February 20, 2025 • 47 mins
This podcast is now six! And to celebrate, some post-Renaissance Disney.
If Atlantis really existed, no one wrote about it until Plato, who did so 9,000 years after its destruction. Atlantis: The Lost Empire draws from Plato's original Atlantis myth, as well as classic adventures stories like Jules Verne’s Journey to the Centre of the Earth (1864) and Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas (1870), Victorian-era adventure fiction and steampunk, various New Age interpretations of Atlantis, and elements from Edgar Cayce's "readings" about Atlantis.
This movie's interpretation of the Atlantis myth is firmly rooted in a technologically advanced civilization, with its own language (a language that only Milo Thatch can read!), and visually inspired by Hellboy creator Mike Mignola; everything about Atlantis: The Lost Empire was huge, in both style and scope.
It remains one of the most beautiful and epic movies of Disney’s animated back catalogue. Despite its lacklustre box office, it's grown into a true cult classic and fan favourite in the years since its release, but it has also been accused of white saviour tropes, clichéd characters and plagiarism...
I would love to hear your thoughts on Atlantis: The Lost Empire !
Verbal Diorama is now an award-winning podcast! I won the Best Movie Podcast in the inaugural Ear Worthy Independent Podcast Awards recently. I am beyond thrilled, and hugely grateful to the Ear Worthy team. It means so much to me to be recognised by a fellow indie outlet, and congratulations to all the other winners!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:57):
Hi, everyone. I'm Em andwelcome to verbal diorama, episode
289, Atlantis, the LostEmpire. This is the podcast all about
the history and legacy ofmovies, you know and movies you don't
that knows the differencebetween the ciphers for R and C.
As always, a huge welcome toVerbal Diorama. Whether you're a
brand new listener, whetheryou're a regular returning listener,
(02:18):
welcome back. If you are,thank you for being here. Thank you
for choosing to listen to thispodcast. I am, as always, so happy
to have you here for thehistory and legacy of Atlantis, the
Lost Empire. And this is thefinal episode of animation season.
It's also the final episode ofthe three episode birthday extravaganza
(02:38):
for Verbal Diorama. BecauseVerbal Diorama is now six years old,
this podcast started inFebruary of 2019. Every year I do
animation season and everyyear for the anniversary of this
podcast I get to talk aboutanimated movies. And this time around
I wanted to look at Disney,undoubtedly the biggest animation
(03:00):
studio in the world, and Iwanted to look at the Renaissance
era, but specifically preRenaissance, the actual Renaissance
and post Renaissance andAtlantis falls very much into that
post Renaissance era. As Imentioned, this is Animation Season
2025. This is the finalepisode of Animation Season 2025.
(03:23):
It wasn't going to be thefinal episode. However, I have ever
so slightly overdone it and Ihave actually ran out of time to
do another episode. But I'mgoing to try and plan the episode
in in a few months time. Sodon't worry. There will be another
animated movie coming onVerbal Diorama very soon and it is
an absolutely outstandingmovie as well. I just couldn't quite
(03:46):
fit it in because as it turnsout, having a podcast and trying
to do three episodes to bereleased in a one week period when
you don't take any time offwork to do them is really hard. So.
So yeah, I've had tounfortunately finish animation season
a little bit earlier, buthopefully finishing it in style.
(04:08):
This is the fifth annualanimation season and it's just a
huge celebration of everythingto do with animation from all the
animation studios that youknow and the ones that you don't
as well. Animation, it's notjust for children. I think this movie
proves that animation is not agenre, Animation is just an incredible
(04:29):
art form. And Animation Seasonis here to highlight those incredible
animated films that you mayhave discounted for whatever reason,
but you really shouldn't bediscounting movies just because they're
animated. As I mentioned, thispodcast is now six years old. And
just a huge thank you toeveryone who has supported this podcast
(04:50):
over the last six years whohas supported me doing this podcast
over the last six years. Thispodcast is genuinely one of the biggest
joys of my life. And beingable to go on this podcast, to produce
this podcast, to researchstuff for this podcast genuinely
brings me so much joy. Andconsidering I've been doing it for
(05:11):
six years, you'd think I'd bepretty tired of it by now, but I'm
actually not. I. I genuinelylove everything that I do for this
podcast and I am so gratefulfor you listening to this podcast.
Even if this is your firstepisode, hopefully you'll want to
listen to some others. Butfrom the bottom of my heart, thank
you for supporting me forsupporting this podcast for the last
(05:33):
six years and hopefully foranother six years. I'LL still be
here. And I'll still betalking about the histories and legacies
of the movies. That are justmiracles and fascinating and wonderful.
And Atlantis, the Lost Empireticks all of those boxes for me.
The Disney renaissanceofficially ended in 1999. With Tarzan,
(05:55):
Fantasia 2000, Dinosaur andthe Emperor's New Groove followed.
I'm especially fond of theEmperor's New Groove. I've done an
episode on that. This episode,Owned at 90, that is also a fascinating
story. But the start of thenew millennium was a traditional
time for Disney. An attempt todo something different, to broaden
its horizons. And to do amovie on one of the most famous lost
(06:18):
civilizations of all time.From last episode's myth of Hercules.
Now to the myth of Atlantis.Or is it a myth? Here's the trailer
for Atlantis, the Lost Empire.
(09:22):
In 1914, young linguist orphanMilo Thatch, grandson of Thaddeus
Thatch, buries himself inbooks trying to unlock the secret
to the destruction ofAtlantis. Although his theories are
ridiculed by his colleagues.He's persistent in his dreams of
one day discovering the lostisle. His dreams are realized when
he's given a spot in anexpedition financed by a friend of
(09:45):
his grandfather. To go insearch of Atlantis. Following Milo's
guide, the Shepherd's Journal.The intrepid crew find Atlantis.
And a whole indigenouspopulation. Who live by powerful
crystal energy. But somemembers of the crew want to steal
the powerful crystal energyfor themselves. Let's run through
the cast of this movie. Wehave Michael J. Fox as Milo Thatch,
(10:08):
James Garner as CommanderRourke Kreesommer as Keeda, Don Novello
as Vinnie, Phil Morris asSweet Claudia Christian as Helga,
Jacqueline Obradors as Audrey,Florence Stanley as Packard, John
Mahoney as Preston B.Whitmore, Jim Varney as Cookie, Corey
(10:30):
Burton as Mole and LeonardNimoy as Kashikim, the King of Atlantis
Atlantis the Lost Empire has ascreenplay by Tab Murphy, a story
by Kirk Wise, Gary Trousdale,Joss Whedon, Bruce Zabel, Jackie
Zabel and Tab Murphy, and wasdirected by Gary Trousdale and Kirk
(10:50):
Wise. If Atlantis reallyexisted, no one wrote about it until
Plato, who did so 9,000 yearsafter its destruction. Which does
beg the question of why no oneelse wrote about Atlantis. Plato's
Atlantis myth appears in twoof his dialogues, Tinius and crotius,
(11:10):
written around 360 BC.According to Plato, Atlantis was
a powerful island civilizationbeyond the pillars of Hercules, the
modern Strait of Gibraltar.Originally created by Poseidon, who
fell in love with a mortalwoman named Cleto, Atlantis was rich
in natural resources,including a precious metal called
(11:31):
orichalcum. It was highlyadvanced and protected by massive
walls plated with bronze, tinand orichalcum. The Atlantean Empire
attempted to conquer Europeand Asia. Athens then led the resistance
against Atlantis and succeededin defeating them. Shortly afterward,
a natural disaster struckAtlantis with floods and earthquakes
(11:53):
and the island sank into thesea in a single day and night. Atlantis
the Lost Empire draws fromPlato's original Atlantis myth as
well as classic adventurestories like Jules Verne's Journey
to the center of the Earthfrom 1864 and 20,000 Leagues under
the Sea from 1870, as well asVictorian era adventure fiction and
(12:13):
steampunk, various New Ageinterpretations of Atlantis and elements
from Edgar Cayce's readingsabout Atlantis. I'm going to come
back to Edgar Cayce in alittle bit. The creation of Atlantis
the Lost Empire first startedover a lunch in 1996 with Don Hahn,
Gary Trousdale, Kirk Wise andTad Murphy. Having recently completed
(12:36):
the Hunchback of Notre Dameand wanting to do something new with
the Hunchback, approved. Theidea was to draw inspiration from
Jules Verne's Journey to thecenter of the Earth and 20,000 Leagues
under the Sea, set around thelegendary city of Atlantis, Having
a movie set within anAdventureland setting rather than
a Fantasyland setting, withAdventureland and Fantasyland both
(12:58):
being Disney theme Park areas.The team were keen to produce an
action heavy animated film setin the mythological lost city of
Atlantis, which Verne's workhad briefly touched upon. Trousdale
soon approached Disneychairman and CEO Michael Eisner with
the pitch for Atlantis, theLost Empire. Eisner was a big supporter
of Wise and Trousdale. Theydirected Beauty and the Beast and
(13:21):
at the time Eisner was feudingwith Roy E. Disney, Watts nephew
and a powerful member of theboard for control of the company.
Executive Peter Schneider, thepresident of Walt Disney Feature
Animation and ThomasSchumacher, Disney Studios President,
were focusing more of theirattention on Disney Theatrical, the
stage play and musicalsdivisions, basically the Broadway
(13:44):
versions. Because of all ofthese factors, Atlantis didn't just
get an immediate green light,but senior management trusted Trousdale
and Wise to do what theyneeded to do. Eisner was distracted
and this would lead to verylittle executive medley. Trousdale
and Wise were in agreementthat the film they were making would
(14:05):
not be musical. Eisner justhappened to be the executive at Paramount
who'd given the green light toa little movie called Raiders at
the Lost Ark and he wanted asimilar action adventure vibe for
the Lost Empire. Famously, theproduction crew wore T shirts to
work that read Atlantis. Fewersongs, more explosions. Trousdale
(14:26):
and Wise disliked that thecity of Atlantis was often portrayed
as just a mess of collapsedcolumns underwater. So they extensively
investigated the legend ofAtlantis from various sources in
order to create a movie thatthoroughly examined the civilization.
Trousdale and Wise chose toportray the city as a magnificent
futuristic metropolis withcutting edge technology driven by
(14:49):
the heart of Atlantis, apowerful crystal that also served
as the city's protector. Thiswas partially inspired by the writings
of late 19th centuryClairvoyant Edgar Cayce, with the
magical crystal also givingthe city's residents longevity and
healing abilities. Cayce was aself proclaimed psychic who gave
numerous readings aboutAtlantis while in trance states.
(15:12):
He described Atlanteans usingpowerful crystals for energy and
technology as well as havinghealing and life extending properties.
He spoke of Atlantis havingadvanced technology beyond what existed
in his time. The film depictsAtlantis as having highly advanced
technology including flyingvehicles and energy based weapons
(15:32):
powered by the crystal energy.Casey also described Atlantis being
destroyed due to the misuse ofits crystal technology. The film's
backstory involves Atlantisbeing submerged due to a catastrophic
event related to crystalpower. You'll notice I mentioned
the name Joss Whedon when Iwas mentioning the story credits
(15:52):
and Joss Whedon is creditedfor the story, but his involvement
was actually non existent. Hehad been briefly involved with a
Marco Polo musical when heworked at Disney Animation, and elements
of his work includedreferences to Atlantis. The final
film contains none of Whedon'swork, but he received a credit anyway,
(16:15):
mostly due to the advice ofDisney's legal team. Tab Murphy wrote
the screenplay, set in 1914,which focused on Milo Sach, a young,
ambitious linguist andcartographer at the Smithsonian Institute
who thinks he's discovered theway to Atlantis. Milo teams up with
an eccentric millionaire andfriend of his late grandfather who
(16:36):
offers to finance the missionand send a team of experts to help
Milo in his ambitious quest.After the museum's board rejects
his proposed mission, Charles,Dale and Wise insisted on developing
a whole spoken and writtenlanguage for the Atlanteans in an
effort to accurately portrayAtlantis as its own distinct civilization.
They hired Mark Akrund, anAmerican linguist who created the
(17:00):
Klingon language for the StarTrek TV series and its follow up
movies. For the Atlanteanlanguage, Okrand used an Indo European
word stock with a uniquegrammatical framework in order to
generate words that soundedcompletely different from any language
that was known to exist.Okrand spent months developing the
spoken language.Coincidentally, Leonard Nimoy also
(17:22):
stars in this movie, andobviously he's most famous for playing
Spock in Star Trek. JohnEmerson created the written Atlantean
language by drawing hundredsof random drawings of individual
letters from which thefilmmakers selected the ones that
best reflected their ownconcept for the language in order
to illustrate the Atlantean'sintimate ties to the land and ocean.
(17:44):
The finished patternstypically included swirling lines
and dots. All of the text wasboustropheden, meaning the first
line should be read from leftto right, the second from right to
left, and so on. The purposeof this continuous zigzag design
was to mimic the natural flowof water. And of course, a major
plot point in the movie isthat the Atlanteans have forgotten
(18:06):
to read their own language,and the only person who can is Milo
Thatch. The filmmakers wantedAtlantis, the Lost Empire, to have
a distinct look and feel fromwhat came before it. The primary
source of inspiration for Wiseand Trousdale was the comic book
artwork of Hellboy creatorMike Mignola. They were inspired
by the Hercules team'sexperience working with renowned
(18:29):
illustrator Gerald Scarfe, andthen hired Mignola to contribute
character designs, work ondesign features like the Atlantean
temples, and work on storyideas, including the creation of
steampunk elements andmechanical flying fish machines.
For the film's Conclusion.Every visual element of the final
film reflected Mignola'sunique style, with sharp angular
(18:52):
edges and deep lines, whichmirrored the artwork of comic books.
To further differentiate themovie from anything that had come
before it, they had the ideato film in CinemaScope 70mm widescreen
format. Executives wereinitially concerned about the required
paper size because the formatincreased the cost of notable Disney
(19:13):
flops, Sleeping Beauty and theBlue Cauldron to viewing a test sequence
in the 70 mm format. Eisnerapproved the change in production
method from here. Charlestonand Weiss were inspired by filmmakers
who had used the format in thepast, particularly Steven Spielberg,
David Lean and Akira Kurosawa,with Spielberg's Raiders of the Lost
(19:33):
Ark consistently used as areference point for the production
team. The animators who workedon Sleeping Beauty were sketching
on bed sheet sized paper, andthere were discussions about relocating
the whole Atlantis crew to anew facility with dedicated larger
workstations. However, thiswould have cost a fortune, so a compromise
(19:53):
was made. The figures andbackgrounds would be smaller and
it would therefore fit on anormal sized piece of paper, which
was effective because of howstylized it all was. Everything about
Atlantis the Lost Empire,though, was huge in style and scope.
The first two acts werestoryboarded and ran over two hours.
(20:13):
A number of characters wereremoved from the script, including
a phony mystic that joins themon the journey, Mr. Whitmore's nephew
and Milo's pet rat, Plato.There goes the cute animal sidekick.
A number of action sequencesand monster attacks were dramatically
pared down, with the journeyto Atlantis becoming shorter and
less eventful and the parts inAtlantis receiving more focus. But
(20:36):
with this removal of hugechunks of the movie came a reduction
in budget, which led to toughchoices on what to focus their attention
on and what to skimp on. Alavish original prologue featuring
a group of Vikings using thesame ancient manuscript to find Atlantis
cost $5 million to produce. Itwas fully animated and color timed,
(20:59):
but late in the productionthey realized it wasn't working.
That prologue was alsoscrapped and changed up for the destruction
of Atlantis to show why it'snow below the water and to introduce
Keda. Artistic supervisor forstory, John Sanford, pitched the
new idea to Don Hard and Wise,and Trousdale agreed the new idea
was better. It wasstoryboarded overnight and pitched
(21:21):
to Disney executives the nextday. But this was still a Disney
movie, and as the productionscaled back, so did some of the edge.
In the original screenplay,there's still a character smoking,
but this was before Disneyremoved smoking from all productions.
But characters still brandishguns and there are still gunfights.
Then during production,Columbine happened. At the time,
(21:45):
it was the second most fatalschool shooting in American history.
It's now the sixth. Afterthis, questions were asked on depiction
of guns or gunplay in filmsand TV shows. Episodes of TV shows
containing guns in schools waspostponed, such as an episode of
Buffy called Earshot, andDisney decided to also scale the
guns back in Atlantis inresponse to the massacre. When it
(22:08):
came to casting, Michael J.Fox had the choice to star in Atlantis
or Titan ae. Titan AE beingthe very first episode of this podcast,
of course. So Fox gave thechoice to his young son, who chose
Atlantis. Kree Summer, aprolific voice actor at the time,
was cast as Kida. Herpersonality and demeanor were also
(22:29):
written into how Keeda reactsto Milo. And is Kida actually the
first black Disney princess?The fans certainly think so. The
rest of the cast is asracially diverse as the crew of the
Ulysses, which is actuallyrefreshing to see in an early 2000s
Disney movie. It feels likesome actual thought has not only
been put into the diversity ofthe crew on screen, but also ensuring
(22:52):
that those different racialbackgrounds are represented off screen
too. Jim Varney, who voicedCookie, died of lung cancer in February
2000 and so never saw thefinished film. Supplementary dialogue
for Cookie was recorded byStephen Barr. Atlantis, the Lost
Empire utilized more than 350animators, artists and technicians
(23:13):
at its peak. In order tomaintain consistency in the look,
the film used the services ofWalt Disney Feature Animation in
Burbank, California, DisneyFeature Animation, Florida, and Disney
Animation, France. Designswere either faxed, couriered or shared
digitally between the threestudios. The movie would eventually
feature over 360 digitaleffects shots which took more than
(23:37):
three years to create andfeatured more computer generated
imagery than any other Disneyanimated feature film to date. Computer
software was used to smoothlyintegrate 3D created objects and
artwork with the 2D animation,especially in scenes involving the
Ulysses submarine. Thedirectors also made use of a revolutionary
virtual camera which made itpossible for the camera to move fluidly
(24:00):
through a digital wireframeset while post production added details
and background. Only twosequences in Atlantis, the Lost Empire
have no 3D elements in onesequence. Milo, who is obviously
a hand drawn character, ischased through lava tubes that lead
to Atlantis. Backgroundpainters used deep canvas software
(24:21):
to paint the tubes. However,the lava following Milo through the
tubes was drawn by hand. Inthe effects department, one of the
most complex effects createddigitally was the crystal, the power
source for Atlantis, whichlooks like a tube of light surrounded
by rotating stone shields.There were three levels of different
color membranes emitting athree dimensional kind of light.
(24:43):
Animating these crystalstraditionally would have been impossible
to do. The Leviathan had 100moving parts and animating it used
traditional techniques Adaptedfor digital 3D creation. The backgrounds
for these shots were painteddigitally. The Leviathan creature,
the main submarine and themini subs are all 3D models. The
3D team rendered tens ofthousands of layers to create individual
(25:07):
pieces of art for the lines,tone and paint. The film's final
shot, a pull out shotreminiscent of the closing shot in
the Hunchback of Notre Dame,which the animators initially felt
was too straightforward andwanted to elaborate on, begins with
a close up of Milo drawn on a40.5 centimeter piece of paper. It
(25:28):
then pulls out to revealAtlantis in all its splendor. And
this is drawn on a massive45-720-centimeter piece of paper.
It's often cited as the mostdifficult shot in Disney's history.
At the same time, Aladdin andHercules directors Ron Clements and
John Muska were finallygetting to work on their passion
(25:50):
project, Treasure Planet,which was due out the following year
after Atlantis the LostEmpire. Treasure Planet and Atlantis
share similar aesthetics, amix of hand drawn animation and cutting
edge CG animation as well as asteampunk style. It was another new
avenue for Disney animationand everyone was waiting with bated
(26:10):
breath to see how Atlantis theLost Empire would be received. Speaking
of new avenues. Or at leastthe opposite of new avenues because
this is nothing new, it's timefor the obligature Keanu reference
of this episode. And this is apart of the podcast where I try and
link every movie that Ifeature with Keanu Reeves for no
reason other than he is thebest of men. And originally I thought
(26:33):
there was no way I would beable to link Keanu Reeves to Atlantis
Thanos Empire. Until I googledKeanu Atlantis thinking something's
gotta be there. And it wasliterally straight away. The Keanu
Reeves is associated with thecharacter B from the comic book Berserker,
(26:54):
and the character Bee is animmortal warrior who protects Atlantis,
theoretically the same versionof Atlantis that Mino and the team
visit in this movie. So thatis the easiest and best and most
brilliant way that I can linkKeanu Reeves to Atlantis the Lost
Empire. So while Kirk Wise andGary Trousdale agreed that Atlantis
(27:16):
the Lost Empire would not be amusical, the studio's marketing department
insisted that at least onesong be featured during the film's
end credits. And this wasmostly to adhere to tradition they
enlisted Oscar nominatedsongwriter Diane Warren to write
a track entitled where theDream Takes yous and Grammy Award
(27:36):
winning singer Mhi'ya washired to record the song. Maya was
riding on a bit of a high atthe time, having just been part of
the Lady Marmaladecollaboration with Pink, Christina
Aguilera, Lil Kim and MissyElliot. The idea being that where
the Dream Takes you wouldbolster Maya's career the same way
Christina Aguilera's had beenwhen she recorded the song Reflection
(28:00):
for Mulan in 1990. And ifyou're wondering why you've never
heard of where the Dream Takesyou, it's because it flopped pretty
hard, both commercially andcritically Transferred and wise approached
composer James Newton Howard,who'd recently finished Dinosaur
score for the movie'sinstrumental score. Since there would
(28:20):
be no dialogue in a number ofthe film's pivotal scenes, Howard
collaborated closely with thedirectors to create a moving soundtrack
that reflected the emotionalmeaning of each scene. In order to
create distinct musical themesfor the surface world and Atlantis,
Newton Howard used anIndonesian orchestral style for the
Atlantean theme. Now I'vementioned this was obviously a completely
(28:43):
new avenue for Disney to godown. This was a completely new type
of movie. There would be nosongs. It would have a more grown
up feel than other Disneyanimated movies. And in the fledgling
Internet era, Disney did tryto utilize Internet marketing for
Atlantis, including a websitewith mini games, three mobile phone
(29:05):
networks for mobile games.McDonald's also did the traditional
Happy Meal promotions withtoys elsewhere at Disney, though
plans were afoot. Big plans.They had already envisioned Atlantis
as an Adventureland stylemovie taking inspiration from Disney's
theme parks. But within theDisney theme park management, there
(29:26):
were plans to redo Submarinevoyage at Disneyland California,
an attraction which alreadypaid homage to 20,000 Leagues under
the Sea, an attraction thathad opened in 1959 itself. Inspiration
for Atlantis Summary Voyageclosed in July 1998 and the plans
to refresh this attractionwith an upcoming feature film made
(29:50):
sense. Rebrand it withDisney's next big animated adventure.
Disney saw franchise materialfor Atlantis. An Atlantean encounter,
as it was set to be known, wasgoing to be narrated by Preston B.
Whitmore, have an encounterwith the Leviathan, and other characters
would come over the intercomas the ride continued. The plans
(30:12):
were to open the attraction in2003. However, that never happened.
What else happened in 2003?Finding Nemo came out and was a huge
hit. So this particularattraction is now Finding Nemo's
Submarine Voyage. That wasn'tthe only project planned for Disney
Parks though also planned wasFire Mountain, the latest mountain
(30:36):
to add to Space Mountains,Splash Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain
Railroad and ExpeditionEverest Forbidden Mountain. This
attraction for Walt DisneyWorld's Magic Kingdom in Florida
planned an epic roller coasterwhere guests hung like a hand glider,
emulating the final part ofthe movie, taking you through an
exploding volcano. FireMountain had originally been planned
(30:58):
20,000 leagues under the Seabut was scrapped and again, having
a brand new ride for Disney'sbrand new big movie made a lot of
sense at the time. But justlike Atlantis itself, theme park
ride plans also justdisappeared, becoming myths in their
own lore. Atlantis the LostEmpire had its world premiere at
(31:19):
Disney's El Capitan Theatre inHollywood on 3 June 2001. Destination
Atlantis was on display at thepremiere, featuring behind the scenes
props from the film andinformation of the legend of Atlantis
with video games, displays,laser tag and other attractions.
The Aquarium of the Pacificloaned a variety of fish for display
(31:40):
within the attraction andlimited release, then followed in
New York City and Los Angeleson 8 June 2001 with a wide release
following on 15 June 2001. Dueto its limited first week opening
in two cinemas, it opened at13th at the box office the same week
as Swordfish and Evolution.Swordfish went to number one that
(32:02):
week. Shrek was second beingout five weeks at that point. And
yes, there is a reason I'mmentioning Shrek in Atlantis. Second
week it opened wide and jumpedup to second place after brand new
release Lana Croft Tomb RaiderShrek was at third the following
week Atlantis fell to fourth,Shrek was fifth with only a few million
(32:25):
dollars in between the twomovies. The next week Lantis fell
to fifth and Shrek to sixth,this time only $87,000 between the
two in revenue. The next weekAtlantis fell to ninth, Shrek was
eighth earning $1.5 millionmore. Shrek had been out nine weeks
(32:45):
at this point to Atlantis'sfive weeks. The following week Atlantis
was out at the top 10, butShrek was not. And it's easy to blame
Shrek for the failure ofAtlantis the Lost Empire. However,
they were very differentmovies. One was very bright, very
colorful, very funny andclearly aimed at a more family market.
(33:08):
Atlantis was somethingcompletely different. Shrek was the
new kid on the block. Everyonewas talking about Shrek and it unfortunately
just pushed Atlantis the LostEmpire out of the limelight a little
bit. On his $120 millionbudget, Atlantis The Lost Empire
grossed $84.1 milliondomestically in the US and $102 million
(33:30):
internationally for a totalworldwide gross of $186.1 million,
which was a huge financialloss for Disney. In recent years,
the studio has ironically allbut buried Atlantis. It's available
on Disney, but there's nomerchandising or characters in promotional
material. It also has adisappointing 48% of rotten tomatoes,
(33:53):
with the consensus readingAtlantis provides a fast paced spectacle
but stints on such things ascharacter development and a coherent
plot. While some critics likeRoger Ebert praised the film as rousing
in an old pulp science fictionsort of way, and the New York Times
declared it a monumentaltreat, Variety called the film all
talking, no singing, nodancing, and in the end no fun, and
(34:17):
the Washington Post panned itas a new fashioned but old fangled
hash for the 74th AcademyAwards. The Academy of Motion Picture
Arts and Sciences finallyrecognized animated feature films
with a new category thanks tothe growth of animation studios like
Pixar and DreamWorks. Tenyears after beauty and the Beast
had been nominated for Bestpicture at the 64th Academy Awards,
(34:41):
Disney were presumablyconfident that Atlantis would be
in with a shot. Not only wasrival animation studio DreamWorks
Shrek the inaugural BestAnimated Feature winner, Atlantis
the Lost Empire was not evennominated for the award, which further
exacerbated its box officelosses and Disney's overall feelings
(35:02):
towards it. Atlantis deservedbetter though. In what world is Ginny
Neutron Boy Genius better thanthis? Just like the proposed attractions
for Disneyland and Walt DisneyWorld, the planned animated series,
which was going to be DisneyTelevision's answer to the X Files,
was also quietly canceled. Theseries, called Team Atlantis, was
(35:26):
going to be hugely ambitious,investigating otherworldly phenomena
and ancient cultures. Everyweek the first three episodes of
the TV series were cobbledtogether and packaged as a direct
to video sequel calledAtlantis Milo's Return, released
almost two years after theoriginal film. Now there are no other
(35:47):
sequels and there is no remakeof Atlantis the Lost Empire. However,
there is controversysurrounding Atlantis that maybe it
was a remake of something elsebecause there were a number of similarities
between Atlantis the LostEmpire and the anime series the Secret
of Blue Water, which aired in1990-1991, and this was pointed out
(36:10):
by several viewers, especiallyin story, setting and character design.
Nadia was based on a conceptby Hayao Miyazaki and Hideaki Anno,
directed by Anno, the directorof Shin Godzilla. Both Japanese and
American viewers recognizedsimilarities which were so strong
that the film's productioncompany, Gainax, was recommended
(36:31):
to sue for plagiarism. Gainaxrefused to sue citing Disney's strong
legal team and the potentialfor reprisals. The 1870 Jules Verne
novel Twenty Thousand Leaguesunder the Sea served as some inspiration
for both Atlantis and Nadia,and Kirk Wise would later say that
he'd never heard of the animeuntil long after Atlantis had completed
(36:54):
production. However, there arefar more similarities not connected
with 20,000 leagues under theSea, including the characters. Nadia
being the rightful heir to thethrone of Atlantis, just like Kira,
Gene being a spirited wideeyed adventurer just like Mino and
the magic blue crystal basedtechnology in both both start on
(37:15):
land tradition to an Americanboat before descending underwater
via submarine featuring apatriarchal captain, a blonde second
in command, and a cast ofinternational figures as well as
the crew combating a nauticalcreature. I'm not saying it's exactly
like Nadia, but I'm not notsaying that either because the evidence
(37:37):
would suggest that it is very,very similar, allegedly. Because
obviously Gainax have neverfiled any legal suit against Disney
for plagiarism. So allegedlyNadia and Atlantis are very similar.
Had Atlantis the Lost Empirebeen a box office success, it could
(37:57):
have easily revolutionizedDisney. It would have opened up a
whole new world, pun intendedfor animation, with Treasure Planet
following suit, pushing thelimits of theatrical and television
animation while taking thestudio's cherished animated production
in a daring new direction andpossibly prolonging the life of 2D
(38:18):
hand drawn animation.Unfortunately, it was a pipe dream
and that was not meant to be.But it's not all doom and gloom for
the Lost Empire. It remainsone of the most beautiful and epic
movies of Disney's animatedback catalog. It's also gained something
many Disney movies never do.Atlantis the Lost Empire has grown
(38:40):
into a true cult classic inthe years since its release. It has
a fervent fan base who adorethe movie and its lore. People cosplay
as the entire crew of theUlysses. There are fan petitions
to make Keeda an officialDisney princess, although let's be
honest, she's kinda coolerwithout that label. It has a diverse
cast and it's just unfortunatethat we never got to see more from
(39:04):
this world. The movie squeezesin the brief experimental period
between the Disney renaissanceand what is popularly referred to
as the Disney Revival, wherethe studio was experimenting with
genres and styles in the 2Danimated world world. And while there
might have been changes madeand corners cut, there is nothing
that looks or feels likeAtlantis the Lost Empire in the history
(39:27):
of Disney animation. Thefilmmakers took the lack of oversight
from Disney executives andused it to their full advantage.
Its striking visual style isgenuinely unlike anything Disney
had produced to that point oreven to this day. It's little wonder
the film has a passionate fanbase and is considered to be an underrated
cult classic. Enthusiasm forAtlantis led to a cast and crew livestream
(39:52):
reunion in 2021 for its 20thanniversary and again in 2022. If
Disney want to do live actionremakes, do it on this. This would
be a perfect live actionremake. It doesn't have songs or
a cuddly animal sidekick, it'sa true homage to pulp action adventure
(40:12):
films. And with Indiana Jonesmovie seemingly running out of steam,
it seems like the idealopportunity for Disney to embrace
Atlantis. You can fix the plotweaknesses and cliched characters,
give Kida more agency, make ita true period piece, and Disney don't
even need to bill it as a liveaction remake because the fans who
(40:33):
know will love it and thosethat don't will want to see a fun,
well made action adventure.Timothee Chalamet would make a great
Milo Thatch Tell me it's notjust me who sees it and Michael J.
Fox is retired from actingnow, but how amazing would it be
to see a little Easter egg, abook on Milo's shelf written by Michael
(40:55):
J. Fox, something to call backto Fox and how much he brings to
the character of Milo, who'swritten quite flat, but Fox brings
him to life with his alwaysenergetic performance. Similarly,
though, it's not all roses forthis movie either. This movie does
have glaring issues too, mostnotably the white savior narrative
(41:15):
and the fact that a genuinelyfascinating story of indigenous peoples
and their culture andbackground is overshadowed by the
story of the explorers and theobvious betrayal of Roark. Keda should
have been the savior of herown people. The idea that a white
American kid knew more aboutthe language than the people did
is just baffling logic. Thestory and characters is where this
(41:37):
movie just struggles. Asinteresting as Kida is, and I genuinely
think she's got huge potentialto be such a terrific character in
Disney history, even withoutbeing an official princess. I want
to know more about Atlanteanculture, the crystals, what it all
means. But what does it allmean though? Why does she start floating?
I really have no idea. Andthis movie makes no sense. Even in
(42:01):
the background. Disney werequietly retiring hand drawn animation,
making huge layoffs in theiranimation department and salary cutbacks,
but what saves this movie isthe stunning animation. Mike Mignola's
art style is something sodifferent to what came before the
Lost Empire. Like Herculesbefore it looks so unique and unusual
(42:24):
and underappreciated. It feelslike the rare Disney movie. Not made
for merchandising, not madefor toys or fast food tie ins. It
was made purely for the loveof adventure movies. It didn't cater
to children. It was made morefor teenagers and adults. It's ardent
fans love it because itexposed them to archaeology and linguistics
(42:46):
subjects. Other animated filmsjust don't even touch on Atlantis.
The Lost Empire may have itsflaws, but it's also one of Disney's
most unique treasures, like adiamond or indeed a crystal. Thank
you for listening. As always,I would love to hear your thoughts
on Atlantis, the Lost Empire.And thank you for your continued
support of this podcast. Ifyou want to get involved and help
(43:09):
this podcast, you could tellyour friends and family about this
podcast. You could leave arating or review wherever you found
this podcast. Or you can findme. I'm at Verbal Diorama on all
major social media platforms.You can like posts, you can share
posts, you can comment onposts, you can do anything you want
with posts. Or you can justsend me a message on one of the social
(43:30):
medias. But either way you canfollow Verbal Diorama. It all helps
with visibility. Now, as Imentioned, this is the final episode
of animation season. However,it is not the final episode of Verbal
Diorama. I am not quittingyet. And the next month on Verbal
Diorama is going to becelebrating International Women's
(43:51):
Day and Women's History Month.And all of the movies that I feature
in the month of March aregoing to be focused on true stories
featuring women. Or shall wesay inspired by the true stories
of women. And I'm going to bestarting with the remarkable story
of an all female unit ofwarriors who protected the African
(44:13):
kingdom of dahomey in the1800s. It is the story of the Agoji
and it is the movie the WomanKing. I am so excited to be talking
about the Woman King. I hopeyou will join me next episode for
the history and legacy of theWoman King. Now I always like to
say that this podcast is freeand it always will be free. There
(44:34):
will never be any charge tolisten to this podcast. However,
it is not free to make apodcast and I rely on some exceptionally
generous people to help fundVerbal Diorama and secure the future
of Verbal Diorama as well. Nowyou're under no obligation to join
those people. You can continueto listen for free forever. However,
(44:54):
if you enjoy what I do and youget value out of what I do, and you
want to support an indiecreator who does all of this on her
own, then you can. You can dothat in one of two ways. You can
go to verbaldiorama.com tipsand give a one off tip. Or you can
go to verbaldiorama dot compatreon and you can join the amazing
(45:14):
patrons of this podcast. Theyare Claudia, Simon, Laurel, Derek,
Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke,Michael, Scott, Brendan, Lisa, Sam,
Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas.So, Kev, Pete, Heather, Danny, Ali,
Stu, Brett, Philip M,Michelle, Zenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip
K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle andAaron. If you want to get in touch,
(45:38):
you can email verbaldioramail.com you can also fill out
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magazines and such like. Butmostly, thank you for being with
this podcast for six years.And here's to the next six. And finally.
(47:16):
Bye.
Hi, everyone. I'm Em andwelcome to verbal diorama, episode
289, Atlantis, the LostEmpire. This is the podcast all about
the history and legacy ofmovies, you know and movies you don't
that knows the differencebetween the ciphers for R and C.
As always, a huge welcome toVerbal Diorama. Whether you're a
brand new listener, whetheryou're a regular returning listener,
(02:18):
welcome back. If you are,thank you for being here. Thank you
for choosing to listen to thispodcast. I am, as always, so happy
to have you here for thehistory and legacy of Atlantis, the
Lost Empire. And this is thefinal episode of animation season.
It's also the final episode ofthe three episode birthday extravaganza
(02:38):
for Verbal Diorama. BecauseVerbal Diorama is now six years old,
this podcast started inFebruary of 2019. Every year I do
animation season and everyyear for the anniversary of this
podcast I get to talk aboutanimated movies. And this time around
I wanted to look at Disney,undoubtedly the biggest animation
(03:00):
studio in the world, and Iwanted to look at the Renaissance
era, but specifically preRenaissance, the actual Renaissance
and post Renaissance andAtlantis falls very much into that
post Renaissance era. As Imentioned, this is Animation Season
2025. This is the finalepisode of Animation Season 2025.
(03:23):
It wasn't going to be thefinal episode. However, I have ever
so slightly overdone it and Ihave actually ran out of time to
do another episode. But I'mgoing to try and plan the episode
in in a few months time. Sodon't worry. There will be another
animated movie coming onVerbal Diorama very soon and it is
an absolutely outstandingmovie as well. I just couldn't quite
(03:46):
fit it in because as it turnsout, having a podcast and trying
to do three episodes to bereleased in a one week period when
you don't take any time offwork to do them is really hard. So.
So yeah, I've had tounfortunately finish animation season
a little bit earlier, buthopefully finishing it in style.
(04:08):
This is the fifth annualanimation season and it's just a
huge celebration of everythingto do with animation from all the
animation studios that youknow and the ones that you don't
as well. Animation, it's notjust for children. I think this movie
proves that animation is not agenre, Animation is just an incredible
(04:29):
art form. And Animation Seasonis here to highlight those incredible
animated films that you mayhave discounted for whatever reason,
but you really shouldn't bediscounting movies just because they're
animated. As I mentioned, thispodcast is now six years old. And
just a huge thank you toeveryone who has supported this podcast
(04:50):
over the last six years whohas supported me doing this podcast
over the last six years. Thispodcast is genuinely one of the biggest
joys of my life. And beingable to go on this podcast, to produce
this podcast, to researchstuff for this podcast genuinely
brings me so much joy. Andconsidering I've been doing it for
(05:11):
six years, you'd think I'd bepretty tired of it by now, but I'm
actually not. I. I genuinelylove everything that I do for this
podcast and I am so gratefulfor you listening to this podcast.
Even if this is your firstepisode, hopefully you'll want to
listen to some others. Butfrom the bottom of my heart, thank
you for supporting me forsupporting this podcast for the last
(05:33):
six years and hopefully foranother six years. I'LL still be
here. And I'll still betalking about the histories and legacies
of the movies. That are justmiracles and fascinating and wonderful.
And Atlantis, the Lost Empireticks all of those boxes for me.
The Disney renaissanceofficially ended in 1999. With Tarzan,
(05:55):
Fantasia 2000, Dinosaur andthe Emperor's New Groove followed.
I'm especially fond of theEmperor's New Groove. I've done an
episode on that. This episode,Owned at 90, that is also a fascinating
story. But the start of thenew millennium was a traditional
time for Disney. An attempt todo something different, to broaden
its horizons. And to do amovie on one of the most famous lost
(06:18):
civilizations of all time.From last episode's myth of Hercules.
Now to the myth of Atlantis.Or is it a myth? Here's the trailer
for Atlantis, the Lost Empire.
(09:22):
In 1914, young linguist orphanMilo Thatch, grandson of Thaddeus
Thatch, buries himself inbooks trying to unlock the secret
to the destruction ofAtlantis. Although his theories are
ridiculed by his colleagues.He's persistent in his dreams of
one day discovering the lostisle. His dreams are realized when
he's given a spot in anexpedition financed by a friend of
(09:45):
his grandfather. To go insearch of Atlantis. Following Milo's
guide, the Shepherd's Journal.The intrepid crew find Atlantis.
And a whole indigenouspopulation. Who live by powerful
crystal energy. But somemembers of the crew want to steal
the powerful crystal energyfor themselves. Let's run through
the cast of this movie. Wehave Michael J. Fox as Milo Thatch,
(10:08):
James Garner as CommanderRourke Kreesommer as Keeda, Don Novello
as Vinnie, Phil Morris asSweet Claudia Christian as Helga,
Jacqueline Obradors as Audrey,Florence Stanley as Packard, John
Mahoney as Preston B.Whitmore, Jim Varney as Cookie, Corey
(10:30):
Burton as Mole and LeonardNimoy as Kashikim, the King of Atlantis
Atlantis the Lost Empire has ascreenplay by Tab Murphy, a story
by Kirk Wise, Gary Trousdale,Joss Whedon, Bruce Zabel, Jackie
Zabel and Tab Murphy, and wasdirected by Gary Trousdale and Kirk
(10:50):
Wise. If Atlantis reallyexisted, no one wrote about it until
Plato, who did so 9,000 yearsafter its destruction. Which does
beg the question of why no oneelse wrote about Atlantis. Plato's
Atlantis myth appears in twoof his dialogues, Tinius and crotius,
(11:10):
written around 360 BC.According to Plato, Atlantis was
a powerful island civilizationbeyond the pillars of Hercules, the
modern Strait of Gibraltar.Originally created by Poseidon, who
fell in love with a mortalwoman named Cleto, Atlantis was rich
in natural resources,including a precious metal called
(11:31):
orichalcum. It was highlyadvanced and protected by massive
walls plated with bronze, tinand orichalcum. The Atlantean Empire
attempted to conquer Europeand Asia. Athens then led the resistance
against Atlantis and succeededin defeating them. Shortly afterward,
a natural disaster struckAtlantis with floods and earthquakes
(11:53):
and the island sank into thesea in a single day and night. Atlantis
the Lost Empire draws fromPlato's original Atlantis myth as
well as classic adventurestories like Jules Verne's Journey
to the center of the Earthfrom 1864 and 20,000 Leagues under
the Sea from 1870, as well asVictorian era adventure fiction and
(12:13):
steampunk, various New Ageinterpretations of Atlantis and elements
from Edgar Cayce's readingsabout Atlantis. I'm going to come
back to Edgar Cayce in alittle bit. The creation of Atlantis
the Lost Empire first startedover a lunch in 1996 with Don Hahn,
Gary Trousdale, Kirk Wise andTad Murphy. Having recently completed
(12:36):
the Hunchback of Notre Dameand wanting to do something new with
the Hunchback, approved. Theidea was to draw inspiration from
Jules Verne's Journey to thecenter of the Earth and 20,000 Leagues
under the Sea, set around thelegendary city of Atlantis, Having
a movie set within anAdventureland setting rather than
a Fantasyland setting, withAdventureland and Fantasyland both
(12:58):
being Disney theme Park areas.The team were keen to produce an
action heavy animated film setin the mythological lost city of
Atlantis, which Verne's workhad briefly touched upon. Trousdale
soon approached Disneychairman and CEO Michael Eisner with
the pitch for Atlantis, theLost Empire. Eisner was a big supporter
of Wise and Trousdale. Theydirected Beauty and the Beast and
(13:21):
at the time Eisner was feudingwith Roy E. Disney, Watts nephew
and a powerful member of theboard for control of the company.
Executive Peter Schneider, thepresident of Walt Disney Feature
Animation and ThomasSchumacher, Disney Studios President,
were focusing more of theirattention on Disney Theatrical, the
stage play and musicalsdivisions, basically the Broadway
(13:44):
versions. Because of all ofthese factors, Atlantis didn't just
get an immediate green light,but senior management trusted Trousdale
and Wise to do what theyneeded to do. Eisner was distracted
and this would lead to verylittle executive medley. Trousdale
and Wise were in agreementthat the film they were making would
(14:05):
not be musical. Eisner justhappened to be the executive at Paramount
who'd given the green light toa little movie called Raiders at
the Lost Ark and he wanted asimilar action adventure vibe for
the Lost Empire. Famously, theproduction crew wore T shirts to
work that read Atlantis. Fewersongs, more explosions. Trousdale
(14:26):
and Wise disliked that thecity of Atlantis was often portrayed
as just a mess of collapsedcolumns underwater. So they extensively
investigated the legend ofAtlantis from various sources in
order to create a movie thatthoroughly examined the civilization.
Trousdale and Wise chose toportray the city as a magnificent
futuristic metropolis withcutting edge technology driven by
(14:49):
the heart of Atlantis, apowerful crystal that also served
as the city's protector. Thiswas partially inspired by the writings
of late 19th centuryClairvoyant Edgar Cayce, with the
magical crystal also givingthe city's residents longevity and
healing abilities. Cayce was aself proclaimed psychic who gave
numerous readings aboutAtlantis while in trance states.
(15:12):
He described Atlanteans usingpowerful crystals for energy and
technology as well as havinghealing and life extending properties.
He spoke of Atlantis havingadvanced technology beyond what existed
in his time. The film depictsAtlantis as having highly advanced
technology including flyingvehicles and energy based weapons
(15:32):
powered by the crystal energy.Casey also described Atlantis being
destroyed due to the misuse ofits crystal technology. The film's
backstory involves Atlantisbeing submerged due to a catastrophic
event related to crystalpower. You'll notice I mentioned
the name Joss Whedon when Iwas mentioning the story credits
(15:52):
and Joss Whedon is creditedfor the story, but his involvement
was actually non existent. Hehad been briefly involved with a
Marco Polo musical when heworked at Disney Animation, and elements
of his work includedreferences to Atlantis. The final
film contains none of Whedon'swork, but he received a credit anyway,
(16:15):
mostly due to the advice ofDisney's legal team. Tab Murphy wrote
the screenplay, set in 1914,which focused on Milo Sach, a young,
ambitious linguist andcartographer at the Smithsonian Institute
who thinks he's discovered theway to Atlantis. Milo teams up with
an eccentric millionaire andfriend of his late grandfather who
(16:36):
offers to finance the missionand send a team of experts to help
Milo in his ambitious quest.After the museum's board rejects
his proposed mission, Charles,Dale and Wise insisted on developing
a whole spoken and writtenlanguage for the Atlanteans in an
effort to accurately portrayAtlantis as its own distinct civilization.
They hired Mark Akrund, anAmerican linguist who created the
(17:00):
Klingon language for the StarTrek TV series and its follow up
movies. For the Atlanteanlanguage, Okrand used an Indo European
word stock with a uniquegrammatical framework in order to
generate words that soundedcompletely different from any language
that was known to exist.Okrand spent months developing the
spoken language.Coincidentally, Leonard Nimoy also
(17:22):
stars in this movie, andobviously he's most famous for playing
Spock in Star Trek. JohnEmerson created the written Atlantean
language by drawing hundredsof random drawings of individual
letters from which thefilmmakers selected the ones that
best reflected their ownconcept for the language in order
to illustrate the Atlantean'sintimate ties to the land and ocean.
(17:44):
The finished patternstypically included swirling lines
and dots. All of the text wasboustropheden, meaning the first
line should be read from leftto right, the second from right to
left, and so on. The purposeof this continuous zigzag design
was to mimic the natural flowof water. And of course, a major
plot point in the movie isthat the Atlanteans have forgotten
(18:06):
to read their own language,and the only person who can is Milo
Thatch. The filmmakers wantedAtlantis, the Lost Empire, to have
a distinct look and feel fromwhat came before it. The primary
source of inspiration for Wiseand Trousdale was the comic book
artwork of Hellboy creatorMike Mignola. They were inspired
by the Hercules team'sexperience working with renowned
(18:29):
illustrator Gerald Scarfe, andthen hired Mignola to contribute
character designs, work ondesign features like the Atlantean
temples, and work on storyideas, including the creation of
steampunk elements andmechanical flying fish machines.
For the film's Conclusion.Every visual element of the final
film reflected Mignola'sunique style, with sharp angular
(18:52):
edges and deep lines, whichmirrored the artwork of comic books.
To further differentiate themovie from anything that had come
before it, they had the ideato film in CinemaScope 70mm widescreen
format. Executives wereinitially concerned about the required
paper size because the formatincreased the cost of notable Disney
(19:13):
flops, Sleeping Beauty and theBlue Cauldron to viewing a test sequence
in the 70 mm format. Eisnerapproved the change in production
method from here. Charlestonand Weiss were inspired by filmmakers
who had used the format in thepast, particularly Steven Spielberg,
David Lean and Akira Kurosawa,with Spielberg's Raiders of the Lost
(19:33):
Ark consistently used as areference point for the production
team. The animators who workedon Sleeping Beauty were sketching
on bed sheet sized paper, andthere were discussions about relocating
the whole Atlantis crew to anew facility with dedicated larger
workstations. However, thiswould have cost a fortune, so a compromise
(19:53):
was made. The figures andbackgrounds would be smaller and
it would therefore fit on anormal sized piece of paper, which
was effective because of howstylized it all was. Everything about
Atlantis the Lost Empire,though, was huge in style and scope.
The first two acts werestoryboarded and ran over two hours.
(20:13):
A number of characters wereremoved from the script, including
a phony mystic that joins themon the journey, Mr. Whitmore's nephew
and Milo's pet rat, Plato.There goes the cute animal sidekick.
A number of action sequencesand monster attacks were dramatically
pared down, with the journeyto Atlantis becoming shorter and
less eventful and the parts inAtlantis receiving more focus. But
(20:36):
with this removal of hugechunks of the movie came a reduction
in budget, which led to toughchoices on what to focus their attention
on and what to skimp on. Alavish original prologue featuring
a group of Vikings using thesame ancient manuscript to find Atlantis
cost $5 million to produce. Itwas fully animated and color timed,
(20:59):
but late in the productionthey realized it wasn't working.
That prologue was alsoscrapped and changed up for the destruction
of Atlantis to show why it'snow below the water and to introduce
Keda. Artistic supervisor forstory, John Sanford, pitched the
new idea to Don Hard and Wise,and Trousdale agreed the new idea
was better. It wasstoryboarded overnight and pitched
(21:21):
to Disney executives the nextday. But this was still a Disney
movie, and as the productionscaled back, so did some of the edge.
In the original screenplay,there's still a character smoking,
but this was before Disneyremoved smoking from all productions.
But characters still brandishguns and there are still gunfights.
Then during production,Columbine happened. At the time,
(21:45):
it was the second most fatalschool shooting in American history.
It's now the sixth. Afterthis, questions were asked on depiction
of guns or gunplay in filmsand TV shows. Episodes of TV shows
containing guns in schools waspostponed, such as an episode of
Buffy called Earshot, andDisney decided to also scale the
guns back in Atlantis inresponse to the massacre. When it
(22:08):
came to casting, Michael J.Fox had the choice to star in Atlantis
or Titan ae. Titan AE beingthe very first episode of this podcast,
of course. So Fox gave thechoice to his young son, who chose
Atlantis. Kree Summer, aprolific voice actor at the time,
was cast as Kida. Herpersonality and demeanor were also
(22:29):
written into how Keeda reactsto Milo. And is Kida actually the
first black Disney princess?The fans certainly think so. The
rest of the cast is asracially diverse as the crew of the
Ulysses, which is actuallyrefreshing to see in an early 2000s
Disney movie. It feels likesome actual thought has not only
been put into the diversity ofthe crew on screen, but also ensuring
(22:52):
that those different racialbackgrounds are represented off screen
too. Jim Varney, who voicedCookie, died of lung cancer in February
2000 and so never saw thefinished film. Supplementary dialogue
for Cookie was recorded byStephen Barr. Atlantis, the Lost
Empire utilized more than 350animators, artists and technicians
(23:13):
at its peak. In order tomaintain consistency in the look,
the film used the services ofWalt Disney Feature Animation in
Burbank, California, DisneyFeature Animation, Florida, and Disney
Animation, France. Designswere either faxed, couriered or shared
digitally between the threestudios. The movie would eventually
feature over 360 digitaleffects shots which took more than
(23:37):
three years to create andfeatured more computer generated
imagery than any other Disneyanimated feature film to date. Computer
software was used to smoothlyintegrate 3D created objects and
artwork with the 2D animation,especially in scenes involving the
Ulysses submarine. Thedirectors also made use of a revolutionary
virtual camera which made itpossible for the camera to move fluidly
(24:00):
through a digital wireframeset while post production added details
and background. Only twosequences in Atlantis, the Lost Empire
have no 3D elements in onesequence. Milo, who is obviously
a hand drawn character, ischased through lava tubes that lead
to Atlantis. Backgroundpainters used deep canvas software
(24:21):
to paint the tubes. However,the lava following Milo through the
tubes was drawn by hand. Inthe effects department, one of the
most complex effects createddigitally was the crystal, the power
source for Atlantis, whichlooks like a tube of light surrounded
by rotating stone shields.There were three levels of different
color membranes emitting athree dimensional kind of light.
(24:43):
Animating these crystalstraditionally would have been impossible
to do. The Leviathan had 100moving parts and animating it used
traditional techniques Adaptedfor digital 3D creation. The backgrounds
for these shots were painteddigitally. The Leviathan creature,
the main submarine and themini subs are all 3D models. The
3D team rendered tens ofthousands of layers to create individual
(25:07):
pieces of art for the lines,tone and paint. The film's final
shot, a pull out shotreminiscent of the closing shot in
the Hunchback of Notre Dame,which the animators initially felt
was too straightforward andwanted to elaborate on, begins with
a close up of Milo drawn on a40.5 centimeter piece of paper. It
(25:28):
then pulls out to revealAtlantis in all its splendor. And
this is drawn on a massive45-720-centimeter piece of paper.
It's often cited as the mostdifficult shot in Disney's history.
At the same time, Aladdin andHercules directors Ron Clements and
John Muska were finallygetting to work on their passion
(25:50):
project, Treasure Planet,which was due out the following year
after Atlantis the LostEmpire. Treasure Planet and Atlantis
share similar aesthetics, amix of hand drawn animation and cutting
edge CG animation as well as asteampunk style. It was another new
avenue for Disney animationand everyone was waiting with bated
(26:10):
breath to see how Atlantis theLost Empire would be received. Speaking
of new avenues. Or at leastthe opposite of new avenues because
this is nothing new, it's timefor the obligature Keanu reference
of this episode. And this is apart of the podcast where I try and
link every movie that Ifeature with Keanu Reeves for no
reason other than he is thebest of men. And originally I thought
(26:33):
there was no way I would beable to link Keanu Reeves to Atlantis
Thanos Empire. Until I googledKeanu Atlantis thinking something's
gotta be there. And it wasliterally straight away. The Keanu
Reeves is associated with thecharacter B from the comic book Berserker,
(26:54):
and the character Bee is animmortal warrior who protects Atlantis,
theoretically the same versionof Atlantis that Mino and the team
visit in this movie. So thatis the easiest and best and most
brilliant way that I can linkKeanu Reeves to Atlantis the Lost
Empire. So while Kirk Wise andGary Trousdale agreed that Atlantis
(27:16):
the Lost Empire would not be amusical, the studio's marketing department
insisted that at least onesong be featured during the film's
end credits. And this wasmostly to adhere to tradition they
enlisted Oscar nominatedsongwriter Diane Warren to write
a track entitled where theDream Takes yous and Grammy Award
(27:36):
winning singer Mhi'ya washired to record the song. Maya was
riding on a bit of a high atthe time, having just been part of
the Lady Marmaladecollaboration with Pink, Christina
Aguilera, Lil Kim and MissyElliot. The idea being that where
the Dream Takes you wouldbolster Maya's career the same way
Christina Aguilera's had beenwhen she recorded the song Reflection
(28:00):
for Mulan in 1990. And ifyou're wondering why you've never
heard of where the Dream Takesyou, it's because it flopped pretty
hard, both commercially andcritically Transferred and wise approached
composer James Newton Howard,who'd recently finished Dinosaur
score for the movie'sinstrumental score. Since there would
(28:20):
be no dialogue in a number ofthe film's pivotal scenes, Howard
collaborated closely with thedirectors to create a moving soundtrack
that reflected the emotionalmeaning of each scene. In order to
create distinct musical themesfor the surface world and Atlantis,
Newton Howard used anIndonesian orchestral style for the
Atlantean theme. Now I'vementioned this was obviously a completely
(28:43):
new avenue for Disney to godown. This was a completely new type
of movie. There would be nosongs. It would have a more grown
up feel than other Disneyanimated movies. And in the fledgling
Internet era, Disney did tryto utilize Internet marketing for
Atlantis, including a websitewith mini games, three mobile phone
(29:05):
networks for mobile games.McDonald's also did the traditional
Happy Meal promotions withtoys elsewhere at Disney, though
plans were afoot. Big plans.They had already envisioned Atlantis
as an Adventureland stylemovie taking inspiration from Disney's
theme parks. But within theDisney theme park management, there
(29:26):
were plans to redo Submarinevoyage at Disneyland California,
an attraction which alreadypaid homage to 20,000 Leagues under
the Sea, an attraction thathad opened in 1959 itself. Inspiration
for Atlantis Summary Voyageclosed in July 1998 and the plans
to refresh this attractionwith an upcoming feature film made
(29:50):
sense. Rebrand it withDisney's next big animated adventure.
Disney saw franchise materialfor Atlantis. An Atlantean encounter,
as it was set to be known, wasgoing to be narrated by Preston B.
Whitmore, have an encounterwith the Leviathan, and other characters
would come over the intercomas the ride continued. The plans
(30:12):
were to open the attraction in2003. However, that never happened.
What else happened in 2003?Finding Nemo came out and was a huge
hit. So this particularattraction is now Finding Nemo's
Submarine Voyage. That wasn'tthe only project planned for Disney
Parks though also planned wasFire Mountain, the latest mountain
(30:36):
to add to Space Mountains,Splash Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain
Railroad and ExpeditionEverest Forbidden Mountain. This
attraction for Walt DisneyWorld's Magic Kingdom in Florida
planned an epic roller coasterwhere guests hung like a hand glider,
emulating the final part ofthe movie, taking you through an
exploding volcano. FireMountain had originally been planned
(30:58):
20,000 leagues under the Seabut was scrapped and again, having
a brand new ride for Disney'sbrand new big movie made a lot of
sense at the time. But justlike Atlantis itself, theme park
ride plans also justdisappeared, becoming myths in their
own lore. Atlantis the LostEmpire had its world premiere at
(31:19):
Disney's El Capitan Theatre inHollywood on 3 June 2001. Destination
Atlantis was on display at thepremiere, featuring behind the scenes
props from the film andinformation of the legend of Atlantis
with video games, displays,laser tag and other attractions.
The Aquarium of the Pacificloaned a variety of fish for display
(31:40):
within the attraction andlimited release, then followed in
New York City and Los Angeleson 8 June 2001 with a wide release
following on 15 June 2001. Dueto its limited first week opening
in two cinemas, it opened at13th at the box office the same week
as Swordfish and Evolution.Swordfish went to number one that
(32:02):
week. Shrek was second beingout five weeks at that point. And
yes, there is a reason I'mmentioning Shrek in Atlantis. Second
week it opened wide and jumpedup to second place after brand new
release Lana Croft Tomb RaiderShrek was at third the following
week Atlantis fell to fourth,Shrek was fifth with only a few million
(32:25):
dollars in between the twomovies. The next week Lantis fell
to fifth and Shrek to sixth,this time only $87,000 between the
two in revenue. The next weekAtlantis fell to ninth, Shrek was
eighth earning $1.5 millionmore. Shrek had been out nine weeks
(32:45):
at this point to Atlantis'sfive weeks. The following week Atlantis
was out at the top 10, butShrek was not. And it's easy to blame
Shrek for the failure ofAtlantis the Lost Empire. However,
they were very differentmovies. One was very bright, very
colorful, very funny andclearly aimed at a more family market.
(33:08):
Atlantis was somethingcompletely different. Shrek was the
new kid on the block. Everyonewas talking about Shrek and it unfortunately
just pushed Atlantis the LostEmpire out of the limelight a little
bit. On his $120 millionbudget, Atlantis The Lost Empire
grossed $84.1 milliondomestically in the US and $102 million
(33:30):
internationally for a totalworldwide gross of $186.1 million,
which was a huge financialloss for Disney. In recent years,
the studio has ironically allbut buried Atlantis. It's available
on Disney, but there's nomerchandising or characters in promotional
material. It also has adisappointing 48% of rotten tomatoes,
(33:53):
with the consensus readingAtlantis provides a fast paced spectacle
but stints on such things ascharacter development and a coherent
plot. While some critics likeRoger Ebert praised the film as rousing
in an old pulp science fictionsort of way, and the New York Times
declared it a monumentaltreat, Variety called the film all
talking, no singing, nodancing, and in the end no fun, and
(34:17):
the Washington Post panned itas a new fashioned but old fangled
hash for the 74th AcademyAwards. The Academy of Motion Picture
Arts and Sciences finallyrecognized animated feature films
with a new category thanks tothe growth of animation studios like
Pixar and DreamWorks. Tenyears after beauty and the Beast
had been nominated for Bestpicture at the 64th Academy Awards,
(34:41):
Disney were presumablyconfident that Atlantis would be
in with a shot. Not only wasrival animation studio DreamWorks
Shrek the inaugural BestAnimated Feature winner, Atlantis
the Lost Empire was not evennominated for the award, which further
exacerbated its box officelosses and Disney's overall feelings
(35:02):
towards it. Atlantis deservedbetter though. In what world is Ginny
Neutron Boy Genius better thanthis? Just like the proposed attractions
for Disneyland and Walt DisneyWorld, the planned animated series,
which was going to be DisneyTelevision's answer to the X Files,
was also quietly canceled. Theseries, called Team Atlantis, was
(35:26):
going to be hugely ambitious,investigating otherworldly phenomena
and ancient cultures. Everyweek the first three episodes of
the TV series were cobbledtogether and packaged as a direct
to video sequel calledAtlantis Milo's Return, released
almost two years after theoriginal film. Now there are no other
(35:47):
sequels and there is no remakeof Atlantis the Lost Empire. However,
there is controversysurrounding Atlantis that maybe it
was a remake of something elsebecause there were a number of similarities
between Atlantis the LostEmpire and the anime series the Secret
of Blue Water, which aired in1990-1991, and this was pointed out
(36:10):
by several viewers, especiallyin story, setting and character design.
Nadia was based on a conceptby Hayao Miyazaki and Hideaki Anno,
directed by Anno, the directorof Shin Godzilla. Both Japanese and
American viewers recognizedsimilarities which were so strong
that the film's productioncompany, Gainax, was recommended
(36:31):
to sue for plagiarism. Gainaxrefused to sue citing Disney's strong
legal team and the potentialfor reprisals. The 1870 Jules Verne
novel Twenty Thousand Leaguesunder the Sea served as some inspiration
for both Atlantis and Nadia,and Kirk Wise would later say that
he'd never heard of the animeuntil long after Atlantis had completed
(36:54):
production. However, there arefar more similarities not connected
with 20,000 leagues under theSea, including the characters. Nadia
being the rightful heir to thethrone of Atlantis, just like Kira,
Gene being a spirited wideeyed adventurer just like Mino and
the magic blue crystal basedtechnology in both both start on
(37:15):
land tradition to an Americanboat before descending underwater
via submarine featuring apatriarchal captain, a blonde second
in command, and a cast ofinternational figures as well as
the crew combating a nauticalcreature. I'm not saying it's exactly
like Nadia, but I'm not notsaying that either because the evidence
(37:37):
would suggest that it is very,very similar, allegedly. Because
obviously Gainax have neverfiled any legal suit against Disney
for plagiarism. So allegedlyNadia and Atlantis are very similar.
Had Atlantis the Lost Empirebeen a box office success, it could
(37:57):
have easily revolutionizedDisney. It would have opened up a
whole new world, pun intendedfor animation, with Treasure Planet
following suit, pushing thelimits of theatrical and television
animation while taking thestudio's cherished animated production
in a daring new direction andpossibly prolonging the life of 2D
(38:18):
hand drawn animation.Unfortunately, it was a pipe dream
and that was not meant to be.But it's not all doom and gloom for
the Lost Empire. It remainsone of the most beautiful and epic
movies of Disney's animatedback catalog. It's also gained something
many Disney movies never do.Atlantis the Lost Empire has grown
(38:40):
into a true cult classic inthe years since its release. It has
a fervent fan base who adorethe movie and its lore. People cosplay
as the entire crew of theUlysses. There are fan petitions
to make Keeda an officialDisney princess, although let's be
honest, she's kinda coolerwithout that label. It has a diverse
cast and it's just unfortunatethat we never got to see more from
(39:04):
this world. The movie squeezesin the brief experimental period
between the Disney renaissanceand what is popularly referred to
as the Disney Revival, wherethe studio was experimenting with
genres and styles in the 2Danimated world world. And while there
might have been changes madeand corners cut, there is nothing
that looks or feels likeAtlantis the Lost Empire in the history
(39:27):
of Disney animation. Thefilmmakers took the lack of oversight
from Disney executives andused it to their full advantage.
Its striking visual style isgenuinely unlike anything Disney
had produced to that point oreven to this day. It's little wonder
the film has a passionate fanbase and is considered to be an underrated
cult classic. Enthusiasm forAtlantis led to a cast and crew livestream
(39:52):
reunion in 2021 for its 20thanniversary and again in 2022. If
Disney want to do live actionremakes, do it on this. This would
be a perfect live actionremake. It doesn't have songs or
a cuddly animal sidekick, it'sa true homage to pulp action adventure
(40:12):
films. And with Indiana Jonesmovie seemingly running out of steam,
it seems like the idealopportunity for Disney to embrace
Atlantis. You can fix the plotweaknesses and cliched characters,
give Kida more agency, make ita true period piece, and Disney don't
even need to bill it as a liveaction remake because the fans who
(40:33):
know will love it and thosethat don't will want to see a fun,
well made action adventure.Timothee Chalamet would make a great
Milo Thatch Tell me it's notjust me who sees it and Michael J.
Fox is retired from actingnow, but how amazing would it be
to see a little Easter egg, abook on Milo's shelf written by Michael
(40:55):
J. Fox, something to call backto Fox and how much he brings to
the character of Milo, who'swritten quite flat, but Fox brings
him to life with his alwaysenergetic performance. Similarly,
though, it's not all roses forthis movie either. This movie does
have glaring issues too, mostnotably the white savior narrative
(41:15):
and the fact that a genuinelyfascinating story of indigenous peoples
and their culture andbackground is overshadowed by the
story of the explorers and theobvious betrayal of Roark. Keda should
have been the savior of herown people. The idea that a white
American kid knew more aboutthe language than the people did
is just baffling logic. Thestory and characters is where this
(41:37):
movie just struggles. Asinteresting as Kida is, and I genuinely
think she's got huge potentialto be such a terrific character in
Disney history, even withoutbeing an official princess. I want
to know more about Atlanteanculture, the crystals, what it all
means. But what does it allmean though? Why does she start floating?
I really have no idea. Andthis movie makes no sense. Even in
(42:01):
the background. Disney werequietly retiring hand drawn animation,
making huge layoffs in theiranimation department and salary cutbacks,
but what saves this movie isthe stunning animation. Mike Mignola's
art style is something sodifferent to what came before the
Lost Empire. Like Herculesbefore it looks so unique and unusual
(42:24):
and underappreciated. It feelslike the rare Disney movie. Not made
for merchandising, not madefor toys or fast food tie ins. It
was made purely for the loveof adventure movies. It didn't cater
to children. It was made morefor teenagers and adults. It's ardent
fans love it because itexposed them to archaeology and linguistics
(42:46):
subjects. Other animated filmsjust don't even touch on Atlantis.
The Lost Empire may have itsflaws, but it's also one of Disney's
most unique treasures, like adiamond or indeed a crystal. Thank
you for listening. As always,I would love to hear your thoughts
on Atlantis, the Lost Empire.And thank you for your continued
support of this podcast. Ifyou want to get involved and help
(43:09):
this podcast, you could tellyour friends and family about this
podcast. You could leave arating or review wherever you found
this podcast. Or you can findme. I'm at Verbal Diorama on all
major social media platforms.You can like posts, you can share
posts, you can comment onposts, you can do anything you want
with posts. Or you can justsend me a message on one of the social
(43:30):
medias. But either way you canfollow Verbal Diorama. It all helps
with visibility. Now, as Imentioned, this is the final episode
of animation season. However,it is not the final episode of Verbal
Diorama. I am not quittingyet. And the next month on Verbal
Diorama is going to becelebrating International Women's
(43:51):
Day and Women's History Month.And all of the movies that I feature
in the month of March aregoing to be focused on true stories
featuring women. Or shall wesay inspired by the true stories
of women. And I'm going to bestarting with the remarkable story
of an all female unit ofwarriors who protected the African
(44:13):
kingdom of dahomey in the1800s. It is the story of the Agoji
and it is the movie the WomanKing. I am so excited to be talking
about the Woman King. I hopeyou will join me next episode for
the history and legacy of theWoman King. Now I always like to
say that this podcast is freeand it always will be free. There
(44:34):
will never be any charge tolisten to this podcast. However,
it is not free to make apodcast and I rely on some exceptionally
generous people to help fundVerbal Diorama and secure the future
of Verbal Diorama as well. Nowyou're under no obligation to join
those people. You can continueto listen for free forever. However,
(44:54):
if you enjoy what I do and youget value out of what I do, and you
want to support an indiecreator who does all of this on her
own, then you can. You can dothat in one of two ways. You can
go to verbaldiorama.com tipsand give a one off tip. Or you can
go to verbaldiorama dot compatreon and you can join the amazing
(45:14):
patrons of this podcast. Theyare Claudia, Simon, Laurel, Derek,
Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke,Michael, Scott, Brendan, Lisa, Sam,
Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas.So, Kev, Pete, Heather, Danny, Ali,
Stu, Brett, Philip M,Michelle, Zenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip
K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle andAaron. If you want to get in touch,
(45:38):
you can email verbaldioramail.com you can also fill out
the little contactform@verbaldiorama.com as well. You
can also find bits that Ido@filmstories.co.uk articles and
magazines and such like. Butmostly, thank you for being with
this podcast for six years.And here's to the next six. And finally.
(47:16):
Bye.
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