October 16, 2025 • 48 mins
Hocus Pocus represents something special in cinema: proof that a film's legacy isn't written on opening weekend. It's a testament to how the right movie can find its audience, even if it takes decades to get there, to become one of the most beloved family Halloween classics of all time.
Virgins! Get ready to light the black flame candle, and summon the iconic Sanderson Sisters, played by Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker, and Kathy Najimy, who brought the sistahhhs to life with their unforgettable chemistry. It would lead to Hocus Pocus' eventual resurgence, with the Sanderson sisters as queer icons, and huge influences on the drag community.
What started as a simple bedtime story evolved after years stuck in development hell. It would be The Divine Miss M herself who essentially got the movie greenlit, and Midler fully committed to the bit.
But after a disappointing July 1993 release, VHS and DVD releases started to make it profitable and Hocus Pocus become a Halloween staple, as well as a cult classic.
You could say it ran amok, Amok amok amok!
I would love to hear your thoughts on Hocus Pocus !
Verbal Diorama is now an award-winning podcast! Best Movie Podcast in the inaugural Ear Worthy Independent Podcast Awards and was nominated for the Earworm Award at the 2025 Golden Lobes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:47):
Hi, everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to verbal diorama, episode
317, Hocus Pocus. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies. Youknow, and maybe you don't. That puts
a spell on you. And now you'remine? You can't stop the things I
do? I ain't lying. Been 317episodes right down to the day. Now
(02:12):
the witch is back and there'shell to pay? I put a spell on youa,andndnowyou're
mine. Welcome to VerbalDiorama. Whether you're a regular
returning listener, whetheryou're an irregular returning listener,
whether you're abrandnebrand-newwlistenertothispodcast.Thankyouforbeing here.
(02:32):
Thank you for choosing tolisten to this podcast. I'm so happy
to have you here for thehistory and legacy of Hocus Pocus.
Huge thank you to the regularreturning listeners. Without you,
I would not still be doingwhat I'm doing for the last almost
seven years now. It's crazy.Huge thank you for your support.
It genuinely means so much.And the traditional spooky season
(02:56):
on Verbal Diorama Softlaunched with the devil's advocate
a few episodes ago, but sincethen launched properly for Candyman
and last week, Wes Craven'snew nightmare. And now something
more family friendly. Itdidn't quite start off as family
friendly as it became, but itstill features a hanging stealing
children's souls and siblingsGary and Penny Marshall as husband
(03:20):
and wife. This is a movie thatflopped in 1993, but like Billy Butcherson,
kept coming back to life.Perhaps it is all just a bunch of
Hocus pocus. Or perfect. Thespell just took a while to affect
us all. Here's the trailer forHocus Pocus.
(05:31):
In 1693, the Sanderson sistersare accused of witchcraft by the
Salem townspeople. But beforethey're hanged, eldest sister Winifred
casts a spell saying that theywill be resurrected when a virgin
lights the black flame candle.Fast forward 300 years to 1993. Newcomer
to Salem from Los Angeles,Max. He's bullied at school and has
(05:53):
a crush on his schoolmateAlison. On Halloween night, his parents
force him to go trick ortreating with his younger sister
Danny. While their parents goto a party, Max, Dany and Alison
decide to go to the house ofthe Sanderson sisters, which is now
a derelict museum. Max tauntsthe legendary curse and despite being
a virgin, decides to light theblack flame candle, bringing back
(06:18):
Winifred, Sarah and MarySanderson. Let's run through the
cast of this movie. We haveBette Midler as Winifred Sanderson,
Sarah Jessica Parker as SarahSanderson, Kathy Najimy as Mary Sanderson
Omri Katz as Max DennisonThora Birch as Dani Dennison, Vinessa
(06:38):
Shaw as Allison Watts, CharlesRockett as David Denison, Stephanie
Faracy as Jennifer Dennison,Sean Murray as Thackerey Binx, Jason
Marsden as the voice ofThackerey Binks and Doug Jones as
Billy Butcherson. Hocus Pocushas a screenplay by Mick Garris and
Neil Cuthbert, story by DavidKirschner and Mick Garris, and was
(07:02):
directed by Kenny Ortega. AndHocus Pocus is a beloved Halloween
classic. A movie that iswatched repeatedly every October
by families all over theworld. The Sanderson Sisters merchandise
is across the Internet, fromHalloween costumes to books to Funko
pops to T shirts to even aLego set of the Sanderson house.
(07:25):
But Hocus Pocus wasn't alwayslike this. It came out in the crowded
summer of 1993. Yes, summer.The summer of Jurassic park, the
summer of the Firm, the summerof Robin Hood, Men in Tights, which
is still the biggest everepisode of this podcast. Don't ask
me why, it just is. But howdid Hocus Pocus go from a box office
(07:47):
disappointment to not only aHalloween classic, universally beloved
by families, but also a pieceof queer cinema becoming inspiration
for drag queens across theworld? Hocus Pocus started life as
a bedtime story that DavidKirshner, writer and producer, would
make up for his daughters. Hewould tell them that the neighbor's
(08:09):
black cap contained the soulof a young boy who had been cursed
by witches to live in felineform and whose children loved the
slightly spooky stories. So hecreated this trio of witches. Kirschner
is no stranger to this podcastand not a horror, because he was
also the guy who created thefirst images of Chucky from Child's
(08:32):
Play. That's episode 274 ofthis podcast from last October. The
idea of three witches, theSanderson sisters, hanged in the
1600s and then resurrected bySalem children, had all the makings
of a Halloween story.Kirschner had previously written
a story about a little Jewishmouse. That little Jewish mouse story
(08:54):
had led to working with StevenSpielberg on the movie of that story,
which was An American Tale, amovie that may or may not be coming
to this podcast very soon.Kirschner's Halloween short story,
which was called HalloweenHouse, was published in Muppet Magazine,
and he developed that into thefirst draft of a screenplay. A meeting
(09:16):
was scheduled betweenKirschner and Jeffrey Katzenberg,
who worked at Disney at thetime. He was the guy who'd famously
declined Kirschner's idea forAn American Tale, which had ended
up at Amblin with the famousquote, who wants to watch a movie
about a Jewish mouse? I mean,it turned out that quite a lot of
people actually wanted towatch a movie about a Jewish mouse,
(09:39):
because An American Tale endedup huge. Kirschner went all out to
impress Katzenberg forHalloween House with a conference
room filled with a cauldron ofdry ice, candy corn, pumpkins and
a broom, a mop and a vacuumcleaner suspended from the ceiling.
Katzenberg was not impressedwith the theatrics, but he was impressed
(10:00):
when Kirschner mentioned thatHalloween was a billion dollar business.
Maybe that was somethingDisney might be interested in. And
of course, Katzenberg wanted aslice of that pumpkin pie. Now, memories
differ on this particularscenario, because while Kirschner
insists the pitch was toKatzenberg and Disney. Mick Garris
(10:21):
says the pitch was to StevenSpielberg. Both David Kirschner and
Mick Garris were in the room,but Kirchner would insist his version
of events was correct becauseKathleen Kennedy, Spielberg's producing
partner, was called outKirschner for hurting Spielberg's
feelings by pitching toKatzenberg instead of the guy who
gave him his big break with anAmerican tail. And Spielberg took
(10:44):
it as a personal slight.Kirschner would obviously sell his
idea to Disney, and he didwant Spielberg involved in the movie
because the guy had a way withmagical kids fantasy movies in the
80s. But Disney and Amblinweren't really best buds and they
were each other's competitionfor that lucrative family market
(11:04):
and neither wanted to be inbusiness with the other. And so it
turned out that An AmericanTale would be more keen to the success
of Hocus Pocus than anyonewould ever realize. Now, Amblin and
Disney did have somewhat of arelationship in the late 80s. They
had joint custody of whoFramed Roger Rabbit with each company
owning half. But therelationship quickly soured after
(11:28):
that movie was released in1988, and the deal for Amblin to
develop a series of shores tobe produced at Walt Disney Feature
Animation soon fell by thewayside when the shared custody of
the shorts and their successmeant Disney wanting a bigger slice
of the pie and Spielbergscrapping the remaining shorts. Kirchner's
(11:48):
original idea was mixed withMick Garris more grown up, more frightening,
more tween based horrorscript, which included the creation
of Billy Butcherson. AndGarris's darker tone gradually become
more comedic thanks to cowriter Neil Cuthbert and about a
dozen uncredited writers whotook a stab at the script for Hocus
(12:08):
Pocus over an eight yearperiod. While the movie sat in development
hell, it went from a tweenhorror to having teenage protagonists
to having two teenagers andone child. The title Hocus Pocus
came thanks to co writer NeilCuthbert. He crafted the line from
Max it's just a bunch of hocuspocus as an explanation for him being
(12:31):
the virgin who lights theblack flame candle. A candle no one
thought to get rid of in 300years, saying that I still have some
Yankee candles that are about10 years old that still have life
in them. So who knows? Anddevelopment hell is where the newly
minted Hocus Pocus sat forabout eight years until Bette Midler
(12:52):
came along. Winifred Sandersonhad been written with Cloris Leachman
in mind. Leachman, who died in2021 was a Best Supporting Actress
Academy Award winner and aBAFTA Supporting Actress winner for
the Last Picture show as wellas a Golden Globe winner for best
actress in 1974 for Phyllis an an eight time Primetime Emmy
(13:13):
award winner. But if you'regoing to replace Cloris Leachman,
you replace her with threetime Emmy winning, three time Grammy
winning, two time Tonywinning, four time Golden Globe winning
Bachelor nominated and doubleAcademy Award nominee, The Divine
Ms. M. Bette Midler. She'sonly an Oscar away from an EGOT.
(13:34):
Bette Midler was a big namefor Jeffrey Katzenberg under the
Disney owned TouchstonePictures banner. She was a powerhouse
for the studio in the late 80swith starring roles in 1986's down
and Out in Beverly Hills andRuthless People and 1987's Outrageous
Fortune and did big businessin 1988 in Big Business. And she
(13:56):
also lent her voice to theDisney animated classic, and it is
a classic, Oliver and Companyas the voice of Georgette. In fact,
Disney wanted Midler so muchthat Katzenberg signed her to a three
picture deal in 1987,something exceedingly rare in Hollywood
for a studio and a star tocommit to in the late 80s. It would
(14:18):
lead to probably her most wellknown movie, Beaches. But the early
90s would be a small bump inthe road for Middler's run of more
or less constant success withStella, Scenes From a Mall and For
the Boys, all strugglingeither critically or commercially.
But the other thing that hadchanged for Bette Midler was in 1986
(14:39):
she had given birth to adaughter and that little girl was
now interested in watchingsome of her mother's films. The problem
was none of her films weresuitable for a young child. And so
the idea of taking onsomething like Hocus Pocus was a
way to diversify her roles andgive her daughter something she could
watch. And as soon as BetteMidler signed on the dotted line
(15:01):
to play Winifred, everythingjust fell into place. Midler essentially
greenlit the movie and Midlerfully committed to the bit for Winifred.
Director Kenny Ortega wasmostly known as a choreographer,
famously working as one onPretty in Pink, Ferris Bueller's
Day off, where he was also asecond unit director and most famously,
(15:22):
Dirty Dancing. He made hisdirectorial debut in 1992 for Disney
with Newsies, which flopped atthe box office but became a cult
classic. His sophomoredirectorial effort was Hocus Pocus
and he'd worked with BetteMidler before. And her being involved
was enough for Ortega to dropeverything and say yes, and with
(15:43):
Ortega being a choreographerand him knowing Bette Midler could
hold the tune, he's the oneresponsible for the I put a spell
on you scene. It was somethingDavid Kirschner questioned in the
middle of a dramatic chase tostop the action for a musical number.
But Ortega insisted and it'sbecome one of the most well known
scenes in the movie with BetteMidler going full divine, Miss Anne
(16:07):
and Kathy Najimi and SarahJessica Parker as her backup singers.
Based on Midler's real lifebackup singers, the Harletts, the
song was specifically arrangedfor Midler. Marc Shaiman, who wrote
the Broadway hit Hairspray andworked with Midler on Beaches, arranged
the song specifically for her.He wanted it to sound like a Midler
(16:28):
concert opening number.Getting the rights to the original
1956 song by Screamin' JayHawkins wasn't easy, so the writers
had to try and figure out howto get those lyrics and the song
different enough so they couldstill use it. Midler contributed
the line of of all the witchesworking owing the worst to the song.
(16:48):
She would regularly performher hocus pocus rendition of I put
a spell on you on tour wearingWinifred's dress, wig and signature
makeup. Going back to Midler,fully committed to the bit for Winifred
because she really genuinelydid. Speaking of backup singers and
her fellow sisters, KathyNajimy fresh off of Sister act, the
(17:12):
same sister at the Midlerturned down the fears of her public
image being tarnished byplaying a nun. That story's in episode
295 of this podcast. She playsthe shy sister Mary. Rosie o' Donnell
had been originallyapproached, but she turned it down,
not wanting to play a witch.Najimy didn't want to play a stereotypical
(17:32):
witch because she fullybelieves in white witches and she
discussed Mary's character atlength with Kenny Ortega, concerned
about witches who wanted tokill children. But ultimately the
bet middle of it all was thereason she signed on. Najimy cam
up with Mary's crazy hairstyleand crooked mouth which she uses
to help smell children. SarahJessica Parker was unaware of her
(17:57):
links to Salem when she tookon the role of younger sister Sarah.
Esther Elwell, Parker's 10thgreat grandmother, was arrested in
Salem for committing sundryact of witchcraft in 1692. Elwell
was accused of bewitching MaryFitch, the young sister of a deacon,
claiming that Esther Elwellused her spirit to torment Mary,
(18:19):
who later died due to thisalleged bewitching. Elwell's case
never went to trial becausethe Court had banned the use of spectral
evidence the previous month,which gave the prosecutors little
evidence to go on. EstherElwell was released from prison by
the Governor, Sir WilliamPhipps, free to live out the remainder
of her life. Thirteengenerations later, Sarah Jessica
(18:43):
Parker was born. Parker didn'tknow about Esther Elwell until appearing
on Who Do Yo Think You Are?In 2010, but it's a remarkable connection
and Parker would actuallyrelish being in the air suspended
on wires unlike most of thecast, but this was the early 90s
and being suspended on wireswas very much a thing. Most of the
(19:03):
cast did their own flyingstunts, including the then 10 year
old Thora Burch as DaniDennison, and Midler would make sure
the young actor was keptentertained during long shoots. Birch,
who would go on to become acult favourite actor in her own right,
learned what a virgin was onset because she was 10. Of course
she didn't know. She wouldlove the entire experience, but especially
(19:26):
the Halloween party scene.Omri Katz, who I had a huge crush
on from his Eerie Indianadays, I absolutely loved that show
and it was bizarrely onBritish tv. I think it was on BBC
too. Katz would also bring thevoice of Thackeray Binks with him
from Erie, Indiana, JasonMarsden. Because the pair were friends,
(19:48):
he would overdub Sean Murray'sperformance as the human version
of Binks, which wasn't aparticularly easy task, as well as
voice the cat version ofBinks, which also wasn't particularly
easy for him to match hismouth to the cat's mouth. But Omri
Katz wasn't the first choicefor the role of Max. It was originally
offered to a young actor whowowed the producers, Leonardo DiCaprio.
(20:13):
DiCaprio declined the role toinstead film What's Eating Gilbert
Grape, a performance thatwould get him his first Oscar nomination
at just 20 years old, which ispotentially something that hocus
Pocus could never have givenhim. Hiring a bunch of actors who
could do comedy and actors whocould give each character a bit of
nuance meant the script wasupdated to include more physical
(20:36):
comedy. Bette Midler wasdedicated to using period accurate
curse words. She also had asay in what she wore. Not wanting
to go for the traditional allblack witches gal with a black hat,
and the costumes here are downto Hollywood costume designer Mary
Vogt. Vogt worked with KennyOrtega, who, unlike other directors,
(20:57):
wanted the weird and theoutrageous. Taking inspiration from
storybook illustrator ArthurRackham, Spanish artist Goya and
his series Los Capricos andFairy Tales, Vogt worked with each
of the main three actors tobuild their costumes. Bette Midler
had already started to havered hair, and so Vogt suggested she
wear green with a purpleaccent, along with symbols on her
(21:20):
robe from the rune alphabetand Stonehenge. Sarah Jessica Parker,
with her trademark long blondehair, looked like a Disney princess.
And so Vogt designed her dressin line with Sleeping Beauty. And
Kathy Najimy, with her darkhair and generally tasked with mixing
the potions, was designed as awitch banker. But unlike the specially
(21:42):
designed costumes for thewitches, most of the Halloween party
scene costumes were from theWalt Disney costume department, because
by that point, the movie hadrun out of money and just needed
any costume available, whichis why the Supremes appear at the
party. It was also usefulbecause it was a Disney movie. There
was no need to worry aboutrights to costumes or characters.
(22:05):
For some time after HocusPocus initial release, you could
rent out the actual costumesworn by Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica
Parker, and Kathy Najimy. Butthen the movie grew in popularity
and this practice quicklystopped. Billy Butcherson was based
on Vogt's childhood storybookdrawings of Ichabod Crane, and he
(22:27):
would iconically be played byDoug Jones. Jones would have one
single foam latex prostheticon his face and neck. It was so thin
and delicate, it needed twomakeup artists to apply it every
day. With his mouth stitchesglued into the facial prosthetic
between shots. The stitcheswere disconnected so Jones could
(22:47):
eat, drink and talk. He alsowore foam latex gloves which allowed
additional length to hisfingertips, which were sculpted with
long nails. As well as wearinga spandex suit and his costume with
visible zombie arms and legs.They also cast his teeth so they
could build a special riginside his mouth to house moths and
(23:08):
dust. His pre cut mouthstitches would be sliced open by
Jones with a blunt knifeacross his mouth. Open his mouth
up and cough up some dust andlive moths. The mouth rig was essentially
a latex pocket attachedbetween upper and lower dentures,
which completely blocked histhroat with a small hole at the back
(23:28):
so he could puff air throughit. The animal wrangler would place
several live moths in thepocket with tweezers under the supervision
of a representative from theHumane Society. And then the stitches
were glued shut. And thiswhole process took a few takes for
Doug Jones to get right. Butthe finished article is so authentically
(23:49):
brilliant because they aregenuine live moths coming out of
his mouth. A bit like a coupleof episodes ago, I was talking about
Tony Todd and the bees inCandyman. This is A very similar
thing, Although there was nofear of Doug Jones getting stung
by moths. More was actuallyshot of the witches together getting
up to various acts ofmischief. And many of these scenes
(24:11):
ended up in the earlytrailers. But when it came to putting
the film together, it wasdeciding to focus more on the children
characters and Binx the catthan the witches. Speaking of Binx,
he was a mix of real cats,animatronics and very early cgi.
The crew at Alterion, a LosAngeles based special effects studio,
(24:33):
built the animatronic Binx. Inaddition to the hero Animatronic
Binx, there were floppy cats,posable standing cats, and inflatable
versions of Binx. Rhythm andHues Studion created the CGI version
of Binx and ensured his facialfeatures would resemble a real cat.
They went to great lengths tomake him realistic with sharp fangs
(24:56):
to make his feline featureslook real. However, the producers
felt he might be too scary foryoung audiences, so they scaled his
fangs back to make him seemfriendlier. The same animatronic
Binx was reused for the TVseries Sabrina the Teenage Witch,
who also has a black catcalled Salem. Salem, who was also
(25:17):
played by real cats, was theonly character other than Sabrina
herself to appear in all 163episodes of Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
Hocus Pocus is the first timea CG skeleton was applied over a
real cat's head and then usingthe mouse movement to mix in with
the animatronics. And it stilllooks really fantastic to this day.
(25:41):
Binx the cat is one of thegreatest cat characters I think that's
ever been put to film becausehe looks so realistic. Of the real
cats that were used for Binx,there were many different cats, but
they all did different things.Some cats were good at swiping, some
cats were good at running,some cats were good at sitting still.
And so different cats wereused for different areas of the movie.
(26:03):
Production of Hocus pocusbegan on 12 October 1992, and while
the movie is set in Salem,much of the interior filming actually
took place in California. Butsome of the most iconic settings
of the film were filmed inSalem and nearby Marblehead. The
opening shots of 1600 Salemwere filmed in Pioneer Village, a
(26:25):
living history museum built in1930 in Forest River Park. Tours
of the village are apparentlyavailable during the summer, and
the village is open throughoutthe day on Saturdays and Sundays
through the month of October.While you can peek inside the village's
houses, none of them were usedfor the interior scenes of the movie.
(26:46):
Max and Allison's School wasfilmed at the closed Philips Elementary
School in Washington Square,Salem. The school closed to pupils
in 1992, so it was easilyavailable for filming. It's since
been converted intoapartments. The graveyard near Max's
home where he gets accosted bybullies was filmed at Old Burial
(27:06):
Hill in Marblehead, and Maxand Danny's family home is a real
house on Ocean Avenue, Salem.The rest of the interior scenes were
filmed on sound stages on theDisney Studios lot in Burbank, California,
including a full sized housewith a working water wheel and a
graveyard set built onSoundstage two, where the production
(27:28):
designers even got the smellsright using foliage, dry leaves and
mulch. And of course, theSanderson Sisters are enduring gay
icons. They are theatrical,campy, witty, fantastical, dramatic
and impeccably dressed. Midleris and always has been a gay icon.
(27:48):
Sarah Jessica Parker is CarrieBradshaw. Sister Act also has its
own queer fans who know ofKathy Najimy. And no one embraces
the Sandersons more than thequeer community and the drag queens.
It's just a bunch of HocusPocus is the longest running Hocus
Pocus drag tribute show. Theywere shut down by the fire marshal
(28:10):
after 500 people tried toattend their 10 minute bar show and
the performance ballooned intoa several show affair. Now it's an
hour long production with setsand numbers one that draws at least
2,000 visitors annually. Dragperformer Ginger Minj, a longtime
fan of the film, created andstars in Hocus Pocus Live, a theatrical
(28:32):
production with original songsand performances that celebrates
the Sanderson Sisters. BetteMidler has even given her blessing
for the show, encouragingGinger Minj to continue. The popularity
of the Sandersons as draginspiration is so widespread that
Hocus Pocus 2 even featuresGinger Minj, Kahmora hall and Kornbread
(28:54):
as Sanderson's sister'simpersonators in the film. I'm not
really sure how I can seguefrom that into this. There is literally
no way. But it is time for theobligatory Keanu reference of this
episode. And if you're newhere and you don't know what that
is, it's why I try and linkthe movie that I'm featuring with
Keanu Reeves for no reasonother than he is the best of men
(29:17):
and he would never haveaccused the Sanderson Sisters of
witchcraft. And this is areally fun obligatory Keanu reference
actually, because thereference is a quote from a movie
and the quote is she's agoddamn witch. She's putting spells
on every damn body in town.That is said by Keanu Reeves as the
(29:39):
character Donnie Barksdale inthe Gift, directed by Sam Raimi.
It is a movie that I have notseen, so I don't know if there are
actually any witches in thatmovie, but it is directed by Sam
Raimi, so surely there's somesort of spooky connection. Anyway,
I thought that was a nicelittle reference for Keanu to be
(30:00):
mentioning witches and spells.You'll remember from my episode of
Super Mario Bros. That thesong Almost Unreal by Swedish pop
duo Roxette was originallymeant to be included in this movie
soundtrack, not Super MarioBrothers. It's one of my favorite
little pieces of movie triviain that a band can try and get a
(30:23):
song in a movie by putting thetitle of the movie in the song, and
yet the song ends up in acompletely different movie. I highly
rate Super Mario Brothers, bythe way. That is episode 261 of this
podcast James Horner wasoriginally slated to score Hocus
Pocus, but he becameunavailable at the last minute. David
(30:43):
Kirschner then suggested JohnDebney, but due to his lack of experience
with working on a major motionpicture, Disney turned him down.
But it was thanks toKirchner's persistence that Debney
would be the perfect choicethat he was finally given the opportunity
to be the composer. He createdand produced the entire score for
Hocus Pocus in two weeks andlater went on to win a New Composer
(31:07):
Award. James Horner would comeback to write Sarah's Theme, sung
by Sarah Jessica Parker. It'smore commonly known as Come Little
Children, allegedly as anapology to Kirshner. But of course,
despite all of this, therelease of this movie is kind of
where this movie goes a littlebit downhill. But it doesn't matter
(31:29):
when your movie releases if noone knows it's coming. And the marketing
campaign for Hocus Pocus wasalmost non existent except for a
set visit by EntertainmentTonight and the three Sanderson sisters
appearing individually on theToday show with Katie Couric to support
the film the week it came out.But when the original stars of this
(31:51):
movie, Thora Burch and VinessaShaw, were asked about being invited
to a premiere, they don'tactually remember being invited to
a premiere, or indeed themovie having a premiere at all. There
was a sneak peek at some pointin the US on 10 July 1993, but no
official premiere of the moviethat I can find any information on.
(32:17):
So the question remains, whywas Hocus Pocus released during the
summer of 1993 and thequestion came down really, to who
was more important to Disney,Tim Burton or Bette Midler? Disney
were working on anotherHalloween themed project in 1993,
Tim Burton's The NightmareBefore Christmas, and Katzenberg
(32:39):
found himself in the awkwardposition of having to choose between
keeping Bette Midler or TimBurton happy. Disney didn't want
to compete with itself, andultimately it was decided that the
Nightmare Before Christmascould work as either a Halloween
or a Christmas movie. So itmade sense to release that in October.
Despite David Kirschnerlobbying the studio for an October
(33:02):
release of Hocus Pocus, itfell on deaf ears. Hocus Pocus was
released during the summerschool holidays with the hope it
would still be around byOctober. Kirchner recalled being
literally in tears when hefound out Hocus Pocus would be competing
with Steven Spielberg'sJurassic juggernaut. And when it
(33:24):
was released on 16 July 1993,it was a crowded summer at the box
office. The firm was numberone, in the Line of Fire was number
two, and Jurassic park wasthird. After six weeks in cinemas,
Hocus Pocus opened at fourth.It also came out the same week as
Free Willy, which opened atfifth, and both were competing for
(33:47):
that lucrative family market.Free Willy would do better. Jumping
in its second week, literallyFree Willy jumping with Hocus Pocus,
then Moving down to eight,Hocus Pocus would be out of the top
10 by its third week. BetteMidler has been very vocal about
her own love for Hocus Pocus,repeatedly calling Winifred one of
(34:09):
her favorite roles in herextensive career. But in the immediate
aftermath of the movie hittingcinemas, it may have been a slightly
different story becausereportedly after the lukewarm reception
to its initial release, Midlerwasn't very happy with the bad reviews.
But as time progressed, thecritical reaction to the movie improved.
(34:29):
People were starting to see itat Halloween, and maybe Midler now
sees the love people have forthe movie and for Winifred Sanderson.
The whole cast was prettydisappointed by the movie not doing
as well as they hoped, but thetide seemingly started to turn after
it started being broadcast onABC and the Disney channel in the
(34:49):
US in the late 90s. It thengot a DVD release in 2002, which
sped up in sales in 2008.Every October since 2011, the movie
has made more than $1 billionin DVD sales. That's $1 million every
year. Hocus Pocus is a stapleof three forms, 31 nights of Halloween
(35:12):
programming, and the kids whogrew up with it in the 90s are now
parents themselves and sharingthe movie with their own children.
On its $28 million budget,Hocus Pocus would gross $39.5 million
worldwide. However, the moviehas been re released multiple times,
including for its 30thanniversary in 2023. But of course
(35:35):
those numbers don't includeDVD sales, nor do they include any
viewing figures for itsvarious TV or Disney releases. Critically,
it sits at 41% of RottenTomatoes, with a critics consensus
saying harmlessly hokey yetnever much more than mediocre, Hocus
Pocus is a muddled, familyfriendly effort that fails to live
(35:58):
up to the talents of itsimpressive cast, and the first rumblings
of Hocus Pocus 2 didn'tsurface until the early 2010s coinciding
with the 20th anniversary. Buteven then Disney were unsure whether
or not they'd even wanted it.When David Kirshner and his writing
partner first pitched thesequel to Disney's feature film division,
(36:20):
Disney declined it aftersitting on it for six months. Kirschner
was determined though andasked for permission to pitch the
movie elsewhere. Disney agreedand Freeform Worldwide, a Disney
subsidiary, agreed to make it,but after four or five months in
development at Freeform,Disney Channel took over the project
and it eventually would landat Disney plus. The original idea
(36:45):
for a sequel continued thestory with Salem's next generation
of teens, including Max andAlison's 17 year old daughter Poppy,
who has her own encounter withthe Sanderson sisters. And this was
the plot when it was announcedas a free form TV movie. But obviously
that's not the movie we endedup with, and while Vanessa Shaw,
(37:06):
Thora Birch and Omri Katz hadall previously expressed interest
in returning for a sequel, theonly returning stars in Hocus Pocus
2 are Bette Midler, SarahJessica Parker and Kathy Njimmy as
the three Sanderson sistersand Doug Jones as Billy Butcherson.
Hocus Pocus 2 was released on30 September 2022 on Disney and it
(37:29):
made its broadcast TV debut on6 October 2024 as part of Freeform's
31 Nights of Halloween lineup.A second sequel is currently in production,
but fundamentally theconclusion of this story is that
over three decades later, thepeople involved in Hocus Pocus love
(37:50):
it as much as the fans do, andthe fans really, really love it.
It's remarkable that a moviecan find a new audience and become
a fan favorite decades afterthose first fans like me really loved
it, and it's been fueled bymany things nostalgic reminiscing
Halloween becoming more of aninternational holiday, and, of course,
(38:11):
the queerness of it all. Iwatched this movie all the time as
a kid, so to me, this wasalways a Halloween movie, and I had
no idea it wasn't a big hit.I'll admit my fondness for it over
time has subsided a little,but I respect the hell out of anything
that can find an audience overtime and anything that can bring
quite this much joy toHalloween. Bette Midler's performance
(38:34):
of I Put a spell on you islegendary and well worth a rewatch
on YouTube. In 2018, Disneyand Free Fall hosted a 25th anniversary
celebration for Hocus Pocus,bringing together fans, cast members,
and celebrities of theHollywood Forever cemetery to celebrate
the impact of the movie. Theevent featured musical performances
(38:58):
of I put a spell on you andCome little Children and a costume
contest. And it's even moreincredible, really, when you realize
that there is a dark heart toHocus Pocus. Some of the best family
movies do have them. This is amovie that shows hanging, shows witches
sucking the life force fromchildren, effectively killing children.
(39:18):
But it also shows a part ofhistory that has become sanitized.
Women being accused ofwitchcraft was another way to subjugate
women. And these sisters, allunmarried, were likely already on
the fringes of society beforewitchcraft was even considered. The
irony of all of this, ofcourse, is that the original Salem
witches didn't actually do anywitchcraft at all. They were just
(39:41):
accused of it. 300 years havepassed, and while we're not being
accused of witchcraft, thesame societal expectations are still
there. I bet the Sandersonsisters feel right at home in 1993
Salem. If anything, the factthat they've still got the same career
goals they had 300 years agois something to be admired. They
are so focused on killingchildren and recapturing their youth
(40:04):
and beauty because they knowthat these days, that's more desired
than it ever has been. Mostpeople need a plastic surgeon. They
just need the life essence ofa child. Comme CI comme sa. There's
also the virgin of it all. Inmovies, virgins are depicted by young
women, and it's the youngwoman who has to be sacrificed. But
(40:26):
instead of having Allison orDani light the candle, the movie
has monks do the deed.Depictions of male virginity in movies
and TV is still exceedinglyrare, and Hocus Pocus may be one
of the only ones aimed at ayoung audience that does this, that
doesn't frame it, thatvirginity is something that you have
(40:46):
to lose. Max is allowed todisplay traits of sensitivity and
inexperience. His virginityisn't played as a shameful thing.
It's not something he'sfighting to rid himself of like American
Pie. But it is so very 90s inthat virginity is something that
can do something, becausevirginity is a social construct,
(41:07):
and this idea of purity hasalways been something that has been
used to subjugate women. Oneof the things I really love about
this movie is the familialrelationships that are at the core
between a brother and a sisterteam. Except these brother and sister
Teams are 300 years apart.Thackery Binx couldn't save his sister
(41:27):
Emily, but Max can save Dani,and he sacrifices himself, or at
least attempts to, so Dannydoesn't suffer Emily's fate. And
it's a really sweet thing tosee, especially in a movie where
it's very clear that thisparticular brother and sister don't
always get on. Butfundamentally, Max loves his sister
and Danny loves Max. This wasalso the rare family move that featured
(41:52):
women front and center, aswell as women of different ages,
different body types, andwomen that could be all things menacing,
sexy and funny, but also thepower and loyalty of sisters and
the differences betweensisters. Their bond is unbreakable
even when Winifred is annoyedat Mary's idiocy or Sarah having
(42:14):
an affair with BillyButcherson. Sisters before Misters
Women don't need to beconstantly likable in our media,
but Mostly whether you're 30or 300, this is a movie about never
conforming and never fittingin. This is a movie about embracing
who you are. The strange, theweird, the queer, the flamboyant.
(42:36):
And if you're an evil witch,well, embrace that too. Thank you
for listening. As always, Iwould love to hear your thoughts
on Hocus Pocus. And thank youfor your continued support of this
podcast. If you want to helpthis podcast grow and reach more
people, you could leave arating or review wherever you found
this episode. You can retweetor like posts on social media. I
(42:58):
am Erbaldiorama where you canfollow me, you can like the posts
that I put out, you cancomment on posts as well and it all
helps with the visibility ofthis podcast. You can also tell your
friends and family about thispodcast and how to get this podcast.
The next episode of thispodcast. I actually mentioned him
a little bit earlier in thisepisode. Sam Raimi is well known
(43:20):
nowadays for being a legendaryhorror director, but back in the
early 1980s he was just asmall time indie horror director
who had to scrape togetherfunds and an inexperienced crew to
make his low budget secondfeature. That movie was in 1981 and
it was called the Evil Deadand it was a movie that basically
(43:43):
spawned Sam Raimi's career,spawned cult favorite Ash Williams,
and gave us the legendaryBruce Campbell along with some incredible
gory effects. I'm so excitedto be talking next episode about
the evil dead from 1981. Soplease join me next episode for the
history and legacy of the EvilDead. If you enjoy what I do for
(44:06):
this podcast and you want tosupport an indie podcaster who does
everything on her own, if youhave spare change you can financially
contribute to the upkeep ofthis podcast. You're under no obligation.
This podcast is free andalways will be and just by listening
to this podcast you are indeedsupporting this podcast. However,
if you do enjoy what I do, youget value out of what I do. There
(44:28):
are a couple of ways you canhelp if you have the means to. You
can make a one offdonation@verbaldiorama.com tips or
you can subscribe to thepatreon@verbaldiorama.com patreon
all money made goes back intothis podcast by paying for things
like software subscriptions,website hosting and new equipment.
(44:49):
Huge thank you to theincredible patrons of this podcast.
I literally could not do thiswithout their support. I'm so grateful
to them to Simon, Laurel,Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke, Michael,
Scott, Brendan, Ian, Lisa,Sam, Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas
so Kev, Heather, Danny, Stu,Brett, Philip M. Zenos, Sean, Rhino,
(45:12):
Philip K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle,Aaron, and Connor. If you want to
get in touch with me, you canemail verbaldioramail.com you can
say hi. You can give feedbackor suggestions. You can also go to
verbaldiorama.com and fill outthe contact form. I'd love to hear
from people. So if you have aquestion or a comment or you simply
(45:33):
want to talk about a recentepisode, please feel free to get
in touch. You can also messageme on social media as well if you
wish. I would genuinely loveto hear from you. So if you're listening
and you've always wanted toget in touch, I promise not to put
a spell on you because of allthe witches working I'm the best
and finally
(47:53):
Bye.
Hi, everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to verbal diorama, episode
317, Hocus Pocus. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies. Youknow, and maybe you don't. That puts
a spell on you. And now you'remine? You can't stop the things I
do? I ain't lying. Been 317episodes right down to the day. Now
(02:12):
the witch is back and there'shell to pay? I put a spell on youa,andndnowyou're
mine. Welcome to VerbalDiorama. Whether you're a regular
returning listener, whetheryou're an irregular returning listener,
whether you're abrandnebrand-newwlistenertothispodcast.Thankyouforbeing here.
(02:32):
Thank you for choosing tolisten to this podcast. I'm so happy
to have you here for thehistory and legacy of Hocus Pocus.
Huge thank you to the regularreturning listeners. Without you,
I would not still be doingwhat I'm doing for the last almost
seven years now. It's crazy.Huge thank you for your support.
It genuinely means so much.And the traditional spooky season
(02:56):
on Verbal Diorama Softlaunched with the devil's advocate
a few episodes ago, but sincethen launched properly for Candyman
and last week, Wes Craven'snew nightmare. And now something
more family friendly. Itdidn't quite start off as family
friendly as it became, but itstill features a hanging stealing
children's souls and siblingsGary and Penny Marshall as husband
(03:20):
and wife. This is a movie thatflopped in 1993, but like Billy Butcherson,
kept coming back to life.Perhaps it is all just a bunch of
Hocus pocus. Or perfect. Thespell just took a while to affect
us all. Here's the trailer forHocus Pocus.
(05:31):
In 1693, the Sanderson sistersare accused of witchcraft by the
Salem townspeople. But beforethey're hanged, eldest sister Winifred
casts a spell saying that theywill be resurrected when a virgin
lights the black flame candle.Fast forward 300 years to 1993. Newcomer
to Salem from Los Angeles,Max. He's bullied at school and has
(05:53):
a crush on his schoolmateAlison. On Halloween night, his parents
force him to go trick ortreating with his younger sister
Danny. While their parents goto a party, Max, Dany and Alison
decide to go to the house ofthe Sanderson sisters, which is now
a derelict museum. Max tauntsthe legendary curse and despite being
a virgin, decides to light theblack flame candle, bringing back
(06:18):
Winifred, Sarah and MarySanderson. Let's run through the
cast of this movie. We haveBette Midler as Winifred Sanderson,
Sarah Jessica Parker as SarahSanderson, Kathy Najimy as Mary Sanderson
Omri Katz as Max DennisonThora Birch as Dani Dennison, Vinessa
(06:38):
Shaw as Allison Watts, CharlesRockett as David Denison, Stephanie
Faracy as Jennifer Dennison,Sean Murray as Thackerey Binx, Jason
Marsden as the voice ofThackerey Binks and Doug Jones as
Billy Butcherson. Hocus Pocushas a screenplay by Mick Garris and
Neil Cuthbert, story by DavidKirschner and Mick Garris, and was
(07:02):
directed by Kenny Ortega. AndHocus Pocus is a beloved Halloween
classic. A movie that iswatched repeatedly every October
by families all over theworld. The Sanderson Sisters merchandise
is across the Internet, fromHalloween costumes to books to Funko
pops to T shirts to even aLego set of the Sanderson house.
(07:25):
But Hocus Pocus wasn't alwayslike this. It came out in the crowded
summer of 1993. Yes, summer.The summer of Jurassic park, the
summer of the Firm, the summerof Robin Hood, Men in Tights, which
is still the biggest everepisode of this podcast. Don't ask
me why, it just is. But howdid Hocus Pocus go from a box office
(07:47):
disappointment to not only aHalloween classic, universally beloved
by families, but also a pieceof queer cinema becoming inspiration
for drag queens across theworld? Hocus Pocus started life as
a bedtime story that DavidKirshner, writer and producer, would
make up for his daughters. Hewould tell them that the neighbor's
(08:09):
black cap contained the soulof a young boy who had been cursed
by witches to live in felineform and whose children loved the
slightly spooky stories. So hecreated this trio of witches. Kirschner
is no stranger to this podcastand not a horror, because he was
also the guy who created thefirst images of Chucky from Child's
(08:32):
Play. That's episode 274 ofthis podcast from last October. The
idea of three witches, theSanderson sisters, hanged in the
1600s and then resurrected bySalem children, had all the makings
of a Halloween story.Kirschner had previously written
a story about a little Jewishmouse. That little Jewish mouse story
(08:54):
had led to working with StevenSpielberg on the movie of that story,
which was An American Tale, amovie that may or may not be coming
to this podcast very soon.Kirschner's Halloween short story,
which was called HalloweenHouse, was published in Muppet Magazine,
and he developed that into thefirst draft of a screenplay. A meeting
(09:16):
was scheduled betweenKirschner and Jeffrey Katzenberg,
who worked at Disney at thetime. He was the guy who'd famously
declined Kirschner's idea forAn American Tale, which had ended
up at Amblin with the famousquote, who wants to watch a movie
about a Jewish mouse? I mean,it turned out that quite a lot of
people actually wanted towatch a movie about a Jewish mouse,
(09:39):
because An American Tale endedup huge. Kirschner went all out to
impress Katzenberg forHalloween House with a conference
room filled with a cauldron ofdry ice, candy corn, pumpkins and
a broom, a mop and a vacuumcleaner suspended from the ceiling.
Katzenberg was not impressedwith the theatrics, but he was impressed
(10:00):
when Kirschner mentioned thatHalloween was a billion dollar business.
Maybe that was somethingDisney might be interested in. And
of course, Katzenberg wanted aslice of that pumpkin pie. Now, memories
differ on this particularscenario, because while Kirschner
insists the pitch was toKatzenberg and Disney. Mick Garris
(10:21):
says the pitch was to StevenSpielberg. Both David Kirschner and
Mick Garris were in the room,but Kirchner would insist his version
of events was correct becauseKathleen Kennedy, Spielberg's producing
partner, was called outKirschner for hurting Spielberg's
feelings by pitching toKatzenberg instead of the guy who
gave him his big break with anAmerican tail. And Spielberg took
(10:44):
it as a personal slight.Kirschner would obviously sell his
idea to Disney, and he didwant Spielberg involved in the movie
because the guy had a way withmagical kids fantasy movies in the
80s. But Disney and Amblinweren't really best buds and they
were each other's competitionfor that lucrative family market
(11:04):
and neither wanted to be inbusiness with the other. And so it
turned out that An AmericanTale would be more keen to the success
of Hocus Pocus than anyonewould ever realize. Now, Amblin and
Disney did have somewhat of arelationship in the late 80s. They
had joint custody of whoFramed Roger Rabbit with each company
owning half. But therelationship quickly soured after
(11:28):
that movie was released in1988, and the deal for Amblin to
develop a series of shores tobe produced at Walt Disney Feature
Animation soon fell by thewayside when the shared custody of
the shorts and their successmeant Disney wanting a bigger slice
of the pie and Spielbergscrapping the remaining shorts. Kirchner's
(11:48):
original idea was mixed withMick Garris more grown up, more frightening,
more tween based horrorscript, which included the creation
of Billy Butcherson. AndGarris's darker tone gradually become
more comedic thanks to cowriter Neil Cuthbert and about a
dozen uncredited writers whotook a stab at the script for Hocus
(12:08):
Pocus over an eight yearperiod. While the movie sat in development
hell, it went from a tweenhorror to having teenage protagonists
to having two teenagers andone child. The title Hocus Pocus
came thanks to co writer NeilCuthbert. He crafted the line from
Max it's just a bunch of hocuspocus as an explanation for him being
(12:31):
the virgin who lights theblack flame candle. A candle no one
thought to get rid of in 300years, saying that I still have some
Yankee candles that are about10 years old that still have life
in them. So who knows? Anddevelopment hell is where the newly
minted Hocus Pocus sat forabout eight years until Bette Midler
(12:52):
came along. Winifred Sandersonhad been written with Cloris Leachman
in mind. Leachman, who died in2021 was a Best Supporting Actress
Academy Award winner and aBAFTA Supporting Actress winner for
the Last Picture show as wellas a Golden Globe winner for best
actress in 1974 for Phyllis an an eight time Primetime Emmy
(13:13):
award winner. But if you'regoing to replace Cloris Leachman,
you replace her with threetime Emmy winning, three time Grammy
winning, two time Tonywinning, four time Golden Globe winning
Bachelor nominated and doubleAcademy Award nominee, The Divine
Ms. M. Bette Midler. She'sonly an Oscar away from an EGOT.
(13:34):
Bette Midler was a big namefor Jeffrey Katzenberg under the
Disney owned TouchstonePictures banner. She was a powerhouse
for the studio in the late 80swith starring roles in 1986's down
and Out in Beverly Hills andRuthless People and 1987's Outrageous
Fortune and did big businessin 1988 in Big Business. And she
(13:56):
also lent her voice to theDisney animated classic, and it is
a classic, Oliver and Companyas the voice of Georgette. In fact,
Disney wanted Midler so muchthat Katzenberg signed her to a three
picture deal in 1987,something exceedingly rare in Hollywood
for a studio and a star tocommit to in the late 80s. It would
(14:18):
lead to probably her most wellknown movie, Beaches. But the early
90s would be a small bump inthe road for Middler's run of more
or less constant success withStella, Scenes From a Mall and For
the Boys, all strugglingeither critically or commercially.
But the other thing that hadchanged for Bette Midler was in 1986
(14:39):
she had given birth to adaughter and that little girl was
now interested in watchingsome of her mother's films. The problem
was none of her films weresuitable for a young child. And so
the idea of taking onsomething like Hocus Pocus was a
way to diversify her roles andgive her daughter something she could
watch. And as soon as BetteMidler signed on the dotted line
(15:01):
to play Winifred, everythingjust fell into place. Midler essentially
greenlit the movie and Midlerfully committed to the bit for Winifred.
Director Kenny Ortega wasmostly known as a choreographer,
famously working as one onPretty in Pink, Ferris Bueller's
Day off, where he was also asecond unit director and most famously,
(15:22):
Dirty Dancing. He made hisdirectorial debut in 1992 for Disney
with Newsies, which flopped atthe box office but became a cult
classic. His sophomoredirectorial effort was Hocus Pocus
and he'd worked with BetteMidler before. And her being involved
was enough for Ortega to dropeverything and say yes, and with
(15:43):
Ortega being a choreographerand him knowing Bette Midler could
hold the tune, he's the oneresponsible for the I put a spell
on you scene. It was somethingDavid Kirschner questioned in the
middle of a dramatic chase tostop the action for a musical number.
But Ortega insisted and it'sbecome one of the most well known
scenes in the movie with BetteMidler going full divine, Miss Anne
(16:07):
and Kathy Najimi and SarahJessica Parker as her backup singers.
Based on Midler's real lifebackup singers, the Harletts, the
song was specifically arrangedfor Midler. Marc Shaiman, who wrote
the Broadway hit Hairspray andworked with Midler on Beaches, arranged
the song specifically for her.He wanted it to sound like a Midler
(16:28):
concert opening number.Getting the rights to the original
1956 song by Screamin' JayHawkins wasn't easy, so the writers
had to try and figure out howto get those lyrics and the song
different enough so they couldstill use it. Midler contributed
the line of of all the witchesworking owing the worst to the song.
(16:48):
She would regularly performher hocus pocus rendition of I put
a spell on you on tour wearingWinifred's dress, wig and signature
makeup. Going back to Midler,fully committed to the bit for Winifred
because she really genuinelydid. Speaking of backup singers and
her fellow sisters, KathyNajimy fresh off of Sister act, the
(17:12):
same sister at the Midlerturned down the fears of her public
image being tarnished byplaying a nun. That story's in episode
295 of this podcast. She playsthe shy sister Mary. Rosie o' Donnell
had been originallyapproached, but she turned it down,
not wanting to play a witch.Najimy didn't want to play a stereotypical
(17:32):
witch because she fullybelieves in white witches and she
discussed Mary's character atlength with Kenny Ortega, concerned
about witches who wanted tokill children. But ultimately the
bet middle of it all was thereason she signed on. Najimy cam
up with Mary's crazy hairstyleand crooked mouth which she uses
to help smell children. SarahJessica Parker was unaware of her
(17:57):
links to Salem when she tookon the role of younger sister Sarah.
Esther Elwell, Parker's 10thgreat grandmother, was arrested in
Salem for committing sundryact of witchcraft in 1692. Elwell
was accused of bewitching MaryFitch, the young sister of a deacon,
claiming that Esther Elwellused her spirit to torment Mary,
(18:19):
who later died due to thisalleged bewitching. Elwell's case
never went to trial becausethe Court had banned the use of spectral
evidence the previous month,which gave the prosecutors little
evidence to go on. EstherElwell was released from prison by
the Governor, Sir WilliamPhipps, free to live out the remainder
of her life. Thirteengenerations later, Sarah Jessica
(18:43):
Parker was born. Parker didn'tknow about Esther Elwell until appearing
on Who Do Yo Think You Are?In 2010, but it's a remarkable connection
and Parker would actuallyrelish being in the air suspended
on wires unlike most of thecast, but this was the early 90s
and being suspended on wireswas very much a thing. Most of the
(19:03):
cast did their own flyingstunts, including the then 10 year
old Thora Burch as DaniDennison, and Midler would make sure
the young actor was keptentertained during long shoots. Birch,
who would go on to become acult favourite actor in her own right,
learned what a virgin was onset because she was 10. Of course
she didn't know. She wouldlove the entire experience, but especially
(19:26):
the Halloween party scene.Omri Katz, who I had a huge crush
on from his Eerie Indianadays, I absolutely loved that show
and it was bizarrely onBritish tv. I think it was on BBC
too. Katz would also bring thevoice of Thackeray Binks with him
from Erie, Indiana, JasonMarsden. Because the pair were friends,
(19:48):
he would overdub Sean Murray'sperformance as the human version
of Binks, which wasn't aparticularly easy task, as well as
voice the cat version ofBinks, which also wasn't particularly
easy for him to match hismouth to the cat's mouth. But Omri
Katz wasn't the first choicefor the role of Max. It was originally
offered to a young actor whowowed the producers, Leonardo DiCaprio.
(20:13):
DiCaprio declined the role toinstead film What's Eating Gilbert
Grape, a performance thatwould get him his first Oscar nomination
at just 20 years old, which ispotentially something that hocus
Pocus could never have givenhim. Hiring a bunch of actors who
could do comedy and actors whocould give each character a bit of
nuance meant the script wasupdated to include more physical
(20:36):
comedy. Bette Midler wasdedicated to using period accurate
curse words. She also had asay in what she wore. Not wanting
to go for the traditional allblack witches gal with a black hat,
and the costumes here are downto Hollywood costume designer Mary
Vogt. Vogt worked with KennyOrtega, who, unlike other directors,
(20:57):
wanted the weird and theoutrageous. Taking inspiration from
storybook illustrator ArthurRackham, Spanish artist Goya and
his series Los Capricos andFairy Tales, Vogt worked with each
of the main three actors tobuild their costumes. Bette Midler
had already started to havered hair, and so Vogt suggested she
wear green with a purpleaccent, along with symbols on her
(21:20):
robe from the rune alphabetand Stonehenge. Sarah Jessica Parker,
with her trademark long blondehair, looked like a Disney princess.
And so Vogt designed her dressin line with Sleeping Beauty. And
Kathy Najimy, with her darkhair and generally tasked with mixing
the potions, was designed as awitch banker. But unlike the specially
(21:42):
designed costumes for thewitches, most of the Halloween party
scene costumes were from theWalt Disney costume department, because
by that point, the movie hadrun out of money and just needed
any costume available, whichis why the Supremes appear at the
party. It was also usefulbecause it was a Disney movie. There
was no need to worry aboutrights to costumes or characters.
(22:05):
For some time after HocusPocus initial release, you could
rent out the actual costumesworn by Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica
Parker, and Kathy Najimy. Butthen the movie grew in popularity
and this practice quicklystopped. Billy Butcherson was based
on Vogt's childhood storybookdrawings of Ichabod Crane, and he
(22:27):
would iconically be played byDoug Jones. Jones would have one
single foam latex prostheticon his face and neck. It was so thin
and delicate, it needed twomakeup artists to apply it every
day. With his mouth stitchesglued into the facial prosthetic
between shots. The stitcheswere disconnected so Jones could
(22:47):
eat, drink and talk. He alsowore foam latex gloves which allowed
additional length to hisfingertips, which were sculpted with
long nails. As well as wearinga spandex suit and his costume with
visible zombie arms and legs.They also cast his teeth so they
could build a special riginside his mouth to house moths and
(23:08):
dust. His pre cut mouthstitches would be sliced open by
Jones with a blunt knifeacross his mouth. Open his mouth
up and cough up some dust andlive moths. The mouth rig was essentially
a latex pocket attachedbetween upper and lower dentures,
which completely blocked histhroat with a small hole at the back
(23:28):
so he could puff air throughit. The animal wrangler would place
several live moths in thepocket with tweezers under the supervision
of a representative from theHumane Society. And then the stitches
were glued shut. And thiswhole process took a few takes for
Doug Jones to get right. Butthe finished article is so authentically
(23:49):
brilliant because they aregenuine live moths coming out of
his mouth. A bit like a coupleof episodes ago, I was talking about
Tony Todd and the bees inCandyman. This is A very similar
thing, Although there was nofear of Doug Jones getting stung
by moths. More was actuallyshot of the witches together getting
up to various acts ofmischief. And many of these scenes
(24:11):
ended up in the earlytrailers. But when it came to putting
the film together, it wasdeciding to focus more on the children
characters and Binx the catthan the witches. Speaking of Binx,
he was a mix of real cats,animatronics and very early cgi.
The crew at Alterion, a LosAngeles based special effects studio,
(24:33):
built the animatronic Binx. Inaddition to the hero Animatronic
Binx, there were floppy cats,posable standing cats, and inflatable
versions of Binx. Rhythm andHues Studion created the CGI version
of Binx and ensured his facialfeatures would resemble a real cat.
They went to great lengths tomake him realistic with sharp fangs
(24:56):
to make his feline featureslook real. However, the producers
felt he might be too scary foryoung audiences, so they scaled his
fangs back to make him seemfriendlier. The same animatronic
Binx was reused for the TVseries Sabrina the Teenage Witch,
who also has a black catcalled Salem. Salem, who was also
(25:17):
played by real cats, was theonly character other than Sabrina
herself to appear in all 163episodes of Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
Hocus Pocus is the first timea CG skeleton was applied over a
real cat's head and then usingthe mouse movement to mix in with
the animatronics. And it stilllooks really fantastic to this day.
(25:41):
Binx the cat is one of thegreatest cat characters I think that's
ever been put to film becausehe looks so realistic. Of the real
cats that were used for Binx,there were many different cats, but
they all did different things.Some cats were good at swiping, some
cats were good at running,some cats were good at sitting still.
And so different cats wereused for different areas of the movie.
(26:03):
Production of Hocus pocusbegan on 12 October 1992, and while
the movie is set in Salem,much of the interior filming actually
took place in California. Butsome of the most iconic settings
of the film were filmed inSalem and nearby Marblehead. The
opening shots of 1600 Salemwere filmed in Pioneer Village, a
(26:25):
living history museum built in1930 in Forest River Park. Tours
of the village are apparentlyavailable during the summer, and
the village is open throughoutthe day on Saturdays and Sundays
through the month of October.While you can peek inside the village's
houses, none of them were usedfor the interior scenes of the movie.
(26:46):
Max and Allison's School wasfilmed at the closed Philips Elementary
School in Washington Square,Salem. The school closed to pupils
in 1992, so it was easilyavailable for filming. It's since
been converted intoapartments. The graveyard near Max's
home where he gets accosted bybullies was filmed at Old Burial
(27:06):
Hill in Marblehead, and Maxand Danny's family home is a real
house on Ocean Avenue, Salem.The rest of the interior scenes were
filmed on sound stages on theDisney Studios lot in Burbank, California,
including a full sized housewith a working water wheel and a
graveyard set built onSoundstage two, where the production
(27:28):
designers even got the smellsright using foliage, dry leaves and
mulch. And of course, theSanderson Sisters are enduring gay
icons. They are theatrical,campy, witty, fantastical, dramatic
and impeccably dressed. Midleris and always has been a gay icon.
(27:48):
Sarah Jessica Parker is CarrieBradshaw. Sister Act also has its
own queer fans who know ofKathy Najimy. And no one embraces
the Sandersons more than thequeer community and the drag queens.
It's just a bunch of HocusPocus is the longest running Hocus
Pocus drag tribute show. Theywere shut down by the fire marshal
(28:10):
after 500 people tried toattend their 10 minute bar show and
the performance ballooned intoa several show affair. Now it's an
hour long production with setsand numbers one that draws at least
2,000 visitors annually. Dragperformer Ginger Minj, a longtime
fan of the film, created andstars in Hocus Pocus Live, a theatrical
(28:32):
production with original songsand performances that celebrates
the Sanderson Sisters. BetteMidler has even given her blessing
for the show, encouragingGinger Minj to continue. The popularity
of the Sandersons as draginspiration is so widespread that
Hocus Pocus 2 even featuresGinger Minj, Kahmora hall and Kornbread
(28:54):
as Sanderson's sister'simpersonators in the film. I'm not
really sure how I can seguefrom that into this. There is literally
no way. But it is time for theobligatory Keanu reference of this
episode. And if you're newhere and you don't know what that
is, it's why I try and linkthe movie that I'm featuring with
Keanu Reeves for no reasonother than he is the best of men
(29:17):
and he would never haveaccused the Sanderson Sisters of
witchcraft. And this is areally fun obligatory Keanu reference
actually, because thereference is a quote from a movie
and the quote is she's agoddamn witch. She's putting spells
on every damn body in town.That is said by Keanu Reeves as the
(29:39):
character Donnie Barksdale inthe Gift, directed by Sam Raimi.
It is a movie that I have notseen, so I don't know if there are
actually any witches in thatmovie, but it is directed by Sam
Raimi, so surely there's somesort of spooky connection. Anyway,
I thought that was a nicelittle reference for Keanu to be
(30:00):
mentioning witches and spells.You'll remember from my episode of
Super Mario Bros. That thesong Almost Unreal by Swedish pop
duo Roxette was originallymeant to be included in this movie
soundtrack, not Super MarioBrothers. It's one of my favorite
little pieces of movie triviain that a band can try and get a
(30:23):
song in a movie by putting thetitle of the movie in the song, and
yet the song ends up in acompletely different movie. I highly
rate Super Mario Brothers, bythe way. That is episode 261 of this
podcast James Horner wasoriginally slated to score Hocus
Pocus, but he becameunavailable at the last minute. David
(30:43):
Kirschner then suggested JohnDebney, but due to his lack of experience
with working on a major motionpicture, Disney turned him down.
But it was thanks toKirchner's persistence that Debney
would be the perfect choicethat he was finally given the opportunity
to be the composer. He createdand produced the entire score for
Hocus Pocus in two weeks andlater went on to win a New Composer
(31:07):
Award. James Horner would comeback to write Sarah's Theme, sung
by Sarah Jessica Parker. It'smore commonly known as Come Little
Children, allegedly as anapology to Kirshner. But of course,
despite all of this, therelease of this movie is kind of
where this movie goes a littlebit downhill. But it doesn't matter
(31:29):
when your movie releases if noone knows it's coming. And the marketing
campaign for Hocus Pocus wasalmost non existent except for a
set visit by EntertainmentTonight and the three Sanderson sisters
appearing individually on theToday show with Katie Couric to support
the film the week it came out.But when the original stars of this
(31:51):
movie, Thora Burch and VinessaShaw, were asked about being invited
to a premiere, they don'tactually remember being invited to
a premiere, or indeed themovie having a premiere at all. There
was a sneak peek at some pointin the US on 10 July 1993, but no
official premiere of the moviethat I can find any information on.
(32:17):
So the question remains, whywas Hocus Pocus released during the
summer of 1993 and thequestion came down really, to who
was more important to Disney,Tim Burton or Bette Midler? Disney
were working on anotherHalloween themed project in 1993,
Tim Burton's The NightmareBefore Christmas, and Katzenberg
(32:39):
found himself in the awkwardposition of having to choose between
keeping Bette Midler or TimBurton happy. Disney didn't want
to compete with itself, andultimately it was decided that the
Nightmare Before Christmascould work as either a Halloween
or a Christmas movie. So itmade sense to release that in October.
Despite David Kirschnerlobbying the studio for an October
(33:02):
release of Hocus Pocus, itfell on deaf ears. Hocus Pocus was
released during the summerschool holidays with the hope it
would still be around byOctober. Kirchner recalled being
literally in tears when hefound out Hocus Pocus would be competing
with Steven Spielberg'sJurassic juggernaut. And when it
(33:24):
was released on 16 July 1993,it was a crowded summer at the box
office. The firm was numberone, in the Line of Fire was number
two, and Jurassic park wasthird. After six weeks in cinemas,
Hocus Pocus opened at fourth.It also came out the same week as
Free Willy, which opened atfifth, and both were competing for
(33:47):
that lucrative family market.Free Willy would do better. Jumping
in its second week, literallyFree Willy jumping with Hocus Pocus,
then Moving down to eight,Hocus Pocus would be out of the top
10 by its third week. BetteMidler has been very vocal about
her own love for Hocus Pocus,repeatedly calling Winifred one of
(34:09):
her favorite roles in herextensive career. But in the immediate
aftermath of the movie hittingcinemas, it may have been a slightly
different story becausereportedly after the lukewarm reception
to its initial release, Midlerwasn't very happy with the bad reviews.
But as time progressed, thecritical reaction to the movie improved.
(34:29):
People were starting to see itat Halloween, and maybe Midler now
sees the love people have forthe movie and for Winifred Sanderson.
The whole cast was prettydisappointed by the movie not doing
as well as they hoped, but thetide seemingly started to turn after
it started being broadcast onABC and the Disney channel in the
(34:49):
US in the late 90s. It thengot a DVD release in 2002, which
sped up in sales in 2008.Every October since 2011, the movie
has made more than $1 billionin DVD sales. That's $1 million every
year. Hocus Pocus is a stapleof three forms, 31 nights of Halloween
(35:12):
programming, and the kids whogrew up with it in the 90s are now
parents themselves and sharingthe movie with their own children.
On its $28 million budget,Hocus Pocus would gross $39.5 million
worldwide. However, the moviehas been re released multiple times,
including for its 30thanniversary in 2023. But of course
(35:35):
those numbers don't includeDVD sales, nor do they include any
viewing figures for itsvarious TV or Disney releases. Critically,
it sits at 41% of RottenTomatoes, with a critics consensus
saying harmlessly hokey yetnever much more than mediocre, Hocus
Pocus is a muddled, familyfriendly effort that fails to live
(35:58):
up to the talents of itsimpressive cast, and the first rumblings
of Hocus Pocus 2 didn'tsurface until the early 2010s coinciding
with the 20th anniversary. Buteven then Disney were unsure whether
or not they'd even wanted it.When David Kirshner and his writing
partner first pitched thesequel to Disney's feature film division,
(36:20):
Disney declined it aftersitting on it for six months. Kirschner
was determined though andasked for permission to pitch the
movie elsewhere. Disney agreedand Freeform Worldwide, a Disney
subsidiary, agreed to make it,but after four or five months in
development at Freeform,Disney Channel took over the project
and it eventually would landat Disney plus. The original idea
(36:45):
for a sequel continued thestory with Salem's next generation
of teens, including Max andAlison's 17 year old daughter Poppy,
who has her own encounter withthe Sanderson sisters. And this was
the plot when it was announcedas a free form TV movie. But obviously
that's not the movie we endedup with, and while Vanessa Shaw,
(37:06):
Thora Birch and Omri Katz hadall previously expressed interest
in returning for a sequel, theonly returning stars in Hocus Pocus
2 are Bette Midler, SarahJessica Parker and Kathy Njimmy as
the three Sanderson sistersand Doug Jones as Billy Butcherson.
Hocus Pocus 2 was released on30 September 2022 on Disney and it
(37:29):
made its broadcast TV debut on6 October 2024 as part of Freeform's
31 Nights of Halloween lineup.A second sequel is currently in production,
but fundamentally theconclusion of this story is that
over three decades later, thepeople involved in Hocus Pocus love
(37:50):
it as much as the fans do, andthe fans really, really love it.
It's remarkable that a moviecan find a new audience and become
a fan favorite decades afterthose first fans like me really loved
it, and it's been fueled bymany things nostalgic reminiscing
Halloween becoming more of aninternational holiday, and, of course,
(38:11):
the queerness of it all. Iwatched this movie all the time as
a kid, so to me, this wasalways a Halloween movie, and I had
no idea it wasn't a big hit.I'll admit my fondness for it over
time has subsided a little,but I respect the hell out of anything
that can find an audience overtime and anything that can bring
quite this much joy toHalloween. Bette Midler's performance
(38:34):
of I Put a spell on you islegendary and well worth a rewatch
on YouTube. In 2018, Disneyand Free Fall hosted a 25th anniversary
celebration for Hocus Pocus,bringing together fans, cast members,
and celebrities of theHollywood Forever cemetery to celebrate
the impact of the movie. Theevent featured musical performances
(38:58):
of I put a spell on you andCome little Children and a costume
contest. And it's even moreincredible, really, when you realize
that there is a dark heart toHocus Pocus. Some of the best family
movies do have them. This is amovie that shows hanging, shows witches
sucking the life force fromchildren, effectively killing children.
(39:18):
But it also shows a part ofhistory that has become sanitized.
Women being accused ofwitchcraft was another way to subjugate
women. And these sisters, allunmarried, were likely already on
the fringes of society beforewitchcraft was even considered. The
irony of all of this, ofcourse, is that the original Salem
witches didn't actually do anywitchcraft at all. They were just
(39:41):
accused of it. 300 years havepassed, and while we're not being
accused of witchcraft, thesame societal expectations are still
there. I bet the Sandersonsisters feel right at home in 1993
Salem. If anything, the factthat they've still got the same career
goals they had 300 years agois something to be admired. They
are so focused on killingchildren and recapturing their youth
(40:04):
and beauty because they knowthat these days, that's more desired
than it ever has been. Mostpeople need a plastic surgeon. They
just need the life essence ofa child. Comme CI comme sa. There's
also the virgin of it all. Inmovies, virgins are depicted by young
women, and it's the youngwoman who has to be sacrificed. But
(40:26):
instead of having Allison orDani light the candle, the movie
has monks do the deed.Depictions of male virginity in movies
and TV is still exceedinglyrare, and Hocus Pocus may be one
of the only ones aimed at ayoung audience that does this, that
doesn't frame it, thatvirginity is something that you have
(40:46):
to lose. Max is allowed todisplay traits of sensitivity and
inexperience. His virginityisn't played as a shameful thing.
It's not something he'sfighting to rid himself of like American
Pie. But it is so very 90s inthat virginity is something that
can do something, becausevirginity is a social construct,
(41:07):
and this idea of purity hasalways been something that has been
used to subjugate women. Oneof the things I really love about
this movie is the familialrelationships that are at the core
between a brother and a sisterteam. Except these brother and sister
Teams are 300 years apart.Thackery Binx couldn't save his sister
(41:27):
Emily, but Max can save Dani,and he sacrifices himself, or at
least attempts to, so Dannydoesn't suffer Emily's fate. And
it's a really sweet thing tosee, especially in a movie where
it's very clear that thisparticular brother and sister don't
always get on. Butfundamentally, Max loves his sister
and Danny loves Max. This wasalso the rare family move that featured
(41:52):
women front and center, aswell as women of different ages,
different body types, andwomen that could be all things menacing,
sexy and funny, but also thepower and loyalty of sisters and
the differences betweensisters. Their bond is unbreakable
even when Winifred is annoyedat Mary's idiocy or Sarah having
(42:14):
an affair with BillyButcherson. Sisters before Misters
Women don't need to beconstantly likable in our media,
but Mostly whether you're 30or 300, this is a movie about never
conforming and never fittingin. This is a movie about embracing
who you are. The strange, theweird, the queer, the flamboyant.
(42:36):
And if you're an evil witch,well, embrace that too. Thank you
for listening. As always, Iwould love to hear your thoughts
on Hocus Pocus. And thank youfor your continued support of this
podcast. If you want to helpthis podcast grow and reach more
people, you could leave arating or review wherever you found
this episode. You can retweetor like posts on social media. I
(42:58):
am Erbaldiorama where you canfollow me, you can like the posts
that I put out, you cancomment on posts as well and it all
helps with the visibility ofthis podcast. You can also tell your
friends and family about thispodcast and how to get this podcast.
The next episode of thispodcast. I actually mentioned him
a little bit earlier in thisepisode. Sam Raimi is well known
(43:20):
nowadays for being a legendaryhorror director, but back in the
early 1980s he was just asmall time indie horror director
who had to scrape togetherfunds and an inexperienced crew to
make his low budget secondfeature. That movie was in 1981 and
it was called the Evil Deadand it was a movie that basically
(43:43):
spawned Sam Raimi's career,spawned cult favorite Ash Williams,
and gave us the legendaryBruce Campbell along with some incredible
gory effects. I'm so excitedto be talking next episode about
the evil dead from 1981. Soplease join me next episode for the
history and legacy of the EvilDead. If you enjoy what I do for
(44:06):
this podcast and you want tosupport an indie podcaster who does
everything on her own, if youhave spare change you can financially
contribute to the upkeep ofthis podcast. You're under no obligation.
This podcast is free andalways will be and just by listening
to this podcast you are indeedsupporting this podcast. However,
if you do enjoy what I do, youget value out of what I do. There
(44:28):
are a couple of ways you canhelp if you have the means to. You
can make a one offdonation@verbaldiorama.com tips or
you can subscribe to thepatreon@verbaldiorama.com patreon
all money made goes back intothis podcast by paying for things
like software subscriptions,website hosting and new equipment.
(44:49):
Huge thank you to theincredible patrons of this podcast.
I literally could not do thiswithout their support. I'm so grateful
to them to Simon, Laurel,Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke, Michael,
Scott, Brendan, Ian, Lisa,Sam, Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas
so Kev, Heather, Danny, Stu,Brett, Philip M. Zenos, Sean, Rhino,
(45:12):
Philip K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle,Aaron, and Connor. If you want to
get in touch with me, you canemail verbaldioramail.com you can
say hi. You can give feedbackor suggestions. You can also go to
verbaldiorama.com and fill outthe contact form. I'd love to hear
from people. So if you have aquestion or a comment or you simply
(45:33):
want to talk about a recentepisode, please feel free to get
in touch. You can also messageme on social media as well if you
wish. I would genuinely loveto hear from you. So if you're listening
and you've always wanted toget in touch, I promise not to put
a spell on you because of allthe witches working I'm the best
and finally
(47:53):
Bye.
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