August 14, 2025 • 52 mins
Natasha Romanoff. Daughter. Sister. Avenger.
Natasha made her Marvel Cinematic Universe debut in Iron Man 2 as a mysterious S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, quickly becoming a core member of the Avengers despite lacking superpowers. The character evolved from a supporting femme fatale into one of the MCU's most complex heroes; a former Russian child assassin grappling with her dark past while seeking redemption through heroic acts, and finally finding a family. Her journey culminated in the ultimate sacrifice in Avengers: Endgame, giving her life to obtain the Soul Stone and save the universe.
Marvel had been talking about a solo Black Widow film for years since her 2010 debut, but it had never come to pass. It's not the first time a solo film had been talked about for Natasha Romanoff. Lions Gate held the rights to the character in the early 2000s, but that movie idea was scuppered due to the failure of other female-led action movies.
Black Widow's solo film finally arrived in 2021, making it an eleven-year wait from her MCU introduction. The delay was attributed to Marvel's former leadership's reluctance to greenlight female-led superhero films, concerns about their commercial viability, as well as the planned Infinity Saga narrative needing to focus on introducing other characters, like Black Panther and Captain Marvel.
Black Widow would give fans a much-needed backstory for Natasha, as well as introduce her sister, Yelena. The importance of both characters extends beyond individual heroism to representation. Natasha proved female characters could carry major action sequences and emotional weight in the MCU, while Yelena's introduction ensures the Black Widow legacy continues, representing a new generation of complex female heroes who can anchor future MCU stories.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(02:40):
Hi, everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to Verbal Diorama, episode
308, Black Widow. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't. That has red
in her ledger and she'd liketo wipe it out. But can you wipe
out that much red? Welcome toVerbal Diorama. Whether you are a
(03:00):
brbrand-newandnewlistenertothispodcast,whetheryouarea regular
returning listener, thank youso much for being here. Thank you
so much for choosing to listento this podcast. I am, as always,
so happy to have you here forthe history and Legacy of Black Widow.
And if you are a regularreturning listener, thank you so
much for continuing to listento and support this podcast. Even
(03:22):
if you've only been here for alittle bit, whether you've been here
for the last six years andover 300 episodes, thank you so much
for your support. It genuinelymeans so much to have you come back
to this podcast and hopefullyenjoy this podcast enough for you
to come back to this podcast.And of course, having over 300 episodes
of a film history podcastmeans that if I need to take a break,
(03:45):
I can rely on some of thearchive to fill in the gap. And that's
why the archival Supermanepisodes have been on the feed for
the last couple of weeks.Because I was due to take a week
off and then I started to feela bit poorly so I decided to take
another week. But luckily I'vegot plenty of old episodes in the
arsenal to kind of bring outand introduce to people who maybe
(04:08):
haven't listened to thoseepisodes. Previous to the Superman
episode was Batman and Robin,which has honestly just done so remarkably
well. People love the JoelSchumacher Batmans and I'm so here
for it. I wish we could havehad more Joel Schumacher Batmans.
We didn't know. But what we dohave is a beautiful time capsule
of how our superhero moviescould have been had it all been different.
(04:31):
But I am back after a coupleof weeks off and I'm back with more
superheroes on purpose becauseI re watched Black Widow a couple
of months ago and I liked itso much more than I did the first
time I saw. Feels a littlelike the black sheep of the MCU in
so many ways. A movie madeafter it should have been, but also
(04:52):
a movie that has become moreimportant as time has progressed.
In 2010, Scarlett Johanssonbrought Natasha Romanoff to life
in Iron Man 2. Since then,she's appeared in seven different
Marvel movies, more than anyother Avenger except Robert Downey
Jr's Iron man and ChrisEvans's Captain America. Both of
those characters have hadthree solo films, with Cap technically
(05:16):
now having four. Since SamWilson is the new Captain America
in addition to screen time,Black Widow is more than just the
token woman in the Avengers.Natasha was the soul of the mMCUcu,acharacterwho
delved into her owncheckchequerederedpast,atruepioneerofredemption,carryingtheweight of
her own sin and her previousactions. Despite all of that, we
(05:38):
didn't get a Black Widow solomovie. Fans saw the value of Natasha
beyond her skin, tightcatsuits and crushing thighs. And
despite a few issues with herstorylines over the years, yes, I'm
predominantly looking at you.Age of Ultron, female representation
within the wider MCU wasgetting better. But we still didn't
get another female hero till2014 when Gamora showed up. And still
(06:03):
the Black Widow solo movienever came until 2021. After the
character had sacrificedherself to save humanity in 2019's
Endgame, Natasha finally wipedout the red in her ledger. But the
question remains, why didn'twe get a solo Black Widow movie during
the peak of the MCU? Why didshe? And we have to wait 11 years?
(06:28):
And once she got her solomovie, Scarlett Johansson sued Disney.
Don't worry, they're friendsagain. Now. Here's the trailer for
Black Widow.
(08:46):
Set between the events ofCaptain Civil War and Avengers Infinity
War, Natasha Romanov is afugitive for violating the Sokovia
Accords and flees to a safehouse in Norway, aided by Rick Mason,
who gives her mail from hersafe house in Budapest. When Natasha
is attacked by an unknownassailant who can replicate her every
move, she realizes that theattacker wants something in her mail.
(09:10):
She escapes with vials of redgas sent to her by her sister Yelena.
Going back to Budapest, shefinds Yelena, who was previously
under the control of Dreykov,a man Natasha thought long dead who
runs the Black Widow program.The same program she escaped from.
Dreykov is kidnapping andbrainwashing young girls and women
(09:31):
with the gas in those vials.And together, Natasha and Yelena,
along with their adoptiveparents, must destroy the Red Room
once and for all. Let's runthrough the cast. We have Scarlett
Johansson as Natasha Romanov,AKA Black Widow. Florence Pugh as
Yelena Belova David Harbour asAlexei Shostakov, AKA Red Guardian
(09:53):
Ot Fagbenli as Rick Mason,Olga Kurylenko as Antonia Dreykov,
AKA Taskmaster William Hurt asThaddeus Ross Ray Winston as Dreykov,
and Rachel Weisz as MelinaVostokoff. Black Widow has a screenplay
by Eric Pearson, story by JackSchaefer and Ned Benson, was directed
(10:16):
by Kate Shortland, and wasbased on the Marvel Comics. The character
of Black Widow was firstintroduced into the MCU in Iron Man
2 in 2010, posing as Starkemployee Natalie Rushman. Natasha
Romanov, or Natalia AlionovnaRomanova, to give her her canonical
full name, was an expert spytrained in the Red Room in Russia
(10:39):
as a child assassin, laterrecruited and defected to the United
States working for SHIELDalongside her closest friend Clint
Barton. Natasha not onlybecame the only female founding member
of the Avengers, her ongoingtreatment within the MCU was both
widely praised and and widelycriticized for several reasons. The
(11:00):
character of Black Widow firstappeared in Tales of suspense number
52 in 1964 as a villain forIron man, created by Stan Lee, Don
Rico, and Don Heck, but notreally looking like the Black Widow.
We now know this Black Widowwas a seductress, only spying on
Tony Stark for the Sovietgovernment. Despite that initial
(11:22):
appearance as an enemy, thecharacter was reformed as a hero
in The Avengers number 30 in1960 after appearing in previous
issues and switching sidesafter her newfound love for Hawkeye
fixed her Soviet brainwashing.The most significant aspect of her
origin involves the Red Room,a secret Soviet training facility.
(11:43):
According to her backstory,Natasha was taken as a child and
subjected to intensivetraining in espionage, combat, and
assassination. The program wasdesigned to create perfect female
operatives, with Natasha beingone of their most successful graduates.
In the comics, Natashareceived a version of the Super Soldier
Serum similar to what createdCaptain America, which slowed her
(12:07):
aging process and enhanced herphysical capabilities. This explains
how she could remain activefor decades, having allegedly been
active Since World War II insome versions of her history. Yelena
Belova debuted in Inhumansvol.2.5 in March 1999 and appeared
fully in the miniseries BlackWidow in 1999 as the second incarnation
(12:31):
of the Black Widow afterNatasha Romanoff. Canonically, Natasha
and Yelena were not sistersand actually didn't get on all that
well. Yelena Belova would alsotransform into a version of the Super
Adaptoid, a human machinehybrid that can copy the powers of
the New Avengers. Natasha, asa comic book hero with no obvious
(12:51):
powers except for being smart,strong and capable, meant she had
all the attributes needed fora live action version of her character.
But her appearance in the MCUwasn't the first time the character
of Natasha Romanoff was goingto appear on the big screen in the
early 2000s, X Men and Spiderman had proven there was a market
for big screen comic bookadaptations starring a variety of
(13:15):
characters, as well as theBourne Identity and Mission Impossible
series, showing that spymovies were popular. And in 2004,
Lionsgate Entertainment wasgranted a license by Marvel Enterprises
to produce and distributetheatrical films on two specific
Marvel characters. Lionsgatehad already acquired artisan entertainment
(13:36):
in 2003, and with that hadacquired the Punisher, which had
a midi version due out inApril 2004, starring Thomas Jane
and John Travolta. So they hadthe Punisher on their books already,
but now they also had DannyRand, AKA Iron Fist, and the Soviet
Union's premier spy, NatashaRomanoff, AKA Black Widow. The Punisher
(14:00):
was a financial and criticaldisappointment, and the planned sequel
instead became the rebootPunisher Warzone, with Ray Stevenson
replacing Thomas Jane. Butthey had high hopes for Black Widow,
which would require lessflashy special effects than most
comic book adaptations, andcould remain grounded whilst also
capitalizing on a sector ofthe market that was mostly untouched
(14:23):
at the time. Women. In April2004, David Hayter was announced
as the writer and director ofa Black Widow movie with Marvel Studios
Avi Arad producing. Hayter hadpreviously worked on the X Men films
and was known for his work onvideo game adaptations. And most
importantly, he was a huge fanof the character, even naming his
(14:45):
baby daughter born in 2004,Black Widow, a kid. She's actually
named Natasha, but she's namedNatasha after the character. Between
2003 and 2006, when hefinished his final draft, several
female led action movies cameout, including Underworld, Kill Bill,
and most importantly,Catwoman, Elektra and Aeon Flux.
(15:09):
Catwoman and Elektra were bothcomic book movies, and I'm going
to come back to both of themlater. But Aeon Flux was the main
culprit in 2005 for sinkingLionsgate's Black Widow movie. Fearing
a quote unquote action chickbomb, Lionsgate dropped Black Widow
in 2006, which was going to bea contemporary realistic espionage
(15:31):
adventure set in Kazakhstan.Later, Marvel and Hayter did attempt
to sell it to other studios,but Hayter felt no one was taking
the character seriously.Hayter wouldn't have to wait very
long to see the character inlive action, despite his lack of
involvement. And then Ironman, that's definitely coming to
a future episode. But Iron Man2 went into development straight
(15:54):
after the success of iron manin 2008, and lo and behold, Black
Widow was included as part ofthe cast. And in 2009 Marvel started
talks with Emily Blunt, JonFavreau's first choice to play the
character. However, she wasunable to take it due to commitments
to her role in Gulliver'sTravels. Meanwhile, Scarlett Johansson
had met with Jon Favreau andKevin Feige a year before. Pre production
(16:17):
even started on Iron Man 2about roles in the forthcoming MCU,
one of them being Black Widow,another being the Scarlet Witch.
So when Favreau calledJohansson in for a meeting, she dyed
her hair red to match BlackWidow in the comics, mostly to experiment
with the colour, but alsohopeful that Favreau would appreciate
the sentiment. It turns outthat he did, and Johansson felt the
(16:40):
Black Widow characterresonated with her as a superhero
but also as a human being. Sheadmitted to freaking out when she
saw the character's iconicblack catsuit and trained hard with
trainers on stunts andstrength training and retrospectively
in publicity for the eventualBlack Widow movie. She'd also comment
on the sexualized way BlackWidow was introduced into the MCU
(17:01):
and how they attempted toevolve her beyond that. In September
2010, Marvel Studios PresidentKevin Feige said that discussions
with Johansson had alreadytaken place regarding a Black Widow
standalone film, but Marvel'sfocus was on the crossover film The
Avengers in 2012. Throughoutthe 2000 and tens, Johansson appeared
in Iron Man 2, The Avengers,Captain the Winter Soldier, Age of
(17:26):
Ultron, Captain Civil War,Infinity War and Endgame. And it's
safe to say that no one atMarvel Studios anticipated how popular
Black Widow would become withaudiences after the release of Age
of Ultron. Johansson revealedthat the number of films on her contract
had been adjusted since shefirst signed to match the demand
(17:47):
of the character. By the time2014 rolled around, a treatment had
been written for a Black Widowmovie by Guardians of the Galaxy
writer Nicole Perlman. DavidHayter expressed a wish to revive
the project he was sopassionate about with Marvel, and
Kevin Feige was alluding tothe fact that the studio would love
to see the character exploredfurther. But back to Catwoman and
(18:10):
Elektra and a leaked 2014email purportedly from Marvel Entertainment
CEO Ike Perlmutter to MichaelLinton, Sony's CEO, following up
on a phone call between thepair. Its subject was female movies
and it's dated 7 August 2014at 5:32am and it reads quote Michael,
(18:33):
as we discussed on the phone.Below are just a few examples. There
are more. Thanks Ike. 1.Elektra Marvel Very bad idea and
the end result was very, verybad. 2. Catwoman WBDC Catwoman was
one of the most importantfemale characters within the Batman
franchise. This film was adisaster. 3. Supergirl DC Supergirl
(18:59):
was one of the most importantfemale superhero in Superman franchise.
This movie came out in 1984and did $14 million total domestic
with opening weekend of $5.5million. Again, another disaster.
Best Ike unquote. Kevin Feigeall but directly addressed Perlmutter's
(19:20):
emails in a 2014 interviewwith Comic Book Resources saying
quote, I very much believethat it's unfair to say people don't
want to see movies with femaleheroes, then missed five movies that
were not very good and theydon't mention Hunger Games, Frozen,
Divergent, you can go back toKill Bill or Aliens. These are all
female led movies. It cancertainly be done. Ike Perlmutter
(19:45):
believed female superheroesdidn't sell and he had considerable
power. As then CEO of MarvelEntertainment, Perlmutter served
as the head of Marvel throughits acquisition by Disney in 2009
and oversaw development onevery film from Iron man to Age of
Ultron. In 2015, Disneyreorganized leadership so studio
(20:06):
president Kevin Feige wouldreport directly to the Walt Disney
Studios chairperson and notPerlmutter. The restructuring was
reportedly due to Feige'sfrustration of working with Perlmutter
and his outdated opinionsabout casting budgets and merchandising,
as well as alleged commentsand actions by Perlmutter that were
sexist and racist in nature.It's no surprise that Perlmutter
(20:30):
was a supporter of the whatsitDictator in Chief. I think you know
who I'm talking about.Perlmutter's sidelining coincided
with a notable increase inMarvel Studios focus on diversity
and inclusiveness. This wouldlead to the studio making groundbreaking
films like Black Panther in2018, which would never have been
made under Perlmutter andCaptain Marvel, the studio's first
(20:53):
female led movie in 2019,which are two of the highest grossing
movies in the entire franchisepurely because finally we got a black
superhero and a femalesuperhero from the biggest studio
in the world. ThroughoutPerlmutter's leadership, Marvel kept
Natasha Romanoff out ofAvengers merchandise. Her merchandise
(21:14):
was a fraction of what existedfor her male counterparts. She had
none. For her debut In IronMan 2, she did get an action figure
for the Avengers, but of the88 official age of Ultron products,
she was only available on 6.She was infamously replaced from
one of her most badass scenesin Age of Ultron, riding her motorcycle
(21:34):
through South Korea on the toyversion of the bike with Captain
America. And this isn't just aBlack Widow thing, because Gamora
was missing from GuardiansToys too. A Trump supporter being
a misogynist? Surely not. In2019, Perlmutter lost further power
when Feige was promoted to CCOof Marvel Studios, putting him in
(21:56):
control of Marvel TV andMedia, which Perlmutter formally
oversaw. Perlmutter waseventually fired from the company
in 2023, but it's not reallyjust Ike Perlmutter to blame, because
the vision of the MCU alsodidn't seem to include anything other
than Natasha being asupporting part to other people's
stories, such as undoubtedlyher best role in Captain America,
(22:20):
the Winter Soldier. Natashawas used to bring other characters
into stories like meetingBruce Banner in the Avengers, which
is also standout, and meetingt' Challa in Captain Civil War. With
the Infinity Saga nearing itsend, it made more sense to go to
Wakanda than it did to exploreNatasha. And then we got Captain
(22:40):
Marvel as the first female ledmovie in the mcu again because it
served the greater purpose ofthe MCU to introduce Carol at that
time and I love that movie soI have no complaints. But fans were
naturally unhappy that a fanfavorite was being sidelined, and
despite both Feige andJohansson suggesting a movie for
Black Widow was comingthroughout the 2010s when they were
(23:02):
asked, it wasn't until October2017 that the ball really started
rolling when Marvel beganmeeting with potential writers, including
Jessica Gough, who would go onto create and write the Disney plus
series she Hulk Attorney atLaw. Her pitch for a Black Widow
movie heavily featured sheHulk as a supporting character. Feige
(23:23):
also met with Jack Schaeferand she was hired in December 2017.
One other thing that the MCUhadn't been the best with, apart
from highlighting femalestars, was hiring female directors
like ever. At that point, AnnaBowden had been hired to be a co
director for Captain Marvel,but for Black Widow, Marvel focused
(23:44):
on finding a sole femaledirector and met with over 65, including
Chloe Zhao, who would go on todirect Eternals, Amma Asante, Coralie
Fargate, Kimberly Pierce,Maggie Betts, Lynn Shelton and Lucretia
Martell. Scarlett Johanssonhad approached Kate Shortland personally
about potentially directingthe movie after seeing her film.
(24:05):
Law. Shortland was hired inJuly 2018. Johansson was also executively
producing Black Widow, thefirst time any Avenger had executively
produced their own solo filmin the mcu. Chris Hemsworth executively
produced Love and Thunder ayear later in 2022. Ned Benson was
(24:26):
hired in February 2019 torewrite the script and Eric Pearson
was hired during preproduction to rewrite it again. Pearson
received the sole screenplaycredit, with Benson and Schaefer
receiving story credits. Themovie was due to be set after civil
war and find Natasha alonewith the other Avengers scattered
or incarcerated and no longertied to The Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D.
(24:50):
the main source of inspirationwas the TV show the Americans, set
during the Cold War about anundercover Russian spy family living
in a Washington D.C. suburb.This setup would introduce Natasha
as a child living in theMidwestern United States with her
quote unquote family, hermother, father and her younger sister
Yelena posing as a traditionalall American family until they steal
(25:15):
SHIELD intel and have tosuddenly flee to Cuba with the young
girls separated and forced tothe Red Room for training as widows,
training that most littlegirls fail at and are subsequently
killed. It is a dark openingto the movie, which isn't that surprising
when you have Natasha'sinherent darkness and her shame at
her past. Marvel and Piersonhad heated conversations about how
(25:39):
dark Natasha's story could be,but Pearson successfully argued the
case to show Dreykov'sdaughter, first mentioned by Loki
in the Avengers as a primarysource of pain and regret for Natasha,
and while also fleshing outthe Budapest story that both Clint
Barton and Natasha hadfrequently mentioned. For Natasha's
sister, it made sense for thisto be Yelena Belova, a longtime associate
(26:03):
of Black Widow in the comics,with a complex antagonistic relationship
that softened as thecharacters developed a grudging respect
for each other and laterstories explored their shared trauma
as survivors of the Red Room.Yelena's character was used to explore
themes around what Natashamight have become if she hadn't defected.
(26:23):
She represented both Natasha'spast and an alternate path, someone
who initially embraced the RedRoom's ideology rather than rejecting
it. But fundamentally, bothNatasha and Yelena lost their innocence,
with Yelena suffering more forit for being younger when she was
taken from the only familyshe'd ever known. Now, if you think
(26:44):
creating a comic bookcharacter makes you super wealthy
once they star in a big Marvelmovie, you'd be wrong. To use the
character of Yelena, Marvelhad to pay her creators, writer Devin
Grayson and artist JG Jones,who had both signed special character
agreement deals $25,000 forYelena's use in a theatrical film
(27:05):
appearance. However, buriedwithin the document's small print
was language that grantedMarvel broad discretion to dramatically
lower payments, leading toMarvel only paying them $5,000. It
was only after Grayson went tothe press that Marvel agreed to pay
her the remaining $7,500 itowed her. And if you don't sign an
(27:27):
agreement, you don't get paidat all. It's why many artists and
writers go down the indieroute, because they actually get
better returns and morecreative control that way than they
do with big companies likeMarvel and dc. Marvel offered the
role of Yelena to SaoirseRonan, who passed, but then they
saw Fighting with My Family,which is episode 248 of this podcast,
(27:51):
and Florence Pugh wasreceiving rave reviews. And isn't
that just an apt title for thefamilial relationships in this movie
too? Pugh was cast in April2019 alongside David Harbour, Rachel
Weiss and O.T. fagbenley. Alsocast in the movie was the then 12
year old Eva Anderson,daughter of Milla Jovovich and director
(28:12):
Paul W.S. anderson as theyoung Natasha. Anderson is a fluent
Russian speaker, which wouldcome in handy with the scenes filmed
in Russian. Taskmaster wasincluded in early versions of the
script as a villain, the TonyMasters version from the comic, but
this was changed to be AntoniaDrakov to fit the narrative that
Dreykov subdues and controlsall women, including his daughter,
(28:37):
long thought dead by Natasha.Bond girl Olga Kurylenko was cast
as Antonia Dreykov with herfather Dreykov, played by Ray Winston.
Winston would call theexperience soul destroying and after
some negative feedback on hisperformance, he actually wanted to
leave the production and havehis role recast. However, contractual
(28:58):
obligations meant that he hadto stick around for reshoots. Principal
photography started on 28 May2019 in Norway, moved to Pinewood
Studios here in the UK in June2019, then on location in Surrey
in July, before moving toGeorgia in the US in September and
then to Morocco in October.Filming lasted for 87 days and wrapped
(29:22):
on 6 October 2019, with aplanned release in 2020. Yes, 2020
strikes again. Anyway, beforewe talk about 2020, let's segue into
something a lot nicer to talkabout, which is the obligatory Keanu
reference of this episode. Andif you don't know what that is, it's
(29:44):
where I link the movie thatI'm featuring with Keanu Reeves.
And for a long time Keanu wasfan casted for the role of taskmaster
in the MCU, and in 2019 KevinFeige mentioned in an interview that
he'd met with Reeves with aview to discuss a role in a Marvel
project. So there was somespeculation among fans that the stars
had aligned and Keanu wasindeed Taskmaster. But he wasn't,
(30:08):
and he's one of very fewactors who still haven't been involved
with the studio in any way,shape or form, but who knows, maybe
soon. Let's move on to themusic though, because Alexandre Desplat
was originally announced to becomposing the score, but he was replaced
in post production by LorneBalfe. He wrote an original piece
(30:29):
in the style of Russian folkmusic that he used to develop the
rest of Natasha's motifs. AsCOVID lockdowns were affecting post
production, studio recordingsessions also began to shut down,
but Balfe managed to get therecordings completed on time. Black
Widow is also only one of fewMarvel movies that has a pre credits
(30:50):
introduction to set up thechildhoods of Natasha and Yelena,
and it includes a title designby Emmy nominated design lab Perception.
The team compiled oldphotographs, created documents and
directed live action footageto chronicle Natasha's past in the
Widow program. While they shotthe footage at 8K high resolution,
(31:11):
they used a series of customdigital and analog methods to match
the aesthetics of 8 millimeterfilm, 90s digital video and VHS set
to a cover of Nirvana SmellsLike Teen Spirit by thinkapanga featuring
Marlia J, which was suggestedby Perception. It is raw, gritty
and intentionally somber. Thisis not your average MCU movie. This
(31:37):
one is set on earth with realpeople doing nasty real people stuff.
And I really love that coverof Smells Like Teen Spirit as well.
I think it suits the movieabsolutely perfectly so Black Widow
was originally scheduled forrelease in May 2020, which for obvious
Covid based reasons did not goahead. Disney retained the May 2020
(31:59):
release date despite other bigmovies like no Time to Die, shifting
theirs early on in thepandemic. Disney kept that May 2020
release date up until earlyMarch 2020, but then cinemas across
the US started closing theirdoors and Disney removed Black Widow
from its May 2020 releaseslot. They then rescheduled it for
(32:21):
November 2020 and shiftedother Phase 4 movies back to accommodate
the change in schedule. InSeptember 2020, with COVID still
raging across the world,Disney pushed the release back again
to May 2021, also pushingShang Chi back. For reasons I'll
come to, Black Widow had tohave a theatrical release, but Covid
(32:43):
was making the situationincreasingly difficult. In late March
2021, Disney announced BlackWidow was moving dates again to 9
July 2021 and announced thatit would be released simultaneously
in theaters and on Disney withpremier access. To accommodate, quote
the evolving preferences ofaudiences, several studios had started
(33:08):
experimenting withsimultaneous theatrical and streaming
releases, and during that yearDisney released some of its planned
but postponed 2020 releaseslike Mulan and Raya and the Last
Dragon via Disney PremiereAccess, with subscribers paying an
additional $30 a film tostream the movie at home. But in
(33:30):
July 2021, Scarlett Johanssonfiled a lawsuit against Disney over
breach of contract, allegingthat the studio broke its agreement
with her when they decided torelease Black Widow simultaneously
in theaters and on Disneyplus. Court documents filed by Johansson
detailed that the dealguaranteed an exclusive theatrical
(33:51):
release and that her salaryfor the film was largely tied to
box office performance. Disneyissued a statement in response to
the suit saying it had nomerit whatsoever and that Johansson
had shown a, quote, callousdisregard for the horrific and prolonged
global effect of the COVID 19pandemic, unquote, that the company
(34:12):
claimed they had fullycomplied with Johansson's contract
and that the Disney plusPremiere Access release of the film
had significantly enhanced herability to earn additional compensation
beyond the $20 million she hadalready received. In response, her
agent, Brian Lord, fired back,condemning Disney's response as,
(34:32):
quote, shamelessly and falselyaccusing Ms. Johansson of being insensitive
to the global COVID pandemic,unquote, and accusing the company
of leaving artistic andfinancial partners out of their streaming
profits, and denounced thedisclosure of Johansson's $20 million
earnings as, quote, an attemptto weaponize her success as an artist
(34:53):
and businesswoman, as if thatwas something she should be ashamed
of, unquote. Disney werefirmly between a rock and a hard
place, though, as theiraggressive post endgame scheduling
meant the TV series Hawkeyewas due to premiere, which also featured
Florence Pugh's Yelena andfollowed on from the story of Black
Widow. And they had alreadydelayed Black Widow a year after
(35:17):
Disney filed a motion to movethe lawsuit to arbitration in August
2021. Johansson and Disneyreached a settlement over the lawsuit
a month later, and terms ofthe settlement were not disclosed.
The settlement came afterDisney chose to give theatrical only
releases to subsequent 2021films, following the box office success
(35:38):
of Shang Chi and Free Guy,which both received exclusive theatrical
windows when initiallyreleased. Black Widow was released
on 7th July 2021 in cinemasworldwide and on 9th July 2021 in
the US and also simultaneouslyon Disney Plus. It went to number
one in its first week incinemas. Movies were being released
(36:01):
but not often, and Black Widowwas the only major studio release
that week because no otherstudio would want their movie taking
on an MCU movie. Black Widowwas out at the Same Time as F9, the
Fast Saga, the Boss Baby 2,the Forever Purge, A Quiet Place
Part 2 and Cruella thefollowing week Black Widow was dethroned
(36:22):
from its number one spot bySpace Jam. A new legacy. And it's
unfortunate really, becausenow Black Widow is often mentioned
when you hear talk of Marvel'slowest grossing movies. And that's
not untrue. It is one of thelowest. But other Marvel movies didn't
come out during a pandemic.Black Widow was the first movie of
(36:43):
Phase 4 and the first to comeout during COVID It was followed
by Shang Chi and Eternals,which only earned 50 and 20 million
dollars more respectively. Andthey didn't have a simultaneous release
on Disney. In fact, both hadan exclusive 45 day release in cinemas.
Black Widow actually had themost ticket Pre sales of 2021. It
(37:07):
grossed $183.7 milliondomestically in the US and $196.1
million internationally, for atotal worldwide gross of $379.8 million.
But that doesn't take intoaccount the Disney Plus Premier Access.
It was the first film thatDisney revealed. Premier Access revenue
(37:27):
for the film's opening weekendearned $226.2 million globally, which
include $80.4 million at thedomestic box office, $78.8 million
at the international boxoffice, and $67 million in Disney
Plus Premier Access globalrevenue. When you take the Disney
(37:47):
Plus Premier Access intoaccount, Black Widow actually has
the third largest opening foran MCU origin movie behind Black
Panther and Captain Marvel. Italso became the third most pirated
film of the pandemic, withover 20 million pirated views. And
it's estimated that this levelof piracy cost Disney Approximately
(38:10):
$600 million of lost revenuefrom this movie. So in a slightly
different time period, in aslightly different version of this
universe, with no Covid or aslightly different version of this
movie that maybe came outseveral years earlier, this movie
could have been absolutelyhuge for Marvel and could have made
a hell of a lot of money. Butcircumstances Black Widow has a score
(38:34):
on rotten tomatoes of 79% withthe critical consensus reading. Black
Widow's deeper themes aredrowned out in all the action, but
it remains a solidlyentertaining standalone adventure
that's rounded out by astellar supporting cast. Critics
praised Johansson and Pugh aswell as its gritty tone and the fact
it diversifies the MCU with ahigh octane espionage thriller. Black
(38:59):
Widow was also one of 28 filmsthat received the reframe stamp for
2021, which is awarded by theGender Equality Coalition Reframe
for films that are proven tohave gender balanced hiring on how
Many women are involved in aproduction in front of and behind
the camera. Other movies underthe Disney umbrella awarded that
(39:19):
year included Cruella, Encantoand Eternals. While Natasha's story
is over and her sacrifice inEndgame still poignant, the MCU moves
on because Yelena is stillaround. And Yelena is still dealing
with her own trauma afterlosing her family, becoming a mind
controlled assassin, findingher sister, getting blipped, coming
(39:41):
back to find her sister isdead, becoming a contract killer
and almost killing ClintBarton. From a three episode appearance
in Hawkeye through to thisyear's Thunderbolts. Which is great
by the way. Really enjoyedthat. Yelena is due to return in
Avengers Doomsday next year in2026, so welcome to the MCQ. Taskmaster
(40:01):
would also return inThunderbolts. One of the things that
stands out the most for me,and seeing how far the MCU particularly
has come over its almost 18years of existence, is Black Widow.
I'm talking about thecharacter, not so much the movie,
but the movie plays a part.Natasha Romanoff was for so long
(40:22):
the only major femalecharacter and with that was projected
everything your sole femalecharacter needed to be. She needed
to be pretty, she needed to befunny, she needed to have trauma
but be totally okay with it.She needed to service the men in
the story, she needed to kickass, she needed to look good doing
it. And she needed to have noflaws, nothing visible anyway. She's
(40:47):
Scarlett Johansson, one of themost beautiful women in the world
and now the highest grossinglead actor of all time. But Black
Widow needed to do this whilealso being hypersexualized. Johansson
has acknowledged this herself.It was almost a prerequisite. In
press for this movie shementioned how the character was underestimated
(41:08):
and undervalued by this lensof the male gaze. In Iron Man 2,
Tony Stark says he wants one,and having developed and built this
character over her manyappearances, Johansson didn't want
that. For Natasha, the era ofthe femme fatale is over. Compare
the introduction of Natasha inIron Man 2 to the introduction of
(41:29):
Yelena. Yelena is just asphysically attractive and fit as
Natasha, just as agile andadept with a firearm. But Yelena
is allowed to exist, isallowed to be feminine and vulnerable
as well as smart and tough.The whole jabs at Natasha's posing
was on set banter betweenFlorence Pugh and Scarlett Johansson
(41:49):
that ended up being writteninto the script because Natasha's
early poses were silly. Nowthis hypersexualization didn't start
with the mcu. It started withher depiction in the comics, but
it shows how the MCU hasmatured and how executives have actually
started listening to theactors and the fans. It undoubtedly
comes as well from Johanssonbeing an executive producer and having
(42:13):
that say in how she wants thecharacter to be depicted. But I love
that she recognized that andthat they've chosen to not go that
way with Yelena. Yelena can beeverything Natasha was, but she doesn't
have to be perfect and shedoesn't have to service the needs
of men. Yelena has flaws, andthis movie allows Natasha to have
(42:33):
the same and for her to befinally free of some of her demons
before her inevitable end inEndgame. But most importantly, we
get a pass for a characterthat has no future. Yes, this movie
should have come way sooner,but did it cheapen Natasha's death?
In many ways, it deepened it.Natasha did what she did for Clint,
but she also inadvertentlybrought back Yelena. It didn't need
(42:56):
to do anything other than tellyou more about Natasha to spend more
time with her, which isaccomplished here. This movie is
not here to further the widermcu, nor was it here to somehow bring
Natasha back to life. Itexisted to bring us more of a character
that we know was dead and tointroduce another and to give us
Rachel voice. Obligatory mummyreference. It feels sad. This is
(43:19):
the first time I've mentionedRachel voice, but this movie, there's
a lot of other stuff to talkabout. Ray Winston may have not enjoyed
this movie, but Dreykov is animportant tool in Natasha's forgiveness
of herself and of her actions.He is such a monster and hates women
so much that even his owndaughter is a commodity for him to
(43:40):
control. His end is adding nomore red to anyone's ledger. His
end is freeing all the widows,including Antonia Dreykov, from the
evil clutches of a man whosees women as nothing more than controllable
killing machine. These womenare now free to live their lives
as they see fit. They're giventheir humanity back, their rights
(44:00):
back, and their autonomy back.And the reason I felt this movie
resonated much more now thanit did in 2021 is for many reasons,
but also because of Roe vs.Wade and the overturning of Roe v.
Wade. Something that does notaffect me here in the uk, but it
does affect millions of womenin the us. Millions of women who
(44:21):
are being forced against theirwill to use their bodies in ways
that they would not consent tohad they had the means to acquire
reproductive rights services,not just abortions, but general reproductive
health care, includingcontraception. Cervical screenings
and STI testing. The widows inthis movie are vessels too brainwashed
to do the bidding of Dreykovuntil their bodies can't do it anymore.
(44:45):
They are forced by a man touse their bodies in ways they would
not otherwise do. And in apost Roe v. Wade world, this screams
so much of protecting women'sbodily autonomy and giving a woman
the right to choose becausethese women would not otherwise choose
this life. They were younggirls kidnapped from families, forced
(45:05):
to become sterilised andforced to become killers. Natasha
and Jelena's ultimate quest tofree these women is a powerful statement
that it's every woman'sresponsibility to be there for other
women. And that resonated somuch with me as a woman and as a
supporter of women that forNatasha's final appearance in the
mcu, she's no longer servingthe men, but serving the women. And
(45:30):
then in Endgame, she's servingeveryone. Natasha has no future,
but she now has a past andit's remarkably soulful, bittersweet,
funny and tragic. And wefinally know what happened in Budapest.
But most importantly, Natashadied knowing she was loved by her
family and her family. And shehad a great vest with so many pockets.
(45:57):
Thank you for listening. Asalways, I would love to hear your
thoughts on Black Widow andthank you for your continued support
of this podcast. If you wantto get involved and help this podcast
grow and reach more people,you could tell your friends and family
about this podcast or aboutthis episode. You can leave a ideally
five star rating or reviewwherever you found this podcast.
And you can also find me andfollow me on social media. I am at
(46:20):
verbaldiorama cross socialmedia where you can like post, comment
on posts, share post, reply toposts, DM me, all of the above. I
am more than happy to hearfrom you and to hear your thoughts
as well. And if you like thisepisode on Black Widow, you might
also like the followingprevious episodes that I've done
around this character andthere are quite a few episode 72
(46:43):
Captain America the WinterSoldier which still remains the best
version of Natasha that's everbeen put to screen, even including
this movie. Because I loveNatasha in the Winter Soldier Episode
73 Captain Civil War Episode97 the Avengers Episode 98 Age of
Ultron Episode 99 AvengersInfinity War and wouldn't you guess
(47:06):
Episode 100 Avengers Endgame.As always, give me feedback, let
me know what you think ofthose episodes. And for the next
episode we are going fromblack to red and another spin off
solo female led movie basedsomewhat on Marvel comics. But this
one's a little differentbecause in the 80s, fantasy movies
(47:26):
were a big deal and so weresword and sorcery movies. Red Sonja
of Rogatino would later becomethe inspiration for Marvel Comics
Chainmail Bikini Warrior RedSonja and after Conan the Barbarian
and Conan the Destroyer, RedSonja would take place in the same
fictional universe with someof the same actors, but in different
roles. It was a financial andcritical flop. And yet a reboot has
(47:50):
been talked about for decades.And coincidentally, completely coincidentally,
I did not plan this. It'scoming out at about the same time
as the next episode of thispodcast, which is on the history
and legacy of Red Sonja. Soplease join me next week for an episode
on Red Sonja. If you enjoywhat I do for this podcast or you
(48:13):
simply want to support anindie podcaster who does all of this
on her own. If you have somespare change and you want to financially
contribute to the upkeep ofthis podcast, you're under no obligation
because this podcast is freeand it will always be free. However,
there are a couple of ways youcan help if you have the means to.
You can make a one offdonation verbaldiorama.com tips or
(48:36):
you can subscribe to thepatreon@verbaldiorama.com patreon
all money made goes back intothis podcast by paying for things
like software, subscriptions,website hosting or new equipment.
Huge thank you to the amazingpatrons of this podcast to Simon,
Laurel, Derek, Kat, Andy,Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott, Brendan,
(48:59):
Ian, Lisa, Sam, Jack, Dave,Stuart, Nicholas, so Kev, Heather,
Danny, Stu, Brett, Bennett, M,Xenos, Sean, Ryno, Philip K, Adam,
Elaine, Kyle and Aaron. If youwant to get in touch, feel free to
send me an email verbaldioramail.com you can also go to
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(49:22):
love to hear from yougenuinely. You can also message me
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feel free to get in touch ifyou wish. And finally.
(51:35):
Bye.
Hi, everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to Verbal Diorama, episode
308, Black Widow. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't. That has red
in her ledger and she'd liketo wipe it out. But can you wipe
out that much red? Welcome toVerbal Diorama. Whether you are a
(03:00):
brbrand-newandnewlistenertothispodcast,whetheryouarea regular
returning listener, thank youso much for being here. Thank you
so much for choosing to listento this podcast. I am, as always,
so happy to have you here forthe history and Legacy of Black Widow.
And if you are a regularreturning listener, thank you so
much for continuing to listento and support this podcast. Even
(03:22):
if you've only been here for alittle bit, whether you've been here
for the last six years andover 300 episodes, thank you so much
for your support. It genuinelymeans so much to have you come back
to this podcast and hopefullyenjoy this podcast enough for you
to come back to this podcast.And of course, having over 300 episodes
of a film history podcastmeans that if I need to take a break,
(03:45):
I can rely on some of thearchive to fill in the gap. And that's
why the archival Supermanepisodes have been on the feed for
the last couple of weeks.Because I was due to take a week
off and then I started to feela bit poorly so I decided to take
another week. But luckily I'vegot plenty of old episodes in the
arsenal to kind of bring outand introduce to people who maybe
(04:08):
haven't listened to thoseepisodes. Previous to the Superman
episode was Batman and Robin,which has honestly just done so remarkably
well. People love the JoelSchumacher Batmans and I'm so here
for it. I wish we could havehad more Joel Schumacher Batmans.
We didn't know. But what we dohave is a beautiful time capsule
of how our superhero moviescould have been had it all been different.
(04:31):
But I am back after a coupleof weeks off and I'm back with more
superheroes on purpose becauseI re watched Black Widow a couple
of months ago and I liked itso much more than I did the first
time I saw. Feels a littlelike the black sheep of the MCU in
so many ways. A movie madeafter it should have been, but also
(04:52):
a movie that has become moreimportant as time has progressed.
In 2010, Scarlett Johanssonbrought Natasha Romanoff to life
in Iron Man 2. Since then,she's appeared in seven different
Marvel movies, more than anyother Avenger except Robert Downey
Jr's Iron man and ChrisEvans's Captain America. Both of
those characters have hadthree solo films, with Cap technically
(05:16):
now having four. Since SamWilson is the new Captain America
in addition to screen time,Black Widow is more than just the
token woman in the Avengers.Natasha was the soul of the mMCUcu,acharacterwho
delved into her owncheckchequerederedpast,atruepioneerofredemption,carryingtheweight of
her own sin and her previousactions. Despite all of that, we
(05:38):
didn't get a Black Widow solomovie. Fans saw the value of Natasha
beyond her skin, tightcatsuits and crushing thighs. And
despite a few issues with herstorylines over the years, yes, I'm
predominantly looking at you.Age of Ultron, female representation
within the wider MCU wasgetting better. But we still didn't
get another female hero till2014 when Gamora showed up. And still
(06:03):
the Black Widow solo movienever came until 2021. After the
character had sacrificedherself to save humanity in 2019's
Endgame, Natasha finally wipedout the red in her ledger. But the
question remains, why didn'twe get a solo Black Widow movie during
the peak of the MCU? Why didshe? And we have to wait 11 years?
(06:28):
And once she got her solomovie, Scarlett Johansson sued Disney.
Don't worry, they're friendsagain. Now. Here's the trailer for
Black Widow.
(08:46):
Set between the events ofCaptain Civil War and Avengers Infinity
War, Natasha Romanov is afugitive for violating the Sokovia
Accords and flees to a safehouse in Norway, aided by Rick Mason,
who gives her mail from hersafe house in Budapest. When Natasha
is attacked by an unknownassailant who can replicate her every
move, she realizes that theattacker wants something in her mail.
(09:10):
She escapes with vials of redgas sent to her by her sister Yelena.
Going back to Budapest, shefinds Yelena, who was previously
under the control of Dreykov,a man Natasha thought long dead who
runs the Black Widow program.The same program she escaped from.
Dreykov is kidnapping andbrainwashing young girls and women
(09:31):
with the gas in those vials.And together, Natasha and Yelena,
along with their adoptiveparents, must destroy the Red Room
once and for all. Let's runthrough the cast. We have Scarlett
Johansson as Natasha Romanov,AKA Black Widow. Florence Pugh as
Yelena Belova David Harbour asAlexei Shostakov, AKA Red Guardian
(09:53):
Ot Fagbenli as Rick Mason,Olga Kurylenko as Antonia Dreykov,
AKA Taskmaster William Hurt asThaddeus Ross Ray Winston as Dreykov,
and Rachel Weisz as MelinaVostokoff. Black Widow has a screenplay
by Eric Pearson, story by JackSchaefer and Ned Benson, was directed
(10:16):
by Kate Shortland, and wasbased on the Marvel Comics. The character
of Black Widow was firstintroduced into the MCU in Iron Man
2 in 2010, posing as Starkemployee Natalie Rushman. Natasha
Romanov, or Natalia AlionovnaRomanova, to give her her canonical
full name, was an expert spytrained in the Red Room in Russia
(10:39):
as a child assassin, laterrecruited and defected to the United
States working for SHIELDalongside her closest friend Clint
Barton. Natasha not onlybecame the only female founding member
of the Avengers, her ongoingtreatment within the MCU was both
widely praised and and widelycriticized for several reasons. The
(11:00):
character of Black Widow firstappeared in Tales of suspense number
52 in 1964 as a villain forIron man, created by Stan Lee, Don
Rico, and Don Heck, but notreally looking like the Black Widow.
We now know this Black Widowwas a seductress, only spying on
Tony Stark for the Sovietgovernment. Despite that initial
(11:22):
appearance as an enemy, thecharacter was reformed as a hero
in The Avengers number 30 in1960 after appearing in previous
issues and switching sidesafter her newfound love for Hawkeye
fixed her Soviet brainwashing.The most significant aspect of her
origin involves the Red Room,a secret Soviet training facility.
(11:43):
According to her backstory,Natasha was taken as a child and
subjected to intensivetraining in espionage, combat, and
assassination. The program wasdesigned to create perfect female
operatives, with Natasha beingone of their most successful graduates.
In the comics, Natashareceived a version of the Super Soldier
Serum similar to what createdCaptain America, which slowed her
(12:07):
aging process and enhanced herphysical capabilities. This explains
how she could remain activefor decades, having allegedly been
active Since World War II insome versions of her history. Yelena
Belova debuted in Inhumansvol.2.5 in March 1999 and appeared
fully in the miniseries BlackWidow in 1999 as the second incarnation
(12:31):
of the Black Widow afterNatasha Romanoff. Canonically, Natasha
and Yelena were not sistersand actually didn't get on all that
well. Yelena Belova would alsotransform into a version of the Super
Adaptoid, a human machinehybrid that can copy the powers of
the New Avengers. Natasha, asa comic book hero with no obvious
(12:51):
powers except for being smart,strong and capable, meant she had
all the attributes needed fora live action version of her character.
But her appearance in the MCUwasn't the first time the character
of Natasha Romanoff was goingto appear on the big screen in the
early 2000s, X Men and Spiderman had proven there was a market
for big screen comic bookadaptations starring a variety of
(13:15):
characters, as well as theBourne Identity and Mission Impossible
series, showing that spymovies were popular. And in 2004,
Lionsgate Entertainment wasgranted a license by Marvel Enterprises
to produce and distributetheatrical films on two specific
Marvel characters. Lionsgatehad already acquired artisan entertainment
(13:36):
in 2003, and with that hadacquired the Punisher, which had
a midi version due out inApril 2004, starring Thomas Jane
and John Travolta. So they hadthe Punisher on their books already,
but now they also had DannyRand, AKA Iron Fist, and the Soviet
Union's premier spy, NatashaRomanoff, AKA Black Widow. The Punisher
(14:00):
was a financial and criticaldisappointment, and the planned sequel
instead became the rebootPunisher Warzone, with Ray Stevenson
replacing Thomas Jane. Butthey had high hopes for Black Widow,
which would require lessflashy special effects than most
comic book adaptations, andcould remain grounded whilst also
capitalizing on a sector ofthe market that was mostly untouched
(14:23):
at the time. Women. In April2004, David Hayter was announced
as the writer and director ofa Black Widow movie with Marvel Studios
Avi Arad producing. Hayter hadpreviously worked on the X Men films
and was known for his work onvideo game adaptations. And most
importantly, he was a huge fanof the character, even naming his
(14:45):
baby daughter born in 2004,Black Widow, a kid. She's actually
named Natasha, but she's namedNatasha after the character. Between
2003 and 2006, when hefinished his final draft, several
female led action movies cameout, including Underworld, Kill Bill,
and most importantly,Catwoman, Elektra and Aeon Flux.
(15:09):
Catwoman and Elektra were bothcomic book movies, and I'm going
to come back to both of themlater. But Aeon Flux was the main
culprit in 2005 for sinkingLionsgate's Black Widow movie. Fearing
a quote unquote action chickbomb, Lionsgate dropped Black Widow
in 2006, which was going to bea contemporary realistic espionage
(15:31):
adventure set in Kazakhstan.Later, Marvel and Hayter did attempt
to sell it to other studios,but Hayter felt no one was taking
the character seriously.Hayter wouldn't have to wait very
long to see the character inlive action, despite his lack of
involvement. And then Ironman, that's definitely coming to
a future episode. But Iron Man2 went into development straight
(15:54):
after the success of iron manin 2008, and lo and behold, Black
Widow was included as part ofthe cast. And in 2009 Marvel started
talks with Emily Blunt, JonFavreau's first choice to play the
character. However, she wasunable to take it due to commitments
to her role in Gulliver'sTravels. Meanwhile, Scarlett Johansson
had met with Jon Favreau andKevin Feige a year before. Pre production
(16:17):
even started on Iron Man 2about roles in the forthcoming MCU,
one of them being Black Widow,another being the Scarlet Witch.
So when Favreau calledJohansson in for a meeting, she dyed
her hair red to match BlackWidow in the comics, mostly to experiment
with the colour, but alsohopeful that Favreau would appreciate
the sentiment. It turns outthat he did, and Johansson felt the
(16:40):
Black Widow characterresonated with her as a superhero
but also as a human being. Sheadmitted to freaking out when she
saw the character's iconicblack catsuit and trained hard with
trainers on stunts andstrength training and retrospectively
in publicity for the eventualBlack Widow movie. She'd also comment
on the sexualized way BlackWidow was introduced into the MCU
(17:01):
and how they attempted toevolve her beyond that. In September
2010, Marvel Studios PresidentKevin Feige said that discussions
with Johansson had alreadytaken place regarding a Black Widow
standalone film, but Marvel'sfocus was on the crossover film The
Avengers in 2012. Throughoutthe 2000 and tens, Johansson appeared
in Iron Man 2, The Avengers,Captain the Winter Soldier, Age of
(17:26):
Ultron, Captain Civil War,Infinity War and Endgame. And it's
safe to say that no one atMarvel Studios anticipated how popular
Black Widow would become withaudiences after the release of Age
of Ultron. Johansson revealedthat the number of films on her contract
had been adjusted since shefirst signed to match the demand
(17:47):
of the character. By the time2014 rolled around, a treatment had
been written for a Black Widowmovie by Guardians of the Galaxy
writer Nicole Perlman. DavidHayter expressed a wish to revive
the project he was sopassionate about with Marvel, and
Kevin Feige was alluding tothe fact that the studio would love
to see the character exploredfurther. But back to Catwoman and
(18:10):
Elektra and a leaked 2014email purportedly from Marvel Entertainment
CEO Ike Perlmutter to MichaelLinton, Sony's CEO, following up
on a phone call between thepair. Its subject was female movies
and it's dated 7 August 2014at 5:32am and it reads quote Michael,
(18:33):
as we discussed on the phone.Below are just a few examples. There
are more. Thanks Ike. 1.Elektra Marvel Very bad idea and
the end result was very, verybad. 2. Catwoman WBDC Catwoman was
one of the most importantfemale characters within the Batman
franchise. This film was adisaster. 3. Supergirl DC Supergirl
(18:59):
was one of the most importantfemale superhero in Superman franchise.
This movie came out in 1984and did $14 million total domestic
with opening weekend of $5.5million. Again, another disaster.
Best Ike unquote. Kevin Feigeall but directly addressed Perlmutter's
(19:20):
emails in a 2014 interviewwith Comic Book Resources saying
quote, I very much believethat it's unfair to say people don't
want to see movies with femaleheroes, then missed five movies that
were not very good and theydon't mention Hunger Games, Frozen,
Divergent, you can go back toKill Bill or Aliens. These are all
female led movies. It cancertainly be done. Ike Perlmutter
(19:45):
believed female superheroesdidn't sell and he had considerable
power. As then CEO of MarvelEntertainment, Perlmutter served
as the head of Marvel throughits acquisition by Disney in 2009
and oversaw development onevery film from Iron man to Age of
Ultron. In 2015, Disneyreorganized leadership so studio
(20:06):
president Kevin Feige wouldreport directly to the Walt Disney
Studios chairperson and notPerlmutter. The restructuring was
reportedly due to Feige'sfrustration of working with Perlmutter
and his outdated opinionsabout casting budgets and merchandising,
as well as alleged commentsand actions by Perlmutter that were
sexist and racist in nature.It's no surprise that Perlmutter
(20:30):
was a supporter of the whatsitDictator in Chief. I think you know
who I'm talking about.Perlmutter's sidelining coincided
with a notable increase inMarvel Studios focus on diversity
and inclusiveness. This wouldlead to the studio making groundbreaking
films like Black Panther in2018, which would never have been
made under Perlmutter andCaptain Marvel, the studio's first
(20:53):
female led movie in 2019,which are two of the highest grossing
movies in the entire franchisepurely because finally we got a black
superhero and a femalesuperhero from the biggest studio
in the world. ThroughoutPerlmutter's leadership, Marvel kept
Natasha Romanoff out ofAvengers merchandise. Her merchandise
(21:14):
was a fraction of what existedfor her male counterparts. She had
none. For her debut In IronMan 2, she did get an action figure
for the Avengers, but of the88 official age of Ultron products,
she was only available on 6.She was infamously replaced from
one of her most badass scenesin Age of Ultron, riding her motorcycle
(21:34):
through South Korea on the toyversion of the bike with Captain
America. And this isn't just aBlack Widow thing, because Gamora
was missing from GuardiansToys too. A Trump supporter being
a misogynist? Surely not. In2019, Perlmutter lost further power
when Feige was promoted to CCOof Marvel Studios, putting him in
(21:56):
control of Marvel TV andMedia, which Perlmutter formally
oversaw. Perlmutter waseventually fired from the company
in 2023, but it's not reallyjust Ike Perlmutter to blame, because
the vision of the MCU alsodidn't seem to include anything other
than Natasha being asupporting part to other people's
stories, such as undoubtedlyher best role in Captain America,
(22:20):
the Winter Soldier. Natashawas used to bring other characters
into stories like meetingBruce Banner in the Avengers, which
is also standout, and meetingt' Challa in Captain Civil War. With
the Infinity Saga nearing itsend, it made more sense to go to
Wakanda than it did to exploreNatasha. And then we got Captain
(22:40):
Marvel as the first female ledmovie in the mcu again because it
served the greater purpose ofthe MCU to introduce Carol at that
time and I love that movie soI have no complaints. But fans were
naturally unhappy that a fanfavorite was being sidelined, and
despite both Feige andJohansson suggesting a movie for
Black Widow was comingthroughout the 2010s when they were
(23:02):
asked, it wasn't until October2017 that the ball really started
rolling when Marvel beganmeeting with potential writers, including
Jessica Gough, who would go onto create and write the Disney plus
series she Hulk Attorney atLaw. Her pitch for a Black Widow
movie heavily featured sheHulk as a supporting character. Feige
(23:23):
also met with Jack Schaeferand she was hired in December 2017.
One other thing that the MCUhadn't been the best with, apart
from highlighting femalestars, was hiring female directors
like ever. At that point, AnnaBowden had been hired to be a co
director for Captain Marvel,but for Black Widow, Marvel focused
(23:44):
on finding a sole femaledirector and met with over 65, including
Chloe Zhao, who would go on todirect Eternals, Amma Asante, Coralie
Fargate, Kimberly Pierce,Maggie Betts, Lynn Shelton and Lucretia
Martell. Scarlett Johanssonhad approached Kate Shortland personally
about potentially directingthe movie after seeing her film.
(24:05):
Law. Shortland was hired inJuly 2018. Johansson was also executively
producing Black Widow, thefirst time any Avenger had executively
produced their own solo filmin the mcu. Chris Hemsworth executively
produced Love and Thunder ayear later in 2022. Ned Benson was
(24:26):
hired in February 2019 torewrite the script and Eric Pearson
was hired during preproduction to rewrite it again. Pearson
received the sole screenplaycredit, with Benson and Schaefer
receiving story credits. Themovie was due to be set after civil
war and find Natasha alonewith the other Avengers scattered
or incarcerated and no longertied to The Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D.
(24:50):
the main source of inspirationwas the TV show the Americans, set
during the Cold War about anundercover Russian spy family living
in a Washington D.C. suburb.This setup would introduce Natasha
as a child living in theMidwestern United States with her
quote unquote family, hermother, father and her younger sister
Yelena posing as a traditionalall American family until they steal
(25:15):
SHIELD intel and have tosuddenly flee to Cuba with the young
girls separated and forced tothe Red Room for training as widows,
training that most littlegirls fail at and are subsequently
killed. It is a dark openingto the movie, which isn't that surprising
when you have Natasha'sinherent darkness and her shame at
her past. Marvel and Piersonhad heated conversations about how
(25:39):
dark Natasha's story could be,but Pearson successfully argued the
case to show Dreykov'sdaughter, first mentioned by Loki
in the Avengers as a primarysource of pain and regret for Natasha,
and while also fleshing outthe Budapest story that both Clint
Barton and Natasha hadfrequently mentioned. For Natasha's
sister, it made sense for thisto be Yelena Belova, a longtime associate
(26:03):
of Black Widow in the comics,with a complex antagonistic relationship
that softened as thecharacters developed a grudging respect
for each other and laterstories explored their shared trauma
as survivors of the Red Room.Yelena's character was used to explore
themes around what Natashamight have become if she hadn't defected.
(26:23):
She represented both Natasha'spast and an alternate path, someone
who initially embraced the RedRoom's ideology rather than rejecting
it. But fundamentally, bothNatasha and Yelena lost their innocence,
with Yelena suffering more forit for being younger when she was
taken from the only familyshe'd ever known. Now, if you think
(26:44):
creating a comic bookcharacter makes you super wealthy
once they star in a big Marvelmovie, you'd be wrong. To use the
character of Yelena, Marvelhad to pay her creators, writer Devin
Grayson and artist JG Jones,who had both signed special character
agreement deals $25,000 forYelena's use in a theatrical film
(27:05):
appearance. However, buriedwithin the document's small print
was language that grantedMarvel broad discretion to dramatically
lower payments, leading toMarvel only paying them $5,000. It
was only after Grayson went tothe press that Marvel agreed to pay
her the remaining $7,500 itowed her. And if you don't sign an
(27:27):
agreement, you don't get paidat all. It's why many artists and
writers go down the indieroute, because they actually get
better returns and morecreative control that way than they
do with big companies likeMarvel and dc. Marvel offered the
role of Yelena to SaoirseRonan, who passed, but then they
saw Fighting with My Family,which is episode 248 of this podcast,
(27:51):
and Florence Pugh wasreceiving rave reviews. And isn't
that just an apt title for thefamilial relationships in this movie
too? Pugh was cast in April2019 alongside David Harbour, Rachel
Weiss and O.T. fagbenley. Alsocast in the movie was the then 12
year old Eva Anderson,daughter of Milla Jovovich and director
(28:12):
Paul W.S. anderson as theyoung Natasha. Anderson is a fluent
Russian speaker, which wouldcome in handy with the scenes filmed
in Russian. Taskmaster wasincluded in early versions of the
script as a villain, the TonyMasters version from the comic, but
this was changed to be AntoniaDrakov to fit the narrative that
Dreykov subdues and controlsall women, including his daughter,
(28:37):
long thought dead by Natasha.Bond girl Olga Kurylenko was cast
as Antonia Dreykov with herfather Dreykov, played by Ray Winston.
Winston would call theexperience soul destroying and after
some negative feedback on hisperformance, he actually wanted to
leave the production and havehis role recast. However, contractual
(28:58):
obligations meant that he hadto stick around for reshoots. Principal
photography started on 28 May2019 in Norway, moved to Pinewood
Studios here in the UK in June2019, then on location in Surrey
in July, before moving toGeorgia in the US in September and
then to Morocco in October.Filming lasted for 87 days and wrapped
(29:22):
on 6 October 2019, with aplanned release in 2020. Yes, 2020
strikes again. Anyway, beforewe talk about 2020, let's segue into
something a lot nicer to talkabout, which is the obligatory Keanu
reference of this episode. Andif you don't know what that is, it's
(29:44):
where I link the movie thatI'm featuring with Keanu Reeves.
And for a long time Keanu wasfan casted for the role of taskmaster
in the MCU, and in 2019 KevinFeige mentioned in an interview that
he'd met with Reeves with aview to discuss a role in a Marvel
project. So there was somespeculation among fans that the stars
had aligned and Keanu wasindeed Taskmaster. But he wasn't,
(30:08):
and he's one of very fewactors who still haven't been involved
with the studio in any way,shape or form, but who knows, maybe
soon. Let's move on to themusic though, because Alexandre Desplat
was originally announced to becomposing the score, but he was replaced
in post production by LorneBalfe. He wrote an original piece
(30:29):
in the style of Russian folkmusic that he used to develop the
rest of Natasha's motifs. AsCOVID lockdowns were affecting post
production, studio recordingsessions also began to shut down,
but Balfe managed to get therecordings completed on time. Black
Widow is also only one of fewMarvel movies that has a pre credits
(30:50):
introduction to set up thechildhoods of Natasha and Yelena,
and it includes a title designby Emmy nominated design lab Perception.
The team compiled oldphotographs, created documents and
directed live action footageto chronicle Natasha's past in the
Widow program. While they shotthe footage at 8K high resolution,
(31:11):
they used a series of customdigital and analog methods to match
the aesthetics of 8 millimeterfilm, 90s digital video and VHS set
to a cover of Nirvana SmellsLike Teen Spirit by thinkapanga featuring
Marlia J, which was suggestedby Perception. It is raw, gritty
and intentionally somber. Thisis not your average MCU movie. This
(31:37):
one is set on earth with realpeople doing nasty real people stuff.
And I really love that coverof Smells Like Teen Spirit as well.
I think it suits the movieabsolutely perfectly so Black Widow
was originally scheduled forrelease in May 2020, which for obvious
Covid based reasons did not goahead. Disney retained the May 2020
(31:59):
release date despite other bigmovies like no Time to Die, shifting
theirs early on in thepandemic. Disney kept that May 2020
release date up until earlyMarch 2020, but then cinemas across
the US started closing theirdoors and Disney removed Black Widow
from its May 2020 releaseslot. They then rescheduled it for
(32:21):
November 2020 and shiftedother Phase 4 movies back to accommodate
the change in schedule. InSeptember 2020, with COVID still
raging across the world,Disney pushed the release back again
to May 2021, also pushingShang Chi back. For reasons I'll
come to, Black Widow had tohave a theatrical release, but Covid
(32:43):
was making the situationincreasingly difficult. In late March
2021, Disney announced BlackWidow was moving dates again to 9
July 2021 and announced thatit would be released simultaneously
in theaters and on Disney withpremier access. To accommodate, quote
the evolving preferences ofaudiences, several studios had started
(33:08):
experimenting withsimultaneous theatrical and streaming
releases, and during that yearDisney released some of its planned
but postponed 2020 releaseslike Mulan and Raya and the Last
Dragon via Disney PremiereAccess, with subscribers paying an
additional $30 a film tostream the movie at home. But in
(33:30):
July 2021, Scarlett Johanssonfiled a lawsuit against Disney over
breach of contract, allegingthat the studio broke its agreement
with her when they decided torelease Black Widow simultaneously
in theaters and on Disneyplus. Court documents filed by Johansson
detailed that the dealguaranteed an exclusive theatrical
(33:51):
release and that her salaryfor the film was largely tied to
box office performance. Disneyissued a statement in response to
the suit saying it had nomerit whatsoever and that Johansson
had shown a, quote, callousdisregard for the horrific and prolonged
global effect of the COVID 19pandemic, unquote, that the company
(34:12):
claimed they had fullycomplied with Johansson's contract
and that the Disney plusPremiere Access release of the film
had significantly enhanced herability to earn additional compensation
beyond the $20 million she hadalready received. In response, her
agent, Brian Lord, fired back,condemning Disney's response as,
(34:32):
quote, shamelessly and falselyaccusing Ms. Johansson of being insensitive
to the global COVID pandemic,unquote, and accusing the company
of leaving artistic andfinancial partners out of their streaming
profits, and denounced thedisclosure of Johansson's $20 million
earnings as, quote, an attemptto weaponize her success as an artist
(34:53):
and businesswoman, as if thatwas something she should be ashamed
of, unquote. Disney werefirmly between a rock and a hard
place, though, as theiraggressive post endgame scheduling
meant the TV series Hawkeyewas due to premiere, which also featured
Florence Pugh's Yelena andfollowed on from the story of Black
Widow. And they had alreadydelayed Black Widow a year after
(35:17):
Disney filed a motion to movethe lawsuit to arbitration in August
2021. Johansson and Disneyreached a settlement over the lawsuit
a month later, and terms ofthe settlement were not disclosed.
The settlement came afterDisney chose to give theatrical only
releases to subsequent 2021films, following the box office success
(35:38):
of Shang Chi and Free Guy,which both received exclusive theatrical
windows when initiallyreleased. Black Widow was released
on 7th July 2021 in cinemasworldwide and on 9th July 2021 in
the US and also simultaneouslyon Disney Plus. It went to number
one in its first week incinemas. Movies were being released
(36:01):
but not often, and Black Widowwas the only major studio release
that week because no otherstudio would want their movie taking
on an MCU movie. Black Widowwas out at the Same Time as F9, the
Fast Saga, the Boss Baby 2,the Forever Purge, A Quiet Place
Part 2 and Cruella thefollowing week Black Widow was dethroned
(36:22):
from its number one spot bySpace Jam. A new legacy. And it's
unfortunate really, becausenow Black Widow is often mentioned
when you hear talk of Marvel'slowest grossing movies. And that's
not untrue. It is one of thelowest. But other Marvel movies didn't
come out during a pandemic.Black Widow was the first movie of
(36:43):
Phase 4 and the first to comeout during COVID It was followed
by Shang Chi and Eternals,which only earned 50 and 20 million
dollars more respectively. Andthey didn't have a simultaneous release
on Disney. In fact, both hadan exclusive 45 day release in cinemas.
Black Widow actually had themost ticket Pre sales of 2021. It
(37:07):
grossed $183.7 milliondomestically in the US and $196.1
million internationally, for atotal worldwide gross of $379.8 million.
But that doesn't take intoaccount the Disney Plus Premier Access.
It was the first film thatDisney revealed. Premier Access revenue
(37:27):
for the film's opening weekendearned $226.2 million globally, which
include $80.4 million at thedomestic box office, $78.8 million
at the international boxoffice, and $67 million in Disney
Plus Premier Access globalrevenue. When you take the Disney
(37:47):
Plus Premier Access intoaccount, Black Widow actually has
the third largest opening foran MCU origin movie behind Black
Panther and Captain Marvel. Italso became the third most pirated
film of the pandemic, withover 20 million pirated views. And
it's estimated that this levelof piracy cost Disney Approximately
(38:10):
$600 million of lost revenuefrom this movie. So in a slightly
different time period, in aslightly different version of this
universe, with no Covid or aslightly different version of this
movie that maybe came outseveral years earlier, this movie
could have been absolutelyhuge for Marvel and could have made
a hell of a lot of money. Butcircumstances Black Widow has a score
(38:34):
on rotten tomatoes of 79% withthe critical consensus reading. Black
Widow's deeper themes aredrowned out in all the action, but
it remains a solidlyentertaining standalone adventure
that's rounded out by astellar supporting cast. Critics
praised Johansson and Pugh aswell as its gritty tone and the fact
it diversifies the MCU with ahigh octane espionage thriller. Black
(38:59):
Widow was also one of 28 filmsthat received the reframe stamp for
2021, which is awarded by theGender Equality Coalition Reframe
for films that are proven tohave gender balanced hiring on how
Many women are involved in aproduction in front of and behind
the camera. Other movies underthe Disney umbrella awarded that
(39:19):
year included Cruella, Encantoand Eternals. While Natasha's story
is over and her sacrifice inEndgame still poignant, the MCU moves
on because Yelena is stillaround. And Yelena is still dealing
with her own trauma afterlosing her family, becoming a mind
controlled assassin, findingher sister, getting blipped, coming
(39:41):
back to find her sister isdead, becoming a contract killer
and almost killing ClintBarton. From a three episode appearance
in Hawkeye through to thisyear's Thunderbolts. Which is great
by the way. Really enjoyedthat. Yelena is due to return in
Avengers Doomsday next year in2026, so welcome to the MCQ. Taskmaster
(40:01):
would also return inThunderbolts. One of the things that
stands out the most for me,and seeing how far the MCU particularly
has come over its almost 18years of existence, is Black Widow.
I'm talking about thecharacter, not so much the movie,
but the movie plays a part.Natasha Romanoff was for so long
(40:22):
the only major femalecharacter and with that was projected
everything your sole femalecharacter needed to be. She needed
to be pretty, she needed to befunny, she needed to have trauma
but be totally okay with it.She needed to service the men in
the story, she needed to kickass, she needed to look good doing
it. And she needed to have noflaws, nothing visible anyway. She's
(40:47):
Scarlett Johansson, one of themost beautiful women in the world
and now the highest grossinglead actor of all time. But Black
Widow needed to do this whilealso being hypersexualized. Johansson
has acknowledged this herself.It was almost a prerequisite. In
press for this movie shementioned how the character was underestimated
(41:08):
and undervalued by this lensof the male gaze. In Iron Man 2,
Tony Stark says he wants one,and having developed and built this
character over her manyappearances, Johansson didn't want
that. For Natasha, the era ofthe femme fatale is over. Compare
the introduction of Natasha inIron Man 2 to the introduction of
(41:29):
Yelena. Yelena is just asphysically attractive and fit as
Natasha, just as agile andadept with a firearm. But Yelena
is allowed to exist, isallowed to be feminine and vulnerable
as well as smart and tough.The whole jabs at Natasha's posing
was on set banter betweenFlorence Pugh and Scarlett Johansson
(41:49):
that ended up being writteninto the script because Natasha's
early poses were silly. Nowthis hypersexualization didn't start
with the mcu. It started withher depiction in the comics, but
it shows how the MCU hasmatured and how executives have actually
started listening to theactors and the fans. It undoubtedly
comes as well from Johanssonbeing an executive producer and having
(42:13):
that say in how she wants thecharacter to be depicted. But I love
that she recognized that andthat they've chosen to not go that
way with Yelena. Yelena can beeverything Natasha was, but she doesn't
have to be perfect and shedoesn't have to service the needs
of men. Yelena has flaws, andthis movie allows Natasha to have
(42:33):
the same and for her to befinally free of some of her demons
before her inevitable end inEndgame. But most importantly, we
get a pass for a characterthat has no future. Yes, this movie
should have come way sooner,but did it cheapen Natasha's death?
In many ways, it deepened it.Natasha did what she did for Clint,
but she also inadvertentlybrought back Yelena. It didn't need
(42:56):
to do anything other than tellyou more about Natasha to spend more
time with her, which isaccomplished here. This movie is
not here to further the widermcu, nor was it here to somehow bring
Natasha back to life. Itexisted to bring us more of a character
that we know was dead and tointroduce another and to give us
Rachel voice. Obligatory mummyreference. It feels sad. This is
(43:19):
the first time I've mentionedRachel voice, but this movie, there's
a lot of other stuff to talkabout. Ray Winston may have not enjoyed
this movie, but Dreykov is animportant tool in Natasha's forgiveness
of herself and of her actions.He is such a monster and hates women
so much that even his owndaughter is a commodity for him to
(43:40):
control. His end is adding nomore red to anyone's ledger. His
end is freeing all the widows,including Antonia Dreykov, from the
evil clutches of a man whosees women as nothing more than controllable
killing machine. These womenare now free to live their lives
as they see fit. They're giventheir humanity back, their rights
(44:00):
back, and their autonomy back.And the reason I felt this movie
resonated much more now thanit did in 2021 is for many reasons,
but also because of Roe vs.Wade and the overturning of Roe v.
Wade. Something that does notaffect me here in the uk, but it
does affect millions of womenin the us. Millions of women who
(44:21):
are being forced against theirwill to use their bodies in ways
that they would not consent tohad they had the means to acquire
reproductive rights services,not just abortions, but general reproductive
health care, includingcontraception. Cervical screenings
and STI testing. The widows inthis movie are vessels too brainwashed
to do the bidding of Dreykovuntil their bodies can't do it anymore.
(44:45):
They are forced by a man touse their bodies in ways they would
not otherwise do. And in apost Roe v. Wade world, this screams
so much of protecting women'sbodily autonomy and giving a woman
the right to choose becausethese women would not otherwise choose
this life. They were younggirls kidnapped from families, forced
(45:05):
to become sterilised andforced to become killers. Natasha
and Jelena's ultimate quest tofree these women is a powerful statement
that it's every woman'sresponsibility to be there for other
women. And that resonated somuch with me as a woman and as a
supporter of women that forNatasha's final appearance in the
mcu, she's no longer servingthe men, but serving the women. And
(45:30):
then in Endgame, she's servingeveryone. Natasha has no future,
but she now has a past andit's remarkably soulful, bittersweet,
funny and tragic. And wefinally know what happened in Budapest.
But most importantly, Natashadied knowing she was loved by her
family and her family. And shehad a great vest with so many pockets.
(45:57):
Thank you for listening. Asalways, I would love to hear your
thoughts on Black Widow andthank you for your continued support
of this podcast. If you wantto get involved and help this podcast
grow and reach more people,you could tell your friends and family
about this podcast or aboutthis episode. You can leave a ideally
five star rating or reviewwherever you found this podcast.
And you can also find me andfollow me on social media. I am at
(46:20):
verbaldiorama cross socialmedia where you can like post, comment
on posts, share post, reply toposts, DM me, all of the above. I
am more than happy to hearfrom you and to hear your thoughts
as well. And if you like thisepisode on Black Widow, you might
also like the followingprevious episodes that I've done
around this character andthere are quite a few episode 72
(46:43):
Captain America the WinterSoldier which still remains the best
version of Natasha that's everbeen put to screen, even including
this movie. Because I loveNatasha in the Winter Soldier Episode
73 Captain Civil War Episode97 the Avengers Episode 98 Age of
Ultron Episode 99 AvengersInfinity War and wouldn't you guess
(47:06):
Episode 100 Avengers Endgame.As always, give me feedback, let
me know what you think ofthose episodes. And for the next
episode we are going fromblack to red and another spin off
solo female led movie basedsomewhat on Marvel comics. But this
one's a little differentbecause in the 80s, fantasy movies
(47:26):
were a big deal and so weresword and sorcery movies. Red Sonja
of Rogatino would later becomethe inspiration for Marvel Comics
Chainmail Bikini Warrior RedSonja and after Conan the Barbarian
and Conan the Destroyer, RedSonja would take place in the same
fictional universe with someof the same actors, but in different
roles. It was a financial andcritical flop. And yet a reboot has
(47:50):
been talked about for decades.And coincidentally, completely coincidentally,
I did not plan this. It'scoming out at about the same time
as the next episode of thispodcast, which is on the history
and legacy of Red Sonja. Soplease join me next week for an episode
on Red Sonja. If you enjoywhat I do for this podcast or you
(48:13):
simply want to support anindie podcaster who does all of this
on her own. If you have somespare change and you want to financially
contribute to the upkeep ofthis podcast, you're under no obligation
because this podcast is freeand it will always be free. However,
there are a couple of ways youcan help if you have the means to.
You can make a one offdonation verbaldiorama.com tips or
(48:36):
you can subscribe to thepatreon@verbaldiorama.com patreon
all money made goes back intothis podcast by paying for things
like software, subscriptions,website hosting or new equipment.
Huge thank you to the amazingpatrons of this podcast to Simon,
Laurel, Derek, Kat, Andy,Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott, Brendan,
(48:59):
Ian, Lisa, Sam, Jack, Dave,Stuart, Nicholas, so Kev, Heather,
Danny, Stu, Brett, Bennett, M,Xenos, Sean, Ryno, Philip K, Adam,
Elaine, Kyle and Aaron. If youwant to get in touch, feel free to
send me an email verbaldioramail.com you can also go to
verbaldiorama.com and fill outthe little contact form. I would
(49:22):
love to hear from yougenuinely. You can also message me
on social media or you can DMme on social media as well. Please
feel free to get in touch ifyou wish. And finally.
(51:35):
Bye.
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