Catholic sex and marriage coach, and moral theologian, Dr. Sarah Bartel shares her insights on marital intimacy from a Catholic perspective, explaining how sex is a physical renewal of our marriage vows and addressing common misconceptions that prevent couples from experiencing true intimacy.
• The Catholic understanding of sex as "body language" that renews our marriage vows
• Why there's no moral obligation for wives to always say "Yes" to sex
• Distinction between spontaneous and responsive desire in men and women
• How socialization affects our comfort with sexual desire
• Common barriers to fulfillment including past trauma, pain, and negative messaging
• Using Scripture, especially Song of Songs, to develop a healthier view of sexuality within marriage
• Understanding Catholic teaching on responsible parenthood and Natural Family Planning
• The importance of open communication
• Creating emotional connection as the foundation for physical and emotional intimacy
Dr. Bartel's "My Delight" program offers Catholic women a safe community to ask questions anonymously and develop practical skills for greater intimacy. Learn more at canafeast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sheila Nonato (00:00):
The Marriage at Cana, according to the Gospel of
St John.
On the third day there was amarriage at Cana, in Galilee,
and the Mother of Jesus wasthere.
Jesus also was invited to themarriage with his disciples.
When the wine failed, theMother of Jesus said to Him,
"have no wine.
And Jesus said to her O woman,what have you to do with me?
(00:24):
My hour has not yet come.
His mother said to the servantsDo whatever he tells you To
certain Christ.
This week we will be looking atthe important topic of marital
(00:44):
intimacy.
And what does Jesus say?
What does the Bible say?
What does the Catholic Churchsay about the sanctity of sex
within marriage?
Let's have a listen to thisweek's episode with Dr Sarah
Bartel.
Intro (01:02):
Hello and Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(01:24):
.
Co-host (01:25):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (01:32):
Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast, Sisters
in Christ.
My family and I have justrecently returned from
Steubenville, Ohio, at a blessedevent: the Catholic Creators
Conference, and I can't wait toshare more with you in the next
coming episodes.
Today, we're going to look at avery important aspect of the
(01:54):
married life as part of ourexploration of holiness in
everyday life.
As we look at the divorce ratein the United States and Canada,
they have been on the declinefor younger couples in recent
years.
Yet longer marriages have seendivorce rates increase.
According to Divorce.
com, among the top reasons fordivorce have been: lack of
(02:16):
affection and lack of emotionaland or physical intimacy.
I spoke with Dr Sarah Bartel, aCatholic sex and marriage coach
for Catholic brides.
Please join me in this veryimportant conversation.
Thank you and God bless.
The Interview (02:34):
Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
Hello, Sisters in Christ.
Last week we touched upon hell.
More about that later.
Now(Link to the video " we'regoing to be talking about
experiencing heaven in marriageand since this is a mature topic
, I would advise those listeningto please wear your earbuds or
headphones if you are aroundyour kids.
I'm honored to welcome Dr SarahBartel.
(02:55):
Dr.
Sarah Bartel is a moraltheologian, and a Catholic sex
and marriage coach.
She is the host of the "yDelight podcast for Catholic
women.
She is the host of the myDelight podcast for Catholic
women.
Together with her husband,nathan, she has served thousands
of Catholic couples throughtheir canafeastcom online
ministry, which includes theirAbundant Marriage course and a
little way of marriage workshop.
Her newest course, my Delight,is a groundbreaking program
(03:24):
designed to undo knots of shame,ignorance and isolation to help
engaged and married women learnhow to develop holy, healthy
intimacy with their husbands.
She's a mom of five based nearSeattle Washington, where she
loves hiking, reading JaneAusten, feeding her kids salmon
and heading off on adventures.
Sarah earned a BA in Humanitiesand Catholic Culture and an MA
in Religious Studies fromGonzaga University, and she
(03:47):
completed her PhD in MoralTheology from the Catholic
University of America.
Dr Bartel draws uponmagisterial documents and the
Catholic moral tradition tobring clear, faithful and
practical answers about what isand isn't allowed in the bedroom
and other important issues andmarital intimacy.
May we start off with a prayer,Dr.
(04:07):
Bartel.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (04:09):
In the name of the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Lord, we glorify you and praiseyou and thank you.
Thank you for creating us inlove and for love.
Thank you for your beautifulplan for man, woman, marriage
and sexuality, for yourbeautiful plan for man, woman,
marriage and sexuality, for yourbeautiful plan for family life.
(04:31):
And we just pray that you'llbless our conversation, that
your Holy Spirit will workthrough our words and thoughts
to draw out what will be mosthelpful, most inspirational,
(04:51):
most educational and insightfuland healing for all the
beautiful women listening.
That you will shine your light,Lord, on what needs to be most
held out to help us allunderstand better how to
celebrate our sacramentalmarriages in the marital embrace
in a way that really glorifiesyou and that honors your design
for women as well as men, tothrive in this area.
And, Lord, we pray for allthose who've experienced
(05:12):
frustration, hurt, pain, for allthose who feel like they're
broken, that you will give themcomfort and guidance and,
especially, just reassurancethat they're not alone and that
there are answers and there'shelp for all these struggles in
this inner sanctuary of marriageand the marriage bed and the
(05:33):
marital embrace.
And we just love you, Lord, andglorify you, and we just pray
that every Catholic marriagewill be a true, authentic
reflection of the love of theTrinity, that there will be open
hearts and open sharing, and wejust pray for especially the
much needed gift of emotionalintelligence and emotional
(05:57):
connection in marriage as thefoundation for all of this.
Mother Mary, please pray for allthe women involved in this
podcast, all those listening,for Sheila and for our
conversation to be a little bitof an echo of your encounter
with Elizabeth at the visitationthat, as you, two beautiful
women, rejoiced in praise andmagnifying the Lord for the
(06:21):
great things that he has donefor you in your fertility, in
your feminine genius, that wewomen also will be able to have
an encounter and a connectionthat magnifies the Lord as we
reflect on the great and goodthings he has done in making us
women and using us to be bearersof God's love and of his plan
(06:45):
for life into the world.
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, prayfor us sinners now and at the
hour of our death.
Amen, in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, Amen.
Sheila Nonato (07:06):
Thank you so much for that beautiful prayer.
So you started the podcast, Ibelieve it's in January, Is that
correct?
How is it going?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (07:16):
Well, it's been a lot of fun.
Yes, I have been interested inthis new medium for me.
I've been teaching my class "yDelight for a couple of years
online, so that's new for me tohave this, this format of
hosting a podcast, to haveconversations with me.
(07:38):
Then I ran out of thoseepisodes and did a solo episode
for the first time last week andit went a lot better than I
thought it would.
But I've been getting wonderfulfeedback from both my own
students and those on our emailswho aren't part of my program,
saying you know that this orthat topic that I've touched on
has been helpful for them.
(08:00):
And, yeah, I'm praying for God'sguidance to help me choose
future topics.
There's some that I know I needto address, sheila, and I just
need to really, you know, askGod's gift of courage, because I
want to be well prepared totalk about, for example, the
marital debt, this idea ofmarital debt.
I want to have my ducks in arow and research ready too,
(08:22):
because there are a lot ofmisunderstandings out there
around this topic.
And, yeah, I want to be able toprovide something free online
where people can turn to and getsome clear guidance that is
accurate and true for that, butyeah, it's been fun, thank you.
Sheila Nonato (08:38):
Awesome and I believe it was on social media.
I saw that it was very popular.
There are thousands ofdownloads.
Is this correct?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (08:48):
Yeah, that's right.
It do have thousands ofdownload, point yeah.
Sheila Nonato (08:53):
That's amazing.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (08:54):
That is amazing.
Sheila Nonato (08:56):
And you also have created handouts for better
marital intimacy and one of thetips is prayer and preparation.
And I was just reading the Songof Songs, Song of Solomon,
which are, you know, love poems,and they're talking about the
bride and the groom.
And in marriage the union isalso in, I guess, the Catholic
(09:20):
tradition, it's seen as acovenant where the man, the
bride and the groom become oneand there's.
So there's this Christian viewof sex, of marriage, and then
sex in popular culture is vastlydifferent, so there's sort of a
dichotomy.
How do we bridge that dichotomy?
(09:41):
As Christian women, as Catholicwomen, how do you have a
healthy view of sex and inmarriage?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (09:51):
In a Christian view we can also distinguish
between Christian and CatholicChristian.
But I would say probably a lotof Protestant Christians see sex
as something Godly, you know,in marriage.
But when we look at ourCatholic worldview, our Catholic
(10:11):
teachings and moral visionabout sexuality, there is so
much richness there.
This is not just something wedo, it is something we say, it's
the body language of themarriage vows, it's how we
repeat our I do and affirm it toeach other over the course of
our married life to each other.
So it's such that the vows thatyou say at the altar I, you
(10:35):
know, with my husband, "I, sarah, take you, nathan, to be my
husband, you know all the daysof my life, all the days of my
life then that is something thatyou repeat physically each time
you come together.
And in having sex and marriageyou're saying I give my whole
self to you, I take all of youand you know, and our love is
(10:58):
open to God using it as a meansof creating life as well.
So then it's not just me and myhusband, it's me, my husband
and God as well, and it's apersonal, free, mutual gift of
self that's total, faithful,fruitful and free.
There's a lot to unpack inthere, but it's so much more
(11:18):
than just a fun thing to do andI would say also to counter some
false messages that are evenvery present in the Christian
world that it's.
There's this false idea that sexis a thing that a wife must do
for her husband because he hasneeds, and that is a distortion
of God's real.
(11:39):
You know the meaning God reallyput in it.
God gave sex for women just asmuch as for men.
Men and women both have needsand preferences, but sex isn't a
need.
No one ever died for lack ofsex and it's not something that
we are just obliged to do foreach other.
It's something that we'recalled to express and to say in
(12:00):
freedom.
So we always have our freedomto accept or decline initiations
and you know, and to be matureand to recognize the real person
there.
You know and what they're goingthrough.
So there's yeah, there's a lotthere, but it's rich and
beautiful and there's alwayssomething new to learn in this
area.
Sheila Nonato (12:20):
So would that be?
One of the common questionsthat women have is can I say "no
, and how do I say no in aloving way?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (12:29):
Yes, a connection and you know, desire
to be close that you should bebuilding in your marriage
together.
Yeah, and so how to do thatlovingly?
That's really important.
Because you want to say, yes, Iwant to be connected with you.
Yes, I see that you'reinterested and that you love me
and desire me.
That's really important,because you want to say, yes, I
want to be connected with you.
Yes, I see that you'reinterested and that you love me
and desire me.
That's lovely.
(12:49):
And so you could say somethinglike, "oh, thank you, I love you
too.
I want to be close to you.
I will be able to do that aftera good night's sleep or after
we repair better from our lastfight.
You know I'm still feelingreally hurt our last fight.
You know I'm still feelingreally hurt.
(13:09):
So the way to decline lovinglyis to say what it would take to
get to a yes and propose youknow how you can be connected
now and then how you can expressthat fuller connection later.
Be like, oh, I would reallylove to just nuggle with you now
and you know if you can help me.
You know, take a nap orwhatever it is.
You need help with right.
You know, take a nap orwhatever it is you need help
with, right?
You know, take the kidstomorrow night and give them
their bath so I can take a restand pull myself together a
(13:31):
little bit.
Then you know, I would love to,to connect with you and marital
embrace, you know, tomorrownight or next weekend or
whatever, yeah,
Sheila Nonato (13:40):
And so just to go back, so when it's OK to say
maybe not yet, instead of "o I'dsay a mom is tired or, you know
, has been breastfeeding prettymuch all day, or headache, you
know, I mean that people makejokes about that, but migraines
are real.
(14:01):
But health issues, because inthe Bible it says the man is the
head of the household, but it'sa sort of a mutual loving give
and take, life-givingrelationship, self-giving
relationship.
And so you're saying becausethere are probably some women
(14:23):
who will, as you were saying,think that you have to always
say yes, so when your health is,you know, as an issue, you're
tired, it's okay to say no.
Is that what you're saying, ornot?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (14:37):
Yes, exactly, it is okay to say, "no, just
make sure they know you lovethem so it doesn't feel like
such a personal rejection.
Or, you know, propose whatwould be great for you, like, oh
, could we please plan it forthis weekend?
Or, you know, whatever would bea more ideal situation.
(14:59):
But yeah, there is.
You have to take into accountyour well-being and the church
talks about that as well inHumanae Vitae, pope, st Pope
Paul VI's document from 1968,where he reaffirms the Church's
consistent stance againstartificial birth control.
(15:20):
And there he says one of theproblems that would arise if
birth control were to becomemainstream, which now it has.
But he says then a man wouldforget the reverence due to a
woman and would see her more asan object for the satisfaction
of his pleasure and not as hisbeloved wife whom he should
(15:40):
surround with care and affection.
And when we're in an"obligation sex lifestyle where
you think you always have to sayyes, that actually is not good
for men either.
It encourages them to feelentitled and it doesn't teach
them how to surround their wifewith care and reverence and
affection, and it doesn't teachthem how women really work,
(16:01):
which is that you know, we haveall these different factors that
affect us.
That's part of how God made usto be and you know, and really
the care that is needed for oursexuality to flourish.
Sometimes it's more rest, it'slower frequency of lovemaking
but a longer session per time wemake love to honor a woman's
(16:23):
longer, slower arousal curve andit's also making sure that
emotional connection is reallystrong and in place there as
well, so that she feels likewe're making love as a people,
you're not just using my body,like we're making love as a
people.
You're not just using my body,yeah, but it's always.
(16:44):
There's no moral obligation onwives in Catholic marriage to
always say, "y\es.
That is a commonmisunderstanding.
It's really present in someevangelical or, you know, some
Christian, protestant Christiancircles and then also in some
really traditionalist Catholiccommunities, um, some Latin mass
communities that, um, theirpriests will teach that you have
to have a serious, a gravereason to say no and you can
(17:05):
only say no in in cases of like,if the husband's drunk or it
would be a danger to your lifeif you were to get pregnant.
That's actually not rooted inany official Catholic teaching.
Um, the Catholic teachings onsex that we have in our church
since the real renaissance andflowering and growth of Catholic
sexual ethics and theology ofmarriage that we've seen in the
(17:27):
last hundred years.
All these documents emphasizemutuality.
And whenever they talk aboutsexual pleasure and the goodness
of sex, they don't say just forthe man, this applies to man
and woman both.
And how sexual pleasure and thegoodness of sex they don't say
just for the man, this appliesto man and woman both.
And how sexual pleasure usuallyworks for women is we need a
lot more care and that's justpart of God's plan.
(17:47):
So yeah, so I just want anywife out there who thinks they
can never say no.
Someone taught you that, butit's not actually Catholic
Church teaching.
So please free yourself fromthat sense of pressure because
it actually is harmful.
And Sheila Gregoire, who is aProtestant Christian author on
(18:09):
sex, she has done surveys whereshe finds that in these
communities in the Protestantworld, where women think they
can never say no or theirhusbands will be tempted to sin
if they say "no to sex, thesewomen are at much higher risk
for developing pain duringintercourse vaginismus from all
(18:32):
that pressure.
So it's not how God set this upto actually work.
Sheila Nonato (18:38):
Yeah, so a God-centered view of sexuality
is sacred, it's mutual, it's atotal gift of self.
So it's not about control.
Right, you have to have thatfreedom and, as you're saying,
the consent.
So, given that some of men'slove language is the physical
(18:58):
touch and there's that famousbook, the five love love
languages, how do we women, howcan we speak this language if
there is sort of there's sort ofa disparity, is that correct on
on who we view sex?
Or or or maybe dispel that mythfor me absolutely.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (19:15):
Let's start with love languages.
The author of love languagesspecified that when he's talking
about physical touch, hedoesn't mean sex, okay.
So if you have a husband or awife whose top love language is
physical touch, that isn'tsupposed to mean like that.
We shouldn't read this to meanthat, okay.
(19:37):
Well then you know they need alot more sex.
What we need to do is broadenour repertoire of physical touch
that communicates affection andconnection, and there's so many
kinds of touch that we can giveand share, such as, you know,
like touching a forearm handaround the waist, shoulder rub,
(19:59):
you know, a pat on the back asyou go by, maybe a little pat on
the bum if you want to beplayful sitting next to each
other on the couch.
These are all wonderful ways togive and receive touch, a nice
hug, and they don't need to beovertly sexual.
They don't need to mean like,oh, just because I gave you this
touch, this means that we're onfor sex tonight.
You know some women are afraidto give their husband physical
(20:22):
touch, because then they thinktheir husband will interpret
that to mean an initiation forlove making.
You know as soon as possible,and if that's the case, you just
need to have a lovingconversation and say, hey, I
want to be free to touch you.
I'll let you know, you knowclearly some other way if this
is an initiation or aninvitation.
But I'm afraid to touch you nowbecause I think that now I'm
(20:45):
committed to making love, youknow if I don't have the energy
to.
But yeah, increasing ourrepertoire of touch is really
important.
And then I think the other partof your question about, I think
basically is do I understandright?
Is it just like, do men desiresex more than women?
Yeah, is that the case?
(21:07):
Well, that's a reallyinteresting question and it's
hard to get real good studies onthat.
And then even the informationthat we have it's interesting to
try to analyze.
You know from what the numbersdo show.
Where is this coming from?
So some studies of younger menand women, like college age,
(21:27):
show that men and women haveequal amounts of spontaneous
sexual desire.
So spontaneous libido is when,just sort of out of the blue,
you just think having sex, thatsounds great, that would be fine
.
You kind of have the idea ofsex before you're even
physically aroused, and then,but responsive.
So that's one type of libido.
Another type of libido is aresponsive libido where, after
(21:50):
you and your husband are, youknow, cuddling and kissing and
getting a little touchy andmaybe even starting foreplay a
bit, then arousal kicks in andthen you respond and you get the
idea that like, oh, absolutely,having sex sounds really good.
Now I'm into it and I'minterested.
And I just want to affirm andencourage all the women out
(22:12):
there If that is how your libidoworks, that does not mean
you're low libido.
That just means you have aresponsive libido and many men
also have more responsivelibidos than spontaneous.
So one study I saw about menand women a little later on in
marriage suggested that maybe upto 20% of women are the higher
(22:33):
spontaneous libido spouse andagain, our studies are pretty
limited.
So that would suggest maybe 80%of men have the higher
spontaneous libido.
I think we need to do a lot morestudies on this.
But also, if that is the case,where does this come from?
And I think a big part of whereit could come from is that as
we're socialized growing up boys, teenagers that as we're
(22:59):
socialized growing up boys,teenagers, young men they're
really affirmed and told well,boys will be boys.
Oh yeah, that's so masculineand virile to desire sex and to
like women and to want to havesex, whereas women, as we become
teenagers, young women, even asgirls, we get the idea that to
be a good woman, good womendon't want sex.
"That's only what bad women do.
(23:20):
Only bad women want sex.
Only bad women would you know,get aroused and have you know
desire.
And so I think that a lot ofwomen are raised to really
distance themselves from thenatural desire that God gave
them.
A healthy way for both men andwomen to be raised would be to
(23:41):
say yes, god made you capable ofsexual desire and the right
place for that is marriage.
We're going to orient that tothe expression of authentic
sexual love in marriage.
But you're healthy and good andthis is normal to experience
desire.
Healthy and good and this isnormal to experience desire.
But we just need to orient it tothe proper place and learn how
(24:02):
to manage ourselves andintegrate this into our whole
personhood, not distanceourselves from it, not glorify
it, but, just like all our otherexperiences, like with hunger,
just because you're hungry andyou're out in public doesn't
mean you can just take any food.
You see right, you have to waitfor the proper time and the
(24:22):
food that is your food and eatin the you know.
And even then, when you haveyour food, you shouldn't eat it
in a greedy manner and bedisregarding of the people
around you.
When we like, the best way todine, to have a meal, is with
the people we love, with goodmanners, you know, with great
conversation.
Make the you know, make thefood an event, not just like
(24:45):
cram it in you know way.
We connect, share, communicate,we prepare for it.
There's some care around it.
We're respectful andconsiderate of each other, just
like when we have a nice mealtogether at the table.
Sheila Nonato (25:06):
So I imagine, as you were mentioning all of these
sort of issues, that Christianwomen, Catholic women, have some
challenges navigating this.
Maybe it's difficult to talk toa priest, right?
Maybe their mothers were notcomfortable talking about this,
or the schools even were notwell-equipped to teach theology
of the body, and I think this iswhere your program can fill
(25:29):
that gap.
So can you tell us what is "myDelight?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (25:34):
Yeah, "y Delight is a three-month group
course online where I take womenthrough an experience of really
getting to understand whatmight be holding them back from
feeling as free and connectedand creative and delighted in
their lovemaking with theirhusbands as God wants them to be
(25:54):
.
So I have lessons I've recordedand a workbook to really help
you do some deep reflection, aswell as weekly group calls where
women get to ask theirquestions anonymously and then I
answer them for the whole groupand everybody gets to hear the
answer without knowing who askedthe question.
(26:15):
So you get a chance, in a safecommunity of like-minded
Catholic women, to really askall those questions you never
knew who to ask before and someof the calls have themes.
This week we're right towardsthe end of Lent and this is when
I help women have healingexperiences.
(26:40):
So we talk about past wounds,regrets, baggage, bad messages,
bad experiences and then bringthem to the Lord for healing,
which is so appropriate to do aswe get ready to accompany Jesus
through his passion, death andresurrection with the Triduum.
Get ready to accompany Jesusthrough his passion, death and
resurrection.
With the triduum, we can bringall the pain and the baggage and
(27:05):
the frustration and the tearsright to the cross and have him,
take them up with him and thentransform them with his love.
But then on other calls, youknow I'll teach specific skills
or take women through otherreflection exercises and little
hands-on experiences, like withfruit, that help you learn more
mindfulness, which you can thentake to being really aware of
(27:25):
your senses and mindful in yourtime with your husband in
lovemaking, because a lot ofwomen find it really hard to be
present mentally.
They'll kind of dissociate,check out mentally, and it's
easy for us to do because wehave brains that are better
equipped for associativethinking.
(27:46):
You know we zip our thoughtsbetween the two hemispheres of
our brain a lot more easily thanmen do.
That means that you could be inthe middle of making love and
start running through yourgrocery list or meal planning
for the next day, which isn'treally ideal.
It takes certain mentaldiscipline to focus on.
Oh, you know, this is ustogether.
Now I'm here, I'll leave all myworries outside the bedroom
(28:06):
door mentally and, you know,really have a conversation with
words with my husband so we canboth be mentally and spiritually
and physically present to theexperience.
Sheila Nonato (28:20):
So when you mentioned baggage, so are you
referring to sort of trauma fromthe past, maybe even
pornography, past hurts.
What are women?
What are the common themes thatwomen are dealing with?
That is sort of a barrier tofully speaking this language of
love for their husband.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (28:42):
Yeah, and there is growth and healing
available, you know, in whateverstruggles or troubles you're
experiencing now, in lovemaking.
Yeah.
Sheila Nonato (28:55):
And so how do you help the women?
Do they sort of help each other?
How do they help?
How do you help them to healafter all of these trauma?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (29:04):
Yeah, they do help each other.
I'm not a therapist mydoctorate is in Catholic moral
theology but I have been througha lot of therapy myself.
So I do bring the women throughan exercise that my therapist
brought me through myself.
So I do bring the women throughan exercise that my therapist
brought me through where we kindof go back to our younger
version of ourself and give herlove and support and tenderness
(29:26):
and grace and we, you know,imagine Jesus there in that
moment, with younger you as well.
And then I also just point tolots of different resources.
You know we spend some timetaking time to remember what the
baggage might be, because a lotof times women have just
stuffed it and haven't take, youknow, haven't acknowledged it
for decades possibly.
So we take time to let it comeout.
(29:48):
And then I point women tohealing prayer.
Maybe this is something thatyou would do well to take to a
therapist and get therapy for.
And then I'll give some DIYideas for women to go and
continue the healing as wellSpending time in adoration, in
confession.
If it's a past sin that youhaven't confessed yet,
(30:09):
absolutely take that toconfession and then know that
Jesus really does forgive youand he forgets.
You know he isn't thinkingabout that anymore, but
journaling can be really helpfulas well.
So yeah, I just mentioned lotsof different avenues for healing
, as well as the exercise I leadwomen on in the call.
Sheila Nonato (30:30):
And what are other common issues that women
are facing?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (30:36):
One of the most common is thinking that
they're low libido becausethere's a desire difference with
their husband.
Their husband has higherspontaneous desire than they do,
and so they feel like there'ssomething wrong with me, I'm
broken, because I just I'm not,you know, not as interested as
he is.
(30:56):
And so with that, I'd like toremind women that just because
there's a desired difference,which there is in most marriages
one way or another, that doesnot mean that you are low libido
.
It just means that there's adifference in your spontaneous
(31:17):
libidos and frequency preference, and that's something you two
can manage together.
I think that's a really commonone women feeling pressure to
have sex as often as theirhusband would desire it.
But there's also plenty ofinstances of women having higher
spontaneous desire and theirhusband's not that interested,
(31:38):
and then they feel like what'swrong with me?
Aren't I beautiful?
Doesn't he love me?
You know, is there somethingelse?
And this is also just anopportunity for education and
understanding that both men andwomen have things that get us
interested and in the mood andthings that dampen our libido
stress, mental health, you know,depression, anxiety, really
(32:01):
strict upbringing where you feltlike you could never do
anything right.
That can really be somethingthat could result in a man as an
adult feeling much morehesitant about initiating
lovemaking if you have supercritical parents.
Yeah, so those are some commonissues Pain during intercourse
(32:22):
and I always like to remindwomen they can find help with
pelvic floor physical therapy aswell but also our mindset about
sex and the practices we do.
You know how we manage ourrelationship and our mind and
our conversations.
That can be a big difficulty.
(32:43):
With orgasm or inability toexperience orgasm is another
common problem.
And then, interestingly, thereare also plenty of women who are
orgasming just fine, but theydon't like sex because they
don't feel that emotionalconnection with their husband.
They feel like it's just thisphysical, mechanical thing and
(33:04):
we don't feel really close witheach other.
So that's another issue.
And then a lot of women strugglewith just feeling like sex is
dirty and yucky and you knowthey just feel icky about it.
So that's something I try tohelp with as well.
When we just talk about God'splan and every part of our body
(33:27):
is good, and you know, when wethink about eating, you could
think about eating them the sameway too.
You know you chew and ourmouths make saliva and then we
have to do the dishes afterwardsand wipe stuff off the plates
and you know, but most of usdon't think of as eating, as
icky.
Right, we've developed thesepositive associations around
(33:48):
eating and it's possible alsofor women to retrain how they
think about lovemaking and formpositive associations and
beliefs around it as well.
Sheila Nonato (34:01):
So this negative sort of association or
experience, I guess, with sex,is that related to again, like
we're going back to sort of pornand the OnlyFans kind of
culture and body image?
Are they sort of feelingself-conscious or just having an
unhealthy mindset about, aboutsex?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (34:23):
It could well be from porn culture or just
thinking like well, you know,the only women who are sexy are
women in porn, or women who areobjectifying themselves, and I'm
a good woman and so I don't dostuff like that, you know.
So that could be really.
That could be part of it.
A lot of it could come from"purity culture as well, where
(34:45):
there's a lot of emphasis placedon the woman, the girl, the
teenager, young woman being theone to hold the boundaries, on
saving sex for marriage, onpushing back her boyfriend's
advances and on not experiencingdesire herself.
And it's so hard for so manywomen to flip the switch from
(35:08):
thinking of sex as just sinfuland bad all the time through
growing up to then on yourwedding day, all of a sudden
it's what you do and it's good.
It's hard to kind of navigate,you know crossing into that
threshold.
So you know, or if we wereraised and our parents always
said like, oh, you know you'redirty down there, or that's
(35:31):
yucky right.
Or not having you know propernames for your private parts,
you pick up that sense that like, ooh, there's something
offensive about my body or mybody's yucky right.
So it can be lots of differentfactors that go into.
You know, feeling icky aboutsex, but again, sheila, what you
(35:51):
started off the conversationwith, with talking about the
song of songs, I think you cango to the scripture and read the
Song of Songs and see how thebride and the bridegroom there
are both very in touch with thebeauty of sexuality, both the
bride and the bridegroom.
Their words are both very sexyand erotic and glorifying God,
(36:16):
but also honouring andrespecting each other and not
squeamish about.
You know, there is poeticlanguage and imagery there.
The body parts aren't namedexplicitly, but they're
definitely suggested, and theactions of lovemaking are
definitely suggested there.
If you know how to interpretmetaphor, you will see them
(36:37):
really clearly, and then you cansee oh right, here in the Bible
, here is a woman who is, youknow, is unafraid to be sexy and
sexual and invite her belovedinto an embrace, and she
actually uses her voice in theSong of Songs more than the
bridegroom does himself.
(36:57):
She has more words there thanhe does.
Who's really surprised, thoughyou know, that the woman has
more words than the man.
But that can be a reallyhealing experience is to
prayerfully, with Jesus, readthrough the Song of Songs and
realize oh, god gives mepermission and, you know,
affirms the goodness ofsexuality.
And it's not yucky, it'sactually really beautiful it's.
(37:20):
You know, it's mankind that hasdistorted it and made it into
this objectifying thing, but inits original goodness it's
beautiful beautiful.
Sheila Nonato (37:40):
So it's okay to feel pleasure and joy with your
husband, because it's what Godhad intended and what God had
made for both men and women, andit is Holy and life-giving.
And I'm also curious.
So in the Catholic teaching,sex is also, there's a sort of a
fruitful end to it children.
So can you have sex without theintention of children, or is
(38:05):
that not allowed?
Can you help us?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (38:09):
Well, the Church has given us such clear,
good teaching in Humanae Vitaeand then that's reemphasized,
reiterated in the Catechism ofthe Catholic Church, that having
sex is good and these are nobleand worthy actions between
husband and wife.
And the pleasure?
That Catechism?
(38:30):
I believe it's paragraph 2361.
I'll have to go back and check,but there is a in the section
on sexuality in the Catechism.
It does say that the CreatorHimself endowed the generative
function with pleasure andspouses do nothing wrong in
seeking this pleasure.
And it says spouses, not justmen or women alone, but like
(38:52):
together, husband and wife.
Both this pleasure is for bothof them, or women alone, but
like together, husband and wife.
Both this pleasure is for bothof them.
And also, exercisingresponsible parenthood can mean
generously welcoming all thechildren.
You know that being open toraising a large family and
responsible parenthood couldalso mean discerning that now is
(39:15):
not the best time for us towelcome a new child because of
health or psychological oreconomic or social reasons.
The C hurch leaves it quitebroad.
If you read Humanae Vitae youknow there's lots of different
kinds of reasons that aresuggested where husband and wife
might discern it's best to waiton having kids and it's okay
(39:38):
for them to still have sex inthose times, just as long as
they don't do anything before,during or after making love to
purposely block fertility,because sex has the procreative
and unitive functionsintrinsically integrated.
They are, you know, thestructure of making love in a
(40:00):
way that's life-giving, is theway also that is fully unitive
for husband and wife.
If the husband's climax isinside the wife and during their
embrace, that is, you know, acomplete, total self-gift for
both of them.
That is the kind of action thatcould result in a child.
But you could also, you know,do that and make love using
(40:25):
natural family planning toobserve the wife's signs of
fertility and infertility andchoose to make love when the
wife isn't fertile during hercycle.
That is still, you know, renewal.
It's good because renewing yourmarriage bond and increasing,
you know, your gratitude andaffection and closeness to each
other or it should be ideally.
(40:46):
But you can make love withouthaving the express purpose of
trying to conceive a childduring that time and it's
totally okay to use of trying toconceive a child during that
time and it's totally okay touse natural family planning as a
means to space children.
.
And a great way to think aboutthis is think of if you want
$100.
There's lots of good reasonsfor wanting $100.
Maybe you want to pay kidssports registration fees, or you
(41:10):
need some new clothes orwhatever.
Totally fine to want $100.
You could get $100 in a bad way.
You could take someone else'smoney or rob a bank right, or
earn money in some fat way whereyou're tricking people right.
That would be an illicit way,an immoral way to get $100.
(41:30):
But you could also, each timeyou go to the grocery store, buy
cheaper items for what you needand, you know, save money until
you've saved up $100.
You could purposely, you know,not buy some new thing that you
don't really need, but it wouldjust be kind of a nice to have
you refrain from buying it untilyou've saved up $100.
(41:53):
That's more like using naturalfamily planning, because natural
family planning is justrefraining from making love
during the fertile period.
So I hope that's helpful forsome people.
Sheila Nonato (42:03):
Okay, so yeah, just to be clear.
So contraception, we're nottalking about contraception,
we're talking about naturalfamily planning and it's all
within sort of the guidelines ofwhat the church has given us.
Is there like, I don't know, isthere a?
I don't know?
Is there like a minimum and amaximum amount of yeah, how many
(42:25):
times can you make love?
I don't know, is there such athing?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (42:29):
Yeah, well, great, a lot of people are
wondering about that and beforeI answer that, I just want to
follow up to the discussionabout artificial contraception.
Yes, of course People think well, the pull-out method.
If the husband, you know, justpulls out before his pregnancy,
then there's nothing artificialabout that.
We're not using a device or apill or anything.
(42:49):
That is doing somethingpurposely, you know.
That actually is contraception,also Pretty ineffective.
But that's the list.
So just keep an individualbeing oh, it's natural, so it's
okay, it's not okay.
So frequency and minimum ormaximum times couples are
(43:12):
totally free to decide whatworks best for them in their
marriage.
The only minimum we have is thatif you want to have grounds for
annulment if you've never madelove ever, then that marriage
hasn't been consummated and soyou can apply for an annulment
on the grounds that marriage hasnever been consummated.
So I guess if we look at that,then we'll say, okay, minimum,
(43:35):
at least once, right, ever inyour marriage.
But couples are really free.
There are some couples who feelboth really great about making
love once or twice a year, likeon their anniversary or birthday
, or quarterly, every two orthree months.
They're on the other end of thespectrum.
A Catholic coach that I knowsaid that one time she was
(43:58):
coaching a client of hers whowas having a real struggle
because in her marriage with herhusband.
They had to go down from havingsex three times a day to just
once a day.
Can you imagine?
I know I feel like I might needan ice pack just thinking about
that, but for them once a daywas a really reduced frequency.
So the Church, Rome, has notspoken.
(44:20):
You know there is no guidanceor you know minimum or maximum
anywhere.
What Sheila Gregoire, who is, asI mentioned she's this
Protestant Christian author inher informal surveys these are
not peer-reviewed double-blindstudies or you know, they're not
like sociological science, butjust more informal studies she
(44:41):
has found that the couples whoreport that they feel really
happy and close and good intheir marriages are also often
the couples that are making loveat least once a week.
And I would say look at that onan average over the course of a
month, because with NaturalFamily Planning, or kid
illnesses or travel or whatnot,you know, maybe let's shoot for
about four times a month, butyou get to decide.
(45:03):
I've talked to other couples,another wife that I know in a
Catholic business women's groupthat I'm in, and she said she
and her husband, you know it'sonce a month and that is great
for both of them and you knowthey're really busy, they're
business owners, they have, youknow, an active family, so once
a month is what's working forthem.
And then, you know, I also hearfrom women in marriages where
(45:28):
it's like four or five times aweek.
You really get to decide, but Ithink either way, it's important
to talk with your husband andeach of you share, like ideally,
what would my ideal frequencybe if I just sat down and
thought about it?
Would it be every other week?
Would it be once a week?
Would it be, you know, two orthree times a month?
Would it be five times a week?
You share your number, ask himto share his, and then a really
(45:52):
nice, mature, loving way to goforward would be, then, to meet
in the middle somewhere and makea plan for scheduling and, you
know, or having as a goal tomake love at the frequency
that's somewhere in the middlebetween both of your preference.
Sheila Nonato (46:12):
And when you mentioned communication, good
communication is essential inany relationship.
Do women in your program, dosome of them have sort of
difficulty in initiating ormentioning you know?
Do they wait for their husband?
Is this a frustration forhusbands that the women wait?
How do we sort of bridge thegap?
If it is, thank you for joiningus.
Outro (46:34):
Join us next time when Dr .
Sarah Bertal answers thisquestion of how to improve
communication in marriage for ahappy, holy and lasting marriage
.
Thank you and God bless.
Thank you for listening to theVeil and Armour podcast.
Co-host (47:01):
I invite you to share this with another Catholic Mom
today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's Be Brave, let's Be Boldand Be Blessed together.
The Marriage at Cana, according to the Gospel of
St John.
On the third day there was amarriage at Cana, in Galilee,
and the Mother of Jesus wasthere.
Jesus also was invited to themarriage with his disciples.
When the wine failed, theMother of Jesus said to Him,
"have no wine.
And Jesus said to her O woman,what have you to do with me?
(00:24):
My hour has not yet come.
His mother said to the servantsDo whatever he tells you To
certain Christ.
This week we will be looking atthe important topic of marital
(00:44):
intimacy.
And what does Jesus say?
What does the Bible say?
What does the Catholic Churchsay about the sanctity of sex
within marriage?
Let's have a listen to thisweek's episode with Dr Sarah
Bartel.
Intro (01:02):
Hello and Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
Our Lady.
I strive to tell stories thatinspire, illuminate and enrich
the lives of Catholic women, tohelp them in living out our
vocation of raising the nextgeneration of leaders and saints
(01:24):
.
Co-host (01:25):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (01:32):
Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast, Sisters
in Christ.
My family and I have justrecently returned from
Steubenville, Ohio, at a blessedevent: the Catholic Creators
Conference, and I can't wait toshare more with you in the next
coming episodes.
Today, we're going to look at avery important aspect of the
(01:54):
married life as part of ourexploration of holiness in
everyday life.
As we look at the divorce ratein the United States and Canada,
they have been on the declinefor younger couples in recent
years.
Yet longer marriages have seendivorce rates increase.
According to Divorce.
com, among the top reasons fordivorce have been: lack of
(02:16):
affection and lack of emotionaland or physical intimacy.
I spoke with Dr Sarah Bartel, aCatholic sex and marriage coach
for Catholic brides.
Please join me in this veryimportant conversation.
Thank you and God bless.
The Interview (02:34):
Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast.
Hello, Sisters in Christ.
Last week we touched upon hell.
More about that later.
Now(Link to the video " we'regoing to be talking about
experiencing heaven in marriageand since this is a mature topic
, I would advise those listeningto please wear your earbuds or
headphones if you are aroundyour kids.
I'm honored to welcome Dr SarahBartel.
(02:55):
Dr.
Sarah Bartel is a moraltheologian, and a Catholic sex
and marriage coach.
She is the host of the "yDelight podcast for Catholic
women.
She is the host of the myDelight podcast for Catholic
women.
Together with her husband,nathan, she has served thousands
of Catholic couples throughtheir canafeastcom online
ministry, which includes theirAbundant Marriage course and a
little way of marriage workshop.
Her newest course, my Delight,is a groundbreaking program
(03:24):
designed to undo knots of shame,ignorance and isolation to help
engaged and married women learnhow to develop holy, healthy
intimacy with their husbands.
She's a mom of five based nearSeattle Washington, where she
loves hiking, reading JaneAusten, feeding her kids salmon
and heading off on adventures.
Sarah earned a BA in Humanitiesand Catholic Culture and an MA
in Religious Studies fromGonzaga University, and she
(03:47):
completed her PhD in MoralTheology from the Catholic
University of America.
Dr Bartel draws uponmagisterial documents and the
Catholic moral tradition tobring clear, faithful and
practical answers about what isand isn't allowed in the bedroom
and other important issues andmarital intimacy.
May we start off with a prayer,Dr.
(04:07):
Bartel.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (04:09):
In the name of the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Lord, we glorify you and praiseyou and thank you.
Thank you for creating us inlove and for love.
Thank you for your beautifulplan for man, woman, marriage
and sexuality, for yourbeautiful plan for man, woman,
marriage and sexuality, for yourbeautiful plan for family life.
(04:31):
And we just pray that you'llbless our conversation, that
your Holy Spirit will workthrough our words and thoughts
to draw out what will be mosthelpful, most inspirational,
(04:51):
most educational and insightfuland healing for all the
beautiful women listening.
That you will shine your light,Lord, on what needs to be most
held out to help us allunderstand better how to
celebrate our sacramentalmarriages in the marital embrace
in a way that really glorifiesyou and that honors your design
for women as well as men, tothrive in this area.
And, Lord, we pray for allthose who've experienced
(05:12):
frustration, hurt, pain, for allthose who feel like they're
broken, that you will give themcomfort and guidance and,
especially, just reassurancethat they're not alone and that
there are answers and there'shelp for all these struggles in
this inner sanctuary of marriageand the marriage bed and the
(05:33):
marital embrace.
And we just love you, Lord, andglorify you, and we just pray
that every Catholic marriagewill be a true, authentic
reflection of the love of theTrinity, that there will be open
hearts and open sharing, and wejust pray for especially the
much needed gift of emotionalintelligence and emotional
(05:57):
connection in marriage as thefoundation for all of this.
Mother Mary, please pray for allthe women involved in this
podcast, all those listening,for Sheila and for our
conversation to be a little bitof an echo of your encounter
with Elizabeth at the visitationthat, as you, two beautiful
women, rejoiced in praise andmagnifying the Lord for the
(06:21):
great things that he has donefor you in your fertility, in
your feminine genius, that wewomen also will be able to have
an encounter and a connectionthat magnifies the Lord as we
reflect on the great and goodthings he has done in making us
women and using us to be bearersof God's love and of his plan
(06:45):
for life into the world.
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, prayfor us sinners now and at the
hour of our death.
Amen, in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, Amen.
Sheila Nonato (07:06):
Thank you so much for that beautiful prayer.
So you started the podcast, Ibelieve it's in January, Is that
correct?
How is it going?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (07:16):
Well, it's been a lot of fun.
Yes, I have been interested inthis new medium for me.
I've been teaching my class "yDelight for a couple of years
online, so that's new for me tohave this, this format of
hosting a podcast, to haveconversations with me.
(07:38):
Then I ran out of thoseepisodes and did a solo episode
for the first time last week andit went a lot better than I
thought it would.
But I've been getting wonderfulfeedback from both my own
students and those on our emailswho aren't part of my program,
saying you know that this orthat topic that I've touched on
has been helpful for them.
(08:00):
And, yeah, I'm praying for God'sguidance to help me choose
future topics.
There's some that I know I needto address, sheila, and I just
need to really, you know, askGod's gift of courage, because I
want to be well prepared totalk about, for example, the
marital debt, this idea ofmarital debt.
I want to have my ducks in arow and research ready too,
(08:22):
because there are a lot ofmisunderstandings out there
around this topic.
And, yeah, I want to be able toprovide something free online
where people can turn to and getsome clear guidance that is
accurate and true for that, butyeah, it's been fun, thank you.
Sheila Nonato (08:38):
Awesome and I believe it was on social media.
I saw that it was very popular.
There are thousands ofdownloads.
Is this correct?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (08:48):
Yeah, that's right.
It do have thousands ofdownload, point yeah.
Sheila Nonato (08:53):
That's amazing.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (08:54):
That is amazing.
Sheila Nonato (08:56):
And you also have created handouts for better
marital intimacy and one of thetips is prayer and preparation.
And I was just reading the Songof Songs, Song of Solomon,
which are, you know, love poems,and they're talking about the
bride and the groom.
And in marriage the union isalso in, I guess, the Catholic
(09:20):
tradition, it's seen as acovenant where the man, the
bride and the groom become oneand there's.
So there's this Christian viewof sex, of marriage, and then
sex in popular culture is vastlydifferent, so there's sort of a
dichotomy.
How do we bridge that dichotomy?
(09:41):
As Christian women, as Catholicwomen, how do you have a
healthy view of sex and inmarriage?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (09:51):
In a Christian view we can also distinguish
between Christian and CatholicChristian.
But I would say probably a lotof Protestant Christians see sex
as something Godly, you know,in marriage.
But when we look at ourCatholic worldview, our Catholic
(10:11):
teachings and moral visionabout sexuality, there is so
much richness there.
This is not just something wedo, it is something we say, it's
the body language of themarriage vows, it's how we
repeat our I do and affirm it toeach other over the course of
our married life to each other.
So it's such that the vows thatyou say at the altar I, you
(10:35):
know, with my husband, "I, sarah, take you, nathan, to be my
husband, you know all the daysof my life, all the days of my
life then that is something thatyou repeat physically each time
you come together.
And in having sex and marriageyou're saying I give my whole
self to you, I take all of youand you know, and our love is
(10:58):
open to God using it as a meansof creating life as well.
So then it's not just me and myhusband, it's me, my husband
and God as well, and it's apersonal, free, mutual gift of
self that's total, faithful,fruitful and free.
There's a lot to unpack inthere, but it's so much more
(11:18):
than just a fun thing to do andI would say also to counter some
false messages that are evenvery present in the Christian
world that it's.
There's this false idea that sexis a thing that a wife must do
for her husband because he hasneeds, and that is a distortion
of God's real.
(11:39):
You know the meaning God reallyput in it.
God gave sex for women just asmuch as for men.
Men and women both have needsand preferences, but sex isn't a
need.
No one ever died for lack ofsex and it's not something that
we are just obliged to do foreach other.
It's something that we'recalled to express and to say in
(12:00):
freedom.
So we always have our freedomto accept or decline initiations
and you know, and to be matureand to recognize the real person
there.
You know and what they're goingthrough.
So there's yeah, there's a lotthere, but it's rich and
beautiful and there's alwayssomething new to learn in this
area.
Sheila Nonato (12:20):
So would that be?
One of the common questionsthat women have is can I say "no
, and how do I say no in aloving way?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (12:29):
Yes, a connection and you know, desire
to be close that you should bebuilding in your marriage
together.
Yeah, and so how to do thatlovingly?
That's really important.
Because you want to say, yes, Iwant to be connected with you.
Yes, I see that you'reinterested and that you love me
and desire me.
That's really important,because you want to say, yes, I
want to be connected with you.
Yes, I see that you'reinterested and that you love me
and desire me.
That's lovely.
(12:49):
And so you could say somethinglike, "oh, thank you, I love you
too.
I want to be close to you.
I will be able to do that aftera good night's sleep or after
we repair better from our lastfight.
You know I'm still feelingreally hurt our last fight.
You know I'm still feelingreally hurt.
(13:09):
So the way to decline lovinglyis to say what it would take to
get to a yes and propose youknow how you can be connected
now and then how you can expressthat fuller connection later.
Be like, oh, I would reallylove to just nuggle with you now
and you know if you can help me.
You know, take a nap orwhatever it is.
You need help with right.
You know, take a nap orwhatever it is you need help
with, right?
You know, take the kidstomorrow night and give them
their bath so I can take a restand pull myself together a
(13:31):
little bit.
Then you know, I would love to,to connect with you and marital
embrace, you know, tomorrownight or next weekend or
whatever, yeah,
Sheila Nonato (13:40):
And so just to go back, so when it's OK to say
maybe not yet, instead of "o I'dsay a mom is tired or, you know
, has been breastfeeding prettymuch all day, or headache, you
know, I mean that people makejokes about that, but migraines
are real.
(14:01):
But health issues, because inthe Bible it says the man is the
head of the household, but it'sa sort of a mutual loving give
and take, life-givingrelationship, self-giving
relationship.
And so you're saying becausethere are probably some women
(14:23):
who will, as you were saying,think that you have to always
say yes, so when your health is,you know, as an issue, you're
tired, it's okay to say no.
Is that what you're saying, ornot?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (14:37):
Yes, exactly, it is okay to say, "no, just
make sure they know you lovethem so it doesn't feel like
such a personal rejection.
Or, you know, propose whatwould be great for you, like, oh
, could we please plan it forthis weekend?
Or, you know, whatever would bea more ideal situation.
(14:59):
But yeah, there is.
You have to take into accountyour well-being and the church
talks about that as well inHumanae Vitae, pope, st Pope
Paul VI's document from 1968,where he reaffirms the Church's
consistent stance againstartificial birth control.
(15:20):
And there he says one of theproblems that would arise if
birth control were to becomemainstream, which now it has.
But he says then a man wouldforget the reverence due to a
woman and would see her more asan object for the satisfaction
of his pleasure and not as hisbeloved wife whom he should
(15:40):
surround with care and affection.
And when we're in an"obligation sex lifestyle where
you think you always have to sayyes, that actually is not good
for men either.
It encourages them to feelentitled and it doesn't teach
them how to surround their wifewith care and reverence and
affection, and it doesn't teachthem how women really work,
(16:01):
which is that you know, we haveall these different factors that
affect us.
That's part of how God made usto be and you know, and really
the care that is needed for oursexuality to flourish.
Sometimes it's more rest, it'slower frequency of lovemaking
but a longer session per time wemake love to honor a woman's
(16:23):
longer, slower arousal curve andit's also making sure that
emotional connection is reallystrong and in place there as
well, so that she feels likewe're making love as a people,
you're not just using my body,like we're making love as a
people.
You're not just using my body,yeah, but it's always.
(16:44):
There's no moral obligation onwives in Catholic marriage to
always say, "y\es.
That is a commonmisunderstanding.
It's really present in someevangelical or, you know, some
Christian, protestant Christiancircles and then also in some
really traditionalist Catholiccommunities, um, some Latin mass
communities that, um, theirpriests will teach that you have
to have a serious, a gravereason to say no and you can
(17:05):
only say no in in cases of like,if the husband's drunk or it
would be a danger to your lifeif you were to get pregnant.
That's actually not rooted inany official Catholic teaching.
Um, the Catholic teachings onsex that we have in our church
since the real renaissance andflowering and growth of Catholic
sexual ethics and theology ofmarriage that we've seen in the
(17:27):
last hundred years.
All these documents emphasizemutuality.
And whenever they talk aboutsexual pleasure and the goodness
of sex, they don't say just forthe man, this applies to man
and woman both.
And how sexual pleasure and thegoodness of sex they don't say
just for the man, this appliesto man and woman both.
And how sexual pleasure usuallyworks for women is we need a
lot more care and that's justpart of God's plan.
(17:47):
So yeah, so I just want anywife out there who thinks they
can never say no.
Someone taught you that, butit's not actually Catholic
Church teaching.
So please free yourself fromthat sense of pressure because
it actually is harmful.
And Sheila Gregoire, who is aProtestant Christian author on
(18:09):
sex, she has done surveys whereshe finds that in these
communities in the Protestantworld, where women think they
can never say no or theirhusbands will be tempted to sin
if they say "no to sex, thesewomen are at much higher risk
for developing pain duringintercourse vaginismus from all
(18:32):
that pressure.
So it's not how God set this upto actually work.
Sheila Nonato (18:38):
Yeah, so a God-centered view of sexuality
is sacred, it's mutual, it's atotal gift of self.
So it's not about control.
Right, you have to have thatfreedom and, as you're saying,
the consent.
So, given that some of men'slove language is the physical
(18:58):
touch and there's that famousbook, the five love love
languages, how do we women, howcan we speak this language if
there is sort of there's sort ofa disparity, is that correct on
on who we view sex?
Or or or maybe dispel that mythfor me absolutely.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (19:15):
Let's start with love languages.
The author of love languagesspecified that when he's talking
about physical touch, hedoesn't mean sex, okay.
So if you have a husband or awife whose top love language is
physical touch, that isn'tsupposed to mean like that.
We shouldn't read this to meanthat, okay.
(19:37):
Well then you know they need alot more sex.
What we need to do is broadenour repertoire of physical touch
that communicates affection andconnection, and there's so many
kinds of touch that we can giveand share, such as, you know,
like touching a forearm handaround the waist, shoulder rub,
(19:59):
you know, a pat on the back asyou go by, maybe a little pat on
the bum if you want to beplayful sitting next to each
other on the couch.
These are all wonderful ways togive and receive touch, a nice
hug, and they don't need to beovertly sexual.
They don't need to mean like,oh, just because I gave you this
touch, this means that we're onfor sex tonight.
You know some women are afraidto give their husband physical
(20:22):
touch, because then they thinktheir husband will interpret
that to mean an initiation forlove making.
You know as soon as possible,and if that's the case, you just
need to have a lovingconversation and say, hey, I
want to be free to touch you.
I'll let you know, you knowclearly some other way if this
is an initiation or aninvitation.
But I'm afraid to touch you nowbecause I think that now I'm
(20:45):
committed to making love, youknow if I don't have the energy
to.
But yeah, increasing ourrepertoire of touch is really
important.
And then I think the other partof your question about, I think
basically is do I understandright?
Is it just like, do men desiresex more than women?
Yeah, is that the case?
(21:07):
Well, that's a reallyinteresting question and it's
hard to get real good studies onthat.
And then even the informationthat we have it's interesting to
try to analyze.
You know from what the numbersdo show.
Where is this coming from?
So some studies of younger menand women, like college age,
(21:27):
show that men and women haveequal amounts of spontaneous
sexual desire.
So spontaneous libido is when,just sort of out of the blue,
you just think having sex, thatsounds great, that would be fine
.
You kind of have the idea ofsex before you're even
physically aroused, and then,but responsive.
So that's one type of libido.
Another type of libido is aresponsive libido where, after
(21:50):
you and your husband are, youknow, cuddling and kissing and
getting a little touchy andmaybe even starting foreplay a
bit, then arousal kicks in andthen you respond and you get the
idea that like, oh, absolutely,having sex sounds really good.
Now I'm into it and I'minterested.
And I just want to affirm andencourage all the women out
(22:12):
there If that is how your libidoworks, that does not mean
you're low libido.
That just means you have aresponsive libido and many men
also have more responsivelibidos than spontaneous.
So one study I saw about menand women a little later on in
marriage suggested that maybe upto 20% of women are the higher
(22:33):
spontaneous libido spouse andagain, our studies are pretty
limited.
So that would suggest maybe 80%of men have the higher
spontaneous libido.
I think we need to do a lot morestudies on this.
But also, if that is the case,where does this come from?
And I think a big part of whereit could come from is that as
we're socialized growing up boys, teenagers that as we're
(22:59):
socialized growing up boys,teenagers, young men they're
really affirmed and told well,boys will be boys.
Oh yeah, that's so masculineand virile to desire sex and to
like women and to want to havesex, whereas women, as we become
teenagers, young women, even asgirls, we get the idea that to
be a good woman, good womendon't want sex.
"That's only what bad women do.
(23:20):
Only bad women want sex.
Only bad women would you know,get aroused and have you know
desire.
And so I think that a lot ofwomen are raised to really
distance themselves from thenatural desire that God gave
them.
A healthy way for both men andwomen to be raised would be to
(23:41):
say yes, god made you capable ofsexual desire and the right
place for that is marriage.
We're going to orient that tothe expression of authentic
sexual love in marriage.
But you're healthy and good andthis is normal to experience
desire.
Healthy and good and this isnormal to experience desire.
But we just need to orient it tothe proper place and learn how
(24:02):
to manage ourselves andintegrate this into our whole
personhood, not distanceourselves from it, not glorify
it, but, just like all our otherexperiences, like with hunger,
just because you're hungry andyou're out in public doesn't
mean you can just take any food.
You see right, you have to waitfor the proper time and the
(24:22):
food that is your food and eatin the you know.
And even then, when you haveyour food, you shouldn't eat it
in a greedy manner and bedisregarding of the people
around you.
When we like, the best way todine, to have a meal, is with
the people we love, with goodmanners, you know, with great
conversation.
Make the you know, make thefood an event, not just like
(24:45):
cram it in you know way.
We connect, share, communicate,we prepare for it.
There's some care around it.
We're respectful andconsiderate of each other, just
like when we have a nice mealtogether at the table.
Sheila Nonato (25:06):
So I imagine, as you were mentioning all of these
sort of issues, that Christianwomen, Catholic women, have some
challenges navigating this.
Maybe it's difficult to talk toa priest, right?
Maybe their mothers were notcomfortable talking about this,
or the schools even were notwell-equipped to teach theology
of the body, and I think this iswhere your program can fill
(25:29):
that gap.
So can you tell us what is "myDelight?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (25:34):
Yeah, "y Delight is a three-month group
course online where I take womenthrough an experience of really
getting to understand whatmight be holding them back from
feeling as free and connectedand creative and delighted in
their lovemaking with theirhusbands as God wants them to be
(25:54):
.
So I have lessons I've recordedand a workbook to really help
you do some deep reflection, aswell as weekly group calls where
women get to ask theirquestions anonymously and then I
answer them for the whole groupand everybody gets to hear the
answer without knowing who askedthe question.
(26:15):
So you get a chance, in a safecommunity of like-minded
Catholic women, to really askall those questions you never
knew who to ask before and someof the calls have themes.
This week we're right towardsthe end of Lent and this is when
I help women have healingexperiences.
(26:40):
So we talk about past wounds,regrets, baggage, bad messages,
bad experiences and then bringthem to the Lord for healing,
which is so appropriate to do aswe get ready to accompany Jesus
through his passion, death andresurrection with the Triduum.
Get ready to accompany Jesusthrough his passion, death and
resurrection.
With the triduum, we can bringall the pain and the baggage and
(27:05):
the frustration and the tearsright to the cross and have him,
take them up with him and thentransform them with his love.
But then on other calls, youknow I'll teach specific skills
or take women through otherreflection exercises and little
hands-on experiences, like withfruit, that help you learn more
mindfulness, which you can thentake to being really aware of
(27:25):
your senses and mindful in yourtime with your husband in
lovemaking, because a lot ofwomen find it really hard to be
present mentally.
They'll kind of dissociate,check out mentally, and it's
easy for us to do because wehave brains that are better
equipped for associativethinking.
(27:46):
You know we zip our thoughtsbetween the two hemispheres of
our brain a lot more easily thanmen do.
That means that you could be inthe middle of making love and
start running through yourgrocery list or meal planning
for the next day, which isn'treally ideal.
It takes certain mentaldiscipline to focus on.
Oh, you know, this is ustogether.
Now I'm here, I'll leave all myworries outside the bedroom
(28:06):
door mentally and, you know,really have a conversation with
words with my husband so we canboth be mentally and spiritually
and physically present to theexperience.
Sheila Nonato (28:20):
So when you mentioned baggage, so are you
referring to sort of trauma fromthe past, maybe even
pornography, past hurts.
What are women?
What are the common themes thatwomen are dealing with?
That is sort of a barrier tofully speaking this language of
love for their husband.
Dr. Sarah Bartel (28:42):
Yeah, and there is growth and healing
available, you know, in whateverstruggles or troubles you're
experiencing now, in lovemaking.
Yeah.
Sheila Nonato (28:55):
And so how do you help the women?
Do they sort of help each other?
How do they help?
How do you help them to healafter all of these trauma?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (29:04):
Yeah, they do help each other.
I'm not a therapist mydoctorate is in Catholic moral
theology but I have been througha lot of therapy myself.
So I do bring the women throughan exercise that my therapist
brought me through myself.
So I do bring the women throughan exercise that my therapist
brought me through where we kindof go back to our younger
version of ourself and give herlove and support and tenderness
(29:26):
and grace and we, you know,imagine Jesus there in that
moment, with younger you as well.
And then I also just point tolots of different resources.
You know we spend some timetaking time to remember what the
baggage might be, because a lotof times women have just
stuffed it and haven't take, youknow, haven't acknowledged it
for decades possibly.
So we take time to let it comeout.
(29:48):
And then I point women tohealing prayer.
Maybe this is something thatyou would do well to take to a
therapist and get therapy for.
And then I'll give some DIYideas for women to go and
continue the healing as wellSpending time in adoration, in
confession.
If it's a past sin that youhaven't confessed yet,
(30:09):
absolutely take that toconfession and then know that
Jesus really does forgive youand he forgets.
You know he isn't thinkingabout that anymore, but
journaling can be really helpfulas well.
So yeah, I just mentioned lotsof different avenues for healing
, as well as the exercise I leadwomen on in the call.
Sheila Nonato (30:30):
And what are other common issues that women
are facing?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (30:36):
One of the most common is thinking that
they're low libido becausethere's a desire difference with
their husband.
Their husband has higherspontaneous desire than they do,
and so they feel like there'ssomething wrong with me, I'm
broken, because I just I'm not,you know, not as interested as
he is.
(30:56):
And so with that, I'd like toremind women that just because
there's a desired difference,which there is in most marriages
one way or another, that doesnot mean that you are low libido
.
It just means that there's adifference in your spontaneous
(31:17):
libidos and frequency preference, and that's something you two
can manage together.
I think that's a really commonone women feeling pressure to
have sex as often as theirhusband would desire it.
But there's also plenty ofinstances of women having higher
spontaneous desire and theirhusband's not that interested,
(31:38):
and then they feel like what'swrong with me?
Aren't I beautiful?
Doesn't he love me?
You know, is there somethingelse?
And this is also just anopportunity for education and
understanding that both men andwomen have things that get us
interested and in the mood andthings that dampen our libido
stress, mental health, you know,depression, anxiety, really
(32:01):
strict upbringing where you feltlike you could never do
anything right.
That can really be somethingthat could result in a man as an
adult feeling much morehesitant about initiating
lovemaking if you have supercritical parents.
Yeah, so those are some commonissues Pain during intercourse
(32:22):
and I always like to remindwomen they can find help with
pelvic floor physical therapy aswell but also our mindset about
sex and the practices we do.
You know how we manage ourrelationship and our mind and
our conversations.
That can be a big difficulty.
(32:43):
With orgasm or inability toexperience orgasm is another
common problem.
And then, interestingly, thereare also plenty of women who are
orgasming just fine, but theydon't like sex because they
don't feel that emotionalconnection with their husband.
They feel like it's just thisphysical, mechanical thing and
(33:04):
we don't feel really close witheach other.
So that's another issue.
And then a lot of women strugglewith just feeling like sex is
dirty and yucky and you knowthey just feel icky about it.
So that's something I try tohelp with as well.
When we just talk about God'splan and every part of our body
(33:27):
is good, and you know, when wethink about eating, you could
think about eating them the sameway too.
You know you chew and ourmouths make saliva and then we
have to do the dishes afterwardsand wipe stuff off the plates
and you know, but most of usdon't think of as eating, as
icky.
Right, we've developed thesepositive associations around
(33:48):
eating and it's possible alsofor women to retrain how they
think about lovemaking and formpositive associations and
beliefs around it as well.
Sheila Nonato (34:01):
So this negative sort of association or
experience, I guess, with sex,is that related to again, like
we're going back to sort of pornand the OnlyFans kind of
culture and body image?
Are they sort of feelingself-conscious or just having an
unhealthy mindset about, aboutsex?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (34:23):
It could well be from porn culture or just
thinking like well, you know,the only women who are sexy are
women in porn, or women who areobjectifying themselves, and I'm
a good woman and so I don't dostuff like that, you know.
So that could be really.
That could be part of it.
A lot of it could come from"purity culture as well, where
(34:45):
there's a lot of emphasis placedon the woman, the girl, the
teenager, young woman being theone to hold the boundaries, on
saving sex for marriage, onpushing back her boyfriend's
advances and on not experiencingdesire herself.
And it's so hard for so manywomen to flip the switch from
(35:08):
thinking of sex as just sinfuland bad all the time through
growing up to then on yourwedding day, all of a sudden
it's what you do and it's good.
It's hard to kind of navigate,you know crossing into that
threshold.
So you know, or if we wereraised and our parents always
said like, oh, you know you'redirty down there, or that's
(35:31):
yucky right.
Or not having you know propernames for your private parts,
you pick up that sense that like, ooh, there's something
offensive about my body or mybody's yucky right.
So it can be lots of differentfactors that go into.
You know, feeling icky aboutsex, but again, sheila, what you
(35:51):
started off the conversationwith, with talking about the
song of songs, I think you cango to the scripture and read the
Song of Songs and see how thebride and the bridegroom there
are both very in touch with thebeauty of sexuality, both the
bride and the bridegroom.
Their words are both very sexyand erotic and glorifying God,
(36:16):
but also honouring andrespecting each other and not
squeamish about.
You know, there is poeticlanguage and imagery there.
The body parts aren't namedexplicitly, but they're
definitely suggested, and theactions of lovemaking are
definitely suggested there.
If you know how to interpretmetaphor, you will see them
(36:37):
really clearly, and then you cansee oh right, here in the Bible
, here is a woman who is, youknow, is unafraid to be sexy and
sexual and invite her belovedinto an embrace, and she
actually uses her voice in theSong of Songs more than the
bridegroom does himself.
(36:57):
She has more words there thanhe does.
Who's really surprised, thoughyou know, that the woman has
more words than the man.
But that can be a reallyhealing experience is to
prayerfully, with Jesus, readthrough the Song of Songs and
realize oh, god gives mepermission and, you know,
affirms the goodness ofsexuality.
And it's not yucky, it'sactually really beautiful it's.
(37:20):
You know, it's mankind that hasdistorted it and made it into
this objectifying thing, but inits original goodness it's
beautiful beautiful.
Sheila Nonato (37:40):
So it's okay to feel pleasure and joy with your
husband, because it's what Godhad intended and what God had
made for both men and women, andit is Holy and life-giving.
And I'm also curious.
So in the Catholic teaching,sex is also, there's a sort of a
fruitful end to it children.
So can you have sex without theintention of children, or is
(38:05):
that not allowed?
Can you help us?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (38:09):
Well, the Church has given us such clear,
good teaching in Humanae Vitaeand then that's reemphasized,
reiterated in the Catechism ofthe Catholic Church, that having
sex is good and these are nobleand worthy actions between
husband and wife.
And the pleasure?
That Catechism?
(38:30):
I believe it's paragraph 2361.
I'll have to go back and check,but there is a in the section
on sexuality in the Catechism.
It does say that the CreatorHimself endowed the generative
function with pleasure andspouses do nothing wrong in
seeking this pleasure.
And it says spouses, not justmen or women alone, but like
(38:52):
together, husband and wife.
Both this pleasure is for bothof them, or women alone, but
like together, husband and wife.
Both this pleasure is for bothof them.
And also, exercisingresponsible parenthood can mean
generously welcoming all thechildren.
You know that being open toraising a large family and
responsible parenthood couldalso mean discerning that now is
(39:15):
not the best time for us towelcome a new child because of
health or psychological oreconomic or social reasons.
The C hurch leaves it quitebroad.
If you read Humanae Vitae youknow there's lots of different
kinds of reasons that aresuggested where husband and wife
might discern it's best to waiton having kids and it's okay
(39:38):
for them to still have sex inthose times, just as long as
they don't do anything before,during or after making love to
purposely block fertility,because sex has the procreative
and unitive functionsintrinsically integrated.
They are, you know, thestructure of making love in a
(40:00):
way that's life-giving, is theway also that is fully unitive
for husband and wife.
If the husband's climax isinside the wife and during their
embrace, that is, you know, acomplete, total self-gift for
both of them.
That is the kind of action thatcould result in a child.
But you could also, you know,do that and make love using
(40:25):
natural family planning toobserve the wife's signs of
fertility and infertility andchoose to make love when the
wife isn't fertile during hercycle.
That is still, you know, renewal.
It's good because renewing yourmarriage bond and increasing,
you know, your gratitude andaffection and closeness to each
other or it should be ideally.
(40:46):
But you can make love withouthaving the express purpose of
trying to conceive a childduring that time and it's
totally okay to use of trying toconceive a child during that
time and it's totally okay touse natural family planning as a
means to space children.
.
And a great way to think aboutthis is think of if you want
$100.
There's lots of good reasonsfor wanting $100.
Maybe you want to pay kidssports registration fees, or you
(41:10):
need some new clothes orwhatever.
Totally fine to want $100.
You could get $100 in a bad way.
You could take someone else'smoney or rob a bank right, or
earn money in some fat way whereyou're tricking people right.
That would be an illicit way,an immoral way to get $100.
(41:30):
But you could also, each timeyou go to the grocery store, buy
cheaper items for what you needand, you know, save money until
you've saved up $100.
You could purposely, you know,not buy some new thing that you
don't really need, but it wouldjust be kind of a nice to have
you refrain from buying it untilyou've saved up $100.
(41:53):
That's more like using naturalfamily planning, because natural
family planning is justrefraining from making love
during the fertile period.
So I hope that's helpful forsome people.
Sheila Nonato (42:03):
Okay, so yeah, just to be clear.
So contraception, we're nottalking about contraception,
we're talking about naturalfamily planning and it's all
within sort of the guidelines ofwhat the church has given us.
Is there like, I don't know, isthere a?
I don't know?
Is there like a minimum and amaximum amount of yeah, how many
(42:25):
times can you make love?
I don't know, is there such athing?
Dr. Sarah Bartel (42:29):
Yeah, well, great, a lot of people are
wondering about that and beforeI answer that, I just want to
follow up to the discussionabout artificial contraception.
Yes, of course People think well, the pull-out method.
If the husband, you know, justpulls out before his pregnancy,
then there's nothing artificialabout that.
We're not using a device or apill or anything.
(42:49):
That is doing somethingpurposely, you know.
That actually is contraception,also Pretty ineffective.
But that's the list.
So just keep an individualbeing oh, it's natural, so it's
okay, it's not okay.
So frequency and minimum ormaximum times couples are
(43:12):
totally free to decide whatworks best for them in their
marriage.
The only minimum we have is thatif you want to have grounds for
annulment if you've never madelove ever, then that marriage
hasn't been consummated and soyou can apply for an annulment
on the grounds that marriage hasnever been consummated.
So I guess if we look at that,then we'll say, okay, minimum,
(43:35):
at least once, right, ever inyour marriage.
But couples are really free.
There are some couples who feelboth really great about making
love once or twice a year, likeon their anniversary or birthday
, or quarterly, every two orthree months.
They're on the other end of thespectrum.
A Catholic coach that I knowsaid that one time she was
(43:58):
coaching a client of hers whowas having a real struggle
because in her marriage with herhusband.
They had to go down from havingsex three times a day to just
once a day.
Can you imagine?
I know I feel like I might needan ice pack just thinking about
that, but for them once a daywas a really reduced frequency.
So the Church, Rome, has notspoken.
(44:20):
You know there is no guidanceor you know minimum or maximum
anywhere.
What Sheila Gregoire, who is, asI mentioned she's this
Protestant Christian author inher informal surveys these are
not peer-reviewed double-blindstudies or you know, they're not
like sociological science, butjust more informal studies she
(44:41):
has found that the couples whoreport that they feel really
happy and close and good intheir marriages are also often
the couples that are making loveat least once a week.
And I would say look at that onan average over the course of a
month, because with NaturalFamily Planning, or kid
illnesses or travel or whatnot,you know, maybe let's shoot for
about four times a month, butyou get to decide.
(45:03):
I've talked to other couples,another wife that I know in a
Catholic business women's groupthat I'm in, and she said she
and her husband, you know it'sonce a month and that is great
for both of them and you knowthey're really busy, they're
business owners, they have, youknow, an active family, so once
a month is what's working forthem.
And then, you know, I also hearfrom women in marriages where
(45:28):
it's like four or five times aweek.
You really get to decide, but Ithink either way, it's important
to talk with your husband andeach of you share, like ideally,
what would my ideal frequencybe if I just sat down and
thought about it?
Would it be every other week?
Would it be once a week?
Would it be, you know, two orthree times a month?
Would it be five times a week?
You share your number, ask himto share his, and then a really
(45:52):
nice, mature, loving way to goforward would be, then, to meet
in the middle somewhere and makea plan for scheduling and, you
know, or having as a goal tomake love at the frequency
that's somewhere in the middlebetween both of your preference.
Sheila Nonato (46:12):
And when you mentioned communication, good
communication is essential inany relationship.
Do women in your program, dosome of them have sort of
difficulty in initiating ormentioning you know?
Do they wait for their husband?
Is this a frustration forhusbands that the women wait?
How do we sort of bridge thegap?
If it is, thank you for joiningus.
Outro (46:34):
Join us next time when Dr .
Sarah Bertal answers thisquestion of how to improve
communication in marriage for ahappy, holy and lasting marriage
.
Thank you and God bless.
Thank you for listening to theVeil and Armour podcast.
Co-host (47:01):
I invite you to share this with another Catholic Mom
today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's Be Brave, let's Be Boldand Be Blessed together.
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