August 21, 2025 • 34 mins
Red Sonja is based on Red Sonja, which is, in turn, partially based on Red Sonya. The Red Sonya interpretation is credited as such for this movie, however it's actually based on Red Sonja, not Red Sonya. And during production, it was briefly called Red Sonia.
Confused? I'm not surprised.
So many Sonjas/Sonyas/Sonias. And what about Conan, I mean, Kalidor?
Sonja/Sonya's evolution from Robert E. Howard's historical 16th-century warrior to Roy Thomas and Barry Windsor-Smith's iconic Marvel Comics fantasy heroine, each brought something unique to the Red Sonja legacy.
Kalidor (definitely not Conan!) is in an interesting case study of Hollywood rights navigation, where creative solutions led to a character that channels the spirit of Conan while remaining legally distinct.
Red Sonja's innovative approach to special effects, and the decision to shoot everything in-camera created a distinctive visual style that prioritized practical filmmaking techniques over post-production polish.
While it has its flaws, Red Sonja represents an ambitious chapter in fantasy filmmaking that pushed boundaries and took creative risks, offering valuable insights into the evolution of the sword-and-sorcery genre and Hollywood's ongoing relationship with strong female protagonists.
I would love to hear your thoughts on Red Sonja (1985) !
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Episode Transcript
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(02:17):
Hi everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to Verbal Diorama, episode
309, Red Sonja. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't. And no man
may have me unless he's beatenme in fair fight. And that is true.
Welcome to Verbal Diorama.Whether you're a branbrand-newdnewlistener,whetheryou'rearegularreturninglistener,thank
(02:38):
you for being here. Thank youfor choosing to listen to this podcast.
I am so happy to have you herefor the history and legacy of Red
Sonja. And if you are aregular returning listener, thank
you for continuing to listento this podcast and coming back and
continuing to support thispodcast over the last six years and
over 300 episodes. Genuinelyblows my mind that people still keep
(03:00):
coming back to this podcast orthat I still keep putting episodes
out of this podcast. But itgenuinely means so much to have you
return. Even if you don'treturn for every episode. I'm really
glad that you return for someepisodes. So thank you so much. And
if this is your first time tothis podcast, you are so very welcome
and I hope you enjoy thisepisode on Red Sonja. Last episode
(03:24):
was Black Widow, a femaleMarvel Comics character who was long
overdue. Her own solo filmwithin the mcu and just how long
it actually took for Natashato finally get her dues, including
having to die and basicallygetting a prequel. Now, interestingly,
Red Sonja and Black Widowshare more than just a color in the
(03:46):
title. Red Sonja is also afemale Marvel Comics character. The
link between the two and thenhaving episodes right next to each
other is actually acoincidence because I didn't realize
that Sonja was a Marvelcharacter. To be honest, I just wanted
to do a month of femalefronted movies and I wanted to do
(04:07):
Black Widow and then I wantedto do Red Sonja. So that's the only
reason they are together. Butwhat a lovely coincidence. And while
Howard the Duck is oftencredited for being the first live
action Marvel movie, I thinkthere's a good argument here for
it actually being Red Sonja.Here's the trailer for Red Sonja.
(06:31):
After being attacked and leftthe dead, Sonja is gifted with the
mastery of the sword and seeksrevenge on the evil Queen Gedron.
Gedron has stolen thetalisman, a mysterious relic that
can only be touched by women,that has the power to destroy cities
with earthquakes and storms.After a priestess manages to survive
the ambush by Gedron and hersoldiers, she's mortally wounded
(06:54):
and is discovered by LordCaledor, who then asks him to find
her sister Sonja, the onlyperson with the power to defeat Gedron
and save this world. Let's runthrough the cast of this movie. We
have Arnold Schwarzenegger asLord Calidor, Brigitte Nielsen as
Red Sonja, Sandal Bergman asQueen Gedron, Paul Smith as Falcon,
(07:17):
Ernie Reyes Jr. As PrinceTahn, Ronald Lacey as Eichel, Pat
Roach as Britag, and JanetAgron as Varna. Red Sonja was written
by Clive exton and GeorgeMacDonald Fraser, was directed by
Richard Fleischer and wasbased on Red Sonja of Rugatino by
(07:38):
Robert E. Howard. But are wetalking about Red Sonja or Red Sonja?
And what's the difference?Well, Red Sonja is based on Red Sonja,
which was in turn partiallybased on Red Sonja. Two of those
Sonjas have a J in the name,the other has a Y. But they're all
(07:59):
sort of linked. Robert E.Howard's Red Sonja with a Y appears
in his 1934 short story theShadow of the Vulture, and she's
quite different. From thefantasy character most people know
today. The story is set in1529 during the siege of Vienna,
when the Ottoman Empire underSuleiman the Magnificent was advancing
(08:21):
into Europe. This ishistorical fiction, not fantasy.
There's no magic, monsters ormythical kingdoms. Red Sonja of Rogotino
is a Polish Russian warriorwoman fighting against the Turkish
invasion. She's described ashaving red hair and is skilled with
sword. She's portrayed asfierce, vengeful, and driven by hatred
(08:43):
for the Turks who destroyedher homeland. In the Shadow of the
Vulture, Sonja is allied withGottfried von Kalmbach, a German
mercenary. The plot involvestheir adventures during the siege,
including encounters withMikhail Oglu, a Turkish commander.
The story has Howard's typicalthemes of warfare, revenge, and cultural
conflict. Like much of hiswork, it's a pulp adventure story
(09:06):
with vivid action sequencesand dramatic characters. Howard was
known for his historicaladventure tales as much as his fantasy
work, such as Conan andSolomon Kane. Unlike Conan, Red Sonja
only appeared in this onepublished story during Howard's lifetime.
Although he may have writtenother unpublished stories, she remained
(09:28):
a relatively minor characterin his bibliography. So in that case,
how can she have a movieadaptation? The answer is Marvel
Comics. Roy Thomas and BarryWindsor Smith's Red Sonja with a
J debuted in Marvel's Conanthe Barbarian number 23 in February
1973 and was a significanttransformation of Howard's original
(09:51):
Sonja with a Y. Roy Thomas wasthe writer and Barry Windsor Smith
the artist. Winsor Smith wasalready an established artist on
the Conan comics, and Thomaswas known for his skill at adapting
and expanding pulp charactersfor comics. They made the character
from Howard's historical 16thcentury setting into the Hoborian
(10:12):
Age, the prehistoric fantasyworld of Conan. This allowed them
to incorporate magic, monstersand sword and sorcery elements that
weren't present in theoriginal story. The most notable
addition to Sonja's story washer vow of chastity, the idea that
Sonja had sworn never to liewith a man unless he defeated her
(10:32):
in fair combat. This becamecentral to her character mythology,
and it wasn't in Howard'soriginal. They also gave her the
iconic chainmail bikini thatbecame her signature look and influenced
all subsequent versions. Inher first appearances in the Conan
comics, she often appeared asan ally, rival, or romantic interest
for Conan. The storiestypically involved her on various
(10:55):
quests or adventures in theHyborian world, fighting sorcerers,
monsters, and tyrannicalrulers. She appeared in various Marvel
Comics series throughout the70s, but most notably in the Savage
Sword of Conan number 78 inJuly 1982 where a 21 year old Sonja
witnesses her family murdered,their house burned to the ground
(11:16):
by a group of mercenaries, andshe is sexually assaulted and left
for dead. She swears revengeand the red goddess Skathak appears
to her and gives herincredible fighting skills on the
condition she never lie with aman unless he defeats her in fair
combat. Sonja has more linksto Marvel too, specifically Mary
Jane Watson. Mary Jane wasoriginally created by Stan Lee and
(11:39):
Steve Ditko in 1965 and shewas kept as a mystery character.
Readers only saw her frombehind or partially obscured by objects
like plants. It wasn't untilthe Amazing Spider Man Number 42
in November 1965 that wefinally saw MJ designed and drawn
by John Romita Sr. With hervibrant red hair and the iconic Face
(12:01):
It Tiger, you just hit thejackpot line. Why am I mentioning
Mary Jane Watson? Well, inMarvel team up number 79 in March
1979, Mary Jane Watson becomesRed Sonja. The issue, written by
Chris Claremont with art byJohn Byrne has Mary Jane transforming
to Red Sonja, taking on herappearance skills and warrior abilities,
(12:24):
complete with chainmailbikini. MJ is said to be a descendant
or reincarnation of Red Sonja.In 2007, MJ would once again become
Red Sonja in the 2007 Marveland Dynamite comic 5 issue series
Red Sonja written by MichaelAvon oming, but this movie clearly
(12:47):
states it's based on Robert E.Howard's version of Red Sonja with
a Y and not the Marvel Comicsversion, despite it actually being
based on the plot andcharacterization of Red Sonja with
a J and being called Red Sonjawith a J. And the easiest explanation
for this is Royce. It's not anadaptation of Robert E. Howard's
(13:09):
historical fiction version ofRed Sonja of Rigatino, but the movie
credits Robert E. Howardbecause legally and creatively, his
original Red Sonja characterwas the foundational source. Even
though the film is actuallyadapting the Marvel Comics version,
Marvel's Red Sonja wasdirectly inspired by Howard's Red
Sonja. So when adapting theMarvel character for film, the producers
(13:33):
still needed to acknowledgeHoward as the original creator. Even
though Marvel had developedtheir own distinct version with different
stories, setting andcharacteristics. The core character
concept is traced back toHoward's 1934 creation. So the movie
is simultaneously based onHoward's character, but is actually
adapting Marvel's version andset in a fantasy world like Marvel's
(13:57):
version, not Howard'shistorical setting, while also using
the Sonja with A J Spellingfrom Marvel, not Howard's Sonja with
a Y. It's kind of similar tohow superhero movies credit the original
comic creators like Stan Lee,Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, even
when they're adapting morerecent storylines or interpretations
(14:18):
from writers like ChrisClaremont, Ed Brubaker or Brian Michael
Bendis. But it also feelssomewhat wrong in this capacity.
But who am I to judge? So withit being officially an adaptation
of the Robert E. Howardcharacter Red Sonja of Rugatino,
it was announced by dailyvariety in 1983 to be being made
into a film adaptationproduced by Dino De Laurentiis, with
(14:42):
Ralph Bakshi directing.Interestingly, at an open casting
call for the movie, it wasspelled Red Sonja S o n I A. The
movie was scheduled to beginfilming in summer 1983. However,
by April 1984 the movie wasbeing called Red Sonja S o n Y A
(15:03):
and it was reported principalphotography would begin in September
1984 at Sinosita Studios inItaly. And in July 1984, Richard
Fleisher was announced asreplacing Ralph Bakshi as director.
Also in July 1984, SandelBergman was announced as being offered
the lead role of Red Sonja,now spelled S o n J A. Bergman had
(15:27):
starred in Conan the Barbarianers Conan's love interest Valeria,
but she would end up refusingthe role of Sonja and instead would
be cast as Queen Gedron. Theyoung and the restless actor Eileen
Davidson auditioned for therole of Sonja and the film was scheduled
to film in Italy for 16 weeks.But Eileen Davidson wasn't successful
(15:48):
at getting the part and theproduction still didn't have its
Sonja. Producer Dino DeLaurentiis would spend a year in
total looking for someonestatuesque and Amazonian, and he
was still looking for a Sonja.Eight weeks before shooting was scheduled
to start, he saw modelBrigitte Nielsen on the COVID of
a fashion magazine andimmediately set about trying to find
(16:11):
her. Nielsen was in Milan fora modeling job and De Laurentiis
flew her to Rome for a screentest, which she passed and the production
had its red headed heroine.But then there's another question
about this movie. What isConan in this movie and why isn't
he called Conan? Well, ArnoldSchwarzenegger broke through into
(16:32):
Hollywood with his role in the1982 Sword and sorcery film Conan
the Barbarian, which was a boxoffice hit and immediately a sequel
was commissioned, Conan thedestroyer. In 1984, Conan was also
a Robert E. Howard character.The planned third Conan film, Conan
the Conqueror, fell intoDevelopment hell in the late 80s.
(16:54):
It would eventually form thebasis of the 1997 fantasy film Cull
the Conqueror. Meanwhile,Schwarzenegger was becoming a household
name thanks to James Cameron's1984 sci fi horror slasher the Terminator.
Arnold Schwarzeneggerinitially agreed to appear in Red
Sonja as a favor to Dino DeLaurentiis, who had basically given
(17:15):
him his big break in Conan andwith whom he'd signed a multi picture
deal. But the situation becamemuch more complicated than originally
planned. Allegedly, Dino DeLaurentiis didn't have the budget
to pay Schwarzenegger for afull shooting schedule. So he came
up with a workaround. He'dmake a pseudo Conan spin off movie
(17:36):
Red Sonja to fulfilcontractual obligations without the
full expense. And he'd getSchwarzenegger to cameo in the movie.
It makes sense because theaudience loved him in Conan, so why
not have him show up here too?Except they couldn't use the name
Conan because they didn't havethe rights to the name. So they renamed
the character Lord Caledor. Anunofficial explanation endorsed by
(18:00):
fans is that Calidor is one ofConan's traveling names, like when
Gandalf is known as Mithrandirduring his various travels through
Middle Earth. The problem was,while Schwarzenegger agreed to a
cameo quietly, the role wasbeing beefed up. And when he arrived
on set, he ended up filmingfor four weeks. After watching a
rough cut of the movie, herealized that his role had been expanded
(18:24):
to full blown co star thanksto crafty angles and multiple cameras.
Schwarzenegger also performedall of his own stunts. Considering
his status at the time as anup and coming leading man with also
commitments to other movieslike Commando. Schwarzenegger didn't
really have the time to bedeceived by Dino De Laurentiis. Not
(18:45):
that he had a bad experiencefilming. Schwarzenegger and Nielsen
actually started an affairduring filming, something which both
have since confirmed. And atthe time, Schwarzenegger was in a
relationship with his futureex wife, Maria Shriver. The costume
designer on Red Sonja isDanilo Donati. He's also the production
designer too. A lot of peopledid double or triple shifts on this
(19:09):
movie. He was last mentionedin the episode on Flash Gordon, which
had sumptuous costuming.That's episode 296 of this podcast.
Gone is the chainmail bikinifrom the comic book. Also on the
crew, the legendary EnnioMorricone composing the score. The
special effects have actuallyaged quite well with some beautiful
matte paintings and the dragonbridge, all playing a part to build
(19:32):
the world of Hyboria. There'seven a charm to the mechanical water
snake monster, which iscredited as Killing Machine. The
fish machine and spiderdesigners and builders were Colin
Arthur and Giuseppe Tutora.Many of the crew had also worked
on the Conan movies, includingthe director. Also working on this
movie was Ernie Reyes Sr. Asthe martial arts consultant who also
(19:54):
worked on the Last Dragon, andalso with his young son Ernie Reyes
Jr. Who stars here as PrinceTahn. Soon after finishing Red Sonja,
Schwarzenegger felt hisrelationship with Dino De Laurentiis
was soured by his deceptionand decided to terminate, no pun
intended, his 10 year contractafter the 1986 movie Raw Deal. Schwarzenegger's
(20:17):
success would be cemented thefollowing year by Predator, which
is episode 267 of thispodcast. Red Sonja was filmed on
location across Italy inCelano in Rome at the stabilimenti
cinematography C.I. pontiniand the Aboruzzi Mountains. Production
wrapped a day and a half lateron 21st December 1984, 59 days after
(20:40):
it commenced rather than 58days. The delay was blamed on torrential
rains in the Abritsi Mountainsduring October 1984. Post production
moved from Italy to MGMstudios in Culver City, California,
where Dino De Laurentiisoversaw the progress on this movie.
Personally, this is perfectopportunity to segue into the obligatory
(21:02):
Keanu reference of thisepisode. And if you don't know what
that is, it's where I try andlink every movie that I feature to
with Keanu Reeves for noreason other than he is the best
of men. And I did actuallyhave a different obligatory Keanu
reference. And what that waswas I wanted to link this movie somehow
to 47 Ronin, which isobviously Keanu using swords. And
(21:23):
then something else came to meand I thought this one way better.
And it's via Tad Horino whoplayed the sword master in this movie.
Now he's no stranger toHollywood movies, but his best role
was undoubtedly that ofConfucius in Bill and Ted's bogus
journey with Alex Winter andof course Keanu Reeves. And that
(21:46):
is the easiest way to linkKeanu Reeves to Red Sonja. Red Sonja
was released on 5th July 1985,the same week as Back to the Future,
which clearly didn't help itgain any type of stronghold with
viewers. Also out at aroundthe same time, Rambo First Blood,
Part 2, Cocoon sent Elmo'sFire and the Goonies, all of which
(22:09):
did better than Red Sonja onits debut, Red Sonja could only manage
debuting 9th at the US boxoffice and it dropped to 13th in
its second week. It would endup grossing $6.9 million at the domestic
box office on its $17.9million budget. No international
financial information isavailable. However, I distinctly
(22:32):
remember watching this severaltimes as a kid, so it must have had
a UK VHS release. IPPO BoxOffice was blamed on the over saturation
of sword and sorcery movies,the rushed production, the female
lead and villain, and itsspurious links to Conan without actually
starring Conan, which to behonest, probably just ended up confusing
(22:52):
people. Unsurprisingly,critics also gave this movie a hard
time. It has a 21% on rottentomatoes, citing dull, poorly directed
and badly miscast. Red Sonjais an uninspired conclusion to Schwarzenegger's
barbarian trilogy, which alsoit kind of isn't. But again, I think
that's the problem with thismovie. Even Schwarzenegger jokes
(23:16):
that it's the worst film he'sever made, saying quote, now I tell
my kids that if they get outof line, they'll be forced to watch
Red Sonja 10 times in a row.It must be working because I've never
had much trouble with any ofthem. Red Sonja, though, was nominated
for three awards. They werejust Golden Raspberry Awards Worst
(23:38):
Actress and Worst New Star forBrigitte Nielsen and Worst Supporting
Actress for Sandal Bergmann.Nielsen won in the Worst New Star
category and that was sharedfor her performance in Rocky iv.
Now, despite Red Sonja'scritical and commercial bashing,
it's become somewhat of a cultclassic over the years, and a remake
(23:59):
has been on the cards for asurprisingly long time. It started
with Robert Rodriguez in 2008wanting to do a remake starring Rose
McGowan as the titlecharacter. By 2010, Con Air and Lara
Croft Tomb Raider directorSimon west was slated to direct a
remake starring amber heard.In 2011, Conan the Barbarian was
(24:21):
rebooted with Jason Momoa inthe lead, and so it made sense to
also reboot Red Sonja, but theproject halted, got stuck in development
hell for several years until2017 when a new version was reported
to be in the early stages bynew rights holders Millennium Films,
this time with Bryan Singerthe first choice director. He was
(24:41):
hired in 2018 and then firedafter his sexual abuse allegations
came to light. A new version,written and directed by Joey Soloway
was announced before again,nothing happening. Another version
in 2021 was being written byTasha Howe and directed by Soloway
with Hannah John Carman linedup to star, but by March 2022 John
(25:03):
Carman and Soloway had leftthe production, with MJ Bassett now
the new writer director. InAugust 2022, Millennium confirmed
production of the new RedSonja had begun in Bulgaria with
Italian actor Matilda Lutzcast as Sonja, with the character
based on the DynamicEntertainment version of the character
(25:23):
where the original Marvelcomic Sonya was killed and replaced
by Dynamite's reincarnation.And this new version, which apparently
does contain much morechainmail bikini as of making this
episode is not yet out, but bythe time this episode is out the
new Red Sonja will have comeout as it's due to be released in
(25:45):
the US on 13 August 2025,apparently for one day only. It's
a bold strategy, Cotton. Let'ssee if it pays off for them. It then
goes to Video on Demand in theUS on 29 August, but it won't be
out in the UK till later thisyear. But back to this red Sonja
because this was a movie Iremember watching a lot as a kid.
(26:08):
So yes, nostalgia goggles arefirmly on for this one. But while
I'll never say it's a goodmovie or even an okay movie, there
are parts of it that I reallylike. The visual effects still look
really good, I have it on bluray and the matte paintings might
be obvious, but they're alsoreally well done. I adore the production
design. In some areas the roomfilled with candles. I have no idea
(26:31):
how many health and safetyassessments they had to write up
to get that done, but probablynone because this was the 80s. But
it's so pretty. The setssometimes look a bit like cardboard,
but other times they lookreally impressive. This is a movie
that thrives being filmed onlocation, and I especially love the
extended fight scene betweenSonya and Caledor, which shows they're
(26:52):
not only impressiveswordspeople but also equals in every
respect. Neither is given muchif any character development. So
I like this. I also like thatTarn and Falcon are so bored after
a while because it's beengoing on so long. The sword choreography
is no Princess Bride, but it'sfine. You can tell Brigitte Nielsen
isn't doing most of her ownstunts, but you can tell Schwarzenegger
(27:14):
is. And honestly, I'm finewith Sonja being a bit bland and
uninteresting at times. Whatalways struck me, even as a child
was this being a live actionfantasy movie with a female hero
and a female villain. Thatseemed so unique to me. At the time,
and while as a child, I didn'treally understand the reasons why
Gedron hated Sonja so much.The queerness of the character is
(27:38):
so blatant. I wonder if thiswas also a reason that this movie
failed. Not only do we have anopenly gay villain, but rather than
just a closeted or queer codedvillain, but also a villain who uses
her sexuality to oppressothers, Sonja refuses her advances,
so Sonia is punished. It's notreally the best depiction of a lesbian
(27:59):
character canonically. Recentdepictions of Sonja are that she
is explicitly bisexual andpolyamorous, but back in the 80s
she wasn't canonicallybisexual and polyamorous. And this
is undoubtedly the mostproblematic aspect of this movie
because it aligns beinghomosexual with being dark, evil
and basically going aroundkilling innocent men, women and children
(28:22):
with your new glowing greenorb that only women can touch, while
also ordering the rape of thewoman who declined your advances
and murdering her entirefamily, save for a sister at the
temple who happens to escapebut still is eventually killed by
your soldiers. It's not thebest representation, but again, this
was the 80s and nowadays wedemand more from our queer representation.
(28:44):
As for Sonja herself, BrigitteNielsen does the best with a terrible
script where Sonja issimultaneously the strongest person
and also has to consistentlybe saved. She is determined, wise,
brave and strong. She hasconstant awareness of the men around
her. And no, women don't needto like men better, men need to be
(29:06):
better. And to be honest, theexperiences Sonja has had so far
fully support her wariness ofmen. Clearly she trusts her grandmaster,
but this is a full on revengestory and Kalidor is literally just
stalking a woman in the vainhope he can save her. And of course,
according to this story, hedoes. Several times. I want to go
(29:27):
back to the Rotten TomatoesSummary. Dull, poorly directed and
badly miscast, Red Sonja is anuninspired conclusion to Schwarzenegger's
Barbarian trilogy. Except it'snot. And that's the point. It's both
an adaptation of a comic bookand also not. It's a sequel slash
spin off to Conan. And it'salso not. It's Sonja with a Y and
(29:50):
Sonja with a J. It doesn'treally know what it is or what it
wants to be, but it's also notthe absolute disaster people make
it out to be. It's not as darkas Conan the Barbarian or as light
as Conan the Destroyer, and itcould have been a trailblazer had
it actually known how to writea woman as more than just a stereotype.
(30:12):
But yes, I think it's abouttime. We credit Red Sonja as the
first live action Marvelmovie, but maybe Sonja with an I
next time. Thank you forlistening. As always, I would love
to hear your thoughts on RedSonja. And as always, thank you for
your continued support of thispodcast. If you want to get involved
(30:33):
and help this podcast grow andreach more people, that would be
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(30:56):
a big help in getting otherpeople to know what this podcast
is and hopefully want to comealong for the ride. So I mentioned
I'm doing specifically femalefronted movies and what is the biggest
female fronted movie of recentyears? Well is the subject of the
next episode is what it is andall I'm going to simply say is she's
(31:19):
everything. He's just Ken. Soplease join me next week for the
History and Legacy of Barbie.Now if you enjoy what I do for this
podcast or you simply want tosupport an indie podcaster who does
literally everything herself,if you have some spare change you
can financially contribute tothe future and the upkeep of this
(31:41):
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(32:01):
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If you want to get in touchwith me, you can email verbal diorama@gmail.com.
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You can also pop over toverbal diorama.com you can find all
(32:47):
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(33:52):
Bye.
Hi everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to Verbal Diorama, episode
309, Red Sonja. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't. And no man
may have me unless he's beatenme in fair fight. And that is true.
Welcome to Verbal Diorama.Whether you're a branbrand-newdnewlistener,whetheryou'rearegularreturninglistener,thank
(02:38):
you for being here. Thank youfor choosing to listen to this podcast.
I am so happy to have you herefor the history and legacy of Red
Sonja. And if you are aregular returning listener, thank
you for continuing to listento this podcast and coming back and
continuing to support thispodcast over the last six years and
over 300 episodes. Genuinelyblows my mind that people still keep
(03:00):
coming back to this podcast orthat I still keep putting episodes
out of this podcast. But itgenuinely means so much to have you
return. Even if you don'treturn for every episode. I'm really
glad that you return for someepisodes. So thank you so much. And
if this is your first time tothis podcast, you are so very welcome
and I hope you enjoy thisepisode on Red Sonja. Last episode
(03:24):
was Black Widow, a femaleMarvel Comics character who was long
overdue. Her own solo filmwithin the mcu and just how long
it actually took for Natashato finally get her dues, including
having to die and basicallygetting a prequel. Now, interestingly,
Red Sonja and Black Widowshare more than just a color in the
(03:46):
title. Red Sonja is also afemale Marvel Comics character. The
link between the two and thenhaving episodes right next to each
other is actually acoincidence because I didn't realize
that Sonja was a Marvelcharacter. To be honest, I just wanted
to do a month of femalefronted movies and I wanted to do
(04:07):
Black Widow and then I wantedto do Red Sonja. So that's the only
reason they are together. Butwhat a lovely coincidence. And while
Howard the Duck is oftencredited for being the first live
action Marvel movie, I thinkthere's a good argument here for
it actually being Red Sonja.Here's the trailer for Red Sonja.
(06:31):
After being attacked and leftthe dead, Sonja is gifted with the
mastery of the sword and seeksrevenge on the evil Queen Gedron.
Gedron has stolen thetalisman, a mysterious relic that
can only be touched by women,that has the power to destroy cities
with earthquakes and storms.After a priestess manages to survive
the ambush by Gedron and hersoldiers, she's mortally wounded
(06:54):
and is discovered by LordCaledor, who then asks him to find
her sister Sonja, the onlyperson with the power to defeat Gedron
and save this world. Let's runthrough the cast of this movie. We
have Arnold Schwarzenegger asLord Calidor, Brigitte Nielsen as
Red Sonja, Sandal Bergman asQueen Gedron, Paul Smith as Falcon,
(07:17):
Ernie Reyes Jr. As PrinceTahn, Ronald Lacey as Eichel, Pat
Roach as Britag, and JanetAgron as Varna. Red Sonja was written
by Clive exton and GeorgeMacDonald Fraser, was directed by
Richard Fleischer and wasbased on Red Sonja of Rugatino by
(07:38):
Robert E. Howard. But are wetalking about Red Sonja or Red Sonja?
And what's the difference?Well, Red Sonja is based on Red Sonja,
which was in turn partiallybased on Red Sonja. Two of those
Sonjas have a J in the name,the other has a Y. But they're all
(07:59):
sort of linked. Robert E.Howard's Red Sonja with a Y appears
in his 1934 short story theShadow of the Vulture, and she's
quite different. From thefantasy character most people know
today. The story is set in1529 during the siege of Vienna,
when the Ottoman Empire underSuleiman the Magnificent was advancing
(08:21):
into Europe. This ishistorical fiction, not fantasy.
There's no magic, monsters ormythical kingdoms. Red Sonja of Rogotino
is a Polish Russian warriorwoman fighting against the Turkish
invasion. She's described ashaving red hair and is skilled with
sword. She's portrayed asfierce, vengeful, and driven by hatred
(08:43):
for the Turks who destroyedher homeland. In the Shadow of the
Vulture, Sonja is allied withGottfried von Kalmbach, a German
mercenary. The plot involvestheir adventures during the siege,
including encounters withMikhail Oglu, a Turkish commander.
The story has Howard's typicalthemes of warfare, revenge, and cultural
conflict. Like much of hiswork, it's a pulp adventure story
(09:06):
with vivid action sequencesand dramatic characters. Howard was
known for his historicaladventure tales as much as his fantasy
work, such as Conan andSolomon Kane. Unlike Conan, Red Sonja
only appeared in this onepublished story during Howard's lifetime.
Although he may have writtenother unpublished stories, she remained
(09:28):
a relatively minor characterin his bibliography. So in that case,
how can she have a movieadaptation? The answer is Marvel
Comics. Roy Thomas and BarryWindsor Smith's Red Sonja with a
J debuted in Marvel's Conanthe Barbarian number 23 in February
1973 and was a significanttransformation of Howard's original
(09:51):
Sonja with a Y. Roy Thomas wasthe writer and Barry Windsor Smith
the artist. Winsor Smith wasalready an established artist on
the Conan comics, and Thomaswas known for his skill at adapting
and expanding pulp charactersfor comics. They made the character
from Howard's historical 16thcentury setting into the Hoborian
(10:12):
Age, the prehistoric fantasyworld of Conan. This allowed them
to incorporate magic, monstersand sword and sorcery elements that
weren't present in theoriginal story. The most notable
addition to Sonja's story washer vow of chastity, the idea that
Sonja had sworn never to liewith a man unless he defeated her
(10:32):
in fair combat. This becamecentral to her character mythology,
and it wasn't in Howard'soriginal. They also gave her the
iconic chainmail bikini thatbecame her signature look and influenced
all subsequent versions. Inher first appearances in the Conan
comics, she often appeared asan ally, rival, or romantic interest
for Conan. The storiestypically involved her on various
(10:55):
quests or adventures in theHyborian world, fighting sorcerers,
monsters, and tyrannicalrulers. She appeared in various Marvel
Comics series throughout the70s, but most notably in the Savage
Sword of Conan number 78 inJuly 1982 where a 21 year old Sonja
witnesses her family murdered,their house burned to the ground
(11:16):
by a group of mercenaries, andshe is sexually assaulted and left
for dead. She swears revengeand the red goddess Skathak appears
to her and gives herincredible fighting skills on the
condition she never lie with aman unless he defeats her in fair
combat. Sonja has more linksto Marvel too, specifically Mary
Jane Watson. Mary Jane wasoriginally created by Stan Lee and
(11:39):
Steve Ditko in 1965 and shewas kept as a mystery character.
Readers only saw her frombehind or partially obscured by objects
like plants. It wasn't untilthe Amazing Spider Man Number 42
in November 1965 that wefinally saw MJ designed and drawn
by John Romita Sr. With hervibrant red hair and the iconic Face
(12:01):
It Tiger, you just hit thejackpot line. Why am I mentioning
Mary Jane Watson? Well, inMarvel team up number 79 in March
1979, Mary Jane Watson becomesRed Sonja. The issue, written by
Chris Claremont with art byJohn Byrne has Mary Jane transforming
to Red Sonja, taking on herappearance skills and warrior abilities,
(12:24):
complete with chainmailbikini. MJ is said to be a descendant
or reincarnation of Red Sonja.In 2007, MJ would once again become
Red Sonja in the 2007 Marveland Dynamite comic 5 issue series
Red Sonja written by MichaelAvon oming, but this movie clearly
(12:47):
states it's based on Robert E.Howard's version of Red Sonja with
a Y and not the Marvel Comicsversion, despite it actually being
based on the plot andcharacterization of Red Sonja with
a J and being called Red Sonjawith a J. And the easiest explanation
for this is Royce. It's not anadaptation of Robert E. Howard's
(13:09):
historical fiction version ofRed Sonja of Rigatino, but the movie
credits Robert E. Howardbecause legally and creatively, his
original Red Sonja characterwas the foundational source. Even
though the film is actuallyadapting the Marvel Comics version,
Marvel's Red Sonja wasdirectly inspired by Howard's Red
Sonja. So when adapting theMarvel character for film, the producers
(13:33):
still needed to acknowledgeHoward as the original creator. Even
though Marvel had developedtheir own distinct version with different
stories, setting andcharacteristics. The core character
concept is traced back toHoward's 1934 creation. So the movie
is simultaneously based onHoward's character, but is actually
adapting Marvel's version andset in a fantasy world like Marvel's
(13:57):
version, not Howard'shistorical setting, while also using
the Sonja with A J Spellingfrom Marvel, not Howard's Sonja with
a Y. It's kind of similar tohow superhero movies credit the original
comic creators like Stan Lee,Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, even
when they're adapting morerecent storylines or interpretations
(14:18):
from writers like ChrisClaremont, Ed Brubaker or Brian Michael
Bendis. But it also feelssomewhat wrong in this capacity.
But who am I to judge? So withit being officially an adaptation
of the Robert E. Howardcharacter Red Sonja of Rugatino,
it was announced by dailyvariety in 1983 to be being made
into a film adaptationproduced by Dino De Laurentiis, with
(14:42):
Ralph Bakshi directing.Interestingly, at an open casting
call for the movie, it wasspelled Red Sonja S o n I A. The
movie was scheduled to beginfilming in summer 1983. However,
by April 1984 the movie wasbeing called Red Sonja S o n Y A
(15:03):
and it was reported principalphotography would begin in September
1984 at Sinosita Studios inItaly. And in July 1984, Richard
Fleisher was announced asreplacing Ralph Bakshi as director.
Also in July 1984, SandelBergman was announced as being offered
the lead role of Red Sonja,now spelled S o n J A. Bergman had
(15:27):
starred in Conan the Barbarianers Conan's love interest Valeria,
but she would end up refusingthe role of Sonja and instead would
be cast as Queen Gedron. Theyoung and the restless actor Eileen
Davidson auditioned for therole of Sonja and the film was scheduled
to film in Italy for 16 weeks.But Eileen Davidson wasn't successful
(15:48):
at getting the part and theproduction still didn't have its
Sonja. Producer Dino DeLaurentiis would spend a year in
total looking for someonestatuesque and Amazonian, and he
was still looking for a Sonja.Eight weeks before shooting was scheduled
to start, he saw modelBrigitte Nielsen on the COVID of
a fashion magazine andimmediately set about trying to find
(16:11):
her. Nielsen was in Milan fora modeling job and De Laurentiis
flew her to Rome for a screentest, which she passed and the production
had its red headed heroine.But then there's another question
about this movie. What isConan in this movie and why isn't
he called Conan? Well, ArnoldSchwarzenegger broke through into
(16:32):
Hollywood with his role in the1982 Sword and sorcery film Conan
the Barbarian, which was a boxoffice hit and immediately a sequel
was commissioned, Conan thedestroyer. In 1984, Conan was also
a Robert E. Howard character.The planned third Conan film, Conan
the Conqueror, fell intoDevelopment hell in the late 80s.
(16:54):
It would eventually form thebasis of the 1997 fantasy film Cull
the Conqueror. Meanwhile,Schwarzenegger was becoming a household
name thanks to James Cameron's1984 sci fi horror slasher the Terminator.
Arnold Schwarzeneggerinitially agreed to appear in Red
Sonja as a favor to Dino DeLaurentiis, who had basically given
(17:15):
him his big break in Conan andwith whom he'd signed a multi picture
deal. But the situation becamemuch more complicated than originally
planned. Allegedly, Dino DeLaurentiis didn't have the budget
to pay Schwarzenegger for afull shooting schedule. So he came
up with a workaround. He'dmake a pseudo Conan spin off movie
(17:36):
Red Sonja to fulfilcontractual obligations without the
full expense. And he'd getSchwarzenegger to cameo in the movie.
It makes sense because theaudience loved him in Conan, so why
not have him show up here too?Except they couldn't use the name
Conan because they didn't havethe rights to the name. So they renamed
the character Lord Caledor. Anunofficial explanation endorsed by
(18:00):
fans is that Calidor is one ofConan's traveling names, like when
Gandalf is known as Mithrandirduring his various travels through
Middle Earth. The problem was,while Schwarzenegger agreed to a
cameo quietly, the role wasbeing beefed up. And when he arrived
on set, he ended up filmingfor four weeks. After watching a
rough cut of the movie, herealized that his role had been expanded
(18:24):
to full blown co star thanksto crafty angles and multiple cameras.
Schwarzenegger also performedall of his own stunts. Considering
his status at the time as anup and coming leading man with also
commitments to other movieslike Commando. Schwarzenegger didn't
really have the time to bedeceived by Dino De Laurentiis. Not
(18:45):
that he had a bad experiencefilming. Schwarzenegger and Nielsen
actually started an affairduring filming, something which both
have since confirmed. And atthe time, Schwarzenegger was in a
relationship with his futureex wife, Maria Shriver. The costume
designer on Red Sonja isDanilo Donati. He's also the production
designer too. A lot of peopledid double or triple shifts on this
(19:09):
movie. He was last mentionedin the episode on Flash Gordon, which
had sumptuous costuming.That's episode 296 of this podcast.
Gone is the chainmail bikinifrom the comic book. Also on the
crew, the legendary EnnioMorricone composing the score. The
special effects have actuallyaged quite well with some beautiful
matte paintings and the dragonbridge, all playing a part to build
(19:32):
the world of Hyboria. There'seven a charm to the mechanical water
snake monster, which iscredited as Killing Machine. The
fish machine and spiderdesigners and builders were Colin
Arthur and Giuseppe Tutora.Many of the crew had also worked
on the Conan movies, includingthe director. Also working on this
movie was Ernie Reyes Sr. Asthe martial arts consultant who also
(19:54):
worked on the Last Dragon, andalso with his young son Ernie Reyes
Jr. Who stars here as PrinceTahn. Soon after finishing Red Sonja,
Schwarzenegger felt hisrelationship with Dino De Laurentiis
was soured by his deceptionand decided to terminate, no pun
intended, his 10 year contractafter the 1986 movie Raw Deal. Schwarzenegger's
(20:17):
success would be cemented thefollowing year by Predator, which
is episode 267 of thispodcast. Red Sonja was filmed on
location across Italy inCelano in Rome at the stabilimenti
cinematography C.I. pontiniand the Aboruzzi Mountains. Production
wrapped a day and a half lateron 21st December 1984, 59 days after
(20:40):
it commenced rather than 58days. The delay was blamed on torrential
rains in the Abritsi Mountainsduring October 1984. Post production
moved from Italy to MGMstudios in Culver City, California,
where Dino De Laurentiisoversaw the progress on this movie.
Personally, this is perfectopportunity to segue into the obligatory
(21:02):
Keanu reference of thisepisode. And if you don't know what
that is, it's where I try andlink every movie that I feature to
with Keanu Reeves for noreason other than he is the best
of men. And I did actuallyhave a different obligatory Keanu
reference. And what that waswas I wanted to link this movie somehow
to 47 Ronin, which isobviously Keanu using swords. And
(21:23):
then something else came to meand I thought this one way better.
And it's via Tad Horino whoplayed the sword master in this movie.
Now he's no stranger toHollywood movies, but his best role
was undoubtedly that ofConfucius in Bill and Ted's bogus
journey with Alex Winter andof course Keanu Reeves. And that
(21:46):
is the easiest way to linkKeanu Reeves to Red Sonja. Red Sonja
was released on 5th July 1985,the same week as Back to the Future,
which clearly didn't help itgain any type of stronghold with
viewers. Also out at aroundthe same time, Rambo First Blood,
Part 2, Cocoon sent Elmo'sFire and the Goonies, all of which
(22:09):
did better than Red Sonja onits debut, Red Sonja could only manage
debuting 9th at the US boxoffice and it dropped to 13th in
its second week. It would endup grossing $6.9 million at the domestic
box office on its $17.9million budget. No international
financial information isavailable. However, I distinctly
(22:32):
remember watching this severaltimes as a kid, so it must have had
a UK VHS release. IPPO BoxOffice was blamed on the over saturation
of sword and sorcery movies,the rushed production, the female
lead and villain, and itsspurious links to Conan without actually
starring Conan, which to behonest, probably just ended up confusing
(22:52):
people. Unsurprisingly,critics also gave this movie a hard
time. It has a 21% on rottentomatoes, citing dull, poorly directed
and badly miscast. Red Sonjais an uninspired conclusion to Schwarzenegger's
barbarian trilogy, which alsoit kind of isn't. But again, I think
that's the problem with thismovie. Even Schwarzenegger jokes
(23:16):
that it's the worst film he'sever made, saying quote, now I tell
my kids that if they get outof line, they'll be forced to watch
Red Sonja 10 times in a row.It must be working because I've never
had much trouble with any ofthem. Red Sonja, though, was nominated
for three awards. They werejust Golden Raspberry Awards Worst
(23:38):
Actress and Worst New Star forBrigitte Nielsen and Worst Supporting
Actress for Sandal Bergmann.Nielsen won in the Worst New Star
category and that was sharedfor her performance in Rocky iv.
Now, despite Red Sonja'scritical and commercial bashing,
it's become somewhat of a cultclassic over the years, and a remake
(23:59):
has been on the cards for asurprisingly long time. It started
with Robert Rodriguez in 2008wanting to do a remake starring Rose
McGowan as the titlecharacter. By 2010, Con Air and Lara
Croft Tomb Raider directorSimon west was slated to direct a
remake starring amber heard.In 2011, Conan the Barbarian was
(24:21):
rebooted with Jason Momoa inthe lead, and so it made sense to
also reboot Red Sonja, but theproject halted, got stuck in development
hell for several years until2017 when a new version was reported
to be in the early stages bynew rights holders Millennium Films,
this time with Bryan Singerthe first choice director. He was
(24:41):
hired in 2018 and then firedafter his sexual abuse allegations
came to light. A new version,written and directed by Joey Soloway
was announced before again,nothing happening. Another version
in 2021 was being written byTasha Howe and directed by Soloway
with Hannah John Carman linedup to star, but by March 2022 John
(25:03):
Carman and Soloway had leftthe production, with MJ Bassett now
the new writer director. InAugust 2022, Millennium confirmed
production of the new RedSonja had begun in Bulgaria with
Italian actor Matilda Lutzcast as Sonja, with the character
based on the DynamicEntertainment version of the character
(25:23):
where the original Marvelcomic Sonya was killed and replaced
by Dynamite's reincarnation.And this new version, which apparently
does contain much morechainmail bikini as of making this
episode is not yet out, but bythe time this episode is out the
new Red Sonja will have comeout as it's due to be released in
(25:45):
the US on 13 August 2025,apparently for one day only. It's
a bold strategy, Cotton. Let'ssee if it pays off for them. It then
goes to Video on Demand in theUS on 29 August, but it won't be
out in the UK till later thisyear. But back to this red Sonja
because this was a movie Iremember watching a lot as a kid.
(26:08):
So yes, nostalgia goggles arefirmly on for this one. But while
I'll never say it's a goodmovie or even an okay movie, there
are parts of it that I reallylike. The visual effects still look
really good, I have it on bluray and the matte paintings might
be obvious, but they're alsoreally well done. I adore the production
design. In some areas the roomfilled with candles. I have no idea
(26:31):
how many health and safetyassessments they had to write up
to get that done, but probablynone because this was the 80s. But
it's so pretty. The setssometimes look a bit like cardboard,
but other times they lookreally impressive. This is a movie
that thrives being filmed onlocation, and I especially love the
extended fight scene betweenSonya and Caledor, which shows they're
(26:52):
not only impressiveswordspeople but also equals in every
respect. Neither is given muchif any character development. So
I like this. I also like thatTarn and Falcon are so bored after
a while because it's beengoing on so long. The sword choreography
is no Princess Bride, but it'sfine. You can tell Brigitte Nielsen
isn't doing most of her ownstunts, but you can tell Schwarzenegger
(27:14):
is. And honestly, I'm finewith Sonja being a bit bland and
uninteresting at times. Whatalways struck me, even as a child
was this being a live actionfantasy movie with a female hero
and a female villain. Thatseemed so unique to me. At the time,
and while as a child, I didn'treally understand the reasons why
Gedron hated Sonja so much.The queerness of the character is
(27:38):
so blatant. I wonder if thiswas also a reason that this movie
failed. Not only do we have anopenly gay villain, but rather than
just a closeted or queer codedvillain, but also a villain who uses
her sexuality to oppressothers, Sonja refuses her advances,
so Sonia is punished. It's notreally the best depiction of a lesbian
(27:59):
character canonically. Recentdepictions of Sonja are that she
is explicitly bisexual andpolyamorous, but back in the 80s
she wasn't canonicallybisexual and polyamorous. And this
is undoubtedly the mostproblematic aspect of this movie
because it aligns beinghomosexual with being dark, evil
and basically going aroundkilling innocent men, women and children
(28:22):
with your new glowing greenorb that only women can touch, while
also ordering the rape of thewoman who declined your advances
and murdering her entirefamily, save for a sister at the
temple who happens to escapebut still is eventually killed by
your soldiers. It's not thebest representation, but again, this
was the 80s and nowadays wedemand more from our queer representation.
(28:44):
As for Sonja herself, BrigitteNielsen does the best with a terrible
script where Sonja issimultaneously the strongest person
and also has to consistentlybe saved. She is determined, wise,
brave and strong. She hasconstant awareness of the men around
her. And no, women don't needto like men better, men need to be
(29:06):
better. And to be honest, theexperiences Sonja has had so far
fully support her wariness ofmen. Clearly she trusts her grandmaster,
but this is a full on revengestory and Kalidor is literally just
stalking a woman in the vainhope he can save her. And of course,
according to this story, hedoes. Several times. I want to go
(29:27):
back to the Rotten TomatoesSummary. Dull, poorly directed and
badly miscast, Red Sonja is anuninspired conclusion to Schwarzenegger's
Barbarian trilogy. Except it'snot. And that's the point. It's both
an adaptation of a comic bookand also not. It's a sequel slash
spin off to Conan. And it'salso not. It's Sonja with a Y and
(29:50):
Sonja with a J. It doesn'treally know what it is or what it
wants to be, but it's also notthe absolute disaster people make
it out to be. It's not as darkas Conan the Barbarian or as light
as Conan the Destroyer, and itcould have been a trailblazer had
it actually known how to writea woman as more than just a stereotype.
(30:12):
But yes, I think it's abouttime. We credit Red Sonja as the
first live action Marvelmovie, but maybe Sonja with an I
next time. Thank you forlistening. As always, I would love
to hear your thoughts on RedSonja. And as always, thank you for
your continued support of thispodcast. If you want to get involved
(30:33):
and help this podcast grow andreach more people, that would be
amazing. You could tell yourfriends and family about this podcast
or about this episode. Youcould leave a rating or review wherever
you found this podcast. Andyou can find me and follow me on
social media. I am@VerbalDiorama. You can light post,
reply to posts, repost posts,however you want to do it. It's all
(30:56):
a big help in getting otherpeople to know what this podcast
is and hopefully want to comealong for the ride. So I mentioned
I'm doing specifically femalefronted movies and what is the biggest
female fronted movie of recentyears? Well is the subject of the
next episode is what it is andall I'm going to simply say is she's
(31:19):
everything. He's just Ken. Soplease join me next week for the
History and Legacy of Barbie.Now if you enjoy what I do for this
podcast or you simply want tosupport an indie podcaster who does
literally everything herself,if you have some spare change you
can financially contribute tothe future and the upkeep of this
(31:41):
podcast. Now you're under noobligation because this podcast is
free and it always will befree. But if you do get value add
for what I do, there are acouple of ways you can help. If you
can, you can make a one offdonation@verbaldiorama.com tips or
you can subscribe to thepatreon@verbaldiorama.com patreon
(32:01):
all money made goes directlyback into this podcast too. Buy software
subscriptions, pay for thingslike website hosting and also buy
new equipment when it isneeded. Huge thank you to the amazing
patrons of this podcast.Simon, Laurel, Derek, Kat, Andy,
Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott,Brendan, Ian, Lisa, Sam, Jack, Dave,
(32:23):
Stuart, Nicholas, so Kev,Heather, Danny, Stu, Brett, Philip,
M. Xenos, Sean, Rhino, PhilipK, Adam, Elaine, Kyle and Aaron.
If you want to get in touchwith me, you can email verbal diorama@gmail.com.
you can give me feedback,suggestions or you can just say hi.
You can also pop over toverbal diorama.com you can find all
(32:47):
existing episodes on thewebsite and you can also fill out
the nil contact form if youwant to get in touch.
(33:52):
Bye.
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