December 30, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode we talked about Ageism at Work with Maureen Wiley Clough, host of the acclaimed podcast It Gets Late Early. In it we unpacked the unique challenges women face as we progress in our career and share actionable strategies for overcoming age-related obstacles and redefining our career trajectories at any age.
For our guest full bio and show notes go to www.vesther.co/podcast
This episode is brought to you by VEST, a peer network for women professionals and investment fund investing in women led companies building solutions for the care economy and future of work.
This conversation was part of a more intimate coaching session with VEST Members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. If you'd like to learn more about joining our peer community, go to www.vesther.co to learn more.
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend, leave us a review and don't forget to hit the subscribe button. If you are ready to take your career and business to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We know that hiring managers and recruiters are
biased.
There was a recent survey thatwas done in the Financial Times
that said that around 50% ofrecruiters thought that 57% was
quote too old to be hired.
So I mean, that's recruiters,that's HR.
They should know better, right?
I would expect more bias fromhiring managers.
However, another survey saidthat 42% of hiring managers were
(00:22):
biased against candidates basedon age.
That's where we are in society,so it's not if, but when you
will be judged based on your age.
That's just the uncomfortabletruth.
50% of people, according to theWorld Health Organization, are
ageist and harbor ageist beliefs, and there's a reason for that.
It's been drilled into us bythis narrative that's in the
media, that's in society, in ourculture.
(00:43):
My own children will say, mom,you're old, like it's a diss,
right and it's ridiculous, andI'm like I didn't teach you this
.
A couple of weeks ago I waswatching Alvin and the Chipmunks
with them on Netflix and therewas so much ageist,
stereotypical bias injected intothat kids programming.
So, like it starts, youngAgeism is something that will
touch everybody.
It will touch the young, itwill touch the older, the
(01:05):
younger, the older.
It's going to get us all, andso we need to just be aware of
it and try to shift ourmentality.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
In this episode we talk about ageism at work with
Maureen Wiley-Klau, host of theacclaimed podcast it Gets Late
Early.
In it we unpack the uniquechallenges women face as we
progress in our career and wealso share actionable strategies
for overcoming age-relatedobstacles and redefining our
career trajectories at any age.
For our guest's full bio andshow notes, go to wwwvestherco.
(01:39):
Forward slash podcast.
Slash podcast.
This episode is brought to youby Vest, a peer network for
women professionals andinvestment fund investing in
women-led companies, buildingsolutions in the care economy
and future of work.
If you enjoy the episode, sharewith a friend and don't forget
to leave us a review.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
with Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
(02:02):
episode.
If you want to learn more aboutjoining our peer community, go
to wwwvastrco.
What led you to focus on thiswork and why does it matter so
much to you?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, I want to.
I want to start, but start bysaying no career path is really
truly linear, and my mind is aperfect example of that.
And I even left out my briefforay into the law.
So I was a paralegal evenbefore I was a journalist.
So all that is to say, I reallykind of fell into my work in
tech and started climbing thecorporate ladder, doing what we
were all told we should do,which is keep on gunning for the
(02:35):
next position and climbing thatladder.
And I was at this tech companyand at age 37, my colleague
called me a dino and I was like,oh my gosh.
And the reality was, when Ilooked around, he wasn't really
wrong.
I was one of the oldest peopleat the organization and the only
people really who are olderthan I was were at the director,
(02:56):
senior director, vp and C-suitelevels, and I thought that's
insane.
How is that possible?
Why is this the case?
And I started asking aroundbecause I was curious.
I was like, is anyone elseseeing this?
Because I realized when I did aretrospective analysis, even at
my past companies that weremarket leaders, like Bloomberg
and SAP Concur, I'd noticed thesame thing.
(03:16):
So it wasn't just what I saw atthis VC-backed startup, which
you might kind of associate witha potentially younger workforce
right Based on tons ofstereotypes and just the way the
startup ecosystem tends to work.
And what I found is that I wasfar from the only one thinking
about this.
It was on everybody's mind.
Aging out was a thing, and yetno one was talking about it, and
(03:37):
that struck me as bizarre,especially when we were talking
all about inclusion anddiversity, equity and inclusion
initiatives.
And so it led me down the pathof researching it, and what I
found was pretty staggering, andit was the fact that 92% of
organizations fail to recognizeage as a characteristic in their
organization.
And so I kept getting deeperand deeper into the work and
(03:59):
learning more and more, and itjust struck me as the oddest
thing that we have thisnarrative and this stereotype
and this bias against people,depending on what year they
happen to have been born, likewe're all the oldest we've ever
been right now and the youngestwe'll ever be right now.
So it just makes no sense.
And you know, in this superweird world that's so divisive,
(04:20):
it's the one thing we kind ofall share.
We're all getting older everyminute together.
And so you know, I wasapproaching my 40th birthday and
I thought you know what?
Why not go for it?
I've lived long enough to knowthat things will work out and
I'll figure it out.
And so I put it out into theworld, and I'm very glad that I
did.
I would have lived with a lot ofregret had I not, and in fact
(04:41):
that's actually the book that Iread that got me to the point
where I was ready to take theleap.
Because, by the way, I know Ithink Kristen was saying she's
planning to launch a podcast.
It's going to be scary, it'sgoing to be super vulnerable.
You're going to be, frankly,probably a little embarrassed.
I know I was.
I was like, what will peoplethink?
But the reason I was able totake the leap was not only just
(05:02):
my lived experience knowingthings will work out and the sky
won't fall but also readingthis book by Daniel Pink called
the Power of Regret, and hisbook showed me that one of the
biggest regrets that people haveat the end of their lives are
what are called boldness regrets.
So a lack of action, inaction,right, something you could have
done, that you elected not to,and what I couldn't live with
(05:25):
was the thought I would neverknow what could have been if I
had launched this podcast, andthat's what drove me to do it
and fast forward to tomorrowwhen I interview Daniel Pink.
It's kind of a beautiful fullcircle moment, so I kind of went
in a lot of differentdirections there, but hopefully
that somewhat answered yourquestion.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
No, that's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much.
And yeah, what a full circle.
I can't wait to listen to thatepisode.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I'm really excited for it.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
One of the things that, when we were preparing for
this session, that just struckus, the whole team, when we were
reading the stats, is thatresearch indicates that 80% of
women experience ageism at work.
Yet, as you mentioned I canremember the actual quote that
you said over 90 percent orsomething, ageism in the
(06:13):
workplace.
It's not even pinpointed assomething that we should be
intentional about.
Tell us what are some of themost subtle ways you've
experienced ageism showing up atwork, like for young people,
but also for people over 40.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And that's a really important call out because
really ageism is a bias againstpeople based on their
chronological age.
So it can go against youngpeople, it can go against old
people, older people I like tosay older instead of young.
Young I should say younger andolder.
That's better.
I'm trying to work on that.
It's been drilled into us bysociety, right, we say these
things and we don't even give ita second thought.
(06:49):
But you know, first andforemost, it's important to
recognize that we all have beenbrought up in an ageist culture.
50% of people, according to theWorld Health Organization, are
ageist and harbor ageist beliefs.
And there's a reason for that.
It's been drilled into us bythis narrative that's in the
media, that's in society, in ourculture, and so we all have to
(07:09):
recognize that we have this.
I mean, I think 50% of thosepeople are lying.
I think everyone's a little bitageist because it's been
drilled into us.
My own children will say, mom,you're old, like it's a diss,
right, and it's ridiculous, andI'm like I didn't teach you this
.
But then, for example, a coupleof weeks ago, I was watching
Elvin and the Chipmunks withthem on Netflix and there was so
much ageist, stereotypical biasinjected into that kids
(07:31):
programming, so like it startsyoung and it's really
problematic.
So it's everywhere and we havea ton of internal work to do to
get ourselves out of it.
And again, people don't evenknow what's wrong.
People casually throw outage-related bias and stereotypes
all the time and they thinknothing of it.
They think it's totally openseason.
So that's the first thing torecognize.
(07:51):
But ultimately, ageism issomething that will touch
everybody.
It will touch the young, itwill touch the older, the
younger, the older.
It's going to get us all, andso we need to just be aware of
it and try to shift ourmentality.
So, yeah, 80% of people, as yousaid, 80% of women experience
this in the workplace.
(08:12):
Other surveys have shown peopleacross all genders say 90% have
seen or experienced workplacediscrimination.
It's a really prominent issue.
That is just kind of theelephant in the room that people
for some reason aren't willingto touch, and so it's something
that I think we can't turn ourbacks on.
It's something we have to focuson, especially as our
(08:33):
demographics are shiftingrapidly towards having an older
workforce.
So that's just the reality, andthe companies that embrace
older workers and employ peopleacross all generations, those
are the ones that are going towin, and there's a lot of
research behind what theproductivity and innovation
potential is forintergenerational teams.
So it's really a mandate forcompanies.
(08:54):
They can't just continue goingon the way they have and
marginalizing older workers,because those are the pool of
workers we're going to have todraw from.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So it's, it's critical.
Yeah, yeah, for sure I, I I'vebeen privileged enough that I've
had a lot of friends and Idon't say I love that you said,
you know, trying to catchourselves with the narrative and
the societal norms that we'vegrown up with.
I don't say older, I say wiserwomen.
You know like I'm alwayssurrounded myself with wiser
women and one of the things thatthey've always shared, like one
(09:25):
subtle example of what they say, is that people just make
assumptions that after you know55, say like they don't want to
look for exciting newopportunities, to push career
transitions or to continue tocontribute and they're like, hey
, I still feel young and excitedand like ready to go and ready
to start companies or ready tomake a complete career shift.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
And that can come up in the workplace all the time.
I had a guest from the companyTextio that works on bias in the
workplace.
They do performance reviews,anti-bias training and there's a
software that goes in and helpsreduce the amount of
discriminatory language withinjob descriptions as well, and
she came on the show and shesaid that you know, it can show
(10:09):
up in ways like not giving anassignment to an older person in
the organization.
That would be groundbreaking,or something that would stretch
them, giving them sort of moreof what she called the
babysitting responsibilities,right.
So kind of letting the youngerstars put forward that work that
will make them, you know, pushthrough the organization and
grab all these accolades, justassuming that they wouldn't want
(10:32):
those roles right.
And you know the wordresponsible is used to describe
people over 40, like a crazyamount of times over 40 versus
under 40.
And so it's like the way wethink the language that we use
in these performance reviews andwhatnot it all reflects these
biases and people don'tnecessarily see them as wrong.
(10:53):
They don't notice them.
It's just really it is verysubtle and it can be, you know,
writing something like hungry ina job description.
We know that that's codedlanguage for young like no one.
And I look at these jobdescriptions for tech companies
sometimes and I laugh becauseit's like what 40 plus year old
is going to see a jobdescription that says like young
(11:14):
, hungry or, excuse me, hungry,ninja rockstar, and think that's
me?
It's like it doesn't compute.
So we're precluding certainpeople from applying to these
jobs, so we're just making surethat the pool is even smaller
than it should be by thelanguage we use.
It's important to reallyconsider all of that as you're
(11:35):
putting these things together.
So it can be extremely subtleand, again, people don't even
know that it's wrong.
Great example Just yesterday ora couple of days ago, I was sent
this screenshot by someone inmy audience on LinkedIn and it
was a Slack emoji, sort ofsearch result, and he had
written tired and what came upwasn't like someone yawning,
(11:58):
wasn't snoozing, wasn't a bed,wasn't any of that.
It was people with white hair.
No joke, it was like the faceemoji with white hair.
And I was like, oh my gosh,that is a perfect encapsulation
of what unconscious biases andhow subtly this can come in.
And I'll tell you when I did apost about it on LinkedIn
yesterday, it went prettybonkers, but there were plenty
of people who were like you'remaking this problem up, this is
(12:19):
not an issue.
What are you talking about?
Who cares?
Like making light of it, andthe reality is those sorts of
things get into our subconsciousand we think of older people as
tired.
We don't give them thepromotion, we don't consider
them for the job.
And I also want to underscoresomething like culture fit.
I think is a really toxicconcept, because what that means
(12:40):
is more people like us, andwhat it can be used to do is
discriminate against people whoare different.
Right, and it creates thesehomogenous work cultures.
So I think we need to shiftfrom culture culture fit to
culture add.
So lots of ways.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I love that, yeah, and I'm just wondering from Vest
members that are here, if youhave an example of how you felt,
the subtle or very intentionalyou know.
If you have an experience thatyou'd like to share, please put
it in the chat, because we wouldlove to just, you know, have
examples that we can relate to,because I think that one of the
(13:18):
ways in which we combat this isjust by having conversations,
right, because I do think that alot of times like and again
it's like cross generational I,you know, you, we've we're
talking about wiser people butI've also experienced, I
remember, as a youngprofessional, I don't know how
(13:38):
many times I was told wait yourturn, even though I was
performing, I was delivering,wait your turn, it's not your
turn yet.
You have to wait, you know.
So I'm just curious if any VASTmembers have any additional
examples that you can share ofhow you've experienced this
challenge at work.
(13:59):
And, maureen, you mentioned someof that pushback right, like,
share with us, maybe, and it canbe from your own experience of,
from people that you've hostedin your podcast.
What are some of the ways thatyou would coach women to call it
out when they see it or pushback with the hard thing is like
(14:25):
without you know, because, aswomen, the other thing that we
have to deal with is like justoverall bias, right, and so when
we pull out something or whenwe pronounce something, it's
always like, oh well, you're nowyou're being confrontational or
now you're making up a problemthat doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Right, exactly, it's so.
It's so challenging.
We walk a tightrope every day,don't we?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So how do we call it out and how do we push back
without risking our careers?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, I think one person who came on my show had a
really brilliant example of howshe pushed back in a way that
wasn't super confrontational,but she just basically called it
out.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with the way the
interview process goes at Amazon, but it is man, it's grueling
I've been through it before.
It's wild.
And they actually do it in sucha way so as to try to prevent
bias from seeping in, which is alaudable concept.
But this one candidate had comethrough this.
(15:11):
This woman was a recruiter atAmazon who was on my show and
this man had come through theinterview pipeline and he was
passing everything with flyingcolor colors.
He was, you know, checkingevery box.
He was fantastic, he was in hissixties.
Okay, so they all after theseinterviews across the team there
were like 10 interviews orsomething, because that's what
Amazon does they all came into aroom and that's when people
basically said like I'm inclinedto hire or I'm not, and they
(15:35):
went around the room, startedtalking about this candidate and
these things started coming uplike Ooh, do you think he might
get bored here?
Oh, maybe he's a little bitoverqualified, I don't know.
And she just saw this and shewas like, wait a minute, this is
the perfect candidate.
And so she just she stood upand she said hey, I'm going to
say something that I'm not sureany of you are comfortable
saying.
(15:55):
But are you concerned about hisage?
Because we can't do that.
That's protected characteristicand we have to evaluate him on
the basis of his merits and hispotential and that's not
something we can do.
And as soon as she said that,everyone kind of realized, oh
gosh, that is actually what itis.
(16:16):
So she called out theunconscious bias in a way that
wasn't accusatory, but she justwas like, hey, we can't do that.
And it flipped the switch andthey ended up hiring him and he
stayed for longer than theaverage person's tenure which is
another fun fact about olderworkers is their tenure actually
is longer.
And there's a lot of concernaround oh well, maybe that
person will retire or whatever.
But the reality is that's notreally how it goes with the data
(16:39):
.
But she made a huge differencein that organization because
this guy was an excellentemployee and she made a huge
difference in his life just bycalling it out.
And I think you're absolutelyright that we women do have to
walk that tightrope and we haveto do so in like a very
judicious, like non-hostile way.
And even when we're not beinghostile, we're sometimes accused
of being hostile, which is fun,and I wish I had the silver
(17:01):
bullet answer for that one.
But I think, just asking peopleto pause and consider, you know,
for example, if I remember backin my own career, when I was at
a tech company, there was thiscandidate who's excellent for
the role.
We needed somebody with moretenure, someone who understood
the new world into which we weregoing was a new initiative, a
startup initiative within thisestablished company that I was
(17:22):
in charge of, and one of thesepeople came through and he was
just amazing.
And then there was this otherperson who was great, but he was
probably 15 years younger thanthis guy, a lot less experience.
You guess who gets the role?
It's the younger guy, right,and it was because he was a
culture fit.
So I was not in a position atthat point where I could really
(17:42):
understand that that was whatwas going on.
But now, looking back, I'm likethat's 100% what it was.
He wasn't the culture fit andhe wasn't fitting into sort of
the youthful, dominant cultureof the organization and that was
it.
So I think even having theconversation around culture fit,
culture ad versus culture fitcould be a way to do it.
But also sometimes, sometimesyou just got to call it out and
(18:05):
you obviously if the law is onyour side, in which case you
know, in this case which it isyou have that level of
protection-ish.
Allegedly, we can get into someof the downfalls of the Age
Discrimination and EmploymentAct and how it fails us
sometimes later in thisconversation if we want to go
(18:25):
down that path, but there aresituations in which you just
have to address it head on.
But I think trying to create anorganization that has
intergenerational collaborationand communication is one really,
really good way to combat this,because we're all so much more
alike than we are different.
Everybody likes flexibility intheir workplace, right?
(18:46):
That's not bad for older peopleor younger people or better for
one or the other.
It's just great for everyone.
So we need to have theopportunity to speak across
generations, which is somethingthat most organizations today
are doing a really terrible jobwith, and it's holding us back
from having the understandingthat we're all in this thing
together and we don't need topit generation against
(19:07):
generation.
So it's just let's get peoplecollaborating.
Let's get people in mentorshipopportunities and you kind of
hinted at this earlier, butmentorship goes both ways.
I have a Gen Z social mediaeditor, slash consultant, who is
an incredible teacher, whobasically coaches and is often
(19:30):
almost a therapist for me, andhe's so incredibly wise.
I learned so much from him andI like to think he learned a lot
from me too.
So it's not one directional,it's not simply like the elders
passing down their wisdom, it isboth ways, and I think the
sooner we realize this, thebetter our workplaces will be.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I love that and I love the call to action and like
let's assess ourselves firstand make sure you know we did
share an exercise too in ourMonday newsletter, if you missed
it, on how to assess our ownbiases and see if we have
applied some of these ageismourselves right, when we're
evaluating people not for theirability to perform, but rather
(20:12):
because we make assumptionsbased on age.
And I love how you said, youknow, let's not pit generations
against each other, let's worktogether to and approach each
other with a curiosity level anda learning mindset, rather than
like let's put people in boxes.
One of my biggest pet peeves iswhen I go to and somebody
mentioned I'm like kind oflooking at the chat and we're
(20:35):
going to take a minute to likekind of do an evaluation of the
chat.
But one of my pet peeves iswhen I go to traditional, uh
produced events and immediatelypeople start making fun of Gen
Zs or the younger generation orimmediately said, oh well,
they're lacy, they just don'thave the same work ethic, you
know, and then they just puteverybody on the same bucket,
(20:56):
right, so yeah, so I love thatyou kind of call that out in
your in your comments.
I want to take a minute becauseit's been hard for me to keep up
with the chat and I know thatthere's been a lot of commentary
, which I love.
Gabby, do you want to keep usup?
Is there something that we needto address in the chat or
(21:16):
somebody has any questions oranything that we should take a
minute and respond to?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, we had a question come up here, but I
wanted to point out just some ofthe members shared kind of
their experience.
I know Srajita mentioned justthe double standard as not only
ageism but also for men andwomen, as younger men referred
to as younger gentlemen whilewomen are referred to as girl.
And then we also had anothermember that mentioned she's the
(21:49):
youngest partner on her team.
So even though she has a decadeof experience, her partners
have over 400 or over 100,excuse me years of experience
and so sometimes she feels likeshe worries about speaking up in
that kind of context.
Another member just mentionedfor her it's come up in a few
(22:11):
ways over dependence on helpingwith onboarding and training,
being openly surprised when sheis open to new challenges and or
just making assumptions withouttalking to her about it.
But we did just have a newquestion in here.
I don't know if Christy wantsto unmute herself and ask, but
she just mentioned that she readabout taking off certain dates
(22:33):
on your resume, such asuniversity graduation.
Just thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, did you want to say anything about that?
I'm sorry, christy, did youwant to speak up or is that
sufficient?
That's sufficient.
Yeah, that's my question.
It's a good question.
It's one I hear often and I'msort of of two minds about it.
On one hand, I think if youreally need to get work right
away, absolutely, I mean, that'sthe reality.
(23:00):
We know that hiring managersand recruiters are biased.
There was a recent survey thatwas done in the Financial Times
that said that 50, around 50% ofrecruiters thought that 57 was
quote too old to be hired.
So I mean, that's recruiters,that's HR.
They should know better.
Right, I would expect more biasfrom hiring managers.
However, another survey saidthat 42% of hiring managers were
(23:23):
biased against candidates basedon age.
So I was shocked that it wasn'tmore for the hiring managers
and less for the recruiters.
But that's where we are insociety.
So it's not if, but when youwill be judged based on your age
.
That's just the uncomfortabletruth.
So if you need to help yourselfout and get more at bats, I
think it's a really good ideaactually to remove early
(23:44):
experience as much as I despisesaying that and graduation dates
.
That's just the reality we livein.
So I think we need to optimizefor what our current situation
is and build for a better future.
But then on the flip side, Iwill say if you have the
privilege of being choosier andtaking a little bit longer with
your job search, leave it all onthere, because we should be
(24:05):
proud of our experience and ourage is not something we should
apologize for.
Our age is an asset, not aliability, and so if you can go
forward with that mentality andfind the right organization that
values you for who you are andnot when you were born, that's
optimal, of course.
So I would also argue that alot of organizations that would
judge you based on age, thoseare not the ones that are a
(24:26):
long-term fit for you.
Those are not the places youwant to build a career.
But again, I just want to bereally clear.
I know sometimes we don't havethat sort of privilege to wait
and find the right thing.
Sometimes we just need to earnmoney.
So I see both sides on this one.
But generally speaking, givenwe live in an ageist world, I
advise people to and I try tomake my show fun and
(24:49):
lighthearted as much as possiblelaugh so we don't cry, kind of
thing.
So I tell them to Botox theirresume because it's just helpful
.
Now, that said, gen Z is havinga lot of trouble getting hired
right now, which is also deeplyunfair.
So things are tough on bothends of the spectrum, which is
also deeply unfair.
So you know, things are toughon both ends of the spectrum.
So you know, for Gen Z, I stillalso think, if you can, if you
are a very recent graduate, it'stough to put your college
(25:13):
graduation date on there right,for example.
But we also are operating in aplace where sometimes we just
have what we have.
We got to move forward with it,and our mindset and the way we
show up is critically important.
So if you come in with likeyour proverbial tail between
your legs and you're apologizingfor who you are, that energy is
not going to get you where youneed to go.
So show up with confidence, nomatter what age you are, and
just own your experience and tryto shift your own mindset,
(25:36):
because that is going to be thebest way for you to get a job at
any age.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
You talk a lot about career reinvention on your
podcast and we've actually wewere reviewing the data on VAST
We've launched in excuse me 2020.
So we've been operatingconsistently for four years now
and one of the things that weconsistently see is that most
women join the network primarilywhen they're experiencing a
(26:05):
career or life transition rightand they get that support system
.
And it's hard and we still verymuch struggle with career
transitions and reinventingourselves or staying true to you
know.
You don't necessarily have togo through a whole reinvention,
but how do you?
You know, how do you managepivots, whether they are,
(26:30):
there's a layoff or maybe youjust want to experience a
completely different career.
So what advice do you have forwomen who are experiencing a
pivot in their career?
How can they get back on trackif it's like not something that
they forecasted or wanted to gothrough a pivot necessarily, but
something unexpected?
(26:51):
How can they feel moreconfident about their next move?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I mean I think first we need to recognize that
the sort of old careertrajectory is not really what we
have in play anymore.
I mean, you don't spend 30years at one company and get a
gold watch at your retirementanymore.
That's just kind of not how theworld is working.
It's almost moving to more of agig economy type portfolio
career, and so I think, whetherwe like it or not, these sorts
(27:19):
of pivots are going to be thrustupon us and it's something we
just need to contend with.
So I guess I would first findcomfort in the fact that you're
far from alone.
I think people who join acommunity like this are doing
absolutely the right thing.
Because let me tell you, assomeone who's pivoted out of
corporate, this is lonely and itis hard and there are some days
when you're going to want toquit.
(27:39):
There's some days when you'regoing to want to scream at the
top of your lungs at how excitedyou are.
Like it's going to highs andlows are going to abound, and
having a community around toground you and to support you is
really critical.
So I applaud anyone who isgoing through this and joins
best to help get them throughRight.
I would say you know, all ofour life experience informs how
(28:03):
we show up in the workplace andyou can draw lessons from so
much that's happened in yourlife, even if you're moving into
a completely different arena,so people pivoting.
You know you might feel alittle uncomfortable, given you
don't have necessarily a ton ofexperience in a different
industry, but there are alwayslessons you can draw and apply
to this new opportunity and thisnew world from your life,
(28:25):
whether that's actually in theworkplace or outside of it.
So I would urge people toreally think a little bit more
openly and creatively about whatthey've done and draw
inferences from what they'vedone in the past that could then
be applied in the future.
And then I'd also, you know,one thing that's really helped
me is I've I've gotten througheverything that's been thrown in
(28:46):
my way right.
You know like I have 42 yearsof lived experience of figuring
it out and I draw confidencefrom that.
The other thing that you mightlaugh at that kind of gives me
confidence is I also havelearned over time.
No one really knows whatthey're doing.
We're all just trying to figureit out as we go, like no one is
a hundred percent ready foranything that they take on.
(29:07):
And women, I think and I knowI'm doing a broad generalization
here, but I'm in a group ofwomen, so you guys can hold me
accountable if you think I'mwrong but I feel as though women
in particular have a hard timewith imposter syndrome, and I've
seen this in my own work withmy, the social media consultant
I was talking to you about.
I mean, he has so muchconfidence and he goes forward
(29:30):
with just this pride and thisassuredness that is.
It's attractive Like you, yousee it and you see what works
right.
So I actually I was laughingrecently because I saw someone
post I think it was on threadsabout how they would never work
with a male executive coach or amale coach in any regard,
because men don't understandtheir lives, and I was like,
(29:50):
actually, sometimes it's goodbecause they can flip a
narrative in a way for you andempower you, because they embody
that in their lives.
I don't know where they get itand maybe it's the system you
know being a lot more favorableto men in general, but it's
something that I have used asinspiration and I've tried to
carry that through.
Does it always work?
No, but it is a good sort ofmentality, and I also want to
(30:14):
say women.
When it comes to money, we havea hard time.
Again, broad generalization,but money's hard for us, and
it's been really helpful for meto see how men frame money
discussions and conversations.
And especially if you'repivoting into something new,
you're going to need to makemoney.
That's going to be important,and so you have to figure out
(30:35):
even if it's something newer foryou.
You have to figure out how toconfidently ask for money and
not devalue yourself, right?
So goodness, yeah, we're goingto get through everything.
You have a lived experiencethat proves it.
Take a deep breath.
No one knows what's going on.
You'll figure it out and get acommunity.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
So full disclosure I am one of those wiser candidates
that Erica talked about.
I loved that language, Lookingfor a next role, and I'm really
privileged to have some time tofind the right one.
(31:15):
For candidates like me to seekcertifications or
micro-credentials to eitherdevelop new skills, emphasize
skills I already have, or justeven show a willingness to learn
those new skills despite beingwiser and if so, how do I
evaluate best sources for thosekinds of credentials?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
you know best sources for those kinds of credentials.
First of all, brilliant thoughtright, because you are
basically, by getting thesecredentials and by actively
learning and upskilling andreskilling, you're showing
people that you're not done yet,that you still have so much to
learn and grow, and that'sreally, really important.
I think that is something that,if you can demonstrate it by
getting these sorts ofcredentials, that's only going
to benefit you.
(32:01):
So I highly recommend that youdo that.
I think be thoughtful about thetypes of skills that you want
to get under your belt.
For example, I think you know,in the world we live in, ai
skills would be reallyimperative for you to develop,
and that just really kind ofpushes down that stereotype that
you know wiser, wiser peopledon't want to learn new things
(32:22):
or stuck in their ways.
So I think that is a great wayfor for you to have demonstrable
proof that that's not the wayyou operate.
I would say also, if you'relooking for new roles, try as
much as you can to go back intoyour work experience and
showcase the times when you havelearned something and taken
something from.
You know soup to nuts and andbuilt something from scratch,
because, again, that shows awillingness to learn and grow.
(32:44):
So emphasizing that in yourpast is really important as well
.
And as far as identifying theright places, that's a great
question, and I'm actuallylooking to find a person to come
on the show to talkspecifically about upskilling
and reskilling, because I thinkthat's a really, really critical
component of what we all needto do at any age, because the
(33:04):
world is changing so fast.
So we want to make sure that weare showcasing that on our
LinkedIn, on our resumes andjust in the way we show up in
interviews.
So, yeah, you're absolutelyspot on doing that.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Ah, Maureen, thank you Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I do think it's important to support women, you
know, in figuring out how toincrease performance, how to
show up at work, how to upskill,all of those things.
We talked about the impostersyndrome.
I have my own thoughts aboutthat, because I do think that a
lot of the problems, as we'vetalked about here, are systemic
(33:41):
in nature and have to do a lotmore with the corporate
workplace environment, which wasnot designed with us in mind or
with a lot of people in mind, amatter of fact, and so I'm
always looking for, like, okay,what advice do we have for women
right on how do we navigatethese challenges better?
But also, how do we hold thesystem accountable right?
(34:03):
And I earlier in the discussionyou mentioned how the labor
laws were failing us and maybesome of the HR structures are
failing us.
Can you give us a couple ofexamples on how that is and
maybe how we can fix it or putit out there for anybody to have
that has ideas?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I mean, yeah, the system is definitely failing us
and it is failing all of us not,you know, exactly at the same
level, but it is failing all ofus and I think, um, you know,
allyship is really important.
So making sure and this isactually one thing that I think
is really, um, the sort ofperverse beauty of ageism is it
does get all of us, and so itgets men too.
I've heard horrific stories ofmen just having their whole
(34:45):
lives blown apart, and you know,a lot of men base their entire
self-worth on their ability toprovide and their careers and
whatnot, and it really doesdecimate them too.
So this is something we can allkind of arm ourselves together
and fight.
So I think that's a really kindof somewhat nice thing about
ageism is that we can all bandtogether.
So the system is definitelybroken for sure.
(35:06):
I mean, since 1967, we've hadfederal legislation that
protects people over the age of40 from facing discrimination in
the workplace, and yet I turned40 and the only thing it
protected me from was inbound,unsolicited requests to go
interview at companies fromrecruiters.
Like it dropped off a cliff thesecond I turned 40.
So I know it's real.
(35:26):
It can't be explained only by apoor market, it was just a
steep decline.
It was wild.
So I know that it's happeningand I think there are biases
that are programmed into ATSsystems, into recruiters
algorithms, into what they'reseeking, all of that.
So it's very real.
So the law exists and yet thesethings still happen.
(35:49):
Age discrimination is still thetoughest form of discrimination
to prove.
The Supreme Court decided acase back in the nineties that
made it so that it had to be thewhat's called but for cause for
someone's either termination orlack of promotion or lack of
hiring, and that means that itcan't be a part of a mixed
motive case in any way, shape orform.
It has to be the sole reasonthat you had that adverse
(36:11):
decision happen to you.
So it's incredibly difficult toprove.
So these cases there are tonsof claims every year and very
few of them actually move in theright direction, and the
settlements are often not quitewhat they should be.
So the deck is certainlystacked against us when it comes
to legal avenues, unfortunately.
But there is bipartisanlegislation in the works that
(36:33):
would reduce the burden of proofto that of other forms of
discrimination, so there's alittle bit of hope there.
It's bipartisan, so, hey, therewe go.
So I have a little bit of hopethere.
There's also recent legislationthat happened in the state of
Colorado in July of 2024, calledthe Job Application Fairness
Act, and what that does is itensures that no company is
allowed to ask for any ageidentification markers on your
(36:56):
application, so they can't askyou for your date of birth, they
can't ask you for when yougraduated, so on and so forth,
which is great because it levelsthe playing field and it
enables people to just get intointerviews on the basis of what
their accomplishments andpotential are, which is really
the way it should be.
So I'm actually having someoneon the show who helps push that
through.
Her name's Janine Vanderberg.
She's awesome.
(37:16):
She's part of an organizationcalled Changing the Narrative in
Colorado, and so I'm going tobring her on the show and figure
out how we can push thisforward and actually drive
people to do a little activismhere and get this to go.
I think it should go across all50 states personally.
So there are certain things likethat happening, but the system
still is not what it needs to be, and I think that's because we
(37:38):
have such a casual entrenchedageism in our culture.
There's so many stereotypesthat are just not even
considered to be a problem, andyou don't have to look any
farther than just media memes,et cetera, the generational
warfare to know why, because tous it's just nothing.
So it's a cultural shift thatneeds to happen, and I think
we're seeing some of that.
I'm actually quite hopeful thatthere's going to be a change,
(38:01):
and I'm already seeing the signsof it.
Of course, I'm on the lookoutfor it, doing what I do, but I
really do have hope that it'sshifting, and I mean look at
Wiser Than Me by JuliaLouis-Dreyfus Elaine from
Seinfeld that was the toppodcast in 2023, for example.
So there is an interest inseeing people represented across
all ages and people into theirolder years as being held up as
(38:23):
examples, which is what we need,right, and what I want to see
more of is the more relatabletype of person, rather than
these Hollywood stars, right,because I'm sorry, I love JLo,
but she's not very relatable tome, right, and so I want to see
people doing things in theirlater years that are not
necessarily Hollywood stars.
But I really do think it'sshifting.
(38:44):
I truly do 100%.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, I can't wait to check out that new legislation.
That's fantastic and I agreewith you, it should be
implemented across.
I mean, if we're serious aboutperformance, yeah, and hiring
the best.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
It's still for companies and, at the end of the
day, no company or industry isgoing to make a shift towards
intergenerational employment andcollaboration unless they
realize that it's going to makethem more money.
That's the system we work inand the reality is there is
evidence to support that adiverse workforce across all
facets makes you more money andincreases productivity and
innovation.
So that's the sort of researchthat I'm hoping continues to be
(39:21):
done, because that is, I believe, the only thing that's going to
move the needle.
My least favorite term, butyeah.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
We always close this Maureen with, give us a couple
of very tangible practicaltakeaways, right Like what can
we be doing, either asindividuals, on how we, you know
, combat this on our ownpersonal experience, or how do
we build more inclusive andflexible environments for where
(39:52):
ageism doesn't play a role in,you know, putting people in
buckets or stereotyping?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I think the first thing we need to do is work on
ourselves.
We have a crazy amount ofinternalized ageism.
I mean, I know I do, I'mworking through it for sure.
As women, we are told that theworst thing we can do is get
older.
We're hawked anti-aging creamssince you know what?
We're 10 years old in thisculture.
It's crazy.
So we have to really work onthat.
It starts with each of us,because we all bring ourselves
(40:20):
to work and so we have theseembedded narratives and biases
that we bring with us and theyare going to seep into the
workplace without question.
So start with yourself, startquestioning that.
Try to increase yourintergenerational collaboration,
communication, friendship.
All of that helps.
I mean, gosh, your mind justgets blown when you actually
talk to people who are differentfrom you and you realize again
(40:42):
how much more similar we arethan different.
And you stop typecasting peoplewhen you get to know them right
.
So it's increased your circle,if you can.
I know it's a little bit hard todo in a lot of our society, but
we should try to intentionallywork to create friendships and
opportunities to get to knowpeople of different ages.
Highly recommend that.
And then I would say and thisgoes back to somewhat of the
(41:04):
internal narrative, right?
But if you can shift yourmindset to see your age as an
asset rather than a liability,that's going to help you.
So, so much, and just don'tapologize for who you are.
It's so ludicrous for us tothink differently of people
based on when they happen tohave been born.
We're all on this thing calledlife together and we just happen
to be at different points onour own personal journeys, and
(41:25):
so just cut it out right.
Try to view it as the asset thatit is and the relationships
that you make along the way.
By the way, this is a hugebenefit to people who are older
workers that, sadly, youngerworkers don't have, and my heart
breaks for them.
Your network that you've builtincludes your past bosses, your
past colleagues, your pastclients, your past vendors.
(41:45):
You know a ton of people byvirtue of just existing longer.
Leverage them, almost.
I mean, it's a crazy.
I can't remember the percentageoff the top of my head, but
it's a huge percentage ofworkers that are placed through
network connections versus justapplying online, right?
So leverage your network isgoing to get you farther faster
and you have that benefit.
(42:05):
So see it as the asset it is.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
I love that and can't agree with it more.
And it applies not just tocareer environments right and
getting higher and promoted, butit also investment right.
If you're an entrepreneur andyou want to get investment, it's
through networks.
It's not what you know, but whoyou know.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
So true.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
It's actually a fair advantage for older people.
So I feel you know youngerpeople.
I hope they can get pulled ininto mentorship and circles and
be really intentional aboutexpanding their network, because
it's tough work and you justkind of naturally get it as you
get older.
So absolutely.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
How can members or listeners listen to your podcast
but also get connected with you?
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, so certainly via LinkedIn, which I put in
there and I believe you sent outelsewhere.
I'm also on Instagram atMaureen W Clough.
You can find me at it gets lateearlycom.
All the show episodes are there.
It's also on every singlepodcast platform, including
YouTube.
And yeah, I have a newsletteras well that goes out a couple
(43:06):
of times a month.
I'm trying to increase that butalso not overwhelm.
You know it's a tough balance,but, and also I'm busy.
So, but all those places aregreat spots to be and I hope I'm
going to be out on the roadmore.
I just recently went to lastweek went to San Francisco, and
AARP sponsored a conversationwith their chief information
officer about the power of themulti-generational workforce.
(43:28):
So I'm hoping to do more thingslike that on the road because,
as you indicated in our openingmoments like it's so great to be
with people and the communityand it was just the most
gratifying thing to be aroundothers.
So, yeah, hope to do more ofthat in 2025.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwvestherco and applytoday.
We know that hiring managers and recruiters are
biased.
There was a recent survey thatwas done in the Financial Times
that said that around 50% ofrecruiters thought that 57% was
quote too old to be hired.
So I mean, that's recruiters,that's HR.
They should know better, right?
I would expect more bias fromhiring managers.
However, another survey saidthat 42% of hiring managers were
(00:22):
biased against candidates basedon age.
That's where we are in society,so it's not if, but when you
will be judged based on your age.
That's just the uncomfortabletruth.
50% of people, according to theWorld Health Organization, are
ageist and harbor ageist beliefs, and there's a reason for that.
It's been drilled into us bythis narrative that's in the
media, that's in society, in ourculture.
(00:43):
My own children will say, mom,you're old, like it's a diss,
right and it's ridiculous, andI'm like I didn't teach you this
.
A couple of weeks ago I waswatching Alvin and the Chipmunks
with them on Netflix and therewas so much ageist,
stereotypical bias injected intothat kids programming.
So, like it starts, youngAgeism is something that will
touch everybody.
It will touch the young, itwill touch the older, the
(01:05):
younger, the older.
It's going to get us all, andso we need to just be aware of
it and try to shift ourmentality.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
In this episode we talk about ageism at work with
Maureen Wiley-Klau, host of theacclaimed podcast it Gets Late
Early.
In it we unpack the uniquechallenges women face as we
progress in our career and wealso share actionable strategies
for overcoming age-relatedobstacles and redefining our
career trajectories at any age.
For our guest's full bio andshow notes, go to wwwvestherco.
(01:39):
Forward slash podcast.
Slash podcast.
This episode is brought to youby Vest, a peer network for
women professionals andinvestment fund investing in
women-led companies, buildingsolutions in the care economy
and future of work.
If you enjoy the episode, sharewith a friend and don't forget
to leave us a review.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
with Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
(02:02):
episode.
If you want to learn more aboutjoining our peer community, go
to wwwvastrco.
What led you to focus on thiswork and why does it matter so
much to you?
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Well, I want to.
I want to start, but start bysaying no career path is really
truly linear, and my mind is aperfect example of that.
And I even left out my briefforay into the law.
So I was a paralegal evenbefore I was a journalist.
So all that is to say, I reallykind of fell into my work in
tech and started climbing thecorporate ladder, doing what we
were all told we should do,which is keep on gunning for the
(02:35):
next position and climbing thatladder.
And I was at this tech companyand at age 37, my colleague
called me a dino and I was like,oh my gosh.
And the reality was, when Ilooked around, he wasn't really
wrong.
I was one of the oldest peopleat the organization and the only
people really who are olderthan I was were at the director,
(02:56):
senior director, vp and C-suitelevels, and I thought that's
insane.
How is that possible?
Why is this the case?
And I started asking aroundbecause I was curious.
I was like, is anyone elseseeing this?
Because I realized when I did aretrospective analysis, even at
my past companies that weremarket leaders, like Bloomberg
and SAP Concur, I'd noticed thesame thing.
(03:16):
So it wasn't just what I saw atthis VC-backed startup, which
you might kind of associate witha potentially younger workforce
right Based on tons ofstereotypes and just the way the
startup ecosystem tends to work.
And what I found is that I wasfar from the only one thinking
about this.
It was on everybody's mind.
Aging out was a thing, and yetno one was talking about it, and
(03:37):
that struck me as bizarre,especially when we were talking
all about inclusion anddiversity, equity and inclusion
initiatives.
And so it led me down the pathof researching it, and what I
found was pretty staggering, andit was the fact that 92% of
organizations fail to recognizeage as a characteristic in their
organization.
And so I kept getting deeperand deeper into the work and
(03:59):
learning more and more, and itjust struck me as the oddest
thing that we have thisnarrative and this stereotype
and this bias against people,depending on what year they
happen to have been born, likewe're all the oldest we've ever
been right now and the youngestwe'll ever be right now.
So it just makes no sense.
And you know, in this superweird world that's so divisive,
(04:20):
it's the one thing we kind ofall share.
We're all getting older everyminute together.
And so you know, I wasapproaching my 40th birthday and
I thought you know what?
Why not go for it?
I've lived long enough to knowthat things will work out and
I'll figure it out.
And so I put it out into theworld, and I'm very glad that I
did.
I would have lived with a lot ofregret had I not, and in fact
(04:41):
that's actually the book that Iread that got me to the point
where I was ready to take theleap.
Because, by the way, I know Ithink Kristen was saying she's
planning to launch a podcast.
It's going to be scary, it'sgoing to be super vulnerable.
You're going to be, frankly,probably a little embarrassed.
I know I was.
I was like, what will peoplethink?
But the reason I was able totake the leap was not only just
(05:02):
my lived experience knowingthings will work out and the sky
won't fall but also readingthis book by Daniel Pink called
the Power of Regret, and hisbook showed me that one of the
biggest regrets that people haveat the end of their lives are
what are called boldness regrets.
So a lack of action, inaction,right, something you could have
done, that you elected not to,and what I couldn't live with
(05:25):
was the thought I would neverknow what could have been if I
had launched this podcast, andthat's what drove me to do it
and fast forward to tomorrowwhen I interview Daniel Pink.
It's kind of a beautiful fullcircle moment, so I kind of went
in a lot of differentdirections there, but hopefully
that somewhat answered yourquestion.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
No, that's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much.
And yeah, what a full circle.
I can't wait to listen to thatepisode.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I'm really excited for it.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
One of the things that, when we were preparing for
this session, that just struckus, the whole team, when we were
reading the stats, is thatresearch indicates that 80% of
women experience ageism at work.
Yet, as you mentioned I canremember the actual quote that
you said over 90 percent orsomething, ageism in the
(06:13):
workplace.
It's not even pinpointed assomething that we should be
intentional about.
Tell us what are some of themost subtle ways you've
experienced ageism showing up atwork, like for young people,
but also for people over 40.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And that's a really important call out because
really ageism is a bias againstpeople based on their
chronological age.
So it can go against youngpeople, it can go against old
people, older people I like tosay older instead of young.
Young I should say younger andolder.
That's better.
I'm trying to work on that.
It's been drilled into us bysociety, right, we say these
things and we don't even give ita second thought.
(06:49):
But you know, first andforemost, it's important to
recognize that we all have beenbrought up in an ageist culture.
50% of people, according to theWorld Health Organization, are
ageist and harbor ageist beliefs.
And there's a reason for that.
It's been drilled into us bythis narrative that's in the
media, that's in society, in ourculture, and so we all have to
(07:09):
recognize that we have this.
I mean, I think 50% of thosepeople are lying.
I think everyone's a little bitageist because it's been
drilled into us.
My own children will say, mom,you're old, like it's a diss,
right, and it's ridiculous, andI'm like I didn't teach you this
.
But then, for example, a coupleof weeks ago, I was watching
Elvin and the Chipmunks withthem on Netflix and there was so
much ageist, stereotypical biasinjected into that kids
(07:31):
programming, so like it startsyoung and it's really
problematic.
So it's everywhere and we havea ton of internal work to do to
get ourselves out of it.
And again, people don't evenknow what's wrong.
People casually throw outage-related bias and stereotypes
all the time and they thinknothing of it.
They think it's totally openseason.
So that's the first thing torecognize.
(07:51):
But ultimately, ageism issomething that will touch
everybody.
It will touch the young, itwill touch the older, the
younger, the older.
It's going to get us all, andso we need to just be aware of
it and try to shift ourmentality.
So, yeah, 80% of people, as yousaid, 80% of women experience
this in the workplace.
(08:12):
Other surveys have shown peopleacross all genders say 90% have
seen or experienced workplacediscrimination.
It's a really prominent issue.
That is just kind of theelephant in the room that people
for some reason aren't willingto touch, and so it's something
that I think we can't turn ourbacks on.
It's something we have to focuson, especially as our
(08:33):
demographics are shiftingrapidly towards having an older
workforce.
So that's just the reality, andthe companies that embrace
older workers and employ peopleacross all generations, those
are the ones that are going towin, and there's a lot of
research behind what theproductivity and innovation
potential is forintergenerational teams.
So it's really a mandate forcompanies.
(08:54):
They can't just continue goingon the way they have and
marginalizing older workers,because those are the pool of
workers we're going to have todraw from.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So it's, it's critical.
Yeah, yeah, for sure I, I I'vebeen privileged enough that I've
had a lot of friends and Idon't say I love that you said,
you know, trying to catchourselves with the narrative and
the societal norms that we'vegrown up with.
I don't say older, I say wiserwomen.
You know like I'm alwayssurrounded myself with wiser
women and one of the things thatthey've always shared, like one
(09:25):
subtle example of what they say, is that people just make
assumptions that after you know55, say like they don't want to
look for exciting newopportunities, to push career
transitions or to continue tocontribute and they're like, hey
, I still feel young and excitedand like ready to go and ready
to start companies or ready tomake a complete career shift.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
And that can come up in the workplace all the time.
I had a guest from the companyTextio that works on bias in the
workplace.
They do performance reviews,anti-bias training and there's a
software that goes in and helpsreduce the amount of
discriminatory language withinjob descriptions as well, and
she came on the show and shesaid that you know, it can show
(10:09):
up in ways like not giving anassignment to an older person in
the organization.
That would be groundbreaking,or something that would stretch
them, giving them sort of moreof what she called the
babysitting responsibilities,right.
So kind of letting the youngerstars put forward that work that
will make them, you know, pushthrough the organization and
grab all these accolades, justassuming that they wouldn't want
(10:32):
those roles right.
And you know the wordresponsible is used to describe
people over 40, like a crazyamount of times over 40 versus
under 40.
And so it's like the way wethink the language that we use
in these performance reviews andwhatnot it all reflects these
biases and people don'tnecessarily see them as wrong.
(10:53):
They don't notice them.
It's just really it is verysubtle and it can be, you know,
writing something like hungry ina job description.
We know that that's codedlanguage for young like no one.
And I look at these jobdescriptions for tech companies
sometimes and I laugh becauseit's like what 40 plus year old
is going to see a jobdescription that says like young
(11:14):
, hungry or, excuse me, hungry,ninja rockstar, and think that's
me?
It's like it doesn't compute.
So we're precluding certainpeople from applying to these
jobs, so we're just making surethat the pool is even smaller
than it should be by thelanguage we use.
It's important to reallyconsider all of that as you're
(11:35):
putting these things together.
So it can be extremely subtleand, again, people don't even
know that it's wrong.
Great example Just yesterday ora couple of days ago, I was sent
this screenshot by someone inmy audience on LinkedIn and it
was a Slack emoji, sort ofsearch result, and he had
written tired and what came upwasn't like someone yawning,
(11:58):
wasn't snoozing, wasn't a bed,wasn't any of that.
It was people with white hair.
No joke, it was like the faceemoji with white hair.
And I was like, oh my gosh,that is a perfect encapsulation
of what unconscious biases andhow subtly this can come in.
And I'll tell you when I did apost about it on LinkedIn
yesterday, it went prettybonkers, but there were plenty
of people who were like you'remaking this problem up, this is
(12:19):
not an issue.
What are you talking about?
Who cares?
Like making light of it, andthe reality is those sorts of
things get into our subconsciousand we think of older people as
tired.
We don't give them thepromotion, we don't consider
them for the job.
And I also want to underscoresomething like culture fit.
I think is a really toxicconcept, because what that means
(12:40):
is more people like us, andwhat it can be used to do is
discriminate against people whoare different.
Right, and it creates thesehomogenous work cultures.
So I think we need to shiftfrom culture culture fit to
culture add.
So lots of ways.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I love that, yeah, and I'm just wondering from Vest
members that are here, if youhave an example of how you felt,
the subtle or very intentionalyou know.
If you have an experience thatyou'd like to share, please put
it in the chat, because we wouldlove to just, you know, have
examples that we can relate to,because I think that one of the
(13:18):
ways in which we combat this isjust by having conversations,
right, because I do think that alot of times like and again
it's like cross generational I,you know, you, we've we're
talking about wiser people butI've also experienced, I
remember, as a youngprofessional, I don't know how
(13:38):
many times I was told wait yourturn, even though I was
performing, I was delivering,wait your turn, it's not your
turn yet.
You have to wait, you know.
So I'm just curious if any VASTmembers have any additional
examples that you can share ofhow you've experienced this
challenge at work.
(13:59):
And, maureen, you mentioned someof that pushback right, like,
share with us, maybe, and it canbe from your own experience of,
from people that you've hostedin your podcast.
What are some of the ways thatyou would coach women to call it
out when they see it or pushback with the hard thing is like
(14:25):
without you know, because, aswomen, the other thing that we
have to deal with is like justoverall bias, right, and so when
we pull out something or whenwe pronounce something, it's
always like, oh well, you're nowyou're being confrontational or
now you're making up a problemthat doesn't exist.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Right, exactly, it's so.
It's so challenging.
We walk a tightrope every day,don't we?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So how do we call it out and how do we push back
without risking our careers?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, I think one person who came on my show had a
really brilliant example of howshe pushed back in a way that
wasn't super confrontational,but she just basically called it
out.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar with the way the
interview process goes at Amazon, but it is man, it's grueling
I've been through it before.
It's wild.
And they actually do it in sucha way so as to try to prevent
bias from seeping in, which is alaudable concept.
But this one candidate had comethrough this.
(15:11):
This woman was a recruiter atAmazon who was on my show and
this man had come through theinterview pipeline and he was
passing everything with flyingcolor colors.
He was, you know, checkingevery box.
He was fantastic, he was in hissixties.
Okay, so they all after theseinterviews across the team there
were like 10 interviews orsomething, because that's what
Amazon does they all came into aroom and that's when people
basically said like I'm inclinedto hire or I'm not, and they
(15:35):
went around the room, startedtalking about this candidate and
these things started coming uplike Ooh, do you think he might
get bored here?
Oh, maybe he's a little bitoverqualified, I don't know.
And she just saw this and shewas like, wait a minute, this is
the perfect candidate.
And so she just she stood upand she said hey, I'm going to
say something that I'm not sureany of you are comfortable
saying.
(15:55):
But are you concerned about hisage?
Because we can't do that.
That's protected characteristicand we have to evaluate him on
the basis of his merits and hispotential and that's not
something we can do.
And as soon as she said that,everyone kind of realized, oh
gosh, that is actually what itis.
(16:16):
So she called out theunconscious bias in a way that
wasn't accusatory, but she justwas like, hey, we can't do that.
And it flipped the switch andthey ended up hiring him and he
stayed for longer than theaverage person's tenure which is
another fun fact about olderworkers is their tenure actually
is longer.
And there's a lot of concernaround oh well, maybe that
person will retire or whatever.
But the reality is that's notreally how it goes with the data
(16:39):
.
But she made a huge differencein that organization because
this guy was an excellentemployee and she made a huge
difference in his life just bycalling it out.
And I think you're absolutelyright that we women do have to
walk that tightrope and we haveto do so in like a very
judicious, like non-hostile way.
And even when we're not beinghostile, we're sometimes accused
of being hostile, which is fun,and I wish I had the silver
(17:01):
bullet answer for that one.
But I think, just asking peopleto pause and consider, you know,
for example, if I remember backin my own career, when I was at
a tech company, there was thiscandidate who's excellent for
the role.
We needed somebody with moretenure, someone who understood
the new world into which we weregoing was a new initiative, a
startup initiative within thisestablished company that I was
(17:22):
in charge of, and one of thesepeople came through and he was
just amazing.
And then there was this otherperson who was great, but he was
probably 15 years younger thanthis guy, a lot less experience.
You guess who gets the role?
It's the younger guy, right,and it was because he was a
culture fit.
So I was not in a position atthat point where I could really
(17:42):
understand that that was whatwas going on.
But now, looking back, I'm likethat's 100% what it was.
He wasn't the culture fit andhe wasn't fitting into sort of
the youthful, dominant cultureof the organization and that was
it.
So I think even having theconversation around culture fit,
culture ad versus culture fitcould be a way to do it.
But also sometimes, sometimesyou just got to call it out and
(18:05):
you obviously if the law is onyour side, in which case you
know, in this case which it isyou have that level of
protection-ish.
Allegedly, we can get into someof the downfalls of the Age
Discrimination and EmploymentAct and how it fails us
sometimes later in thisconversation if we want to go
(18:25):
down that path, but there aresituations in which you just
have to address it head on.
But I think trying to create anorganization that has
intergenerational collaborationand communication is one really,
really good way to combat this,because we're all so much more
alike than we are different.
Everybody likes flexibility intheir workplace, right?
(18:46):
That's not bad for older peopleor younger people or better for
one or the other.
It's just great for everyone.
So we need to have theopportunity to speak across
generations, which is somethingthat most organizations today
are doing a really terrible jobwith, and it's holding us back
from having the understandingthat we're all in this thing
together and we don't need topit generation against
(19:07):
generation.
So it's just let's get peoplecollaborating.
Let's get people in mentorshipopportunities and you kind of
hinted at this earlier, butmentorship goes both ways.
I have a Gen Z social mediaeditor, slash consultant, who is
an incredible teacher, whobasically coaches and is often
(19:30):
almost a therapist for me, andhe's so incredibly wise.
I learned so much from him andI like to think he learned a lot
from me too.
So it's not one directional,it's not simply like the elders
passing down their wisdom, it isboth ways, and I think the
sooner we realize this, thebetter our workplaces will be.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I love that and I love the call to action and like
let's assess ourselves firstand make sure you know we did
share an exercise too in ourMonday newsletter, if you missed
it, on how to assess our ownbiases and see if we have
applied some of these ageismourselves right, when we're
evaluating people not for theirability to perform, but rather
(20:12):
because we make assumptionsbased on age.
And I love how you said, youknow, let's not pit generations
against each other, let's worktogether to and approach each
other with a curiosity level anda learning mindset, rather than
like let's put people in boxes.
One of my biggest pet peeves iswhen I go to and somebody
mentioned I'm like kind oflooking at the chat and we're
(20:35):
going to take a minute to likekind of do an evaluation of the
chat.
But one of my pet peeves iswhen I go to traditional, uh
produced events and immediatelypeople start making fun of Gen
Zs or the younger generation orimmediately said, oh well,
they're lacy, they just don'thave the same work ethic, you
know, and then they just puteverybody on the same bucket,
(20:56):
right, so yeah, so I love thatyou kind of call that out in
your in your comments.
I want to take a minute becauseit's been hard for me to keep up
with the chat and I know thatthere's been a lot of commentary
, which I love.
Gabby, do you want to keep usup?
Is there something that we needto address in the chat or
(21:16):
somebody has any questions oranything that we should take a
minute and respond to?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Yeah, we had a question come up here, but I
wanted to point out just some ofthe members shared kind of
their experience.
I know Srajita mentioned justthe double standard as not only
ageism but also for men andwomen, as younger men referred
to as younger gentlemen whilewomen are referred to as girl.
And then we also had anothermember that mentioned she's the
(21:49):
youngest partner on her team.
So even though she has a decadeof experience, her partners
have over 400 or over 100,excuse me years of experience
and so sometimes she feels likeshe worries about speaking up in
that kind of context.
Another member just mentionedfor her it's come up in a few
(22:11):
ways over dependence on helpingwith onboarding and training,
being openly surprised when sheis open to new challenges and or
just making assumptions withouttalking to her about it.
But we did just have a newquestion in here.
I don't know if Christy wantsto unmute herself and ask, but
she just mentioned that she readabout taking off certain dates
(22:33):
on your resume, such asuniversity graduation.
Just thoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, did you want to say anything about that?
I'm sorry, christy, did youwant to speak up or is that
sufficient?
That's sufficient.
Yeah, that's my question.
It's a good question.
It's one I hear often and I'msort of of two minds about it.
On one hand, I think if youreally need to get work right
away, absolutely, I mean, that'sthe reality.
(23:00):
We know that hiring managersand recruiters are biased.
There was a recent survey thatwas done in the Financial Times
that said that 50, around 50% ofrecruiters thought that 57 was
quote too old to be hired.
So I mean, that's recruiters,that's HR.
They should know better.
Right, I would expect more biasfrom hiring managers.
However, another survey saidthat 42% of hiring managers were
(23:23):
biased against candidates basedon age.
So I was shocked that it wasn'tmore for the hiring managers
and less for the recruiters.
But that's where we are insociety.
So it's not if, but when youwill be judged based on your age
.
That's just the uncomfortabletruth.
So if you need to help yourselfout and get more at bats, I
think it's a really good ideaactually to remove early
(23:44):
experience as much as I despisesaying that and graduation dates
.
That's just the reality we livein.
So I think we need to optimizefor what our current situation
is and build for a better future.
But then on the flip side, Iwill say if you have the
privilege of being choosier andtaking a little bit longer with
your job search, leave it all onthere, because we should be
(24:05):
proud of our experience and ourage is not something we should
apologize for.
Our age is an asset, not aliability, and so if you can go
forward with that mentality andfind the right organization that
values you for who you are andnot when you were born, that's
optimal, of course.
So I would also argue that alot of organizations that would
judge you based on age, thoseare not the ones that are a
(24:26):
long-term fit for you.
Those are not the places youwant to build a career.
But again, I just want to bereally clear.
I know sometimes we don't havethat sort of privilege to wait
and find the right thing.
Sometimes we just need to earnmoney.
So I see both sides on this one.
But generally speaking, givenwe live in an ageist world, I
advise people to and I try tomake my show fun and
(24:49):
lighthearted as much as possiblelaugh so we don't cry, kind of
thing.
So I tell them to Botox theirresume because it's just helpful
.
Now, that said, gen Z is havinga lot of trouble getting hired
right now, which is also deeplyunfair.
So things are tough on bothends of the spectrum, which is
also deeply unfair.
So you know, things are toughon both ends of the spectrum.
So you know, for Gen Z, I stillalso think, if you can, if you
are a very recent graduate, it'stough to put your college
(25:13):
graduation date on there right,for example.
But we also are operating in aplace where sometimes we just
have what we have.
We got to move forward with it,and our mindset and the way we
show up is critically important.
So if you come in with likeyour proverbial tail between
your legs and you're apologizingfor who you are, that energy is
not going to get you where youneed to go.
So show up with confidence, nomatter what age you are, and
just own your experience and tryto shift your own mindset,
(25:36):
because that is going to be thebest way for you to get a job at
any age.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
You talk a lot about career reinvention on your
podcast and we've actually wewere reviewing the data on VAST
We've launched in excuse me 2020.
So we've been operatingconsistently for four years now
and one of the things that weconsistently see is that most
women join the network primarilywhen they're experiencing a
(26:05):
career or life transition rightand they get that support system
.
And it's hard and we still verymuch struggle with career
transitions and reinventingourselves or staying true to you
know.
You don't necessarily have togo through a whole reinvention,
but how do you?
You know, how do you managepivots, whether they are,
(26:30):
there's a layoff or maybe youjust want to experience a
completely different career.
So what advice do you have forwomen who are experiencing a
pivot in their career?
How can they get back on trackif it's like not something that
they forecasted or wanted to gothrough a pivot necessarily, but
something unexpected?
(26:51):
How can they feel moreconfident about their next move?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I mean I think first we need to recognize that
the sort of old careertrajectory is not really what we
have in play anymore.
I mean, you don't spend 30years at one company and get a
gold watch at your retirementanymore.
That's just kind of not how theworld is working.
It's almost moving to more of agig economy type portfolio
career, and so I think, whetherwe like it or not, these sorts
(27:19):
of pivots are going to be thrustupon us and it's something we
just need to contend with.
So I guess I would first findcomfort in the fact that you're
far from alone.
I think people who join acommunity like this are doing
absolutely the right thing.
Because let me tell you, assomeone who's pivoted out of
corporate, this is lonely and itis hard and there are some days
when you're going to want toquit.
(27:39):
There's some days when you'regoing to want to scream at the
top of your lungs at how excitedyou are.
Like it's going to highs andlows are going to abound, and
having a community around toground you and to support you is
really critical.
So I applaud anyone who isgoing through this and joins
best to help get them throughRight.
I would say you know, all ofour life experience informs how
(28:03):
we show up in the workplace andyou can draw lessons from so
much that's happened in yourlife, even if you're moving into
a completely different arena,so people pivoting.
You know you might feel alittle uncomfortable, given you
don't have necessarily a ton ofexperience in a different
industry, but there are alwayslessons you can draw and apply
to this new opportunity and thisnew world from your life,
(28:25):
whether that's actually in theworkplace or outside of it.
So I would urge people toreally think a little bit more
openly and creatively about whatthey've done and draw
inferences from what they'vedone in the past that could then
be applied in the future.
And then I'd also, you know,one thing that's really helped
me is I've I've gotten througheverything that's been thrown in
(28:46):
my way right.
You know like I have 42 yearsof lived experience of figuring
it out and I draw confidencefrom that.
The other thing that you mightlaugh at that kind of gives me
confidence is I also havelearned over time.
No one really knows whatthey're doing.
We're all just trying to figureit out as we go, like no one is
a hundred percent ready foranything that they take on.
(29:07):
And women, I think and I knowI'm doing a broad generalization
here, but I'm in a group ofwomen, so you guys can hold me
accountable if you think I'mwrong but I feel as though women
in particular have a hard timewith imposter syndrome, and I've
seen this in my own work withmy, the social media consultant
I was talking to you about.
I mean, he has so muchconfidence and he goes forward
(29:30):
with just this pride and thisassuredness that is.
It's attractive Like you, yousee it and you see what works
right.
So I actually I was laughingrecently because I saw someone
post I think it was on threadsabout how they would never work
with a male executive coach or amale coach in any regard,
because men don't understandtheir lives, and I was like,
(29:50):
actually, sometimes it's goodbecause they can flip a
narrative in a way for you andempower you, because they embody
that in their lives.
I don't know where they get itand maybe it's the system you
know being a lot more favorableto men in general, but it's
something that I have used asinspiration and I've tried to
carry that through.
Does it always work?
No, but it is a good sort ofmentality, and I also want to
(30:14):
say women.
When it comes to money, we havea hard time.
Again, broad generalization,but money's hard for us, and
it's been really helpful for meto see how men frame money
discussions and conversations.
And especially if you'repivoting into something new,
you're going to need to makemoney.
That's going to be important,and so you have to figure out
(30:35):
even if it's something newer foryou.
You have to figure out how toconfidently ask for money and
not devalue yourself, right?
So goodness, yeah, we're goingto get through everything.
You have a lived experiencethat proves it.
Take a deep breath.
No one knows what's going on.
You'll figure it out and get acommunity.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
So full disclosure I am one of those wiser candidates
that Erica talked about.
I loved that language, Lookingfor a next role, and I'm really
privileged to have some time tofind the right one.
(31:15):
For candidates like me to seekcertifications or
micro-credentials to eitherdevelop new skills, emphasize
skills I already have, or justeven show a willingness to learn
those new skills despite beingwiser and if so, how do I
evaluate best sources for thosekinds of credentials?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
you know best sources for those kinds of credentials.
First of all, brilliant thoughtright, because you are
basically, by getting thesecredentials and by actively
learning and upskilling andreskilling, you're showing
people that you're not done yet,that you still have so much to
learn and grow, and that'sreally, really important.
I think that is something that,if you can demonstrate it by
getting these sorts ofcredentials, that's only going
to benefit you.
(32:01):
So I highly recommend that youdo that.
I think be thoughtful about thetypes of skills that you want
to get under your belt.
For example, I think you know,in the world we live in, ai
skills would be reallyimperative for you to develop,
and that just really kind ofpushes down that stereotype that
you know wiser, wiser peopledon't want to learn new things
(32:22):
or stuck in their ways.
So I think that is a great wayfor for you to have demonstrable
proof that that's not the wayyou operate.
I would say also, if you'relooking for new roles, try as
much as you can to go back intoyour work experience and
showcase the times when you havelearned something and taken
something from.
You know soup to nuts and andbuilt something from scratch,
because, again, that shows awillingness to learn and grow.
(32:44):
So emphasizing that in yourpast is really important as well
.
And as far as identifying theright places, that's a great
question, and I'm actuallylooking to find a person to come
on the show to talkspecifically about upskilling
and reskilling, because I thinkthat's a really, really critical
component of what we all needto do at any age, because the
(33:04):
world is changing so fast.
So we want to make sure that weare showcasing that on our
LinkedIn, on our resumes andjust in the way we show up in
interviews.
So, yeah, you're absolutelyspot on doing that.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Ah, Maureen, thank you Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I do think it's important to support women, you
know, in figuring out how toincrease performance, how to
show up at work, how to upskill,all of those things.
We talked about the impostersyndrome.
I have my own thoughts aboutthat, because I do think that a
lot of the problems, as we'vetalked about here, are systemic
(33:41):
in nature and have to do a lotmore with the corporate
workplace environment, which wasnot designed with us in mind or
with a lot of people in mind, amatter of fact, and so I'm
always looking for, like, okay,what advice do we have for women
right on how do we navigatethese challenges better?
But also, how do we hold thesystem accountable right?
(34:03):
And I earlier in the discussionyou mentioned how the labor
laws were failing us and maybesome of the HR structures are
failing us.
Can you give us a couple ofexamples on how that is and
maybe how we can fix it or putit out there for anybody to have
that has ideas?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I mean, yeah, the system is definitely failing us
and it is failing all of us not,you know, exactly at the same
level, but it is failing all ofus and I think, um, you know,
allyship is really important.
So making sure and this isactually one thing that I think
is really, um, the sort ofperverse beauty of ageism is it
does get all of us, and so itgets men too.
I've heard horrific stories ofmen just having their whole
(34:45):
lives blown apart, and you know,a lot of men base their entire
self-worth on their ability toprovide and their careers and
whatnot, and it really doesdecimate them too.
So this is something we can allkind of arm ourselves together
and fight.
So I think that's a really kindof somewhat nice thing about
ageism is that we can all bandtogether.
So the system is definitelybroken for sure.
(35:06):
I mean, since 1967, we've hadfederal legislation that
protects people over the age of40 from facing discrimination in
the workplace, and yet I turned40 and the only thing it
protected me from was inbound,unsolicited requests to go
interview at companies fromrecruiters.
Like it dropped off a cliff thesecond I turned 40.
So I know it's real.
(35:26):
It can't be explained only by apoor market, it was just a
steep decline.
It was wild.
So I know that it's happeningand I think there are biases
that are programmed into ATSsystems, into recruiters
algorithms, into what they'reseeking, all of that.
So it's very real.
So the law exists and yet thesethings still happen.
(35:49):
Age discrimination is still thetoughest form of discrimination
to prove.
The Supreme Court decided acase back in the nineties that
made it so that it had to be thewhat's called but for cause for
someone's either termination orlack of promotion or lack of
hiring, and that means that itcan't be a part of a mixed
motive case in any way, shape orform.
It has to be the sole reasonthat you had that adverse
(36:11):
decision happen to you.
So it's incredibly difficult toprove.
So these cases there are tonsof claims every year and very
few of them actually move in theright direction, and the
settlements are often not quitewhat they should be.
So the deck is certainlystacked against us when it comes
to legal avenues, unfortunately.
But there is bipartisanlegislation in the works that
(36:33):
would reduce the burden of proofto that of other forms of
discrimination, so there's alittle bit of hope there.
It's bipartisan, so, hey, therewe go.
So I have a little bit of hopethere.
There's also recent legislationthat happened in the state of
Colorado in July of 2024, calledthe Job Application Fairness
Act, and what that does is itensures that no company is
allowed to ask for any ageidentification markers on your
(36:56):
application, so they can't askyou for your date of birth, they
can't ask you for when yougraduated, so on and so forth,
which is great because it levelsthe playing field and it
enables people to just get intointerviews on the basis of what
their accomplishments andpotential are, which is really
the way it should be.
So I'm actually having someoneon the show who helps push that
through.
Her name's Janine Vanderberg.
She's awesome.
(37:16):
She's part of an organizationcalled Changing the Narrative in
Colorado, and so I'm going tobring her on the show and figure
out how we can push thisforward and actually drive
people to do a little activismhere and get this to go.
I think it should go across all50 states personally.
So there are certain things likethat happening, but the system
still is not what it needs to be, and I think that's because we
(37:38):
have such a casual entrenchedageism in our culture.
There's so many stereotypesthat are just not even
considered to be a problem, andyou don't have to look any
farther than just media memes,et cetera, the generational
warfare to know why, because tous it's just nothing.
So it's a cultural shift thatneeds to happen, and I think
we're seeing some of that.
I'm actually quite hopeful thatthere's going to be a change,
(38:01):
and I'm already seeing the signsof it.
Of course, I'm on the lookoutfor it, doing what I do, but I
really do have hope that it'sshifting, and I mean look at
Wiser Than Me by JuliaLouis-Dreyfus Elaine from
Seinfeld that was the toppodcast in 2023, for example.
So there is an interest inseeing people represented across
all ages and people into theirolder years as being held up as
(38:23):
examples, which is what we need,right, and what I want to see
more of is the more relatabletype of person, rather than
these Hollywood stars, right,because I'm sorry, I love JLo,
but she's not very relatable tome, right, and so I want to see
people doing things in theirlater years that are not
necessarily Hollywood stars.
But I really do think it'sshifting.
(38:44):
I truly do 100%.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, I can't wait to check out that new legislation.
That's fantastic and I agreewith you, it should be
implemented across.
I mean, if we're serious aboutperformance, yeah, and hiring
the best.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
It's still for companies and, at the end of the
day, no company or industry isgoing to make a shift towards
intergenerational employment andcollaboration unless they
realize that it's going to makethem more money.
That's the system we work inand the reality is there is
evidence to support that adiverse workforce across all
facets makes you more money andincreases productivity and
innovation.
So that's the sort of researchthat I'm hoping continues to be
(39:21):
done, because that is, I believe, the only thing that's going to
move the needle.
My least favorite term, butyeah.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
We always close this Maureen with, give us a couple
of very tangible practicaltakeaways, right Like what can
we be doing, either asindividuals, on how we, you know
, combat this on our ownpersonal experience, or how do
we build more inclusive andflexible environments for where
(39:52):
ageism doesn't play a role in,you know, putting people in
buckets or stereotyping?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I think the first thing we need to do is work on
ourselves.
We have a crazy amount ofinternalized ageism.
I mean, I know I do, I'mworking through it for sure.
As women, we are told that theworst thing we can do is get
older.
We're hawked anti-aging creamssince you know what?
We're 10 years old in thisculture.
It's crazy.
So we have to really work onthat.
It starts with each of us,because we all bring ourselves
(40:20):
to work and so we have theseembedded narratives and biases
that we bring with us and theyare going to seep into the
workplace without question.
So start with yourself, startquestioning that.
Try to increase yourintergenerational collaboration,
communication, friendship.
All of that helps.
I mean, gosh, your mind justgets blown when you actually
talk to people who are differentfrom you and you realize again
(40:42):
how much more similar we arethan different.
And you stop typecasting peoplewhen you get to know them right
.
So it's increased your circle,if you can.
I know it's a little bit hard todo in a lot of our society, but
we should try to intentionallywork to create friendships and
opportunities to get to knowpeople of different ages.
Highly recommend that.
And then I would say and thisgoes back to somewhat of the
(41:04):
internal narrative, right?
But if you can shift yourmindset to see your age as an
asset rather than a liability,that's going to help you.
So, so much, and just don'tapologize for who you are.
It's so ludicrous for us tothink differently of people
based on when they happen tohave been born.
We're all on this thing calledlife together and we just happen
to be at different points onour own personal journeys, and
(41:25):
so just cut it out right.
Try to view it as the asset thatit is and the relationships
that you make along the way.
By the way, this is a hugebenefit to people who are older
workers that, sadly, youngerworkers don't have, and my heart
breaks for them.
Your network that you've builtincludes your past bosses, your
past colleagues, your pastclients, your past vendors.
(41:45):
You know a ton of people byvirtue of just existing longer.
Leverage them, almost.
I mean, it's a crazy.
I can't remember the percentageoff the top of my head, but
it's a huge percentage ofworkers that are placed through
network connections versus justapplying online, right?
So leverage your network isgoing to get you farther faster
and you have that benefit.
(42:05):
So see it as the asset it is.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
I love that and can't agree with it more.
And it applies not just tocareer environments right and
getting higher and promoted, butit also investment right.
If you're an entrepreneur andyou want to get investment, it's
through networks.
It's not what you know, but whoyou know.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
So true.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
It's actually a fair advantage for older people.
So I feel you know youngerpeople.
I hope they can get pulled ininto mentorship and circles and
be really intentional aboutexpanding their network, because
it's tough work and you justkind of naturally get it as you
get older.
So absolutely.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
How can members or listeners listen to your podcast
but also get connected with you?
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, so certainly via LinkedIn, which I put in
there and I believe you sent outelsewhere.
I'm also on Instagram atMaureen W Clough.
You can find me at it gets lateearlycom.
All the show episodes are there.
It's also on every singlepodcast platform, including
YouTube.
And yeah, I have a newsletteras well that goes out a couple
(43:06):
of times a month.
I'm trying to increase that butalso not overwhelm.
You know it's a tough balance,but, and also I'm busy.
So, but all those places aregreat spots to be and I hope I'm
going to be out on the roadmore.
I just recently went to lastweek went to San Francisco, and
AARP sponsored a conversationwith their chief information
officer about the power of themulti-generational workforce.
(43:28):
So I'm hoping to do more thingslike that on the road because,
as you indicated in our openingmoments like it's so great to be
with people and the communityand it was just the most
gratifying thing to be aroundothers.
So, yeah, hope to do more ofthat in 2025.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwvestherco and applytoday.
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