying to
sort of promote careers that arenot traditionally female?
How do we go about this interms of you know, with my
children, with children ingeneral?
How do we sort of approach thesubject of you know when they
(18:11):
ask what do you want to be whenyou grow up?
You know, nowadays, I thinkyou're not, you're not allowed
to, like, gender.
You know to speak in a genderedlanguage, right?
How do we approach this asCatholics, as people of faith,
in terms of fosteringimagination, creativity and also
encouraging them to dream,dream big.
(18:33):
How do we approach this?
On the one hand hand, there'ssort of this politicized
movement to get women intocertain professions that are
traditionally male.
How do we, how do we navigatethis?
Izabela Ciesinska (18:48):
I think the and the kingdom of God.
If a child has a burning desireand a talent to back it up,
that perhaps puts them outsideof a pattern in terms of
(19:12):
vocation, that may very well bealignment with their gender.
Let's say, a female astronaut,even a female general, so long
as it is backed by merit and itis not there for that political
reason or for ego.
I'm going to be the first woman, this or I'm a woman and I can
hear me roar.
That's not how we serve God.
(19:33):
We serve God by using our giftsand our predispositions that he
put there in order to serve theworld, and you will end up with
some women and men thatabsolutely excel and they excel
not just in terms of genius,like Elon Musk, but they excel
outside of their gender role.
(19:54):
But it has to be merit-basedand it has to be service-based.
If it's based on anything other, particularly ego or political,
it's going to, I think,contribute negatively to society
.
Sheila Nonato (20:09):
So we're going to go to another controversial
topic the Olympics.
All right, so I'm not an artist, but I do appreciate art.
The Olympic ceremonies caused agreat controversy, so much so
that the Ayatollah of Iran alsoeven was indignant about it.
(20:29):
I think he said, quote respectfor Jesus is an indisputable,
definite matter for Muslims.
We condemn these insultsdirected at the holy figures of
divine religions, includingJesus Christ.
So it even offendednon-Christians.
What are your thoughts about?
Because the Olympics issupposed to be sort of the
highest achievement of anathlete, and so the organizing
(20:52):
committee had four years to comeup with a masterpiece, really,
really for the world to showcasethe cultural heritage and
treasures of France.
And they came up with what wesaw, what has been interpreted
as a slight to the slight, Iguess, is maybe a softer term to
(21:14):
describe it a jab atChristianity at the Last Supper,
Although they were trying tosay it's not the Last Supper,
it's Greek mythology.
You're an artist.
What did you see?
Please explain to us.
What did we see?
Izabela Ciesinska (21:30):
Well, we did see the worldly, I guess, the
worldly definition of art andthe worldly liberal expression
of art, which usually relies onshock value because it doesn't
have much substance to rely on,but I would say the godly
expression of art.
(21:50):
It has to be an expression ofbeauty, truth and goodness.
Truth and goodness the beautyis only a tool to attract the
eye to the truth, and the truthis the thing that sinks into the
heart in order to inspire goodaction, goodness.
So that kind of art, I think ittakes a lot to create the true
(22:13):
beautiful kind of art.
I think is it takes a lot tocreate the true beautiful kind
of art.
I mean to even.
You know, you take any of theartists that contributed to, you
know any of the art in theVatican, and I'm talking mostly
about the Renaissance, theclassical art.
These were masters, and theywere masters at the age of 17.
(22:34):
When you look at Michelangelo'ssculptures from when he was 17,
they were, I mean, mind-blowing.
You don't have artists likethis today, let alone
17-year-olds.
So these people apprenticedfrom the age of like 12 in order
to master a skill that wouldallow them to get close to
creating an image thatrepresented whatever the divine
(22:58):
inspired in them.
These kinds of artists.
They're very few today.
They were always few, but backthen society cultivated them.
Today, it not only doesn'tcultivate them, it actually
glorifies the inversion of truth, beauty and goodness, which is
the shock value, worldly kind ofpart.
(23:20):
And so that's what we saw today, because so much of society has
accepted the rejection of godlyvalues and principles.
This is how they celebrate, andI've had a few discussions with
my friends about this, myfriends, my acquaintances from
(23:41):
film industry and they found ithilarious.
They found it hilarious, theyfound it artistic, they found it
, of course, brave and bold, um,but, uh, they, they found it
that way because they themselveshave rejected, uh, god in their
heart.
So anyone who loves God and whowants to be further, I think,
(24:05):
guided by God's knowledge andtruth and the gifts he gives us
through art, to us, to thosekinds of people, it wasn't art,
it was a clown show, and itqualifies as art as much as a
bad clown show can qualify asart, as you're saying that.
Sheila Nonato (24:26):
I'm just wondering um, I don't.
Well, I feel like they wouldnot do this to another religion
because it would be harder.
But who knows, knows, maybethey would have.
Is it difficult to be aChristian artist?
Izabela Ciesinska (24:42):
You know it's difficult.
If you care about worldlysuccess, If you want to make a
lot of money, if you want toappeal to Hollywood, if you want
to appeal to big brands, you'regoing to suffer.
But if you don't care about anyof those things which I don't
think we should, if yourgreatest concern or desire is to
(25:08):
know God and to serve Him inthe best way you can, not only
is it not difficult, it is themost fulfilling thing you can do
.
I enjoy my Christian projectsfar more because now they are
personal to me.
I feel like I'm laying down atiny, tiny, tiny little brick
(25:30):
within the kingdom.
Sheila Nonato (25:32):
Every time I create something Christian, it
feels different how do youdiscover God in art, in your art
?
Izabela Ciesinska (25:47):
I'm not sure you discover God in your own art
.
I think actually, actually Iwas going to answer it
differently, but now that I'mspeaking, I think the primary
desire has to be to know God andas the as you're creating like,
(26:09):
I'm working on my firstChristian novel now and I knew
what I wanted it to be about,but it turns out I'm kind of
writing about myself and myjourney.
It's not about me, it's it.
It's a biblical character andhis pursuit of God, and even
though I had the plot very clearin my mind, as I write I
(26:33):
suppose these mysteries unveilthemselves to the point where I
almost don't feel like I'mwriting it.
It's the, you know, the HolySpirit, and I think one of the
keys is prayer.
Every time I sit down to writeI pray and I ask the Holy Spirit
and God and Jesus to use mybody as a vessel to write what
(26:58):
they believe, what they know theworld needs, and so I suppose,
just dedicating oneself as avessel to God, then you open the
door to discover things throughyour own creation that he will
kind of guide and create throughyou.
(27:18):
So I guess that the primarystep is always surrender,
surrender to God, dedicate yourwork to him, ask him to guide
your every process, everysession, and then you yourself,
you're going to surpriseyourself.
Sheila Nonato (27:35):
Wow, thanks for sharing that.
Wow, when you mentioned yourreturn to God, when did that
happen?
Because you said you were acradle Catholic.
Then you fell away from thefaith.
Sharing that, wow.
When.
When you mentioned your returnto god, when did when did that
happen?
Because you said you were acradle catholic.
Then you fell away from thefaith for a few years.
When did that sort of lightbulb moment come that you, you
wanted to return?
Izabela Ciesinska (27:55):
the, the real the, the big light bulb moment
was my trip to ari Um.
Before then, I was in 2014,.
That was the last film.
Ironically, my last film, uhshoot, brought me to God.
Um, I left one and I went intothe other.
Uh, by then I was already, uh,I was uh, I was uh very deep
(28:20):
into atheism.
My father had passed a yearearlier and I was already like
five years in.
That was around the time wherethe new age, the new atheist
movement, was very, very big.
And they got to me.
They sound, they are very smart, they're very articulate.
(28:42):
And they got to me.
They sound, they are very smart, they're very articulate.
And they got to me.
And and so, in 2014, I wasalready a full blown atheist.
And we're driving from Torontoto California and the Arizona
moment we entered Arizona, Ijust I mean like five minutes
later I was a full blownbeliever.
Maybe I didn't believe in aChristian God and let alone
Catholicism, but I was afull-blown believer.
Maybe I didn't believe in aChristian God, let alone
(29:03):
Catholicism, but I was convincedthat there was a creator.
And the reason was that Arizonais just so unique and the
landscape is so majestic.
There's this primal force therethat's blended with some sort
of sub, uh, uh, sublime painting.
(29:24):
It's like beauty Turrone forcein in one, uh, and that really
struck me.
I mean it's so overwhelming.
And there the feeling there isdifferent.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it's because it's not, uh, the civilization hasn't
touched it and you areone-on-one with nature Mass and
the desert.
There's something so special inthe desert that by the time we
emerged from Arizona five hourslater Mass I was just yeah,
(32:14):
(OCIA )- Order of ChristianInitiation of Adults - I was
convinced that there's a creator.
And then, unfortunately, becauseI lacked the Turrone,
foundation, the Christianfoundation, I kind of strayed a
God bit and, uh, um, looked forgod in new age and and, uh, all
kinds of strange philosophies,hermeticism, all kinds of stuff,
um and uh that it brought me toprosperity gospel, because,
strangely, prosperity gospel andthe self-manifestation I can
accomplish anything, I cancreate my reality they kind of
overlap, um, and so that littleoverlap segued me into
christianity, um, and afterstaying there for maybe a few
months, I really I starteddeveloping a greater fascination
for the theology than that Ican make my dreams come true
part.
And so that's when I startedreading the Bible more,
listening to a lot more podcasts, and the more I started to
learn about Christianity and itsfoundations, its biblical
foundations, the more I startedto be drawn to the conservative
practice of Christianity.
I realized you can't practiceit any other way.
You have to commit to knowingit, to integrating it.
Um, and so that's.
That's where I've been, I think.
Sheila Nonato (31:11):
Uh,
Izabela Ciesinska (31:11):
I guess the light bulb moment was arizona.
And the second light bulbmoment into catholicism was when
I started writing the littledonkey, my children's book, and
Ascension Press decided topublish it.
And when I had an interviewwith them, I realized how much I
(31:33):
lack as a Christian, as aCatholic, and I felt not right
with myself that here I amwriting a book for this very
faithful Catholic publisher, toa faithful Catholic audience,
while I myself am lukewarm.
And so that's when I decided tostep to my local church, heard
Father Peter Turrone speak and Iwas like no, that's it, I'm
(31:54):
home and I haven't missed them.
Well, he would say I havemissed them, and I have missed
them when I visit my mom.
Sometimes I'm gone for a week,so I don't make it to Mass for
this church, but whenever I'mhere in Toronto, which is 99% of
the time, I always attend aMass.
And I'm starting RCIA (O.
(32:14):
C.
I.
A.
- Order of Christian Intiationfor Adults) next week, so I'm
almost done.
Sheila Nonato (32:18):
That's awesome, and shout out to Father Turrone
he is such a holy priest, thanksbe to God.
Yeah, I, I'm so just inspiredby your story, uh, your story of
conversion, and I'm so elatedfor you that you're you're
starting rcia.
Are you thinking of Easter timearound Easter time to become a?
(32:39):
catholic.
Izabela Ciesinska (32:40):
I, I think, so.
I.
I think that's how long theprogram is right.
We're starting next week andthen it goes.
So, yeah, yeah, I guess we'rewhenever, assuming I pass, I
don't know how it works, I don'tknow what I think you'll pass.
Sheila Nonato (32:58):
I have a slight idea that you know just joking,
no yeah.
Well, the your testimony is,yeah, just moves, moved me to
tears, to be honest, Justbeautiful, and I just wanted to
go back to.
You were talking about yourchildren's book.
Going back to children and,given that you know, there's so
much noise right nowadays socialmedia, video games, Netflix,
(33:23):
phones, even computers, so manythings that can take children
away from learning about art,what is real art, what is good
art how do parents, where do westart?
How do we introduce art to kidsthat you know they just want to
play on their iPads or whatever?
(33:43):
How do we start?
How do we inspire or sort ofjumpstart that love for beauty?
Izabela Ciesinska (33:52):
Well, I would say it starts with having these
, creating beautiful experiencesin your house.
I would definitely limit thephone and tablet because you
have no control, and that is awide range of worlds I would say
(34:16):
that a kid has access to and Iwould really limit that.
But something as simple ashaving beautiful classical music
always playing in thebackground, making sure that
beautiful paintings are there,family outings to a museum to
show them the classics, abeautiful trip to the Vatican or
(34:36):
a medieval village in southernFrance to show them how these
Catholic cities were built, youknow the difference between a
society that values God andlives for God versus society
that doesn't right.
Taking a kid out to a beautifultheater.
(34:58):
You know, and assuming maybeparents not everyone can afford
that, of course, uh, them beingvery, very selective with one's
books.
Have, have those, have a fewbeautifully illustrated, uh,
books from from the victoriantime, like, like, uh, the
velveteen rabbit.
You know the velveteen rabbit,such a beautiful story, a
(35:21):
beautifully illustrated Bible.
That is, I think you know, soinspiring.
I still remember the Bible thatinspired me.
I mean it was a Jehovah'sWitness Bible.
So I understand thecontradiction in that.
But that children's Bible thatthey gave to my family, um,
(35:44):
because they used to give themaway at the time in poland.
Um, I I still remember theimpact that those images had on
you know, because it was sobeautifully illustrated.
So so, to really have in yourhouse beauty and to be highly
selective with, um, the thethings that you expose your
(36:08):
children to at a very young age,because if they familiarize
themselves or if they grow upwith uh, true, truly beautiful
music, truly beautiful moviesthey're hard to find, but keep
those in your house Then whenthey go out there, they're going
(36:31):
to have that comparison.
When they're surrounded by true, profound beauty and they go
out in the world and they seethat shallow, empty, trendy
stuff, they're going to bebetter equipped to resist it.
And eventually they will.
Because let me tell you my dad,when I was growing up my dad,
(36:52):
when we used to travel to tennispractices, he would always play
his music in the car.
He wouldn't tolerate me playingmy music in the car and I used
to be angry at him back then.
But now I'm grateful becauseguess what music has survived in
my heart today?
I don't listen to the stuff Iused to listen to in high school
.
It's unthinkable, right?
(37:15):
I listened to the classics thatmy dad introduced me to, and
now, as an older person, I'mable to appreciate it more.
So it does stick with you.
It does stick with you even ifthe kids rebel for a time
because they want to fit in.
Eventually, what you put inthem when they're very, very
young, um you, you will simplyequip them, who eventually
(37:38):
choose the better stuff over thenot good stuff.
Sheila Nonato (37:43):
Yes, and the classics?
They're classics for a reason,right, there's no end date to
them.
They're always relevant.
And, yeah, what my husband hasbeen doing is actually letting
the kids listen to jazz.
He likes jazz and Frank Sinatra, so it's another time and
another era.
But you know what?
I don't know?
(38:03):
They don't know anything else.
I guess right now, right now,their world is still innocent,
so when they go out into theschool, it might change.
But, as you were saying, to begrounded in beauty, honesty,
truth.
I think that, hopefully, thatwill equip children nowadays to
(38:27):
be able to discern what is goodfor them and what will enrich
their lives, instead of takingaway from it or just wasting
time.
Right?
Was there anything else thatyou wanted to add?
Izabela Ciesinska (38:43):
Yeah, when you said when kids go to school,
man, I don't have children, butif I did I would really, if you
can, homeschool, homeschool.
If you can't, homeschoolCatholic school only and really
(39:03):
pay attention to the schoolboard, make sure they're real
practicing Catholics that arenot going to derail the system,
the Catholic system, into theworldly one.
They're there to preserve.
We, as Catholics, are there topreserve the ancient tradition,
not to please the world.
(39:24):
That's why we have thatseparation.
Anyone who wants to join ourchurches door's always wide open
, but we don't conform to theworld, and I think that's
important because it's going totake parents to really say no, a
(39:45):
big, bold capital, no when itcomes to the worldly things.
Because, no matter how well yourun things in your home, if
your kid is spending six hoursin school and the school is indo
, indoctrinating them with withunholy things, it will have its
impact, um, and it's reallygoing to take parents to, to not
(40:09):
just parents, um, but society,but but those who believe in
those Christian values.
There's no other way forward.
We have to defend them and wecannot send our children into
the wolf den, um.
So I would be very, at thisstage, I feel like it's, it's
unsafe to say, to send childreninto the, into a public school,
(40:31):
because you just don't know.
Sheila Nonato (40:33):
You don't know what they're going to come home
with wow, um, as you were saying, that we go back to our roots
and the foundation and introducekids at an early age what is
what's the difference betweenbeauty and something that's not
is very, is very important, asyou were saying, so that they
(40:54):
will develop these skills ofdiscernment.
And also going back to when youhad your reversion experience,
your conversion experience, thatyou went back to God, and I
feel like you know, as oursociety now a lot of it is
anti-God, anti-christian Godanyway, that we have kind of
(41:16):
lost our way and we sort of needthat sort of guiding presence,
guiding force to return to ourfoundation so that we are able
to also equip our children to begreat discerners at what is
true and what is not.
And I appreciate you coming onand on our podcast and it's fall
(41:41):
and, yes, school is back insession and I do highly
recommend your book, "he LittleDonkey, to the younger grades
there.
I mean, I am not a youngergrade, obviously, but I did
immensely enjoy it, so I guess Ishouldn't put an age limit on
that.
But yeah, I thank you so muchfor coming on.
And was there anything else youwanted to add?
Izabela Ciesinska (42:01):
No, no, just thank you for having me, sheila.
Um, I always enjoy talking toyou about these subjects and uh,
and hope to meet you one day.
Sheila Nonato (42:29):
Have a blessed, blessed weekend.
Thank you for sharing yourthoughts and your story Because
I think yeah, I'm pretty sureit's going to impact somebody
hearing your story.
Izabela Ciesinska (42:48):
Because there are a lot of us out there.
Who you know fell away I alsofell away in university and but
god and mother mary brought meback.
So anyway, Praise God.
Sometimes we have to fall away,like paul did.
Uh, sometimes the converts arethe are the strongest advocates
because they've seen the results.
Sheila Nonato (43:00):
Yeah, exactly, we've come back from the
wilderness, right?
Don't go there.
Yeah, yeah, we don't want to bethere anymore.
Anyway, have a good afternoon.
Thank you for spending a fridayafternoon talking to me, anyway
I would, I would, I.
Izabela Ciesinska (43:15):
I wouldn't want to be anywhere else having
these conversations about Christwith you, especially Sheila, so
articulate I would.
This is the way I want to spendmy Friday take care bye.
Welcome to Veil and Armour, Izabela Ciesinska.
You're an Ascension Pressauthor and illustrator and did
you want to maybe start off witha prayer, if you don't mind
joining me?
Yes, of course.
Okay, let's say the Hail MaryIn the name of the Father and of
the Son, of the Holy Spirit.
Amen, Hail Mary, Full of Grace,the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
(00:25):
womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, prayfor us sinners, now and at the
hour of our death.
Amen, In the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit
.
Amen.
Thank you for joining us andI'm just going to introduce you,
our listeners, to Izabela.
She was born in Communist Poland.
She grew up reading Europeanfairy tales, which inspired her
(00:46):
love of books and illustration.
When she moved to Canada, shecame across animated films for
the first time, which inspiredher illustration style.
She went on to have an athleticcareer in tennis and competed
for Florida Gulf CoastUniversity, where she graduated
in criminal forensics.
After graduation, she pursued acareer in film and illustration
(01:07):
.
Her debut short film premieredat the Montreal World Film
Festival in 2010, and she wenton to illustrate for clients
like Oxford University Press,the Concordia Publishing House,
the United Methodist PublishingHouse and the Pentecostal
Publishing House.
"The Little Donkey and God'sBig Plan is the author's debut,
(01:29):
which she's publishing with theCatholic publisher Ascension
Press.
She's a cradle Catholic thatfell away from the faith a few
years ago and recently returnedwith a deeper understanding and
appreciation for the faith.
In her free time she likesreading good books, discovering
great cinema, taking very longwalks and watching cute animal
(01:50):
videos on YouTube.
Welcome, Izabela,
Izabela Ciesinska (01:53):
Thank you for having me.
Sheila
Sheila Nonato (01:56):
And this is our second time.
Unfortunately, we did recordsomething, I think it's in May.
It was an awesome interview andthere was some technical issues
, so hopefully today we will nothave any of those and we will
be able to publish this.
But welcome, and I just wantedto talk about let's go right
into the book.
You have a new children's bookand I actually I love this book
(02:20):
and, like I was saying in thefirst interview, when I was
reading it, coming to the end, Iwas just filled with great
emotion because I could sort ofsense how nowadays I do have
young children.
So in this time of childhoodit's a time of innocence, also
vulnerability, and going throughsort of a transformation,
(02:42):
trying to find your place in theworld, going through sort of a
transformation, trying to findyour place in the world, and the
story of "he little donkey.
It is mirroring that path ofself-discovery and
transformation.
And can you tell us what wasthe inspiration of that story?
Izabela Ciesinska (02:57):
Well, that was at the early stages of me
returning back to Christianitynot Catholicism yet, but I have
been.
You know, I have gone astray forabout 20 years meddling in all
kinds of stuff and in 2014, Istarted kind of returning to it
(03:21):
and by the time I startedwriting "he Little Donkey, I was
already reading the Bible notevery day, but occasionally and
I came across the line thatJesus tells the apostles to go
and bring the donkey to him, andthat line just struck me
(03:42):
because it just felt immortal,like what that little donkey
accomplished, just doing exactlywhat he was designed to do.
I am now reading it in theBible and it just struck me
because it immediatelytranslated my mind to what a
divine purpose is.
And if a little donkey canserve Jesus Christ and
(04:05):
contribute to the salvation ofmankind, which is what he did,
jesus would have accomplished itanyway.
We know that.
But the little donkeyfacilitated in the way that he
was designed and that struck meand I thought I think there's a
story here about purpose forchildren and for adults that I
can expand on.
Sheila Nonato (04:28):
Beautiful and in terms of, I guess, your love for
reading.
You mentioned in your bio thatyou had sent me that European
fairy tales.
They had sort of this.
It was a catalyst for youwanting to read more and develop
a love for love for books.
What was it about these fairytales that captured your
(04:50):
imagination?
Izabela Ciesinska (04:51):
Well, two things.
One, they always had a goodmoral at the end.
There was no confusion, butthere were no moral lines that
were being blurred.
Um, the, the classic fairytales, but what, uh, what?
What struck me as a child morewas, of course, the artwork.
Uh, when I was growing up, we,we still had the fairy tales
(05:14):
that were traditionallyillustrated with a very heavy
european style.
That was a mesh between, youknow, victorian illustration and
even earlier, and, and it wasjust to me so beautiful, every
illustration was a work of art.
We really don't seeillustrations like this anymore.
You have to go to a museum,which I went to two years ago,
(05:38):
to look at some Victorianchildren's books, and there was
such a difference in style.
So I think the people back thenwere just more connected to the
principles of beauty.
I think, and, kind of speaking,more to my love of reading, I
started reading the classicsthis year.
(05:58):
I just told myself I think Ineed to try the classics, and so
I'm reading Wuthering Heightsnow and I read Jane Eyre just a
few weeks ago.
And let me tell you there issuch a difference in the use of
language as well.
In Jane Eyre, every chapterappeals to God or Jesus Christ,
and it's not a story aboutChristianity.
It's a story about just a girlgoing through her life, her
(06:22):
difficult life, and everychapter the author appeals to
Christianity, which further mademe understand those people were
far more connected to theprinciples of Christianity and
the principles of beauty andwhat makes good art.
So I noticed that very early onin the classical fairy tales.
Sheila Nonato (06:45):
What was your favorite fairy tale?
Izabela Ciesinska (06:49):
Oh, man, that changed.
I would say the one that Iremember from the classics, from
that time when I only knew thebooks.
I would say Rapunzel and SnowWhite, oh, and of course the
(07:09):
Little Red Riding Hood.
But which was my favorite?
I I don't my.
My taste changed when I came toCanada because my love of books
.
Then, you know, I discoveredanimation, which opened another
new world.
By discovered animation.
I mean, you know, I grew up inCommunist Poland.
(07:30):
We didn't have access toWestern animation.
So when I saw Bambi for thefirst time and I saw the Little
Mermaid for the first time, Iwas amazed.
So for the longest time theLittle Mermaid was my favorite
animation or fairy tale as myfavorite animation or fairy tale
.
And then, when I became afaithful Christian, I was like,
(07:50):
oh, oh, my mind changed on a lotof those fairy tales.
Because you know the Little RedRiding Hood, that came from a
time where in the Black Forestin Bavaria, children were
attacked by wolves.
You know, people lived asideand there was a warning for what
happens when you don't walk thepath you're supposed to walk,
when you don't go straight tograndma's house.
(08:11):
But the other fairy tales, likethe Little Mermaid, only later,
many years later, like decadeslater, did I realize, oh, that
there's some occultism in there,especially the new ones, the
classics.
There was, I think, moreoccultism in there, especially
the new ones, the classics.
There was, I think, more of amoral in there that don't meddle
in the dark stuff.
(08:32):
The Little Mermaid actuallypays with her life.
In the new one she getsrewarded right.
So there's this confusion inthe modern age.
We took those fairy tales andwe did kind of invert them.
So even though they were verybeautiful and they still are
aesthetically, I hate to admitit now that my favorite fairy
(08:53):
tale was in fact not something Iwould recommend to kids right
now.
Sheila Nonato (09:00):
You know that they are remaking, as you were
saying.
They're remaking all theseDisney classics to children and
are you saying that they mightnot be as good of a
representation of what theauthor had intended for those
fairy tales?
Izabela Ciesinska (09:18):
Oh, 100%.
When you look at the firstDisney trailer of the newest
Snow White and the dwarvesanyone who's seen that old
trailer knows what I'm talkingabout Then there's just no way
that the people of Bavaria fromlike 200 years ago that that's
(09:40):
how they envisioned it.
There was no gender bending iswhat I'm saying.
There was no confusion aboutthis stuff.
There was no confusion aboutthe role of a female and the
role of a prince.
They still kind of cultivatedthe code of chivalry from the
medieval times where the man wasthe man and he was supposed to
protect the woman, not becauseshe's weak, but because she
(10:02):
represents that vulnerable lifebearer in society, for which,
which, which the kingdomcompletely falls apart if you
don't take care of the mostvulnerable and the and the
bringers and protectors of life.
So so the old fairy tales stillhad that.
They were built on thoseclassical principles uh,
sensible principles I would saythat built a very strong modern
(10:25):
civilization that are now beingcompletely inverted, and the
media is always the first toinvert it so there were morals
being taught, as you hadmentioned, I think, even walt
disney back in the day.
Sheila Nonato (10:40):
He would have a show and he would first, he
would have children sitting downlistening to him before the,
the film uh started or thecartoon, and he would tell them
the moral.
There was a a good news storyto this.
You know, not specificallychristian, overtly christian,
but just you know, serve others,help others, help your mom and
dad, um, but just you know,serve others, help others, help
your mom and dad.
But now when you watch showsI've been watching some of my
(11:03):
kids shows there are no likePeppa Pig and all that.
It's really more entertainmentand not really learning so much.
What has changed?
Why do we?
I guess we're more sensitive toteaching.
You know we don't want toimpose our values.
Is that what's happening rightnow?
Izabela Ciesinska (11:22):
I think it's a long battle, sheila.
I think we've been fightingthis battle of liberalism for a
long time.
And I don't mean thispolitically, I really mean this
philosophically.
Philosophically it's all theway back in the Bible, where
people had a problem with godlyorder and they made it very
(11:46):
clear that they have a problemwith godly order.
And these were the people thatwere, you know, eventually wiped
out by God.
How long can you keep that kindof disorder going?
And it wasn't conquered backthen.
It continues to grow and Ithink the modern age is just a
rebellion against—it's an overt,I would say adolescent a very
immature rebellion against thesensible things, the moral
(12:23):
lessons and the values and thevirtues that these stories
taught.
They made great contributions tosociety.
That was the whole point ofmythology was to teach people
that the journey of the hero whoconquers these difficulties and
returns to his society withthis knowledge or whatever thing
of value he brings back Now,that's why everything is just
mindless entertainment today,because when the rebels and
(12:46):
those who value personal libertywhich almost always translates
into hedonism when theyprioritize that above all else,
then you will see it ripplingdown from all the positions
which they occupied, which Iwould say they mostly gravitate
towards positions of power,because they have a lot to gain
(13:08):
by dismantling legal andphilosophical structures that
force bad behavior into goodbehavior.
So they have no interest increating stories that will, uh,
guide people, particularlychildren, to adopt certain
(13:28):
behaviors that will not onlybenefit their own lives for
greater performance, but society.
Sheila Nonato (13:33):
So that's why we're seeing it and what do you
think about sort of a rolereversal?
You had mentioned about thehero, the chivalry aspect of
movies before I was watching onNetflix I believe it's a new
version of Cinderella and Ithink she had a choice of the
prince getting married or herpursuing a career, pursuing a
(13:54):
career, and it was really sortof, you know, she was very torn
because she she loved thisprince but she wanted to pursue
her dream and she couldn't haveboth.
It's sort of a either or choice.
What do you think about sort ofthe role of reversal, now that
(14:19):
you know I'm a woman and I don'tneed't need men, and and that's
the end of the movie.
Izabela Ciesinska (14:21):
Well, I'll tell you that, yeah, when women
say they don't need men, it'sjust so laughable, literally
laughable.
My mom and I laugh every timewe drive on the highway and
these poor men are there,sweating, digging the highway,
not a single woman in sight, youknow.
So it's always the women thatshout we don't need men, where
(14:44):
they're gravitating towards theeasiest jobs, the most
privileged jobs that actuallyare not contributing much to
society.
Let's get real about it, and Iknow it sounds harsh, but I
believe it's the truth.
I think let's get real about it, and I know it sounds harsh,
but I believe it's the truth.
I think, yes, there is a rolefor women to claim, a liberty
(15:18):
that expresses their creativityand their talents in a way that
serves even beyond society 100%.
A woman can be a mother, shecan be an author, she can be an
author, she can be a greatartist, she can change the world
that way for the better.
There's no reason why you can'tdo that, but to prioritize and
pursue those positions that areinherently not for women, that
are actually, I believe,demasculating and, in a way,
castrating masculinity in oursociety.
(15:40):
Take a female general in an armyyou're essentially asking the
young men to follow the ordersof a mom figure.
That is very unhealthy foryoung men.
Young men need a masculinefigure that they highly and
deeply admire, a figure that hasalready embodied masculine
values and virtues which theyare not yet, have not cultivated
(16:03):
themselves, and now they canfollow.
This whole inversion has nowpainted this picture where
you're putting young men thefuture, the guardians of our
society in a way where they'renow forced to follow their mom
or to conform to somegender-bending falsehood.
(16:25):
It's not going to benefitsociety in the least in the long
run.
I believe it's just not going toproduce strong men, and we
absolutely need strong men.
And in order for strong men tobecome strong, we need women
that are very secure in theirfeminine, because it is feminine
women that inspire strong mento eventually give up their
(16:46):
lives for something greater.
If they don't feel thatinspiration, what exactly are
they going to sacrificethemselves for?
That's why the army the numbersof men signing up to the army
in the States is dropping.
It's like record high numbers.
They're not signing up.
What for?
Sheila Nonato (17:05):
That's interesting and I'm just
wondering.
So I'm going to be.
I don't want to, I don't wantto say devil's advocate, because
I never want to be that, I'mjust going to be talking from
the other side.
So in Canada we do have afemale general and my husband is
in the army.
So he really admires thisperson and she got there based
(17:25):
on her merit.
She is absolutely qualified andhe served under her and she is
fabulous, a great patriot andwarrior for Canada.
Patriot and Warrior for Canada.
But, as you're saying, noteverybody is born or is skilled
in all the male professions orprofessions that were
(17:47):
traditionally male.
What, in terms Ceremoniesaspirations of women, trying to
sort of promote careers that arenot traditionally, trying to
sort of promote careers that arenot traditionally female?
How do we go about this interms of you know, with my
children, with children ingeneral?
How do we sort of approach thesubject of you know when they
(18:11):
ask what do you want to be whenyou grow up?
You know, nowadays, I thinkyou're not, you're not allowed
to, like, gender.
You know to speak in a genderedlanguage, right?
How do we approach this asCatholics, as people of faith,
in terms of fosteringimagination, creativity and also
encouraging them to dream,dream big.
(18:33):
How do we approach this?
On the one hand hand, there'ssort of this politicized
movement to get women intocertain professions that are
traditionally male.
How do we, how do we navigatethis?
Izabela Ciesinska (18:48):
I think the and the kingdom of God.
If a child has a burning desireand a talent to back it up,
that perhaps puts them outsideof a pattern in terms of
(19:12):
vocation, that may very well bealignment with their gender.
Let's say, a female astronaut,even a female general, so long
as it is backed by merit and itis not there for that political
reason or for ego.
I'm going to be the first woman, this or I'm a woman and I can
hear me roar.
That's not how we serve God.
(19:33):
We serve God by using our giftsand our predispositions that he
put there in order to serve theworld, and you will end up with
some women and men thatabsolutely excel and they excel
not just in terms of genius,like Elon Musk, but they excel
outside of their gender role.
(19:54):
But it has to be merit-basedand it has to be service-based.
If it's based on anything other, particularly ego or political,
it's going to, I think,contribute negatively to society
.
Sheila Nonato (20:09):
So we're going to go to another controversial
topic the Olympics.
All right, so I'm not an artist, but I do appreciate art.
The Olympic ceremonies caused agreat controversy, so much so
that the Ayatollah of Iran alsoeven was indignant about it.
(20:29):
I think he said, quote respectfor Jesus is an indisputable,
definite matter for Muslims.
We condemn these insultsdirected at the holy figures of
divine religions, includingJesus Christ.
So it even offendednon-Christians.
What are your thoughts about?
Because the Olympics issupposed to be sort of the
highest achievement of anathlete, and so the organizing
(20:52):
committee had four years to comeup with a masterpiece, really,
really for the world to showcasethe cultural heritage and
treasures of France.
And they came up with what wesaw, what has been interpreted
as a slight to the slight, Iguess, is maybe a softer term to
(21:14):
describe it a jab atChristianity at the Last Supper,
Although they were trying tosay it's not the Last Supper,
it's Greek mythology.
You're an artist.
What did you see?
Please explain to us.
What did we see?
Izabela Ciesinska (21:30):
Well, we did see the worldly, I guess, the
worldly definition of art andthe worldly liberal expression
of art, which usually relies onshock value because it doesn't
have much substance to rely on,but I would say the godly
expression of art.
(21:50):
It has to be an expression ofbeauty, truth and goodness.
Truth and goodness the beautyis only a tool to attract the
eye to the truth, and the truthis the thing that sinks into the
heart in order to inspire goodaction, goodness.
So that kind of art, I think ittakes a lot to create the true
(22:13):
beautiful kind of art.
I think is it takes a lot tocreate the true beautiful kind
of art.
I mean to even.
You know, you take any of theartists that contributed to, you
know any of the art in theVatican, and I'm talking mostly
about the Renaissance, theclassical art.
These were masters, and theywere masters at the age of 17.
(22:34):
When you look at Michelangelo'ssculptures from when he was 17,
they were, I mean, mind-blowing.
You don't have artists likethis today, let alone
17-year-olds.
So these people apprenticedfrom the age of like 12 in order
to master a skill that wouldallow them to get close to
creating an image thatrepresented whatever the divine
(22:58):
inspired in them.
These kinds of artists.
They're very few today.
They were always few, but backthen society cultivated them.
Today, it not only doesn'tcultivate them, it actually
glorifies the inversion of truth, beauty and goodness, which is
the shock value, worldly kind ofpart.
(23:20):
And so that's what we saw today, because so much of society has
accepted the rejection of godlyvalues and principles.
This is how they celebrate, andI've had a few discussions with
my friends about this, myfriends, my acquaintances from
(23:41):
film industry and they found ithilarious.
They found it hilarious, theyfound it artistic, they found it
, of course, brave and bold, um,but, uh, they, they found it
that way because they themselveshave rejected, uh, god in their
heart.
So anyone who loves God and whowants to be further, I think,
(24:05):
guided by God's knowledge andtruth and the gifts he gives us
through art, to us, to thosekinds of people, it wasn't art,
it was a clown show, and itqualifies as art as much as a
bad clown show can qualify asart, as you're saying that.
Sheila Nonato (24:26):
I'm just wondering um, I don't.
Well, I feel like they wouldnot do this to another religion
because it would be harder.
But who knows, knows, maybethey would have.
Is it difficult to be aChristian artist?
Izabela Ciesinska (24:42):
You know it's difficult.
If you care about worldlysuccess, If you want to make a
lot of money, if you want toappeal to Hollywood, if you want
to appeal to big brands, you'regoing to suffer.
But if you don't care about anyof those things which I don't
think we should, if yourgreatest concern or desire is to
(25:08):
know God and to serve Him inthe best way you can, not only
is it not difficult, it is themost fulfilling thing you can do
.
I enjoy my Christian projectsfar more because now they are
personal to me.
I feel like I'm laying down atiny, tiny, tiny little brick
(25:30):
within the kingdom.
Sheila Nonato (25:32):
Every time I create something Christian, it
feels different how do youdiscover God in art, in your art
?
Izabela Ciesinska (25:47):
I'm not sure you discover God in your own art
.
I think actually, actually Iwas going to answer it
differently, but now that I'mspeaking, I think the primary
desire has to be to know God andas the as you're creating like,
(26:09):
I'm working on my firstChristian novel now and I knew
what I wanted it to be about,but it turns out I'm kind of
writing about myself and myjourney.
It's not about me, it's it.
It's a biblical character andhis pursuit of God, and even
though I had the plot very clearin my mind, as I write I
(26:33):
suppose these mysteries unveilthemselves to the point where I
almost don't feel like I'mwriting it.
It's the, you know, the HolySpirit, and I think one of the
keys is prayer.
Every time I sit down to writeI pray and I ask the Holy Spirit
and God and Jesus to use mybody as a vessel to write what
(26:58):
they believe, what they know theworld needs, and so I suppose,
just dedicating oneself as avessel to God, then you open the
door to discover things throughyour own creation that he will
kind of guide and create throughyou.
(27:18):
So I guess that the primarystep is always surrender,
surrender to God, dedicate yourwork to him, ask him to guide
your every process, everysession, and then you yourself,
you're going to surpriseyourself.
Sheila Nonato (27:35):
Wow, thanks for sharing that.
Wow, when you mentioned yourreturn to God, when did that
happen?
Because you said you were acradle Catholic.
Then you fell away from thefaith.
Sharing that, wow.
When.
When you mentioned your returnto god, when did when did that
happen?
Because you said you were acradle catholic.
Then you fell away from thefaith for a few years.
When did that sort of lightbulb moment come that you, you
wanted to return?
Izabela Ciesinska (27:55):
the, the real the, the big light bulb moment
was my trip to ari Um.
Before then, I was in 2014,.
That was the last film.
Ironically, my last film, uhshoot, brought me to God.
Um, I left one and I went intothe other.
Uh, by then I was already, uh,I was uh, I was uh very deep
(28:20):
into atheism.
My father had passed a yearearlier and I was already like
five years in.
That was around the time wherethe new age, the new atheist
movement, was very, very big.
And they got to me.
They sound, they are very smart, they're very articulate.
(28:42):
And they got to me.
They sound, they are very smart, they're very articulate.
And they got to me.
And and so, in 2014, I wasalready a full blown atheist.
And we're driving from Torontoto California and the Arizona
moment we entered Arizona, Ijust I mean like five minutes
later I was a full blownbeliever.
Maybe I didn't believe in aChristian God and let alone
Catholicism, but I was afull-blown believer.
Maybe I didn't believe in aChristian God, let alone
(29:03):
Catholicism, but I was convincedthat there was a creator.
And the reason was that Arizonais just so unique and the
landscape is so majestic.
There's this primal force therethat's blended with some sort
of sub, uh, uh, sublime painting.
(29:24):
It's like beauty Turrone forcein in one, uh, and that really
struck me.
I mean it's so overwhelming.
And there the feeling there isdifferent.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it's because it's not, uh, the civilization hasn't
touched it and you areone-on-one with nature Mass and
the desert.
There's something so special inthe desert that by the time we
emerged from Arizona five hourslater Mass I was just yeah,
(32:14):
(OCIA )- Order of ChristianInitiation of Adults - I was
convinced that there's a creator.
And then, unfortunately, becauseI lacked the Turrone,
foundation, the Christianfoundation, I kind of strayed a
God bit and, uh, um, looked forgod in new age and and, uh, all
kinds of strange philosophies,hermeticism, all kinds of stuff,
um and uh that it brought me toprosperity gospel, because,
strangely, prosperity gospel andthe self-manifestation I can
accomplish anything, I cancreate my reality they kind of
overlap, um, and so that littleoverlap segued me into
christianity, um, and afterstaying there for maybe a few
months, I really I starteddeveloping a greater fascination
for the theology than that Ican make my dreams come true
part.
And so that's when I startedreading the Bible more,
listening to a lot more podcasts, and the more I started to
learn about Christianity and itsfoundations, its biblical
foundations, the more I startedto be drawn to the conservative
practice of Christianity.
I realized you can't practiceit any other way.
You have to commit to knowingit, to integrating it.
Um, and so that's.
That's where I've been, I think.
Sheila Nonato (31:11):
Uh,
Izabela Ciesinska (31:11):
I guess the light bulb moment was arizona.
And the second light bulbmoment into catholicism was when
I started writing the littledonkey, my children's book, and
Ascension Press decided topublish it.
And when I had an interviewwith them, I realized how much I
(31:33):
lack as a Christian, as aCatholic, and I felt not right
with myself that here I amwriting a book for this very
faithful Catholic publisher, toa faithful Catholic audience,
while I myself am lukewarm.
And so that's when I decided tostep to my local church, heard
Father Peter Turrone speak and Iwas like no, that's it, I'm
(31:54):
home and I haven't missed them.
Well, he would say I havemissed them, and I have missed
them when I visit my mom.
Sometimes I'm gone for a week,so I don't make it to Mass for
this church, but whenever I'mhere in Toronto, which is 99% of
the time, I always attend aMass.
And I'm starting RCIA (O.
(32:14):
C.
I.
A.
- Order of Christian Intiationfor Adults) next week, so I'm
almost done.
Sheila Nonato (32:18):
That's awesome, and shout out to Father Turrone
he is such a holy priest, thanksbe to God.
Yeah, I, I'm so just inspiredby your story, uh, your story of
conversion, and I'm so elatedfor you that you're you're
starting rcia.
Are you thinking of Easter timearound Easter time to become a?
(32:39):
catholic.
Izabela Ciesinska (32:40):
I, I think, so.
I.
I think that's how long theprogram is right.
We're starting next week andthen it goes.
So, yeah, yeah, I guess we'rewhenever, assuming I pass, I
don't know how it works, I don'tknow what I think you'll pass.
Sheila Nonato (32:58):
I have a slight idea that you know just joking,
no yeah.
Well, the your testimony is,yeah, just moves, moved me to
tears, to be honest, Justbeautiful, and I just wanted to
go back to.
You were talking about yourchildren's book.
Going back to children and,given that you know, there's so
much noise right nowadays socialmedia, video games, Netflix,
(33:23):
phones, even computers, so manythings that can take children
away from learning about art,what is real art, what is good
art how do parents, where do westart?
How do we introduce art to kidsthat you know they just want to
play on their iPads or whatever?
(33:43):
How do we start?
How do we inspire or sort ofjumpstart that love for beauty?
Izabela Ciesinska (33:52):
Well, I would say it starts with having these
, creating beautiful experiencesin your house.
I would definitely limit thephone and tablet because you
have no control, and that is awide range of worlds I would say
(34:16):
that a kid has access to and Iwould really limit that.
But something as simple ashaving beautiful classical music
always playing in thebackground, making sure that
beautiful paintings are there,family outings to a museum to
show them the classics, abeautiful trip to the Vatican or
(34:36):
a medieval village in southernFrance to show them how these
Catholic cities were built, youknow the difference between a
society that values God andlives for God versus society
that doesn't right.
Taking a kid out to a beautifultheater.
(34:58):
You know, and assuming maybeparents not everyone can afford
that, of course, uh, them beingvery, very selective with one's
books.
Have, have those, have a fewbeautifully illustrated, uh,
books from from the victoriantime, like, like, uh, the
velveteen rabbit.
You know the velveteen rabbit,such a beautiful story, a
(35:21):
beautifully illustrated Bible.
That is, I think you know, soinspiring.
I still remember the Bible thatinspired me.
I mean it was a Jehovah'sWitness Bible.
So I understand thecontradiction in that.
But that children's Bible thatthey gave to my family, um,
(35:44):
because they used to give themaway at the time in poland.
Um, I I still remember theimpact that those images had on
you know, because it was sobeautifully illustrated.
So so, to really have in yourhouse beauty and to be highly
selective with, um, the thethings that you expose your
(36:08):
children to at a very young age,because if they familiarize
themselves or if they grow upwith uh, true, truly beautiful
music, truly beautiful moviesthey're hard to find, but keep
those in your house Then whenthey go out there, they're going
(36:31):
to have that comparison.
When they're surrounded by true, profound beauty and they go
out in the world and they seethat shallow, empty, trendy
stuff, they're going to bebetter equipped to resist it.
And eventually they will.
Because let me tell you my dad,when I was growing up my dad,
(36:52):
when we used to travel to tennispractices, he would always play
his music in the car.
He wouldn't tolerate me playingmy music in the car and I used
to be angry at him back then.
But now I'm grateful becauseguess what music has survived in
my heart today?
I don't listen to the stuff Iused to listen to in high school
.
It's unthinkable, right?
(37:15):
I listened to the classics thatmy dad introduced me to, and
now, as an older person, I'mable to appreciate it more.
So it does stick with you.
It does stick with you even ifthe kids rebel for a time
because they want to fit in.
Eventually, what you put inthem when they're very, very
young, um you, you will simplyequip them, who eventually
(37:38):
choose the better stuff over thenot good stuff.
Sheila Nonato (37:43):
Yes, and the classics?
They're classics for a reason,right, there's no end date to
them.
They're always relevant.
And, yeah, what my husband hasbeen doing is actually letting
the kids listen to jazz.
He likes jazz and Frank Sinatra, so it's another time and
another era.
But you know what?
I don't know?
(38:03):
They don't know anything else.
I guess right now, right now,their world is still innocent,
so when they go out into theschool, it might change.
But, as you were saying, to begrounded in beauty, honesty,
truth.
I think that, hopefully, thatwill equip children nowadays to
(38:27):
be able to discern what is goodfor them and what will enrich
their lives, instead of takingaway from it or just wasting
time.
Right?
Was there anything else thatyou wanted to add?
Izabela Ciesinska (38:43):
Yeah, when you said when kids go to school,
man, I don't have children, butif I did I would really, if you
can, homeschool, homeschool.
If you can't, homeschoolCatholic school only and really
(39:03):
pay attention to the schoolboard, make sure they're real
practicing Catholics that arenot going to derail the system,
the Catholic system, into theworldly one.
They're there to preserve.
We, as Catholics, are there topreserve the ancient tradition,
not to please the world.
(39:24):
That's why we have thatseparation.
Anyone who wants to join ourchurches door's always wide open
, but we don't conform to theworld, and I think that's
important because it's going totake parents to really say no, a
(39:45):
big, bold capital, no when itcomes to the worldly things.
Because, no matter how well yourun things in your home, if
your kid is spending six hoursin school and the school is indo
, indoctrinating them with withunholy things, it will have its
impact, um, and it's reallygoing to take parents to, to not
(40:09):
just parents, um, but society,but but those who believe in
those Christian values.
There's no other way forward.
We have to defend them and wecannot send our children into
the wolf den, um.
So I would be very, at thisstage, I feel like it's, it's
unsafe to say, to send childreninto the, into a public school,
(40:31):
because you just don't know.
Sheila Nonato (40:33):
You don't know what they're going to come home
with wow, um, as you were saying, that we go back to our roots
and the foundation and introducekids at an early age what is
what's the difference betweenbeauty and something that's not
is very, is very important, asyou were saying, so that they
(40:54):
will develop these skills ofdiscernment.
And also going back to when youhad your reversion experience,
your conversion experience, thatyou went back to God, and I
feel like you know, as oursociety now a lot of it is
anti-God, anti-christian Godanyway, that we have kind of
(41:16):
lost our way and we sort of needthat sort of guiding presence,
guiding force to return to ourfoundation so that we are able
to also equip our children to begreat discerners at what is
true and what is not.
And I appreciate you coming onand on our podcast and it's fall
(41:41):
and, yes, school is back insession and I do highly
recommend your book, "he LittleDonkey, to the younger grades
there.
I mean, I am not a youngergrade, obviously, but I did
immensely enjoy it, so I guess Ishouldn't put an age limit on
that.
But yeah, I thank you so muchfor coming on.
And was there anything else youwanted to add?
Izabela Ciesinska (42:01):
No, no, just thank you for having me, sheila.
Um, I always enjoy talking toyou about these subjects and uh,
and hope to meet you one day.
Sheila Nonato (42:29):
Have a blessed, blessed weekend.
Thank you for sharing yourthoughts and your story Because
I think yeah, I'm pretty sureit's going to impact somebody
hearing your story.
Izabela Ciesinska (42:48):
Because there are a lot of us out there.
Who you know fell away I alsofell away in university and but
god and mother mary brought meback.
So anyway, Praise God.
Sometimes we have to fall away,like paul did.
Uh, sometimes the converts arethe are the strongest advocates
because they've seen the results.
Sheila Nonato (43:00):
Yeah, exactly, we've come back from the
wilderness, right?
Don't go there.
Yeah, yeah, we don't want to bethere anymore.
Anyway, have a good afternoon.
Thank you for spending a fridayafternoon talking to me, anyway
I would, I would, I.
Izabela Ciesinska (43:15):
I wouldn't want to be anywhere else having
these conversations about Christwith you, especially Sheila, so
articulate I would.
This is the way I want to spendmy Friday take care bye.
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