January 9, 2025 • 45 mins
There's Nobody Like U, Turning Red.
Turning Red is a ground-breaking animated film, rightfully kicking off Animation Season 2025 in style, with magical puberty front and centre, that addresses the universal struggles of adolescence through the story of Mei Lee, a 13-year-old girl caught between her familial obligations and her burgeoning independence.
Domee Shi's feature-length directorial debut represents a significant milestone as Pixar's first solo female director and first female director of colour, as well as having the first all-female lead team, and a unique animation style influenced by anime and traditional Chinese culture, enhancing its visual storytelling.
And Red Panda Mei is SO FLUFFY!
It's also a deft exploration of cultural identity reflecting the immigrant experience, of balancing family expectations with personal desires, as well as tackling periods; a subject that remains taboo in most situations, encouraging open conversations about menstruation. It captures the awkwardness and excitement of teenage life—particularly for girls who feel the weight of both cultural and familial expectations.
Critically acclaimed yet hugely financially underperforming, Turning Red highlights the challenges faced by diverse narratives in mainstream cinema. It's more than just a children's movie; it is a celebration of the regular, normal, everyday experiences that shape us all. Let's relive our awkward teen experiences together!
4*Town 4 EVER!!!
I would love to hear your thoughts on Turning Red !
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:40):
Hi everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to bubble diorama, episode
282, turning red. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't. That'll never
not be your ride or die.Welcome to Verbal Diorama. Whether
you are a brand new listener,whether you are a regular returning
listener, thank you for beinghere. Thank you for choosing to listen
(02:02):
to this podcast. I'm so happyto have you here for the history
and legacy of Turning Red. Anda huge happy new year to you all.
It is now 2025, and becauseit's the start of 2025, that means
a huge welcome to AnimationSeason 2025. This is the fifth annual
(02:22):
Animation Season. It is acelebration of animation in all forms.
Traditional, 2D, hand drawn,stop motion, CGI. A mix of all of
the above, featuring some ofthe greatest animation studios of
all time. I've covered on thispodcast, movies by Leica, Aardman,
Disney Dreamworks, Pixar,Studio, Ghibli, Cartoon Saloon, even
(02:46):
the studios that no longerexist, like Fox Animation, Don Bluth
Studios Animation is not justfor children. Animation is not a
genre. It is the perfect artform. It is capable of depicting
anything and anyone withoutthe limitations of live action cinema.
This is one of the reasons whyanimation season is so important
(03:06):
to me, especially because Iwant to highlight incredible animated
films that you may havediscounted for whatever reason, but
you're missing out on someincredible visuals and storytelling.
And that's why I love to dothis animation season every January
and February. And this year,even if I do say so myself, there
are some absolute doozies inthe schedule. Movies I get asked
(03:29):
about when I'm doing animatedcult favorites, Oscar nominees, Oscar
winners, movies that I thinkdeserve a bit more love. And Turning
Red is one such movie. But asAlways. I'm hugely grateful to everyone
who listens to this podcastand has continued to listen to and
support this podcast. Thispodcast is almost six years old.
(03:51):
It turns six next month inFebruary. I have now achieved over
280 episodes on this podcastand I honestly could not do it without
the continued support ofeveryone listening. 2025 is here.
Bizarrely, time just keepsticking away. But we were all a teenager
once. We may not want toremember those times, but we were
(04:13):
all 13 once upon a time. Andwe all know what an absolute hellscape
it was to be a teenager. Now,I can't comment on the experience
of being a 13 year old boybecause I never was a 13 year old
boy. However, I was once a 13year old girl. And this movie to
me just encapsulateseverything I felt about being a 13
(04:36):
year old girl in the 90s. Butwithout further ado, let's jump into
the first episode of AnimationSeason 2025 of Verbal Diorama. In
2025, it's time for the redpeony to bloom. Here's the trailer
for Turning red.
(07:14):
Meilin Lee. A confident andambitious 13 year old Chinese Canadian
girl is navigating adolescencein Toronto. May struggles to balance
her responsibilities as adutiful daughter to her overprotective
mother, Ming, with her growingdesire for independence. One day,
(07:34):
Mei discovers she transformsinto a giant red panda whenever she
experiences strong emotions, aphenomenon tied to a mystical family
curse. Initially mortified byher newfound condition, Mei learns
to embrace her Panda, findingjoy and confidence in her unique
abilities. As Mei and herfriends embark on fundraising schemes
(07:54):
to attend the 4 TAM concert,her favorite boy band, tensions rise
between May's personal desiresand her mother's strict expectations.
Let's run through the cast ofthis movie. We have Rosalie Chang
as Meilin Lee, Sandra oh asMing Lee, Eva Morse as Miriam Mendelsohn,
(08:15):
Mitreyi Ramakrishnan as PriyaMandal, Hyen park as Abby Park, Orion
Lee as Jin Lee, Wai Ching Hoas Wu Tristan, Alaric Chen as Tyler
Wen Baker and James Hong asMr. Gao turning red has a screenplay
by Julia Cho and Domee Shi, astory by Domee Shi, Julia Cho and
(08:39):
Sarah Stryker, and wasdirected by Domee Shi So as I mentioned,
this is the first episode ofanimation season 2025 and like last
year, I'm starting with aPixar movie. Last year I started
with Wally and some of thecrew on this movie started out on
Wall E. This one is moremodern. It came out during the Pandemic
(09:01):
and it suffered commerciallyfor that. But cards on the table,
Turning Red is very much mymovie because I, like 49.6% of the
world's population, haveexperience being a teenage girl starting
puberty, getting my firstperiod and feeling like a disgusting
red beast. Turning Red was thelast of the Pixar pandemic movies
(09:23):
that ended up on Disney plusinstead of getting a full cinema
release. But none of them,Onward, Soul and Luca, suffered financially
as much as Turning Red did.Now, the fact that Lightyear came
out a few months later andmade ten times as much money always
felt like a bit of a travestyto me because this movie, in my humble
(09:44):
opinion, is way better thanLightyear. Turning Red deserves better.
Turning Red gets to kick offAnimation Season 2025 in style. We
get to embrace the Panda FourTown forever, with the four in forever
being the number four, becausethat's how we did it in the early
2000s. And at the heart ofthis movie is writer director Dongmi
(10:06):
Shi. She was born in China.She immigrated to Canada with her
parents when she was 2 yearsold. Like Mei, she's an only child.
She interned at Pixar in 2011after graduating from Sheridan College
and after being her highschool's vice president of the Anime
Club, Obviously. She alsouploaded her fan artwork to DeviantArt.
(10:26):
She was initially turned downfor a Pixar internship, but applied
again on the advice of herfather and got the internship and
was eventually offered a fulltime job at the studio. The first
movie she worked on was Insideout as a storyboard artist. She also
worked as a story artist onthe Good Dinosaur Toy Story 4 and
as additional story artist onIncredibles 2. But her passion project
(10:49):
was none of those Things. Itwas Bao. She started sketching Bao
in 2014 and began working onit as a side project. She based it
on her experiences of growingup as an only child and being, quote,
an overprotected littlesteamed bun. End quote. She was also
inspired by traditional darkfolk tales and children's stories,
(11:11):
as well as Studio Ghibli's MyNeighbors, the Yamadas and Spirited
Away. Bao was pitched to PeteDocter and approved as a Pixar short
in 2015, making she the firstwoman to direct a short film for
Pixar, the first time in 35shorts for the studio. Bao premiered
at the Tribeca film festivalin April 2018, featured before Incredibles
(11:35):
2 in cinemas, and she alsobecame the first woman of color to
win the Academy Award for BestAnimated short film for Bao. But
Donu Xi wasn't done with thosefirsts. On 31st October 2017, she
was invited to pitch threeideas to Pixar. After the success
of Bao, all were coming of agestories centered on teenage girls,
(11:57):
and the winning pitch wasabout magical puberty, centered around
a Chinese Canadian mother anddaughter, and Pete Docter, as Pixar's
new chief creative officer,wanted more stories from personal
experiences and from minoritygroups. This shift started with Luca,
which had long been seen as ametaphor for not only puberty and
(12:18):
feeling like an outsider, butalso the experience of being lgbtq.
Director Enrico Casarosa'sbiographical coming of age story
was never seriously discussedas being a canonically queer story
during the making of Luca, butit's since being adopted as such
by the LGBTQ community. Andeven if it's not canonically queer,
(12:39):
if it speaks to queer people,then it speaks to queer people. But
Luca really heralded thechange for more biographical stories,
and the product of thatchange, led by Domee Shi, which was
then called Red, was announcedin May 2018 as the first full length
Pixar movie to be solelydirected by a female director and
(13:01):
a woman of color. The film'slead creative team would also be
the first all female team forPixar, including producer Lindsay
Collins, who joined the studioin 1997 and co produced Wally, produced
Finding Dory, and alsoproduction designer Rona Liu, who'd
worked with Domee Shi On Bao,they were all encouraged to tap into
(13:21):
their tween selves and embracethose beautifully blundering memories,
those cringy crushes and thoseadolescent obsessions. The look of
Turning Red would take thesymbolism of the Chinese culture
Domee Shi grew up with, aswell as the anime she watched and
the manga she drew and lovedas a child, as well as the awkward
hormones growing up lustingafter boy bands and, well, all the
(13:46):
red Red would mean more thanthe obvious period talk. Red is the
main color of both theCanadian and Chinese flags. Red is
also a lucky color in China,associated with good fortune and
joy. A hong bao, a redenvelope stuffed with money, is the
usual gift in Chinesecommunities for Chinese New Year,
(14:06):
birthdays, marriages and otherspecial occasions, as well as the
red panda native to China.They are cute, they are cuddly and
fluffy, they're very close totheir mothers, they sleep all day
and they eat food that's notnutritious enough for them, just
like teenagers. The teamstudied red pandas at the San Francisco
Zoo, where a red panda wasnamed May Lee in honor of the main
(14:30):
character in Turning Red onthe movie's day of release. Some
of the other title ideas forthe movie include Primal of Life,
Bet on Red Red Reflections,Peony Blossom, Panda Prime Red and
Redder the Red Inside, PMSPanda Mayhem Story, Big Burden, Notorious
(14:52):
rpg, Red Panda Girl and and aPanda. I'm actually a big fan of
Notorious rpg. I think that'sa great title. The movie takes place
in Toronto, but it wasactually San Francisco's Chinatown
that served as a designinspiration. And while the production
visited several Chinesetemples for design inspiration for
(15:12):
the Li family temple, it wasthe Bok Kai Temple in Marysville,
California that served as themain point of reference for for the
Li family temple. Built in1880, it is the only in situ 19th
century Chinese temple in theUnited States that is still active.
And this movie is also set in2002. When phones flipped, you burned
(15:36):
CDs for friends and yes,Tamagotchis was still a thing. It
was coming to the end of beinga thing. But looking after virtual
pets was literally your firstattempt at keeping something alive.
And they died really easily.Mine did anyway, except mine was
never an official Tamagotchi.But yes, I had flip phones and I
still have CDs that my friendsburned for me all those years ago
(15:59):
because I just do not want toget rid of them. I do not want to
throw them away because theyare so nostalgic. The design team
turned to the 2D look of animeas the driving stylistic force for
turning red. This meanttweaking the hyper realistic norm
at Pixar to fit their vision,bending the way they did, modeling,
shading and lighting to bemore graphic. Using anime influences
(16:21):
like Doraemon, sailor moon,ranma, 1/2 fruits basket and inuyasha.
My neighbor Totoro's Totoroinspired the look of red Panda Mei
and unsurprisingly, StudioGhibli also inspired the delicious
looking food that Mei's fatheris cooking. They learned on Bao about
the textual and light responseto the food. The shape can be stylized,
(16:44):
but the shading response hasto be realistic. Meat needs to look
like meat. The way the lightpasses through leaves has to look
real in order for viewers tohave that connection that this is
food that and they slathereverything in oil. And when they
can't do that on lettuce forexample, they use what the food ad
industry does and saturate thecolors so the lettuce's green was
(17:06):
greener than lettuce usuallyis and added a bright white watery
gloss to evoke freshness. Thecultural consultants for the food
in the film was Gold House, anon profit organization that specializes
in promotion of East Asian andPacific cultures, who explained the
first immigrants in Toronto'sChinatown weren't just Cantonese,
(17:27):
but Tai Chanese. And so theywent with culturally accurate foods
like eel, rice, snow peas,steamed fish and seafood soup. They
studied the watercolors andshape language of anime and also
referenced live action films,especially Edgar Wright's Scott Pilgrim
vs. The World, which is alsoset in Toronto, which is also heavily
(17:48):
influenced by anime and videogames. The entire process required
significant software retoolingand changes in order to translate
the graphic anime style intocomputer generated graphics. This
included changing the tone ofpastel backdrops to help the figure
stand out, adding color,variety and staining to the materials,
(18:10):
making the Chinatown buildingsappear chunky with pointy rooftops
that resembled cat ears andproducing a pink mist cloud to heighten
fantasy scenes for moregraphic expressiveness of characters.
Eyes, size and shape werealtered and stars added. The biggest
part of the movie, of course,was Panda, Mei Mei's alter ego. And
(18:32):
Panda May had her own set ofunique problems. This was a new beast.
Excuse the pun. Even thoughPixar had long before conquered fur
with Monsters Inc. Andimproved it exponentially ever since.
At first, working with Hugeand Fluffy seemed counterintuitive
and the chunky, adorable shapewas awkward. Pandemey's movements
(18:53):
and facial Expressions had tobe carefully considered while maintaining
her appearance and characteras Mei. They actually shrunk Panda
Mei 10 to 15% in interiorspaces so she could move, interact
and not intersect with otherparts of the set. And the reason
Panda Ming is so large andbasically becomes a Kaiju is because
(19:14):
her emotions have beensuppressed for so long and are so
out of control and her pandais huge and destructive. Ming is
very traditional Chinese. Herclothing and jewelry is traditional
and mirrors her own mother'straditional style, which demonstrates
the influence her mother hadon her and the expectations of her
mother passed down to her,which she is now trying to pass down
(19:36):
to May. And obviously much ofthis production took place with people
working remotely during theCOVID 19 pandemic, including some
of the voice work. They didregular zoom chats and coffee breaks
once or twice a week to keepthe crew connections going. These
chats included dogs, cats,kids and babies. Visual effects supervisor
Danielle Feinberg became amother to twins during production
(19:59):
and being able to work fromhome during that period was time
with her children that youjust can't get back. 16 year old
Rosalie Chiang, who played Maycoincidentally once gave a presentation
on red pandas to her fifthgrade class four years prior. She
just started her acting careerwhen she was given the chance to
try out for the part. She wasinvited to an in person interview
(20:23):
at Pixar's Emeryville officesafter using her mother's iPhone to
audition when she was 12 yearsold. Because she was local, she was
hired to record scratch vocalswhich are short term audio tracks
that will eventually bereplaced by a professional voice
actor. It's a common practicein animated filmmaking because the
process is often years longand involves a huge team of producers,
(20:46):
writers, animators, and youhave various script revisions, visual
renderings and multiple of thesteps of the process that can change.
The productions hiredtemporary voices to help find the
character before aprofessional comes in. After auditioning
professional actors for May,Domee Shi and Lindsey Collins discovered
that they had already fallenin love with Rosalie Chiang's scratch
(21:09):
vocals and they couldn'timagine anyone else playing May even
after listening to a number ofauditions. Chiang was natural dorky
and they just felt sheembodied Mei. They brought the matter
to the attention of PeteDocter, the chief creative officer
of Pixar, who personally gavehis approval for Chiang to play the
movie's protagonist. To tellChiang that she'd actually been cast
(21:32):
as May for the movie, she andCollins brought in a camera crew
during a day of line readingat the beginning of 2020, telling
Chiang it was for a behind thescenes documentary, but instead they
filmed Line reading a new pageof script with she reading as Ming
Mei's mother, who tells Qiangas Mei that she'd got the part of
(21:53):
Mei for real. It would be thefinal time that she and Collins saw
Chiang in real life. Becausethen the pandemic happened and to
keep production going,everyone went to work from home and
Pixar sent Chiang some audioequipment, but it took up so much
room in her house that herparents had to fashion a makeshift
recording studio. And when itcame to casting Mei's mother, Ming,
(22:17):
Sandra oh was Domee Shi'snumber one choice for me. She was
most famous for Grey'sAnatomy, which earned her a Golden
Globe, a Screen Actors GuildAward, and five consecutive Primetime
Emmys for Best SupportingActress in a drama. And also Killing
Eve as the titular eve. In2018, O became the first actress
(22:38):
of Asian descent to benominated for the Primetime Emmy
award for Outstanding LeadActress in a Drama series for Killing
Eve, and she also became thefirst woman of Asian descent to win
two Golden Globes. Sandra ohis awesome, but they also wanted
someone who could be anurturing, loving mother, but also
sharp and intimidating. Andhonestly, I think Sandra oh absolutely
(23:00):
kills it in this movie. I wanther to be my mother, but I also don't
want her to be my mother. Butone of the things that I think really
sticks out for me in this filmis something else that we did in
the early 2000s and also inthe 90s as well, and that was boy
bands. And just like May, Iwas obsessed with certain boy bands,
(23:21):
starting with New Kids on theBlock, then Backstreet Boys, Boyzone.
I was never really into takethat, NSYNC A1 5. I still enjoy the
music as well. I never didlike Westlife. My crushes. There
was no Robert, but Nick Carterfrom the Backstreet Boys, Ronan Keating
from Boiseau, and RichieNeville from five. And I guess it
(23:45):
was always the cute blondeguys that teenage me liked. I'm not
really so much into blondeguys these days, but I had the posters.
I went to concerts. My firstconcert was a Boyzone concert with
my best friend at the time,Lisa. Lisa. And I loved Boyzone.
I know Lisa sometimes haslistened to this podcast in the past,
so. Hi Lisa, if you'relistening, my Backstreet Boys bestie
(24:09):
was my friend Aisha. We neverwent to see them, but Aisha and I
talked about the BackstreetBoys all the time. Basically, what
I'm saying is boy bands andthe love of boy bands fostered genuine
friendships for me as ateenager. One of the many reasons
Turning Red speaks to youngteenage me and the experience of
so many young women who grewup in the 90s and the 2000s, just
(24:33):
like May, the immigrantexperience, obviously I have zero
experience with. But being ateen girl obsessed with boy bands,
yep, that was me. But despitethe way that this movie gets boy
bands, absolutely 100% correctis the fact that this movie hits
me hard by speaking to theexperience of literally half of the
(24:56):
population. So the fact is,directed, written by and produced
by a team of women, the firstall female senior team at Pixar just
makes so much sense becausethis is a movie by women, for women
predominantly. But it's also acoming of age story about a young
girl who turns into a redpanda. And honestly, if you can relate
to Bruce Banner becoming Hulkwhen he's angry, then you can relate
(25:19):
to being an awkward teen withall sorts going on in your body.
Even Pete Docter describedMay's situation in the movie as the
Hulk, but cuter whenpresenting it at D23 in 2021. And
let's just talk about thegiant red panda in the room. Periods.
For such a long time it wastaboo to talk about periods, despite
(25:42):
the fact that almost everyfemale goes through it. It was so
taboo that it was only almost40 years ago in 1985, when Courteney
Cox, then advertising Tampaxtampons, uttered the word period
on tv. She was the firstperson to say that word on American
TV. It was only 2017 when bodyform replaced the blue liquid used
(26:04):
to simulate period blood inads with a more realistic red liquid.
And even then I remember thatbeing met with disgust and shame,
even from actual women. Thestigma around periods is still there.
It's getting better, but it'sstill there. The notion that pads
are unhygienic, which has ledto some supermarkets rebranding the
(26:24):
feminine hygiene aisle toperiod products, which also makes
it inclusive because nonbinary people also get periods and
so do trans men. Nothing aboutperiods is unhygienic. If you have
a tween girl in your life,talk openly and honestly about menstruation.
Periods are normal. Let'sstamp out these taboos like giant
(26:47):
red pandas. The fact thismovie has that analogy and it uses
it so openly and honestly andfeatures pads so prominently in a
mainstream Pixar movie isfrankly about damn time and the studio
heads at Pixar. Embracing thisvery normal part of life for so many
is really refreshing becauseif you don't experience it, chances
(27:09):
are you know someone who will,who does, or who has. And that also
may be one of those reasonsthat this movie didn't seem to do
very well, and that this moviedoesn't seem to resonate with so
many people. Because maybepeople find that particular topic
alienating, but them's thefacts of life. So if it's something
(27:30):
that you are personally afraidof or ashamed of or worried about,
do your research. If you don'twant to watch this movie because
of that reason, maybe askyourself, well, what am I so afraid
of about a completely normalthing that happens to, like I said,
a lot of people in this world?And if Turning Red does anything,
as far as I'm concerned, notonly does it give you that picture
(27:53):
perfect moment in a teenager'slife and makes it fun and funny and
honest and approachable, italso takes this topic that some see
still as taboo and makes itvery normal by making it mystical.
Which is strange, but itworks. Speaking of normal but mystical,
(28:15):
let's move on to theobligature Keanu reference for this
episode, and if you don't knowwhat that is, it's where I try and
link the movie that I'mfeaturing with Keanu Reeves. Now
this is obviously a verytricky one because Keanu Reeves,
although I expect a lot ofpeople, had a crush on him in 2002,
myself included, I didn'treally want to go down that route
because as far as May'sconcerned, her crush is Robert from
(28:40):
Four Town. But then I foundthis really wonderful slash weird
link to the movie, and that isthat there is a fur suitor called
Keanu the Red Panda who livesin Chattanooga, Tennessee. He is
the self proclaimed localfurry community leader for the Chattanooga
the Nougat area and when he'snot a red panda, he's James Lavelle
(29:03):
Thompson. Now he's also beenaccused of degree fraud and spreading
misinformation about thepandemic. So really he's not particularly
someone that I wanted tomention because Keanu Reeves is of
course the best of men.However, it is the easiest way to
link Keanu Reeves to thismovie which has a red panda in it,
(29:25):
by mentioning Keanu the RedPanda who is the self proclaimed
local furry community leaderfor Chattanooga. And as I mentioned,
the boy band connection is sogood. And it's even better when you
consider that the peoplebehind the songs of Four Town are
not actually a boy bandthemselves, but it is Billie Eilish
(29:46):
and her brother PhineasO'Connell. They wrote the songs,
performed by May's favoriteband, Four Town. The titles of the
tracks in all of their early2000s glory are one true love, you
Know what's up and Nobody butyou. Obviously the U is always the
letter U and not the word u.Phineas sings on the tracks and voices
(30:08):
Jesse, one of the members ofthe band. It's remarkable really,
that neither were old enoughto remember true 90s 2000s boy band
culture, and yet the songs arepitch perfect. Domi Sheen managed
to get Billie Eilish andPhineas O'Connell aboard when Eilish
was starting to come to fameat the start of production and the
songs were recorded in late2020. The rest of four town consisted
(30:32):
of Jordan Fisher, Josh Levi,Grayson Villanueva and Topher no.
The song Nobody like you wasreleased on 25 February 2022, two
weeks before the film'srelease, and peaked number 49 on
the Billboard Hot 100. Thesong was nominated for a Grammy Award
for Best Song Written forVisual Media. It would lose to Lin
(30:55):
Manuel Miranda's We Don't TalkAbout Bruno, which is interesting
because, well, I can't talkabout it just now. Four Town is called
Four Town despite having fivemembers purely because four is an
unlucky number in Chineseculture and the production team knew
that this would add to Ming'sdistrust of the music. It was important
(31:16):
that the movie took the boyband seriously and not treat them
as a throwaway thing becausefor the fans of these boy bands they
are most definitely not athrowaway thing. The score was by
Ludwig Goransson in his firstanimated film project and was recorded
within a two week period afterCOVID 19 lockdown relaxations. Special
(31:39):
screenings of Turning Red wereheld in Toronto on 8 March 2022 and
in London on 21 February 2022.On 1 March 2022 it had its debut
at Hollywood's El CapitanTheatre. Now Walt Disney Studios
initially planned for it to bereleased in theaters in the United
States on 11 March 2022 aftersoul and Luca were given direct to
(32:05):
streaming premieres on Disneybecause of the pandemic. A Pixar
Source confirmed in June 2021that Turning Red would be released
in theaters on 7 January 2022.However, its theatrical premiere
was canceled for a direct tostreaming release on Disney as a
(32:25):
Disney original due to theincrease of the COVID 19 omicron
variant at the time. It diddebut in cinemas in other countries
in 2022 including Bulgaria,Czech Republic, Poland, Romania,
Turkey, United Arab Emirates,Vietnam, Australia and New Zealand.
On 5 December 2023, it wasannounced that Turning Red, Soul
(32:48):
and Luca would finally get atheatrical release in the United
states in early 2024, withTurning Red being released on 9th
February 2024. Turning Redalso released here in the UK on 9th
February 2024 alongsidereleases in Mexico and Spain when
it did actually go direct tostreaming on Disney plus as a Disney
(33:11):
original title, Turning Redwas streamed in 2.5 million US households
over its opening weekend, atthe time the most ever for a Disney
plus original title, andbecame the second most watched movie
on US streaming services in2022 with 11.4 billion minutes viewed.
For the limited release it didhave in cinemas across the world,
(33:34):
it would return $1.4 milliondomestically in the US and $20.4
million internationally, for atotal worldwide gross of $21.8 million.
Now its budget was $175million, so it kind of didn't really
make any of its money back andtechnically it is seen as one of
(33:57):
the biggest flops ever. Butbut Turning Red did receive critical
acclaim on Rotten Tomatoes. Ithas a 95 rating, with the consensus
reading heartwarming,humorous, beautifully animated and
culturally expansive, TurningRed extends Pixar's long list of
family friendly triumphs. Itdid, however, receive a particularly
(34:19):
scathing review fromCinemaBlend's Sean O'Connell, who
suggested the movie's focus ona Chinese Canadian teenage girl to
be limiting to the audience atlarge. Quote by rooting Turning Red
very specifically in the Asiancommunity of Toronto, the film legitimately
feels like it was made forDomee Shi's friends and immediate
family members, which is fine,but also a tad limiting in its scope,
(34:41):
unquote. Social media foundthis review and immediately called
it racist and sexist, witheven lead actress Rosalie Chiang
highlighting there was acoming of age story and relatable
to everyone in some capacity,regardless of your culture. As a
result, CinemaBlend's editorin chief Mac Rawdon pulled O'Connell's
review and apologized publiclyfor it, and that the site had failed
(35:04):
to properly edit the reviewbefore posting. O'Connell also posted
his own apology for thereview. Turning Red was also nominated
for Best Animated Feature atthe Academy Awards, Best Animated
film at the BAFTAs, and thebest Animated Feature Film at the
Golden Globes. It would loseto Guillermo del Torres Pinocchio
for all three, that is episode239 of this very podcast. It was
(35:29):
also nominated for seven AnnieAwards and also lost the majority
of those also to Pinocchio.But we don't mind because Pinocchio
is pretty much a masterpiece.Domy, she told Polygon in an interview
quote, the red panda is ametaphor not just for puberty, but
also what we inherit from ourmums and how we deal with the things
that we inherit from them.Turning red is a huge step forward
(35:54):
for female representation onscreen, and it works hard to destigmatize
and have a frank conversationabout the experiences of women and
girls. Which brings me to whyanimation season is so important.
Animation is a powerful tool.Not only is it a beautiful medium
of filmmaking, it can alsohelp in our processing of difficult
(36:14):
subjects. Subjects that liveaction filmmaking may find too harsh
or real to handle in a waythat is palatable. Animation is a
universal language. It'sunderstood by small children all
the way up to elderly people.Talking to family members about puberty,
growing apart, growing up orintergenerational trauma may be difficult,
(36:36):
but watching an animated movietogether and experiencing those common
human emotions is simple. It'seasy and it's immersive. Using metaphors
for extreme emotions isn'tnew, but just like other Pixar movies
like Coco is a palatable wayto introduce children to death and
what death means and insideout, giving personality to our emotions.
(36:58):
Turning red takes somethingnormal and makes it magical and let's
be honest, it's rubbish to gothrough. But that feeling doesn't
last that long and periodsjust become a normal, everyday part
of being a person with auterus. As is, trust me, the disdain
for whatever gender you happento fancy until a certain point in
time when they're all you canthink about. Everyone talks about
(37:19):
embracing your inner child,remembering how it felt to be a kid
the first time you met SantaClaus and sat on his lap, or the
first time the tooth fairyvisited. But no one ever tells you
to embrace your teenage years.The zits, the awkwardness. Maybe
you wore braces and you hatedthem, the bad fashion choices, feeling
out of place at school ormisunderstood by your family. It's
(37:41):
hard to look back on thoseyears with fond memories, but they
were formative to you,becoming the hopefully well grounded
individual you are today. Ican understand the concern about
parents maybe wanting to havethese conversations that out puberty,
hormones, etc with theirchildren on their own terms and in
their own time. But so manyparents just don't know how to broach
(38:01):
the subject. How open to be. Ithink I might have benefited from
watching a movie like this asa teenager and just being able to
ask the questions and not beso ashamed about it all. And it's
still a shame that needs to beaddressed. I've seen criticisms about
this movie's lack ofmetaphorical focus, especially when
May embraces her panda at theend, but to be honest, I don't think
(38:24):
it needs to be taken soliterally. Mei respects her family
and her culture, but shechooses to take a different path
to her mother, aunts andgrandmother. She's expected to renounce
the panda because that'stradition, but traditions don't always
need to be followed, and as aChinese Canadian girl growing up
in Canada as opposed to China,she can respect her heritage and
(38:45):
go her own way. Feelingtrapped by parental expectations
is also a pretty universallyunderstood theme. All parents want
the best for their children todo better than they did. I don't
have children, but I've falleninto the same traps that many do
for my nieces and nephews,having expectations that one day
they'll become astronauts,doctors, or theoretical physicists
because I never achieved anyof those things. So of course I want
(39:08):
them to. If they don't, andthey're happy doing whatever it is
they end up doing, then ofcourse I'll be happy with that. But
similarly, if they need myassistants to get into Oxbridge,
then of course I'll do it.I've seen a lot of discourse online
about this movie, especiallyon Reddit with people merely hating
on it. Maybe I'm biased as aperson who just got this movie, but
(39:29):
I also love the uniqueanimation style, the anime influences,
the clear homage to StudioGhibli, and the passion behind the
scenes. Is Ming Yi a bit much?Yeah, she's the exaggerated mother
slash villain and it doesn'talways work, but parents do embarrass
us, and in our minds as ateenager, it is way worse than it
actually is. Domee Shi is atalented filmmaker, an inspiration
(39:52):
to all us nerdy girls whomaybe daydreamed a little too much
when we were teenagers. She'sco directing Elio for Pixar next
and that comes out next year.I also love the period 2002 setting,
but again, that's not going towork for anyone born in the 2000s.
All in all, Turning Red maynot be your favorite Pixar movie,
and it's certainly not minebecause that's still the Incredibles.
(40:15):
But it's a step in the rightdirection for a studio that has seemingly
lost its way a little from thehalcyon days of Toy Story, Wall E,
Inside Out Monsters Inc. AndCoco. Personal stories might be personal,
but they're also relatable.And Turning Red really struggled
without getting that cinemarelease. It may have been a risk
for Pixar, but Pixar shouldtake more risk, as should Hollywood
(40:37):
in general. Let's be honest,puberty might be the one most relatable
thing that humans go through.Turning Red would be remarkable just
for that one fact alone. Andyet here we also are with Pixar's
first solo female director,first female director of color, first
Asian led story by Pixar, andPixar's first all female senior production
team. Turning Red breaksbarriers. It's a story about Asian
(41:00):
families, Asian cultures withAsian representation on and off screen,
but it remains a universallyunderstood story. I relate to. May
I weirdly also relate to Mingjust wanting to protect her child.
We've all had weird crushesand drawn those horrible, awful,
sexy things. I like boys andloud music. I like Joy rating. Deal
(41:22):
with it. But also everyone gohome, where are your parents? And
put some clothes on. Thank youfor listening. As always, I would
love to hear your thoughts onTurning Red. Thank you for your continued
support of this podcast andonce again, Happy New Year to you
all. If you want to getinvolved and you want to help this
podcast grow, you can. Youcould leave a rating or review wherever
(41:44):
you found this podcast. Youcan find me on social media, I am
@VerbalDiorama, on Twitter,Facebook, Instagram threads, Blue
sky and Letterboxd. You canfind posts, you can share posts,
you can like posts. It allhelps. Or you can simply tell your
friends and family about thispodcast if you like this episode
on Turning Red. I've also doneprevious episodes on a few different
(42:05):
Pixar movies actually, but thetwo that I thought most feel like
companions for this episode,probably episode 75, which is on
Coco, and episode 188, whichis on Inside Out. So the next episode
we talk about Bruno? No, no,no. Or maybe we do because it's time
(42:26):
for more generational traumawith Disney's Encanto coming up next.
This animation season I'vedone a Pixar movie, so it makes sense
to do a Disney movie next.Join me next week for the history
and legacy of Encanto. Now,this podcast is free and it always
will be free. However, it isnot free to make a podcast. I rely
(42:48):
on the incredibly generoussupport of some wonderful people
who support this podcastfinancially. Now, you are under no
obligation to do the same.However, if you do have some spare
pennies and you do get valueout of what I do on Verbal Diorama
you can support the showfinancially in one of two ways. You
could go to verbaldiorama.comtips and give a one off tip. Or you
(43:11):
can go to verbaldiorama.ComPatreon and you can join the amazing
patrons of Herbal Diorama.They are Sade, Claudia, Simon, Laurel,
Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke,Michael, Scott, Brendan, Lisa, Sam,
Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas.So, Kev, Pete, Heather, Danny, Ali,
Stew, Brett, Philip M.Michelle, Zenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip
(43:34):
K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle, andAaron. That's not Aaron T or Aaron
Z, by the way. They're likereally talented too. If you want
to get in touch with me, youcan. You can email verbaldioramail.com
you can say hi. You can giveme feedback or suggestions. You can
also find me@verbaldiorama.comor you can find me on social media
(43:56):
@verbaldiorama and you canmessage me on there. You can also
find mystuff@filmstories.co.uk you can check
out the magazine, and you cancheck out online articles. And finally.
Hi everyone. I'm Em, andwelcome to bubble diorama, episode
282, turning red. This is thepodcast that's all about the history
and legacy of movies you knowand movies you don't. That'll never
not be your ride or die.Welcome to Verbal Diorama. Whether
you are a brand new listener,whether you are a regular returning
listener, thank you for beinghere. Thank you for choosing to listen
(02:02):
to this podcast. I'm so happyto have you here for the history
and legacy of Turning Red. Anda huge happy new year to you all.
It is now 2025, and becauseit's the start of 2025, that means
a huge welcome to AnimationSeason 2025. This is the fifth annual
(02:22):
Animation Season. It is acelebration of animation in all forms.
Traditional, 2D, hand drawn,stop motion, CGI. A mix of all of
the above, featuring some ofthe greatest animation studios of
all time. I've covered on thispodcast, movies by Leica, Aardman,
Disney Dreamworks, Pixar,Studio, Ghibli, Cartoon Saloon, even
(02:46):
the studios that no longerexist, like Fox Animation, Don Bluth
Studios Animation is not justfor children. Animation is not a
genre. It is the perfect artform. It is capable of depicting
anything and anyone withoutthe limitations of live action cinema.
This is one of the reasons whyanimation season is so important
(03:06):
to me, especially because Iwant to highlight incredible animated
films that you may havediscounted for whatever reason, but
you're missing out on someincredible visuals and storytelling.
And that's why I love to dothis animation season every January
and February. And this year,even if I do say so myself, there
are some absolute doozies inthe schedule. Movies I get asked
(03:29):
about when I'm doing animatedcult favorites, Oscar nominees, Oscar
winners, movies that I thinkdeserve a bit more love. And Turning
Red is one such movie. But asAlways. I'm hugely grateful to everyone
who listens to this podcastand has continued to listen to and
support this podcast. Thispodcast is almost six years old.
(03:51):
It turns six next month inFebruary. I have now achieved over
280 episodes on this podcastand I honestly could not do it without
the continued support ofeveryone listening. 2025 is here.
Bizarrely, time just keepsticking away. But we were all a teenager
once. We may not want toremember those times, but we were
(04:13):
all 13 once upon a time. Andwe all know what an absolute hellscape
it was to be a teenager. Now,I can't comment on the experience
of being a 13 year old boybecause I never was a 13 year old
boy. However, I was once a 13year old girl. And this movie to
me just encapsulateseverything I felt about being a 13
(04:36):
year old girl in the 90s. Butwithout further ado, let's jump into
the first episode of AnimationSeason 2025 of Verbal Diorama. In
2025, it's time for the redpeony to bloom. Here's the trailer
for Turning red.
(07:14):
Meilin Lee. A confident andambitious 13 year old Chinese Canadian
girl is navigating adolescencein Toronto. May struggles to balance
her responsibilities as adutiful daughter to her overprotective
mother, Ming, with her growingdesire for independence. One day,
(07:34):
Mei discovers she transformsinto a giant red panda whenever she
experiences strong emotions, aphenomenon tied to a mystical family
curse. Initially mortified byher newfound condition, Mei learns
to embrace her Panda, findingjoy and confidence in her unique
abilities. As Mei and herfriends embark on fundraising schemes
(07:54):
to attend the 4 TAM concert,her favorite boy band, tensions rise
between May's personal desiresand her mother's strict expectations.
Let's run through the cast ofthis movie. We have Rosalie Chang
as Meilin Lee, Sandra oh asMing Lee, Eva Morse as Miriam Mendelsohn,
(08:15):
Mitreyi Ramakrishnan as PriyaMandal, Hyen park as Abby Park, Orion
Lee as Jin Lee, Wai Ching Hoas Wu Tristan, Alaric Chen as Tyler
Wen Baker and James Hong asMr. Gao turning red has a screenplay
by Julia Cho and Domee Shi, astory by Domee Shi, Julia Cho and
(08:39):
Sarah Stryker, and wasdirected by Domee Shi So as I mentioned,
this is the first episode ofanimation season 2025 and like last
year, I'm starting with aPixar movie. Last year I started
with Wally and some of thecrew on this movie started out on
Wall E. This one is moremodern. It came out during the Pandemic
(09:01):
and it suffered commerciallyfor that. But cards on the table,
Turning Red is very much mymovie because I, like 49.6% of the
world's population, haveexperience being a teenage girl starting
puberty, getting my firstperiod and feeling like a disgusting
red beast. Turning Red was thelast of the Pixar pandemic movies
(09:23):
that ended up on Disney plusinstead of getting a full cinema
release. But none of them,Onward, Soul and Luca, suffered financially
as much as Turning Red did.Now, the fact that Lightyear came
out a few months later andmade ten times as much money always
felt like a bit of a travestyto me because this movie, in my humble
(09:44):
opinion, is way better thanLightyear. Turning Red deserves better.
Turning Red gets to kick offAnimation Season 2025 in style. We
get to embrace the Panda FourTown forever, with the four in forever
being the number four, becausethat's how we did it in the early
2000s. And at the heart ofthis movie is writer director Dongmi
(10:06):
Shi. She was born in China.She immigrated to Canada with her
parents when she was 2 yearsold. Like Mei, she's an only child.
She interned at Pixar in 2011after graduating from Sheridan College
and after being her highschool's vice president of the Anime
Club, Obviously. She alsouploaded her fan artwork to DeviantArt.
(10:26):
She was initially turned downfor a Pixar internship, but applied
again on the advice of herfather and got the internship and
was eventually offered a fulltime job at the studio. The first
movie she worked on was Insideout as a storyboard artist. She also
worked as a story artist onthe Good Dinosaur Toy Story 4 and
as additional story artist onIncredibles 2. But her passion project
(10:49):
was none of those Things. Itwas Bao. She started sketching Bao
in 2014 and began working onit as a side project. She based it
on her experiences of growingup as an only child and being, quote,
an overprotected littlesteamed bun. End quote. She was also
inspired by traditional darkfolk tales and children's stories,
(11:11):
as well as Studio Ghibli's MyNeighbors, the Yamadas and Spirited
Away. Bao was pitched to PeteDocter and approved as a Pixar short
in 2015, making she the firstwoman to direct a short film for
Pixar, the first time in 35shorts for the studio. Bao premiered
at the Tribeca film festivalin April 2018, featured before Incredibles
(11:35):
2 in cinemas, and she alsobecame the first woman of color to
win the Academy Award for BestAnimated short film for Bao. But
Donu Xi wasn't done with thosefirsts. On 31st October 2017, she
was invited to pitch threeideas to Pixar. After the success
of Bao, all were coming of agestories centered on teenage girls,
(11:57):
and the winning pitch wasabout magical puberty, centered around
a Chinese Canadian mother anddaughter, and Pete Docter, as Pixar's
new chief creative officer,wanted more stories from personal
experiences and from minoritygroups. This shift started with Luca,
which had long been seen as ametaphor for not only puberty and
(12:18):
feeling like an outsider, butalso the experience of being lgbtq.
Director Enrico Casarosa'sbiographical coming of age story
was never seriously discussedas being a canonically queer story
during the making of Luca, butit's since being adopted as such
by the LGBTQ community. Andeven if it's not canonically queer,
(12:39):
if it speaks to queer people,then it speaks to queer people. But
Luca really heralded thechange for more biographical stories,
and the product of thatchange, led by Domee Shi, which was
then called Red, was announcedin May 2018 as the first full length
Pixar movie to be solelydirected by a female director and
(13:01):
a woman of color. The film'slead creative team would also be
the first all female team forPixar, including producer Lindsay
Collins, who joined the studioin 1997 and co produced Wally, produced
Finding Dory, and alsoproduction designer Rona Liu, who'd
worked with Domee Shi On Bao,they were all encouraged to tap into
(13:21):
their tween selves and embracethose beautifully blundering memories,
those cringy crushes and thoseadolescent obsessions. The look of
Turning Red would take thesymbolism of the Chinese culture
Domee Shi grew up with, aswell as the anime she watched and
the manga she drew and lovedas a child, as well as the awkward
hormones growing up lustingafter boy bands and, well, all the
(13:46):
red Red would mean more thanthe obvious period talk. Red is the
main color of both theCanadian and Chinese flags. Red is
also a lucky color in China,associated with good fortune and
joy. A hong bao, a redenvelope stuffed with money, is the
usual gift in Chinesecommunities for Chinese New Year,
(14:06):
birthdays, marriages and otherspecial occasions, as well as the
red panda native to China.They are cute, they are cuddly and
fluffy, they're very close totheir mothers, they sleep all day
and they eat food that's notnutritious enough for them, just
like teenagers. The teamstudied red pandas at the San Francisco
Zoo, where a red panda wasnamed May Lee in honor of the main
(14:30):
character in Turning Red onthe movie's day of release. Some
of the other title ideas forthe movie include Primal of Life,
Bet on Red Red Reflections,Peony Blossom, Panda Prime Red and
Redder the Red Inside, PMSPanda Mayhem Story, Big Burden, Notorious
(14:52):
rpg, Red Panda Girl and and aPanda. I'm actually a big fan of
Notorious rpg. I think that'sa great title. The movie takes place
in Toronto, but it wasactually San Francisco's Chinatown
that served as a designinspiration. And while the production
visited several Chinesetemples for design inspiration for
(15:12):
the Li family temple, it wasthe Bok Kai Temple in Marysville,
California that served as themain point of reference for for the
Li family temple. Built in1880, it is the only in situ 19th
century Chinese temple in theUnited States that is still active.
And this movie is also set in2002. When phones flipped, you burned
(15:36):
CDs for friends and yes,Tamagotchis was still a thing. It
was coming to the end of beinga thing. But looking after virtual
pets was literally your firstattempt at keeping something alive.
And they died really easily.Mine did anyway, except mine was
never an official Tamagotchi.But yes, I had flip phones and I
still have CDs that my friendsburned for me all those years ago
(15:59):
because I just do not want toget rid of them. I do not want to
throw them away because theyare so nostalgic. The design team
turned to the 2D look of animeas the driving stylistic force for
turning red. This meanttweaking the hyper realistic norm
at Pixar to fit their vision,bending the way they did, modeling,
shading and lighting to bemore graphic. Using anime influences
(16:21):
like Doraemon, sailor moon,ranma, 1/2 fruits basket and inuyasha.
My neighbor Totoro's Totoroinspired the look of red Panda Mei
and unsurprisingly, StudioGhibli also inspired the delicious
looking food that Mei's fatheris cooking. They learned on Bao about
the textual and light responseto the food. The shape can be stylized,
(16:44):
but the shading response hasto be realistic. Meat needs to look
like meat. The way the lightpasses through leaves has to look
real in order for viewers tohave that connection that this is
food that and they slathereverything in oil. And when they
can't do that on lettuce forexample, they use what the food ad
industry does and saturate thecolors so the lettuce's green was
(17:06):
greener than lettuce usuallyis and added a bright white watery
gloss to evoke freshness. Thecultural consultants for the food
in the film was Gold House, anon profit organization that specializes
in promotion of East Asian andPacific cultures, who explained the
first immigrants in Toronto'sChinatown weren't just Cantonese,
(17:27):
but Tai Chanese. And so theywent with culturally accurate foods
like eel, rice, snow peas,steamed fish and seafood soup. They
studied the watercolors andshape language of anime and also
referenced live action films,especially Edgar Wright's Scott Pilgrim
vs. The World, which is alsoset in Toronto, which is also heavily
(17:48):
influenced by anime and videogames. The entire process required
significant software retoolingand changes in order to translate
the graphic anime style intocomputer generated graphics. This
included changing the tone ofpastel backdrops to help the figure
stand out, adding color,variety and staining to the materials,
(18:10):
making the Chinatown buildingsappear chunky with pointy rooftops
that resembled cat ears andproducing a pink mist cloud to heighten
fantasy scenes for moregraphic expressiveness of characters.
Eyes, size and shape werealtered and stars added. The biggest
part of the movie, of course,was Panda, Mei Mei's alter ego. And
(18:32):
Panda May had her own set ofunique problems. This was a new beast.
Excuse the pun. Even thoughPixar had long before conquered fur
with Monsters Inc. Andimproved it exponentially ever since.
At first, working with Hugeand Fluffy seemed counterintuitive
and the chunky, adorable shapewas awkward. Pandemey's movements
(18:53):
and facial Expressions had tobe carefully considered while maintaining
her appearance and characteras Mei. They actually shrunk Panda
Mei 10 to 15% in interiorspaces so she could move, interact
and not intersect with otherparts of the set. And the reason
Panda Ming is so large andbasically becomes a Kaiju is because
(19:14):
her emotions have beensuppressed for so long and are so
out of control and her pandais huge and destructive. Ming is
very traditional Chinese. Herclothing and jewelry is traditional
and mirrors her own mother'straditional style, which demonstrates
the influence her mother hadon her and the expectations of her
mother passed down to her,which she is now trying to pass down
(19:36):
to May. And obviously much ofthis production took place with people
working remotely during theCOVID 19 pandemic, including some
of the voice work. They didregular zoom chats and coffee breaks
once or twice a week to keepthe crew connections going. These
chats included dogs, cats,kids and babies. Visual effects supervisor
Danielle Feinberg became amother to twins during production
(19:59):
and being able to work fromhome during that period was time
with her children that youjust can't get back. 16 year old
Rosalie Chiang, who played Maycoincidentally once gave a presentation
on red pandas to her fifthgrade class four years prior. She
just started her acting careerwhen she was given the chance to
try out for the part. She wasinvited to an in person interview
(20:23):
at Pixar's Emeryville officesafter using her mother's iPhone to
audition when she was 12 yearsold. Because she was local, she was
hired to record scratch vocalswhich are short term audio tracks
that will eventually bereplaced by a professional voice
actor. It's a common practicein animated filmmaking because the
process is often years longand involves a huge team of producers,
(20:46):
writers, animators, and youhave various script revisions, visual
renderings and multiple of thesteps of the process that can change.
The productions hiredtemporary voices to help find the
character before aprofessional comes in. After auditioning
professional actors for May,Domee Shi and Lindsey Collins discovered
that they had already fallenin love with Rosalie Chiang's scratch
(21:09):
vocals and they couldn'timagine anyone else playing May even
after listening to a number ofauditions. Chiang was natural dorky
and they just felt sheembodied Mei. They brought the matter
to the attention of PeteDocter, the chief creative officer
of Pixar, who personally gavehis approval for Chiang to play the
movie's protagonist. To tellChiang that she'd actually been cast
(21:32):
as May for the movie, she andCollins brought in a camera crew
during a day of line readingat the beginning of 2020, telling
Chiang it was for a behind thescenes documentary, but instead they
filmed Line reading a new pageof script with she reading as Ming
Mei's mother, who tells Qiangas Mei that she'd got the part of
(21:53):
Mei for real. It would be thefinal time that she and Collins saw
Chiang in real life. Becausethen the pandemic happened and to
keep production going,everyone went to work from home and
Pixar sent Chiang some audioequipment, but it took up so much
room in her house that herparents had to fashion a makeshift
recording studio. And when itcame to casting Mei's mother, Ming,
(22:17):
Sandra oh was Domee Shi'snumber one choice for me. She was
most famous for Grey'sAnatomy, which earned her a Golden
Globe, a Screen Actors GuildAward, and five consecutive Primetime
Emmys for Best SupportingActress in a drama. And also Killing
Eve as the titular eve. In2018, O became the first actress
(22:38):
of Asian descent to benominated for the Primetime Emmy
award for Outstanding LeadActress in a Drama series for Killing
Eve, and she also became thefirst woman of Asian descent to win
two Golden Globes. Sandra ohis awesome, but they also wanted
someone who could be anurturing, loving mother, but also
sharp and intimidating. Andhonestly, I think Sandra oh absolutely
(23:00):
kills it in this movie. I wanther to be my mother, but I also don't
want her to be my mother. Butone of the things that I think really
sticks out for me in this filmis something else that we did in
the early 2000s and also inthe 90s as well, and that was boy
bands. And just like May, Iwas obsessed with certain boy bands,
(23:21):
starting with New Kids on theBlock, then Backstreet Boys, Boyzone.
I was never really into takethat, NSYNC A1 5. I still enjoy the
music as well. I never didlike Westlife. My crushes. There
was no Robert, but Nick Carterfrom the Backstreet Boys, Ronan Keating
from Boiseau, and RichieNeville from five. And I guess it
(23:45):
was always the cute blondeguys that teenage me liked. I'm not
really so much into blondeguys these days, but I had the posters.
I went to concerts. My firstconcert was a Boyzone concert with
my best friend at the time,Lisa. Lisa. And I loved Boyzone.
I know Lisa sometimes haslistened to this podcast in the past,
so. Hi Lisa, if you'relistening, my Backstreet Boys bestie
(24:09):
was my friend Aisha. We neverwent to see them, but Aisha and I
talked about the BackstreetBoys all the time. Basically, what
I'm saying is boy bands andthe love of boy bands fostered genuine
friendships for me as ateenager. One of the many reasons
Turning Red speaks to youngteenage me and the experience of
so many young women who grewup in the 90s and the 2000s, just
(24:33):
like May, the immigrantexperience, obviously I have zero
experience with. But being ateen girl obsessed with boy bands,
yep, that was me. But despitethe way that this movie gets boy
bands, absolutely 100% correctis the fact that this movie hits
me hard by speaking to theexperience of literally half of the
(24:56):
population. So the fact is,directed, written by and produced
by a team of women, the firstall female senior team at Pixar just
makes so much sense becausethis is a movie by women, for women
predominantly. But it's also acoming of age story about a young
girl who turns into a redpanda. And honestly, if you can relate
to Bruce Banner becoming Hulkwhen he's angry, then you can relate
(25:19):
to being an awkward teen withall sorts going on in your body.
Even Pete Docter describedMay's situation in the movie as the
Hulk, but cuter whenpresenting it at D23 in 2021. And
let's just talk about thegiant red panda in the room. Periods.
For such a long time it wastaboo to talk about periods, despite
(25:42):
the fact that almost everyfemale goes through it. It was so
taboo that it was only almost40 years ago in 1985, when Courteney
Cox, then advertising Tampaxtampons, uttered the word period
on tv. She was the firstperson to say that word on American
TV. It was only 2017 when bodyform replaced the blue liquid used
(26:04):
to simulate period blood inads with a more realistic red liquid.
And even then I remember thatbeing met with disgust and shame,
even from actual women. Thestigma around periods is still there.
It's getting better, but it'sstill there. The notion that pads
are unhygienic, which has ledto some supermarkets rebranding the
(26:24):
feminine hygiene aisle toperiod products, which also makes
it inclusive because nonbinary people also get periods and
so do trans men. Nothing aboutperiods is unhygienic. If you have
a tween girl in your life,talk openly and honestly about menstruation.
Periods are normal. Let'sstamp out these taboos like giant
(26:47):
red pandas. The fact thismovie has that analogy and it uses
it so openly and honestly andfeatures pads so prominently in a
mainstream Pixar movie isfrankly about damn time and the studio
heads at Pixar. Embracing thisvery normal part of life for so many
is really refreshing becauseif you don't experience it, chances
(27:09):
are you know someone who will,who does, or who has. And that also
may be one of those reasonsthat this movie didn't seem to do
very well, and that this moviedoesn't seem to resonate with so
many people. Because maybepeople find that particular topic
alienating, but them's thefacts of life. So if it's something
(27:30):
that you are personally afraidof or ashamed of or worried about,
do your research. If you don'twant to watch this movie because
of that reason, maybe askyourself, well, what am I so afraid
of about a completely normalthing that happens to, like I said,
a lot of people in this world?And if Turning Red does anything,
as far as I'm concerned, notonly does it give you that picture
(27:53):
perfect moment in a teenager'slife and makes it fun and funny and
honest and approachable, italso takes this topic that some see
still as taboo and makes itvery normal by making it mystical.
Which is strange, but itworks. Speaking of normal but mystical,
(28:15):
let's move on to theobligature Keanu reference for this
episode, and if you don't knowwhat that is, it's where I try and
link the movie that I'mfeaturing with Keanu Reeves. Now
this is obviously a verytricky one because Keanu Reeves,
although I expect a lot ofpeople, had a crush on him in 2002,
myself included, I didn'treally want to go down that route
because as far as May'sconcerned, her crush is Robert from
(28:40):
Four Town. But then I foundthis really wonderful slash weird
link to the movie, and that isthat there is a fur suitor called
Keanu the Red Panda who livesin Chattanooga, Tennessee. He is
the self proclaimed localfurry community leader for the Chattanooga
the Nougat area and when he'snot a red panda, he's James Lavelle
(29:03):
Thompson. Now he's also beenaccused of degree fraud and spreading
misinformation about thepandemic. So really he's not particularly
someone that I wanted tomention because Keanu Reeves is of
course the best of men.However, it is the easiest way to
link Keanu Reeves to thismovie which has a red panda in it,
(29:25):
by mentioning Keanu the RedPanda who is the self proclaimed
local furry community leaderfor Chattanooga. And as I mentioned,
the boy band connection is sogood. And it's even better when you
consider that the peoplebehind the songs of Four Town are
not actually a boy bandthemselves, but it is Billie Eilish
(29:46):
and her brother PhineasO'Connell. They wrote the songs,
performed by May's favoriteband, Four Town. The titles of the
tracks in all of their early2000s glory are one true love, you
Know what's up and Nobody butyou. Obviously the U is always the
letter U and not the word u.Phineas sings on the tracks and voices
(30:08):
Jesse, one of the members ofthe band. It's remarkable really,
that neither were old enoughto remember true 90s 2000s boy band
culture, and yet the songs arepitch perfect. Domi Sheen managed
to get Billie Eilish andPhineas O'Connell aboard when Eilish
was starting to come to fameat the start of production and the
songs were recorded in late2020. The rest of four town consisted
(30:32):
of Jordan Fisher, Josh Levi,Grayson Villanueva and Topher no.
The song Nobody like you wasreleased on 25 February 2022, two
weeks before the film'srelease, and peaked number 49 on
the Billboard Hot 100. Thesong was nominated for a Grammy Award
for Best Song Written forVisual Media. It would lose to Lin
(30:55):
Manuel Miranda's We Don't TalkAbout Bruno, which is interesting
because, well, I can't talkabout it just now. Four Town is called
Four Town despite having fivemembers purely because four is an
unlucky number in Chineseculture and the production team knew
that this would add to Ming'sdistrust of the music. It was important
(31:16):
that the movie took the boyband seriously and not treat them
as a throwaway thing becausefor the fans of these boy bands they
are most definitely not athrowaway thing. The score was by
Ludwig Goransson in his firstanimated film project and was recorded
within a two week period afterCOVID 19 lockdown relaxations. Special
(31:39):
screenings of Turning Red wereheld in Toronto on 8 March 2022 and
in London on 21 February 2022.On 1 March 2022 it had its debut
at Hollywood's El CapitanTheatre. Now Walt Disney Studios
initially planned for it to bereleased in theaters in the United
States on 11 March 2022 aftersoul and Luca were given direct to
(32:05):
streaming premieres on Disneybecause of the pandemic. A Pixar
Source confirmed in June 2021that Turning Red would be released
in theaters on 7 January 2022.However, its theatrical premiere
was canceled for a direct tostreaming release on Disney as a
(32:25):
Disney original due to theincrease of the COVID 19 omicron
variant at the time. It diddebut in cinemas in other countries
in 2022 including Bulgaria,Czech Republic, Poland, Romania,
Turkey, United Arab Emirates,Vietnam, Australia and New Zealand.
On 5 December 2023, it wasannounced that Turning Red, Soul
(32:48):
and Luca would finally get atheatrical release in the United
states in early 2024, withTurning Red being released on 9th
February 2024. Turning Redalso released here in the UK on 9th
February 2024 alongsidereleases in Mexico and Spain when
it did actually go direct tostreaming on Disney plus as a Disney
(33:11):
original title, Turning Redwas streamed in 2.5 million US households
over its opening weekend, atthe time the most ever for a Disney
plus original title, andbecame the second most watched movie
on US streaming services in2022 with 11.4 billion minutes viewed.
For the limited release it didhave in cinemas across the world,
(33:34):
it would return $1.4 milliondomestically in the US and $20.4
million internationally, for atotal worldwide gross of $21.8 million.
Now its budget was $175million, so it kind of didn't really
make any of its money back andtechnically it is seen as one of
(33:57):
the biggest flops ever. Butbut Turning Red did receive critical
acclaim on Rotten Tomatoes. Ithas a 95 rating, with the consensus
reading heartwarming,humorous, beautifully animated and
culturally expansive, TurningRed extends Pixar's long list of
family friendly triumphs. Itdid, however, receive a particularly
(34:19):
scathing review fromCinemaBlend's Sean O'Connell, who
suggested the movie's focus ona Chinese Canadian teenage girl to
be limiting to the audience atlarge. Quote by rooting Turning Red
very specifically in the Asiancommunity of Toronto, the film legitimately
feels like it was made forDomee Shi's friends and immediate
family members, which is fine,but also a tad limiting in its scope,
(34:41):
unquote. Social media foundthis review and immediately called
it racist and sexist, witheven lead actress Rosalie Chiang
highlighting there was acoming of age story and relatable
to everyone in some capacity,regardless of your culture. As a
result, CinemaBlend's editorin chief Mac Rawdon pulled O'Connell's
review and apologized publiclyfor it, and that the site had failed
(35:04):
to properly edit the reviewbefore posting. O'Connell also posted
his own apology for thereview. Turning Red was also nominated
for Best Animated Feature atthe Academy Awards, Best Animated
film at the BAFTAs, and thebest Animated Feature Film at the
Golden Globes. It would loseto Guillermo del Torres Pinocchio
for all three, that is episode239 of this very podcast. It was
(35:29):
also nominated for seven AnnieAwards and also lost the majority
of those also to Pinocchio.But we don't mind because Pinocchio
is pretty much a masterpiece.Domy, she told Polygon in an interview
quote, the red panda is ametaphor not just for puberty, but
also what we inherit from ourmums and how we deal with the things
that we inherit from them.Turning red is a huge step forward
(35:54):
for female representation onscreen, and it works hard to destigmatize
and have a frank conversationabout the experiences of women and
girls. Which brings me to whyanimation season is so important.
Animation is a powerful tool.Not only is it a beautiful medium
of filmmaking, it can alsohelp in our processing of difficult
(36:14):
subjects. Subjects that liveaction filmmaking may find too harsh
or real to handle in a waythat is palatable. Animation is a
universal language. It'sunderstood by small children all
the way up to elderly people.Talking to family members about puberty,
growing apart, growing up orintergenerational trauma may be difficult,
(36:36):
but watching an animated movietogether and experiencing those common
human emotions is simple. It'seasy and it's immersive. Using metaphors
for extreme emotions isn'tnew, but just like other Pixar movies
like Coco is a palatable wayto introduce children to death and
what death means and insideout, giving personality to our emotions.
(36:58):
Turning red takes somethingnormal and makes it magical and let's
be honest, it's rubbish to gothrough. But that feeling doesn't
last that long and periodsjust become a normal, everyday part
of being a person with auterus. As is, trust me, the disdain
for whatever gender you happento fancy until a certain point in
time when they're all you canthink about. Everyone talks about
(37:19):
embracing your inner child,remembering how it felt to be a kid
the first time you met SantaClaus and sat on his lap, or the
first time the tooth fairyvisited. But no one ever tells you
to embrace your teenage years.The zits, the awkwardness. Maybe
you wore braces and you hatedthem, the bad fashion choices, feeling
out of place at school ormisunderstood by your family. It's
(37:41):
hard to look back on thoseyears with fond memories, but they
were formative to you,becoming the hopefully well grounded
individual you are today. Ican understand the concern about
parents maybe wanting to havethese conversations that out puberty,
hormones, etc with theirchildren on their own terms and in
their own time. But so manyparents just don't know how to broach
(38:01):
the subject. How open to be. Ithink I might have benefited from
watching a movie like this asa teenager and just being able to
ask the questions and not beso ashamed about it all. And it's
still a shame that needs to beaddressed. I've seen criticisms about
this movie's lack ofmetaphorical focus, especially when
May embraces her panda at theend, but to be honest, I don't think
(38:24):
it needs to be taken soliterally. Mei respects her family
and her culture, but shechooses to take a different path
to her mother, aunts andgrandmother. She's expected to renounce
the panda because that'stradition, but traditions don't always
need to be followed, and as aChinese Canadian girl growing up
in Canada as opposed to China,she can respect her heritage and
(38:45):
go her own way. Feelingtrapped by parental expectations
is also a pretty universallyunderstood theme. All parents want
the best for their children todo better than they did. I don't
have children, but I've falleninto the same traps that many do
for my nieces and nephews,having expectations that one day
they'll become astronauts,doctors, or theoretical physicists
because I never achieved anyof those things. So of course I want
(39:08):
them to. If they don't, andthey're happy doing whatever it is
they end up doing, then ofcourse I'll be happy with that. But
similarly, if they need myassistants to get into Oxbridge,
then of course I'll do it.I've seen a lot of discourse online
about this movie, especiallyon Reddit with people merely hating
on it. Maybe I'm biased as aperson who just got this movie, but
(39:29):
I also love the uniqueanimation style, the anime influences,
the clear homage to StudioGhibli, and the passion behind the
scenes. Is Ming Yi a bit much?Yeah, she's the exaggerated mother
slash villain and it doesn'talways work, but parents do embarrass
us, and in our minds as ateenager, it is way worse than it
actually is. Domee Shi is atalented filmmaker, an inspiration
(39:52):
to all us nerdy girls whomaybe daydreamed a little too much
when we were teenagers. She'sco directing Elio for Pixar next
and that comes out next year.I also love the period 2002 setting,
but again, that's not going towork for anyone born in the 2000s.
All in all, Turning Red maynot be your favorite Pixar movie,
and it's certainly not minebecause that's still the Incredibles.
(40:15):
But it's a step in the rightdirection for a studio that has seemingly
lost its way a little from thehalcyon days of Toy Story, Wall E,
Inside Out Monsters Inc. AndCoco. Personal stories might be personal,
but they're also relatable.And Turning Red really struggled
without getting that cinemarelease. It may have been a risk
for Pixar, but Pixar shouldtake more risk, as should Hollywood
(40:37):
in general. Let's be honest,puberty might be the one most relatable
thing that humans go through.Turning Red would be remarkable just
for that one fact alone. Andyet here we also are with Pixar's
first solo female director,first female director of color, first
Asian led story by Pixar, andPixar's first all female senior production
team. Turning Red breaksbarriers. It's a story about Asian
(41:00):
families, Asian cultures withAsian representation on and off screen,
but it remains a universallyunderstood story. I relate to. May
I weirdly also relate to Mingjust wanting to protect her child.
We've all had weird crushesand drawn those horrible, awful,
sexy things. I like boys andloud music. I like Joy rating. Deal
(41:22):
with it. But also everyone gohome, where are your parents? And
put some clothes on. Thank youfor listening. As always, I would
love to hear your thoughts onTurning Red. Thank you for your continued
support of this podcast andonce again, Happy New Year to you
all. If you want to getinvolved and you want to help this
podcast grow, you can. Youcould leave a rating or review wherever
(41:44):
you found this podcast. Youcan find me on social media, I am
@VerbalDiorama, on Twitter,Facebook, Instagram threads, Blue
sky and Letterboxd. You canfind posts, you can share posts,
you can like posts. It allhelps. Or you can simply tell your
friends and family about thispodcast if you like this episode
on Turning Red. I've also doneprevious episodes on a few different
(42:05):
Pixar movies actually, but thetwo that I thought most feel like
companions for this episode,probably episode 75, which is on
Coco, and episode 188, whichis on Inside Out. So the next episode
we talk about Bruno? No, no,no. Or maybe we do because it's time
(42:26):
for more generational traumawith Disney's Encanto coming up next.
This animation season I'vedone a Pixar movie, so it makes sense
to do a Disney movie next.Join me next week for the history
and legacy of Encanto. Now,this podcast is free and it always
will be free. However, it isnot free to make a podcast. I rely
(42:48):
on the incredibly generoussupport of some wonderful people
who support this podcastfinancially. Now, you are under no
obligation to do the same.However, if you do have some spare
pennies and you do get valueout of what I do on Verbal Diorama
you can support the showfinancially in one of two ways. You
could go to verbaldiorama.comtips and give a one off tip. Or you
(43:11):
can go to verbaldiorama.ComPatreon and you can join the amazing
patrons of Herbal Diorama.They are Sade, Claudia, Simon, Laurel,
Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke,Michael, Scott, Brendan, Lisa, Sam,
Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas.So, Kev, Pete, Heather, Danny, Ali,
Stew, Brett, Philip M.Michelle, Zenos, Sean, Rhino, Philip
(43:34):
K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle, andAaron. That's not Aaron T or Aaron
Z, by the way. They're likereally talented too. If you want
to get in touch with me, youcan. You can email verbaldioramail.com
you can say hi. You can giveme feedback or suggestions. You can
also find me@verbaldiorama.comor you can find me on social media
(43:56):
@verbaldiorama and you canmessage me on there. You can also
find mystuff@filmstories.co.uk you can check
out the magazine, and you cancheck out online articles. And finally.
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