Future of Work As It Relates To Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in the Anti-DEI Era

In this episode we talk to Shalynne Jackson, Oklahoma City's Chief Equity Officer, and Mikeale Campbell, Diversity & Inclusion Program Manager at Williams on the topic of Future of Work as it relates to inclusion. We talk about SHRM's decision to remove the word “equity” from DEI due to the anti-DEI movement. If and how companies should evolve DEI efforts. How executives can address the wrongful implication that DEI efforts mean giving preference to unqualified candidates and more.

This episode is brought to you by VEST Her Ventures, a peer network and investment fund for women building the infrastructure needed to unlock women's labor participation, career potential, and lifetime earnings. Learn more at www.VESTHer.co.

If you enjoy the episode please share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review.

Guest Bios

Shalynne Jackson serves as the City of Oklahoma City's first Chief Equity Officer. Prior to joining the City of OKC, Shalynne supported strategic Inclusion and Diversity initiatives for multiple Fortune 500 companies. She has served on various boards and is currently the Membership Chair for the Oklahoma Human Resources State Council (OKHR); serves on Schnake Turnbo Franks’ I&D Advisory Committee; and is on the board of ReMerge - a comprehensive diversion program. Shalynne is recognized as a 2024 Oklahoma Magazine 40 Under 40 honoree, and in 2023, Shalynne was recognized by 405 Business Magazine as a Notable DEI Leader and one of the Metro's most influential leaders. A graduate of The University of Oklahoma, Shalynne holds a Master of Human Relations degree. Additionally, she is a qualified administrator for the Intercultural Development Inventory (IDI), a cross-cultural assessment of intercultural competence. Most importantly, she is the proud mother of daughter Hollis, 6, and son Liam, 3.

Mikeale Campbell is a proud product of North Tulsa. After graduating from Booker T Washington, he attended the University of Tulsa, majoring in Business and Chinese. Upon graduation, Mikeale moved to Dallas, Texas, to participate in a program called, Teach For America (TFA). Teach For America is a program that takes aspiring leaders and supports them as classroom teachers for a minimum of 2 years. After five years in Texas's classroom and campus support roles, he moved back to the Tulsa area to create and lead TFA Greater Tulsa's Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion programs. During his 4 years with the organization Mikeale impacted the knowledge, skills, and mindsets of over 400 educators in the Tulsa area. Mikeale transitioned to the Williams Companies in November of 2020. Since then, he has immediately jumped in to support Williams in becoming a leader in the D&I space within our community. He is heavily involved in the Tulsa community, serving on several boards, including Tulsa Legacy Charter Schools, Pathways Adult Center, and Tulsa Regional Chamber’s 2023 Inclusion Chair. Mikeale prides himself on being an active volunteer in the community, supporting many womxn lead organizations, STEM programs and all things Greenwood. Mikeale says he’s lived a life roo

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone, this is Gabby Eichenlaub, founding
member of Vest.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vest Her podcast, where we
explore the invisible barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building the future of
more inclusive workspaces.
This episode is brought to youby Vest Her Ventures, a peer
network and investment fund forwomen, building the

(00:24):
infrastructure needed to unlockwomen's labor participation,
career potential and lifetimeearnings.
Learn more at wwwbestherco.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I feel like some people don't even really
understand the differencebetween, like, social justice
work and DEI work.
And people also don'tunderstand we only sometimes get
one time to mess up in thiswork.
And so if somebody went beforeme and they went in cussing
everybody out and tellingeverybody they're racist and
doing all the things in thecorporate setting, that makes it
10 times harder for me If Iever even get the job.

(01:01):
If that office even stays alive, right, usually after that,
like it's repurposed, you don'tget another chance.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Give us a shared working definition of what we
mean when we say diversity,inclusion, equity and belonging.
We have to have the sameconversation because you can
have 20 definitions and I can'ttalk to you about what you have
in your head and what I have inmy head.
That may or may not be aligned,so we have to get on the same
page.
And the second I have to bevery transparent with goals and
data.
Oftentimes organizations,either through fear or level of

(01:32):
risk, aren't transparent withdata and aren't always
transparent with goals.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
The way you develop your people, that's DEI.
The way that you appreciate andrecognize your people, that's
DEI.
This is really about effectiveleadership.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
When folks get that the work of D&I, particularly in
the corporate setting, isaround systems, structures and
mindsets, I really don't carethat.
If we call it what we call it,you could drop the title for me
tomorrow.
And I do leadership developmentwork because I'm in the
business of helping leadersbroaden their perspectives and
learning how to serve anddevelop their people better.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
In this episode we talked to Shailen Jackson,
oklahoma City's Chief EquityOfficer, and Mikel Campbell,
Diversity and Inclusion ProgramManager at Williams, on the
topic of future of work as itrelates to inclusion.
We talk about SHRM's decisionto remove the word equity from
DEI due to the anti-DEI movement, if and how companies should

(02:34):
evolve DEI efforts, howexecutives can address the
wrongful implication that DEIefforts means giving preference
to unqualified candidates andmore efforts means giving
preference to unqualifiedcandidates and more.
For our guests' full bio andshow notes go to wwwbestherco
forward slash podcast.
This episode was part of a moreintimate coaching session and

(03:00):
has been repurposed toaccommodate this episode.
If you enjoy the episode,please share it with a friend
and don't forget to leave us areview.
Tell us just a little bit moreabout yourself, maybe what's not
in your bio, but also maybe howthis whole anti-DEI rhetoric

(03:20):
movement is affecting your workcurrently.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Kind of a loaded question, right?
So I too am from Tulsa.
My Kayla and I went to WiccaTea together, so go Hornets.
Obviously Tulsa has a lot ofrich history and it's
interesting to know that, comingup, I did not hear about a lot
of the history y'all hear abouttoday, and so that in itself has
really shaped like why do wehide parts of our history, even

(03:45):
when it happened, like right upthe street, right, I have
alopecia.
I hate Justice Widener Smiththat just got on.
I have alopecia.
I am a daughter of anincarcerated dad most of my life
, and then he was taken from us.
I'm a mom and I say thesethings.
I'm a Christian.

(04:05):
I say these things ones becausewe often don't talk about this
kind of stuff.
It's all taboo, you're supposedto hide the most important
parts of yourself, but those arethe exact things that made me
me.
But I also say these thingsjust because they did shape how
I show up in this space and whyI do this work.
It's interesting she just goton here.
But specifically how I got intothe work, I'll just say I did

(04:26):
used to do the work at One OakDollar General and Walmart, and
so I say that it is huge goingfrom the private sector to the
public sector, but starting atOne Oak, you say, how did I get
in?
And I met Justice one day.
She had started like a month ortwo before me and I said the
first time I met her, would youmentor me?
And I did not know.
That's not how you get a mentor.

(04:47):
We always joke.
I'm glad that it worked out.
I'm glad that it worked out.
I just knew that her title hadto do with humans and I'm so
fortunate that ever since thatday I was able to every day wake
up and love humans through mywork.
And so that's really how I gotinto the work, and I can talk
later about how I got into thisspecific role.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
Similar.
It's always connections forfolks, and so I like the push
because I would like things toshare more authentically about
myself.
I am the oldest of five.
My mom had me at 15.
I have an ACE score, if you'refamiliar with ACE, so Adverse
Childhood Experiences of 10.
And so in many ways I've livedmy life as an anomaly in ways

(05:34):
that I think perpetuate just, Ithink, the grit of humans.
I got into the work mostlybecause of my time spent in the
classroom, and so I am fromTulsa but ultimately taught in
Dallas, and my first year thereI was teaching and I had a lot

(05:54):
of what I would call like reallywell-intentioned, good-hearted
educators that were graduatingfrom the SMUs and TCUs of the
world and, if you're familiarwith those campuses, very
affluent and very white, and sowhat that meant to me on our
campus was I had this crop oflike really really
well-intentioned, good-heartedwhite women that thought they

(06:16):
could connect with parents andpeers by talking about Burberry
and kids in the hood think youmean blueberries, like it.
Just it wasn't the samelanguage.
And so we began to create a lotof what I would call cultural
competency work of like here'show you know the area and the
environment you're going into.
Here's what that means to carryyourself.
Here's how you build awarenessaround those things.
And so did that while teaching,and then eventually did my own

(06:43):
consulting firm, moved to NewOrleans, and then had the
privilege of someone saying like, hey, I love what you've built
here, I'd love to take it offyour hands.
And so I had moved to NewOrleans, was there for two
months, and then got a jobrequest to come back to Tulsa,
and I just got married.
So my wife and I joke that wegot married.
We lived together for twomonths and then moved apart for
two years, which was fun in our20s.

(07:04):
I would never do it again,though.
Um.
But then, with that, spent sometime at teacher america, really
focusing on the knowledge,skills and mindsets, and I named
that because I think that's abig part about how I do the work
now.
To be successful in theclassroom, this belief that you
have to have is like everystudent can learn if given the
right opportunities, uh, and theright experiences, right.
So if that's resources,tutoring, whatever it may be, uh

(07:25):
, and that mindset, I was like,oh, for some reason, I don't
think that, or I had not alwaysthought about people right, and
so that doesn't change whensomeone turns 18 or 28 or 47 or
62, right, and so I think that'sa mindset I carry a lot into
the work that I do now, which isthis idea that there's plenty
of folks that have wellintentioned and good hearts that
have not been exposed to eitheraccurate truths or other

(07:47):
perspectives that's done enoughto really navigate the way that
they view and see the world, andso that's really the work that
I get to do is I talk a lotabout that idea of like the
perspectives that we hold andhow that broadens our awareness
of stuff.
So the second part of yourquestion I think you had in
there, gabby, was just like howhas the anti-DNI movement
impacted our work?

(08:07):
Well, it's both good ways,mostly bad ways't care that if
we call it what we call it, youcould drop the title for me

(08:30):
tomorrow, and I do leadershipdevelopment work because I'm in
the business of helping leadersbroaden their perspectives and
learning how to serve anddevelop their people better.
I don't want to drop the title,but I think at its core that's
the work that we do, and so forme that's been the big part of
our organizational conversationis I care less about the titles
that we'll have to use for aninvestor or XYZ or for the board
, which I've not had any changeto push that yet.

(08:51):
But, like I've told my boss,I'm very open to that.
What I'm not open to ischanging what we're doing, and
what we're doing I think are theright things, and I'm still
pretty firm in that.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
And I totally skipped the second question.
I just have to echo everythingthat Mikel said.
A lot of why I skipped it isour work really hasn't changed.
But to Mikel's point, it'sbecause of how we do the work
and our title actually didchange, so I will share that.
My title is now the ChiefEquity Officer.
It was the Chief IND Officerand I'm going to be honest, I

(09:22):
never wanted it to be the INDOfficer.
I never wanted it to be the INDofficer.
I never wanted it but it wasalready out and I'll just say a
short story.
When I got there it was thechief diversity and inclusion
officer and I was sharing mystrategy with the leadership
group and our chief of fire andI have to give him a shout out.
He's been on board active fromday one.
He shared with his peers.

(09:43):
He said, really, I'm focused oninclusion, not diversity,
because my understanding of thework is, if I do inclusion right
, my diverse firefighters willstay and they'll come.
And I'm like, yeah, they'llcome right.
And so I said, hey, a lot ofpeople make a statement by
putting inclusion first.
Do we want to swap it when thewhole time, I really always

(10:03):
wanted equity but I didn't wantto take that and I share that,
because I had employees thatwere upset with me.
They were like you, let thiswhite man make this decision.
I said he didn't even ask forthis, he just said what his
focus was going to be.
But that told me, right there,I definitely couldn't change the
name to what I wanted it to befor relationship purposes, right
?
So three years in, we've builttrust.
My team came together, we'rerebranding, we're about to

(10:27):
change, kind of go to 2.0 for us, and we were like maybe now's
the time to say we want to shiftto just equity.
It's shorter, it's cleaner.
If you accomplish equity, youaccomplish everything else.
Well, now the narrative,because it was around the time
that the decision came out,around removing it from schools
and blah, blah, blah.
The narrative is that we weremade to do it.
So now we're telling employeeswe weren't made to do it.

(10:48):
Equity is actually a morestronger stance.
We want this because, likeMikel said, I don't care what
you call me, I just don't want along title, as long as we
remain committed to the work.
You can call me the chiefculture officer.
So, anyways, I just wanted toshare, just like Mikel.

(11:08):
The journey has been great andwe really aren't changing
anything.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Thank you so much for both of you, for the important
work that you're doing in yourrespective communities and then
also just for being vulnerablewith us sharing more about
yourself.
I know there's a couple ofmembers too that have just
mentioned that in the chat.
Speaking of the change in title, too, I think earlier this week
or just this month, thecountry's top organization for

(11:31):
human resources professionalsjust announced it's distancing
itself from the word equity andremoving it from DEI.
What do you both think aboutthis move, and how do you
believe companies and executivesshould evolve their efforts
when it comes to DEI policies,given the current environment?

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah, I mean I don't think policies should or,
honestly, will, change.
You can't create a systems ofequality and fairness without
having equity.
Like it truly is impossible.
Like we always use the basicconcept of, if we all I mean
even if you're not versed in allhistory we understand that

(12:12):
through history there has been adisbalance and so you can't
just at some point say it'sequal if you don't actually have
tangible proof about how you'vedone things to make it back
balanced or make it back equaland so like.
While I'm not a fan of takingout the E, I also don't have the
E in my title.
That's a business choice thatI've been vocal about and don't
have say over, and so that'scool.

(12:32):
What I do know that we do isthat we do equity work, and so I
know that we have a pay equityaudit that we do each year to
make sure, across titles andacross gender and across
different demographic lines, arepeople being paid fairly?
I know that we look atequitable structures in the
sense of are our intentions of?
Is everyone actually welcomehere, being actually met with

(12:52):
our actions that we're doing?
Are you considering thedifferences that folks need and
then are you comfortable givingthose differences, more things
in order to make the balance out.
And so I know we're doing thework, and so that would be the
push that I would like give toany leader.
That I give to my leaders hereis like you call it, what you
want to call it.
We can just call it fairness,because then that makes it easy
for folks to say how would I notlike fairness?

(13:14):
Because fairness is not thesame thing as same right.
Everyone who has been in arelationship with people or have
kids or a caregiver understandsthe idea that two things can be
different and also be fair,based off who the individuals
are.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I will just say so I have to say that I am very
involved with SHRM.
I'm on the Oklahoma StateCouncil, I hold a position, and
so I do have to say that myinvolvement with SHRM, starting
from years ago in Tulsa, hasreally served me well, right.
So I have to honor that.
Being a part of theorganization has had its pluses

(13:48):
and they do do some things well,right?
Do I agree with that decision?
No, I do not agree with thatdecision, but I also feel like,
oh, shrm, the Society for HRManagement, so you'll see people
get like credentials.
So I have my SHRM seniorprofessional certification.
Back in the day it was HRI, Ithink, but that they separated

(14:13):
so that that that organizationstill exists, term, leads a lot
of the conversations regardingHR and has really important
seats at a lot of tables.
They really do.
And so am I disappointed in it?
I absolutely am, and I thinkthat I I know that I learned

(14:36):
really early in this work to notget distracted and so seeing it
was like dang, that stinks.
Y'all really made that.
Y'all really made that decision.
With a few people, you talk to afew people, but if you focus
there, you're missing a lot ofthe good in the world.
You're missing a lot of theorganizations that are getting
it right and missingopportunities to.

(14:57):
For me, I'm just more sofocused on the influence that I
have on my SHRM friends on thestate council.
I know that they're stillcommitted.
I mean, I've been to ruralareas in Oklahoma.
We'll be in Arkansas prettysoon to have these conversations
as a part of the SHRM chapters,and so when I think about the

(15:18):
influence and the way that theycontinue the conversation, I
just think about what I'm ableto still touch, because if I
start focusing on what I can'ttouch, I'm just going to be sad
for the rest of my life.
So the short answer is I'mreally disappointed.
If I have a conversation, Iwould say like man, could we
talk about it.
But at the end of the day, theconversations are still
happening and I don't want togive too much attention to the

(15:41):
distraction.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Great reminder for us all with everything going on.
I think a lot of thedistractions and a lot of the
things that are going on arereally based on, maybe,
assumptions that are made aroundyour roles or what DEI even is.
At a recent congressionalhearing, representative Crockett
highlighted this issue with theanti-DEI rhetoric that the

(16:04):
assumption is that diversityefforts means giving preference
to unqualified candidates, sothereby equating diversity with
lack of qualifications.
Have you guys encountered thismisconception in your personal
or professional experience?

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yes, yes.
So when I got my job, I youknow, they announced it and
there was a narrative out therethat the city hired a bald black
liberal woman to silence thewhite voice and hire a bunch of
black people and then said thatI should be replaced and sent to

(16:40):
the or not replaced, but sentto transfer to the sewer
department.
Uh, first of all, stop readingthe comments after that.
Uh, because I like to say thatnow I know why beyonce doesn't
read the comments really hasmoney to pay people.
But, like, I did not read anymore comments after that to stay
grounded in what was positive,right, um, but I say that to say

(17:02):
one, I usually and I learnedthis my time with One Oak asking
questions.
So when people think that I'llbe like, what's wrong with
hiring Black people and who toldyou that I was here to hire a
bunch of Black people?
But it's really hard for peopleto then be now they have to
vocalize, right, like they haveto vocalize what they're
thinking.
But also, this work isn't abouthiring a bunch of Black people.

(17:25):
I don't see anything wrong withhiring qualified Black people,
even when people are like sowe're really going to go, for
example, to an HBCU.
Do you really want tocompromise quality?
What are you saying here?
Like what is telling you thatgoing to an HBCU to recruit is
going to compromise quality?

(17:46):
And when we ask questions,typically people at least have
to swallow their words.
I'm not saying that they changetheir mind, but I don't even
tend to argue.
I'm just like asking questionson can you tell me, can you tell
me, why you feel that way?
The last thing I'll say, andI'll hand over to Mikel, is
again learning to focus on therelationships I can build to

(18:08):
then help people open theirhearts, because when people are
willing to sit and have theconversations about what we're
trying to accomplish, it isreally hard not to get on board.
It's really hard not to get onboard to say this is about
access.
This is about really, you know,looking at our systems to make
sure that they work foreverybody.
This is not and I'll say it,this is not a replacement
strategy for white men.

(18:28):
The white man that deserves thejob than the white man he's
being the role Right.
But this is about giving otherpeople access and opportunity to
achieve things that white mentend to achieve.
And, when I can, have thoseconversations.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
We're actually pretty successful in even getting
white men on board, just lettingthem know this isn't about
replacing you, yeah, I think.
Yeah, the replacement fearexists truly outside of D&I.
Right, there's throughoutAmerican history and European
history that that slogan orphrase has been used to do that
for a number of folks, right,and I think, to an extent,
there's a real level of likeinsecurity within the

(19:10):
masculinity because, while it'snot always men, it is typically
men, and I think there's a partof that position in society that
, when you really reckon withhistory, you truly have to
question, like was it thatAlbert Einstein was the most
brilliant man of all time, orwas it that his sister, who had
just as high of an IQ, didn'thave access to training and

(19:31):
didn't have access to investorsand didn't have access to all
these things?
And thus what we believe istruly a consequence of who we
chose to listen to, right, andso I think that's a big part of
the misconceptions I talk a lotabout.
We used a phrase.
I didn't love the phrase, butmy organization loved the phrase
.
When I started here with all ofour recruitment stuff, I was
like we're not, we're wideningthe gate, not lowering the bar.

(19:54):
I hated the second section ofnot lowering the bar because it
added the assumption, because somany people were assuming that
we were lowering the bar,assuming that we were lowering
the bar, so we had it as like aphrase and a slogan that really
helped with a lot of folks.
But for me, like that is thepiece, like I am truly just
trying to make sure that whatwe're doing is widening the gate
right, we are making sure and Ireally try to lean into some of

(20:15):
the more masculine tropes thatfolks have around competition of
just like, yeah, if you want tobe the best, you beat the best.
And I don't think that y'allhave really realized through
history, when you keep half ofthe population out of the
workforce, you weren't competingwith the best, you were
competing with the best of therest.
Right, and that idea that, likewomen can be and are the right,
successful and brilliant andsmart, and that people of color

(20:36):
have skills that view the worlddifferently, is a big thing.
I mean, shay, to your HBCUexample, like I often have to
spend time educating folksaround, oh, like you just assume
that, like Princeton and Yaleand Harvard are just the best
schools and not the idea that,well, there's plenty of and
they're great schools, and, fora black person in the US, plenty
of those campuses never allowedblack people in by the time

(20:57):
they did.
The experience people had therewasn't just the education.
So for many brilliant blackpeople they're like.
This is the only time I couldever go to any environment where
I could be in the majority andsee a range of diversity within
Black people that I will trulyprobably not experience again
outside of these four years.
That's why they're there.
So, yes, there's plenty oftalent there, right.
But the rationale that you mayhave as to why someone would go

(21:19):
there is because it's a lessgood school, right.
So it's a lot of like buildingon.
What are the mindsetsunderneath that that you have?

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Mikel, you talked a little bit about just some other
misconceptions that there arethe replacement theory, lowering
the bar, Shailen, I'd love tohear if you have any other
misconceptions that you'd liketo get in front of now.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
I mean, so I have a whole presentation.
It's called Include andReimagine, talking about what
it's not versus what it truly is, because there's a long list of
stuff, right, like this isn'tabout you or me, this is about
you and me.
This really isn't about thegolden rule, it's really about
the platinum rule.
But I cannot, and I definitelylove that.
It's not about reversediscrimination, it's about

(21:59):
relationships.
It's not about reversediscrimination, it's about
relationships For me.
I hate the term reversediscrimination because we all
know what reverse discriminationmeant.
Like we all just pictured thesame kind of human, not to say
reverse discrimination, but kindof to Mikel's point about the
statement he didn't like,sometimes you have to say it, so
then you can preference with.
I don't even like thisstatement, right, but this is
not about reverse discrimination, it's about relationships, and

(22:22):
I can't accomplish the platinumrule if I don't have a
relationship with you, right?
I also just like to remindpeople like this isn't about
religious rhetoric or likepolitical correctness.
This is really about respect,and most of our religions say
that we are grounded in respect,right, and so, like I will say
that, as a Christian, I love toremind people that, like one, if

(22:45):
Jesus, my Jesus, I want to bereally clear.
Not everyone on this call isChristian, I'm sure.
But I like to talk to theChristians to say if Jesus was
walking this earth, we'dprobably be real mad at him
because he would go to placesthat we won't go.
He would talk to people wewon't talk to, like, what Bible
are we reading from people?
And hopefully you know we canfigure out this Bible stuff in
the school, because even as aChristian I will just say

(23:06):
there's Christians in the church.
I don't want preaching on theBible, I don't want to share, I
don't want to talk about theBible.
Not every teacher does that,right.
But I just say that to say likethis isn't about politics, it's
about respect and there'salways a way to find a common
ground and a way to respectsomeone.
I like to give the examplearound pronouns.
Okay, you don't want to callsomeone their pronouns.

(23:28):
Call them their name.
No, you can never go wrongcalling somebody their name
right.
But we usually are so groundedand just committed to disrespect
they were like no way, I'm notdoing it.
Have you ever went wrongcalling someone their name?
As long as you're pronouncingit correctly and you're
committed to getting it right?
Um, call them their name, likeI.
So I like to have conversationswith people, just reminding

(23:49):
them like, don't just be socommitted to disrespect.
That.
That's what you stay groundedin, um, because at the end of
the day, this is about seeingpeople.
This is really about effectiveleadership.
Who on your team does not wantyou to say their name right,
right, um?
Who on your team does not wantyou to say their name right,
right?
Who on your team does not wantyou to ask where do you want to
go in life and how can I helpyou accomplish that?
And, as good leaders, again,call it what you want.

(24:12):
As good leaders, those are thequestions that we're asking.
What community partnershipdoesn't want you to come and say
how can I help serve you right?
And so when we can get likefocused on what it is that we're
trying to accomplish and stayout of the naming and all of
that stuff, we could really helpchange the trajectory of like
our country and really our world.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
I mean, Gabby, I'll, I'll, I'll add to that.
It's, I think, one big piecethat I've had to really like sit
with in the in the world ofcorporate is, like there is a
lot of.
I think the largestmisconception is that it's about
, like, a lot of actions andwhile there's a lot of actions
that may come through it, a lotof D&I is about awareness and
building your awareness right.

(24:52):
Like I.
We use the example now, becausethis is kind of our next big
evolution is like.
The idea that I have a number ofleaders that have never thought
about the way that menopauseimpacts women in the workplace
is wild to me.
So many of our employeesespecially if we think just age
correlations, grind and workhard 20s, 30s and then in their

(25:15):
40s are in these positions inleadership and XYZ, and I've
interviewed folks and said howhave you navigated those
conversations when it's like,yeah, I have brain fog on a
Tuesday at 3 pm?
That doesn't mean that mybrain's not working, but like
this is a symptom that I'm nowdealing with.
If my manager was aware of this, how much easier would the
world be to navigate instead ofhaving to do things where I'm

(25:37):
hiding stuff or having to movethings right, Like the idea that
I'm having to deal with all ofthis in the background while I
needed to show up, and that'ssuch a differing experience,
based off demographics, for somany people Like, or it's like
once.
You know that, though, I wouldnever want my employee to do
that and most leaders wouldn'tbut if we don't focus on
educating them because theyhaven't been educated, then

(25:58):
those types of actions andculture is going to persist, and
so I think for me, like, themisconception is that it's
always action.
I'm like no, it's a lot ofawareness.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
A Vest member asked what about performative efforts?
It seems as if manycorporations only show support
to other communities when it'scomfortable or trendy, but the
minute it gets uncomfortablethey back away.
This is how our guestsresponded.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
I think that a lot of the performative part, though,
is that and this is where, again, people may throw tomatoes at
me but I don't even think us asD&I practitioners are really
getting together to say what isit that we're trying to
accomplish?
And so we're not even all doingDEI the same, and the same is
relative right, like even withWilliams and One Oak being
across the street from eachother, they don't need to look

(26:47):
the same because they'redifferent organizations.
So I'm not saying like it's acookie cutter situation, but
like what we're trying toaccomplish.
I'll give you an example.
You know, I feel like somepeople don't even really
understand the differencebetween, like, social justice
work and DEI work, and so somepeople they take the social
justice approach, no-transcriptcorporate setting.

(27:29):
That makes it 10 times harderfor me.
Like 10 times harder for me ifI ever even get the job, if that
office even stays alive, right,usually after that, like it's
repurposed, you don't getanother chance.
So I'm saying that to say likeI think a lot of the
performative stuff a lot of itnot all of it is around.
People don't know what it isthat we're trying to accomplish.
They're not havingconversations like Markel and I

(27:50):
to say let's look at our systems, our policies, call it what you
want, but do they even stillwork?
A lot of the policies are from50 years ago.
They don't work for none of usRight.
Why is this thing a thing,right?
And so that's where I see a lotof the performative part.
The other thing that I'll say islike I think a lot of the
performative stuff is likearound fear and people just not

(28:11):
having the right conversation,but also sometimes the opposite
people doing the work and don'tknow how to.
Even like they're not eventalking to their DNI team.
If that makes sense, like, whatI'm grateful for at the city is
all of our leaders are part ofthis conversation.
A lot of it is because of howwe set up our equity council and
they're understanding that theway you develop your people,

(28:32):
that's DEI.
The way that you appreciate andrecognize your people, that's
DEI.
Like, let's look at ourengagement survey and we can
connect every single thing onthis engagement survey to DEI.
And once they learned that, theyrealized, huh, this really is a
part of my philosophy, thisreally is the kind of leader
that I want, to be right, andthese are the things that I can
do.

(28:52):
And now let's tell our storywell.
A lot of times people,companies don't tell their
stories well.
One thing again I learned atOne Oak was around the
importance of having a reallygood relationship with your
communications team so that weare adequately telling our story
around how it is that we'reaccomplishing DEI, beyond not

(29:13):
saying instead of, but beyondshowing up for the parades,
beyond having the culturalobservance Again, those are
important, but what's the otherstuff we're doing and how are we
connecting it to DEI so peoplesee that and understand that?
If that makes sense, mikel, Idon't know if you have anything
tied to that.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
No, I mean, I think it's like the first thing I had
to do when I got to Williams wasone give us a shared working
definition of what we mean whenwe say diversity, inclusion,
equity and belonging.
We have to have the sameconversation, because you can
have 20 definitions and I can'ttalk to you about what you have
in your head and what I have inmy head.
That may or may not be aligned,so we have to get on the same

(29:52):
page.
And the second I have to bevery transparent with goals and
data.
So it's really much moredifficult for someone to say I
feel like this is a replacementstrategy when I can show you
that in 2023, 75% of our newhires were white men.
Right, it doesn't mean thatit's 76% as it was the year
before, but like it's not whatyou say, it is right and you can

(30:13):
feel that way, but oftentimesorganizations, either through
fear or level of risk, aren'ttransparent with data and aren't
always transparent with goals,and so that's been like that's
always my push.
I think that's been.
The thing that I'm most proudabout my work here over the past
few years is how much moretransparent with everything
we've become, that's thenallowed folks to have kind of
more data.

(30:33):
I think justice to yourquestion here, like that's been.
Like my big thing is I don'tknow what it means to woke wash,
and so I can ask, like let's go, let's talk about what that
means, because what I want to dois make sure that all employees
have time to take off when theyhave a child.
I care that if your parent isbattling alzheimer's, that as a

(30:54):
caregiver, you're able to dothat and navigate your work at
the same time.
Right?
These are not.
These are things that, as aperson, we should all want and
we all benefit from.
However, when you use theseterms whether it's woke or DEI
or whatever then we're nothaving the conversation about
what we're doing.
And so I'm always that personwho's like I'm going to have the
conversation and typically,because they're asked in a

(31:16):
comment section if I'm doinglike a presentation or from the
audience it's not a let'sconnect offline I'm going to ask
that person to like let's goback here in this moment,
because what you may think wokeis maybe what someone else is
thinking, and I want you to haveto say that and I'm not going
to.
I'm not going to.
You know, troll, you be meanabout it, but I need to know
what you mean when you say thatbecause, as we know, these this

(31:39):
verbiage just starts to get usedin the world without people
having a clear understanding ofwhat they're saying and I can't
correct or even learn from youif you don't know what you're
saying, because you're justusing rhetoric that you've heard
somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
A Vest member asked how can you foster genuine
relationships to help you bemore effective, and how can you
find true allies at work?
This is how our guestsresponded.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
So I love this, both of these questions, because I
feel like they connect the twoquestions in the chat.
One relationships are myfavorite.
Like the first two to threeyears for us was about
relationships.
I'm talking coffee, I'm talkinglunch, and the reason why I say
it's my favorite is I'll giveyou one example.
When I first got to the city,people were like, oh my gosh,

(32:22):
how do I avoid this lady, right.
But once I was like, hey, howcan I help, how can I serve you?
And having these conversations Iwill never forget, about a year
and a half in one of ourdirectors, over one of our
really, really big he doesn'tcare if I share it utilities, so
he's our largest departmentoutside of public safety.
He was like let me, can I takeyou to lunch so we can argue?

(32:45):
Can I pay for your lunch so wecan argue?
And I was like not gonna argue.
And he was like no, I just knowyou're gonna disagree with
something and I really wanna tryto find a common ground.
That is a win for him to saylike I know you disagree, but I
feel like you are a safe placeto disagree with for us to find
a solution.
You are a safe place todisagree with for us to find a

(33:05):
solution.
And while I did disagree, Iabsolutely disagreed.
What was really cool?
Call it the universe, call itGod, call it whatever you want
to call it.
The next day, hr reaches out tome about something, because
what's beautiful about my roleis I'm not in HR.
It works in some organizations.
I love it because I reportdirectly to an assistant city
manager and can walk.
I'm in the city manager'soffice, so consider it the CEO.
I can walk straight up to theCEO, the city manager, and it

(33:28):
removes a lot of barriers and wecan talk about that in a second
.
On a lot of things that I wouldlove to talk to CEOs about and
DEI like please, but I say thatto say HR came to me

(34:04):
no-transcript, sexist,homophobic, whatever that looks
like, right, and that's whatthey're understanding.
Because some of them will say,shaylin, I thought you were
going to get here and call usall racist and I was like no, if
you are racist, we can talkabout it, but most of it is not
about you being racist, right,and so it's really about

(34:25):
relationships.
We're seeing it left and right,but it took time and I will say
some people like someone on myteam before.
She was very honest in saying,like I don't know that this work
is for me because I don't havetime for this, like I don't want
to coddle.
Sometimes it can feel likecoddling, sometimes it can feel
like you're babying people, butI just look at the long-term
game to know that if I can getthese people to see usually

(34:45):
white men, to see themselves inthis work and how it affects and
helps them, they will come onboard.
I literally have example afterexample.
I have one it wasn't herebecause I also consult, but
somebody was basically like well, I interviewed a black and a
white person and of course, thewhite person got it because he
was groomed for the role.
I interviewed a black and awhite person and of course, the
white person got it because hewas groomed for the role.

(35:06):
I was literally able to ask onequestion.
I said what do you mean by that?
Instantly he's like ah right,he instantly understood.
He was groomed, quote unquote,and I'm sorry if that triggers
anyone, but that's literally thewords that he used.
He literally understood.
He had access to me.
We hung out, I knew his, hisdreams, I put him on special
projects right and now in hisorganization he's one of the

(35:29):
biggest mentors.
We have that also at the city.
One of the first programs thatI started was a mentor circle
program.
I know that one oak had it fora while.
I know other organizations haveit and at first people even to
this day they're like Shaylin,why is mentor, even mentorship,
something that you even careabout at at the city?
Like, why aren't you worriedabout something else?
I say because tell me about atime that this many senior

(35:50):
leaders have been able to impactthis many employees alone.
But then look at thedemographics of the employees
that we're serving and when wecan get people to understand
this is about access and thesetypes of things they see
themselves in this work becausethen I can do something about
that.
I can mentor people, I can dothat right.
And so I'm saying that becausethat's how we've created allies.

(36:11):
We've created allies by reallybeing intentional about saying
this is how this looks, this ishow I need you to show up at
your level in the organizationand this is why it is not scary.
It should not be scary to you.
The last thing I'll say is weremain a resource to them.
I will tell them.
You do not have to have all theanswers because I don't Thank
you both.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Thank you both for sharing your perspective,
definitely on, you know maybe,the misconception of
performative DEI efforts, butthen also how you address the
you can address employees andcreate allies in your role can
address employees and createallies in your role.
I did want to give Srujita achance, if she wants to jump on
and ask her question, because Ithink it's also important as
someone in the workplace maybenot specifically in your role

(36:50):
how to create more allies aswell.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
Oh, I think Shailen and Michael touched on that.
But yeah, I can just expandthat.
You know it gets frustrating tooften be at least in the rooms
that I am, to be the onlyminority speaking up about these
issues, and sometimes it's like, oh, there she goes again, sort
of.
So it's.
And I've had greatconversations, you know one on
one, where it's nodding and it'snot combative, but then there's

(37:17):
still no speaking up and itjust gets frustrating because
there's only so much I can doand I want to keep doing it.
But I also don't want thatlabel of being like she's the
one always bringing it up.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the like, that's the
double bind, and thatfrustrating part about being any
of the quote, unquote others insettings where you're just not
a lot of us is like, I want tolike, I'll use me, I want to
show up as a strategist.
That's what I'm good at.
That's how my brain works.
I'm very good at that.
I'm seen still as the blackstrategist, right, or the DEI

(37:52):
guy because of a number offactors, right, and I sit with
that because that's needed fornow in order to create the
future where someone else canshow up in that way.
And so I think ways in whichI've done that effectively is
putting the folks in the room inpositions, and this is, I would
say, difficult.
The further up in anorganization you go, because the
level of daily privilege isjust so strong, it's hard.

(38:15):
But typically in those roomsthere's other folks that's like
yeah, don't you haveresponsibilities outside of work
?
Aren't you a caregiver outsideof work?
Do you have kids outside ofwork?
Do you navigate this aspect?
And so when we talk about anytopic in work, that's like
here's how we make the workplacemore conducive to the number of
these factors that someone'sbenefiting from or having to
deal with it makes it mucheasier for them to be like oh

(38:37):
yeah, this is true, this impactsme too.
Or, yes, like I've, I've had totake my mom to an eye doctor's
appointment and yet it took.
You know, it was supposed to be30 minutes, but she wasn't
ready, and then we were 10minutes late and then, like it
just right, the things thathappen and so I think that's
what that, for me, that's wherethose relationships come from is
like knowing who those folksare and then speaking my
language to them and sometimesgiving them my words of like

(38:59):
yeah, it would be really greatif we had more equitable systems
so that folks that are takingcare of their parents could be
able to do that.
We know that's a growingdemographic that is going to do
nothing but grow more.
How are we being intentionalabout that?
And then, when those bulbsclick off, I'm like, oh yeah,
you're right, I shouldn't haveto do this.
That helps, but I think thedifficult part is so many,

(39:25):
especially when we think of theolder generations the idea that
life and the idea that workshould be hard is a central
belief, and that's like.
I think the hardest mentalthing that I see folks struggle
with is like I just don'tbelieve that, like things can be
better.
But if I believe things shouldbe hard, then it's very hard to
ever talk about why we shouldmake them easier, because it
should be hard and that.
I think that's just afrustrating part.
So that's take that as you will, but I think that's where I've
seen success is kind of puttingthat into their language and

(39:47):
their lived experience.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Thank you.
I also wanted to comment.
A VAS member commented as well,saying that maybe in the past
she felt worried she wasspeaking over or in place of
someone with their own livedexperience, but she had friends
and colleagues guide her and, inessence, give her permission to
serve as an ally.
So sometimes just saying thatout loud and getting outside of
maybe our own misconceptions ofwhat it means to be an ally too,

(40:13):
might be helpful maybe our ownmisconceptions of what it means
to be an ally, too, might behelpful.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Well, one thing I'd just like to say is what we
don't know is are these peoplemore comfortable sometimes
having these conversationsoutside of the rooms that we're
in?
Whether it's because it's notappropriate to correct somebody
Sometimes it is.
Sometimes it's not in a publicsetting, but maybe they're
talking after the meeting ormaybe they didn't plan on it.
But that's when we can say,like, would you be open to
having this conversation,Because sometimes I'm not even

(40:42):
the one that's qualified to bethe one to say something right.
But allyship can be reallytricky because you also don't
want to speak for someone thatdoesn't want to be spoken for.
Right, Because I know thatthere's moments where there's
been people that's like, why didyou even say that to me?
For me I was fine, you know,and so it's just really tricky.
So I just think it'srelationships outside of those

(41:04):
rooms.
So you have a better idea ofhow they show up.
You might find out that theytalk to their peers all the time
, or their peers don't like themanymore because they spoke up
too much.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yes, definitely, Definitely some important again
just assumptions andmisconceptions to keep in mind
and, at the end of the day, likeyou said, just keeping respect
at the forefront, right?
Well, going back again, we haveleaders, women in different
organizations, differentindustries, leaders in their
respective fields as well, and Iwould love to hear from both of
you maybe what strategiesyou've seen that organizations

(41:45):
and that have worked right, thatorganizations use to create
those inclusive environmentswhere all employees feel valued
and heard, maybe even despitethose external challenges and
distractions.
I know you've mentioned a few,but maybe just some tips and
tricks for best members orpeople that are listening on the
podcast that they can kind oftake back to their organizations

(42:05):
as well.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely depends on what
you're doing.
So I think when I've consultedwith organizations, I'm much
more of like typically, someonethere who's bringing me in has
said a lot of the stuff I'vealready said.
They just need to hear it fromsomeone else to soften it and
oftentimes just to betransparent.
Sometimes it, coming from amale voice to a room full of men

(42:27):
, lands differently than it didthe woman that's been shouting
her head off for the past twoyears before she brought me in
Right, so I'll just name that tobe very clear.
Her hat off for the past twoyears before she brought me in
Right, so I'll just name that tobe very clear.
I think in my organization whatI've, what I like hang my hat on
a lot, is like I'm not in thebusiness of changing hearts and
minds.
If I could, I would findsomething very lucrative to do
where I could change hearts.
I'm in the business of creatingsystems and strategies that are

(42:50):
inclusive, and the nature ofcreating systems and structures
where you're, you are rewardedand you are seen and you are
valued for being inclusive meansfolks that don't have those
skills will either naturallyweed themselves out or will be
like oh, that's something weneed to do more of.
So, like I do things like ourcompetencies.
Every organization has somelevel of how you evaluated on.

(43:11):
We have a competency that Iadded in my first year of values
differences, which means youneed to, as a leader, have
things that you're doing on adaily basis or not a daily basis
, but things you're doing enoughto report on your end of year
evaluation.
What are you doing to show thatyou value differences?
Is it ERGs, is it mentorship?
Is it this community project?
So it's putting those thingsinto how people are actually

(43:34):
evaluated.
So then, on the front end, allof the trainings, the mentoring,
the coaching, that's nowbecomes a pull instead of a push
on the organization.
I want those things becausethen I'm better prepared to do
my job, so that I'm evaluatedfairly, because ultimately this
impacts my pay right.
So I'm very big on like buildingsystems and structures and
that's what I've seen like besuper helpful for that.

(43:55):
Because then that leader thatwas doing the every Friday
barbecue that he was wanting todo to be fun and build
perspective and like have a goodtime with his employees and you
have three vegetarians havejust eaten beans and potato
salad for two months, likethat's not, they jam right.
But when you get that awarenessof like, oh, I want to get
better at that.
What are ways I can fix my likestructures I have now?

(44:17):
It's simple, it's easy.
I help you match your intentions, because a lot of leaders have
really strong intentions thatthey just miss with their impact
um and so that's what I've seena lot of um.
And then there's like the bigstructures right, employee
resource groups help a lot.
Uh, diversity, inclusioncouncils that help make
decisions help a lot, but Ireally hang my hat on like a lot
.
Diversity and inclusioncouncils that help make
decisions help a lot, but Ireally hang my hat on a lot of

(44:37):
the policies around evaluation.
If I can get something in therethat we're saying this is how
you show that you value thiswork and you're doing this work.
It's going to really help easethe burden of stuff happening.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
So, for me, I like to remind people and I'm going to
oversimplify this one, and thishas nothing to do with my
current role because I'm in themunicipality but I like to
remind people that money talks,and if our organizations and we
have some really big ones onthis call, if our organizations
would get very courageous andbold, and what we aren't willing

(45:10):
to fund anymore and what we arewilling to fund like so much
would change right.
And so I'll give an example.
I used to.
I was consulting with anorganization that gave to an
organization that, like, if youread the fine print, had some
discriminatory stuff in it tiedto the LGBTQ community as an
organization.
If you say that you value allpeople you're showing up in the

(45:32):
pride parades, why are yougiving money to this
organization that clearly sayswe do not value all people?
That's not matching.
And so what is the strategythere?
Even if it's telling thatorganization, I need you to
either have this conversationand fix it in the next couple of
years, like I'm not saying justgo remove the rug from
everybody.
That is not what I'm saying.
But if it's sellingorganizations like this is the

(45:54):
expectation that I have of you,if I'm going to continue to give
man, will we change a lot ofthings?
Right, and I know that thatmight not necessarily feel like
it applies to the colleges, butlet's be honest, we love to go
and, you know, set up a booth atthe recruiting fairs.
How are we also saying I willinvest in your organizations if
you continue to do X, y, z,because I need these students to

(46:16):
come to us ready.
We need these students to cometo us ready.
I need you to be practicingthis in the universities.
Don't come here with that stuff.
Right.
And if more organizations wouldstep up and really put their
money where their mouth is, tobe honest, we say we're
committed to it.
What does our dollar show?
Where are we willing to show up?
And a lot of people on thiscall have that power right.

(46:40):
As CEOs, no matter the size ofyour organization, being very
intentional about where you givein itself could help change the
trajectory of this conversation.
Because, like what gets funded,like really you know it's also.
It's kind of similar as likewhat's measured is moved right.
Same with funded Like.
If I put more resources intothese organizations that are

(47:01):
standing up for the right things, but they need our money, we
can really change a lot and Ithink we all understand that
because we know that money talksright, and I know it's easier
said than done.
Like I want to be really clear.
I know you can't go to someorganization, especially on here
, if you aren't the CEO.
Sometimes we're only fundingthat because the CEO has some

(47:21):
commitment to it, right, likewe're only showing up to that
college because the CEO and allof the generations after the CEO
graduated from that college.
So I'm really aware that thisis way easier said than done,
but that's really where a lot ofthe stuff would move if we
would look at our dollars.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Well, I'll show you like, just to add.
I think our big cause that's apart of the human rights
campaign is like for customersand suppliers even as a company,
we have non-discriminatorypolicy, we do not discriminate.
We require that of oursuppliers, to say that they
don't discriminate, but we don'tfor folks that we give
charitable to right, and so thatidea like that's the same
conversation is like hey, if wehold ourselves to that standard,

(47:59):
just why would we not holdothers to that standard, right,
even as blanketed as that allowsthose wheels to start?

Speaker 1 (48:06):
turning for folks.
I love that Absolutely and Ithink that's a very, very much
needed topic, especially instates, you know, like Oklahoma
and Texas, where a majority ofour best members are, where you
know, right now we're seeing alot of anti-DI programs and laws
and things like that.
So thank you for thetruthfulness and honesty on that

(48:28):
, I think to Erica's question.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Gabby, I know we're getting close on time.
I think, like my like quickanswer on that is like we were
very clear with organizations.
We were on the phone with OUand OSU like days after the
executive order came out saying,like cool, this is still what
we're looking for for students.
And so while I'll be supportiveof XYZ if that means that I'm

(48:51):
giving to first generations incollege programs like that's
what I'm going to do and I thinkthe pressure of them to
advocate for themselves of likeI won't always give to the
College of Business, I'm goingto give to that student
organization that supports thosestudents, right.
And so if it's even outside ofthis, like DEI umbrella, I'm
wanting women in STEM.

(49:11):
So I need to be figuring outand y'all can support me if you
want to be a part of this how amI getting women from STEM from
your campuses and how are wemaking that work?
And so that's been kind of ourapproach is like the reason we
partnered with you in the firstplace is because we want this
talent, and if y'all have todance through hoops to figure
out how that works, you can apart of that with us or we can

(49:32):
just be like hey, we're going toprovide scholarships for 12
Black kids to go to the NationalBlacks in Energy Conference and
then we're going to go recruitthem there.
It doesn't matter to me.
I want to continue to be inpartnership and have access to
this talent.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
So what did he just say?
In two words Money talks.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
Yeah, big time.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I want to be really clear when I say that.
Again, I want to say it is notin the capacity of my current
role because we can't give moneyto anybody, but as Shailene, as
a human, just likes to remindpeople that many times We've had
, I think, so many takeawaysfrom this session, but what is
your last piece of advice ortakeaways to CEO, best members
and those listening to thepodcast?

Speaker 3 (50:13):
Yeah, quick takeaways .
Ground yourself in research.
The demographics of theworkforce is changing, the
values of what people want inthe workforce is changing and
will continue to change, andthen how people want to work is
changing.
You can choose to be on thefront end of that and have
access to the most brillianttalent, or you can choose to be
on the back end and fight it.

(50:34):
But it is very clear that it'schanging and there's nothing
that we can do about that, andorganizations that are trying
are going to continue tostruggle.
So lean into the future,continue to build your awareness
and perspective throughopinions, through talking to
folks and through data.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
As humans.
I just want to remind everyone,like if most of us inherently
are good people and almost allof us are going to say we're
good people and we really needto ask ourselves if what we're
saying and doing really alignswith being a great person.
Like, are we really taking careof humans, no matter what we
call it?
Are we loving humans?
Humans I know people feel likethat's too touchy-feely, but the

(51:13):
truth is, this is about lovingone another enough to say how
can I show up for you in a waythat you continue to show up for
our business?
At the end of the day, you aregetting the best out of your
people.
When you take care of people,people take care of you and
unfortunately, sometimes you gotto connect to the dollar and
you got to connect it to thebusiness, for people.
Take care of people and peoplewill take care of you.

(51:33):
That's for colleagues, that'sfor you know, no matter what,
that's for everybody.
What I specifically want to sayfor CEOs is that it's time to
get bold, it's time to getcourageous.
Ceos can't stay silent anymore.
Ceos have because I know anumber of CEOs that are
committed to this they just knowthat, when it comes to you know
, their constituents or theirboard.

(51:53):
They have to have a differentvoice.
Man, talk about even that initself not being able to live
authentically.
That's wild.
But if enough of us would speakup because most of us don't
dislike DEI, it's thedistractors and the people that
are willing to get really boldand loud that's getting a lot of
attention.

(52:13):
Most of us are committed tothis conversation or, at bare
minimum, committed to doing theright thing for people, but
we're scared, whether it'sbecause we're going to lose
money, we're going to loserelationships, whatever that
looks like and so I just like toremind people, but especially
CEOs, like this is the time tobe bold, courageous, really lean
in and then just be reminded ofwhat you needed when you were

(52:34):
on the front line.
A lot of times I see leadersmaking decisions in ways that
they would have never wantedtheir leader to make the
decision when they were on thefront line, really thinking, and
a lot of that is about spendingtime with these individuals,
whether it's twice a year, goinginto the front line, working
alongside them, doing focusgroups, whatever that looks like
, just to be reminded of what weneeded, Because a lot of times

(52:55):
I'll hear leaders be like Ican't believe they asked for
that.
You would have asked for that.
The reason why you're notasking for it is because you
have that ability.
Let's talk about working fromhome.
You have the flexibility toleave right now and do whatever
it is you need to do.
So I know I just got back onanother soapbox, but just really
it's about empathy.
Equity is empathy, DEI work isempathy, and if we can be
empathetic, we can go so far.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
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