November 11, 2024 • 41 mins
In this week's episode, we pay tribute to the military and their families, all the holy souls we have lost to war, on this Rememberance Day in Canada and Veterans' Day in the United States.
We are joined by Josh Canning @catholicjosh , Catholic entrepreneur, content creator mental health advocate, and Catholic father of 10 children. Josh talks about the cross of depression and navigating mental illness in his marriage with wife, Lisa Canning, The Possibility Mom, former interior designer on HGTV Canada, and Catholic business coach.
How do you navigate the turbulent waters of mental illness in marriage while staying anchored in faith and hope? Join us as we sit down with Josh Canning, co-founder of "Persevere Together," who courageously shares his personal battle with depression and anxiety. Alongside insightful discussions on Remembrance Day and the sacrifices of soldiers, Josh's story opens up avenues of understanding, showing how vulnerability and seeking help can pave the way for healing and strength. This episode promises a heartfelt exploration of balancing love, mental health, and the powerful role of community support.
The journey of supporting a spouse through mental illness is both challenging and rewarding. As we recount personal stories, the focus shifts to the essential role of mutual support and communication within relationships. We delve into the inspiring work of "Persevere Together," a ministry dedicated to empowering spouses in caregiving roles. Our conversation also highlights our participation in the Bell Let's Talk campaign, emphasizing the importance of breaking the stigma surrounding mental health. By sharing these experiences, we aim to offer hope and guidance to those navigating similar paths, reminding them they're never alone.
In our final chapter, we turn to the holistic approach of nurturing mental health through lifestyle changes. From traditional practices like cooking with beef tallow and making bone broth, to the grounding effects of nature, we explore how these simple choices can profoundly impact well-being. We also discuss the pitfalls of technology and the importance of mindful presence during family meals. Josh and Lisa Canning's journey with "Persevere Together" becomes a testament to finding holiness in suffering, ultimately inspiring others to embrace their own paths of growth and transformation. Tune in for a conversation rich in faith, insight, and the courage to persevere together.
To reach Josh and Lisa via "Persevere Together," and to support their work: please visit:
https://www.youtube.com/@perseveretogether
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sheila Nonato (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
Seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(00:27):
.
Co-Host (00:27):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (00:36):
Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast
On this Remembrance Day.
On the 11th hour of the 11thday of the 11th month, we
remember all soldiers, allveterans and their families, and
also those who made theultimate sacrifice.
We remember you, we pray foryou and your families and we
thank you for your service.
(00:56):
And from St.
John, Chapter 15, Verses 12 to13, this is my commandment that
you love one another as I haveloved you.
Greater love has no man thanthis, that a man lay down his
life for his friends and my sonhas something to say.
"Thank you, Daddy, and allsoldiers, for your service.
(01:22):
Thank you, and I thank myhusband for his service to God,
family and country.
He has been on threedeployments and is always ready
to teach the message of servantleadership which we Christians
know very well and which ourLord modelled for us.
In today's podcast, we haveJosh Canning to talk about the
cross of depression and mentalillness that he and his wife,
(01:45):
lisa have carried during theirmarriage and also how they're
using this experience to helpother couples navigate
depression and mental illness intheir marriage.
Josh has worked in chaplaincyat York University and the
Newman Centre at the Universityof Toronto.
Lisa is known as "hePossibility Mom, who has been an
(02:07):
interior designer at HGTVCanada and is now a Catholic
women's business coach.
They have 10 children and havecreated a new ministry for
couples navigating depressionand mental illness.
It's available on YouTubeLocals, a new website, an
upcoming website and an upcomingebook resource, and this
(02:30):
ministry is called PersevereTogether.
Let's listen to our conversationwith Josh Canning.
Thank you and God bless.
Welcome back, Josh Canning,founder, with your wife, Lisa,
of Persevere Together on Localsand your new YouTube channel to
help Catholic couples navigatemental illness in their marriage
.
Welcome back, Josh Canning,founder, with your wife, Lisa,
(02:51):
of Persevere Together on Localsand your new YouTube channel to
help Catholic couples navigatemental illness in their marriage
and family.
Josh Canning (02:55):
Before we start, can you please lead us in a
prayer?
Yeah, I'd be happy to.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, Amen, Loving God, wethank you for this moment of
encounter, Lord and just, welift our eyes to you, knowing,
Lord, that you are alwayspresent with us, Lord, that you
always are knocking at the doorand inviting us into communion
with you.
(03:15):
So, Lord, we just give you ourthoughts in this moment.
Invite your presence and planfor this conversation, Lord.
Pray that people will beblessed by it.
Pray for Sheila's audience,Lord, and that anyone who this
might resonate with might justspeak a word of comfort and hope
to them.
We desire, Lord, that you beglorified in all things that we
(03:35):
do, and we pray this all inJesus' name.
Amen, In the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit
, Amen.
Sheila Nonato (03:42):
Thank you so much for that, and so we're picking
up where we left off.
Unfortunately we ran out oftime, but a very important
conversation on mental healthand I've had a couple of guests
already Rachel Wong, who had apodcast called the Feminine
Genius, and Father Rob Gallia ofAustralia, who had talked about
their struggles and how theywere able to overcome, talked
(04:06):
about their struggles and howthey were able to overcome, to
seek help and also to find Godin all of their struggles.
And I was listening to yourstory on Halo app, a powerful,
powerful story that I highlyencourage listeners to listen to
.
It was entitled the Cross.
Can you tell us?
In your telling of the storyyou were saying that you sort of
(04:27):
noticed that things were notquite as they were or should be
when you both had two childrenand the third on the way.
Can you tell us what were thesigns?
How did you know you needed toseek help?
Josh Canning (04:44):
Yeah, it started with me thinking that I just
needed a bit of time off fromwork because I was experiencing
a high degree of stress and itbegan to manifest in difficulty
sleeping and essentially racingthoughts.
It was really tough but Ithought that was just perhaps a
high degree of work stress andjust being overdue for a
(05:05):
vacation.
But what I would experience isI would be feeling negative and
fighting negative thoughts a lotduring the day and then when I
would go to sleep I would wakeup and immediately be worrying
and thinking about work andthinking about problems that I
couldn't solve and feeling verychallenged and eventually
feeling like I was essentiallytrapped and there wasn't a way
(05:25):
to win at life anymore.
A friend, when I was going outwith a couple of buddies
mentioned to me, noticed that Ididn't seem as happy as I was in
my previous job and made methink, hey, there's something
actually visible to people inthe way that I'm acting or the
way that I'm talking aboutthings.
And then it got to a point whereI think it was the next morning
(05:46):
or next evening I was changingmy daughter's diaper and I
became incredibly overwhelmedthrough the task.
She was just being a normal, youknow rambunctious kid, you know
fighting as best as she couldagainst having her diaper
changed.
And I got to a point where Iwas saying please just stop
moving, please stop moving.
And my voice took on such anintensity that my wife came and
(06:09):
kind of interjected and tookover the rest of the diaper
change and I went into thebedroom and closed my door and
sat on my bed and just brokedown and wept and I just
remember feeling like I can'teven change it, I can't even
change a diaper, like I can't doanything right in my life, you
know.
And that was when I realizedthat it wasn't just normal work
stress.
(06:29):
I was really feeling trulydefeated in life and there was
not a normal sort of release orcadence of, you know, joy and
sadness in life.
It was just I was kind of beingovercome by sadness and it was
at that point that I decided togo and speak to a counselor.
Sheila Nonato (06:50):
And so you were saying you were not doing what
you used to do normally.
That you felt, was it paralyzed?
What did you feel?
How do we notice signs in ourspouse that there's maybe
something not quite right andthey need our help or they need
somebody else's help?
Josh Canning (07:08):
Yeah, it can be elusive.
And I'll just say as, with acaveat, I've learned that
there's a thing called smilingdepression, where people seem to
act normal and it's notapparent what's happening with
them.
They're able to put on a good,perhaps a good show, a good face
, and so it's really can be veryhard to detect in some cases.
In my case, I think what waswould have been visible is that
(07:31):
I slowly became less joyful.
I was not in terms of like mynormal personality.
I wasn't making quips or jokesor being playful quips or jokes
or being playful, I was moresort of consumed with problems.
(07:51):
I would have just seemed morepreoccupied and then eventually
much lower energy, eventually,when this is, one of the
symptoms of depression was evenjust having trouble
concentrating or focusing onthings.
So it was both just a lack ofthe normal enjoyment in life and
there's a word for that.
I forget what the word is.
I have it in this book overhere "The Catholic Guide to
Depression.
But essentially you lose thethings that normally bring you
(08:13):
joy, no longer bring you joy.
But then there are othersymptoms.
Can be, you know, the racingthoughts, the difficulty
sleeping, the weight changes,the persistent sadness and me
eventually, even a lack of focus.
So, if you can imagine, sort ofreading or prayer becomes
difficult because it's just hardto um have the same mental
focus they used to have.
(08:33):
So those are some of the thingsmy wife also would notice in me
anxiety, where I would start tokind of, you know, rub my head
or scratch my head, or I mightput my hands down on the on the
table in front of me and kind ofmove them apart and back
together, that type of thing.
So a little bit fidgety.
But as I said, you know peoplecan manifest some of these
symptoms or none of them, andthat's one of the challenging
(08:54):
things about mental illness.
Sheila Nonato (08:57):
And so I yeah.
So I'm just wondering for thosecouples who might be struggling
with this and, like you weresaying, a smiling sort of
depression how do you, how wouldwe pick up on the signs?
Is there in that book that youhave, you have, is there some
sort of guide, a checklist thatwe could sort of confer or refer
(09:19):
to?
Josh Canning (09:20):
Yeah, there is, there is.
So, for example, once you goout and see a psychiatrist,
they'll give you a diagnosis,basically, and it's essentially
a survey, and they're asking youof these different symptoms.
How often do you experiencethem from?
Like you know, sometimes neverto most of the time or all of
the time, and they range from anumber of different things.
(09:42):
The most severe might be likethinking, like thoughts of death
or have you ever had thoughtsof ending your life, and
essentially you go through them.
And if you have I believethere's in the one that we do in
Canada, I believe it's ninesymptoms, and if you have five
or more for a period of twoweeks or longer, then that may
be considered a depression.
(10:04):
If you again there's Againthere's normal kind of
institutes of life.
So if you have some bad daysone week and less the next week
and that type of thing, then itmight be simple.
You know different lifechallenges and things that we
might learn to cope with better.
But it's when it kind of takeson this sort of persistence over
a period of time that we mightsay it's actually settling into
a condition which we may calldepression, but it does require
(10:25):
the help of a.
So I would say the diagnosisyou could do on your own or with
your spouse, but then it wouldneed you would need to seek the
help of a healthcareprofessional to then sort of
formalize that and figure outwhat's a plan to work with them.
But it can be very helpfulbecause sometimes it's hard to
know in ourselves.
Like I said, I used to think itwas just work, stress or I just
needed a vacation.
(10:46):
But it can help to havesomething objective to say hmm,
this is a bit more serious, Ishould take it to the next level
.
Sheila Nonato (10:54):
So you, when I guess, at around this time that
you were experiencing this, youboth have, you know, public sort
of personas.
Your wife was on TV in interiordesign and you were working in
campus ministry and then youdecided when did you decide to
write the blog to share yourexperience?
Josh Canning (11:13):
Yeah, it took a while.
So it started with me takingtime off work, I think, as we
spoke about in the last one inthe last discussion, and when I
came back from work, so for thestudents that I was close with
the people that I was serving, Ididn't tell them why I was gone
and people really didn't.
I mean, people are very curious.
There was only one I ended upkind of speaking to in specifics
, but it was hard for me tospeak about, even with my boss
(11:35):
and colleagues at the time, as Imentioned, even with my close
friends or even my spouse.
So it was about the anniversaryof the time that I took time
off that I published a blog post, and at the time it was called
"my Dark Secret, because eventhen, still, it felt like
something really vulnerable.
It wasn't something that I wasnecessarily comfortable with,
(11:58):
but I could think back to thattime of how isolating it felt
and how hearing stories that Icould relate to was so helpful,
and so that motivated me towrite a blog post basically
describing it, describing thefeeling, the thoughts, what it
felt like, the shame, andpublishing it.
And I remember I wrote itfairly quickly and I hesitated a
(12:22):
long time before I hit thepublish button.
I wrote it fairly quickly and Ihesitated a long time before I
hit the publish button and then,after I did, I felt very
uncomfortable or vulnerable fora little while because it was
out there and I don't know Still.
I mean, I know we do a lot tosort of reduce the sort of
stigma of mental illness, but Istill thought like how is this
going to impact the way peoplethink about me, you know,
(12:45):
perhaps my future employmentpossibilities, all these things.
But I felt like it's kind of,you know, sunlight might be the
best place to put this.
So, yeah, so that was, that was.
That was a big, I guess, stepin my process of acceptance of,
I guess, who I am and and thisreality of my life.
And it definitely gets easiertalking about it after that once
it's kind of out in the open.
Sheila Nonato (13:04):
It definitely gets a lot easier so you
mentioned about the stigma,about mental illness.
So bell you, you and lisa werepart of the campaign.
It's a bell, let's talkcampaign.
Well, let's talk yes yeah, andand why did you join?
Josh Canning (13:19):
yeah, yeah, they reached out to us.
Um, they they tend to hit ondifferent um focuses with
regards to, um, the reality ofmental illness.
And this one year they reachedout to us.
They tend to hit on differentfocuses with regards to the
reality of mental illness.
And this one year they reachedout to us because they wanted,
just like, stories of regularpeople.
You know they had had storiesof Olympians and actors and
comedians and whatnot.
And they said, well, we justwant to hear from you know
regular, you know regular people, moms and dads, and you know
(13:43):
truck drivers and you knowwhatnot.
And so they reached out to usand invited us and so we were
part of a campaign that rancommercials in Canada, was even
run during the Super Bowl, whichwas pretty cool, although our
commercials for the Super Bowlaren't as good in Canada.
But that's neither here northere.
But essentially, yeah, it was away of going even more public
and simply just being wellwilling be featured that
(14:06):
particular year as well.
They were putting a bit ofemphasis on the supporting
spouse, just recognizing thatthose who care for people
struggling with depression orother mental illnesses also
carry a load, and we want tocelebrate them and support them
as well.
Sheila Nonato (14:21):
So part of your ministry with Persevere Together
, which is available on locals,and you also created a new
YouTube Channel is to help umspouses to be able to help their
spouse who is dealing with this?
How, how do?
How do spouses who aresupporting in a supportive
capacity?
How do we, how do we help?
Josh Canning (14:39):
Yeah.
So this is one thing we noticedwith, um, you know with.
So, as I mentioned my blog,Lisa's blog, Lisa's youtube
channel, we noticed a hugeresponse.
You know with.
So, as I mentioned my blog,lisa's blog, Lisa's YouTube
channel, we noticed a hugeresponse, uh, of people.
Basically, those were the most.
It's funny that the channelwasn't really about depression
and marriage, but those videos,uh, just sort of took off.
They went viral and what welearned through the comments is
(14:59):
a lot of the people searchingfor those videos weren't
actually the person strugglingwith depression.
It was the spouse who's tryingto figure out what's going on,
and we found that for themhearing from the person in my
shoes so the person who can nowtalk about mental illness and
what it felt like, and theperson who was in the supporting
(15:20):
role, who didn't know what todo at first and has learned over
time how to be a supportingspouse, and the communication
that needs to take place betweenboth we found that they needed
to hear both of those sides ofthe story and that that brought
a lot of hope and an ability tore-engage their spouse, who's
suffering, in a new way, with anew hopefulness.
(15:42):
So I guess I would say with"Persevere Together.
We just recognize that is thatit's the person who's
experienced mental illness mightnot even at times have the what
do we say?
The motivation to search foranswers.
They may everyone's different,but the spouse who is feeling
(16:04):
isolated by the illness thatthey don't have is probably also
searching for answers and wewant to try and find a way to
speak to that person.
The reality is also like in ourcommunities a lot of the
resources that are built up areto support the person who is
experiencing mental illness,more so than the person who's
supporting.
So we just really felt thatthat was perhaps a gap we were
(16:28):
being called to step into and wewant to lend our experiences
that we want to support bothbecause again a married couple,
the two become one flesh.
But we recognize just thatthere is a real need to speak to
the supporting spouse.
Sheila Nonato (16:41):
And when you're saying that the caregiver in
this instance also needs support, how crucial was that for your
wife to also be able to havesomebody to, I guess, have to
get some ideas on how to helpyou.
How crucial was that, and howcrucial is that for spouses who
are supporting?
Josh Canning (17:01):
It is very crucial .
The reality is is it can be so.
Okay, let's just even step backfor a step.
Communication in marriage canbe challenging period, right?
You know, like I think of G.
K.
's yesterday and said you know,if you're looking for somebody
you're compatible with, don'tlook for someone of the opposite
sex.
Men and women are inherentlyincompatible.
Right, it's already challenging.
You throw in a challenge likemental illness into the equation
(17:22):
.
There's different fault linesthat you might not be aware of,
you might not know.
Like just thinking of aspecific situation, like when I
had to go away from thatsituation changing the diaper of
my daughter.
Lisa didn't know what was goingon and I wasn't able to
articulate what was going on.
(17:43):
All she could see is somebodyis really overwhelmed and I
don't know why.
So for the supporting spouse, Iwould say that I think Lisa
would say that both parties needto do a bit of a dive into
understanding what is happening,what is mental illness and how
is it manifesting?
Because there's times when Ican articulate what I'm
(18:05):
experiencing, what I'm goingthrough, and maybe I'm not in
the best season and I'm having abad day or week through, and
maybe I'm not in the best seasonand I'm having a bad day or
week or whatever.
And there are other times where, if Lisa understands how
depression works and how itmanifests in me, she can say hey
, I don't think you're quiteyourself right now.
I don't know if you realize,I've noticed some things.
Have you noticed this?
(18:25):
And so, in a sense, both of youare becoming experts in the
situation and both of you arelearning to communicate in a way
about it, in a way that doesn'tbring conflict.
If there's, if there's ignoranceon either side, it can be more
challenging.
And so, as an example, when Iwithdrew during that period, as
I mentioned, I took time offwork, I sought counseling, I
(18:48):
decided to try to startexercising again and start to do
what I could to give myself thebest possible mental outlook.
Part of that meant not sayingyes to all of the social
invitations we might experience,and at first that was really
hard for Lisa, because she's avery social person and has a
certain vision of how ourmarriage should go.
(19:10):
I think probably every marriedcouple can relate to this, and
in the very beginning shestruggled as well, in the same
way that I struggled to talkabout it, and maybe in part
because I was in public about it.
She struggled to attend thingswithout me, without explaining
why, why, and also perhapsfeeling at the time the same
sort of you know, slight levelof embarrassment or shame of I
(19:33):
don't know how to talk about.
My husband has depression and Idon't know if my family knows
how to process that.
You know, um, but over time, aswe both get more comfortable
with understanding what it isand we both become less, um,
secretive about it than we canboth communicate with each other
and others in a much morehealthy way.
(19:55):
So I'm not sure if I hit thecore of your question there,
Sheila, because there's many,many things we could say about
it in terms of, like, how Lisaperhaps gets her own support
system.
That's another, another pieceof it that we think is really
important and that's part of whyPersevere Together is a project
that we believe is worthpursuing.
Lisa found a private Facebookgroup for the supporting spouse,
(20:19):
so a lot of in this case it wasa lot of wives whose husbands
had different mental illness andwas able to hear and to speak
and to put out specificquestions or thoughts or words
of encouragement at differenttimes, and when she mentioned
that in one of her YouTubevideos, a lot of people started
asking like how do I join agroup like that?
I need that group because theonly thing that I've seen that I
(20:43):
can resonate with is this video, but I need more.
That's really part of where theidea of Perseververe together
is planted in our minds.
Sheila Nonato (20:53):
And I guess the phrase persevere together.
I'm also thinking about thefamily.
I know there's still the stigmaof mental illness.
Do we introduce this to ourchildren, or how do we introduce
it?
What language?
How do we explain this to them?
Josh Canning (21:10):
Yeah, that's a great question and I would say
it's very age dependent.
So I have a 15 year old and Itold him in specific words only
recently.
I said you know,J john, I don'tknow if you know this, but you
know I struggle with depressionand you know I just mentioned a
specific time where it waschallenging.
(21:31):
I didn't go into great depth,but I just says, like you know,
I thought you should know that Istruggled with depression and
he processed it and he was like,well, that must've been really
hard.
And I was like, yeah, yeah,it's hard.
You know, we learned to walkwith these things, but it was
hard and it is hard.
My younger kids I have notmentioned the word to them.
I don't think they wouldnecessarily know what it means
(21:53):
and I don't want them to worry.
So if it is a challenge, Ithink you can be honest with
them without necessarilyworrying them, and so the way
that I would do that is I mightsimply say you know, Daddy needs
a bit of a quiet time for a bit.
For example, I went off to asmall cabin a little while ago
(22:13):
and when they were like, why isDaddy going off to the cabin by
himself?
I just said one thing that wastrue.
One I'm getting over being sick.
Two, Daddy's just been havingheadaches lately and not
sleeping that well, and Daddycould just use a break.
So you're not lying to me.
You're telling them part of theperhaps symptoms, of what you
need relief from, but you don'tneed to necessarily tell them a
(22:39):
word which can have all kinds ofmeanings which they might not
fully understand.
So that's my personalphilosophy about it is, you
don't want the kids to worry,but you also don't want to, you
know, create any kind of likeyou know, false impression.
You just tell them what they'reable to accept, which when
(22:59):
they're really young, doesn'tneed to be a lot, and when
they're older, you can unpack itwith them authentically when
you know they're ready.
Sheila Nonato (23:09):
Yes, that's good advice.
Yeah, absolutely Ageappropriate.
And yeah, I guess kids justwant to feel secure and you,
being honest and open with youroldest, I think that probably
helped kind of anchor hissecurity because he knows that
both of you are in this together.
As you know, your YouTubechannel name is "Persevere
(23:32):
Together, you're, you're in this, in this for the long haul, so,
and you are rooted in Christ.
And I am curious also, yourhallow in hallow, the hallow app
you have.
Your talk was titled the cross.
How did you get through thecross of mental illness and how
did this help you grow inholiness together?
Josh Canning (23:59):
Well, there was a period of needing to learn
acceptance and this is one ofthe things I think we mentioned
in the meditation is that wewould like to choose our crosses
.
We would like to choose verylittle crosses, right?
I don't know if other peoplestruggle with this, I would
imagine so, but I struggle withwanting to plan my life to go a
(24:21):
certain way, and the reality isit involves comfort.
It's hard for me to say I wouldembrace any specific sickness
or discomfort or trial.
I am in my fallenness.
I would choose the smallestpossible cross, but at the time
(24:42):
that I was experiencing myillness, I could get to the
place where I didn't understandit.
But I understood enough throughthe understanding that God asks
us to pick up our cross dailyand follow him.
Pick up our cross daily andfollow him.
And it just occurred to me thatthe particular cross God was
(25:03):
asking me to carry was thisreality of depression.
This reality of depression and,with that being the case, if
it's like, if I can understandthat I don't fully understand
this, but I understand that it'sGod's will then I can do this
and, I think, anybody who mightbe in a similar boat.
Why is X happening to me.
Why is Y happening to me?
Well, it's happening, and God'sasking us to pick it up and to
(25:28):
follow him.
And if God's asking us to dothis, then it's ultimately for
our good and we will not be leftalone to do it.
God doesn't ask us to pick upthe cross and make our own way.
It's we're following him, andso we can be at peace about that
to some extent.
That doesn't mean the cross isever easy, right.
I mean, jesus was accompaniedby our Blessed Mother on the
(25:52):
root of his passion.
No better company.
But that doesn't mean it wasever easy, of course.
But there's intimacy there,there's a purpose to it all, and
we can believe that we willunderstand it more fully in the
next life.
So that's my thought on it.
I mean, the other piece of itis, I believe now, having just
sort of been very open about itis that our crosses can also be
(26:15):
sources of light for others, andso we can take comfort in that
as well.
Sheila Nonato (26:23):
And the book you mentioned earlier.
What was it again, and can youtell us what can we expect in
reading this resource?
Josh Canning (26:31):
Yeah.
So the book.
I'll hold it up right here.
It's called "he Catholic Guideto Depression.
It's by Dr.
Aaron Kheriaty I believe he wasat Stanford University, and
what's great about that is hebrings the insights that come
from modern psychiatry blendedwith our Catholic faith and
understanding of the humanexistence, our anthropology.
(26:53):
And those things together arewhat I think can make mental
illness truly make sense.
If you don't understand thecross and the virtue that comes
with redemptive suffering, thenI think there's always going to
be something missing there.
You know, the Greek Stoicsmight find some ability to cope
with it, but when you reallyunderstand what Christ has
(27:14):
revealed about God's lovethrough the cross, then
suffering takes on a wholedifferent shape.
But he brings in an awarenessof what we know through modern
science, with also stories ofsaints who struggle with mental
illness, what we can do in termsof the sacraments and prayer,
simply like what we can reallyknow when we bring our faith
(27:35):
into this picture.
So it's a very useful resourcein that regard.
I read it, pick it up and put itdown frequently.
But I'll also mention my wifeand I are working on a resource,
an ebook that's meant forcouples who are in a situation,
finding themselves in asituation like we were.
So it's a bit more of a bookabout the Catholic couple who's
experiencing depression and whatare their next steps and how
(27:58):
can they see a light at the endof the tunnel with that
experience.
So yeah, I mentioned this one alot, but I also think there's
perhaps more resources whichcould be provided and that's why
we're working on an e-book.
I hope you don't mind if I alsomention we're fundraising for a
video series that a couple couldwatch at home and spur
discussion.
As I mentioned, when I wasexperiencing depression it was
(28:20):
very hard to focus, so even abook might be a bit of a
challenge when you're in themidst of it.
But perhaps a 10-minute bookepisode of a video series maybe
that'll just be perfect to getthe discussion going.
So that's another sort of thingthat's in the works.
With "Persevere Together, we'refundraising for that now.
Sheila Nonato (28:37):
Where can the viewers and listeners find you?
How do they help out with this?
Josh Canning (28:43):
Yeah, so we do have a web domain.
This is still early, but wedon't have our page up yet.
But perseveretogetherorg is ourweb domain.
Perseveretogetherorg.
People can come and learn moreabout us there.
You can also find us on YouTubeat youtubecom slash, at
perseveretogether or www.
perseveretogether.
locals.
com.
(29:05):
Those would be the three places.
Sheila Nonato (29:07):
Okay, awesome, and I'm going to go to social
media because I I watch Lisa'sinstagram and so much activity
in your household amazing andI'm very.
It's almost like homesteading.
I know you guys moved so I feellike, wow, you have organic
meat and what is this beef suet?
I, I don't know what that is.
Can you tell us, like how andhow does that help you with, you
(29:29):
know, your overall health?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I have adream to actually do farming at
some point.
We'll see whether that ever?
Josh Canning (29:32):
Can you tell us, and how does that help you with
your overall health?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have adream to actually do farming at
some point.
We'll see whether that evercomes to pass, but no, we live
in an area that's a bit rural.
It's a city, but it's a littlebit more rural.
There's a lot of farms around,and so mental health is
connected to our physical health, obviously, and I'm reading a
lot about nutrition and ourmetabolic health and how that
(29:53):
impacts the symptoms ofdifferent mental illnesses.
So what you would have seen onInstagram is we're trying to
cook a lot with beef tallow.
So essentially, this beef suetis beef fat that you render down
and then basically use it likeyou would use butter or any kind
of cooking oil, because that'sa lot more healthy for us and
good for the gut.
(30:14):
You probably also would haveseen me making bone broth.
This is a very kind of collagenrich drink made from the
basically 24 hours of stewingthe bones of beef, and then we
freeze a lot of it and that'svery, very good, for I find it's
good for sleep.
Collagen is supposed to be goodfor sleep, but these kinds of
(30:36):
habits, as well as preparingmore of our own food rather than
eating processed or fast foodis also, I think, part of the
equation of general physicalhealth which impacts our mental
health.
Sheila Nonato (30:49):
And when you were talking about making your own
food and helping that, how thathelps our physical health.
Josh Canning (30:59):
That obviously will boost our mental health as
well, correct, yeah, absolutely,and it's a good communal
activity, which is good for us,right?
We're social beings and itfeels good.
It's good for our kids to betaking on and learning new kind
of tasks.
I love that.
Another thing that Lisa doesright now is she's joined the
whole sourdough revolution.
(31:19):
She makes bread for usregularly.
The house smells amazing.
Kids are learning to do it aswell, and no, I think that's all
good for us and it's one ofthose things we've perhaps
gotten away from too much in themodern world.
It's good for us to work withour hands, prepare our food and
be connected to that wholeprocess.
Sheila Nonato (31:39):
That's amazing.
Yeah, we tried sourdough and Ifeel like sourdough has so much
it made me realize the gospel,you know, when Jesus says he is
the bread of life.
Like that's kind of thesourdough you have to constantly
be feeding it and it's kind oflike our faith life If we don't
feed it, nourish it, it kind ofdies.
So but yeah, yeah it's amazinghow sourdough can help us
(32:03):
understand the Bible a littlebit.
But are there other ways?
You know you're out in nature?
That also helps with mentalillness and keeping us healthy.
Is that correct as well?
Josh Canning (32:14):
100%, yeah, I mean .
So we lived in Florida for awhile and it's one of the things
that drew us down there was thesunlight.
It's really good for us to getsunshine on our skin, on our
eyes.
It helps regulate our sleep, sothat's all very important.
We have a little brewery nearbyhere and we will go there
because it has so much outdoorspace.
(32:35):
It's basically like a farm witha brewery and we go out there
and myself and some of the kidswe go out there and flip-flops
immediately kick them off andget our feet in the grass.
And that's another.
Apparently that's interestingbut like another health practice
called some people call itgrounding or earthing connecting
you with the magnetism of theearth.
It sounds kind of new age, butactually there are studies which
(32:56):
talk about it and how it'simportant for our body to be
connected with earth.
It's actually kind of unnaturalthat we're always in rubber
shoes.
It's better for us to kind ofbe in the soil, be in the dirt,
be in the grass.
We're not going to have toomuch opportunity for that.
Pretty soon here in Canada,it's going to be wintertime and
we're going to be missing that.
So we try to experience that aswell and yeah, I do believe
(33:17):
that's good for your health andyour mental health.
Sheila Nonato (33:20):
Yeah, and I guess connecting with nature I mean
not like a woo-woo new age thing, but like God's creation seeing
it.
You know, I know now kids andadults, you know we're
unfortunately addicted to ourscreens and being out there you
realize, wow, I don't need tolook at somebody else's life, I
(33:40):
can focus on mine and work onmine and connect with my family.
Yeah, I think what I was seeinga couple.
I think they were together andthey were eating, but they were
looking at their phones.
So it was a little bit of amissed opportunity, I guess, to
connect.
Maybe they were texting eachother, who knows?
Josh Canning (33:56):
It's always tragic , right, because we are
relational beings and we shouldalways be open to moments of
encounter.
And I think that's the worstchallenge.
I guess these things can beused for good, but if they
become an anchor or adistraction, then in a way they
artificially remove us from asituation.
(34:18):
And what a beautiful moment,when you're having a meal, to
have an encounter with people.
We can think of that happeningso many times in the Bible,
where this signifies communionof people, you know, exchanging
ideas and relationship andrelationship being established.
In fact, we think even how itwas scandalous that Christ ate
(34:38):
with tax collectors because, oh,what are you establishing this
sort of equality or connectionwith these people?
Don't you realize that'sscandalous?
So they could recognize, forpositive and for negative, that
the meal was really sacred andimportant.
And so I would say, yeah, Inever, I mean personally.
I would say my recommendationto anybody would be, as a rule,
like never, or very sparingly,use your phone when you're at a
(35:02):
meal with somebody.
Put it away, you know, and andbe open, and and be open to the
tastes, you know, and the smells, and the people before you and
the voices, and you'll be betteroff.
We have to yeah, we're notdisembodied beings.
We have to be living incarnateand in communion with each other
.
Sheila Nonato (35:21):
And lastly, so I was.
Maybe I'm too much into socialmedia but anyway.
I saw Lisa's post on InstagramI think it was last week.
She was posting about what doyou or maybe it was you what do
you guys do for Sunday?
How do you celebrate the Lord'sday and do?
You guys have specificactivities for that specific day
?
Josh Canning (35:40):
Yeah, we have.
We have a range of specificactivities, so that would be one
day that if we are usingscreens.
So let me, let's start.
The most important, mostimportant obviously, is Holy
mass.
That's like the anchor of ourSundays.
That's the thing which we buildeverything else around Beyond
that, those are the days wherewe actually do a little bit more
food prep.
Kids are home for school, so Ithink I might have been making,
(36:01):
or we're finishing, bone broth.
On that day, we'll do cheeseboards and we'll do bread.
That'll be a day where we'revery open to having other
families over and having a glassof wine and cheese together.
We also love to do if we aregoing to use screens that's when
we do family movies.
So we often watch John Waynemovies or something like that,
which has an appeal perhaps toall ages.
(36:24):
Maybe it requires someexplaining with differences of
the 50's and today, but we tryto do those things rather than
people get locked up in theirown more individual activities.
We try to think what can we dotogether as a family and build
memories, board games, puzzling,all these things we think is
really important, and then if weare taking a quiet moment
sometimes it's even just readingin each other's presence can be
(36:45):
a positive thing.
So those are some thoughts andsuggestions for for families.
Oh, I'd be remiss to notsuggest a Rosary walk.
We love doing those as well,connecting nature and prayer.
But yeah, those are some of thesuggestions I would make.
That's what we do.
Sheila Nonato (37:00):
Awesome.
And did you have any words ofencouragement for a couple who's
listening or watching, or aspouse who may think maybe we
need to go and explore thissituation, that we might need
some help?
Can you offer them some wordsof perhaps encouragement or
advice?
Josh Canning (37:20):
Yeah, I would say, first and foremost, don't be
afraid to ask the question.
Is something wrong here?
Am I experiencing somethinglike a depression or clinical
anxiety or something like that?
Don't be afraid to ask thequestion and don't be afraid to
take this first small step, thatyou need to get an answer to
that, so that might be talkingabout it with your wife or a
(37:40):
friend or someone you know whomaybe has experienced something
similar.
For me, the next step afterthat was to contact Catholic
Family Services and get acounselor and to begin to talk
about what I was experiencing,and essentially it's one step at
a time.
If you need to go further thanthat, if you need to go see a
psychiatrist, that's down theline.
Just take the first next step.
(38:01):
Maybe it's contacting yourfamily doctor, but do something
so that you know you're nottrapped, you are exerting your
own individual creativity inthat situation and you are
taking the next right step.
If you find yourself in a reallyrough patch like that, like a
clinical depression, what I tellpeople who are experiencing it
is you have to move thegoalposts a little bit in a
(38:23):
positive way.
So maybe before you were ableto achieve, you know, this level
of productivity and this levelof things in a day.
You know this level ofproductivity and this level of
things in a day.
Well, what if you only focusedon achieving three things in a
day?
What if it's?
You're going to move your bodyand get exercise, you're going
to try to find something tolaugh about and you're going to
be present to your family asmuch as you can.
(38:45):
Well, that might be a win therein itself.
So go easy on yourself, don'tbe afraid, and it's not going to
stay like.
This is what I would say.
There is good things ahead, andjust have faith in that.
Sheila Nonato (39:03):
Well, thank you, josh, and your wife, Lisa, for
being brave and speaking up andsharing your story so that
others can also do the same, andwe continue to pray for you and
your ministry, and I will haveall the information in the show
notes and I just look forward toseeing where you go next and
how you continue to help others.
Thank you so much for yourexample of being a strong
(39:26):
witness for Christ in yourfamily and through your vocation
in marriage.
Josh Canning (39:31):
Thank you so much, Sheila.
It's always great to talk withyou.
I appreciate it.
Sheila Nonato (39:34):
Thank you, god bless and say hi to Lisa.
Josh Canning (39:38):
I will Say hi to Joe Okay.
Sheila Nonato (39:39):
I will Take care.
Thanks so much.
Happy weekend you as well.
Okay, bye.
Thank you to Josh Canning forthis very important conversation
on navigating depression inmarriage.
Thank you for yourvulnerability and your honesty,
and thank you to you and Lisafor starting this ministry to
(40:01):
help couples see depressionthrough the light of faith.
In this podcast, we are lookingat holiness in everyday life and
in family life.
How do the struggles of copingwith depression lead one to
holiness?
As Josh has shared, being closeto Jesus through the cross of
(40:22):
mental illness has helped himand his wife, lisa to see their
struggles in a supernaturallight, that there is a greater
purpose in the suffering, as wehave seen in Jesus' redemption
after the cross, of hishumiliation, torture and death
and then his triumph in theresurrection.
(40:44):
I will have more info in theshow notes if you wanted to
reach out to Lisa and Josh andtheir ministry called "Persevere
Together.
" Onour next episode, I'm excited
to bring you my long-awaitedinterview with Mrs .
Tammy Peterson and Ms .
Queenie Yu.
Mrs Peterson was herself at thefoot of the cross five years
(41:05):
ago when she received her cancerdiagnosis of 11 months to live,
and Miss Queenie Yu, who was anacquaintance at that time, met
her at the cross in the hospitaland she introduced Mrs Tammy
Peterson to Our Lady.
We look forward to bringing youthis beautiful story of their
(41:26):
friendship.
Thank you and God bless.
Thank you for listening to the.
Veil and God Armour Podcast.
bless and be blessed together.
Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
Seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(00:27):
.
Co-Host (00:27):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (00:36):
Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast
On this Remembrance Day.
On the 11th hour of the 11thday of the 11th month, we
remember all soldiers, allveterans and their families, and
also those who made theultimate sacrifice.
We remember you, we pray foryou and your families and we
thank you for your service.
(00:56):
And from St.
John, Chapter 15, Verses 12 to13, this is my commandment that
you love one another as I haveloved you.
Greater love has no man thanthis, that a man lay down his
life for his friends and my sonhas something to say.
"Thank you, Daddy, and allsoldiers, for your service.
(01:22):
Thank you, and I thank myhusband for his service to God,
family and country.
He has been on threedeployments and is always ready
to teach the message of servantleadership which we Christians
know very well and which ourLord modelled for us.
In today's podcast, we haveJosh Canning to talk about the
cross of depression and mentalillness that he and his wife,
(01:45):
lisa have carried during theirmarriage and also how they're
using this experience to helpother couples navigate
depression and mental illness intheir marriage.
Josh has worked in chaplaincyat York University and the
Newman Centre at the Universityof Toronto.
Lisa is known as "hePossibility Mom, who has been an
(02:07):
interior designer at HGTVCanada and is now a Catholic
women's business coach.
They have 10 children and havecreated a new ministry for
couples navigating depressionand mental illness.
It's available on YouTubeLocals, a new website, an
upcoming website and an upcomingebook resource, and this
(02:30):
ministry is called PersevereTogether.
Let's listen to our conversationwith Josh Canning.
Thank you and God bless.
Welcome back, Josh Canning,founder, with your wife, Lisa,
of Persevere Together on Localsand your new YouTube channel to
help Catholic couples navigatemental illness in their marriage
.
Welcome back, Josh Canning,founder, with your wife, Lisa,
(02:51):
of Persevere Together on Localsand your new YouTube channel to
help Catholic couples navigatemental illness in their marriage
and family.
Josh Canning (02:55):
Before we start, can you please lead us in a
prayer?
Yeah, I'd be happy to.
In the name of the Father andof the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, Amen, Loving God, wethank you for this moment of
encounter, Lord and just, welift our eyes to you, knowing,
Lord, that you are alwayspresent with us, Lord, that you
always are knocking at the doorand inviting us into communion
with you.
(03:15):
So, Lord, we just give you ourthoughts in this moment.
Invite your presence and planfor this conversation, Lord.
Pray that people will beblessed by it.
Pray for Sheila's audience,Lord, and that anyone who this
might resonate with might justspeak a word of comfort and hope
to them.
We desire, Lord, that you beglorified in all things that we
(03:35):
do, and we pray this all inJesus' name.
Amen, In the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit
, Amen.
Sheila Nonato (03:42):
Thank you so much for that, and so we're picking
up where we left off.
Unfortunately we ran out oftime, but a very important
conversation on mental healthand I've had a couple of guests
already Rachel Wong, who had apodcast called the Feminine
Genius, and Father Rob Gallia ofAustralia, who had talked about
their struggles and how theywere able to overcome, talked
(04:06):
about their struggles and howthey were able to overcome, to
seek help and also to find Godin all of their struggles.
And I was listening to yourstory on Halo app, a powerful,
powerful story that I highlyencourage listeners to listen to
.
It was entitled the Cross.
Can you tell us?
In your telling of the storyyou were saying that you sort of
(04:27):
noticed that things were notquite as they were or should be
when you both had two childrenand the third on the way.
Can you tell us what were thesigns?
How did you know you needed toseek help?
Josh Canning (04:44):
Yeah, it started with me thinking that I just
needed a bit of time off fromwork because I was experiencing
a high degree of stress and itbegan to manifest in difficulty
sleeping and essentially racingthoughts.
It was really tough but Ithought that was just perhaps a
high degree of work stress andjust being overdue for a
(05:05):
vacation.
But what I would experience isI would be feeling negative and
fighting negative thoughts a lotduring the day and then when I
would go to sleep I would wakeup and immediately be worrying
and thinking about work andthinking about problems that I
couldn't solve and feeling verychallenged and eventually
feeling like I was essentiallytrapped and there wasn't a way
(05:25):
to win at life anymore.
A friend, when I was going outwith a couple of buddies
mentioned to me, noticed that Ididn't seem as happy as I was in
my previous job and made methink, hey, there's something
actually visible to people inthe way that I'm acting or the
way that I'm talking aboutthings.
And then it got to a point whereI think it was the next morning
(05:46):
or next evening I was changingmy daughter's diaper and I
became incredibly overwhelmedthrough the task.
She was just being a normal, youknow rambunctious kid, you know
fighting as best as she couldagainst having her diaper
changed.
And I got to a point where Iwas saying please just stop
moving, please stop moving.
And my voice took on such anintensity that my wife came and
(06:09):
kind of interjected and tookover the rest of the diaper
change and I went into thebedroom and closed my door and
sat on my bed and just brokedown and wept and I just
remember feeling like I can'teven change it, I can't even
change a diaper, like I can't doanything right in my life, you
know.
And that was when I realizedthat it wasn't just normal work
stress.
(06:29):
I was really feeling trulydefeated in life and there was
not a normal sort of release orcadence of, you know, joy and
sadness in life.
It was just I was kind of beingovercome by sadness and it was
at that point that I decided togo and speak to a counselor.
Sheila Nonato (06:50):
And so you were saying you were not doing what
you used to do normally.
That you felt, was it paralyzed?
What did you feel?
How do we notice signs in ourspouse that there's maybe
something not quite right andthey need our help or they need
somebody else's help?
Josh Canning (07:08):
Yeah, it can be elusive.
And I'll just say as, with acaveat, I've learned that
there's a thing called smilingdepression, where people seem to
act normal and it's notapparent what's happening with
them.
They're able to put on a good,perhaps a good show, a good face
, and so it's really can be veryhard to detect in some cases.
In my case, I think what waswould have been visible is that
(07:31):
I slowly became less joyful.
I was not in terms of like mynormal personality.
I wasn't making quips or jokesor being playful quips or jokes
or being playful, I was moresort of consumed with problems.
(07:51):
I would have just seemed morepreoccupied and then eventually
much lower energy, eventually,when this is, one of the
symptoms of depression was evenjust having trouble
concentrating or focusing onthings.
So it was both just a lack ofthe normal enjoyment in life and
there's a word for that.
I forget what the word is.
I have it in this book overhere "The Catholic Guide to
Depression.
But essentially you lose thethings that normally bring you
(08:13):
joy, no longer bring you joy.
But then there are othersymptoms.
Can be, you know, the racingthoughts, the difficulty
sleeping, the weight changes,the persistent sadness and me
eventually, even a lack of focus.
So, if you can imagine, sort ofreading or prayer becomes
difficult because it's just hardto um have the same mental
focus they used to have.
(08:33):
So those are some of the thingsmy wife also would notice in me
anxiety, where I would start tokind of, you know, rub my head
or scratch my head, or I mightput my hands down on the on the
table in front of me and kind ofmove them apart and back
together, that type of thing.
So a little bit fidgety.
But as I said, you know peoplecan manifest some of these
symptoms or none of them, andthat's one of the challenging
(08:54):
things about mental illness.
Sheila Nonato (08:57):
And so I yeah.
So I'm just wondering for thosecouples who might be struggling
with this and, like you weresaying, a smiling sort of
depression how do you, how wouldwe pick up on the signs?
Is there in that book that youhave, you have, is there some
sort of guide, a checklist thatwe could sort of confer or refer
(09:19):
to?
Josh Canning (09:20):
Yeah, there is, there is.
So, for example, once you goout and see a psychiatrist,
they'll give you a diagnosis,basically, and it's essentially
a survey, and they're asking youof these different symptoms.
How often do you experiencethem from?
Like you know, sometimes neverto most of the time or all of
the time, and they range from anumber of different things.
(09:42):
The most severe might be likethinking, like thoughts of death
or have you ever had thoughtsof ending your life, and
essentially you go through them.
And if you have I believethere's in the one that we do in
Canada, I believe it's ninesymptoms, and if you have five
or more for a period of twoweeks or longer, then that may
be considered a depression.
(10:04):
If you again there's Againthere's normal kind of
institutes of life.
So if you have some bad daysone week and less the next week
and that type of thing, then itmight be simple.
You know different lifechallenges and things that we
might learn to cope with better.
But it's when it kind of takeson this sort of persistence over
a period of time that we mightsay it's actually settling into
a condition which we may calldepression, but it does require
(10:25):
the help of a.
So I would say the diagnosisyou could do on your own or with
your spouse, but then it wouldneed you would need to seek the
help of a healthcareprofessional to then sort of
formalize that and figure outwhat's a plan to work with them.
But it can be very helpfulbecause sometimes it's hard to
know in ourselves.
Like I said, I used to think itwas just work, stress or I just
needed a vacation.
(10:46):
But it can help to havesomething objective to say hmm,
this is a bit more serious, Ishould take it to the next level
.
Sheila Nonato (10:54):
So you, when I guess, at around this time that
you were experiencing this, youboth have, you know, public sort
of personas.
Your wife was on TV in interiordesign and you were working in
campus ministry and then youdecided when did you decide to
write the blog to share yourexperience?
Josh Canning (11:13):
Yeah, it took a while.
So it started with me takingtime off work, I think, as we
spoke about in the last one inthe last discussion, and when I
came back from work, so for thestudents that I was close with
the people that I was serving, Ididn't tell them why I was gone
and people really didn't.
I mean, people are very curious.
There was only one I ended upkind of speaking to in specifics
, but it was hard for me tospeak about, even with my boss
(11:35):
and colleagues at the time, as Imentioned, even with my close
friends or even my spouse.
So it was about the anniversaryof the time that I took time
off that I published a blog post, and at the time it was called
"my Dark Secret, because eventhen, still, it felt like
something really vulnerable.
It wasn't something that I wasnecessarily comfortable with,
(11:58):
but I could think back to thattime of how isolating it felt
and how hearing stories that Icould relate to was so helpful,
and so that motivated me towrite a blog post basically
describing it, describing thefeeling, the thoughts, what it
felt like, the shame, andpublishing it.
And I remember I wrote itfairly quickly and I hesitated a
(12:22):
long time before I hit thepublish button.
I wrote it fairly quickly and Ihesitated a long time before I
hit the publish button and then,after I did, I felt very
uncomfortable or vulnerable fora little while because it was
out there and I don't know Still.
I mean, I know we do a lot tosort of reduce the sort of
stigma of mental illness, but Istill thought like how is this
going to impact the way peoplethink about me, you know,
(12:45):
perhaps my future employmentpossibilities, all these things.
But I felt like it's kind of,you know, sunlight might be the
best place to put this.
So, yeah, so that was, that was.
That was a big, I guess, stepin my process of acceptance of,
I guess, who I am and and thisreality of my life.
And it definitely gets easiertalking about it after that once
it's kind of out in the open.
Sheila Nonato (13:04):
It definitely gets a lot easier so you
mentioned about the stigma,about mental illness.
So bell you, you and lisa werepart of the campaign.
It's a bell, let's talkcampaign.
Well, let's talk yes yeah, andand why did you join?
Josh Canning (13:19):
yeah, yeah, they reached out to us.
Um, they they tend to hit ondifferent um focuses with
regards to, um, the reality ofmental illness.
And this one year they reachedout to us.
They tend to hit on differentfocuses with regards to the
reality of mental illness.
And this one year they reachedout to us because they wanted,
just like, stories of regularpeople.
You know they had had storiesof Olympians and actors and
comedians and whatnot.
And they said, well, we justwant to hear from you know
regular, you know regular people, moms and dads, and you know
(13:43):
truck drivers and you knowwhatnot.
And so they reached out to usand invited us and so we were
part of a campaign that rancommercials in Canada, was even
run during the Super Bowl, whichwas pretty cool, although our
commercials for the Super Bowlaren't as good in Canada.
But that's neither here northere.
But essentially, yeah, it was away of going even more public
and simply just being wellwilling be featured that
(14:06):
particular year as well.
They were putting a bit ofemphasis on the supporting
spouse, just recognizing thatthose who care for people
struggling with depression orother mental illnesses also
carry a load, and we want tocelebrate them and support them
as well.
Sheila Nonato (14:21):
So part of your ministry with Persevere Together
, which is available on locals,and you also created a new
YouTube Channel is to help umspouses to be able to help their
spouse who is dealing with this?
How, how do?
How do spouses who aresupporting in a supportive
capacity?
How do we, how do we help?
Josh Canning (14:39):
Yeah.
So this is one thing we noticedwith, um, you know with.
So, as I mentioned my blog,Lisa's blog, Lisa's youtube
channel, we noticed a hugeresponse.
You know with.
So, as I mentioned my blog,lisa's blog, Lisa's YouTube
channel, we noticed a hugeresponse, uh, of people.
Basically, those were the most.
It's funny that the channelwasn't really about depression
and marriage, but those videos,uh, just sort of took off.
They went viral and what welearned through the comments is
(14:59):
a lot of the people searchingfor those videos weren't
actually the person strugglingwith depression.
It was the spouse who's tryingto figure out what's going on,
and we found that for themhearing from the person in my
shoes so the person who can nowtalk about mental illness and
what it felt like, and theperson who was in the supporting
(15:20):
role, who didn't know what todo at first and has learned over
time how to be a supportingspouse, and the communication
that needs to take place betweenboth we found that they needed
to hear both of those sides ofthe story and that that brought
a lot of hope and an ability tore-engage their spouse, who's
suffering, in a new way, with anew hopefulness.
(15:42):
So I guess I would say with"Persevere Together.
We just recognize that is thatit's the person who's
experienced mental illness mightnot even at times have the what
do we say?
The motivation to search foranswers.
They may everyone's different,but the spouse who is feeling
(16:04):
isolated by the illness thatthey don't have is probably also
searching for answers and wewant to try and find a way to
speak to that person.
The reality is also like in ourcommunities a lot of the
resources that are built up areto support the person who is
experiencing mental illness,more so than the person who's
supporting.
So we just really felt thatthat was perhaps a gap we were
(16:28):
being called to step into and wewant to lend our experiences
that we want to support bothbecause again a married couple,
the two become one flesh.
But we recognize just thatthere is a real need to speak to
the supporting spouse.
Sheila Nonato (16:41):
And when you're saying that the caregiver in
this instance also needs support, how crucial was that for your
wife to also be able to havesomebody to, I guess, have to
get some ideas on how to helpyou.
How crucial was that, and howcrucial is that for spouses who
are supporting?
Josh Canning (17:01):
It is very crucial .
The reality is is it can be so.
Okay, let's just even step backfor a step.
Communication in marriage canbe challenging period, right?
You know, like I think of G.
K.
's yesterday and said you know,if you're looking for somebody
you're compatible with, don'tlook for someone of the opposite
sex.
Men and women are inherentlyincompatible.
Right, it's already challenging.
You throw in a challenge likemental illness into the equation
(17:22):
.
There's different fault linesthat you might not be aware of,
you might not know.
Like just thinking of aspecific situation, like when I
had to go away from thatsituation changing the diaper of
my daughter.
Lisa didn't know what was goingon and I wasn't able to
articulate what was going on.
(17:43):
All she could see is somebodyis really overwhelmed and I
don't know why.
So for the supporting spouse, Iwould say that I think Lisa
would say that both parties needto do a bit of a dive into
understanding what is happening,what is mental illness and how
is it manifesting?
Because there's times when Ican articulate what I'm
(18:05):
experiencing, what I'm goingthrough, and maybe I'm not in
the best season and I'm having abad day or week through, and
maybe I'm not in the best seasonand I'm having a bad day or
week or whatever.
And there are other times where, if Lisa understands how
depression works and how itmanifests in me, she can say hey
, I don't think you're quiteyourself right now.
I don't know if you realize,I've noticed some things.
Have you noticed this?
(18:25):
And so, in a sense, both of youare becoming experts in the
situation and both of you arelearning to communicate in a way
about it, in a way that doesn'tbring conflict.
If there's, if there's ignoranceon either side, it can be more
challenging.
And so, as an example, when Iwithdrew during that period, as
I mentioned, I took time offwork, I sought counseling, I
(18:48):
decided to try to startexercising again and start to do
what I could to give myself thebest possible mental outlook.
Part of that meant not sayingyes to all of the social
invitations we might experience,and at first that was really
hard for Lisa, because she's avery social person and has a
certain vision of how ourmarriage should go.
(19:10):
I think probably every marriedcouple can relate to this, and
in the very beginning shestruggled as well, in the same
way that I struggled to talkabout it, and maybe in part
because I was in public about it.
She struggled to attend thingswithout me, without explaining
why, why, and also perhapsfeeling at the time the same
sort of you know, slight levelof embarrassment or shame of I
(19:33):
don't know how to talk about.
My husband has depression and Idon't know if my family knows
how to process that.
You know, um, but over time, aswe both get more comfortable
with understanding what it isand we both become less, um,
secretive about it than we canboth communicate with each other
and others in a much morehealthy way.
(19:55):
So I'm not sure if I hit thecore of your question there,
Sheila, because there's many,many things we could say about
it in terms of, like, how Lisaperhaps gets her own support
system.
That's another, another pieceof it that we think is really
important and that's part of whyPersevere Together is a project
that we believe is worthpursuing.
Lisa found a private Facebookgroup for the supporting spouse,
(20:19):
so a lot of in this case it wasa lot of wives whose husbands
had different mental illness andwas able to hear and to speak
and to put out specificquestions or thoughts or words
of encouragement at differenttimes, and when she mentioned
that in one of her YouTubevideos, a lot of people started
asking like how do I join agroup like that?
I need that group because theonly thing that I've seen that I
(20:43):
can resonate with is this video, but I need more.
That's really part of where theidea of Perseververe together
is planted in our minds.
Sheila Nonato (20:53):
And I guess the phrase persevere together.
I'm also thinking about thefamily.
I know there's still the stigmaof mental illness.
Do we introduce this to ourchildren, or how do we introduce
it?
What language?
How do we explain this to them?
Josh Canning (21:10):
Yeah, that's a great question and I would say
it's very age dependent.
So I have a 15 year old and Itold him in specific words only
recently.
I said you know,J john, I don'tknow if you know this, but you
know I struggle with depressionand you know I just mentioned a
specific time where it waschallenging.
(21:31):
I didn't go into great depth,but I just says, like you know,
I thought you should know that Istruggled with depression and
he processed it and he was like,well, that must've been really
hard.
And I was like, yeah, yeah,it's hard.
You know, we learned to walkwith these things, but it was
hard and it is hard.
My younger kids I have notmentioned the word to them.
I don't think they wouldnecessarily know what it means
(21:53):
and I don't want them to worry.
So if it is a challenge, Ithink you can be honest with
them without necessarilyworrying them, and so the way
that I would do that is I mightsimply say you know, Daddy needs
a bit of a quiet time for a bit.
For example, I went off to asmall cabin a little while ago
(22:13):
and when they were like, why isDaddy going off to the cabin by
himself?
I just said one thing that wastrue.
One I'm getting over being sick.
Two, Daddy's just been havingheadaches lately and not
sleeping that well, and Daddycould just use a break.
So you're not lying to me.
You're telling them part of theperhaps symptoms, of what you
need relief from, but you don'tneed to necessarily tell them a
(22:39):
word which can have all kinds ofmeanings which they might not
fully understand.
So that's my personalphilosophy about it is, you
don't want the kids to worry,but you also don't want to, you
know, create any kind of likeyou know, false impression.
You just tell them what they'reable to accept, which when
(22:59):
they're really young, doesn'tneed to be a lot, and when
they're older, you can unpack itwith them authentically when
you know they're ready.
Sheila Nonato (23:09):
Yes, that's good advice.
Yeah, absolutely Ageappropriate.
And yeah, I guess kids justwant to feel secure and you,
being honest and open with youroldest, I think that probably
helped kind of anchor hissecurity because he knows that
both of you are in this together.
As you know, your YouTubechannel name is "Persevere
(23:32):
Together, you're, you're in this, in this for the long haul, so,
and you are rooted in Christ.
And I am curious also, yourhallow in hallow, the hallow app
you have.
Your talk was titled the cross.
How did you get through thecross of mental illness and how
did this help you grow inholiness together?
Josh Canning (23:59):
Well, there was a period of needing to learn
acceptance and this is one ofthe things I think we mentioned
in the meditation is that wewould like to choose our crosses
.
We would like to choose verylittle crosses, right?
I don't know if other peoplestruggle with this, I would
imagine so, but I struggle withwanting to plan my life to go a
(24:21):
certain way, and the reality isit involves comfort.
It's hard for me to say I wouldembrace any specific sickness
or discomfort or trial.
I am in my fallenness.
I would choose the smallestpossible cross, but at the time
(24:42):
that I was experiencing myillness, I could get to the
place where I didn't understandit.
But I understood enough throughthe understanding that God asks
us to pick up our cross dailyand follow him.
Pick up our cross daily andfollow him.
And it just occurred to me thatthe particular cross God was
(25:03):
asking me to carry was thisreality of depression.
This reality of depression and,with that being the case, if
it's like, if I can understandthat I don't fully understand
this, but I understand that it'sGod's will then I can do this
and, I think, anybody who mightbe in a similar boat.
Why is X happening to me.
Why is Y happening to me?
Well, it's happening, and God'sasking us to pick it up and to
(25:28):
follow him.
And if God's asking us to dothis, then it's ultimately for
our good and we will not be leftalone to do it.
God doesn't ask us to pick upthe cross and make our own way.
It's we're following him, andso we can be at peace about that
to some extent.
That doesn't mean the cross isever easy, right.
I mean, jesus was accompaniedby our Blessed Mother on the
(25:52):
root of his passion.
No better company.
But that doesn't mean it wasever easy, of course.
But there's intimacy there,there's a purpose to it all, and
we can believe that we willunderstand it more fully in the
next life.
So that's my thought on it.
I mean, the other piece of itis, I believe now, having just
sort of been very open about itis that our crosses can also be
(26:15):
sources of light for others, andso we can take comfort in that
as well.
Sheila Nonato (26:23):
And the book you mentioned earlier.
What was it again, and can youtell us what can we expect in
reading this resource?
Josh Canning (26:31):
Yeah.
So the book.
I'll hold it up right here.
It's called "he Catholic Guideto Depression.
It's by Dr.
Aaron Kheriaty I believe he wasat Stanford University, and
what's great about that is hebrings the insights that come
from modern psychiatry blendedwith our Catholic faith and
understanding of the humanexistence, our anthropology.
(26:53):
And those things together arewhat I think can make mental
illness truly make sense.
If you don't understand thecross and the virtue that comes
with redemptive suffering, thenI think there's always going to
be something missing there.
You know, the Greek Stoicsmight find some ability to cope
with it, but when you reallyunderstand what Christ has
(27:14):
revealed about God's lovethrough the cross, then
suffering takes on a wholedifferent shape.
But he brings in an awarenessof what we know through modern
science, with also stories ofsaints who struggle with mental
illness, what we can do in termsof the sacraments and prayer,
simply like what we can reallyknow when we bring our faith
(27:35):
into this picture.
So it's a very useful resourcein that regard.
I read it, pick it up and put itdown frequently.
But I'll also mention my wifeand I are working on a resource,
an ebook that's meant forcouples who are in a situation,
finding themselves in asituation like we were.
So it's a bit more of a bookabout the Catholic couple who's
experiencing depression and whatare their next steps and how
(27:58):
can they see a light at the endof the tunnel with that
experience.
So yeah, I mentioned this one alot, but I also think there's
perhaps more resources whichcould be provided and that's why
we're working on an e-book.
I hope you don't mind if I alsomention we're fundraising for a
video series that a couple couldwatch at home and spur
discussion.
As I mentioned, when I wasexperiencing depression it was
(28:20):
very hard to focus, so even abook might be a bit of a
challenge when you're in themidst of it.
But perhaps a 10-minute bookepisode of a video series maybe
that'll just be perfect to getthe discussion going.
So that's another sort of thingthat's in the works.
With "Persevere Together, we'refundraising for that now.
Sheila Nonato (28:37):
Where can the viewers and listeners find you?
How do they help out with this?
Josh Canning (28:43):
Yeah, so we do have a web domain.
This is still early, but wedon't have our page up yet.
But perseveretogetherorg is ourweb domain.
Perseveretogetherorg.
People can come and learn moreabout us there.
You can also find us on YouTubeat youtubecom slash, at
perseveretogether or www.
perseveretogether.
locals.
com.
(29:05):
Those would be the three places.
Sheila Nonato (29:07):
Okay, awesome, and I'm going to go to social
media because I I watch Lisa'sinstagram and so much activity
in your household amazing andI'm very.
It's almost like homesteading.
I know you guys moved so I feellike, wow, you have organic
meat and what is this beef suet?
I, I don't know what that is.
Can you tell us, like how andhow does that help you with, you
(29:29):
know, your overall health?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I have adream to actually do farming at
some point.
We'll see whether that ever?
Josh Canning (29:32):
Can you tell us, and how does that help you with
your overall health?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have adream to actually do farming at
some point.
We'll see whether that evercomes to pass, but no, we live
in an area that's a bit rural.
It's a city, but it's a littlebit more rural.
There's a lot of farms around,and so mental health is
connected to our physical health, obviously, and I'm reading a
lot about nutrition and ourmetabolic health and how that
(29:53):
impacts the symptoms ofdifferent mental illnesses.
So what you would have seen onInstagram is we're trying to
cook a lot with beef tallow.
So essentially, this beef suetis beef fat that you render down
and then basically use it likeyou would use butter or any kind
of cooking oil, because that'sa lot more healthy for us and
good for the gut.
(30:14):
You probably also would haveseen me making bone broth.
This is a very kind of collagenrich drink made from the
basically 24 hours of stewingthe bones of beef, and then we
freeze a lot of it and that'svery, very good, for I find it's
good for sleep.
Collagen is supposed to be goodfor sleep, but these kinds of
(30:36):
habits, as well as preparingmore of our own food rather than
eating processed or fast foodis also, I think, part of the
equation of general physicalhealth which impacts our mental
health.
Sheila Nonato (30:49):
And when you were talking about making your own
food and helping that, how thathelps our physical health.
Josh Canning (30:59):
That obviously will boost our mental health as
well, correct, yeah, absolutely,and it's a good communal
activity, which is good for us,right?
We're social beings and itfeels good.
It's good for our kids to betaking on and learning new kind
of tasks.
I love that.
Another thing that Lisa doesright now is she's joined the
whole sourdough revolution.
(31:19):
She makes bread for usregularly.
The house smells amazing.
Kids are learning to do it aswell, and no, I think that's all
good for us and it's one ofthose things we've perhaps
gotten away from too much in themodern world.
It's good for us to work withour hands, prepare our food and
be connected to that wholeprocess.
Sheila Nonato (31:39):
That's amazing.
Yeah, we tried sourdough and Ifeel like sourdough has so much
it made me realize the gospel,you know, when Jesus says he is
the bread of life.
Like that's kind of thesourdough you have to constantly
be feeding it and it's kind oflike our faith life If we don't
feed it, nourish it, it kind ofdies.
So but yeah, yeah it's amazinghow sourdough can help us
(32:03):
understand the Bible a littlebit.
But are there other ways?
You know you're out in nature?
That also helps with mentalillness and keeping us healthy.
Is that correct as well?
Josh Canning (32:14):
100%, yeah, I mean .
So we lived in Florida for awhile and it's one of the things
that drew us down there was thesunlight.
It's really good for us to getsunshine on our skin, on our
eyes.
It helps regulate our sleep, sothat's all very important.
We have a little brewery nearbyhere and we will go there
because it has so much outdoorspace.
(32:35):
It's basically like a farm witha brewery and we go out there
and myself and some of the kidswe go out there and flip-flops
immediately kick them off andget our feet in the grass.
And that's another.
Apparently that's interestingbut like another health practice
called some people call itgrounding or earthing connecting
you with the magnetism of theearth.
It sounds kind of new age, butactually there are studies which
(32:56):
talk about it and how it'simportant for our body to be
connected with earth.
It's actually kind of unnaturalthat we're always in rubber
shoes.
It's better for us to kind ofbe in the soil, be in the dirt,
be in the grass.
We're not going to have toomuch opportunity for that.
Pretty soon here in Canada,it's going to be wintertime and
we're going to be missing that.
So we try to experience that aswell and yeah, I do believe
(33:17):
that's good for your health andyour mental health.
Sheila Nonato (33:20):
Yeah, and I guess connecting with nature I mean
not like a woo-woo new age thing, but like God's creation seeing
it.
You know, I know now kids andadults, you know we're
unfortunately addicted to ourscreens and being out there you
realize, wow, I don't need tolook at somebody else's life, I
(33:40):
can focus on mine and work onmine and connect with my family.
Yeah, I think what I was seeinga couple.
I think they were together andthey were eating, but they were
looking at their phones.
So it was a little bit of amissed opportunity, I guess, to
connect.
Maybe they were texting eachother, who knows?
Josh Canning (33:56):
It's always tragic , right, because we are
relational beings and we shouldalways be open to moments of
encounter.
And I think that's the worstchallenge.
I guess these things can beused for good, but if they
become an anchor or adistraction, then in a way they
artificially remove us from asituation.
(34:18):
And what a beautiful moment,when you're having a meal, to
have an encounter with people.
We can think of that happeningso many times in the Bible,
where this signifies communionof people, you know, exchanging
ideas and relationship andrelationship being established.
In fact, we think even how itwas scandalous that Christ ate
(34:38):
with tax collectors because, oh,what are you establishing this
sort of equality or connectionwith these people?
Don't you realize that'sscandalous?
So they could recognize, forpositive and for negative, that
the meal was really sacred andimportant.
And so I would say, yeah, Inever, I mean personally.
I would say my recommendationto anybody would be, as a rule,
like never, or very sparingly,use your phone when you're at a
(35:02):
meal with somebody.
Put it away, you know, and andbe open, and and be open to the
tastes, you know, and the smells, and the people before you and
the voices, and you'll be betteroff.
We have to yeah, we're notdisembodied beings.
We have to be living incarnateand in communion with each other
.
Sheila Nonato (35:21):
And lastly, so I was.
Maybe I'm too much into socialmedia but anyway.
I saw Lisa's post on InstagramI think it was last week.
She was posting about what doyou or maybe it was you what do
you guys do for Sunday?
How do you celebrate the Lord'sday and do?
You guys have specificactivities for that specific day
?
Josh Canning (35:40):
Yeah, we have.
We have a range of specificactivities, so that would be one
day that if we are usingscreens.
So let me, let's start.
The most important, mostimportant obviously, is Holy
mass.
That's like the anchor of ourSundays.
That's the thing which we buildeverything else around Beyond
that, those are the days wherewe actually do a little bit more
food prep.
Kids are home for school, so Ithink I might have been making,
(36:01):
or we're finishing, bone broth.
On that day, we'll do cheeseboards and we'll do bread.
That'll be a day where we'revery open to having other
families over and having a glassof wine and cheese together.
We also love to do if we aregoing to use screens that's when
we do family movies.
So we often watch John Waynemovies or something like that,
which has an appeal perhaps toall ages.
(36:24):
Maybe it requires someexplaining with differences of
the 50's and today, but we tryto do those things rather than
people get locked up in theirown more individual activities.
We try to think what can we dotogether as a family and build
memories, board games, puzzling,all these things we think is
really important, and then if weare taking a quiet moment
sometimes it's even just readingin each other's presence can be
(36:45):
a positive thing.
So those are some thoughts andsuggestions for for families.
Oh, I'd be remiss to notsuggest a Rosary walk.
We love doing those as well,connecting nature and prayer.
But yeah, those are some of thesuggestions I would make.
That's what we do.
Sheila Nonato (37:00):
Awesome.
And did you have any words ofencouragement for a couple who's
listening or watching, or aspouse who may think maybe we
need to go and explore thissituation, that we might need
some help?
Can you offer them some wordsof perhaps encouragement or
advice?
Josh Canning (37:20):
Yeah, I would say, first and foremost, don't be
afraid to ask the question.
Is something wrong here?
Am I experiencing somethinglike a depression or clinical
anxiety or something like that?
Don't be afraid to ask thequestion and don't be afraid to
take this first small step, thatyou need to get an answer to
that, so that might be talkingabout it with your wife or a
(37:40):
friend or someone you know whomaybe has experienced something
similar.
For me, the next step afterthat was to contact Catholic
Family Services and get acounselor and to begin to talk
about what I was experiencing,and essentially it's one step at
a time.
If you need to go further thanthat, if you need to go see a
psychiatrist, that's down theline.
Just take the first next step.
(38:01):
Maybe it's contacting yourfamily doctor, but do something
so that you know you're nottrapped, you are exerting your
own individual creativity inthat situation and you are
taking the next right step.
If you find yourself in a reallyrough patch like that, like a
clinical depression, what I tellpeople who are experiencing it
is you have to move thegoalposts a little bit in a
(38:23):
positive way.
So maybe before you were ableto achieve, you know, this level
of productivity and this levelof things in a day.
You know this level ofproductivity and this level of
things in a day.
Well, what if you only focusedon achieving three things in a
day?
What if it's?
You're going to move your bodyand get exercise, you're going
to try to find something tolaugh about and you're going to
be present to your family asmuch as you can.
(38:45):
Well, that might be a win therein itself.
So go easy on yourself, don'tbe afraid, and it's not going to
stay like.
This is what I would say.
There is good things ahead, andjust have faith in that.
Sheila Nonato (39:03):
Well, thank you, josh, and your wife, Lisa, for
being brave and speaking up andsharing your story so that
others can also do the same, andwe continue to pray for you and
your ministry, and I will haveall the information in the show
notes and I just look forward toseeing where you go next and
how you continue to help others.
Thank you so much for yourexample of being a strong
(39:26):
witness for Christ in yourfamily and through your vocation
in marriage.
Josh Canning (39:31):
Thank you so much, Sheila.
It's always great to talk withyou.
I appreciate it.
Sheila Nonato (39:34):
Thank you, god bless and say hi to Lisa.
Josh Canning (39:38):
I will Say hi to Joe Okay.
Sheila Nonato (39:39):
I will Take care.
Thanks so much.
Happy weekend you as well.
Okay, bye.
Thank you to Josh Canning forthis very important conversation
on navigating depression inmarriage.
Thank you for yourvulnerability and your honesty,
and thank you to you and Lisafor starting this ministry to
(40:01):
help couples see depressionthrough the light of faith.
In this podcast, we are lookingat holiness in everyday life and
in family life.
How do the struggles of copingwith depression lead one to
holiness?
As Josh has shared, being closeto Jesus through the cross of
(40:22):
mental illness has helped himand his wife, lisa to see their
struggles in a supernaturallight, that there is a greater
purpose in the suffering, as wehave seen in Jesus' redemption
after the cross, of hishumiliation, torture and death
and then his triumph in theresurrection.
(40:44):
I will have more info in theshow notes if you wanted to
reach out to Lisa and Josh andtheir ministry called "Persevere
Together.
" Onour next episode, I'm excited
to bring you my long-awaitedinterview with Mrs .
Tammy Peterson and Ms .
Queenie Yu.
Mrs Peterson was herself at thefoot of the cross five years
(41:05):
ago when she received her cancerdiagnosis of 11 months to live,
and Miss Queenie Yu, who was anacquaintance at that time, met
her at the cross in the hospitaland she introduced Mrs Tammy
Peterson to Our Lady.
We look forward to bringing youthis beautiful story of their
(41:26):
friendship.
Thank you and God bless.
Thank you for listening to the.
Veil and God Armour Podcast.
bless and be blessed together.
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