July 21, 2025 • 40 mins
Burnout has reached epidemic proportions among professional women. The numbers tell a sobering story: 43% of women leaders report feeling burned out compared to just 31% of men at the same level. What's driving this disparity? Our powerful conversation with the VEST Team reveals two key culprits: perfectionism and people-pleasing.
Research from the University of British Columbia shows that perfectionism is strongly linked to anxiety, depression, and chronic stress. Multiple studies also show women are more likely to engage in people-pleasing behaviors at work, often out of fear of being seen as difficult or unlikable.
Join us as we dive into the science behind these patterns, exploring how perfectionism correlates with anxiety and depression, while people-pleasing gradually erodes our boundaries until we're running on empty. The most illuminating moments come when our team shares their personal struggles with these tendencies, from the pressure to be "supermoms" and "super workers" to the fear of what might happen if they stop doing so much.
We discuss what rest actually looks like in different seasons of life. For those with young children, it might be just an hour to choose what you do yourself rather than responding to others' needs. We share simple but powerful strategies: replacing "should" with "could," taking a pause before automatically saying yes, time-blocking to ensure dedicated rest periods, and perhaps most importantly, getting comfortable asking for help.
We also talked about how perfectionism and growth cannot coexist. When we demand perfection from ourselves, we create an environment where learning and authentic connection become impossible. By reframing rest not as a luxury but as an essential professional skill, we open the door to greater creativity, better decision-making, and sustainable success.
Whether you're a chronic people-pleaser, a perfectionist, or simply feeling the weight of trying to do it all, this episode offers both validation and practical tools to break these patterns. Join our conversation and discover how establishing healthier boundaries can transform not just how you feel, but how effectively you lead.
For the VEST Team full bios, Self-Awareness Exercise and Show notes click here.
If you enjoy the episode share it with a friend, leave us a review and don't forget to hit the subscribe button. If you are ready to take your career and business to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Burnout is at an all-time high.
According to McKinsey and LeanIn's Women in the Workplace
report, 43% of women leaders saythey feel burned out, compared
to just 31% of men at the samelevel.
The constant need to achieveperfectionism is a key
contributor to this.
Research from the University ofBritish Columbia shows that
(00:20):
perfectionism is strongly linkedto anxiety, depression and
chronic stress.
People-pleasing is anothermajor contributor.
Studies show women are morelikely to engage in
people-pleasing behaviors, oftenout of fear of being seen as
difficult or unlikable.
Over time, this erodesboundaries and leads to
emotional and physicalexhaustion.
(00:42):
This is why today we're talkingabout how rest is not a luxury,
but rather a necessary skill wemust add to our toolbox.
In fact, the AmericanPsychological Association
reports that chronic stress andlack of rest reduces
productivity, decision-makingability and innovation all
traits that are essential to howwe're showing up at work.
(01:04):
And innovation all traits thatare essential to how we're
showing up at work.
Hey everyone, I'm Erika Lucas,founder of Vest and your host
for today's episode.
Today, our team is recapping apowerful session we recently
held with Vest members, where weexplore how perfectionism and
people-pleasing show up in ourlives and our careers and how
this often leads to burnout.
(01:24):
More importantly, we discusswhat it means to begin resisting
these patterns.
For our team's full bios, theself-awareness exercise and
other show notes go towwwvestherco forward slash
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
(01:45):
Where do you feel pressure toperform, or people, please?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think I'll start with this one.
For me it's in a lot of places.
I feel like I'm a recoveringpeople pleaser, still working on
that every day, trying to makesure that I also take care of
myself and not just everyoneelse.
And so the idea of like thesuper mom, the super woman,
(02:12):
feels so strongly in me and solike I'm proud of all the things
that I do.
But also it's the idea of Idon't know like having having to
be perfect in a lot ofdifferent places and if you
misstep, you know, or put toomuch effort in one box, are you,
(02:33):
you know, draining yourself inanother box?
And so I think a lot of thetimes it's like okay, having
those moments to really check inand make sure that I'm also
filling that box in myself, andlike filling my cup.
That messaging I think is superimportant, is feeling my own
cup before I am able to pourinto others, right.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
So yeah, I mean, I think about that.
I always think I'm also arecovering people, pleaser.
Hello, I'm Jay.
I think about that airplanevisual and what they tell you,
with moms like you have to putthe mask on yourself before you
put it on your kid or whoeveryou're taking care of, and
(03:18):
that's just a simple and goodreminder for me, too, for how to
live, reminder for me, too, touh, for how to live, um, because
it shows up for me too, um, onthe daily and sometimes it's
funny, that guilt that you feelwith you know, trying to be
perfect people pleasing thosearound to those around you.
It can, it can be debilitating,and then you're like frozen and
(03:41):
then, and then it builds becauseyou're kind of frozen and, um,
you're not getting you know whatyou think you need to get done,
and it's like this pilingmountain of perfectionism that,
at the end of the day, is isjust mostly, most of the time,
in our own heads, um, and weexpect more from ourselves than
(04:01):
than most people do, um, so Ialways like to remember that the
airplane, you know putting themask on before you put it on on
others and um, something elsethat helps me is I actually was,
you know, went to therapy andtalked about this topic a lot,
um, and I would always tell mytherapist like I should, you
know, I think I should, should,should, and she told me, well,
(04:25):
or you could, you know, it's notever really should, it's could
you.
You know, and I think that helpsme reframe things in my brain
too it's I could do this or Icould do this, and maybe this
option makes me feel a littlebetter and it's not actually
people pleasing Like this is anoption I want to do.
So taking the should out of myvocabulary really helps me as
(04:47):
well.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I love that, jay.
I think we're all benefitingfrom your therapy sessions when
you share the takeaway.
So, yeah, it's just just sotrue, right, and Gabby, I think
you said it too like this ideaof the supermom or the super
worker or the super, whateverit's pressures that sometimes
(05:09):
are external, right, theexpectation, like who defined
what a supermom looks like?
And does that idea of thesupermom even exist and is it
realistic and is it sustainable?
But sometimes and we know allof this, right, we've read about
it, we know it.
But sometimes and we know allof this, right, we've read about
it, we know it, but it's reallyhard to process it because
sometimes we just internalize itwithout even realizing it.
(05:31):
So I love those exercises, jay,that you talked about.
And so to do an accountabilitycheck on us too what does rest
look like for you guys right now?
And let's add one more whatgets in the way of it?
Speaker 4 (05:49):
I'll start with this one.
This is, I think one of themembers yesterday mentioned that
rest can look very different indifferent seasons in life, and
I think that really resonateswith me, because my rest with
two young children might notlook the same as others.
To be honest, I think restcould look like one hour of just
(06:14):
not even physically resting,but getting to choose what I do
myself and not having to dowhat's needed or what others
want me to do for them.
So that's what rest looks likefor me in this season right now,
and it might not be the samefor everyone else, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I totally get that, sarah.
Yeah, two kiddos, one thatstill comes into my bed every
morning at three in the morning.
So, yeah, rest is a superimportant um, yeah.
However, however, it looks likeRight, um, I think for me it's,
um, finishing my coffee, beingable to take the time to finish
(06:58):
my coffee in the morning beforeit gets cold, not having to
reheat it or anything.
And then also, sometimes, youknow I'm I fall into the
category of sometimes likefeeling like I need to either
schedule out my whole day or dosomething at all times, right,
so taking that moment to reallyrest is is important and I need
(07:20):
to remind myself of that a lot.
And so sometimes, you know, Imay set my alarm with, like the,
you know, the 6am, the 610am,615am, make sure I'm up by a
certain time.
And then I've learned that,like, okay, I'm cutting into my
own rest time and so if maybe Idon't wake up at you know, 530
or six o'clock in the morning,but I received that extra bit of
(07:44):
rest, um, and you know I'll,I'll find a way to fill out that
time afterwards, but, you know,not pushing myself when I know
my body actually needs theactual rest as well.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I think one of the members yesterday talked about,
um, what getting what gets inthe way of her rest is her
self-inflicted wound of thepressure of her schedule, and
you know she needs to be at workat this time and then she needs
to work out here, so she needsto, you know, cook herself these
(08:20):
foods, these foods, and thenit's like then there's no time
to rest because you're just kindof ticking off all your boxes
for the day instead of enjoyingit and being in the moment,
which I think we can all relateto.
Kind of goes back to what I wassaying about the shoulds versus
the coulds.
And, yeah, I think trying toavoid that self-inflicted wound
(08:44):
is hard, uh.
But you know, carving out timespecifically, even if you need
to add it into your schedule, isimportant, um, so for me it
looks like, you know, walks inthe evenings, when it's when
it's a little bit cooler out, um, uh, just to take that time to
really reset and focus and andknow that I did a good job
(09:05):
during the day and whatever Idid, I did and what I didn't get
done, it can wait untiltomorrow.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
A hundred percent.
And again it ties it all backto like, what are the
expectations, you know, like arethey our own self inflicted
wounds and expectations, or arethey societal expectations,
conflicted ones and expectations, or are they societal
expectations?
So, yeah, all very much tied up.
And, gabby and Sarah, I have tosay I think about you all the
time, you both all the time withlittle kids, because, you know,
(09:34):
as I'm like, I get up reallyearly and I get to start my work
at six or seven.
You know, and I think often of,like you know, when I had
little kids, you know I had todrop them off and pick them up
and like it was just, it waschaotic, you know, because of
everything that you have to fitin, and so I I just appreciate
(09:58):
you both so much.
And you know, it also makes mequestion a lot of like the silly
rules we have at work, right,you know it also makes me
question a lot of like the sillyrules we have at work, right,
like we start meetings at 8 am.
Well, people, parents orcaregivers are still dropping
off their kids.
They're, you know, they didn'tget to drink their coffee or
maybe they're having to reheatit, and who made up the rules
that we have to start work ateight, you know, as long as work
(10:20):
gets done, like anyway.
So you know we could do also,since this is obviously a show
for women professionals who arebuilding more inclusive
workspaces, it's also, you know,our.
One thing we could do inaddition to taking care of
ourselves is just like thinkabout the rules that we impose
(10:40):
at work that may not be verysuitable to working moms,
working parents, caregivers.
Who made up those rules anyway?
And are they still, you know,supporting the workplace that we
see today?
Anyway, so really appreciateyou both and we do what we can
(11:01):
to support you, but I know it'sstill chaotic and hard to be a
parent with small kiddos.
What are you afraid of, or whatare you afraid will happen?
What are you afraid will happenIf you stop doing so much?
What is that fear?
What is that anxiety?
What do you think it's going tohappen?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think, members, really this is a common theme in
our working session and theidea of if I don't get it done,
who will Got brought up a lotwhich definitely resonates with
me.
It's that pressure right To bethe super whatever it is to be
(11:46):
the super mom, super woman,super worker.
Right to be the super, whateverit is to be the super mom,
superwoman, super worker, um,and sometimes it is like there
there is more um, uh,expectations just based on you
know where you are in yourcareer level.
You have differentresponsibilities, right, um, and
and sometimes it can be a thingof accountability of whoever is
on the other end.
(12:07):
Are they being accountable andbeing held accountable for their
responsibilities and how dothose two things work together?
But I think sometimes it goesback to that internal Is it an
internal pressure versus anexternal pressure?
And, really reflecting onwhatever is kind of coming up,
(12:29):
is this something that could behandled with, maybe better
systems, processes,communication, or is this
something that needs to be dealtwith internally of?
I don't trust that this willget done, so I just need to do
it, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Or am I communicating ?
Yes, I was watching or I waslistening to a podcast recently
that was saying that the numberone reason for divorce is not
money and it's not cheating,it's lack of communication of
expectations with your partner.
And I think that can be appliedto work right.
If we don't clearly communicatewhat our expectations are.
(13:10):
And I'm not just talking.
You know team lead and you knowpeople underneath.
I'm talking about even.
You know, if you're workingunderneath a leader and you're
not communicating, that youdon't feel supported, that you
don't have the right tools to doyour job, that you didn't get
clear instructions to perform,so, anyways, I just think I
(13:34):
remember the pattern as well ofwomen communicating that.
But then also communication wasa big part of that discussion,
like making sure that we'recommunicating, asking for help.
You know from our supportsystem whether that's our spouse
, like if it's at home, ifthat's our spouses, if that's,
you know, whatever supportsystem we have, being vulnerable
(13:55):
enough to ask for help, beingvulnerable enough to let others
help, and it doesn't.
The job doesn't have to getdone exactly how we would do it.
I say this all the time, likewhen Chris helps me and he helps
me a lot, but when he helps medo something and it's not to my
standards, I'm like just let itgo.
He's helping you know, itdoesn't have to be exactly how
(14:15):
you do it.
So, anyways, great conversation.
Anything you want to add, sarahJay?
Speaker 4 (14:21):
I think that's the key though letting people help
and being able to let go of that, some of that control, because
I really struggle with that.
I would rather spend more timedoing something than asking
someone else's help andexplaining how it should be done
and you know, sort ofsupervising or whatnot, and then
(14:44):
I get really upset when it'snot done the right way.
So I don't know, at least forme, a lot of of it is about
control, and that's clearlysomething that I need to work um
, work on um, so that I can justlet go and give more control to
others.
It's not that they don't wantto help, it's that I'm not
letting them help, um, but thatties in, I think, identity as
(15:09):
well, where I'm like the eldestdaughter I love, like my
identity is so much tied to,like, caregiving and helping and
taking care of things forothers.
So, yeah, it's, it's a lotbigger, a lot more than than
just, yeah, getting things donemyself.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
But A hundred percent and we didn't really get to
dive into.
You know, obviously most of ourbest sessions are never long
enough right To go into um intodetails.
But, yeah, there's, there's.
You know how we were raised.
Um, uh, you know immigrant.
Uh, you know we, we all workwith immigrant founders.
Um, uh, you know, uh, even, youknow women professionals who
(15:50):
are immigrants, and there's thisadditional sense of like you
have to work as hard as you can.
I mean, we even have a sayingyou know you rest, you know when
you're dead.
So we don't prioritize rest andit's part of our pride, as part
of our culture, you know, to beknown as this hard worker.
So, anyways, lots of trauma,lots of things that can
(16:11):
influence some of theexpectations that you
self-impose.
Being the first, the oldestdaughter, I mean, oh, my gosh,
that's so true across the board.
So what would you?
I think this was a veryinteresting question because I
think that, as um highperforming women, again, we take
(16:34):
on a lot of the responsibilityand, uh, we are very hard with
ourselves.
Um, right, but if we were givenadvice to other people, we tend
to be kind and understandingand gentle, but never with
ourselves.
So the question, and I want youto answer this, not like what
(16:55):
other members might have said orother patterns, but just for
you.
If you were given advice to afriend based on what you've
shared, that you areexperiencing and feeling, and
what's prohibiting you fromresting, if you were going to
give advice to a friend, whatwould you say to them If they
were in your shoes?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
I'm happy to go answer this one.
Um, first, I would tell themthat they aren't alone in that
feeling that you know.
I think that if you ask anyone,they can relate to that feeling
, especially women, especiallyworking women, especially
working moms, and and um, it's,I think it's a very common
(17:38):
feeling.
Um, so, first, you're not alone.
Um, I think the second thing Iwould tell them is everything is
not going to fall apart if youhelp yourself.
Um, and then I would tell themis everything is not going to
fall apart if you help yourself.
And then I would ask them maybewhere can you ask for help?
Because I know that that's agood question, because you know
(17:58):
you're like ask for help, askfor help, and it's they're like
well, I have to do these thingsor everything's going to fall
apart.
And so I think a good questionto to encourage people and to
ask yourself is where can I askfor help?
You know, start with what I'mcomfortable with delegating off,
and I think that's a good startto being more comfortable with
(18:20):
asking for help.
Comfortable.
Then you start, you know,moving along and you realize
that the things that you wereuncomfortable about asking for
help, you maybe become morecomfortable.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I love that Jay.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, that was great, and I feel like all your little
nuggets.
I'm like let me write this downand where can I ask for help?
What can I change from shouldto?
Could I appreciate your inputon that?
Yeah, I think I would.
Especially the first one Ithink is super important is
you're not alone in this.
(19:00):
Like who can you reach out towhen you are feeling down?
Because I think sometimes it isthat like, let me just power
through, let me just get throughit, you know, and so as a if
our my close friend, I would saylike one, you can reach out to
me anytime you feel this way.
But also, like who else can youreach out to Right?
(19:22):
Like, when you're in those downmoments, who's in your speed
dial of?
Like, um, you know closefriends that will come to your
aid immediately.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And I love that you said, jay, because it's so true.
We often say you know, ask forhelp.
But hell, if you're a singlemom or you don't have a support
system, who the hell do you askfor help?
So I think that, but by goingdeep and like, well, do you have
friends, aunties, you know?
Maybe it's time to join anetwork like best of peers.
(19:55):
Right, it doesn't have to befamily.
We know that there's also womenout there that don't have a
support system and maybe theydon't, they're not close to
their family.
So, anyways, just loved all thethree tips that you shared.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
I was also going to say just how much, how
meaningful it can be to join anetwork like this, because
you're you know how you oftenfeel by attending these sessions
, that so many other people arefeeling in a similar way.
So not only they validate howyou're feeling, but you can
really talk to one another andsupport one another, which I
(20:34):
find really wonderful and justvalidating and nourishing.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So, if yeah, not feeling inadequate, right?
I think you said it too, jay,at the beginning.
It's like so often weinternalize and we isolate
ourselves because we think we'rethe only ones that can't keep
up with being the super mom orcan keep up with being the super
worker, and the reality is mostof us are dealing with the same
shit, regardless of industry,regardless of levels in our
(21:04):
companies.
So the more we normalizetalking about these experiences
and how they show up for us insimilar ways or in different
ways, I think it's veryimportant.
How does perfectionism orpeople-pleasing show up in your
work or relationships?
And we've already covered thisa little bit, but give me an
example, like if you can thinkof an example where this showed
(21:29):
up for you Anyone?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, I think that you know, even when it comes to
family and I'm the youngest offive I you all, you all here
know I'm crazy about my familyand the people around me, sister
, or your mom, or the peoplethat you know you need to say
(21:58):
yes to all the time.
If they want to go to lunch, ifthey want to and you are just
tired, you can say no and youcan tell them.
You know, I love you, I justneed to rest.
And I feel that, sarah, you'retalking about, you know, being
the oldest and the pressures andthe perfectionism that comes
(22:19):
with being the oldest.
I think for being the youngest,it's like I feel like I was
adored so much that I need toalways show that back.
And you know, if my sistercalls, I need to pick up.
If my mom calls, I need to pickup.
If my brother wants to go tolunch, I need to go to lunch
calls, I need to pick up.
If my brother wants to go tolunch, I need to go to lunch.
(22:40):
And it's like you know, maybe Ijust need to take a nap or
maybe I just, you know, need tohave an hour, like you said,
sarah, of not doing anything andnot having anyone, you know,
talking to me and just be freefor an hour.
So for me it's even it's funny,but for me it's even uh, it's
funny, but for me it's even mysupport system.
You know, sometimes I need toset boundaries, even with my
(23:02):
support system, um, and I thinkthat's allowed and you can do
that.
Anyone else?
Speaker 4 (23:10):
For me, it shows up at work in a way where I feel
like I have to constantlyperform perfectly and if I don't
that, I can't that I failed andall of this.
But I am so fortunate to workwith all of you because you're
always so open and transparentand graceful, and so this is a
very healing.
I don't know support networkthat I have through work, but
(23:36):
that is definitely like thispersistent voice to say are you
not doing enough, why are youdoing this wrong or why are you
not, you know, performing more?
Whatever it is, there's alwaysthat constant voice, but it is.
It is absolutely so.
I'm so grateful to have to havethe team that is always so
supportive and it sort of justpushes that voice away.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I'm grateful to have you.
Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely.
And, like I said earlier, inwhat way does it not show up?
Definitely at work or at home.
I definitely understand that,jay, where it's like can't say
no, you can't say no Been tryingto work on that too.
And then at work, I think it'slike that need to constantly be
(24:22):
available.
I think that's something thathas shown up and again, I've
tried to work towards, andsometimes I have to catch myself
and like, no, it's 4.59 on aFriday.
You know, I don't need toanswer this email right now.
And one thing that I've learnedthat I don't use often enough
is just like schedule send.
So that way, one, it doesn'tget lost in my inbox, but two,
(24:42):
it's like, okay, I kind of setthat boundary of like I won't
respond after a certain time orI'm not available to just
whoever after a certain time.
But yeah, that's littleinstances where I know it's
definitely shown up for me, butyeah, that's little instances
where I know it's definitelyshown up for me.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I think that working with Stitch Crew, which
is, you know, our other pillarorganization, which is a
nonprofit that supportsentrepreneurs, and then,
obviously, launching both StitchCrew and Vest, which is an
entity on its own and a businesson its own, and I think that my
mindset shifted tremendouslyfrom being in corporate America
(25:21):
or in traditional jobs versusworking as an entrepreneur, and
I used to.
You know, like, I mean thatit's hard to let go Right,
because at the beginning, GabbyI don't know if you remember,
but with Stitch Grow Invest, wetried to be perfect but it
wasn't and it was okay, right,like if we made mistakes, like
(25:42):
the world didn't fall, you know,like, okay.
So we, you know, made a mistakeon a blog post that we did, or
we, I don't know.
You know the website.
I mean, oh my gosh, how manyversions of the website have
we've improved over time, and so, anyways, I do think that being
an entrepreneur, having smallerteams, is so helpful and it's
(26:03):
definitely a privilege becauseyou can iterate so fast and you
can learn from mistakes and youactually embrace being scrappy
and and fast, and you know thatbecause of that, you're going to
likely make mistakes and it'sokay.
But in traditional work settingsthat's not always the case,
right, especially if they'revery competitive work
(26:25):
environments or if you don'thave a culture that embraces
making mistakes or if you haveinternal traumas that also show
up in, like you say, sarah.
You know the constant need of.
I'm not saying that you havetrauma, sarah, I'm just saying
that sometimes you know, we dointernalize, I do, I certainly
do have trauma.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
We all do Another recovering people pleaser so
here we are.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I think all of us are which leads to the next
question perfectly.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Before we go into that too, though, I think it's
important to note that you knowconversations like these and
conversations that we have atVest you made it there or as
even CEOs, like oh, you see theCEO, and now they're, they're
killing it and you know theyhave everything together, but in
(27:27):
reality, like they're stillmessing up too, or that all the
steps that it took to get there.
Or as founders, like all thedifferent versions of the
website, the logo, this, that,the other.
So I think it's important tohave like these conversations
too, because people areconstantly changing and evolving
, and, whether it's theirbusiness, through, you know,
just personal life.
(27:48):
It's important to know that,like this isn't anyone's final
version, right, we're all justconstantly trying to just grow.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah Well, first of all, perfection is a myth, right
, there's just, and we know this, like we know this, but I guess
it's just hard to again whenyou internalize things.
But what I often tell people isperfection and growth can't
coexist, right, because ifyou're perfect, then you don't
need to grow, and how boringwould that be.
So it's just about growing andlearning and improving over time
(28:21):
and being curious about how wecan continue to improve.
But it's not from a judgmentalit doesn't need to come from a
judgmental place, but rather,you know, a learning mindset.
So thank you for adding that.
So, thank you for adding that.
(28:43):
So you know, you all talked alittle bit about, like you know,
how hard sometimes being peoplepleasers, how hard it is to say
no.
So the next question, one thatwe asked members to, is when
have you felt the cost of doingtoo much or saying yes when, in
reality, what you wanted to saywas no, to say was no, and I
know that a lot of membersimmediately said oh my gosh,
like you know the pressure tosay yes because you feel bad,
jay, because you feel like youhave to be available.
(29:04):
Gabby, you know, sometimesyou're so good at your job that
you are, you know people, youbecome the reliable person, and
so you know you feel like thepressure to perform and to
always be on.
So, anyways, I'm going to turnthis over to you guys and ask
(29:25):
you guys to give us an exampleof when you said yes, but really
what you?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
wanted to say is no, I think whenever I have felt
this, in times when I'm doingtoo much or doing things that I
don't want to do, I get likesometimes I end up actually sick
, like from doing too much andnot taking care.
You know you do too much and yousay yes, you say yes and next
thing you know you have like avirus or you have a cold.
(29:49):
I think that's really importantto remember because the way we
live our lives I mean we arestill a physical body also and
self-care also is important toyour physical health.
I think there were times incollege when I was just
(30:10):
constantly sick from, you know,an 18-hour workload semester
joining all the clubs.
You know I moved out of state,I went to a out of state college
, joined all the clubs, had, youknow, meetings every night for
this club and that club tomorrow, 18 hours, and I would just get
sick and I think my body wasreally trying to tell me to slow
(30:34):
down.
So listen, listen to your body.
I think and I'm trying, youknow I do better, I think, and I
don't get sick as much and alsotake vitamins.
But, yeah, listen to your body.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, so true, you mentioned that.
And I was just, as you all know, recently traveling back to
back and I came back and justcrashed.
And, and you all know, I wasrecently traveling back to back
and I came back and just crashed.
And you know the lesson thereis you do things because you
feel like you have to, you haveto, you have to, and then you
ultimately get sick and you arestill pushed back, you know, and
(31:11):
, like now, I have to take offwork and go to the doctor, and
so, you're right, take off workand go to the doctor, and, and
so, you're right, we workourselves to exhaustion and
sometimes to sickness, um, andand when we don't take the time
to break and make space.
Gabby, sarah, when was a timewhen you can you give us an
example of when you wanted tosay no but you ended up saying
(31:32):
yes, and how that showed up foryou?
Speaker 4 (31:44):
that showed up for you.
Yeah, sorry, gabby, go ahead.
No, go ahead, sir.
No, okay, I will go ahead.
I feel like when I I get reallyreactive and I immediately say
yes to things, and then and then, of course, I overextend myself
and then I end up just gettingreally angry, um at myself
mostly, but then it comes out in, you know, anger towards my
(32:04):
children, or impatient, or myhusband, to the people that's
closest to me, and that's when Ifeel like, okay, you know,
anxiety levels are up, um, butthat's when I know that it's
like enough, I've definitelyoverextended myself.
I was listening to a podcastrecently and there was a tip
(32:24):
that said okay, each time you'reasked a question, you're asked
to be involved, you're asked todo something, just pause and
don't give an answer right away.
Just say, okay, let me check mycalendar or let me think about
it.
Just don't commit to it rightaway, and then at least you
won't be reactive about it interms of just saying yes, and
then you get to think aboutwhether or not you really want
(32:45):
to do it or whether or not it'speople pleasing and you're you
know.
Then if you really still wantto do it, you can commit to it,
otherwise you can say no and youcan take your time with it.
So that has really helped mesort of keep things in check.
Otherwise it really feels awfulbecause you do want to help
(33:07):
people, I really want to helppeople but then you end up being
angry about it and then youdon't even enjoy helping them
anymore.
So it just has lots of thateffect.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
A hundred percent.
I used to be really bad aboutthis and now I think maybe I've
gone like completely.
Maybe it's with age, I don'tknow.
I tell people I'm in my fuckyou stage, like you know, or
fuck this stage, but I used toreally struggle with this and,
Gabby, you remember this fromthe early days I would say yes
to everything and I wanted to becollaborative and I wanted to
show up for people and I wantedto do all of those things.
(33:39):
And now you know, and then Ilearned over time that you know,
I was just prioritizing otherpeople's goals, not our own as
an organization.
You know, if we're talkingabout work as an organization,
and then just yeah.
Then, once the flip switch,though, and really understanding
that you know, if you're atwork, your mission, your work,
(33:59):
your priorities come first, andit's OK to say no.
And then also personally, youknow, just anyways, just
prioritize yourself, I can't sayit enough and once that flip
does switch you don't want tobecome like me, because maybe
I'm too much too, but just finda balance right where where you
(34:20):
give yourself the permission tosay no, Gabby, anything you
wanted to add?
Or should we move on to thenext question?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
No, I resonate with what both of you said.
I think I have that like theyou know where it's all just
kind of bottled inside untilit's there's just no space for
it to go but out, kind ofmoments.
I did just want to sharesomething that some of the
members mentioned as one oftheir little hacks too is like
not only taking a pause beforeanswering, but you know, setting
(34:49):
it if it's for work relatedreasons, setting up a fake admin
that is the one to say no foryou, so you can kind of release
that pressure of like oh it'snot me saying no, it's the admin
or scheduler, or if it's acalendar system.
So again, it gives you thatkind of like break in between.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Listen, we're all about leapfrogging things here
and whatever we need to do tohelp members get there.
I love that, um, so how weclose that session.
I think was very powerful too,and we hope that anyone
listening to this conversationalso takes the time to do this
exercise and then also to finishtoday with one boundary be you
(35:45):
know a way in which you're goingto prioritize rest, or it could
be a way in which you're goingto disrupt, or and you know the
need to be perfect all the time,and yeah.
So I want to ask you guys whatis one thing you can commit to
doing, even though it's hard?
Maybe you're not going to beconsistent over time, but what
is one thing that you can committo doing this week?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I think, something I struggled with and I kind of
touched on it earlier.
I, you know, youngest of five,all my siblings live around me.
I have a wonderful group offriends and they love, I mean,
and I do too we love to createplans in our free time and hang
out and, you know, go out to eatand whatever it is.
(36:31):
So I think for me it's likeeven saying no sometimes to the
fun stuff, because maybe I justneed to recharge and not do
anything.
Maybe I just need to rechargeand not do anything.
I think sometimes we can, youknow, we think that doing
(36:52):
something fun is recharging,which I think it totally can be
in some cases.
But for me, I think saying noto even to fun stuff will help
me relax and recharge.
I think that also is a peoplepleasing thing and the fear of
missing out and well, they'regoing to have so much fun, and
what if they talk aboutsomething and then I don't know
what they're talking about nexttime and it really it's totally
(37:15):
okay.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Oof, we didn't talk about that fear of missing out,
but that's big and you know it'sa problem.
That could be a whole newpodcast.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, I think it goes hand in hand with perfectionism
.
You know, I'm not going to getthe perfect story, I'm not going
to get the perfect time andwith my people I love and it's
going to be okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Gabby, sarah, I think mine would be a little bit the
opposite of you, jay, in termsof I'm going to say yes to help
At least one thing this week,that's.
I know I count on past the likedelegating, fear of delegating
stage on that end.
But personally I thinksometimes I still struggle with
(38:08):
like asking or letting.
I think it's really more ofthat letting people help with
something.
So I'm going to commit toasking and saying yes to help
with one thing personally thisweek and saying yes to help with
one thing personally this week.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
Sarah, I'm going to time block and stick to it,
because that has really helpedme.
Actually I've tried it the pasttwo days and it has really
helped me be more present withmy children in the summer.
So I have blocked time for workand when that's done then I'll
just close my computer and Iwon't feel guilty or I'll try
(38:48):
not to feel guilty about notdoing more and then just be
present and enjoy my time withthe kids and spend time with
them.
So that's what I'm committingto.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Well, thank you all.
This was a great session.
I hope that you know people wholisten to this get something
out of it.
Again, you can go to our shownotes at wwwvestorco forward
slash podcast.
Click on the latest episode andyou'll see a bunch of resources
.
Members showed books orhighlighted books that they're
(39:22):
reading that are helping themwith perfectionism, with resting
, prioritizing rest.
We're also going to includesome of the articles that the
team has written on this topicand several other resources, so
be sure to check those out.
And if you're looking for asupport system maybe you don't
have it please consider joiningVEST or any other peer group
(39:44):
that you feel like you can comeand show up as your authentic
self, because it's not a luxuryright Like we tend to think,
that investing in ourselves orinvesting in joining a group
like this is like a luxury orsomething.
It's really not.
Particularly in these times,there's a lot of uncertainty in
our world and having a supportsystem is so critical, so
(40:08):
consider joining VAST or anyother group.
You can learn more about ourpeer community and how it works
by again going to our website,wwwvastrco.
Burnout is at an all-time high.
According to McKinsey and LeanIn's Women in the Workplace
report, 43% of women leaders saythey feel burned out, compared
to just 31% of men at the samelevel.
The constant need to achieveperfectionism is a key
contributor to this.
Research from the University ofBritish Columbia shows that
(00:20):
perfectionism is strongly linkedto anxiety, depression and
chronic stress.
People-pleasing is anothermajor contributor.
Studies show women are morelikely to engage in
people-pleasing behaviors, oftenout of fear of being seen as
difficult or unlikable.
Over time, this erodesboundaries and leads to
emotional and physicalexhaustion.
(00:42):
This is why today we're talkingabout how rest is not a luxury,
but rather a necessary skill wemust add to our toolbox.
In fact, the AmericanPsychological Association
reports that chronic stress andlack of rest reduces
productivity, decision-makingability and innovation all
traits that are essential to howwe're showing up at work.
(01:04):
And innovation all traits thatare essential to how we're
showing up at work.
Hey everyone, I'm Erika Lucas,founder of Vest and your host
for today's episode.
Today, our team is recapping apowerful session we recently
held with Vest members, where weexplore how perfectionism and
people-pleasing show up in ourlives and our careers and how
this often leads to burnout.
(01:24):
More importantly, we discusswhat it means to begin resisting
these patterns.
For our team's full bios, theself-awareness exercise and
other show notes go towwwvestherco forward slash
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with a friend and don't
forget to leave us a review.
(01:45):
Where do you feel pressure toperform, or people, please?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I think I'll start with this one.
For me it's in a lot of places.
I feel like I'm a recoveringpeople pleaser, still working on
that every day, trying to makesure that I also take care of
myself and not just everyoneelse.
And so the idea of like thesuper mom, the super woman,
(02:12):
feels so strongly in me and solike I'm proud of all the things
that I do.
But also it's the idea of Idon't know like having having to
be perfect in a lot ofdifferent places and if you
misstep, you know, or put toomuch effort in one box, are you,
(02:33):
you know, draining yourself inanother box?
And so I think a lot of thetimes it's like okay, having
those moments to really check inand make sure that I'm also
filling that box in myself, andlike filling my cup.
That messaging I think is superimportant, is feeling my own
cup before I am able to pourinto others, right.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
So yeah, I mean, I think about that.
I always think I'm also arecovering people, pleaser.
Hello, I'm Jay.
I think about that airplanevisual and what they tell you,
with moms like you have to putthe mask on yourself before you
put it on your kid or whoeveryou're taking care of, and
(03:18):
that's just a simple and goodreminder for me, too, for how to
live, reminder for me, too, touh, for how to live, um, because
it shows up for me too, um, onthe daily and sometimes it's
funny, that guilt that you feelwith you know, trying to be
perfect people pleasing thosearound to those around you.
It can, it can be debilitating,and then you're like frozen and
(03:41):
then, and then it builds becauseyou're kind of frozen and, um,
you're not getting you know whatyou think you need to get done,
and it's like this pilingmountain of perfectionism that,
at the end of the day, is isjust mostly, most of the time,
in our own heads, um, and weexpect more from ourselves than
(04:01):
than most people do, um, so Ialways like to remember that the
airplane, you know putting themask on before you put it on on
others and um, something elsethat helps me is I actually was,
you know, went to therapy andtalked about this topic a lot,
um, and I would always tell mytherapist like I should, you
know, I think I should, should,should, and she told me, well,
(04:25):
or you could, you know, it's notever really should, it's could
you.
You know, and I think that helpsme reframe things in my brain
too it's I could do this or Icould do this, and maybe this
option makes me feel a littlebetter and it's not actually
people pleasing Like this is anoption I want to do.
So taking the should out of myvocabulary really helps me as
(04:47):
well.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I love that, jay.
I think we're all benefitingfrom your therapy sessions when
you share the takeaway.
So, yeah, it's just just sotrue, right, and Gabby, I think
you said it too like this ideaof the supermom or the super
worker or the super, whateverit's pressures that sometimes
(05:09):
are external, right, theexpectation, like who defined
what a supermom looks like?
And does that idea of thesupermom even exist and is it
realistic and is it sustainable?
But sometimes and we know allof this, right, we've read about
it, we know it.
But sometimes and we know allof this, right, we've read about
it, we know it, but it's reallyhard to process it because
sometimes we just internalize itwithout even realizing it.
(05:31):
So I love those exercises, jay,that you talked about.
And so to do an accountabilitycheck on us too what does rest
look like for you guys right now?
And let's add one more whatgets in the way of it?
Speaker 4 (05:49):
I'll start with this one.
This is, I think one of themembers yesterday mentioned that
rest can look very different indifferent seasons in life, and
I think that really resonateswith me, because my rest with
two young children might notlook the same as others.
To be honest, I think restcould look like one hour of just
(06:14):
not even physically resting,but getting to choose what I do
myself and not having to dowhat's needed or what others
want me to do for them.
So that's what rest looks likefor me in this season right now,
and it might not be the samefor everyone else, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I totally get that, sarah.
Yeah, two kiddos, one thatstill comes into my bed every
morning at three in the morning.
So, yeah, rest is a superimportant um, yeah.
However, however, it looks likeRight, um, I think for me it's,
um, finishing my coffee, beingable to take the time to finish
(06:58):
my coffee in the morning beforeit gets cold, not having to
reheat it or anything.
And then also, sometimes, youknow I'm I fall into the
category of sometimes likefeeling like I need to either
schedule out my whole day or dosomething at all times, right,
so taking that moment to reallyrest is is important and I need
(07:20):
to remind myself of that a lot.
And so sometimes, you know, Imay set my alarm with, like the,
you know, the 6am, the 610am,615am, make sure I'm up by a
certain time.
And then I've learned that,like, okay, I'm cutting into my
own rest time and so if maybe Idon't wake up at you know, 530
or six o'clock in the morning,but I received that extra bit of
(07:44):
rest, um, and you know I'll,I'll find a way to fill out that
time afterwards, but, you know,not pushing myself when I know
my body actually needs theactual rest as well.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I think one of the members yesterday talked about,
um, what getting what gets inthe way of her rest is her
self-inflicted wound of thepressure of her schedule, and
you know she needs to be at workat this time and then she needs
to work out here, so she needsto, you know, cook herself these
(08:20):
foods, these foods, and thenit's like then there's no time
to rest because you're just kindof ticking off all your boxes
for the day instead of enjoyingit and being in the moment,
which I think we can all relateto.
Kind of goes back to what I wassaying about the shoulds versus
the coulds.
And, yeah, I think trying toavoid that self-inflicted wound
(08:44):
is hard, uh.
But you know, carving out timespecifically, even if you need
to add it into your schedule, isimportant, um, so for me it
looks like, you know, walks inthe evenings, when it's when
it's a little bit cooler out, um, uh, just to take that time to
really reset and focus and andknow that I did a good job
(09:05):
during the day and whatever Idid, I did and what I didn't get
done, it can wait untiltomorrow.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
A hundred percent.
And again it ties it all backto like, what are the
expectations, you know, like arethey our own self inflicted
wounds and expectations, or arethey societal expectations,
conflicted ones and expectations, or are they societal
expectations?
So, yeah, all very much tied up.
And, gabby and Sarah, I have tosay I think about you all the
time, you both all the time withlittle kids, because, you know,
(09:34):
as I'm like, I get up reallyearly and I get to start my work
at six or seven.
You know, and I think often of,like you know, when I had
little kids, you know I had todrop them off and pick them up
and like it was just, it waschaotic, you know, because of
everything that you have to fitin, and so I I just appreciate
(09:58):
you both so much.
And you know, it also makes mequestion a lot of like the silly
rules we have at work, right,you know it also makes me
question a lot of like the sillyrules we have at work, right,
like we start meetings at 8 am.
Well, people, parents orcaregivers are still dropping
off their kids.
They're, you know, they didn'tget to drink their coffee or
maybe they're having to reheatit, and who made up the rules
that we have to start work ateight, you know, as long as work
(10:20):
gets done, like anyway.
So you know we could do also,since this is obviously a show
for women professionals who arebuilding more inclusive
workspaces, it's also, you know,our.
One thing we could do inaddition to taking care of
ourselves is just like thinkabout the rules that we impose
(10:40):
at work that may not be verysuitable to working moms,
working parents, caregivers.
Who made up those rules anyway?
And are they still, you know,supporting the workplace that we
see today?
Anyway, so really appreciateyou both and we do what we can
(11:01):
to support you, but I know it'sstill chaotic and hard to be a
parent with small kiddos.
What are you afraid of, or whatare you afraid will happen?
What are you afraid will happenIf you stop doing so much?
What is that fear?
What is that anxiety?
What do you think it's going tohappen?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think, members, really this is a common theme in
our working session and theidea of if I don't get it done,
who will Got brought up a lotwhich definitely resonates with
me.
It's that pressure right To bethe super whatever it is to be
(11:46):
the super mom, super woman,super worker.
Right to be the super, whateverit is to be the super mom,
superwoman, super worker, um,and sometimes it is like there
there is more um, uh,expectations just based on you
know where you are in yourcareer level.
You have differentresponsibilities, right, um, and
and sometimes it can be a thingof accountability of whoever is
on the other end.
(12:07):
Are they being accountable andbeing held accountable for their
responsibilities and how dothose two things work together?
But I think sometimes it goesback to that internal Is it an
internal pressure versus anexternal pressure?
And, really reflecting onwhatever is kind of coming up,
(12:29):
is this something that could behandled with, maybe better
systems, processes,communication, or is this
something that needs to be dealtwith internally of?
I don't trust that this willget done, so I just need to do
it, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Or am I communicating ?
Yes, I was watching or I waslistening to a podcast recently
that was saying that the numberone reason for divorce is not
money and it's not cheating,it's lack of communication of
expectations with your partner.
And I think that can be appliedto work right.
If we don't clearly communicatewhat our expectations are.
(13:10):
And I'm not just talking.
You know team lead and you knowpeople underneath.
I'm talking about even.
You know, if you're workingunderneath a leader and you're
not communicating, that youdon't feel supported, that you
don't have the right tools to doyour job, that you didn't get
clear instructions to perform,so, anyways, I just think I
(13:34):
remember the pattern as well ofwomen communicating that.
But then also communication wasa big part of that discussion,
like making sure that we'recommunicating, asking for help.
You know from our supportsystem whether that's our spouse
, like if it's at home, ifthat's our spouses, if that's,
you know, whatever supportsystem we have, being vulnerable
(13:55):
enough to ask for help, beingvulnerable enough to let others
help, and it doesn't.
The job doesn't have to getdone exactly how we would do it.
I say this all the time, likewhen Chris helps me and he helps
me a lot, but when he helps medo something and it's not to my
standards, I'm like just let itgo.
He's helping you know, itdoesn't have to be exactly how
(14:15):
you do it.
So, anyways, great conversation.
Anything you want to add, sarahJay?
Speaker 4 (14:21):
I think that's the key though letting people help
and being able to let go of that, some of that control, because
I really struggle with that.
I would rather spend more timedoing something than asking
someone else's help andexplaining how it should be done
and you know, sort ofsupervising or whatnot, and then
(14:44):
I get really upset when it'snot done the right way.
So I don't know, at least forme, a lot of of it is about
control, and that's clearlysomething that I need to work um
, work on um, so that I can justlet go and give more control to
others.
It's not that they don't wantto help, it's that I'm not
letting them help, um, but thatties in, I think, identity as
(15:09):
well, where I'm like the eldestdaughter I love, like my
identity is so much tied to,like, caregiving and helping and
taking care of things forothers.
So, yeah, it's, it's a lotbigger, a lot more than than
just, yeah, getting things donemyself.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
But A hundred percent and we didn't really get to
dive into.
You know, obviously most of ourbest sessions are never long
enough right To go into um intodetails.
But, yeah, there's, there's.
You know how we were raised.
Um, uh, you know immigrant.
Uh, you know we, we all workwith immigrant founders.
Um, uh, you know, uh, even, youknow women professionals who
(15:50):
are immigrants, and there's thisadditional sense of like you
have to work as hard as you can.
I mean, we even have a sayingyou know you rest, you know when
you're dead.
So we don't prioritize rest andit's part of our pride, as part
of our culture, you know, to beknown as this hard worker.
So, anyways, lots of trauma,lots of things that can
(16:11):
influence some of theexpectations that you
self-impose.
Being the first, the oldestdaughter, I mean, oh, my gosh,
that's so true across the board.
So what would you?
I think this was a veryinteresting question because I
think that, as um highperforming women, again, we take
(16:34):
on a lot of the responsibilityand, uh, we are very hard with
ourselves.
Um, right, but if we were givenadvice to other people, we tend
to be kind and understandingand gentle, but never with
ourselves.
So the question, and I want youto answer this, not like what
(16:55):
other members might have said orother patterns, but just for
you.
If you were given advice to afriend based on what you've
shared, that you areexperiencing and feeling, and
what's prohibiting you fromresting, if you were going to
give advice to a friend, whatwould you say to them If they
were in your shoes?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
I'm happy to go answer this one.
Um, first, I would tell themthat they aren't alone in that
feeling that you know.
I think that if you ask anyone,they can relate to that feeling
, especially women, especiallyworking women, especially
working moms, and and um, it's,I think it's a very common
(17:38):
feeling.
Um, so, first, you're not alone.
Um, I think the second thing Iwould tell them is everything is
not going to fall apart if youhelp yourself.
Um, and then I would tell themis everything is not going to
fall apart if you help yourself.
And then I would ask them maybewhere can you ask for help?
Because I know that that's agood question, because you know
(17:58):
you're like ask for help, askfor help, and it's they're like
well, I have to do these thingsor everything's going to fall
apart.
And so I think a good questionto to encourage people and to
ask yourself is where can I askfor help?
You know, start with what I'mcomfortable with delegating off,
and I think that's a good startto being more comfortable with
(18:20):
asking for help.
Comfortable.
Then you start, you know,moving along and you realize
that the things that you wereuncomfortable about asking for
help, you maybe become morecomfortable.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I love that Jay.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, that was great, and I feel like all your little
nuggets.
I'm like let me write this downand where can I ask for help?
What can I change from shouldto?
Could I appreciate your inputon that?
Yeah, I think I would.
Especially the first one Ithink is super important is
you're not alone in this.
(19:00):
Like who can you reach out towhen you are feeling down?
Because I think sometimes it isthat like, let me just power
through, let me just get throughit, you know, and so as a if
our my close friend, I would saylike one, you can reach out to
me anytime you feel this way.
But also, like who else can youreach out to Right?
(19:22):
Like, when you're in those downmoments, who's in your speed
dial of?
Like, um, you know closefriends that will come to your
aid immediately.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And I love that you said, jay, because it's so true.
We often say you know, ask forhelp.
But hell, if you're a singlemom or you don't have a support
system, who the hell do you askfor help?
So I think that, but by goingdeep and like, well, do you have
friends, aunties, you know?
Maybe it's time to join anetwork like best of peers.
(19:55):
Right, it doesn't have to befamily.
We know that there's also womenout there that don't have a
support system and maybe theydon't, they're not close to
their family.
So, anyways, just loved all thethree tips that you shared.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
I was also going to say just how much, how
meaningful it can be to join anetwork like this, because
you're you know how you oftenfeel by attending these sessions
, that so many other people arefeeling in a similar way.
So not only they validate howyou're feeling, but you can
really talk to one another andsupport one another, which I
(20:34):
find really wonderful and justvalidating and nourishing.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So, if yeah, not feeling inadequate, right?
I think you said it too, jay,at the beginning.
It's like so often weinternalize and we isolate
ourselves because we think we'rethe only ones that can't keep
up with being the super mom orcan keep up with being the super
worker, and the reality is mostof us are dealing with the same
shit, regardless of industry,regardless of levels in our
(21:04):
companies.
So the more we normalizetalking about these experiences
and how they show up for us insimilar ways or in different
ways, I think it's veryimportant.
How does perfectionism orpeople-pleasing show up in your
work or relationships?
And we've already covered thisa little bit, but give me an
example, like if you can thinkof an example where this showed
(21:29):
up for you Anyone?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, I think that you know, even when it comes to
family and I'm the youngest offive I you all, you all here
know I'm crazy about my familyand the people around me, sister
, or your mom, or the peoplethat you know you need to say
(21:58):
yes to all the time.
If they want to go to lunch, ifthey want to and you are just
tired, you can say no and youcan tell them.
You know, I love you, I justneed to rest.
And I feel that, sarah, you'retalking about, you know, being
the oldest and the pressures andthe perfectionism that comes
(22:19):
with being the oldest.
I think for being the youngest,it's like I feel like I was
adored so much that I need toalways show that back.
And you know, if my sistercalls, I need to pick up.
If my mom calls, I need to pickup.
If my brother wants to go tolunch, I need to go to lunch
calls, I need to pick up.
If my brother wants to go tolunch, I need to go to lunch.
(22:40):
And it's like you know, maybe Ijust need to take a nap or
maybe I just, you know, need tohave an hour, like you said,
sarah, of not doing anything andnot having anyone, you know,
talking to me and just be freefor an hour.
So for me it's even it's funny,but for me it's even uh, it's
funny, but for me it's even mysupport system.
You know, sometimes I need toset boundaries, even with my
(23:02):
support system, um, and I thinkthat's allowed and you can do
that.
Anyone else?
Speaker 4 (23:10):
For me, it shows up at work in a way where I feel
like I have to constantlyperform perfectly and if I don't
that, I can't that I failed andall of this.
But I am so fortunate to workwith all of you because you're
always so open and transparentand graceful, and so this is a
very healing.
I don't know support networkthat I have through work, but
(23:36):
that is definitely like thispersistent voice to say are you
not doing enough, why are youdoing this wrong or why are you
not, you know, performing more?
Whatever it is, there's alwaysthat constant voice, but it is.
It is absolutely so.
I'm so grateful to have to havethe team that is always so
supportive and it sort of justpushes that voice away.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I'm grateful to have you.
Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely.
And, like I said earlier, inwhat way does it not show up?
Definitely at work or at home.
I definitely understand that,jay, where it's like can't say
no, you can't say no Been tryingto work on that too.
And then at work, I think it'slike that need to constantly be
(24:22):
available.
I think that's something thathas shown up and again, I've
tried to work towards, andsometimes I have to catch myself
and like, no, it's 4.59 on aFriday.
You know, I don't need toanswer this email right now.
And one thing that I've learnedthat I don't use often enough
is just like schedule send.
So that way, one, it doesn'tget lost in my inbox, but two,
(24:42):
it's like, okay, I kind of setthat boundary of like I won't
respond after a certain time orI'm not available to just
whoever after a certain time.
But yeah, that's littleinstances where I know it's
definitely shown up for me, butyeah, that's little instances
where I know it's definitelyshown up for me.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I think that working with Stitch Crew, which
is, you know, our other pillarorganization, which is a
nonprofit that supportsentrepreneurs, and then,
obviously, launching both StitchCrew and Vest, which is an
entity on its own and a businesson its own, and I think that my
mindset shifted tremendouslyfrom being in corporate America
(25:21):
or in traditional jobs versusworking as an entrepreneur, and
I used to.
You know, like, I mean thatit's hard to let go Right,
because at the beginning, GabbyI don't know if you remember,
but with Stitch Grow Invest, wetried to be perfect but it
wasn't and it was okay, right,like if we made mistakes, like
(25:42):
the world didn't fall, you know,like, okay.
So we, you know, made a mistakeon a blog post that we did, or
we, I don't know.
You know the website.
I mean, oh my gosh, how manyversions of the website have
we've improved over time, and so, anyways, I do think that being
an entrepreneur, having smallerteams, is so helpful and it's
(26:03):
definitely a privilege becauseyou can iterate so fast and you
can learn from mistakes and youactually embrace being scrappy
and and fast, and you know thatbecause of that, you're going to
likely make mistakes and it'sokay.
But in traditional work settingsthat's not always the case,
right, especially if they'revery competitive work
(26:25):
environments or if you don'thave a culture that embraces
making mistakes or if you haveinternal traumas that also show
up in, like you say, sarah.
You know the constant need of.
I'm not saying that you havetrauma, sarah, I'm just saying
that sometimes you know, we dointernalize, I do, I certainly
do have trauma.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
We all do Another recovering people pleaser so
here we are.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I think all of us are which leads to the next
question perfectly.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Before we go into that too, though, I think it's
important to note that you knowconversations like these and
conversations that we have atVest you made it there or as
even CEOs, like oh, you see theCEO, and now they're, they're
killing it and you know theyhave everything together, but in
(27:27):
reality, like they're stillmessing up too, or that all the
steps that it took to get there.
Or as founders, like all thedifferent versions of the
website, the logo, this, that,the other.
So I think it's important tohave like these conversations
too, because people areconstantly changing and evolving
, and, whether it's theirbusiness, through, you know,
just personal life.
(27:48):
It's important to know that,like this isn't anyone's final
version, right, we're all justconstantly trying to just grow.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah Well, first of all, perfection is a myth, right
, there's just, and we know this, like we know this, but I guess
it's just hard to again whenyou internalize things.
But what I often tell people isperfection and growth can't
coexist, right, because ifyou're perfect, then you don't
need to grow, and how boringwould that be.
So it's just about growing andlearning and improving over time
(28:21):
and being curious about how wecan continue to improve.
But it's not from a judgmentalit doesn't need to come from a
judgmental place, but rather,you know, a learning mindset.
So thank you for adding that.
So, thank you for adding that.
(28:43):
So you know, you all talked alittle bit about, like you know,
how hard sometimes being peoplepleasers, how hard it is to say
no.
So the next question, one thatwe asked members to, is when
have you felt the cost of doingtoo much or saying yes when, in
reality, what you wanted to saywas no, to say was no, and I
know that a lot of membersimmediately said oh my gosh,
like you know the pressure tosay yes because you feel bad,
jay, because you feel like youhave to be available.
(29:04):
Gabby, you know, sometimesyou're so good at your job that
you are, you know people, youbecome the reliable person, and
so you know you feel like thepressure to perform and to
always be on.
So, anyways, I'm going to turnthis over to you guys and ask
(29:25):
you guys to give us an exampleof when you said yes, but really
what you?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
wanted to say is no, I think whenever I have felt
this, in times when I'm doingtoo much or doing things that I
don't want to do, I get likesometimes I end up actually sick
, like from doing too much andnot taking care.
You know you do too much and yousay yes, you say yes and next
thing you know you have like avirus or you have a cold.
(29:49):
I think that's really importantto remember because the way we
live our lives I mean we arestill a physical body also and
self-care also is important toyour physical health.
I think there were times incollege when I was just
(30:10):
constantly sick from, you know,an 18-hour workload semester
joining all the clubs.
You know I moved out of state,I went to a out of state college
, joined all the clubs, had, youknow, meetings every night for
this club and that club tomorrow, 18 hours, and I would just get
sick and I think my body wasreally trying to tell me to slow
(30:34):
down.
So listen, listen to your body.
I think and I'm trying, youknow I do better, I think, and I
don't get sick as much and alsotake vitamins.
But, yeah, listen to your body.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, so true, you mentioned that.
And I was just, as you all know, recently traveling back to
back and I came back and justcrashed.
And, and you all know, I wasrecently traveling back to back
and I came back and just crashed.
And you know the lesson thereis you do things because you
feel like you have to, you haveto, you have to, and then you
ultimately get sick and you arestill pushed back, you know, and
(31:11):
, like now, I have to take offwork and go to the doctor, and
so, you're right, take off workand go to the doctor, and, and
so, you're right, we workourselves to exhaustion and
sometimes to sickness, um, andand when we don't take the time
to break and make space.
Gabby, sarah, when was a timewhen you can you give us an
example of when you wanted tosay no but you ended up saying
(31:32):
yes, and how that showed up foryou?
Speaker 4 (31:44):
that showed up for you.
Yeah, sorry, gabby, go ahead.
No, go ahead, sir.
No, okay, I will go ahead.
I feel like when I I get reallyreactive and I immediately say
yes to things, and then and then, of course, I overextend myself
and then I end up just gettingreally angry, um at myself
mostly, but then it comes out in, you know, anger towards my
(32:04):
children, or impatient, or myhusband, to the people that's
closest to me, and that's when Ifeel like, okay, you know,
anxiety levels are up, um, butthat's when I know that it's
like enough, I've definitelyoverextended myself.
I was listening to a podcastrecently and there was a tip
(32:24):
that said okay, each time you'reasked a question, you're asked
to be involved, you're asked todo something, just pause and
don't give an answer right away.
Just say, okay, let me check mycalendar or let me think about
it.
Just don't commit to it rightaway, and then at least you
won't be reactive about it interms of just saying yes, and
then you get to think aboutwhether or not you really want
(32:45):
to do it or whether or not it'speople pleasing and you're you
know.
Then if you really still wantto do it, you can commit to it,
otherwise you can say no and youcan take your time with it.
So that has really helped mesort of keep things in check.
Otherwise it really feels awfulbecause you do want to help
(33:07):
people, I really want to helppeople but then you end up being
angry about it and then youdon't even enjoy helping them
anymore.
So it just has lots of thateffect.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
A hundred percent.
I used to be really bad aboutthis and now I think maybe I've
gone like completely.
Maybe it's with age, I don'tknow.
I tell people I'm in my fuckyou stage, like you know, or
fuck this stage, but I used toreally struggle with this and,
Gabby, you remember this fromthe early days I would say yes
to everything and I wanted to becollaborative and I wanted to
show up for people and I wantedto do all of those things.
(33:39):
And now you know, and then Ilearned over time that you know,
I was just prioritizing otherpeople's goals, not our own as
an organization.
You know, if we're talkingabout work as an organization,
and then just yeah.
Then, once the flip switch,though, and really understanding
that you know, if you're atwork, your mission, your work,
(33:59):
your priorities come first, andit's OK to say no.
And then also personally, youknow, just anyways, just
prioritize yourself, I can't sayit enough and once that flip
does switch you don't want tobecome like me, because maybe
I'm too much too, but just finda balance right where where you
(34:20):
give yourself the permission tosay no, Gabby, anything you
wanted to add?
Or should we move on to thenext question?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
No, I resonate with what both of you said.
I think I have that like theyou know where it's all just
kind of bottled inside untilit's there's just no space for
it to go but out, kind ofmoments.
I did just want to sharesomething that some of the
members mentioned as one oftheir little hacks too is like
not only taking a pause beforeanswering, but you know, setting
(34:49):
it if it's for work relatedreasons, setting up a fake admin
that is the one to say no foryou, so you can kind of release
that pressure of like oh it'snot me saying no, it's the admin
or scheduler, or if it's acalendar system.
So again, it gives you thatkind of like break in between.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Listen, we're all about leapfrogging things here
and whatever we need to do tohelp members get there.
I love that, um, so how weclose that session.
I think was very powerful too,and we hope that anyone
listening to this conversationalso takes the time to do this
exercise and then also to finishtoday with one boundary be you
(35:45):
know a way in which you're goingto prioritize rest, or it could
be a way in which you're goingto disrupt, or and you know the
need to be perfect all the time,and yeah.
So I want to ask you guys whatis one thing you can commit to
doing, even though it's hard?
Maybe you're not going to beconsistent over time, but what
is one thing that you can committo doing this week?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I think, something I struggled with and I kind of
touched on it earlier.
I, you know, youngest of five,all my siblings live around me.
I have a wonderful group offriends and they love, I mean,
and I do too we love to createplans in our free time and hang
out and, you know, go out to eatand whatever it is.
(36:31):
So I think for me it's likeeven saying no sometimes to the
fun stuff, because maybe I justneed to recharge and not do
anything.
Maybe I just need to rechargeand not do anything.
I think sometimes we can, youknow, we think that doing
(36:52):
something fun is recharging,which I think it totally can be
in some cases.
But for me, I think saying noto even to fun stuff will help
me relax and recharge.
I think that also is a peoplepleasing thing and the fear of
missing out and well, they'regoing to have so much fun, and
what if they talk aboutsomething and then I don't know
what they're talking about nexttime and it really it's totally
(37:15):
okay.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Oof, we didn't talk about that fear of missing out,
but that's big and you know it'sa problem.
That could be a whole newpodcast.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, I think it goes hand in hand with perfectionism
.
You know, I'm not going to getthe perfect story, I'm not going
to get the perfect time andwith my people I love and it's
going to be okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Gabby, sarah, I think mine would be a little bit the
opposite of you, jay, in termsof I'm going to say yes to help
At least one thing this week,that's.
I know I count on past the likedelegating, fear of delegating
stage on that end.
But personally I thinksometimes I still struggle with
(38:08):
like asking or letting.
I think it's really more ofthat letting people help with
something.
So I'm going to commit toasking and saying yes to help
with one thing personally thisweek and saying yes to help with
one thing personally this week.
Speaker 4 (38:26):
Sarah, I'm going to time block and stick to it,
because that has really helpedme.
Actually I've tried it the pasttwo days and it has really
helped me be more present withmy children in the summer.
So I have blocked time for workand when that's done then I'll
just close my computer and Iwon't feel guilty or I'll try
(38:48):
not to feel guilty about notdoing more and then just be
present and enjoy my time withthe kids and spend time with
them.
So that's what I'm committingto.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Well, thank you all.
This was a great session.
I hope that you know people wholisten to this get something
out of it.
Again, you can go to our shownotes at wwwvestorco forward
slash podcast.
Click on the latest episode andyou'll see a bunch of resources
.
Members showed books orhighlighted books that they're
(39:22):
reading that are helping themwith perfectionism, with resting
, prioritizing rest.
We're also going to includesome of the articles that the
team has written on this topicand several other resources, so
be sure to check those out.
And if you're looking for asupport system maybe you don't
have it please consider joiningVEST or any other peer group
(39:44):
that you feel like you can comeand show up as your authentic
self, because it's not a luxuryright Like we tend to think,
that investing in ourselves orinvesting in joining a group
like this is like a luxury orsomething.
It's really not.
Particularly in these times,there's a lot of uncertainty in
our world and having a supportsystem is so critical, so
(40:08):
consider joining VAST or anyother group.
You can learn more about ourpeer community and how it works
by again going to our website,wwwvastrco.
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