Batman & Robin

Episode Transcript
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(02:22):
Hi, everyone. I'm Em. Andwelcome to Verbal Diorama, episode
307, Batman and Robin. This isthe podcast that's all about the
history and legacy of moviesyou know and movies you don't. And
allow me to break the ice. Myname is Em. I host Verbal Diorama.
Learn it well, for it is nochilling sound, but it is a sound

(02:42):
you can chill with, hopefully.Welcome to Verbal Diorama it's ice
to seebrabrand-newndnewlistenersandregularreturninglisteners.Thankyoufor being
here. Thank you for choosingto listen to this podcast. I am so
happy to have you here for thehistory and legacy leg icy of Batman

(03:02):
and Robin. I am so sorry. Thepuns in this movie, it's just. It's
just. They're there. They'rejust there. Okay, I promise this
episode is not going to be funof puns. I just wanted to get some
in before we started so thatI'm expunged of all my puns and there
will be no more. Maybe. Ican't promise. There may be some

(03:25):
at the end, but huge thank youto everyone who listens to this podcast
who appreciates my very weirdsense of hhumourumorsometimes andjusthascontinuedto
listen and support thispodcast over the last six years and
well over 300 episodes now.Thank you so much for your support.
It genuinely means so much.And I'm finally doing an episode

(03:48):
on Batman and Robin. This hasbeen such a long time coming as have
all of the episodes thismonth. They have all been episodes
that have been a long timecoming to this podcast. Originally,
back in the day I was going todo a double episode on Batman Forever
and Batman and Robin, and thenI realized the stories of both of
those movies were just so hugethat I basically split them up. And

(04:11):
then my plan was to do BatmanForever followed by Batman and Robin.
That never happened. So I didBatman Forever last year and I'm
finally doing Batman andRobin. And this has been so much
fun, genuinely doing thesemovies, doing Batman Forever and
then doing Batman and Robin.So much fun. I can't tell you how

(04:32):
appreciative of both of thesemovies that I am. I'm not saying
they're the greatest Batmanmovies, but I really genuinely do
appreciate both of thesemovies. The last episode was on Mr.
And Mrs. Smith, and obviouslythat was also a long time coming
to this podcast, and mostlyabout the intense paparazzi trying
to get a shot of Golden CoupleBrangelina. Batman, of course, harkens

(04:57):
back to the golden age ofcomics. That's not the only link
between these two verydifferent scenes. Mr. And Mrs. Smith
may have had the onsetchemistry. How many butt shots did
it have? None. Were therepronounced Bat nipples? No, there
were not in Mr. And Mrs.Smith's. I like to think that because
George Clooney and Brad Pittare friends because they work together

(05:20):
on the Ocean's films, that I'mpretty sure that Pitt would have
ribbed Clooney about his timeas the Caped Crusader. Even though
we know George Clooney has asense of humor about this movie.
There's also a lot of shame, Ithink, about this movie, but also
cast and crew of this movie.There's also a lot of sense of humhumouror,but
thepapsweren'tjusttrying toget shots of Brangelina. 90s paparazzi

(05:43):
also swarmed the Batman andRobin set and they were desperate
for a photo of one thing inparticular. Not the COD pieces, unfortunately.
Let's face it though, there'ssomething about an anatomically correct
rubber suit that puts fire ina girl's lips. Here's the trailer
for Batman and Robin.

(08:28):
The dynamic duo of Batman andRobin work to protect Gotham City
from evil forces. But theirrelationship is challenged when they
must fight the ice cool Mr.Freeze and the venomous Poison Ivy,
who seek to both freeze Gothamand repopulate it with mutant plants.
Joining them on their quest isBarbara Wilson, the niece of Bruce
Wayne's faithful butlerAlfred, who joins the team as new

(08:51):
hero Batgirl. But Alfred isvery sick, and it turns out the only
person with a cure is Mr.Freeze. Let's run through the cast
of this movie. We have ArnoldSchwarzenegger as Dr. Victor Freeze,
aka Mr. Freeze, George Clooneyas Bruce Wayne, aka Batman, Chris
O' Donnell as Dick Grayson,aka Robin, Uma Thurman as Dr. Pamela

(09:16):
Isley, aka Poison Ivy, AliciaSilverstone as Barbara Wilson, aka
Batgirl, Michael Gough asAlfred Pennyworth, Pat Hingle as
Commissioner James Gordon andElle macpherson as Julie Madison.
Batman and Robin was writtenby Akiva Goldsman, directed by Joel
Schumacher, and was based oncharacters appearing in DC Comics

(09:39):
by Bob Kane and Bill Finger.Riddle me this. Riddle me that. What
happened to Schumacher'ssequel to Bat Man Forever? So much.
So freaking much. LastSeptember 2024, I did an episode

(09:59):
on Batman Forever. It'sepisode 271, and to tell the story
of Batman and Robin, you needto start with Batman Forever. So
I will just wait here whileyou go and listen to that. If you
already haven't, or if you didand you need a refresher, please
go and listen to that episode.But the Batman series so far has
been a ride. Let's summarize.After Batman 1989, which literally

(10:25):
changed the face of not justsuperhero cinema, but blockbuster
cinema, marketing, promotions,fan expectations, it was inevitable
Warner Brothers would want asequel and because Tim Burton delivered
so brilliantly the first timearound, they gave him more creative
control on the sequel. Andthen he delivered Batman Returns,

(10:46):
which is a terrific Batmanmovie, retrospectively seen as one
of the highest points of theentire franchise. But it was also
violent, dark, scary andsexual. While Batman Returns was
successful at the box office,it wasn't as successful as Batman.
And obviously, when you're inthe movie business, merchandise is
a necessity. So JoelSchumacher was hired to bring merchandise,

(11:11):
but also some homoeroticism,neon and batnips to Batman Forever.
But filling the coffers withthat lucrative merchandise was the
main reason why they wantedthis movie. They had to persuade
companies to come back to thebat after Batman Returns, and that
wasn't a particularly easytask. McDonald's had been specifically
burned by the association withCatwoman's tight black catsuit and

(11:34):
whips, not really beingconsidered family friendly, except
for Indiana Jones. But hedidn't really use the whip the same
way Michelle Pfeiffer did. Healso didn't wear skin tight black
pvc. More's the shame. Butafter Batman Forever did the business
in June 1995, Warner Brothersimmediately commissioned a sequel
and immediately went back toJoel Schumacher, who was consistently

(11:57):
delivering for the studio withboth Batman and his more serious
movies like Falling down andthe Client. First, Schumacher would
work on his second Grishamadaptation, A Time to Kill, and then
he would start on Batman 4,which as I mentioned in Batman Forever
should have been Batman 4ever. And Batman Forever, which introduced

(12:18):
Robin, should have been calledBatman and Robin, but I digress.
Also returning wasscreenwriter Akiba Goldsman, who
was also working on A Time toKill. Schumacher and Goldsman came
up with the plot of Batman 4together while spitballing ideas
during Time to Kill'sproduction. And Warner Brothers were
very specific. They knew whatthey wanted. More family friendly,

(12:40):
more suitable for children,and more suitable for the toys that
children would want forbirthdays and Christmas. The leap
of faith taken with BatmanForever had paid off, and Warner
Brothers wanted moreSchumacher less Tim Burton. And indeed,
this would be the only Batmanmovie that wouldn't have the involvement
of Tim Burton in any capacity.He was a producer on Batman Forever.

(13:03):
And Joel schumacher completelyembraced the 60s, campy, colorful
Batman with added soundeffects. He wanted a live action
cartoon. Early on in theprocess, Akiba Goldsman expressed
his concerns about the sequeland about what Warner Brothers wanted
from it. The early warningsigns were then Schumacher would

(13:24):
say that in retrospect,Goldman was right in the long run.
But at the time, they justwent with the flow and did what they
were told to do. There wererumors that Schumacher wanted to
make a version of Batman YearOne instead, and that Warner Brothers
forced his hand to make Batmanand Robin. In an interview with the
Hollywood Reporter in 2017,Schumacher denied he wanted to make

(13:44):
year one and called it afantasy. He did admit to wanting
to make an Arkham movie,especially after the events of Batman
Forever, the Riddler currentlyresiding in Arkham Asylum. After
using two Face and the Riddlerin Batman Forever and the sanctioning
of Jim Carrey's buffoonery,Schumacher wanted to avoid retreading

(14:04):
similar territory, so theychose villains with completely different
aesthetics and motivations.They were specifically looking for
villains that would providestrong visual contrast and spectacular
set pieces. The ice and firedichotomy between Mr. Freeze and
poison Ivy offered exactlythat one villain associated with
cold blue environments andanother with warm, green organic

(14:28):
spaces. Having two visuallystriking characters would also translate
well to toys and merchandise.Mr. Freeze's elaborate mechanical
suit and Poison Ivy'sseductive plant themed costumes were
designed to be both cinematicand commercially appealing. Mr. Freeze's
quest to save his dying wifeprovided what they saw as sympathetic

(14:50):
motivation, also adding to anarrative of Bruce's butler Alfred
being sick with the sameillness, while Poison Ivy's environmental
extremism offered a differentkind of threat, one that was seductive
and manipulative rather thanpurely physical. So who are these
characters in Batman lore? Mr.Priest debuted in Batman number 121

(15:12):
in February 1957 as Mr. Zero,a mad scientist who, after a physiology
altering mishap, becomes anice themed criminal, typically armed
with freezing weapons, forcedto live in sub zero temperatures
and wear a special cryo suitfor survival. He was later renamed
Mr. Freeze after the versionfeatured in the 1966 Batman TV series.

(15:35):
In this series, he was playedby three different actors, George
Sanders, Otto Preminger, andeli Wallach. In 1992, Mr.Freeze was
reinvented as a tragic villainfor Batman the Animated Series in
the episode Heart of Ice,which portrayed Victor Freeze as
a scientist from Gotham Citywho suffers a lab accident while

(15:56):
trying to cryogenicallypreserve his terminally ill wife.
He turns to crime to fund hisquest to cure her, which naturally
makes him an adversary ofBatman. And just like Mr. Freeze
being Victor Fries, Poison Ivyalso has to have a name that sounds
somewhat similar to PoisonIvy. Pamela Isley Poison Ivy debuted

(16:18):
in Batman number 181 in June1966, and she came about due to the
lack of female villains afterCatwoman on the Batman TV show Poison
Ivy is a doctor of botanyturned misanthropic eco terrorists.
Considered one of the mostbeautiful women in all of Gotham,
she is empowered by anelemental force known as the Green,

(16:39):
and she attempts to protectthe sanctity and supremacy of nature
at all costs by lashing outagainst humanity. She was initially
depicted as having anattraction to Batman and creating
love potions to inspire him.Also seen as an antihero, as well
as being the love interest ofHarley Quinn in the New 52 reboot,
Ivy is an equal opportunityseducer of both men and women. And

(17:03):
because Ivy doesn't reallyhave the requisite muscle to take
on Batman, Bane was introducedas her muscle in this movie. Alfred
did indeed canonically have aniece. Her name was Daphne and she
appeared in Batman number 216in 1969. The daughter of Alfred's
brother Wilfred, Daphne wasBritish and blonde. Schumacher wanted

(17:24):
to have a female hero tobalance the male heroes as well as
to take on the female villain.The First Batgirl in April 1961 was
Betty Kane, who debuted inBatman number 139, and she was replaced
in 1967 by Barbara Gordon, theniece of Commissioner James Gordon.
Barbara Gordon held thebatgirl mantle until 1988 when the

(17:47):
role was given to CassandraKane. This movie has Barbara Wilson,
the daughter of Alfred'ssister Margaret, AKA Peg, a character
created for the movie withBarbara, a combination of Daphne
Pennyworth and Barbara Gordon.Now, if you've listened to the episode
that I did on Batman Forever,you will know about the countless
issues on the set of BatmanForever and despite these issues

(18:11):
between Val Kilmer and JoelSchumacher. Kilmer was contracted
for a second Batman film andoriginally it was expected that he
would reprise the role. Thequick turnaround for the next Batman
movie, with only two yearsbetween the sequel instead of the
usual three, meant that whenKilmer announced he would be making
the Saint for paramount untilmid July 1996, that would leave only

(18:35):
days to prepare for Batman andRobin. Warner Brothers reminded Paramount
that Kilmer was due to startwork on Batman on the 1st of August
1996. Paramount weren't happyand suggested they'd make the Saint
without him. Val Kilmerresponded that in that case he wouldn't
do Batman, thinking that wouldencourage Warner Brothers to postpone

(18:56):
filming for him. Instead,Warner Bros. Kept its start date,
released Kilmer from hiscontract, and started hunting for
a new Batman. That there wasno love lost between Kilmer and Schumacher
probably also exacerbatedmatters. It's widely known that the
two didn't get along. Somecasting controversies fade over time.

(19:16):
Michael Keaton is now prettybeloved as Tim Burton's take on the
Caped Crusader, but peopleforget that at the time, the fan
base revolted at the idea ofKeaton, then known for Mr. Mom, playing
Batman. I guess you couldargue that Keaton made the role iconic,
and if you do that, you get apass from the initial backlash. Such
grace wouldn't be afforded,though, to George Clooney, who'd

(19:39):
end up being the guy to takeover from Val Kilmer. William Baldwin
was originally considered. Hewould go on to voice the character
in the animated Justice LeagueCrisis on Two Earths. Instead, his
brother Alec Baldwin wasconsidered by Tim Burton to be the
original Batman. ThoseBaldwins just can't seem to get a
back break. Nor could DavidDuchovny, who was considered but

(20:01):
rejected, allegedly becausehis nose was too big. Knowing the
mid-90s, George Clooney wasprimarily known for his role on the
hit TV show ER. But in 1996 hestarred in Robert Rodriguez's From
Dusk Till dawn, where he gotto showcase his charisma and humorous
as well as having a bit of anedge and being able to do action

(20:22):
scenes. That is episode 229 ofthis podcast, by the way. Another
plus for Clooney. He wascheap, he wasn't a movie star back
then, and he was also stillfilming er, and so the shooting schedule
was adjusted so he could workon both simultaneously without scheduling
conflict. Schumacher wanted aloiter interpretation and felt Clooney

(20:43):
was perfect and certainlyoffered something different to the
serious actors that wereMichael Keaton and Val Kilmer. Chris
o' Donnell was already linedup to appear for a second time as
Robin, and with the villainsset in their minds, Schumacher went
about casting his newcharacters. There's a popular theory
that Patrick Stewart was upfor the role of Mr. Freeze, but this

(21:04):
is something Schumacher hasdenied, saying that despite it being
a wonderful idea, Stuart hadnever been suggested. The idea may
have come from an earlierscript where it was clearly meant
for someone moreShakespearean, but the script changed
in subsequent versions. Andjust like when Jack Nicholson signed
on to play Joker in Batman,they wanted a big name actor for

(21:26):
this role. There was no onebigger in 1997 than Arnold Schwarzenegger,
and Schwarzenegger wanted towork with Schumacher, and for his
troubles he got an incrediblylucrative deal. A $25 million salary,
top billing on the movie. Justlike Jack Nicholson got the Batman.89
plus a limited working day.Again, just like Nicholson, only

(21:48):
12 hours built into hiscontract, which, when combined with
his time spent in the makeupchair and getting suited up, limited
how long the filmmakers couldshoot with him. He would end up spending
25 days on set, basicallyearning $1 million a day. That is
definitely not minimum wage.The character had to be adapted specifically

(22:08):
for Schwarzenegger'spersonality and acting style. The
filmmakers knew they weregetting the action star's particular
brand of performance, completewith his signature one liners and
his physical presence forPoison Ivy. Similarly, Julia Roberts
was not on the director'slist, but considering they'd spent
a lot of money onSchwarzenegger, they needed to keep

(22:30):
costs low, which meant DemiMoore and Sharon Stone were both
out. Schumacher had seen UmaThurman in a Vanity Fair photo shoot,
as well as her small role inthe Adventures of Baron Munchausen.
She had her breakout role in1994 with Pulp Fiction, and she loved
the idea of playing a femmefatale. Changes in the script wouldn't

(22:50):
just affect thecharacterization of Mr. Priest, but
also Poison Ivy and BruceWayne's girlfriend, Julie Madison,
played by supermodel Ellemacpherson. Originally, Ivy was going
to stab Julie, who would havedied from her wounds. Instead, Julie
just disappears halfwaythrough the movie, and Ivy attempts
to stab Batgirl instead. JulieMadison, interestingly, was the first

(23:12):
known love interest for BruceWayne. She appeared in Detective
Comics number 31, weightlifterand WCW wrestler Jeep. Swenson was
cast as Bane after a stuntmanfrom Batman Forever suggested him
he had the biggest biceps onrecord at the time. Sadly, Swenson
died shortly after the movieopened in August 1997 of a heart

(23:34):
attack. He was only 40 yearsold at the time of his death. Alicia
Silverstone was riding highfrom her breakthrough role as Cher
in Clueless, still one of thegreatest comedies ever made. And
she signed a deal withColumbia TriStar worth $10 million
as a result of Clueless. Aspart of the package, she got a three
year first look deal for herown production company, First Kiss

(23:58):
Productions. She wasSchumacher's only choice to play
Batgirl, retconned as Alfred'sniece rather than Commissioner Gordon's
niece, presumably so it wouldmake total sense that her uncle knew
her exact measurements to prefit her for a Batgirl costume, just
in case she was needed to helpfight crime. Many of the team who

(24:18):
worked on Batman Foreverreturned for Batman and Robin, including
production designer BarbaraLing. The design philosophy was deliberately
extravagant and theatrical,pushing the visual aesthetic to extreme
levels. Ling and Schumacheraimed for what they called a living
comic book. The design wasintentionally Artificial and stylized,

(24:38):
rejecting any sense of realismin favor of a hyper colorful, neon
soaked world that would feellike stepping into the pages of a
comic book. Lin created a moreart deco inspired cityscape to a
massive scale. Buildings andsets were designed to dwarf the human
characters, creating an almostmythic sense of proportion. Batman

(25:00):
Brother was splashed withneon. Batman and Robin was saturated
in it. The city was bathed inblues, purples and other vibrant
colors, giving it a neon Tokyofeel with a similar sense of architectural
excess. Giant statues,elaborate facades and ornate details
were everywhere, creating asense of theatrical grandeur like

(25:22):
Greek or Roman statues.Miniatures and computer generated
elements were used for somescenes and large full scale sets
were also constructedincluding Gotham City Covered in
Ice. The scene featuringpeople frozen by Mr. Freeze's ice
ray. Life size mannequinscovered in fake ice were created.

(25:42):
Each villain's lair alsoreflected their thematic elements
with Mr. Frieze's designed asa crystalline ice palace with frozen
machinery and blue tintedlighting. The set featured actual
ice elements and requiredcareful temperature control during
filming. Poison Ivy's hideoutwas a lush overgrown greenhouse environment
with organic plant likearchitecture. The design incorporated

(26:05):
living plants with artificialelements to create an Eden like but
dangerous environment. And weneed to talk about batnips because
the Greek and Roman aestheticalso continued into the costume design
which took Batman Forever'sbatnips and made them more pronounced.
Schumacher defended thischoice by saying he wanted the suits

(26:26):
to resemble classical Greekand Roman armor which often featured
idealized male anatomy. Thenipples were sculpted as part of
the moulded chess pieces. BothBatman and Robin's suit featured
extremely pronounced muscledefinition with every ab, pectoral
and arm muscle dramaticallyemphasized. They were more anatomical

(26:46):
sculptures than functionalarmour. And then there were the cod
pieces. Kind of enough saidabout those, but it certainly added
to the homoerotic undertones,tones and overtones. The costumes
in Batman Robin were designedby a team led by Jose Fernandez and
Robert Tutoris. The costumedesign philosophy, just like the

(27:06):
production design philosophy,was deliberately theatrical and exaggerated,
moving completely away frompractical considerations in favor
of visual impact. Unlikeprevious Batman films, Batman and
Robin featured multiple suitvariations. The primary black rubber
and latex suits were both.Batman and Robin maintained the basic

(27:28):
color scheme, but with morepronounced detailing. But to fight
Mr. Freeze, they also hadspecial silver and blue ice suits
designed for the finalconfrontation with Mr. Freeze, featuring
built in heating elements andmodified esthetics to match the icy
environment. Just how didAlfred manage to build all these
suits while also beingseriously ill with McGregor's syndrome?

(27:51):
No one knows so manyquestions. In this movie, the costume
department created multipleversions of each suit for different
purposes. You had your herosuits which were used for close ups
and detailed shots, stuntsuits which were more flexible versions
for action sequences, andpractical suits which were versions
that had working gadgets andeffects. Speaking of practical suits

(28:15):
and Mr. Freeze. His costumewas designed to look like a walking
refrigeration unit with tubes,gauges and LED lights throughout.
It weighed approximately 40pounds, was constructed using 500
hand beaten aluminium partsand required cooling systems to keep
Schwarzenegger comfortableduring filming. The transparent helmet

(28:36):
dome was designed to fog upperiodically, creating visual effects
that emphasized thecharacter's need for sub zero temperatures.
The suit also incorporatednumerous LED lights and fiber optic
elements that would illuminateduring filming, creating a high tech
appearance. Schwarzeneggerwore acrylic paint on his face and
body to mimic the frozen bluelook of ice. The suit was created

(29:00):
by armorer Terry English,who's been creating armor for film
and television for over 50years. He also created armor for
the films Excalibur, Aliensand First Night. Seven of the suits
were made and Schwarzeneggerwas allowed to keep one of the suits
and after filming ending, buthe had to sign a contract stating
he would pay the studio $1 ayear, essentially granting him the

(29:23):
rights to lease the costume.It's unsurprising that out of everyone
who worked on this movie,Schwarzenegger is the one who has
no regrets about hisinvolvement. He had a blast on this
movie, including having JonBon Jovi turn up to set to give him
Cuban cigars. This is despitehim having battery acid leak into
his mouth due to the LEDlights that made his mouth light

(29:46):
up. His saliva would get intothe LED light, disintegrate the battery,
and battery acid would leakinto his mouth. A workaround was
created by Jeff dawn, hislongtime makeup artist. He won an
Oscar for Terminator 2Judgment Day by packing the device
into a balloon. But thebattery would only last 20 minutes
and it literally cost$5,000aminute for delays. Schwarzenegger

(30:09):
was originally going to shavehis head for the role, but he ended
up getting a bold cut whichadded an extra hour and 45 minutes
to his time in the makeupchair every day. But he was getting
paid bank, so presumably wascompletely fine with it. Also, no
regrets, Uma Thurman, whoabsolutely relishes the part and
for me is the best thing inthis movie because she understood

(30:30):
the assignment. Her outfitsincorporated leaf patterns and organic
shapes with some costumesfeaturing actual preserved leaves
sewn in Fabric. Filming wasdue to start in August 1996, but
was delayed slightly toSeptember 1996, and filming was an
experience. I mentioned lastepisode about the press attention

(30:51):
for Mr. And Mrs. Smith.Although not quite as intrusive,
high public interest in Batmanand Robin led to paparazzi regularly
disrupting the set. Securitywere regularly escorting people off
set who had cameras, and allthey wanted was a photo of Arnold
Schwarzenegger in costume.They could get $10,000 just for one

(31:12):
photograph. The pressintrusion didn't stop there, though.
The other person they wereobsessed with was Alicia silverstone,
then only 19 years old. If youweren't stick thin in the 90s, you
were fat. And I'm saying thatas someone who grew up in the 90s
and saw the magazine articlesshowing girls and women with perfectly

(31:33):
slim figures being called outfor being, quote, too fat. Alicia
Silverstone looks great inthis movie, but she had to go through
horrendous body shaming, notonly from the press, but from the
crew. A production assistantmade a copy of a cartoon of the character
of Batgirl being squeezed intoa costume drawn by storyboard artist

(31:54):
Tim Burgard, which was calledclueless to the casting of Batgirl.
Rumors circulated thatSilverstone was struggling to fit
into her costume, despitetraining hard for the role and reportedly
losing 10 pounds. BobRingwood, the costume designer, saw
the cartoon and wasn't happyit was being circulated. Bergard
was never reprimanded becausehe never signed the work. Schumacher

(32:18):
would constantly stick up forSilverstone and wanted to use her
as a way to bring in theyounger female audience to the franchise.
Before filming ended, one ofMr. Freeze's blaster guns would disappear
from the set, leading to aninvestigation into the theft of the
item and police beinginvolved. David El Coobie, a Hollywood

(32:39):
memorabilia dealer with hisown store on Hollywood Boulevard,
had his home raided inNovember 1996, and he would be charged
with felony theft in January1997, initially for property valued
at more than $150,000. Nearly300 items were seized from his possession,
including an Ewok costume, asign from Jurassic Park, a plaque

(33:02):
featured in Dead Poet SocietyTom Cruise's fangs from Interview
with the Vampire, and a numberof items from the Star Trek franchise,
including a Borg eyepiece, aKlingon head, and Cardassian panels.
After it was difficult todetermine the value of items made
for film and TV and that hewas literally just a broker and not

(33:22):
the guy who stole anything, ElCoobi ultimately pleaded guilty to
one count of receiving stolenproperty. He spent three nights in
jail in 1998. The Mr. Priestgun would go on to sell for more
than $5,000 at auction inSeptember 2017. The OS effects on
this movie would take sixmonths to create. Batman and Robin

(33:44):
would feature 150 more visualeffects shots than Batman Forever,
with John Dykstra and AndrewAdamson credited as the visual effects
supervisors. And there weremultiple different stunt people for
each character. An ice skatingBatman, a gymnastic Batman, multiple
drivers. Batman and Robin hadseveral doubles as well as digital
doubles for the sky surfingscene where a skyborder was motion

(34:07):
captured in a wind tunnel.There were also multiple Mr. Freeze
doubles, mostly because theyonly had Arnold Schwarzenegger for
a limited time each day, soclose ups are him, but wide shots.
They would use a double anddespite filming starting late, the
movie was finished with twoweeks to span. A straightforward
production in many ways, butthe ice would soon hit the slushy

(34:30):
machine. But before we go intothat, it's time to segue into the
obligatory Keanu reference ofthis episode. And if you don't know
what that is, it's where Ilink the movie that I'm featuring
with Keanu Reeves for noreason other than here's the Best
of Men. This movie famouslydidn't have Val Kilmer and it came
out a week after a movie thatfamously didn't have Keanu Reeves

(34:53):
Speed two Cruise Control cameout a week before this movie, the
movie where Keanu jumped shipwhen he realized it would be a disaster.
The thing is, despite a fewrumblings of discontent, no one at
Warner Bros Realized what wascoming for Batman and Robin. Most
of any at Goldenthal's scoreis directly lifted from Batman Forever

(35:16):
as the opening theme is thesame as the previous one, just slowed
down slightly. The themes forMr. Freeze and Poison Ivy are modified
versions of Two Face and ChaseMeridian's respective themes, but
otherwise Elliot Goldenthaldid return to score Batman and Robin.
The soundtrack also featuresthe Smashing Pumpkins, Goo Goo Dolls,
remember and convicted sexualabuser R. Kelly. There's nothing

(35:39):
as iconic on the soundtrack asSeal or U2 though. No kiss from a
Rose for this soundtrack. Theworld premiere of Batman and Robin
was held on 12 June 1997 inWestwood, Los Angeles. The UK premiere
was heralded as the thenbiggest and most expensive movie
premiere held at BatterseaPower Station in London with the

(36:03):
building decorated to looklike Gotham City and Wayne Manor,
this movie was expected to bethe big summer blockbuster of 1997
and Warner Brothers went allout. They gave icicle pops to waiting
fans and rolled out $125million promotional drive including
themed Batman and Robin rollercoasters at Six Flags theme parks,

(36:27):
promotional campaign with TacoBell. The cast signed special trading
cards. There was also a tie inPlayStation game and there were toys.
So many toys. You could buymultiple versions of Batman, Robin,
Mr. Freeze, Bane, Poison Ivy,Batgirl. You could buy Batgirl's

(36:48):
Ice Strike Cycle. There weremultiple scale versions of Batman,
Batmobile, Mist of Praise'shenchman, Frostbite. You could also
buy him. There were 14different versions of Batman alone
including Wing Blast Batman,Snow Tracker, Batman, Thermal Shield,
Batman Battleboard, Batman andAmbush Attack Batman and Warner Brothers

(37:12):
wanted your child to have allof them. You can still buy these
figures online and Pricesrange from $24.99 for Ice Blade Batman
to $99.99 for Mr. Freeze.Vehicles are more expensive, packs
of characters even moreexpensive and then Batman and Robin

(37:33):
released on 20 June 1997, thesame week as My Best Friend's wedding.
That's episode 145 of thispodcast and in its first week it
went straight to number one atthe box office. It had the third
highest opening weekend grossof 1997, just behind Men in Black
and the Lost World, Jurassicpark and it was the seventh highest

(37:54):
non holiday opening weekend ofall time as of its release. But word
of mouth wasn't great and norwere the reviews. By its second week
it dropped 61% to fifth placebehind Hercules, Face Off, Men in
Black and My Best Friend'sWedding. Batman and Robin would only
stay in the top 10 for fiveweeks on its estimated 125 to $160

(38:20):
million budget. Batman andRobin would gross $107.3 million
domestically in the US and$130.9 million internationally, for
a total worldwide gross of$238.2 million, with at least $125
million spent on the movie andat least $125 million spent on marketing.

(38:42):
Batman and Robin didn't do aswell as Warner Bros. Had hoped. It
ended its box Office runnearly $100 million short of Batman
Forever. Critically, it alsodidn't do very well. Rotten Tomatoes
has this movie at 11%, thewebsite's consensus reads. Joel Schumacher's
tongue in cheek attitude hitsan unbearable limit in Batman and

(39:05):
Robin, resulting in a franticand mindless movie that's too jokey
to care much for. Batman andRobin was heavily criticized for
its script, direction, acting,toyetic approach, but it was praised
for its production values.Those Offending bat nipples, though,
became the one thing thismovie is most remembered for. Even

(39:27):
though technically theypremiered in Batman Forever, Batman
and Robin was nominated for 11Razzie Awards, winning Worst Supporting
Actress for AliciaSilverstone. It was also nominated
for five Stinkers Bad MovieAwards, winning four Worst Picture,
Worst Screenplay for a filmgrossing More than $100 million worldwide.
Using Hollywood math, WorstDirector and Worst Supporting Actress

(39:50):
again, Phil Silverstone. Butall throughout this, Warner Brothers
were so positive about thismovie and because they were during
the filming of Batman andRobin, they were so impressed with
the dailies. So even beforeBatman and Robin came out, they'd
hired Joel Schumacher toreturn as a director for Batman 5,
with Mark Protozevich hired towrite follow up. This would have

(40:15):
had the Scarecrow as the mainvillain. Reportedly would have been
coolio. He has a small cameoin this movie. It would have also
included Harley Quinn as asupporting character. The follow
up, which was called BatmanUnchained was already in development
when Batman and Robin wasreleased. A spin off focused on Robin
was also on the books. WarnerBros. Scrapped plans for Batman Unchained.

(40:38):
Clooney vowed to never reprisethe role again. All of the spin off
films were cancelled andWarner Brothers spent years going
through directors andscreenwriters before finally settling
on Christopher Nolan's pitchfor Batman Begins. And that is a
story for its own separate setof podcast episodes. My fondness
for Batman Forever is prettywell known, I think, by this point.

(41:00):
In fact, I love all theseBatman movies. The Tim Burton ones
are great. I lean more towardsReturns, to be honest, but I adore
Forever. And this one justfully embraces the camp, colorful,
zany Batman of the 60s TVshow. One of the first things we
see is close ups of Batman'sass and his chest, his crotch. Robin's

(41:20):
too. And it's almost settingyou up for this ain't your dad's
Batman. This Batman is a fullblown sex object and Poison Ivy knows
it. I bloody loving theThurman in this movie. I truly believe
she understood this assignmentand she just says line after line
of curses and darn foiledagain type lines that definitely

(41:41):
wouldn't have been out ofplace in the series. Not to mention
the cartoony sound effects. Ihalf expected to see a splat and
a kaboom show up at somepoint. Joel Schumacher spent much
of his life after this movieapologizing for this movie, as did
George Clooney, who stillapologizes for this movie, claiming
that he killed Batman. To thisday, pretty much everyone involved

(42:04):
in Batman and Robin seems atleast a little bit humiliated to
be associated with it. Exceptfor Arnold Schwarzenegger and Uma
Thurman, the whole bat nipplething was a ridiculously big deal
for some reason. So much sothat when Bob Kane, the creator of
Batman, died in 1998, hisaversion to those bat nipples was

(42:25):
mentioned in his obituary.Schumacher also batted questions
about the nipples constantly,usually just laughing them off. He
even joked that he expected tosee bat nipples on his headstone.
That didn't happen,thankfully, but when Schumacher died
in 2020, many of hisobituaries cited him as the man who

(42:45):
put nipples on the batsuit. Imean, what a legacy that man has.
Joel Schumacher had a greatsense of humor about this movie.
It's a shame most peopledon't. But it's also a shame that
Schumacher is ridiculed forthis movie because he made really
great movies in his life andyet everyone just ridicules him for
Batman and Robin. If you wentfrom Batman 1989 to Batman and Robin,

(43:09):
the terminal whiplash wouldsend you to the error where you'd
meet Doug Ross, played byGeorge Clooney. Schumacher primed
us with Batman Forever, whichis a heartfelt attempt to discuss
the duality of Batman anddelve into his psyche. I talk about
that a little in the episodeon Batman Forever, which I know you
listen to already, and thismovie half heartedly attempts to

(43:30):
give serious commentary on therelationship between Alfred and Bruce,
and Bruce having a fatherfigure who is seriously ill. But
mostly, this movie pays homageto the Golden Age comics and the
60s TV series. It may not beyour dad's Batman, it may not be
Burton's Batman, but it isstill Batman. The plot, if we can

(43:51):
call it a plot, is ludicrousand daft and silly, and has two villains
who want completely oppositethings, a frozen tundra and a planet
filled with plant monsterthings, neither of them realizing
that you can't have both. Thisis not a movie with any logic or
physics or science in any way,shape or form. This is a movie where

(44:13):
Batman and Robin go to amuseum, find the bad guy has frozen
everything, and magically haveice skates in their boots. It's a
movie where said bad guyliterally uses puns in every line.
Most of them don't make anysense. What killed the dinosaurs?
He asks before toppling agiant sauropod statue onto Batman.
The Ice Age. That isn't evenremotely true. The Ice Age was millions

(44:37):
of years later. Poison Ivycould be a stark warning about global
warming, environmentalism, theerosion of our natural world, but
all she does is flirt, set menoff against each other and plan the
extinction of humanity. Butshe looks great doing it, and Uma
Thurman really is having thebest time winking at the camera and
all the men around her fawningover her beauty. She's basically

(45:01):
here saying men are dumb andthey'll do anything for a pretty
girl. And you know what? Ihear you, Ivy. Say it like it is.
Sorry men, but I guaranteemost of you would fall under Ivy's
spell immediately. Althoughmaybe I'm also under her spell because
I genuinely think she's thebest thing in this movie. And damn
you Ivy. Damn you and yourpheromones. As for George Clooney,

(45:23):
I feel like he never stood achance. His Bruce Wayne was never
given anything to work with,and his Batman just disappears under
the weight of this campy neonworld with its enormous Greek statues
and gangs in black lightmakeup. Clooney is a good actor.
He's charismatic andinteresting to watch in anything
see out of Sight he made theyear after this. He is so good in

(45:46):
that movie. George Clooney hasthe looks, the talent and the charisma
to play both Bruce Wayne andBatman, and yet he's given nothing
but cheap gags and butt shots.He does have a great butt though.
I have talked about manydisaster productions on this podcast,
most recently Cutthroat islandand Tombstone both had issues Sometimes

(46:08):
it's obvious why a moviedoesn't work. Batman and Robin should
have worked. It could haveworked. No one intended to make a
bad movie. It had the sameteam behind it, but it also had an
extremely rushed productionschedule, with Schumacher later admitting
he felt pressured to deliver aproduct quickly rather than focus
on quality. The emphasis onvisual effects, costumes and set

(46:32):
pieces overshadowed characterdevelopment and coherent plot. It
was too toy focused andcertainly was fast tracked too quickly
for its own good. But whileSchumacher continued to take the
blame and apologized again andagain, the fault can't really lie
with him. The movie came in ontime, actually two weeks early and

(46:53):
on budget. There were noproduction issues. There were no
expensive reshoots. This waswhat Warner Brothers wanted, and
they learned their lesson, andimportantly, so did everyone else.
In 2009, Marvel StudiosPresident Kevin Feige said that Batman
and Robin may be the mostimportant comic book film ever made

(47:14):
because it was so bad. Itdemanded a new way of doing things.
It created the opportunity tomake X Men in 2000 and Spider man
in 2002 in a way thatrespected the source material to
a higher degree. It meant noyellow spandex for the X Men, but
it also meant casting genuinethespians alongside unknowns. It

(47:35):
was a serious story aboutoppression, fear mongering, and yes,
superheroes have always beenpolitical. The X Men have roots in
the civil rights movement andwork as an allegory for any marginalized
community. Most importantly, XMen wasn't made with just children
in mind and nor was Spiderman, despite it leaning towards the

(47:55):
camp and color of Batman andRobin. Thanks to this movie's failure,
other superhero movies got thechance to shine, tell compelling
stories, to be proud of theircomic book roots, and it changed
cinema as we know it. Andwhile George Clooney continues to
apologize for his Batman, 26years after the release of Batman
and Robin, he made a cameoappearance as Bruce wayne in the

(48:18):
2023 superhero film the Flash.Almost like a full circle moment
for a man who has openlyadmitted that he is ashamed of Batman
and Robin. For him to comeback and play this character again,
albeit for a brief cameo, musthave meant quite a lot. Sometimes
you need to hit rock bottom orbat bottom before you find your way

(48:40):
back up. Hollywood neededBatman and Robin so that we could
get the sort of grounded,recognizable human stories within
comic book adaptations that wecan't have silly, campy movies, but
that we weren't going to letHollywood insult our intelligence
and demean the importantmessages that come from our comic
book movies. And I for one amso happy this movie exists. Batman

(49:05):
and Robin. I'm cool with it.That's the last pun, I promise. That
is a bad pun. Thank you forlistening. As always, I would love
to hear your thoughts onBatman and Robin. And as always,
thank you for your continuedsupport of this podcast. If you want
to get involved and help thispodcast grow, that would be amazing

(49:25):
and I would be so thankful.You could simply tell people you
know, friends and family aboutthis podcast or about this episode,
help them download and listento it. You could leave a rating or
review wherever you found thispodcast, ideally five stars. Or you
can find me Follow me onsocial media. I am@VerbalDiorama.

(49:46):
You can share posts, commenton posts, like posts. It all helps
with spreading visibility ofthis podcast and about the work that
I am trying to do on thispodcast which is basically telling
these incredible stories aboutmovies that you may think are worthy
of those stories. I disagree.I think Batman and Robin is incredibly
worthy of this podcast. Ofcourse, if you like this episode

(50:09):
on Batman and Robin, there areplenty of other Batman episodes if
you haven't already listened.Episode 153 on Batman 1989, 183 on
Batman Returns, and 271 BatmanForever. I have no immediate plans
to go to Christopher NolanBatman's, but please let me know,
are the Christopher NolanBatman movies something that you

(50:31):
would be interested in hearingthe history and legacy of? They are
incredible movies. I know alot of people are huge fans of the
Christopher Nolan trilogy, soget in touch on social media or on
the email address that I'mjust about to tell you. Let me know,
would you like an episode onthe Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy?
And obviously give me feedbackon my recommendations. Now I'm going

(50:52):
to be taking a small break andthen come back with a movie that
has grown remarkably even moreprescient and important since its
initial release in 2021. Nowhow could a movie become more important
just four years later? Well,the world has changed a lot in that
time, and we live in a worldwhere women's bodily autonomy is

(51:12):
being stripped away piece bypiece. It feels like women's rights
are taking a step backwards.And this is a movie where young orphaned
girls are taken, brainwashed,forcibly sterilized, and turned into
elite assassins that have todo their leader's bidding. And this
is the Black Widow program. Orit was. And between the events of

(51:33):
Captain Civil War and InfinityWar, Natasha Romanoff was finally
given her own solo story, somemay say several years too late. Black
Widow is kind of lost in thegrand scheme of the MCU and rewatching
it recently. I enjoyed it muchmore than I did when it came out
in 2021. I genuinely thinkit's one of the MCU's hidden gems.

(51:57):
So I want to do an episode onthe history and Legacy of Black Widow
in the next episode. Kind of.Again, long time coming to this podcast
because I know I've talked topeople about doing Black Widow in
the past, but it is time totalk about Black Widow and it's also
time to introduce the McPugh.So please join me next episode for

(52:17):
the History and Legacy ofBlack Widow. If you enjoy what I
do for this podcast or yousimply want to support an indie podcaster
who does all of this on herown. If you have some spare change
and you want to financiallycontribute to the upkeep of this
podcast, you're under noobligation because this podcast is
free and it will always befree. However, there are a couple

(52:38):
of ways you can help if youhave the means to you can make a
one off donationverbaldiorama.com/tips or you can
subscribe to the patreon atverbaldiorama.com/ patreon all money
made goes back into thispodcast by paying for things like
software, subscriptions,website hosting or new equipment.

(52:59):
Huge thank you to the amazingpatrons of this podcast to Simon,
Laurel, Derek, Cat, Andy,Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott, Brendan,
Ian, Lisa, Sam, Jack, Dave,Stuart, Nicholas, so Kev, Heather,
Danny, Stu, Brett, Philip M,Xenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip K, Adam,

(53:19):
Elaine, Kyle and Aaron. If youwant to get in touch, you want to
talk about Batman and Robin orany episode of this podcast, feel
free to send me an email.Verbal dioramail.com you can also
go to verbal diorama.com andfill out the little contact form.
I would love to hear from yougenuinely. You can also message me

(53:40):
on social media or you can DMme on social media as well. Please
feel free to get in touch ifyou wish. And finally,

(54:50):
Bye.

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