March 6, 2025 • 49 mins
This month on Verbal Diorama, we celebrate Women’s History Month, and it’s the perfect time to highlight the Agojie; fierce African warriors of the kingdom of Dahomey, who fought not just for their country, but for a legacy that resonates today.
Watching The Woman King is like stepping into a vivid tapestry of history, action, and empowerment that celebrates the resilience of women in an often overlooked narrative - 19th century black women in positions of power and influence.
It’s not just about battles and victories; it's about the emotional journey of these women, their struggles, and their triumphs against the backdrop of a kingdom at war. There's no way to sugar coat the fact that the film's portrayal of Dahomey's involvement in the Atlantic slave trade isn't entirely accurate, however there are always nuanced discussions about historical representation in movies that are here primarily to entertain.
And The Woman King does indeed entertain, as well as tell an important story of sisterhood, strength, bravery and shines a light on black women's excellence. While The Woman King is fictionalized, it still sheds light on significant female roles in African history - history that we may not know without this movie's existence.
Representation matters, and The Woman King serves as a powerful example of how narratives centred around strong black women can inspire future generations. Let's just hope Hollywood sees fit to make more of them...
I would love to hear your thoughts on The Woman King !
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(02:39):
Hi, everyone. I'm Em. Welcometo verbal diorama, episode 290 of
the Woman King. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't that always
obeys Igozie. Welcome toVerbal Diorama. Whether you are a
brand new listener to thispodcast or whether you're a regular
returning listener who'scoming back, thank you for being
(03:01):
here. Thank you for choosingto listen to this podcast. I am so
happy to have you here for thehistory and Legacy of the Woman King.
It is Women's History Monthand this weekend is International
Women's Day, and we rarely seewomen's stories in history. And history
being written by the victor issomething I'll be mentioning a lot
(03:22):
today because the role ofwomen in society has meant that the
men writing history haverarely seen fit to tell many stories
of women. But thankfully, wehave some incredible stories now
coming to light. This month onVerbal Diorama celebrates women from
all walks of life, fromwarriors to queens to single mothers
(03:43):
and women in sport. But asalways, a huge thank you to everyone
who listens to this podcastand has continued to listen to and
support this podcast over thelast six years and now 290 episodes.
This podcast recentlycelebrated its sixth birthday and
it was just such a wonderful,joyous celebration of animated episodes.
(04:05):
Huge thank you to everyone foryour continued support of this podcast.
It genuinely means so much tome to be still doing this podcast
and to be able to talk aboutmovies like the Woman King, which
Cards on the table. Iabsolutely love this movie. So it
is a movie that I've beenwanting to talk about for quite some
time, but I've been saving itfor this month in particular because
(04:29):
it is Women's History Month.International Women's Day is right
around the corner as of therelease of this episode, and it is
a day and A month for us toremember the stories of the women
who came before us, whoinspire us, and who shape the world
for women and girls today. Asa woman in podcasting who's inspired
by women from all walks oflife, all cultures and all professions,
(04:52):
it made complete sense to meto focus on women in film. And not
only women in film, but truestories of women put to film. There
was only one movie I wanted tostart this month off with, A movie
that I found incrediblyinspiring and empowering, and a movie
that, unsurprisingly, had anepic battle of its own to get made
(05:12):
in the first place. Here isthe trailer for the Woman King.
(07:43):
The Kingdom of dahomey. WestAfrica 1823 having sworn to risk
life and limb to protect theland, the formidable General Naniska
and the Agoji, the elite allfemale military regiment of King
Gezo, keep the threat of theOyo empire at bay. As the unbroken
sisterhood trains a newgeneration of fearless warriors,
(08:04):
their battle scarred leaderseeks alternative sources of profit.
However, Gezo's participationin the slave trade paves the way
for the inevitable violentconfrontation between the Agoji,
the Oyo and the slavers thatwill compromise the kingdom's future,
let's as always, run throughthe cast of this movie. We have Viola
(08:24):
Davis as General Naniska, TusoMbedou as Nawi, Lashana lynch as
Egozi, Sheila Atim as AmenzaHero Fine Tiffin as Santo Ferreira,
John Boyega as King Gezo,Jordan Bolger as Malik and Jimmy
Odokoya as General Oba. TheWoman king has a screenplay by Dana
(08:49):
Stevens, a story by MariaBello and Dana Stevens and was directed
by Gina Prince bythewood ViolaDavis, the only African American
actor to achieve the triplecrown of acting and the youngest
person to achieve it all tooan Oscar for Fences an Emmy for How
to Get Away with murder andnot one but two Tonys for fences
(09:12):
and King Hedley II. Vona Davisalso completed her EGOT in 2023,
winning a Grammy for BestAudiobook Narration and Storytelling
Recording for herautobiography Finding Me. It took
a literal army of women to getthe woman King made, and unsurprisingly
for Hollywood, its executivesweren't scrambling to make a $50
(09:34):
million action epic about agroup of black women warriors, even
with Viola Davis starring andproducing. This army of Women starts
in 2015 with producer andwriter Maria Bello, who was instrumental
in getting this movie made.She traveled to the West African
nation of Benin, formerly theDahomey Kingdom, and while there
(09:56):
learned the story of theAgoji, also known as the Dahomey
Amazons or the Dahomey Mino,as she knew she wanted to tell their
story, but as a white woman,she also knew it wasn't her story
to tell. She noticed adistinct lack of women's stories
and history books whilestudying political science at Villanova
University in Pennsylvania,and when she started acting, she
(10:18):
also realized this lack offemale focused narratives also extended
well into Hollywood too. In1995, she saw Braveheart and knew
she wanted to make the femaleversion of Braveheart. On her regular
trips to Kenya, she learned ofthe Agoji warrior women who served
as the army for the Kingdom ofDahomey, an empire in West Africa
(10:40):
founded in the 17th century.Bello knew who she wanted for the
movie and decided to shoot hershot at the Skirball Cultural center
for the National Women'sHistory Museum's Women Making History
Awards in Los Angeles whilepresenting an award to Viola Davis
mentioning African warriors,female Braveheart and Viola Davis
(11:01):
being perfect for the part.That made the audience cheer and
got Davis's attention alongwith her producing partner and husband
Julius Tennant. KathySchulman, CEO and President of well
Entertainment, was anexecutive at STX Entertainment at
the time and tried to get themovie set up there where it was offered
for just $5 million. Followingher departure from STX in 2016, Shulman
(11:27):
returned to producing,pitching the movie around town with
Maria Bello, Viola Davis andJulius Tennant. Studios either wanted
to cast well known lightskinned black women, which felt historically
inaccurate to the creators, orthey didn't think the movie would
make enough money to justifythe budget it needed. The project
didn't yet have a script or adirector, but Davis, Tennant, Schulman
(11:51):
and Bellow met with HannahNingela, Sony Tristars, then Chief
and Nicole Brown, mingela'sthen senior VP at the studio. In
the summer of 2017, NicoleBrown would become the first black
woman to run a live actionlabel at a major motion picture studio
when Mingana left for aposition at bad robot. Within two
(12:11):
years, the woman king was oneof TriStar's top priorities when
Brown took over as CEO and themovie was able to secure E1 as a
co financier. Crucially forthe Woman King, in between their
first meeting with TriStar andthe studio's green light in 2020,
another film would come outand cement the decision to make a
(12:33):
movie about a nation of blackfemale warriors. And rarely can we
say that industry change ismade by Marvel Movies, but in this
case, it really was. BlackPanther came out in 2018, would go
on to gross $1.3 billionworldwide and been nominated for
several Academy Awards,including Best Picture, a feat unheard
(12:55):
of for comic book adaptationsat the time. And it also disproved
the Hollywood myth that movieswith black casts aren't wanted, needed
or indeed popular enough.Black Panther's elite team of women
fighters, the Dora Milaje,were inspired by the Agoji. As it
would transpire, the WomanKing would come out just two months
(13:15):
before Black Panther WakandaForever. And it would also lead to
the infamous BAFTA song aboutAngela Bassett doing the thing and
Viola Davis being my WomanKing. But thanks to Black Panther,
the green light was given forthe Woman King and so the hunt was
on for a director. Viola Davishad previously met Gina Prince Bythewood
(13:37):
in 2008, but she wasn't theoriginal choice for director. The
studio had their own unnamedchoices, but they either had other
things going on or feltintimidated by the subject. Gina
Prince Bythewood, who'dpreviously directed the Old Guard
for Netflix, became the firstblack woman to direct a major comic
book adaptation. She also hadthe idea to make a Braveheart style
(14:00):
epic which felt like a meetingof minds. She would also take influence
from Gladiator and the Last ofthe Mohicans. Once Prince Bythewood
was secured as a director, shegot onto task straight away, and
she prioritized women andpeople of color as department heads
when assembling the crew forthe five month shoot in South Africa.
(14:21):
These department headsincluded editor Teralyn Shropshire,
visual effects supervisor SaraBennett, costume designer Gersha
Phillips, production designerAkin Mackenzie, and cinematographer
Polly Morgan. BabalwaMshishelwa, a local South African
makeup artist, was hired to dothe makeup. Prince Bythewood wanted
(14:41):
her actors, many of whom hadexperienced being on film sets where
Stylists don't know how tostyle black hair to have a say in
the film's hair. RelatedOptions Hairstylist Louisa Anthony
was asked by the director tocreate short hairstyles, braids and
cool, practical looks for theactors to wear during fight scenes.
Anthony combined 500 years ofbraiding culture to create a look
(15:05):
that the audience wouldrecognize while also paying homage
to braiding styles of thepast. Each character's hairstyle
changes through the movie astheir arcs play out, and they even
included a scene of a Gozibraiding Nawi's hair, a sign of sisterhood
and bonding. It's these littlethings that not having black women
behind the scenes on thismovie might have likely never been
(15:28):
written, filmed or indeed lefton the cutting room floor. In historic
African braiding culture,women could use hair to symbolize
their wealth, social statusand whether or not they were married.
As Agojis rise through theranks, their hair gets more elaborate.
Naniska, as the highest incommand, has a braided mohawk to
fight and a relaxed braid forpadded scenes. Jamika Wilson was
(15:52):
Viola Davis personalhairstylist. Sergio Lopez Rivera
was Davis's personal makeupartist, and he collaborated with
Babalwa Michishelwa to createminimal makeup because these warriors
aren't going to be in front ofa mirror making themselves up for
battle. As well as intricatemakeup designs for the king's many
wives and prosthetic scarringto show how fierce these warriors
(16:15):
were, with each scar tellingits own story of each brutal fight,
with the actor showing theemotional scarring of being on the
front line of Dahomey's army.And for those fight scenes, they
needed intensive physicaltraining. Gina Prince Bythewood joined
them for a large portion ofthe torturous physical preparation
the actors underwent. Beforethe shoot, the cast spent four months
(16:38):
lifting weights with trainerGabriella McLean for 90 minutes every
day. After that, they trainedfor three and a half hours with stunt
coordinator Danny Hernandez,which included martial arts, running
and using swords and speed. BEas Clarissa Shields, a professional
boxer, served as Davis's modelfor strength, stance and focus during
(16:59):
workouts. Viola Davis once rana mile on the treadmill in 6 minutes,
23 seconds. But it wasn't justgoing to be physically exhausting
for these actors. It was alsogoing to be potentially mentally
and emotionally exhausting aswell. For the filming of Naniska's
rape scenes, Prince Boyd wouldreference Christine Blasey Ford's
(17:20):
testimony at Brett Kavanaugh'sSupreme Court nomination hearing
and asked Davis to read theRoxane Gay book Hunger, a memoir
about gay's own sexualassault. It was their intention for
the scenes to be filmed fromNaniska's perspective and for Naniska
to reclaim her power over herrapist later in the movie. Rounding
(17:41):
out the cast were Britishactors Lashana lynch and John Boyega
and Ugandan British actorSheila Atim. Lynch had signed on
to play Miss Honey in Matildathe Musical Thirst before signing
on to the Woman Key, and whileboth movies are wildly different,
the characters are bothfriendly, loving and a mentor to
the younger characters ofMatilda and Nawi. She finished filming
(18:05):
Matilda, then changed up herdiet and exercise regime for the
woman king. Sheila Atim playedAmenza, Naniska's close friend and
confidant. Atim ended uptaking her practice spear home and
knocking over glasses in herkitchen. She also wanted to understand
Amenza's spirituality and talkto a Voden expert in Benin. Foden,
(18:27):
which is a West Africantraditional religion, embraces death
and the afterlife. When Egoziis killed, Amenza takes her weapons
and her aggression. And thiswas based on her real life friendship
with Lynch. And of courseeveryone said that working with Viola
Davis was working with one ofthe most skilled, inspirational,
professional and brilliantactors in the business. Of course
(18:51):
making any period movie ishard. We weren't there after all.
And records can be sketchy,especially visual ones, especially
records about women. And justFYI, apologies for the butchering
of any pronunciation in thisepisode. I genuinely am really trying
my best to pronounce namescorrectly. Princeton professor Leonard
(19:11):
Wonchikon consulted as ahistorical advisor on the movie,
confirming that all officialleadership roles in Dahomey were
balanced between a man and awoman, hence having a king and a
woman. King Wanchikon, who hasAgoji in his extended family, had
been working on 51 biographiesof the warrior women, visiting the
(19:31):
places where they lived anddied and speaking to their descendants.
Representation and genderbalance in 19th century Dahomey was
head and shoulders above theso called developed world of the
20th century. Women wereraised in Dahomey to be independent,
brave and strong. Genderinclusivity also influenced the Agoge's
clothing and reference.Photographs taken between 1870-1890
(19:55):
were found, but these ended upbeing black women dressed up for
the World's Fair. It wasdiscovered through research that
the Agoji would naturally havea uniform and they'd also be spiritual,
carrying talismans with them.Each character in the movie had their
own unique symbol etched intocross belts. In real life, traders
like Santo Ferreira wouldvisit the kingdom and Present lavish
(20:17):
fabrics as gifts, and thesefabrics were used to make the outfits
for john boyega's king gezo.Some of his tunics are embellished
with crocodile, which was thetraditional motif of dahomey. The
agogee were first mentioned inwriting in 1729. However, the unit
may have been established Muchearlier, At the start of dahomey's
(20:38):
history, When a corps offemale elephant hunters Was established
by king huai badger during hisreign between 1645 to 1685. Queen
Hangbi may have alsointroduced them as her palace guard
during her brief reign asregent after her brother's death
in the early 18th century. Inany case, king gezo officially included
(21:00):
the agoji in dahomey's army inthe 19th century, after Dahomey's
male population haddrastically decreased As a result
of the kingdom's constantbattles, Giving women the chance
to take men's place on thebattlefield. King gezo was a totalitarian
king. He controlled almostevery part of dahomean social lives,
(21:20):
and both volunteers and forcedconscriptions Fueled his army, including
the agoji, Forcing enslavedpeople and captives from other villages
to become warriors fordahomey, Some as young as 8 to 10
years old. There's a lot inthis movie that is factual that we
know of. At least all ofdahomey's women warriors Were considered
(21:41):
third tier wives of the king.They lived in the royal palace Alongside
the king and his other wives,Inhabiting a largely women dominated
space. This is a movie firmlyfocusing on black women in these
positions of power andstrength and influence, Something
we rarely get to witness asviewers in mainstream hollywood.
Aside from eunuchs and theking himself, no men were allowed
(22:05):
in the palace after sunset.Celibacy was enforced, but they also
did have privileges notnormally associated with women at
the time, Such as protectionfrom men, A high social standing,
Supplies of luxuries liketobacco and alcohol, and they could
rise to positions of influencewithin the palace. They would have
held a higher status insociety Than other dahomean women,
(22:28):
but they were still subject tothe whims of king gazo. They were
not allowed to take lovers orbear children, and they had to be
totally faithful to the king.Due to dahomey's participation in
the slave trade, it's highlylikely that the agoge also had enslaved
people Cooking and cleaningfor them Alongside the royal servants,
who were probably alsoenslaved people. And this is the
(22:52):
elephant in the room that weneed to address. There's no way to
sugarcoat it, Even though thewoman king does try to. But While
it doesn't diminish theresponsibility. Of Europe and america.
For creating and driving thedemand. For the atlantic slave trade.
And the enslavement of peopleof color, African nations like the
kingdom of dahomey. Were alsoinvolved in the slave trade. And
(23:15):
dahomey itself was profitingfrom the sale of enslaved people.
From the 17th to 19thcenturies, the Dahomean army, including
the Agoji warriors, Conductedregular raids on neighboring peoples
and kingdoms. These raids werespecifically aimed. At capturing
people. To sell into slavery.Both domestically and overseas. Dahomey
(23:36):
developed sophisticatedsystems. For capturing, holding,
and trading enslaved people.The port of ouidah became one of
the major slave trading pointsin west Africa. By the 18th century,
the slave trade had becomeDahomey's primary source of wealth.
The kingdom received europeangoods, including firearms, in exchange
for enslaved people, whichhelped maintain their military dominance.
(24:00):
The slave trade was centrallycontrolled by the monarchy. The king
held a monopoly on the trade.And all transactions had to go through
royal channels. Though kingGezo did at one point Explore palm
oil production. As analternative source of revenue, as
naniska suggests in the movie,it proved far less lucrative, and
the king soon resumedDahomey's participation in the slave
(24:23):
trade. They developedrelationships with European traders,
Particularly Portuguese andbrazilian merchants, as is also depicted
in the movie between the oyoand the Portuguese slave merchants.
The trade was so integral tothe Dahomey economy. That when britain
pressured them to end theirinvolvement in the 1840s and 50s,
the kingdom initially resistedstrongly. Not that the British government
(24:47):
had ended the slave tradealtruistically itself, it has to
be said. But the slave tradeonly ended. When France colonised
the region in the 1890s. Andeven then, after a brutal war lasting
seven weeks. And killingbetween 2 to 4,000 Dahomean soldiers,
both men and women, it's saidthat just 50 or 60 agoji remained
(25:07):
ready for battle. After thefrench colonization of dahomey, when
it became known as Frenchdahomey. And the French government
then outlawed. The capture andsale of enslaved people. Historical
estimates suggest that dahomeymay have supplied. Hundreds of thousands
of people. Into the Atlanticslave trade. Over the course of its
involvement. And unlike JohnBoyega's depiction in the movie,
(25:29):
the real king gazo was anenthusiastic participant in the slave
trade. And did not want tostop. King Gazo controlled the agoji,
and so they were alsocomplicit in the slave trade. Now,
it is important to note atthis point. That history, as I've
said, Is written by thevictors, and it's highly likely that
there was an anti slaverymovement in Dahomey. It's also likely
(25:52):
that the trade wasn't aslucrative for the kingdom as records
state, because the records areeasily skewed by the racism of the
time. And most of the recordswere written by European colonizers,
who would, of course, paintthemselves in the best possible light
and attempt to paint theAfrican people as quote unquote savages.
This movie is set specificallyin 1823, at the time of dahomeans
(26:17):
wanting liberation from theOyo empire To form their own economic
dependence. The movie is avery small period of time in this
history of dahomey, but theOyo empire heavily taxed Dahomey
for goods and services.Dahomey really did break free of
oyo's control in 1823. Themovie also includes some fictionalized
(26:39):
characters or characters Basedon real people who didn't exist at
the same time. The real Nawiwas the last known surviving Agoji
with battlefield experience.Nawi died in 1979 at over 100 years
of age. Agoji traditionscontinued long after Dahomey's fall,
With descendants of the Agojisharing stories about their ancestors.
(27:01):
When actress Lupita Nyong'ovisited Benin for a 2019 documentary
called Warrior women withLupita Nyong'o, she met a woman identified
by locals as an agogee who'dbeen trained by older warriors as
a child and kept hidden fordecades. At one point, Lupita Nyong'o
was attached to play Nawi, andNyong'o also played former Dora Milaje,
(27:23):
now international spy forWakanda nakia, in black panther.
Nyong'o dropped out of therole early on in process. Coincidentally,
after fronting thedocumentary, and after hearing the
stories of ancestors of peoplecaptured and enslaved because of
dahomey's participation in theslave trade, she felt uncomfortable
with the tribe's legacy.Violence. The character of Nawi would
(27:46):
be rewritten younger, and TuzoMbedu would be cast instead. Mbedu
in her first major film roleafter starring in Barry Jenkins series
the underground railroadAlongside co star Sheila Atim, and
as her character, is basicallygiven to the king for being insolent
and refusing to take part inan arranged marriage. She ends up
training to be an Agoji andlearns of her biological mother.
(28:09):
It was a scene that wasincredibly personal to director Gina
Prince bythewood, who washerself adopted as a child, and it
consisted of dialogue shelonged to hear from her own biological
mother. Naniska was likelyinspired by an Agoji teenage recruit
of the same name whose fierceexecution of a prisoner was recorded
by a French naval officer in1889, but also partially based on
(28:35):
Ser Dong Hong Bae, one of themost well known leaders of the Agoji,
leading the warriors in 1851to obtain slaves from the Egber people
for the Dahomey slave trade.She wasn't mentioned in the Franco
Dahomey war, so chances areshe died or retired beforehand. In
1851, British Navy Commanderand Royal Geographical Society member
(28:57):
Frederick Edwin Forbes bookDahomey and the Dahomens featured
a hand drawn painting ofSedong Hong BAE in her uniform, carrying
on the skid and the severedhead of an African captive. Forbes
visited the dahomey kingdombetween 1849-1850 with the goal of
persuading King Gezo to put anend to the Atlantic slave trade.
(29:18):
The character of Santo Pereirawas loosely inspired by Francisco
Felix de Souza, a Brazilianslave trader who was an ally of King
Gezo and became an importantfigure in the proliferation and continuation
of the Dahomey slave trade.But even filming the movie had its
difficulties, mostly thanks tothe COVID 19 pandemic which struck
(29:40):
the cast and crew as they werefilming in cape town in November
2021. Production ended uptemporarily shutting down for several
weeks as infected peoplecovered, resuming in January 2022
with new stricter COVIDprotocols in place. Outdoor scenes
with 300 to 400 backgroundactors were limited to no more than
150. The actors playing theAgoji were quarantined in a hotel,
(30:05):
as were the stunt performers.An elaborate 11 day battle sequence
with hundreds of actors andstunt people had to be rescheduled
and re rehearsed after theinterruption. Because of the controversy
surrounding the accuracy ofthe story of the Woman King, several
news outlets published storiescomplaining this led to the American
Descendants of Slavery orADOs, calling to boycott the movie,
(30:29):
arguing it glorified a nationresponsible for brutality against
its descendants. Historiansweighed in viewing their concerns.
The social media hashtagBoycott Womanking trended for days
as the debate raged on withothers defending the uplifting narrative
of powerful dark skinned blackwomen, including its star Viola Davis
(30:50):
and director Gina PrinceBythewood on claims the movie was
fictionalized, Davis respondedthat it had to be. It was a movie,
it was there to entertain andif people wanted further education,
the movie was a jumping pointfor that. And speaking of jumping
points, it's time to segueinto the obligatory Keanu reference
of this episode, and if youdon't know what that is, it's where
(31:13):
I link the movie that I'mfeaturing with Keanu Reeves. As it
turns out, it is prettydifficult to link Keanu Reeves to
the Woman King. He's not awoman king, but he is a respectful
king towards women and that isthe easiest way for me to link Keanu
to the Woman King. As I alwayssay, all men should be more like
Keanu Reeves and Keanu Reevesis a respectful king. Now, although
(31:37):
there is a trailer that uses aBeyonce track, there are no Beyonce
songs on the officialsoundtrack. Composer Terence Blanchard,
who collaborated with the 9Voice Vox Noir ensemble in his opera
Fire Shut Up In My Bones,recruited them again for the score
for the Woman king. They spentfive days recording with the 78 member
(31:59):
Royal Scottish NationalOrchestra in Glasgow with a choir
led by Tezier Kwateng, aGhanaian American mezzo soprano.
The movie also features threechant and dance numbers by South
African composer Lebo M, whoalso sang the opening Zulu chant
of the Circle of Life from theLion King. Jesse Wilson, Jeremy Letito
(32:20):
and Angelique Kijo wrote andperformed the original song Keep
Rising which was featured inthe end credits. Angelique Kijo has
a small role in the movie asthe Muon. So despite all of the controversy
and all of the boycotting, theWoman King released on 16 September
2022, opening at number one atthe domestic box office with not
(32:43):
a great deal of competition.On its second week, Don't Worry Darling
released and went to numberone with the Woman King dropping
to second just above a rerelease of Avatar in third. In its
third week it dropped to thirdand it stayed in the top ten for
seven weeks on its $50 millionbudget. The Woman King made $67.3
(33:03):
million domestically in the USand $30.2 million internationally
for a total worldwide gross of$97.6 million. It has a 94% to Rotten
Tomatoes with all out praisefor Viola Davis as well as the breakout
performance by Tusso Bedou.But as I've mentioned, there is also
(33:24):
a lot of criticism for thismovie and honestly much of it feels
undeserved. Were the samepeople calling out Braveheart for
its historical inaccuracies?Or Titanic or Catch Me if youf can
or any other Hollywood moviebased on a true story. I mean Titanic
just gets the whole two peoplecould fit on that door and every
other inaccuracy seems to beforgotten about. It does feel like
(33:46):
a lot of the criticism forinaccuracy is unfairly held at the
Woman King. It's almost as ifblack women need to work 10 times
as hard to get a sliver of theamount of recognition and reward.
Right. Speaking of, while thewoman King received three nominations
at the baftas and one at thegolden Globes, the academy awards
(34:09):
seemed to shut the movie outcompletely. While Viola Davis was
being lauded for herincredible performance as Naniska,
receiving a bafta nominationand a golden globe nomination for
best actress, as well as ascreen actors guild award nomination
and a critics choice awardnomination, the academy awards seemed
completely ignorant of themovie. Director Gina Prince Bythewood
(34:32):
would state in an interviewwith new Hollywood reporter that,
quote, the woman King wasn'tsnubbed. A snub is if it missed out
on a category or two. The filmwas not nominated for one single
craft. Not one singleextraordinary performance was recognized.
And when has that happened?For a successful film that hit all
the so called markers, it'snot a snub. It's a reflection of
(34:53):
where the academy stands andthe constant chasm between black
excellence and recognition.And sadly, this is not just an issue
in Hollywood but in everyindustry. I'm going to use a Dr.
King quote because it's soapropos in that he spoke on the lie
of our inferiority accepted astruth in the society dominating us.
(35:13):
As I moved through this awardsseason, I was struck by the academy
members who simply didn't wantto see the film. People thought it
was a compliment at some ofour screenings to tell me they had
to be dragged there becausethey didn't think it was a film for
them or spoke ofcontemporaries who couldn't be convinced
to come with them and being sosurprised by how much they loved
the film. To hear that overand over, it's tough to stomach.
(35:36):
I don't approach any film likethat. I saw everything everywhere
all at once. And top maverickbecause I heard they were really
good. When you hear that, yougo to the movie or you look at the
trailer and say, I want to seethat. That looks good to me. We black
women do not get that samegrace. So the question we need to
ask is why is it so hard torelate to the work of your black
(35:57):
peers? What is this inabilityof academy voters to see black women
and their humanity and theirheroism as relatable to themselves,
unquote. I'm going to actuallylink the complete article of Gina
Prince bytheword's interviewwith the Hollywood Reporter because
it is a fascinating interviewand also highlights, I think, a lot
(36:19):
of the struggles that blackwomen still face in Hollywood and
black people in general stillface in Hollywood that despite Them
making excellent movies likethis one that there was so much apathy
around it from people inHollywood, like, are they okay? In
2022, John Boyega pitched asequel of sorts to the Woman King,
(36:40):
which would show King Gezo asa younger man to show the unfavorable
side of Dahomey's history andbasically depict him as the villain.
Having a movie where Boyega'sking is a more antagonistic character
worked to raise the historicalinaccuracies of the Woman King, but
it would at least go some waytowards presenting a more accurate
depiction of historicalevents. But so far, no sequel or
(37:03):
indeed prequel is forthcoming.Regardless of the criticisms about
inaccuracies, I see one thingand one thing only when I watch this
movie. Empowered black womenin a movie that places those women
in positions that mainstreamHollywood never really has. For all
Black Panther did, the focuswas on T'Challa and the wonderful
(37:26):
late Chadwick Boseman. Womenwere present in Black Panther and
women were highlighted, butnot like this. And here's the thing.
If you want a history lesson,go to a history class. This movie
has its detractors, but it dida great job telling a story that
we would never have otherwiseknown of. I'm going to say it again.
History is told by thevictors. Why would colonizing nations
(37:50):
know of female warrior tribes?You sometimes have to have a little
dramatic license in movieslike this, and that's okay. The horrors
of the slave trade are there.They're just not as explicit as they
were in real life. When askedabout the historical accuracy of
the Woman King, in aninterview with Buzzfeed, John Boyega
said, quote, I think this filmhas a very nuanced take on that time
(38:13):
in history. It's a movie aboutself reflection, It's a movie about
trauma, and it's a movie aboutpain. As creators, we are here to
shine a light on the realitiesof the world. We're not necessarily
always here to preach a veryaccepting message. Art can live in
a moral or immoral space andcould sometimes just be about shining
a light on human nature,history, and the reality of that
(38:36):
conflict. So for me, includingthat just shows that there is a way
in which we can embracestories that accept the fact that
humanity is not perfect whilealso being entertaining and something
you can learn from, unquote.One thing that this movie does very
well in its narrativesurrounding enslaved people is how
despicable it is and also howeasy it seems to be for these people
(39:00):
to profit off selling Africansto the highest bidder. It made me
Feel very uncomfortable as tothe ease of those trades. But I guess
that's the point. By thistime, the slave trade was the primary
source of income for manypeople, both colonizing nations and
African nations. If the moviehad gone deeper into the accuracy
of the Atlantic slave trade, Ifeel like the movie just wouldn't
(39:23):
work as what it's supposed tobe. A story of empowerment, of women's
stories, of black excellence,of black women's excellence. It would
be deeply uncomfortable. I getthat's the point. But in doing so,
you're taking away from thewomen at the center of this story
who are not enslaved. Africanhistory is complex. The history of
slavery is complex. Butfundamentally, without colonizing
(39:46):
nations in Europe and Americadriving the slave trade, African
nations wouldn't also becomplicit in it and profiting off
of it. So I guess what I'mbasically saying is white people
are still at fault. And tohave a period movie starring primarily
dark skinned black peoplewhere the lead actors aren't just
playing slaves is, quitefrankly, something we need more of
(40:08):
from Hollywood movies. And I'mspeaking as a very white, very British
millennial. I would have lovedto have seen this growing up. I would
have wanted to see thesestories. To have this movie made
so incredibly by a team ofprimarily women and women of color
must be incrediblyinspirational for black women and
girls. Something made for thediaspora. And bringing together a
(40:31):
team of people from differentAfrican backgrounds being filmed
in South Africa, it makes yourealize how starved we all are of
stories from Africa, ofHollywood movies set in Africa, of
movies featuring Africanswhere there's no white savior. There
is a mixed race guy. But whilehe, quote unquote, saves Nawi by
buying her, she's then free togo back to Dahomey without him, despite
(40:54):
being promised a life inBritain. But to be honest, I can
imagine 19th century Britainnot being the most welcoming place
for a young black woman. Andwhile I wasn't sure about a shark
tooth staying under a baby'sskin for the best part of 18 years,
I did find a story about asurfer who was attacked while surfing
when he was 13. And a piece ofwhatever it was, his tooth, was embedded
(41:18):
in his foot for almost 20years. His immune system had started
to break it down, but it gotextracted and the now adult Jeff
Weakley went to the FloridaMuseum of Natural History to find
out what the sliver of toothwas. They found out it was in fact
a shark's tooth. A black tipshark, to be precise. Anyway, it's
really the only part of themovie I question and narratively
(41:40):
it is the only way we can knowthat Nawi is Naniska's child because
there was no DNA testing in1823, but I still think a baby's
immune system would haveexpelled that tooth. I don't know
if you are a scientist and youknow of baby biology, let me know
what you think about the sharktooth, but it does just seem a little
(42:01):
bit far fetched to me. Anyway,minor gripes aside, and my gripes
with this movie are sounbelievably minor. I love this movie
so much. I love Viola Davis. Ithink she is so badass and I always
thought she was such anincredible dramatic actor and then
I find out she is and she cankick ass as well. Honestly, such
(42:22):
a powerhouse of a woman and Ihave loved Lashana lynch since Captain
Marvel and I will still go tobat for that movie and for Maria
Rambeau, who was a charactergone far too soon in my opinion.
Lashana lynch is such anincredible talent. The whole cast
are perfect and I hope we seethe rise of Tusso and Bedu because
this was her first major movierole and she holds her own against
(42:44):
Viola freaking Davis. And Ilove how Naniska learns and grows
from her relationship withNawi just as Nawi grows from hers
with Naniska. It is abeautiful movie about love and friendship
and sisterhood and kickingass. I am so sad this movie didn't
get any Academy Awardsrecognition and considering the Academy
(43:05):
has been trying to stave offthe Oscars so white controversy,
you'd think this would be theperfect movie to uplift and highlight.
There is no better movie tokick off women's history than than
the incredible, mostly truestory of the Agoji. To be a warrior,
you must kill your tears. No.To be a warrior you learn to fight
(43:25):
together, to go back for thefallen, to surround your sisters
with love, to grieve yourlosses and forgive the innocent.
To be a warrior, you find theman who wronged you and you make
him remember exactly who youare. They do not know the evil that
is coming. Turn your back andsee how true my aim is. Thank you
(43:47):
for listening. As always, Iwould love to hear your thoughts
on the Woman King and thankyou for your continued support of
this podcast. If you want toget involved and help this podcast
grow, you can leave a ratingor review wherever you found this
podcast. You can find me atverbal diorama all across social
media. You can like post, youcan follow me, you can share posts,
(44:08):
you can comment on posts thatall helps with visibility. Or you
could also tell your friendsand family about this podcast and
about this episode. And if youlike this episode on the Woman King,
you might also like adifferent movie, but also a movie
purely focused on theexcellence of Black women. A couple
of years ago I did an episodeon the movie Hidden Figures, which
(44:32):
again was a movie that Ididn't know anything about these
amazing Black femalemathematicians who worked at NASA.
Now again, Hidden Figures isnot completely accurate to the experience
of these women who worked atNASA in the 60s. However, it is an
incredible movie with someincredible performances in it and
(44:52):
I feel like if you wanted tohave a Black female excellence double
bill, you couldn't go wrongwith the Woman King and Hidden Figures.
My episode on Hidden figuresis episode 204. So the next episode
of this podcast we are goingfrom the Woman King to the Virgin
Queen, Queen Elizabeth ii. Thelate Queen of the UK isn't a direct
(45:16):
descendant of Queen Elizabeththe First, but they share a name,
long reigns and lastinglegacies. Elizabeth I ruled over
England, Wales and Irelandfrom 1558 until her death in 1603.
She successfully navigatedpolitical turmoil, promoted the arts
and ensured a powerful Navy.In 1998, a lavish adaptation of Elizabeth's
(45:41):
early years introduced theworld to the powerhouse that is Cate
Blanchett. And so the nextepisode of this podcast is going
to be on the history andlegacy of Elizabeth from 1998 and
I hope you will join me forthat. Now, as I always say, it is
absolutely free to listen tothis podcast. There will never be
(46:01):
any charge to listen to thispodcast, but unfortunately it is
not free to make a podcast andI do rely on some incredible people
to help me with this podcast.You are under no obligation to join
them. However, if you getvalue out of what I do and you want
to support an indie creatorwho does everything by herself, then
there are two ways you couldsupport Verbal Diorama. The first
(46:23):
way is going toverbaldiorama.com tips and the second
is by going toverbaldiorama.competreon and you
can join the amazing patronsof this podcast. They are Claudia,
Simon, Laurel, Derek, Kat,Andy, Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott,
Brendan, Lisa, Sam, Jack,Dave, Stuart, Nicholas, Zoe, Kev,
(46:44):
Pete, Heather, Danny, Ali,Stu, Brett, Philip M, Michelle, Zenos,
Sean, Rhino, Philip K, Adam,Elaine, Kyle and Aaron. If you want
to get in touch, you can emailverbaldioramail.com or you can go
to the websiteverbaldiorama.com and fill out the
little contact form where youcan say hi. You can give feedback
(47:05):
or suggestions. You can alsofind work that I do@filmstories.co.uk
too. And finally.
Hi, everyone. I'm Em. Welcometo verbal diorama, episode 290 of
the Woman King. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't that always
obeys Igozie. Welcome toVerbal Diorama. Whether you are a
brand new listener to thispodcast or whether you're a regular
returning listener who'scoming back, thank you for being
(03:01):
here. Thank you for choosingto listen to this podcast. I am so
happy to have you here for thehistory and Legacy of the Woman King.
It is Women's History Monthand this weekend is International
Women's Day, and we rarely seewomen's stories in history. And history
being written by the victor issomething I'll be mentioning a lot
(03:22):
today because the role ofwomen in society has meant that the
men writing history haverarely seen fit to tell many stories
of women. But thankfully, wehave some incredible stories now
coming to light. This month onVerbal Diorama celebrates women from
all walks of life, fromwarriors to queens to single mothers
(03:43):
and women in sport. But asalways, a huge thank you to everyone
who listens to this podcastand has continued to listen to and
support this podcast over thelast six years and now 290 episodes.
This podcast recentlycelebrated its sixth birthday and
it was just such a wonderful,joyous celebration of animated episodes.
(04:05):
Huge thank you to everyone foryour continued support of this podcast.
It genuinely means so much tome to be still doing this podcast
and to be able to talk aboutmovies like the Woman King, which
Cards on the table. Iabsolutely love this movie. So it
is a movie that I've beenwanting to talk about for quite some
time, but I've been saving itfor this month in particular because
(04:29):
it is Women's History Month.International Women's Day is right
around the corner as of therelease of this episode, and it is
a day and A month for us toremember the stories of the women
who came before us, whoinspire us, and who shape the world
for women and girls today. Asa woman in podcasting who's inspired
by women from all walks oflife, all cultures and all professions,
(04:52):
it made complete sense to meto focus on women in film. And not
only women in film, but truestories of women put to film. There
was only one movie I wanted tostart this month off with, A movie
that I found incrediblyinspiring and empowering, and a movie
that, unsurprisingly, had anepic battle of its own to get made
(05:12):
in the first place. Here isthe trailer for the Woman King.
(07:43):
The Kingdom of dahomey. WestAfrica 1823 having sworn to risk
life and limb to protect theland, the formidable General Naniska
and the Agoji, the elite allfemale military regiment of King
Gezo, keep the threat of theOyo empire at bay. As the unbroken
sisterhood trains a newgeneration of fearless warriors,
(08:04):
their battle scarred leaderseeks alternative sources of profit.
However, Gezo's participationin the slave trade paves the way
for the inevitable violentconfrontation between the Agoji,
the Oyo and the slavers thatwill compromise the kingdom's future,
let's as always, run throughthe cast of this movie. We have Viola
(08:24):
Davis as General Naniska, TusoMbedou as Nawi, Lashana lynch as
Egozi, Sheila Atim as AmenzaHero Fine Tiffin as Santo Ferreira,
John Boyega as King Gezo,Jordan Bolger as Malik and Jimmy
Odokoya as General Oba. TheWoman king has a screenplay by Dana
(08:49):
Stevens, a story by MariaBello and Dana Stevens and was directed
by Gina Prince bythewood ViolaDavis, the only African American
actor to achieve the triplecrown of acting and the youngest
person to achieve it all tooan Oscar for Fences an Emmy for How
to Get Away with murder andnot one but two Tonys for fences
(09:12):
and King Hedley II. Vona Davisalso completed her EGOT in 2023,
winning a Grammy for BestAudiobook Narration and Storytelling
Recording for herautobiography Finding Me. It took
a literal army of women to getthe woman King made, and unsurprisingly
for Hollywood, its executivesweren't scrambling to make a $50
(09:34):
million action epic about agroup of black women warriors, even
with Viola Davis starring andproducing. This army of Women starts
in 2015 with producer andwriter Maria Bello, who was instrumental
in getting this movie made.She traveled to the West African
nation of Benin, formerly theDahomey Kingdom, and while there
(09:56):
learned the story of theAgoji, also known as the Dahomey
Amazons or the Dahomey Mino,as she knew she wanted to tell their
story, but as a white woman,she also knew it wasn't her story
to tell. She noticed adistinct lack of women's stories
and history books whilestudying political science at Villanova
University in Pennsylvania,and when she started acting, she
(10:18):
also realized this lack offemale focused narratives also extended
well into Hollywood too. In1995, she saw Braveheart and knew
she wanted to make the femaleversion of Braveheart. On her regular
trips to Kenya, she learned ofthe Agoji warrior women who served
as the army for the Kingdom ofDahomey, an empire in West Africa
(10:40):
founded in the 17th century.Bello knew who she wanted for the
movie and decided to shoot hershot at the Skirball Cultural center
for the National Women'sHistory Museum's Women Making History
Awards in Los Angeles whilepresenting an award to Viola Davis
mentioning African warriors,female Braveheart and Viola Davis
(11:01):
being perfect for the part.That made the audience cheer and
got Davis's attention alongwith her producing partner and husband
Julius Tennant. KathySchulman, CEO and President of well
Entertainment, was anexecutive at STX Entertainment at
the time and tried to get themovie set up there where it was offered
for just $5 million. Followingher departure from STX in 2016, Shulman
(11:27):
returned to producing,pitching the movie around town with
Maria Bello, Viola Davis andJulius Tennant. Studios either wanted
to cast well known lightskinned black women, which felt historically
inaccurate to the creators, orthey didn't think the movie would
make enough money to justifythe budget it needed. The project
didn't yet have a script or adirector, but Davis, Tennant, Schulman
(11:51):
and Bellow met with HannahNingela, Sony Tristars, then Chief
and Nicole Brown, mingela'sthen senior VP at the studio. In
the summer of 2017, NicoleBrown would become the first black
woman to run a live actionlabel at a major motion picture studio
when Mingana left for aposition at bad robot. Within two
(12:11):
years, the woman king was oneof TriStar's top priorities when
Brown took over as CEO and themovie was able to secure E1 as a
co financier. Crucially forthe Woman King, in between their
first meeting with TriStar andthe studio's green light in 2020,
another film would come outand cement the decision to make a
(12:33):
movie about a nation of blackfemale warriors. And rarely can we
say that industry change ismade by Marvel Movies, but in this
case, it really was. BlackPanther came out in 2018, would go
on to gross $1.3 billionworldwide and been nominated for
several Academy Awards,including Best Picture, a feat unheard
(12:55):
of for comic book adaptationsat the time. And it also disproved
the Hollywood myth that movieswith black casts aren't wanted, needed
or indeed popular enough.Black Panther's elite team of women
fighters, the Dora Milaje,were inspired by the Agoji. As it
would transpire, the WomanKing would come out just two months
(13:15):
before Black Panther WakandaForever. And it would also lead to
the infamous BAFTA song aboutAngela Bassett doing the thing and
Viola Davis being my WomanKing. But thanks to Black Panther,
the green light was given forthe Woman King and so the hunt was
on for a director. Viola Davishad previously met Gina Prince Bythewood
(13:37):
in 2008, but she wasn't theoriginal choice for director. The
studio had their own unnamedchoices, but they either had other
things going on or feltintimidated by the subject. Gina
Prince Bythewood, who'dpreviously directed the Old Guard
for Netflix, became the firstblack woman to direct a major comic
book adaptation. She also hadthe idea to make a Braveheart style
(14:00):
epic which felt like a meetingof minds. She would also take influence
from Gladiator and the Last ofthe Mohicans. Once Prince Bythewood
was secured as a director, shegot onto task straight away, and
she prioritized women andpeople of color as department heads
when assembling the crew forthe five month shoot in South Africa.
(14:21):
These department headsincluded editor Teralyn Shropshire,
visual effects supervisor SaraBennett, costume designer Gersha
Phillips, production designerAkin Mackenzie, and cinematographer
Polly Morgan. BabalwaMshishelwa, a local South African
makeup artist, was hired to dothe makeup. Prince Bythewood wanted
(14:41):
her actors, many of whom hadexperienced being on film sets where
Stylists don't know how tostyle black hair to have a say in
the film's hair. RelatedOptions Hairstylist Louisa Anthony
was asked by the director tocreate short hairstyles, braids and
cool, practical looks for theactors to wear during fight scenes.
Anthony combined 500 years ofbraiding culture to create a look
(15:05):
that the audience wouldrecognize while also paying homage
to braiding styles of thepast. Each character's hairstyle
changes through the movie astheir arcs play out, and they even
included a scene of a Gozibraiding Nawi's hair, a sign of sisterhood
and bonding. It's these littlethings that not having black women
behind the scenes on thismovie might have likely never been
(15:28):
written, filmed or indeed lefton the cutting room floor. In historic
African braiding culture,women could use hair to symbolize
their wealth, social statusand whether or not they were married.
As Agojis rise through theranks, their hair gets more elaborate.
Naniska, as the highest incommand, has a braided mohawk to
fight and a relaxed braid forpadded scenes. Jamika Wilson was
(15:52):
Viola Davis personalhairstylist. Sergio Lopez Rivera
was Davis's personal makeupartist, and he collaborated with
Babalwa Michishelwa to createminimal makeup because these warriors
aren't going to be in front ofa mirror making themselves up for
battle. As well as intricatemakeup designs for the king's many
wives and prosthetic scarringto show how fierce these warriors
(16:15):
were, with each scar tellingits own story of each brutal fight,
with the actor showing theemotional scarring of being on the
front line of Dahomey's army.And for those fight scenes, they
needed intensive physicaltraining. Gina Prince Bythewood joined
them for a large portion ofthe torturous physical preparation
the actors underwent. Beforethe shoot, the cast spent four months
(16:38):
lifting weights with trainerGabriella McLean for 90 minutes every
day. After that, they trainedfor three and a half hours with stunt
coordinator Danny Hernandez,which included martial arts, running
and using swords and speed. BEas Clarissa Shields, a professional
boxer, served as Davis's modelfor strength, stance and focus during
(16:59):
workouts. Viola Davis once rana mile on the treadmill in 6 minutes,
23 seconds. But it wasn't justgoing to be physically exhausting
for these actors. It was alsogoing to be potentially mentally
and emotionally exhausting aswell. For the filming of Naniska's
rape scenes, Prince Boyd wouldreference Christine Blasey Ford's
(17:20):
testimony at Brett Kavanaugh'sSupreme Court nomination hearing
and asked Davis to read theRoxane Gay book Hunger, a memoir
about gay's own sexualassault. It was their intention for
the scenes to be filmed fromNaniska's perspective and for Naniska
to reclaim her power over herrapist later in the movie. Rounding
(17:41):
out the cast were Britishactors Lashana lynch and John Boyega
and Ugandan British actorSheila Atim. Lynch had signed on
to play Miss Honey in Matildathe Musical Thirst before signing
on to the Woman Key, and whileboth movies are wildly different,
the characters are bothfriendly, loving and a mentor to
the younger characters ofMatilda and Nawi. She finished filming
(18:05):
Matilda, then changed up herdiet and exercise regime for the
woman king. Sheila Atim playedAmenza, Naniska's close friend and
confidant. Atim ended uptaking her practice spear home and
knocking over glasses in herkitchen. She also wanted to understand
Amenza's spirituality and talkto a Voden expert in Benin. Foden,
(18:27):
which is a West Africantraditional religion, embraces death
and the afterlife. When Egoziis killed, Amenza takes her weapons
and her aggression. And thiswas based on her real life friendship
with Lynch. And of courseeveryone said that working with Viola
Davis was working with one ofthe most skilled, inspirational,
professional and brilliantactors in the business. Of course
(18:51):
making any period movie ishard. We weren't there after all.
And records can be sketchy,especially visual ones, especially
records about women. And justFYI, apologies for the butchering
of any pronunciation in thisepisode. I genuinely am really trying
my best to pronounce namescorrectly. Princeton professor Leonard
(19:11):
Wonchikon consulted as ahistorical advisor on the movie,
confirming that all officialleadership roles in Dahomey were
balanced between a man and awoman, hence having a king and a
woman. King Wanchikon, who hasAgoji in his extended family, had
been working on 51 biographiesof the warrior women, visiting the
(19:31):
places where they lived anddied and speaking to their descendants.
Representation and genderbalance in 19th century Dahomey was
head and shoulders above theso called developed world of the
20th century. Women wereraised in Dahomey to be independent,
brave and strong. Genderinclusivity also influenced the Agoge's
clothing and reference.Photographs taken between 1870-1890
(19:55):
were found, but these ended upbeing black women dressed up for
the World's Fair. It wasdiscovered through research that
the Agoji would naturally havea uniform and they'd also be spiritual,
carrying talismans with them.Each character in the movie had their
own unique symbol etched intocross belts. In real life, traders
like Santo Ferreira wouldvisit the kingdom and Present lavish
(20:17):
fabrics as gifts, and thesefabrics were used to make the outfits
for john boyega's king gezo.Some of his tunics are embellished
with crocodile, which was thetraditional motif of dahomey. The
agogee were first mentioned inwriting in 1729. However, the unit
may have been established Muchearlier, At the start of dahomey's
(20:38):
history, When a corps offemale elephant hunters Was established
by king huai badger during hisreign between 1645 to 1685. Queen
Hangbi may have alsointroduced them as her palace guard
during her brief reign asregent after her brother's death
in the early 18th century. Inany case, king gezo officially included
(21:00):
the agoji in dahomey's army inthe 19th century, after Dahomey's
male population haddrastically decreased As a result
of the kingdom's constantbattles, Giving women the chance
to take men's place on thebattlefield. King gezo was a totalitarian
king. He controlled almostevery part of dahomean social lives,
(21:20):
and both volunteers and forcedconscriptions Fueled his army, including
the agoji, Forcing enslavedpeople and captives from other villages
to become warriors fordahomey, Some as young as 8 to 10
years old. There's a lot inthis movie that is factual that we
know of. At least all ofdahomey's women warriors Were considered
(21:41):
third tier wives of the king.They lived in the royal palace Alongside
the king and his other wives,Inhabiting a largely women dominated
space. This is a movie firmlyfocusing on black women in these
positions of power andstrength and influence, Something
we rarely get to witness asviewers in mainstream hollywood.
Aside from eunuchs and theking himself, no men were allowed
(22:05):
in the palace after sunset.Celibacy was enforced, but they also
did have privileges notnormally associated with women at
the time, Such as protectionfrom men, A high social standing,
Supplies of luxuries liketobacco and alcohol, and they could
rise to positions of influencewithin the palace. They would have
held a higher status insociety Than other dahomean women,
(22:28):
but they were still subject tothe whims of king gazo. They were
not allowed to take lovers orbear children, and they had to be
totally faithful to the king.Due to dahomey's participation in
the slave trade, it's highlylikely that the agoge also had enslaved
people Cooking and cleaningfor them Alongside the royal servants,
who were probably alsoenslaved people. And this is the
(22:52):
elephant in the room that weneed to address. There's no way to
sugarcoat it, Even though thewoman king does try to. But While
it doesn't diminish theresponsibility. Of Europe and america.
For creating and driving thedemand. For the atlantic slave trade.
And the enslavement of peopleof color, African nations like the
kingdom of dahomey. Were alsoinvolved in the slave trade. And
(23:15):
dahomey itself was profitingfrom the sale of enslaved people.
From the 17th to 19thcenturies, the Dahomean army, including
the Agoji warriors, Conductedregular raids on neighboring peoples
and kingdoms. These raids werespecifically aimed. At capturing
people. To sell into slavery.Both domestically and overseas. Dahomey
(23:36):
developed sophisticatedsystems. For capturing, holding,
and trading enslaved people.The port of ouidah became one of
the major slave trading pointsin west Africa. By the 18th century,
the slave trade had becomeDahomey's primary source of wealth.
The kingdom received europeangoods, including firearms, in exchange
for enslaved people, whichhelped maintain their military dominance.
(24:00):
The slave trade was centrallycontrolled by the monarchy. The king
held a monopoly on the trade.And all transactions had to go through
royal channels. Though kingGezo did at one point Explore palm
oil production. As analternative source of revenue, as
naniska suggests in the movie,it proved far less lucrative, and
the king soon resumedDahomey's participation in the slave
(24:23):
trade. They developedrelationships with European traders,
Particularly Portuguese andbrazilian merchants, as is also depicted
in the movie between the oyoand the Portuguese slave merchants.
The trade was so integral tothe Dahomey economy. That when britain
pressured them to end theirinvolvement in the 1840s and 50s,
the kingdom initially resistedstrongly. Not that the British government
(24:47):
had ended the slave tradealtruistically itself, it has to
be said. But the slave tradeonly ended. When France colonised
the region in the 1890s. Andeven then, after a brutal war lasting
seven weeks. And killingbetween 2 to 4,000 Dahomean soldiers,
both men and women, it's saidthat just 50 or 60 agoji remained
(25:07):
ready for battle. After thefrench colonization of dahomey, when
it became known as Frenchdahomey. And the French government
then outlawed. The capture andsale of enslaved people. Historical
estimates suggest that dahomeymay have supplied. Hundreds of thousands
of people. Into the Atlanticslave trade. Over the course of its
involvement. And unlike JohnBoyega's depiction in the movie,
(25:29):
the real king gazo was anenthusiastic participant in the slave
trade. And did not want tostop. King Gazo controlled the agoji,
and so they were alsocomplicit in the slave trade. Now,
it is important to note atthis point. That history, as I've
said, Is written by thevictors, and it's highly likely that
there was an anti slaverymovement in Dahomey. It's also likely
(25:52):
that the trade wasn't aslucrative for the kingdom as records
state, because the records areeasily skewed by the racism of the
time. And most of the recordswere written by European colonizers,
who would, of course, paintthemselves in the best possible light
and attempt to paint theAfrican people as quote unquote savages.
This movie is set specificallyin 1823, at the time of dahomeans
(26:17):
wanting liberation from theOyo empire To form their own economic
dependence. The movie is avery small period of time in this
history of dahomey, but theOyo empire heavily taxed Dahomey
for goods and services.Dahomey really did break free of
oyo's control in 1823. Themovie also includes some fictionalized
(26:39):
characters or characters Basedon real people who didn't exist at
the same time. The real Nawiwas the last known surviving Agoji
with battlefield experience.Nawi died in 1979 at over 100 years
of age. Agoji traditionscontinued long after Dahomey's fall,
With descendants of the Agojisharing stories about their ancestors.
(27:01):
When actress Lupita Nyong'ovisited Benin for a 2019 documentary
called Warrior women withLupita Nyong'o, she met a woman identified
by locals as an agogee who'dbeen trained by older warriors as
a child and kept hidden fordecades. At one point, Lupita Nyong'o
was attached to play Nawi, andNyong'o also played former Dora Milaje,
(27:23):
now international spy forWakanda nakia, in black panther.
Nyong'o dropped out of therole early on in process. Coincidentally,
after fronting thedocumentary, and after hearing the
stories of ancestors of peoplecaptured and enslaved because of
dahomey's participation in theslave trade, she felt uncomfortable
with the tribe's legacy.Violence. The character of Nawi would
(27:46):
be rewritten younger, and TuzoMbedu would be cast instead. Mbedu
in her first major film roleafter starring in Barry Jenkins series
the underground railroadAlongside co star Sheila Atim, and
as her character, is basicallygiven to the king for being insolent
and refusing to take part inan arranged marriage. She ends up
training to be an Agoji andlearns of her biological mother.
(28:09):
It was a scene that wasincredibly personal to director Gina
Prince bythewood, who washerself adopted as a child, and it
consisted of dialogue shelonged to hear from her own biological
mother. Naniska was likelyinspired by an Agoji teenage recruit
of the same name whose fierceexecution of a prisoner was recorded
by a French naval officer in1889, but also partially based on
(28:35):
Ser Dong Hong Bae, one of themost well known leaders of the Agoji,
leading the warriors in 1851to obtain slaves from the Egber people
for the Dahomey slave trade.She wasn't mentioned in the Franco
Dahomey war, so chances areshe died or retired beforehand. In
1851, British Navy Commanderand Royal Geographical Society member
(28:57):
Frederick Edwin Forbes bookDahomey and the Dahomens featured
a hand drawn painting ofSedong Hong BAE in her uniform, carrying
on the skid and the severedhead of an African captive. Forbes
visited the dahomey kingdombetween 1849-1850 with the goal of
persuading King Gezo to put anend to the Atlantic slave trade.
(29:18):
The character of Santo Pereirawas loosely inspired by Francisco
Felix de Souza, a Brazilianslave trader who was an ally of King
Gezo and became an importantfigure in the proliferation and continuation
of the Dahomey slave trade.But even filming the movie had its
difficulties, mostly thanks tothe COVID 19 pandemic which struck
(29:40):
the cast and crew as they werefilming in cape town in November
2021. Production ended uptemporarily shutting down for several
weeks as infected peoplecovered, resuming in January 2022
with new stricter COVIDprotocols in place. Outdoor scenes
with 300 to 400 backgroundactors were limited to no more than
150. The actors playing theAgoji were quarantined in a hotel,
(30:05):
as were the stunt performers.An elaborate 11 day battle sequence
with hundreds of actors andstunt people had to be rescheduled
and re rehearsed after theinterruption. Because of the controversy
surrounding the accuracy ofthe story of the Woman King, several
news outlets published storiescomplaining this led to the American
Descendants of Slavery orADOs, calling to boycott the movie,
(30:29):
arguing it glorified a nationresponsible for brutality against
its descendants. Historiansweighed in viewing their concerns.
The social media hashtagBoycott Womanking trended for days
as the debate raged on withothers defending the uplifting narrative
of powerful dark skinned blackwomen, including its star Viola Davis
(30:50):
and director Gina PrinceBythewood on claims the movie was
fictionalized, Davis respondedthat it had to be. It was a movie,
it was there to entertain andif people wanted further education,
the movie was a jumping pointfor that. And speaking of jumping
points, it's time to segueinto the obligatory Keanu reference
of this episode, and if youdon't know what that is, it's where
(31:13):
I link the movie that I'mfeaturing with Keanu Reeves. As it
turns out, it is prettydifficult to link Keanu Reeves to
the Woman King. He's not awoman king, but he is a respectful
king towards women and that isthe easiest way for me to link Keanu
to the Woman King. As I alwayssay, all men should be more like
Keanu Reeves and Keanu Reevesis a respectful king. Now, although
(31:37):
there is a trailer that uses aBeyonce track, there are no Beyonce
songs on the officialsoundtrack. Composer Terence Blanchard,
who collaborated with the 9Voice Vox Noir ensemble in his opera
Fire Shut Up In My Bones,recruited them again for the score
for the Woman king. They spentfive days recording with the 78 member
(31:59):
Royal Scottish NationalOrchestra in Glasgow with a choir
led by Tezier Kwateng, aGhanaian American mezzo soprano.
The movie also features threechant and dance numbers by South
African composer Lebo M, whoalso sang the opening Zulu chant
of the Circle of Life from theLion King. Jesse Wilson, Jeremy Letito
(32:20):
and Angelique Kijo wrote andperformed the original song Keep
Rising which was featured inthe end credits. Angelique Kijo has
a small role in the movie asthe Muon. So despite all of the controversy
and all of the boycotting, theWoman King released on 16 September
2022, opening at number one atthe domestic box office with not
(32:43):
a great deal of competition.On its second week, Don't Worry Darling
released and went to numberone with the Woman King dropping
to second just above a rerelease of Avatar in third. In its
third week it dropped to thirdand it stayed in the top ten for
seven weeks on its $50 millionbudget. The Woman King made $67.3
(33:03):
million domestically in the USand $30.2 million internationally
for a total worldwide gross of$97.6 million. It has a 94% to Rotten
Tomatoes with all out praisefor Viola Davis as well as the breakout
performance by Tusso Bedou.But as I've mentioned, there is also
(33:24):
a lot of criticism for thismovie and honestly much of it feels
undeserved. Were the samepeople calling out Braveheart for
its historical inaccuracies?Or Titanic or Catch Me if youf can
or any other Hollywood moviebased on a true story. I mean Titanic
just gets the whole two peoplecould fit on that door and every
other inaccuracy seems to beforgotten about. It does feel like
(33:46):
a lot of the criticism forinaccuracy is unfairly held at the
Woman King. It's almost as ifblack women need to work 10 times
as hard to get a sliver of theamount of recognition and reward.
Right. Speaking of, while thewoman King received three nominations
at the baftas and one at thegolden Globes, the academy awards
(34:09):
seemed to shut the movie outcompletely. While Viola Davis was
being lauded for herincredible performance as Naniska,
receiving a bafta nominationand a golden globe nomination for
best actress, as well as ascreen actors guild award nomination
and a critics choice awardnomination, the academy awards seemed
completely ignorant of themovie. Director Gina Prince Bythewood
(34:32):
would state in an interviewwith new Hollywood reporter that,
quote, the woman King wasn'tsnubbed. A snub is if it missed out
on a category or two. The filmwas not nominated for one single
craft. Not one singleextraordinary performance was recognized.
And when has that happened?For a successful film that hit all
the so called markers, it'snot a snub. It's a reflection of
(34:53):
where the academy stands andthe constant chasm between black
excellence and recognition.And sadly, this is not just an issue
in Hollywood but in everyindustry. I'm going to use a Dr.
King quote because it's soapropos in that he spoke on the lie
of our inferiority accepted astruth in the society dominating us.
(35:13):
As I moved through this awardsseason, I was struck by the academy
members who simply didn't wantto see the film. People thought it
was a compliment at some ofour screenings to tell me they had
to be dragged there becausethey didn't think it was a film for
them or spoke ofcontemporaries who couldn't be convinced
to come with them and being sosurprised by how much they loved
the film. To hear that overand over, it's tough to stomach.
(35:36):
I don't approach any film likethat. I saw everything everywhere
all at once. And top maverickbecause I heard they were really
good. When you hear that, yougo to the movie or you look at the
trailer and say, I want to seethat. That looks good to me. We black
women do not get that samegrace. So the question we need to
ask is why is it so hard torelate to the work of your black
(35:57):
peers? What is this inabilityof academy voters to see black women
and their humanity and theirheroism as relatable to themselves,
unquote. I'm going to actuallylink the complete article of Gina
Prince bytheword's interviewwith the Hollywood Reporter because
it is a fascinating interviewand also highlights, I think, a lot
(36:19):
of the struggles that blackwomen still face in Hollywood and
black people in general stillface in Hollywood that despite Them
making excellent movies likethis one that there was so much apathy
around it from people inHollywood, like, are they okay? In
2022, John Boyega pitched asequel of sorts to the Woman King,
(36:40):
which would show King Gezo asa younger man to show the unfavorable
side of Dahomey's history andbasically depict him as the villain.
Having a movie where Boyega'sking is a more antagonistic character
worked to raise the historicalinaccuracies of the Woman King, but
it would at least go some waytowards presenting a more accurate
depiction of historicalevents. But so far, no sequel or
(37:03):
indeed prequel is forthcoming.Regardless of the criticisms about
inaccuracies, I see one thingand one thing only when I watch this
movie. Empowered black womenin a movie that places those women
in positions that mainstreamHollywood never really has. For all
Black Panther did, the focuswas on T'Challa and the wonderful
(37:26):
late Chadwick Boseman. Womenwere present in Black Panther and
women were highlighted, butnot like this. And here's the thing.
If you want a history lesson,go to a history class. This movie
has its detractors, but it dida great job telling a story that
we would never have otherwiseknown of. I'm going to say it again.
History is told by thevictors. Why would colonizing nations
(37:50):
know of female warrior tribes?You sometimes have to have a little
dramatic license in movieslike this, and that's okay. The horrors
of the slave trade are there.They're just not as explicit as they
were in real life. When askedabout the historical accuracy of
the Woman King, in aninterview with Buzzfeed, John Boyega
said, quote, I think this filmhas a very nuanced take on that time
(38:13):
in history. It's a movie aboutself reflection, It's a movie about
trauma, and it's a movie aboutpain. As creators, we are here to
shine a light on the realitiesof the world. We're not necessarily
always here to preach a veryaccepting message. Art can live in
a moral or immoral space andcould sometimes just be about shining
a light on human nature,history, and the reality of that
(38:36):
conflict. So for me, includingthat just shows that there is a way
in which we can embracestories that accept the fact that
humanity is not perfect whilealso being entertaining and something
you can learn from, unquote.One thing that this movie does very
well in its narrativesurrounding enslaved people is how
despicable it is and also howeasy it seems to be for these people
(39:00):
to profit off selling Africansto the highest bidder. It made me
Feel very uncomfortable as tothe ease of those trades. But I guess
that's the point. By thistime, the slave trade was the primary
source of income for manypeople, both colonizing nations and
African nations. If the moviehad gone deeper into the accuracy
of the Atlantic slave trade, Ifeel like the movie just wouldn't
(39:23):
work as what it's supposed tobe. A story of empowerment, of women's
stories, of black excellence,of black women's excellence. It would
be deeply uncomfortable. I getthat's the point. But in doing so,
you're taking away from thewomen at the center of this story
who are not enslaved. Africanhistory is complex. The history of
slavery is complex. Butfundamentally, without colonizing
(39:46):
nations in Europe and Americadriving the slave trade, African
nations wouldn't also becomplicit in it and profiting off
of it. So I guess what I'mbasically saying is white people
are still at fault. And tohave a period movie starring primarily
dark skinned black peoplewhere the lead actors aren't just
playing slaves is, quitefrankly, something we need more of
(40:08):
from Hollywood movies. And I'mspeaking as a very white, very British
millennial. I would have lovedto have seen this growing up. I would
have wanted to see thesestories. To have this movie made
so incredibly by a team ofprimarily women and women of color
must be incrediblyinspirational for black women and
girls. Something made for thediaspora. And bringing together a
(40:31):
team of people from differentAfrican backgrounds being filmed
in South Africa, it makes yourealize how starved we all are of
stories from Africa, ofHollywood movies set in Africa, of
movies featuring Africanswhere there's no white savior. There
is a mixed race guy. But whilehe, quote unquote, saves Nawi by
buying her, she's then free togo back to Dahomey without him, despite
(40:54):
being promised a life inBritain. But to be honest, I can
imagine 19th century Britainnot being the most welcoming place
for a young black woman. Andwhile I wasn't sure about a shark
tooth staying under a baby'sskin for the best part of 18 years,
I did find a story about asurfer who was attacked while surfing
when he was 13. And a piece ofwhatever it was, his tooth, was embedded
(41:18):
in his foot for almost 20years. His immune system had started
to break it down, but it gotextracted and the now adult Jeff
Weakley went to the FloridaMuseum of Natural History to find
out what the sliver of toothwas. They found out it was in fact
a shark's tooth. A black tipshark, to be precise. Anyway, it's
really the only part of themovie I question and narratively
(41:40):
it is the only way we can knowthat Nawi is Naniska's child because
there was no DNA testing in1823, but I still think a baby's
immune system would haveexpelled that tooth. I don't know
if you are a scientist and youknow of baby biology, let me know
what you think about the sharktooth, but it does just seem a little
(42:01):
bit far fetched to me. Anyway,minor gripes aside, and my gripes
with this movie are sounbelievably minor. I love this movie
so much. I love Viola Davis. Ithink she is so badass and I always
thought she was such anincredible dramatic actor and then
I find out she is and she cankick ass as well. Honestly, such
(42:22):
a powerhouse of a woman and Ihave loved Lashana lynch since Captain
Marvel and I will still go tobat for that movie and for Maria
Rambeau, who was a charactergone far too soon in my opinion.
Lashana lynch is such anincredible talent. The whole cast
are perfect and I hope we seethe rise of Tusso and Bedu because
this was her first major movierole and she holds her own against
(42:44):
Viola freaking Davis. And Ilove how Naniska learns and grows
from her relationship withNawi just as Nawi grows from hers
with Naniska. It is abeautiful movie about love and friendship
and sisterhood and kickingass. I am so sad this movie didn't
get any Academy Awardsrecognition and considering the Academy
(43:05):
has been trying to stave offthe Oscars so white controversy,
you'd think this would be theperfect movie to uplift and highlight.
There is no better movie tokick off women's history than than
the incredible, mostly truestory of the Agoji. To be a warrior,
you must kill your tears. No.To be a warrior you learn to fight
(43:25):
together, to go back for thefallen, to surround your sisters
with love, to grieve yourlosses and forgive the innocent.
To be a warrior, you find theman who wronged you and you make
him remember exactly who youare. They do not know the evil that
is coming. Turn your back andsee how true my aim is. Thank you
(43:47):
for listening. As always, Iwould love to hear your thoughts
on the Woman King and thankyou for your continued support of
this podcast. If you want toget involved and help this podcast
grow, you can leave a ratingor review wherever you found this
podcast. You can find me atverbal diorama all across social
media. You can like post, youcan follow me, you can share posts,
(44:08):
you can comment on posts thatall helps with visibility. Or you
could also tell your friendsand family about this podcast and
about this episode. And if youlike this episode on the Woman King,
you might also like adifferent movie, but also a movie
purely focused on theexcellence of Black women. A couple
of years ago I did an episodeon the movie Hidden Figures, which
(44:32):
again was a movie that Ididn't know anything about these
amazing Black femalemathematicians who worked at NASA.
Now again, Hidden Figures isnot completely accurate to the experience
of these women who worked atNASA in the 60s. However, it is an
incredible movie with someincredible performances in it and
(44:52):
I feel like if you wanted tohave a Black female excellence double
bill, you couldn't go wrongwith the Woman King and Hidden Figures.
My episode on Hidden figuresis episode 204. So the next episode
of this podcast we are goingfrom the Woman King to the Virgin
Queen, Queen Elizabeth ii. Thelate Queen of the UK isn't a direct
(45:16):
descendant of Queen Elizabeththe First, but they share a name,
long reigns and lastinglegacies. Elizabeth I ruled over
England, Wales and Irelandfrom 1558 until her death in 1603.
She successfully navigatedpolitical turmoil, promoted the arts
and ensured a powerful Navy.In 1998, a lavish adaptation of Elizabeth's
(45:41):
early years introduced theworld to the powerhouse that is Cate
Blanchett. And so the nextepisode of this podcast is going
to be on the history andlegacy of Elizabeth from 1998 and
I hope you will join me forthat. Now, as I always say, it is
absolutely free to listen tothis podcast. There will never be
(46:01):
any charge to listen to thispodcast, but unfortunately it is
not free to make a podcast andI do rely on some incredible people
to help me with this podcast.You are under no obligation to join
them. However, if you getvalue out of what I do and you want
to support an indie creatorwho does everything by herself, then
there are two ways you couldsupport Verbal Diorama. The first
(46:23):
way is going toverbaldiorama.com tips and the second
is by going toverbaldiorama.competreon and you
can join the amazing patronsof this podcast. They are Claudia,
Simon, Laurel, Derek, Kat,Andy, Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott,
Brendan, Lisa, Sam, Jack,Dave, Stuart, Nicholas, Zoe, Kev,
(46:44):
Pete, Heather, Danny, Ali,Stu, Brett, Philip M, Michelle, Zenos,
Sean, Rhino, Philip K, Adam,Elaine, Kyle and Aaron. If you want
to get in touch, you can emailverbaldioramail.com or you can go
to the websiteverbaldiorama.com and fill out the
little contact form where youcan say hi. You can give feedback
(47:05):
or suggestions. You can alsofind work that I do@filmstories.co.uk
too. And finally.
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