The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim & The legacy of The Lord of the Rings [Part 5 of 5]

Episode Transcript
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(01:27):
Hi everyone, I'm Em andwelcome to verbal diorama, episode
301, the Lord of the Rings,the War of the Rohirrim, and the
Legacy of the Lord of theRings. This is the podcast that's
all about the history andlegacy of movies you know and movies
you don't. And all MiddleEarth knows the tale of the War of
the ring. But 200 years beforethat, there was an older tale. Welcome

(01:51):
to Verbal Diorama. Whether youare a brand new listener to this
podcast, whether you are aregular returning listener, thank
you for being here. Thank youfor choosing to listen to this podcast
that's now 301 episodes old. Iam so happy to have you here for
the history and legacy of theLord of the Rings, the War of the
Rohirrim, as well as theLegacy of the Lord of the Rings.

(02:13):
Just before I start, just ahuge thank you to everyone who supports
this podcast, listens to thispodcast, and has done over the last
six years and now 300episodes. It genuinely means so much
to me to have a podcast thathas continued for this time. I would

(02:35):
not have continued with thispodcast without the support of the
people who listen. And itgenuinely means so much to me to
have you here with me on thisjourney. And it's not over. There's
going to be plenty morehistory and legacies to come. I am
going to be taking a bit of abreak after this series of episodes,
I'll be completely honest withyou, but I have just cherished every

(03:00):
moment of making this podcast,of talking about these movies, not
just the Lord of the Rings,but literally every single movie
that I've ever talked about. Ilove doing what I do and I love doing
what I do for you guys. The,the people who are listening to this
podcast. So just a huge thankyou. And to be honest, it doesn't

(03:21):
matter if this is the firstever episode that you've listened
to. It really doesn't matterbecause you're still here and you're
still listening. And whetheryou have listened to 301 episodes
or one episode, I reallygenuinely am very grateful for your
support and for your ears. Soyeah, huge thank you to you for your

(03:41):
support. And this episode hereis the fisk of a five part Queen
trilogy, I think is the word.I don't know. I haven't looked that
up beforehand and I can't bebothered to fact check. But you know,
got trilogy quadrilogy. Ithink it's Queen trilogy. Maybe let's

(04:03):
just go with Quinn trilogy onthe history and legacy of the Lord
of the Rings, focusing onPeter Jackson's trilogy, but also
sandwiching that between thetwo animated versions or the two
most prominent, I should sayanimated versions, Rav Bakshi's the
Lord of the Rings from 1978and then the War of the Rohirrim
which came out Last year in2024 as of recording this episode.

(04:26):
And when I thought about doingthe Lord of the Rings, my initial
plan was to only do PeterJackson's trilogy. But if you're
a long time listener of thispodcast, you will know me and you
will also know my ability toconsistently add more stuff to my
plate because I can't seem tohelp but do that. And I thought to

(04:47):
myself that to tell the fullstory meant not just Peter Jackson's
trilogy, it meant also talkingabout Ralph Bakshi's 1978 animated
movie. And so then my secondplan was four movies. But then I
realized I can't stop atJackson's movies because that's not
the end of the story. And Ifeel like I was doing a disservice.

(05:09):
And if anything, I am anabsolute completionist. So I had
to go post Jackson's trilogyas well, with the War of the Rohirriam
then becoming the focus ofthis episode. Because if you're going
to start this series with thegaining of the rites and the story
of Tolkien specifically, thenyou need to end it with, well, how

(05:30):
did they keep those rights?And what is the everlasting legacy
of J.R.R. tolkien's the Lordof the Rings? And this episode and
this movie in this episode isthe answer to one of those things.
So just a brief summary on theepisodes that come before this if
you happen to have notlistened. So the first episode is

(05:50):
basically the start of thestory. I would recommend you listen
to it because it goes intoTolkien's history, the estate's control
of the material, the moviesthat they tried to make before Ralph
Bakshi made his version, RalphBakshi's version. And it talks a
little bit about Saul Zaentzand his link to the rights. And that's

(06:10):
something the rights thatwe're going to delve into more for
this episode. And then ofcourse, the next three episodes on
Peter Jackson's trilogy, theywork as a trilogy of self contained
episodes as well as parts twoto four of this five part series.
You can choose to listen tothem or indeed not. I would personally
recommend them because I'mvery proud of those episodes. But

(06:32):
as I said, this is technicallythe fifth of a five part complete
story of episodes. TheFellowship of the Ring specifically
focused on the beginning ofPeter Jackson's vision for the series.
His dealings with Miramax, themove to New Line Cinema, the various
changes he made to the sourcematerial and specifics on the Fellowship
of the Ring, including castingchoices and the incredible costume

(06:53):
design. The episode on the TwoTowers focused on the Two Towers,
but specifically on the Battleof Helm's Deep and the introduction
of the technology surroundingGollum as well as the production
and art design choices for theseries. The Return of the King went
into the Return of the King aswell as the rest of the visual effects
by Weta Workshop, the makeupand prosthetics and the music across

(07:14):
all of the movies by HowardShaw. And then the culmination of
how it became one of thebiggest Academy Award winning films
of all time. Those episodesare set up not like regular episodes
because obviously they filmedthe movies at the same time. And
so detailed production historyof each movie, it's all intertwined

(07:34):
with each other. So all ofthose episodes are intertwined with
each other. This episode is onthe War of the Rohirrim as well as
the everlasting legacy ofthese movies and the fact that the
Lord of the Rings basicallyset a precedent that Peter Jackson's
Hobbit trilogy then had tofollow. The effect the Lord of the
Rings and the Hobbit had ontourism and film industries in New

(07:55):
Zealand, and of course theretaining of the rights and the future
of the franchise. PeterJackson's the Lord of the Rings trilogy
was a huge success critically,commercially, and a new word that
I'm making up a warderly. Butthe Lord of the Rings wasn't the
only thing J.R.R. tolkienwrote. But to talk a little about

(08:16):
what happened next, we need togo back to the beginning. And you'll
remember some of this ifyou've listened to the episode on
Ralph Bakshi's 1978 animatedversion. But United Artists entered
negotiations with Tolkienpersonally for the rights to the
Lord of the Rings with anoption for the Hobbit. And this was
in 1967. United Artistseventually acquired the film rights

(08:39):
to both the Hobbit and theLord of the rings in 1969 from Tolkien
with 7.5% of gross receipts,minus expenses to be paid to Tolkien.
And this is going to come backup. In 1976, the United Artists sold
most of the rights to producerSaul Zainz, who formed Tolkien Enterprises,

(09:00):
which became Middle EarthEnterprises. United Artists, however,
retained distribution rightsto the Hobbit. Why is this important?
Well, the United ArtistsStudio and its parent company, NGN,
were for sale in themid-1990s. And Harvey Weinstein,
who I never love to talkabout, but sometimes we must, he

(09:22):
would attempt to buy the movierights from the studio during that
time and he was unsuccessful.This would lead to Peter Jackson
going on to adapt the Lord ofthe Rings instead of the Hobbit,
which, as we know, ended up atNew Line Cinema. And their rights
to film a version of theHobbit would expire. In 2010, two
years after the release of theReturn of the King, Peter Jackson

(09:43):
filed a lawsuit against NewLine Cinema for lost revenue from
merchandising, video andcomputer games released in association
with the Fellowship of theRings. He wanted New Line to audit
their accounts and find out ifhe was owed anything that he believed
that he was being withheld. Hedidn't believe at the time that the
suit, which he deemed minor,would stop him moving forward with

(10:07):
an adaptation of the Hobbit.But New Line's co founder, Bob Shea,
was annoyed by the lawsuit. Heaccused Peter Jackson of greed and
stated that Peter Jacksonwould never direct a film for New
Line Cinema ever again. Now,we know this didn't end up being
true, but after a series offlops for New Lines, Shea would eventually

(10:28):
reverse his publicannouncement and try to repair the
relationship between himselfand Jackson. New Line would end up
being fined $125,000 forfailing to provide requested accounts
documentation. But obviously,as I mentioned, the Lord of the Rings
was a huge success,critically, commercially and orderly.

(10:48):
And so in 2006, MGN, who bythat point had new owners, expressed
an interest in teaming up withNew Line Cinema and Peter Jackson
to make the Hobbit. Becauseobviously MGM owned United Artists.
They had the rights to TheHobbit. In December 2007, New Line
and MGM announced that PeterJackson would be executively producing

(11:12):
the Hobbit and its one sequel.He was not the director of these
movies. In February 2008, theTolkien Estate, through the Tolkien
Trust, a British Charity, andHarperCollins Publishers, filed a
lawsuit against New LineCinema for breach of contract and
fraud and demanded $220million in compensation for the Lord

(11:35):
of the Rings trilogy. The suitclaimed New Line had only paid the
estate an upfront fee of$62,500, despite the trilogy's gross
of an estimated $6 billionfrom box office receipts and merchandise
sales. The suit claimed theestate was entitled to 7.5% of all
profits made by any Tolkienfilms as established by the prior

(11:58):
deal that I mentioned earlier,and the suit sought to block the
filming of the Hobbit. Now.This suit was settled in September
2001 for $38 million.Development of the Hobbit proceeded
regardless, and while Jacksonwould not be directing, in April
2008, Guillermo del Toro washired to direct the Hobbit, and it

(12:19):
was a book he had loved as achild and a move that pleased many
fans of the original trilogy,myself included. Longtime listeners
of this podcast will know howmuch I adore del Toro. His movies
are wonderful. Now, I will saythat the story of the Hobbit is probably
deserving of an episode of itsown one day, so. So please do let

(12:40):
me know if you would likeeventual episodes on the Hobbit trilogy.
But as we know, Guillermo delToro left the project eventually
in 2010 after many delays andfinancial troubles with MGM, with
Jackson announcing asreturning to the director's chair
five months later, and it wasnot particularly easy for him to
jump into work that Del Torohad already done. There were also

(13:03):
issues with the union disputein New Zealand with Warner Bros.
A new line considering filmingoutside of the country. New Zealanders
wanted the production toremain in New Zealand and the government
would intervene and theproduction would go ahead with filming
in New Zealand. And then Therewas the two film to three film change,
with del Toro always planningtwo. Jackson confirmed in July 2012

(13:25):
that there were plans for athird, which would make extensive
use of the appendices thatTolkien wrote to support the story
of the Lord of the Rings. Thefirst film was subtitled An Unexpected
Journey, the second wassubtitled the Desolation of Smaug,
and the third was subtitledThere and Back again. But in 2014,
the third film was renamed theBattle of the Five Armies. The Tolkien

(13:48):
estate would file a lawsuitagainst Warner Bros. Again in November
2012. Alleging copyrightinfringement, breach of contract,
and arguing the defendantsexceeded the scope of their rights
to Tolkien's material byproducing gambling and video games
using characters, and that thelimitations of Tolkien's original
sale of the rights in 1969 wasonly limited to tangible products

(14:10):
like action figures andclothing, and not electronic or digital
rights. Obviously electronicand digital rights not really existing.
In 1969, Tolkien's estateclaimed that the defendant's actions
had caused irreparable harm toTolkien's legacy, despite the Saul
Zainz company filing acounterclaim as well as other Warner

(14:33):
parties. The lawsuit would besettled in July 2017 for a confidential
amount. The film rights andthe TV rights to Tolkien's material
are separate, and for thatreason Amazon would come along and
buy the TV rights for the Lordof the Rings in November 2017 for
$250 million, with a fiveseason commitment to a series planned

(14:55):
to be the next Game ofThrones. The commitment was worth
at least $1 billion, making itthe most expensive TV series ever
made. Jackson's trilogies arebased on the third age of middle
Earth. The Rings of Power isset a thousand years before the novel
and primarily based on theappendices of the Lord of the Rings,
which include major events ofthe Second Age of Middle Earth. For

(15:18):
legal reasons, it's not adirect continuation of Jackson's
the Lord of the Rings and theHobbit film trilogies, but younger
versions of the sameincarnations of characters such as
Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalfdo appear interestingly and differently
to the Jackson movies. TheTolkien estate and the Tolkien Trust
worked with Amazon on theRings of Power to, quote, protect

(15:39):
Tolkien's legacy, unquote,which the estate felt they were unable
to do with the previousadaptations. The estate imposed creative
restrictions on the series,and while Peter Jackson said in December
2018 that he and his filmproducing partners would read some
of the scripts for the seriesand offer notes on them, he later
stated that this didn'thappen. Allison explained that the

(16:01):
deal to acquire the televisionrights for the Lord of the Rings
required them to keep theseries distinct from Jackson's films
and Tolkien's estate werereportedly against Jackson's involvement
in the project and as I'vementioned in the episodes that I
did on Peter Jackson's movies,the Tolkien estate are, shall we
say, not the biggest fans ofthose movies and therefore not the

(16:23):
biggest fans of Peter Jacksonhimself. Now, the Rings of Power
has struggled for widespreadfandom acceptance and has received
mixed to positive criticalreviews, suggesting that there's
room for improvement, but itdoes beg the question why Amazon
themselves have neverattempted to buy the film rights
from Saul Zanes. I guess we'llnever know. Simon Tolkien, a novelist

(16:46):
and the grandson of J.R.R.tolkien, consulted on the series
and helped develop its storyand character arcs and he is credited
as a series consultant. Lordof the Rings fan films have generally
been allowed to exist by theTolkien estate and the film rights
holders as long as they arenon commercial. Many filmmakers use
these projects as showcasesfor their talents, with some going

(17:10):
on to professional careers infilmmaking. Some of the most well
known Lord of the Rings fanfilms include the Hunt for Gollum
from 2009, which is perhapsthe most famous Lord of the Rings
fan film. It is directed, co,written, co produced and co scored
by Chris Bouchard and it is anambitious 40 minute production which
serves as a prequel to themain trilogy following Aragorn as

(17:33):
he searches for Gollum. It wasmade on a 3,000 pound budget, but
it does feature impressiveproduction values, costumes and visual
effects in an attempt to matchPeter Jackson's style. And I am going
to be coming back to the Huntfor Gollum a bit later. There's also
Born of Hope, also from 2009,which is another high quality fan

(17:53):
film produced and directed byKate Madison that tells the story
of Aragorn's parents and hisbirth. It's set before the main trilogy
and explores the time whenSauron's forces were hunting the
heirs of Isildor. But we needto bring this story to the 2000 and
twenties and the evolution ofthe rights to the Lord of the rings.
In 2022, Middle EarthEnterprises, which was owned by the

(18:15):
Saul's AIDS company whichhelped the film rights, was acquired
by Embracer Group, a Swedishvideo game company. This acquisition
included the worldwide rightsto motion pictures, video games,
board games, merchandising,theme parks and stage productions
related to the Lord of theRings and the Hobbit. The takeover

(18:35):
stemmed from a lawsuit betweenZaentz and Warner Bros. Over whether
the studio was fulfilling itsdevelopment obligations to hold onto
its license. To celebrate theoriginal trilogy's 20th anniversary,
Warner Brothers had put intoproduction an anime prequel to try
and meet its fulfillment andretain the rights to both the Lord
of the Rings and the Hobbits.The Saul Zaentz Company had deemed

(18:58):
this adaptation insufficient,hence the lawsuit. But since they
were no longer in the picture,New Line Cinema and Warner Brothers
Animation pressed forwardswith their animated prequel. And
so here's the trailer for theLord of the the War of the Rahirrim

(21:17):
King Helm Hammerhand, thelegendary king of Rohan and the Rohirrim
courageously defend against asudden invasion led by the vengeful
dunlending Lord Wulf. Wulf, aclever and ruthless former childhood
friend of Hera, the daughterof Helm, seeks vengeance for the
death of his father at HelmHammerhand's hands. He and his army
forces Helm and his people tomake a daring last stand in the ancient

(21:40):
stronghold of the Hornburg, amighty fortress that will later become
known as Helm's Deep. Bindingherself in an increasingly desperate
situation, Hiram is summonedthe Will to lead the resistance against
a deadly enemy intent on theirtotal destruction. Lets run through
the cast. We have Brian Cox asHell Hammerhand, Gaia Wise as Hera,

(22:03):
Luke Pasqualino as Wolf,Lawrence Ubong Williams as Freelaf
Hilderson, Lorraine Ashbourneas Olwin and Miranda Otto as Eowyn.
There's also archivalrecordings of Christopher Lee as
Saruman and cameos by BillyBoyd and Dominic Monaghan as the
Orcs Shank and rot. The Lordof the the War of the Rohirrim has

(22:26):
a screenplay by Jeffrey Addis,Will Matthews, Phoebe Gittins and
Artie Papa Georgiou, a storyby Jeffrey Addis, Will Matthews and
Philippa Boyens, was directedby Kenji Kamiyama and was based on
characters created by J.R.R.tolkien. Two hundred years before
Bill Bird Baggins found theOne Ring, the legendary Helm Hammerhand,

(22:49):
the ninth king of Rohan, wasthe prime target for a new animated
film adaptation of the Lord ofthe Rings. Tolkien mentions Helm
Hammerhand in the appendicesof the Lord of the Rings, specifically
the House of Eorl section inthe Annals of the Kings and Rulers
in Appendix A, which detailsthe history of Rohan's rulers. It's
there that Tolkien brieflywrote about Helm Hammerhand and his

(23:13):
clash with the Dunlending LordWulf, which led to the first siege
of Helm's Deep, a castle onlyknown as the Hornburg. Beforehand,
Tolkien named Helm and his twosons Hammer and Halith, but his daughter
remained unnamed and her fatewas also unclear. There's even debate
that Tolkien may not havethought of Helm's full history until

(23:33):
after he'd published the TwoTowers, the book, which famously
features a battle at Helm'sDeep between the beleaguered people
of Rohan and the Orcs ofIsengard. But the movie isn't really
focused on Helm, it's morefocused on his previously unnamed
daughter. So let's go intothat with the Lord of the Rings and
the Hobbit, both expensive andlavish productions with years of

(23:55):
pre production. The switch toan animated expansion of the franchise
had been discussed for yearsbefore they settled on making an
anime film. Leading the chargethis time around wasn't Peter Jackson,
but his friend and co writerPhilippa Boyens, and the reasons
for making a new Lord of theRings was pretty clear from the off.
This was purely to retain thefilm rights, and it would essentially

(24:18):
be fast tracked to do so.Animation seemed the perfect medium
to depict Tolkien's lavishworlds without the additional production
budget needed to do so in reallife. This, of course, isn't the
first time the Lord of theRings has been adapted into animation.
The first episode in thisseries went into Rav Bakshi's animation
from 1978 and brieflymentioned the Rankin Bass adaptations

(24:40):
too. Anime was a slightlydifferent choice though, but anime
would distinguish it fromPeter Jackson's live action Middle
Earth films while stillmaintaining a connection to the franchise.
Anime also has a dedicatedglobal fan base that extends beyond
traditional Tolkien audiences.The story of Helm Hammerhand, a mighty
warrior who can kill a guywith one punch, also involves legendary

(25:02):
battles and heroic feats thatlead themselves well to the dynamic
visual storytelling approachcommon in anime. It would also avoid
the story of Sauron and theOne Ring and therefore avoid crossover
with Jackson's originaltrilogy. Director Kanji Kamiyama
had previous experienceworking with Warner Bros. On Blade
Runner Black Lotus, which wascancelled in 2022. He started as

(25:25):
a background artist for Akiraand Kiki's Delivery Service and made
his directorial debut withGhost in the Shell standalone complex
in 2002. The Kingdom of Rohanwould be an ideal focus, mostly because
viewers were familiar with theRohirrim and with Helm's Deep, and
Boyans believed the culturewas suited to an anime depiction.

(25:47):
The movie was titled the Lordof the the War of the Rohirrim. Jeffrey
Addis and Will Matthews werehired to write the initial screenplay.
They previously found successas the creators of the Dark Age of
Resistance for Netflix, whichhad demonstrated their ability to
work with established fantasyproperties. Their screenplay was
reportedly focused on thestory of Helm Hammerhand, the legendary

(26:10):
king of Rohan who ruled duringa time of great crisis about 183
years before the events of theLord of the Rings. The narrative
was said to explore theorigins of Helm's Deep and the conflicts
that shaped the Kingdom ofRohan during this tumultuous period.
During the COVID 19 lockdowns,Philippa Boyens would ask her daughter

(26:30):
Phoebe Gittins and her writingpartner Artie Papa Georgiou to rewrite
the script. And in theirrevised script, they moved the focus
from Helm to his unnameddaughter, taking inspiration from
the historic female leaderAethelflaed, as well as Tolkien's
other female characters likeEowyn. They didn't necessarily want
to write her as a girl boss ora warrior princess character, but

(26:52):
as a free spirited young womanwho could make her own choices separately
to her role as Rohan'sprincess. While the War of the Rohirrim
largely invented a storylinefor its protagonist, the overall
arc of the tale issurprisingly faithful to Tolkien's
writings. In the House ofEorl, the conflict is kicked off
in the exact same way, withHelm's daughter being betrothed to

(27:13):
Wolf, the marriage fallingthrough, and Helm killing Wolf's
father and banishing him as aresult. Tolkien's appendices and
I'm not going to recite themall but specifically say quote to
one of these councils. Frecarode with many men, and he asked
the hand of Helm's daughterfor his son Wulf. But Helm said,
you have grown big since youwere last here, but it is mostly

(27:35):
fat, I guess. And men laughedat that, for Frecker was wide in
the belt. Then Freca fell intoa rage and reviled the king. He said
this at the last old kingsthat refuse a proffered staff may
fall on their knees. Helmanswered, come, the marriage of your
son is a trifle. Let Helm andFreka deal with it later. Meanwhile,

(27:56):
the king and his council havematters of moment to consider. When
the council was over, Helmstood up and laid his great hand
on Freca's shoulder, saying,the king does not permit brawls in
his house, but men are freeroutside. And he forced Freca to walk
before him out from Edaurusinto the field. To Freca's men that
came up, he said, be off. Weneed no hearers. We are going to

(28:19):
speak of a private matteralone. Go and talk to my men. And
they looked and saw the king'smen and his friends far outnumbered
them, and they drew back. Now,Dunlending, said the king, you have
only Helm to deal with aloneand unarmed. But you have said much
already, and it is my turn tospeak. Frecka, your folly has grown
with your belly. You talk of astaff. If Helm dislikes a crooked

(28:43):
staff that is thrust upon him,he breaks it so with that he smote
Frecker such a blow with hisfist that he fell back stunned and
died soon after. Helm thenproclaimed Freca's son and Nirkjun
the king's enemies, and theyfled. For at once Helm sent many
men riding to the westmarches. Many other events are also

(29:04):
drawn directly from theappendices of the Lord of the Rings,
such as the fall of Adorus,the death of Helm's sons, Freilaf
arriving at the Hornburg tosave the day, and Helm's one man
campaign to destroy theDunlending army in the dead of winter,
which leads to him beingdubbed a Wraith. Even Helm's ultimate
fate is the same. As Tolkienwrote quote, Helm Hammerhand at the

(29:30):
end of his reign, Rohansuffered a great loss by invasion
and the long winter. Helm andhis sons Halith and Hammer perished.
Frielaf, Helm's sister's son,became king. Helm grew fierce and
gaunt for famine and grief,and the dread of him alone was worth
many men. In the defence ofthe burg, he would go out by himself,
clad in white, and stalk likea snow troll into the camps of his

(29:53):
enemies and slay many men withhis hands. It was believed that if
he bore no weapon, no weaponwould bite on him. One night men
heard the horn blowing, butHelm did not return. In the morning
there came a sun gleam, thefirst for long days. And they saw
a white figure standing stillon the dyke alone, for none of the
Dunlendings dare come near.There stood Helm, dead as a stone,

(30:17):
but his knees were unbent. Yetmen said that the horn was still
heard at times in the deep,and the wraith of Helm would walk
among the foes of Rohan andkill men with fear, unquote. And
as I mentioned in all of theappendices, Helm's daughter remained
unnamed and her story, likemany others in Middle Earth is forgotten

(30:37):
by history. And let's behonest, despite having a wife and
daughter himself, Tolkiennever really focused on women. In
Middle Earth. Women werepowerful women like Galadriel, Arwen
and Eowyn, but they were alsofew in comparison to the male characters.
Tolkien's wife Edith was askilled pianist, and yet she was
expected to stay home and takecare of the children, as many wives

(31:01):
in the early 20th century andbefore had to do. It does actually
make narrative sense to focuson a young woman and the shield maidens,
and the idea that marriagebetween houses was, up until very
recently in the Western world,seen as the prime objective for a
young woman's life. The entrypoint to the story would be the narration
by Eowyn herself as acharacter everyone knew telling the

(31:25):
story of the ancestors ofRohan. While Helm's daughter was
unnamed in Tolkien'sappendices because all the family
members had names startingwith H, it was Fran Walsh who suggested
the daughter's name also startwith H and the name Hera was chosen
after Hera Hilmar, theIcelandic actress who starred in
the film Mortal Engines andnot a reference to the goddess Hera

(31:48):
of ancient Greek religion.After the film was announced in June
2021, the cast was announcedin June 2022 with Brian Cox as Helm,
Gaia Wise as Hera, and LukePasqualino as Wolf, with Miranda
Otto returning as Eowyn. BrianCox obviously needs no introduction.
Gaia Wise you may not know,but you will know her incredibly

(32:10):
famous Academy Award winningactor, screenwriter, mother, and
that is Emma Thompson. GaiaWise is her daughter with actor Greg
Wise. Richard Taylor, thecreative director of special effects
company Weta Workshop, andTolkien illustrators Alan Lee and
John Howe all returned fromJackson's film trilogy to work on

(32:31):
the War of the Rohirrian. Theproducers didn't want to just make
an animated version ofJackson's style and instead embraced
anime and Kamiyama's stylespecifically, as well as taking inspiration
from Akira Kurosawa and HayaoMiyazaki. Locations in the War of
the Rahim that were previouslyseen in Jackson's films were shown
in concept art, including theRohan capital of Edoras, the stronghold

(32:56):
at the Hornburg, which becomesknown as Helm's Deep, and the Fortress
of Isengard. Old models fromWeta's archives were used as inspiration
for some of the designs. Theanimation was started in June 2021
by Solar Entertainment and thegoal for the design of the characters
was to retain as much realismas possible while still being recognizably

(33:18):
anime Although the movie isanimated in 2D, many techniques and
styles went into the making ofthe War of the Rohirrim. This movie
is almost a mix of thetechnology used to create Ralph Bakshi's
version and the technologyused to create Gollum. In that the
team had actors do motioncapture performances of the characters
for the entire film beforecreating models of the scenes in

(33:41):
real time. Gaming engines likeUnreal to work out camera angles
and movements to create 2Danimation. Kamiyama was clear that
his intention wasn't to doRotoscope and instead had clear instructions
for his animators to interpretand translate the motion capture
as a reference for the 2Danimation. Animation was chosen for

(34:01):
this movie because it wasdeemed as easier than doing it in
live action. That easy issubjective because the timelines
on this movie were incrediblytight. And then they increased the
running time from 90 minutesinitially to almost two and a half
hours. So more than 60companies had to be brought on board
to help finish the animation.The traditional process of anime,

(34:24):
with keyframe animators comingup with the individual character
performances and then thedirector giving feedback and the
animators going back to thedrawing board, would take too long
on this particular project.Likewise, what would normally be
a team of around 40 people inhouse doing cleanup and corrections
on a project at this size wasreduced to only two in house crew

(34:44):
members for War of theRohirrian. And so international studios
were needed to help out inorder to meet the release schedule.
Some animators did work soloon certain scenes. Hisao Yokobori,
known for his work on Lupinthe Third, animated the Watcher in
the water and drew the wholecreature himself. And probably the
one word I keep mentioning inthis five episode series most often

(35:08):
is the word ambitious. RalphBakshi was ambitious, Peter Jackson
was ambitious, and so is theteam here. What might take closer
to five years and involve abig set of animation directors was
instead done in just a coupleof years with a single director.
And everything from motioncapture data to CG movement to camera

(35:28):
check to every single shotthat came up in terms of drawing
was personally checked byKenji Kamiyama. Not everything was
motion captured. Some sceneswere traditionally drawn, like Hera's
last duel with Wolf, which wasdone entirely using keyframes rather
than relying on motion capturewith exaggerated expressions and
inhuman movements thataccentuated the action. And this

(35:51):
is a movie of oftenbreathtaking beauty. Middle Earth
is captured with vivid colorsand rich backgrounds which do harken
back to some of Miyazaki'smost beautiful vistas. And the Mimakyl
scene with the watcher in thewater does have a very Princess Mononoke
look and feel to it. The Warof the Rohirrim isn't the first animation
of a Tolkien property to beanimated in Japan. It was actually

(36:14):
the Rankin Bass animatedversions of The Hobbit in 1977 and
the Return of the King in1980. They were animated by Japan's
top craft studio, which thenalso went on to make Miyazaki's Nausicaa
of the Valley of the Wind. Andit's like a lot on this podcast,
and in these episodesespecially, it almost feels like
a full circle moment. Also, afull circle moment is whenever I

(36:39):
segue into the obligatoryKeanu reference of the episodes that
I do now. Pretty much everysingle episode of this podcast, apart
from a few standout omissions,I do something called the obligatory
Keanu reference. And it'swhere I link the movie that I'm featuring
with Keanu Reeves. And thegeneral rul is I can't reuse a reference
from another episode. I'vestarted to loosen that rule a little

(37:01):
bit because after 300episodes, it kind of starts to get
a bit difficult. And the Lordof the Rings is one of those things.
It's always going to bedifficult to link Keanu Reeves to
the Lord of the Rings orTolkien. And animation as well. It's
always hard to link Keanu toanimation unless it's spongebob or
Toy Story. But for thisepisode's obligature Keanu reference,

(37:23):
I thought to myself, well,where is this movie set? It's set
in Rohan. Rohan is thefictional kingdom of Men. And who
in this world is the best ofMen? Why, it's Keanu Reeves, of course,
and it's a terrible reference,but it's the one I'm gonna go with,
because trying to link KeanuReeves to this movie is really hard.

(37:44):
And it's something that I'mjust gonna have to kind of wing from
now on because I feel like I'mrunning out of references to use.
But, you know, it's just a bitof fun. I mentioned last episode
on the Return of the King, Ispoke specifically about Howard Shaw's
score for the Lord of theRings and how I feel like it's one
of the greatest scores evermade for a movie ever, because it's

(38:07):
so varied and rich, and youcan literally put a piece of music
on and it will transport youexactly to that time in the trilogy
where that music is played.And while some of Howard Shaw's music
specifically his Rohan theme,were reprised for this movie. Stephen
Gallagher, who'd been themusic editor on Peter Jackson's the

(38:28):
Hobbit trilogy, was chosen tocompose the score for the War of
the Rohirrim in February 2023.An original song called the Rider
was written by Phoebe Gittinsand composer David Long, and that
was performed by Britishsinger songwriter Paris Paloma. And
obviously with a film serieslike the Lord of the Rings, anything

(38:48):
that comes out surrounding theLord of the Rings is going to cause
quite a bit of fan excitement.And a first look at the film's concept
art, which showed theinfluence of Jackson's films on its
visuals, was revealed inFebruary 2022. Unfinished footage
was shown at the AnnecyInternational Animation film festival

(39:09):
in June 2023, and during apanel at the Annecy International
film festival in 2024, it wasannounced that Peter Jackson and
Fran Walsh, who had previouslynot been involved in an official
capacity, were now executivelyproducing the project. It was, in
all intents and purposes beingmarketed as Peter Jackson Presents

(39:30):
the Lord of the the War of theRohirrim. Philippa Boyens joined
director Kenji Kamiyama andproducers Joseph chu and Jason DeMarco
on stage at Annecy for aconversation moderated by Bolan himself,
andy Serkis, and 20 minutes offinished footage was screened at
the festival in 2024 and waspositively received, and so audience

(39:52):
anticipation for this moviewas relatively high. The Lord of
the Rings has traditionallyalways had a December release, and
this movie is no exception,premiering in Leicester Square, London
on 3rd December 2024 and beingreleased on 5th December 2024. But
it wasn't always intended tobe released in December. It was supposed

(40:14):
to be released on 12 April2024. But the SAG AFTRA strikes caused
delays across the industry anda chain reaction of events meant
Warner Brothers redating itsreleases, and this was spurred by
Legendary Entertainment's JunePart 2, moving from 3 November 2023
to 15 March 2024, which thenpushed their other title, Godzilla

(40:38):
x Kong the new empire, from 15March 2024 to 12 April 2024, and
no one in their right mindwants to take on Godzilla and Kong.
The Lord of the the War of theRohirrim opened on 13th December
2024 in the US, debuting at6th at the US box office in a crowded

(41:00):
box office with Moana 2 ontop, Wicked just below it, Kraven
the Hunter debuting the SameWeek at 3, and Gladiator 2 at 4.
Even a RE release ofInterstellar beat the War of the
Rohirrim in its second week ofrelease. The War of the Rohirrim
stayed in the top 10 for oneweek, dropping to 13th in its second,

(41:21):
and it ended up beingavailable on digital just 14 days
after it was released incinemas. And while this didn't have
the budget of Jackson'strilogy, it was made for $30 million,
which is quite a large budgetfor an anime, but it takes into account
the many, many studios thatneeded to help to get this done.

(41:43):
The Lord of the Rings the Warof The Rohirrim grossed $9.2 million
domestically in the US and$11.5 million internationally, for
a total worldwide gross of$20.7 million. On Rotten Tomatoes,
it has a rating of 48%, withthe website's consensus reading this
animated deep cut from theLord of the Rings mythos has plenty

(42:05):
of spectacle, but its clichedcharacters and uneven animation resemble
Middle of the Road more thanthey do Middle Earth. Considering
how the footage had takenAnnecy by storm, the critical and
commercial reaction to the Warof the Rohirrim was disappointing
to say the least. And mypersonal experience of this movie,
I saw it for the first time onBlu ray and while parts of the movie

(42:29):
were really impressive, theanimation was so beautiful, other
parts of the movie just didn'tseem to match that animation style.
It was almost like some partsof the movie had lots of time spent
on and then other parts feltreally rushed and overall the movie
felt really rushed. But it'snot all doom and gloom. The truth

(42:50):
is this didn't need toactually be a hit, it just needed
to be. It did what it neededto do. It retained New Line Cinema
and Warner Bros. The rights tomake more movies set in Middle Earth,
which is exactly what's goingto happen. After Middle Earth Enterprises
were acquired by Embrace thegroup, Warner Bros. And New Line

(43:11):
signed a new deal with them tomake more Lord of the Rings live
action films. In October 2024,Philippa Boyens stated they'd begun
to work conceptually on twodifferent live action films, the
first being titled the Huntfor Gollum, the second still to be
confirmed and I told you wewere going to be coming back to the
Hunt for Gollum because yes,it has the same name as the fan film.

(43:36):
The Hunt for Gollum will bedirected by Andy Serkis, who will
also reprise the role ofGollum, and it takes place in the
time between the Hobbit andthe Lord of the Rings. The Fellowship
of the Ring. The When Aragorn,known as Strider, is tasked with
tracking down Gollum toprevent Sauron from learning the
ring's whereabouts. InFebruary 2025, Serkis said filming

(43:57):
would take place in 2026.Reports are that Wellington, New
Zealand will serve as theproduction hub for the new Lord of
the Rings films. Continuingthe tradition to film in New Zealand.
The Hunt for Gollum isscheduled currently to be released
on 17th December 2027. So thisis the end, the everlasting legacy

(44:18):
of the Lord of the Rings fromTolkien's stories through each adaptation
we've gone into to this theend of all things. It's time to drop
the wolf into the fires ofMordor and think about how far we've
come on a journey throughambition, perseverance and hard work
through revolutionary visualeffects while simultaneously championing

(44:40):
practical craftsmanship.Gollum's motion capture performance
broke new ground technically.While the handcrafted armor, miniatures
and prosthetics showed theenduring value of traditional filmmaking
techniques, these movies were,are, and continue to be the best
of all worlds. What trulydistinguishes Jax's achievement is

(45:02):
how the trilogy balancesspectacle with emotional resonance,
creating an epic that neverloses sight of its intimate character
moments and themes offriendship, courage and hope against
overwhelming odds. RalphBakshi's work influenced Peter Jackson,
and his films would go on tocreate a global community of fans
that span generations andestablishing a visual language for

(45:25):
Middle Earth that continues toinform new adaptations like the War
of the Rahirrim. Countlessmoments from the trilogy have been
absorbed into Internet cultureand everyday communication. One does
not simply walk into Mordor.My precious, you shall not pass.
All demonstrate how thoroughlythese films permeate popular consciousness.

(45:47):
Anyone on Instagram will knowof the countless memes and videos
that I've been posting on mystories. There's so many of them,
and they're so good. Thetrilogy transformed New Zealand's
film industry into a globalproduction hub, creating infrastructure
and developing talent andestablishing a reputation that continues
to attract internationalproductions and tourists. Lots and

(46:10):
lots of tourists. In manyways, the Lord of the Rings and by
extension the Hobbit were freemarketing for the New Zealand Tourist
Board. In fact, they estimatethat approximately 3 to 6% of international
visitors in the yearsfollowing the films, which represents
hundreds of thousands oftourists, annually cited the Lord
of the Rings as a primaryreason for visiting New Zealand.

(46:33):
This Tolkien tourismphenomenon has generated billions
of dollars in tourism revenuesince 2001, and they've invested
heavily in marketing,highlighting filming locations with
dedicated sections on theirwebsite for Middle Earth experiences.
Dozens of film specific tourcompanies emerged across both islands
offering everything from halfday excursions to comprehensive two

(46:56):
week Middle Earth tours.Notable sites like Hobbiton in Mata
Matta, the Wetter Workshop inWellington, and numerous locations
in areas like Queenstown andMount Sunday became major tourism
destinations. And the film'slegacy extends beyond Tolkien tourism.
The successful positioning ofNew Zealand as a filming location

(47:17):
led to many other majorproductions choosing the country,
creating a self reinforcingstyle cycle of film tourism. The
government recognized thisvalue by offering significant tax
incentives to productions thatwould showcase New Zealand landscapes.
Big movies that also filmed inNew Zealand include James Cameron's
Avatar movies, Ragnarok,District 9, the Meg and Megan. Weta

(47:42):
Digital's Journey fromHeavenly Creatures through to Gollum
would mean it went on tobecome a global visual effects powerhouse,
establishing a relationshipwith James Cameron for Avatar and
its multiple sequels, pluscollaborating on some of the biggest
movies of all time includingInfinity War and Endgame. They worked
on the cutting edge effects ofthe Planet of the Apes reboot trilogy,

(48:04):
enhancing their motion capturetechnology further. Pioneering facial
capture technology that couldrecord subtle facial movements with
unprecedented detail. WetaDigital was acquired by unity Technologies
in 2021 in a deal worthapproximately $1.6 billion. It's
now split into two entities.Weta FX, the visual effects service

(48:25):
business, continues to work onfilms and Weta Digital, the technology
division, became part ofUnity. It's one of the most significant
success stories in the visualeffects industry, creating a lasting
legacy well beyond MiddleEarth. Tolkien's influence on fantasy
can't be understated either.The Lord of the Rings has inspired

(48:46):
countless imitations andrespectful homages like the Sword
of Shannara, which is seen bymany as a shameless copy, and Ursula
Le Guin's Earthsea series. Andnot just books either, but games
like Baldur's Gate, Everquest,Warcraft and the Legend of Zelda
all have roots in Tolkien, aswell as of course, Dungeons and Dragons,

(49:06):
which contains many of thesame creatures and races as Middle
Earth. So much so that GaryGygax had to rename some of the characters
after a lawsuit from Tolkien'sestate. Beyond cinema, Tolkien's
books, Ralph Bakshi'sanimation, Peter Jackson's trilogy,
and Kenji Kamiyama's animesparked a renaissance in fantasy,
literature, gaming andtelevision that directly enabled

(49:28):
everything from Game ofThrones to the Marvel Cinematic Universe,
while demonstrating theaudience's crave's sincere, emotionally
resident spectacle overcynical entertainment that they wanted
earnest, practical filmmakingover swathes of CG that they wanted
an enduring, shared culturaltouchstone that bridges generations

(49:48):
with the themes of friendship,courage, and hope against darkness,
resonating as powerfully todayas they did 70 years ago when Tolkien
originally published the Lordof the Rings in 1954 and 1955. The
world is indeed full of peril,and in it there are many dark places,

(50:09):
but there is still much thatis fair. And though in all lands
love is now mingled withgrief, it grows perhaps the greater
thank you for listening. Asalways, I would love to hear your
thoughts on the Lord of theRings, the War of the Rohirrim, or
indeed of this series ingeneral. Please let me know your
thoughts about it. And ofcourse, thank you for your continued

(50:30):
support of this podcast. Ifyou want to help and see this podcast
grow further, you can getinvolved. You can tell friends and
family about this podcast. Youcan leave a rating or review wherever
you found this podcast or thisepisode. And you can find me Follow
Me on Social Media I amerbaldiorama on all major social
media platforms and you canlike post, share, post, comment on

(50:54):
posts. It all helps. Now thisis the part where I normally see
say what I'm doing next, butin all honesty, I'm going to be taking
a bit of a break from thispodcast after working so hard on
these five episodes. So I'mgoing to be taking a couple of weeks
and then I'm going to becoming back with something a little
bit special I think. A coupleof years ago I did a series on this

(51:17):
podcast which I called Kaijunand it was Kaiju movies in the month
of June. Now we are going tobe in the month of June and I can't
really do a full Kaiju seriesin the month of June because there's
only going to be two weeks inthe month of June. But I thought
I want to do something. I wantto do some monster movies because

(51:38):
there's nothing I love morethan monster movies. So I'm coming
back after a couple of weekswith the movie Anaconda from 1997
because technically it is aKaiju movie. Kaiju is just basically
big monster movie and you knowmy Anaconda don't want none unless
you got buns hun. So I justjust want to get that line into the

(52:01):
episode somewhere. So pleasejoin me in a few weeks time for episode
302 on Anaconda now if youenjoy what I do for this podcast
or you simply just want tosupport an indie creator who does
literally everything byherself. If you have some spare change.
You can financially contributeto the upkeep of this podcast. Now

(52:22):
you are under no obligation.This podcast is free and it always
will be free to listen to. Butif you do get value out of what I
do, there are a couple of waysyou can help. If you wish, you can
make a one offdonation@verbaldiorama.com tips or
you can subscribe to thePatreon to support the show@verbaldiorama.com

(52:42):
Patreon and all money madegoes back into this podcast by paying
for things like software,subscriptions, website hosting or
new equipment. Huge thank youto the incredible patrons of this
podcast. I could not do what Ido without their constant support.
They are Claudia, Simon,Laurel, Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke,

(53:04):
Michael, Scott, Brendan, Lisa,Sam, Jack, Dade, Stuart, Nicholas,
so, Kev, Pete, Heather, Danny,Ali, Stew, Brett, Fav, Philip, M.
Xenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip K,Adam, Elaine, Kyle and Aaron. If
you want to get in touch, youcould email verbaldioramail.com you

(53:24):
can also visit mywebsite@verbaldiorama.com and you
can fill out the littlecontact form. I'm going to go and
have a bit of a sleep afterthis incredible epic journey that
I've been on. But I will beback in a few weeks. I hope you have
enjoyed this series, myprecious. And finally. Bye

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The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim & The legacy of The Lord of the Rings [Part 5 of 5]

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