January 24, 2024 • 54 mins
More and more women are considering switching roles or leaving the labor force in general as a result of burnout. This burnout is in large part due to caregiving responsibilities. In fact, caregiving responsibilities are the number two reason (behind retirement), that people, mostly women, leave the labor force. This negatively impacts our nation’s workforce availability as well as women’s lifetime earnings. Making this not a women’s issue, but an economic one.
So what do we do about it?
In this episode we talk with Adriene Prentice and Claudia Naim-Burt, founders of Keep Company, a ventured-backed company helping employers reduce burnout and turnover of employees with caregiving responsibilities. Join us as we talk about ways to identify and mitigate burnout, as well as how we can maintain productivity levels without driving ourselves and employees to feel depleted.
Keep Company is now part of VEST Her Ventures portfolio.
About Adrienne Prentice
Adrienne Prentice is the co-founder and CEO of Keep Company, a group learning platform that helps employers care for, and keep, the parents and caregivers on their teams. After a successful career as a technology attorney practicing at top law firms, including Cooley and Pillsbury, Adrienne was recruited to build a global team of attorneys at Hewlett Packard Enterprise (HPE). While at HPE, Adrienne experienced firsthand the unique challenges of being a working parent and the power of coaching. She then shifted her career to talent management at Hogan Lovells and later became a leadership coach specifically for working parents and caregivers. After supporting countless clients battling loneliness and self-sacrifice, Adrienne leveraged her experience as a mother, coach and community builder as well as her background in talent management to build a solution that not only supports parents & caregivers, but positively influences the systems they live in. Adrienne holds a BS from Cornell University’s School of Industrial & Labor Relations and a JD from American University, Washington College of Law. While not working, she devours non-fiction and keeps company with her husband, two children and silver lab in Bethesda, Maryland.
About Claudia Naim-Burt
Claudia Naím-Burt is the co-founder and COO of Keep Company, a group learning platform that helps employers care for, and keep, the parents and caregivers on their teams. Previously, Claudia was a member of the leadership team at Framebridge, a direct-to-consumer custom framing company, where she led Brand and Communications. As the 10th employee to join the company, she helped scale the business to over 400 employees, retail locations and past $82M in venture funding. After Framebridge, Claudia served as an entrepreneur in residence at NEA, and as a strategic advisor to several high-growth businesses, including Poppy Flowers. Claudia has held marketing and communications roles at American Express and Edelman Public Relations. She holds an MBA from NYU Stern School of Business and a BA with honors from Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service. Originally from Caracas, Venezuela, Claudia lives in Washington D.C. with her husband and two boys.
Show Notes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor podcast, where we
(00:23):
explore the investable barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
When we think about what drives sustainability, or a
lack thereof, that leads toburnout.
What we hear from parents andcaregivers I think this is
particularly true for women,given that caregiving
disproportionately lands onwomen's shoulders for lots of
reasons we can talk about isthat I'm taking care of work and
(01:00):
I'm taking care of my family,but I'm not taking care of
myself.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Back to the stats.
You gave it the 77% versus the22%.
So 77% of high potential menhad support network.
It reminded me when I waspracticing attorney back in the
day.
Everybody was in the office andeveryone would talk on
speakerphone and it was soannoying.
But it was at 6.15 to 6.30.
I had my door open.
(01:26):
I was the only woman on theentire floor and I would hear
almost every man around me calltheir wife and ask what's for
dinner.
And I'm sitting there and I'mlike who am I going to?
Oh, oh, it's me.
Oh, I'm the one I have tocontinue to do the job that
they're doing and I have to makethe dinner.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
More and more women are considering switching roles
or leaving the labor force ingeneral as a result of burnout.
This burnout is, in large part,due to caregiving
responsibilities.
In fact, caregivingresponsibilities are the number
two reason only behindretirement that people mostly
women leave the workplace.
This negatively impacts ournation's workforce availability
(02:09):
as well as women's lifetimeearnings, making this not a
women's issue but an economicissue.
In this episode, we talked toAdrian Prentice and Claudia name
Bert, founders of Keep Company,a venture-backed company
helping employers reduce burnoutand turnover of employees with
caregiving responsibilities.
Join us as we talk aboutidentifying and mitigating
(02:32):
burnout.
We also discuss how we canmaintain productivity levels
without driving ourselves andemployees to feel disengaged and
depleted.
This episode is brought to youby Vestor Ventures, our venture
capital arm investing inwomen-led companies, building
solutions for the intersectionof the care economy and future
of work.
Also by Vest Peer Network, anetwork of professional women
(02:56):
across industries, regions andcareer levels, helping each
other navigate careers andworking together to build a
future of more inclusiveworkspaces.
Excited to share that, keepCompany is now part of Vestor
Ventures portfolio.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
with Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
(03:18):
episode.
If you enjoy the episode, sharewith a friend and don't forget
to leave us a review.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
First, erica, thank you for the opportunity to meet
this powerhouse group.
Really excited to be here.
So at Keep Company, as Ericamentioned, we are a group
learning platform specificallyfor parents and caregivers, so
we are only available throughemployers.
Part of the reason is that, yes, we want to support individuals
in helping them prevent burnoutand be more strategic, but we
(03:47):
also know their systemic changesaren't necessary for families
to feel like they belong andhave a sustainable path forward
as so what we do is we gathersmall groups of six to eight
parents and caregivers.
We've developed a patentprotected technology that helps
us get kind of the right folkstogether.
We look at them on a wholeperson analysis so then, when
(04:07):
they're there and they'resimilarly situated enough,
everyone can feel reallycomfortable in what we call a
safe and brave space to share.
So we get the group together,we pair them with one of our
expert coaches and then thecoach guides the group through
our behavior science basedcurriculum.
So the number one thing that weoften heard from parents and
caregivers was that they feltalone in the struggle, like, why
(04:29):
does everyone else have thisfigured out except for me?
And so once we can get them inthat group, what we have found
is it really unlocks thepotential to build skills
largely around effectivecommunication, also social,
emotional skills, and then alsochange behaviors, and it's much
more fun and productive to dothat in a group than to do it by
(04:50):
yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, I'm happy to add kind of connect the dots
between the bios and how we gothere a little bit more, which is
that we had both been, you know, by a lot of measures,
successful at work.
We had felt equipped andresourced, and then both of us
separately, and then we kind ofcame together, had kids and felt
(05:12):
ill equipped for really thefirst time in a lot of ways, and
both of us became reallyobsessed with this question of
what would help and certainlystarted to see friends and
colleagues, particularly women,as they started taking care of a
kid or an aging parent or aspouse with cancer, whatever
life throws at you or whatever,whatever caregiving season
(05:35):
you're in.
We started to see women inparticular downsize jobs or
leave the workforce.
And as soon as you pushed intothose conversations, what I
found was that really you wouldsay, you know what did you want
to leave?
And often the answer was no, itwas.
I just didn't see a pathforward.
And so we came really kind offixated on this question of what
(05:57):
is leading, you know, reallywell equipped women in
particular to feel so illequipped, and it is that
loneliness and that isolationand the stuckness that it
creates a feeling like you'rethe only one and that it's
somehow your fault, when we allknow you know if you feel like
you're failing, you're notfailing, you're being failed by
(06:19):
a lack of that systemic support,right, and so how do we make
sure that people know that it'snot just them and it's not on
them?
And then the second piece inthat gap between feeling
equipped and all of a sudden illequipped is that emotional
skills.
So how do you ask for help?
How do you say no?
How do you effectively hold aboundary with your boss or your
(06:40):
spouse or your mother in law,whatever that looks like?
And those are skills.
They're skills that none of usare really taught and that
everyone in the workforce needs,but when you become a parent or
caregiver, they become itreally becomes exacerbated.
And so that's really where wefocus our attention on making
sure people don't feel alone.
That's the power of the groupand then in moving them into
(07:02):
action and skill building sothat they can think more
strategically about home andtaking care of themselves, the
way we do think strategicallyabout work.
I became kind of one of thethings I said over and over as
after I had my first child washow do I apply my MBA to
motherhood.
What would that even look like?
It feels like we're so reactiveand in we're so strategic at
(07:27):
work, like you would never starta new job without a budget and
a plan.
What are my resources, what aremy goals?
But we do that at home everysingle day.
So what would it look like togive women, in particular, the
tools to be more strategic abouttheir decisions?
And then, of course, we needmore systemic support, right,
and we think employers have avested interest in providing it.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
As a reminder for those of you that are new to
VEST, vest has a peer network.
We also have an investment firmthat exclusively focuses on
investing in women led companiesthat are building solutions to
fix our broken careinfrastructure, which is what
we're talking about the systemicbarriers that get in the way of
not just women but workingparents in general to succeed
(08:12):
both at home and at work.
And this problem is actuallyreally vast as over a $6 billion
market in opportunity.
Missed opportunity because,unfortunately, when you look at
investors and investments orleadership at the public level
because this is going to requirepublic-private partnership,
investments right.
But when you look at who is atthe top making decisions of
(08:35):
where to put money, where to putresources, where to fix the
system, primarily has been, youknow, it's mill dominated.
And when you look at the data,77% of high achieving males have
a support system at work or athome.
I'm sorry, compare that to only22% of high achieving women
(08:56):
that only have a support system.
So when I talk often aboutinvestments in LPs, trying to
get them to invest in our fundsso we can invest in companies,
it's often hard for a lot ofthese decision makers who've
never really paid attention tohow big the opportunity is,
because they never have to Right, and so that's why we're so
excited to invest in companieslike Keep Company that are
(09:19):
providing these services butalso are trying to challenge the
very systems while givingemployers the tools and
platforms they need to besuccessful while doing it.
So, again, really excited thatyou guys are part of the
portfolio.
Well, this month we are talkingabout burnout.
You know, I feel like, whileduring 2020, during the COVID
(09:40):
pandemic, there was a lot ofawakening, if you will, at
corporate that people startedpaying attention of how burnout
affects productivity, but I feellike we've gone back to
business as usual in a lot ofways, and that is very
unfortunate because you stillsee, you know, I talk also often
(10:01):
about yeah, we should be proudthat now women finally represent
10% of women CEOs at S&P 500companies, but what a lot of
people don't look at also isthat 50% of those high achieving
women are considering and whatyou just mentioned, claudia
leaving the workforce in general, because they're just burned
out, right, or they feel lonely,as you often say, claudia, and
(10:23):
one of the best definitions I'veever heard of burnout is
emotional fatigue.
Right, we're just emotionally,you know, fatigued and that
affects everything that we do,not just at work but at home.
So I thought that it was.
We thought it was an importanttopic to discuss, at best during
the month of February, butcurious or January we're still
in January, geez, but curious.
(10:45):
Claudia and Adrienne, how wouldyou define burnout and why
should we as individuals, butalso as team leaders and
employers, care about it?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So I think there is actually, like a World Health
Organization, very specificdefinition and cynicism and
apathy, and I do think it's agreat question to start with,
because there is a fine linebetween stress and burnout, and
what we talk a lot about withour members is the resources and
(11:13):
a feeling of helplessness.
And so I, you know again notarticulate let's not put this in
stone but essentially I feellike it is a level of stress
that feels completely out ofcontrol and there's a
helplessness, and thehelplessness comes from the fact
that there's either not theresilience, there's not like
(11:34):
basic care of yourself, right,and there's also not the support
network, there's no outlets,and so it feels that's where the
apathy and the cynicism comesinto the World Health
Organization definition, becauseit feels like, no matter what I
do, this is my situation,there's no light at the end of
the tunnel, and so it isdifferent than than we'll call
(11:56):
it every day.
Stress, and it's something thatwe again work with a lot of our
members and like one just evenbuilding the awareness of where,
where am I today?
We do a check-in in everymeeting, in personhood work and
then parenting or caregiving,and that like five second
exercise of just checking inwith yourself on a scale of one
(12:16):
to 10 rank each of these thingsreally does help people to start
to become aware of like, oh I'mteetering, my personhood is
zero and you know, my work iszero, or all my energy is going
to work and it's not goingtowards anything else, and
really helps create thatawareness to then know, okay,
what are your levels to you canpull to bring yourself back up.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, and when we think about what drives
sustainability, or a lackthereof, that leads to burnout,
what we hear from parents andcaregivers I think this is
particularly true for women,given that caregiving
disproportionately lands onwomen's shoulders for lots of
reasons we can talk about isthat I'm taking care of work and
(12:58):
I'm taking care of my family,but I'm not taking care of
myself.
And taking a level even further, I don't even know what taking
care of myself would look likeanymore.
I feel so far away from myself.
And that is a really consistentthread that we hear.
And so that is where justbuilding awareness that
(13:19):
sustainability looks likeputting yourself back on the
list and building skills to takecare of yourself and protect
that time and space, not becauseit's indulgent or you know or
anything like that, but becauseit is core to sustainability.
And I think that Adrian talkedabout burnout being connected to
(13:40):
apathy or feeling likeresignation, like you're out of
control.
We really try to move peopleinto a space of agency, and that
is what the power of coachingreally is.
It is what's here today on ascale of one to 10, how has
worked, how's family, how areyou, and so what's here today?
(14:01):
And then let's move you intoaction.
And when we talk about choicesin terms of career and we talk
about, you know, people leavingthe workforce or downsizing jobs
or making changes, I was sayingto a friend the other day I
don't care if you want to leavethe workforce, I don't want to
care if you want to leave yourjob, if you want to go part time
, if.
I just want to know that it'syour choice, right?
What we want, what we're tryingto do, is make sure that people
(14:23):
are making decisionsstrategically based on what they
want and what is their choice.
And turns out you need supportand skills to do that.
It's really hard to carry thatalone and sit in a room by
yourself with no tools orsupport systems and say what do
I want?
It turns out that's really,really hard when you are
(14:43):
carrying so much pressure, andso a lot of what we try to do is
give employees the space, theskills, the support, the
facilitator, to really sit downand zoom out and say how am I?
And the cool thing about peopleis, if you give them the space
and the tools they know, theyknow the answer to what would
(15:05):
make things a little bit moresustainable, and so they're able
to build a path towards it.
But what I would say aboutburnout is that a lot of what
drives the if you are not on thelist, that's not sustainable,
and so you can push through fora while, but eventually it will
catch up, and certainly we knowthat you know.
Again back to the systemicpiece, a huge driver of why
(15:28):
we're not on the list is becausewe're carrying too much and we
need more support, and so Ithink releasing yourself of the
weight of it's on you canactually free up some space to
say OK, given this, what isavailable to me and what choices
can I make?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
One last thing.
Back to the stats that you gavethe 77% versus the 22%.
So 77% of high potential menhas support network.
It reminded me when I waspracticing attorney back in the
day.
Everybody was in the office,everyone would talk on
speakerphone and it was soannoying.
But it was at 6.15 to 6.30.
I had my door open, I was theonly woman on the entire floor
(16:10):
and I would hear almost everyman around me call their life
and ask what's for dinner.
And I'm sitting there and I'mlike who am I going to?
Oh, it's me.
Oh, I'm the one.
I have to continue to do thejob that they're doing and I
have to make the dinner, andthat you know.
And then the statistic that youshared about executive women
(16:32):
wanting to leave is the McKinseydid the study and they said the
reason that a lot of the drivefor executive women to leave is
because they are overworked butalso under-recognized.
And so women tend to do thenon-promotable work.
We're on the committees, we dothe recruiting interviews, we
plan the holiday parties, we'rementors, all of it and we say
(16:55):
yes, and we care about theemotional well-being of our team
more than men, the data showsand we at least take the time to
do that, and that is hurting us, it's costing our health and
our careers, and so when we talkabout burnout, it's so much
more than just stress.
It's like what's yourfoundation?
But then what are you beingrecognized for?
(17:16):
What are you saying yes to thatyou could say no.
So that's what we try to do isget people out of the state of
stuckness and more into astrategic, proactive management
of it, by maybe saying no to thecommittee, or maybe having
dinner and deliver that night,whatever that might look like,
those sorts of things, yeah, andI would say in terms of
building skills, learning how tohold a boundary effectively,
(17:40):
how to say no at work and athome, is one of the most
important skills.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
But it is a skill, it is learnable, it just requires
practice.
And we often hear from ourmembers great, give me a script,
literally what do I say?
And so we often do that.
So it is building thatawareness that when you say yes
to everybody, you're saying noto a lot.
So when you say no, it can bereally overwhelming to think
(18:06):
about holding that boundary.
But when you think about it inthe frame of, I am strategically
deciding what is most importantto me and in this moment I'm
going to say no to this onething, which is often
non-promotable, or other things,I am making a strategic choice.
It is not reactive.
I am choosing to value taking10 minutes for myself or doing
(18:30):
this one thing that is importantto me is aligned with my goals.
That feels really differentthan just walking around saying
no and again it comes from thisplace of what are your values,
what's important to you?
And making a choice rather thanjust saying I'm going to say no
to everything because I feellike I'm going to fall on the
floor today, because it's been asnow day for 17 days.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
It feels like I think that this all resonate with
most of us.
Vest members are.
You know, we range from C-suiteto emerging leaders, but I know
personally all Vest members andI know that we're all doing too
much, so I know that this isdefinitely something that
resonates, but curious to seewhat are employees, employers,
(19:11):
saying, and I want you to sharea story about employers that get
it and that understand how thisfundamentally affects
productivity.
And then I want you to give usa story without names, of
employers that still don't getit.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Okay, I can start with the positive one, and this
is specific to keep from the onething I will say.
To zoom out a little bit, theorganizations we have the most
traction with are theorganizations that already have
a laundry list of supports forparents, which is somewhat
counterintuitive, because youwould think, oh, they've already
got breast milk delivery orthey already have care
(19:46):
coordination, and we obviouslyfill a different gap in terms of
the group learning, but youwould think that would be a
harder sale, but it's a quickindication to us that the
organization does care, and so Iwould say, like very, very
baseline, you can tell bylooking on their website.
What kind of offerings do theyhave then, like they're walking
the walk to a certain extent.
More specifically, we areavailable to not just attorneys
(20:10):
or consultants at our clients,but to all business
professionals, so it could beadministrative assistance,
marketing, the chief diversityofficer, everyone is eligible
for keep company and they canopt in if they're a caregiver.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
So, but by the way we fought for right yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
So one issue came up where one client and this is
maybe the both sides are goodand the bad one client said well
, what about non-exemptemployees?
They're hourly and yourmeetings are 90 minutes
bi-weekly and sometimes yourmeetings are during the day,
sometimes during the evening,just depending on scheduling
preferences.
Are we gonna pay them for thattime?
And we were like, yeah, likeabsolutely again, and part of
(20:55):
what we're doing is training.
So if you need to go code itsomewhere, go do that.
And this particular firm waslike can we talk to other
clients and how they've handledthis issue?
And so I just put out like acall to my top three clients and
I said would any of you bewilling to talk to this other
organization about how you treatnon-exempt employees?
And somebody actually wrote andwas like I'm happy to talk to
(21:16):
them, but we're not, I'm notgonna be much value because it's
just part of our culture andethos that every benefit is
available to every single personin the firm.
And I was like, nope, you'reexactly who.
I want to go talk to them,right?
Like that kind of justdistinction between haves and
haves not in organizations ofany type corporate professional
(21:37):
services is really terrible andantithetical to what our core is
is to create belonging right.
So I would say that kind ofhits both sides is we have this
one client who it's like so sucha no-brainer.
They didn't even recognize thatthey're being a leader in that
sense.
And then we have the other firmthat's like wait a second, what
(21:57):
are we gonna do?
One Z, two Z for the peoplethat might have a meeting during
the workday?
How are we gonna treat that?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, I would say from an employer perspective.
So, as we've shared with ourstories, it started for us with
new moms.
It started with how can wesupport people through this
really critical inflection pointthat has such a massive
long-term impact on how theydesign their career and their
life right?
And then as we got deeper intothis work, it became clear that
(22:26):
it wasn't just new momstruggling, it was all mom
struggling, it was it doesn'tget easier as your kids get
older, just kind of changes,right.
And then it opened us up todads really really struggling,
looking for connection, alsofeeling hugely isolated, like
they don't have a model for howto take care of work and family
and be a present father the waythey want to be, the way maybe
(22:48):
their parents weren't, and a lotof kind of hunger for that.
And then we opened up tocaregivers and all in there are
many seasons of care over aninflection, that many inflection
points in a career.
You may have a new child andthen you might have a teenager
struggling with mental health,which so many are today.
(23:10):
It's one of our biggest kind ofcohorts, right, is parents of
teenagers right now that arereally struggling.
Or you might have a spousegoing through a cancer treatment
and navigating that, or youmight have a parent with
dementia.
This is all of us, and it ismany times throughout the course
of a career, and so I think forus it's really been a game
changer to build awareness withorganizations that this isn't
(23:33):
just moms of new babies, this isup to 73% of your workforce, so
why aren't we talking about it?
And, by the way, it's oftenyou're most senior leaders that
you're leaving unresourced,because they're the ones,
teenagers, that aren't coveredin the new leave stuff.
They're the ones taking care ofa parent or a sandwich
(23:53):
generation, taking care of both,and so building that awareness
that this problem is so muchbigger and expansive than you
think it is, I think for a lotof them is an aha moment that oh
my gosh, I've had a blind spot.
And so when that moment comes,for us it's often that is when
we can walk through the door andsay, okay, so what are we gonna
(24:15):
do about it?
And so for us, it often startswith just knowing how many
parents and caregivers you haveand that awareness.
Once they see the numbers,there's really nowhere to go but
forward.
And I would say, erika, to yourpoint about taking a step back,
which I don't think is wrong.
I think that in the pandemicthere was a lot of awareness
(24:38):
built.
I'm gonna go jargony here for asecond, but stay with me.
So in social work there is aterm, kind of there's this idea
of how you grow somebody'swillingness to change right, or
their readiness to changepersonally and in other ways.
And the first step is awarenessright.
(24:59):
It's just building awarenessabout what your challenges are,
what's hard for you, what youneed to work on, and then, once
you integrate that awareness,you prepare to take action and
then you take action and thenyou refine right.
That is true at the individuallevel.
It's also true at theorganizational level.
Once you have built awarenessof how big this problem is and
(25:20):
how crazy the numbers are around, how this impacts people's
productivity and their long-termlongevity at work, you can't
fully go back.
And so, while I do think we'rehaving some steps back now, I
think that you know leaders thatare saying you know, in the
return to office negotiationlast year, it felt like a lot of
(25:41):
senior leaders were saying arewe going back yet?
What are we going back?
Are we going back yet?
And we kept saying there is nogoing back Like this.
Awareness is here.
Your employees have differentexpectations of you and of
themselves.
That is not changing, and so,while I think now we're going
through another renegotiation, Ithink that that has not changed
(26:03):
and I would say that the manygenerations in the workforce
right now and as we all know andhave experienced they have very
different expectations.
So I think that what thepandemic didn't do, gen Z is
really pushing forward, and Ithink that is going to take more
creative leaders that arewilling to redesign work
(26:24):
expectations, because I don'tthink there is a going back as
much as we're going to have topush a little bit harder now.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Okay, so I have a lot more questions regarding
employers and the benefit ofchanging the system, but I want
to go back to the individualperson a little bit, because I
know I've experienced burnoutmany times in the past and when
you're in that state it's hardto pause and acknowledge that
you are in fact feeling depleted, right, maybe because you are
(26:52):
going so fast and you know and Igrew up as an immigrant, first
generation immigrant in ourfamily it's like there's no such
a thing as not working hard andyou know victim.
You know like, oh, you're beinga victim, just get up and do
what you have to do and blah,blah, blah.
And self care is kind of likeprivilege, right.
And so I struggle with taking astep back and identifying that
(27:16):
I'm in that state of feelingdepleted and having emotional
fatigue.
So what are some of the systemsor signs that you coach people
through so that they canidentify when they are in fact
in that state?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I love this question, yeah, so I think stress burnout
shows up differently fordifferent people, and so I'll
talk about how we coach ourmembers.
But just personally, betweenCli and I, when we did the
Techstars program, we had theopportunity to do something
called an IMAP assessment andit's, like you know, similar to
(27:53):
Amir's Briggs or something, butone of the specific questions or
you know results in the outputwas how stress shows up, and so
now we have shared the resultswith each other and lean on each
other to call out, and I willshare mine is I'm typically a
pretty friendly person, but Iwill get like short and, like
(28:14):
you know, when I'm stressed,like there is no time for chit
chat, like it stings, you know,and so when Claudia is on the
other end of that, she'll belike waving a flag, you know,
and that's been so incrediblyhelpful and I'll share.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I'm the literal opposite, which is that when I
am getting into that space ofexacerbated stress and burnout
or I would say importantlycumulative because, right, the
impact of it is cumulative Ithink that's important to have
awareness of I can get reallysensitive.
I can take things personallythat are personal and so I can
like it can just kind of cloudmy judgment, I would say in that
(28:50):
way where it feels like it'sabout me but it's not about me.
And so that is when Adrianstarts to say heads up, this is
where I'm coming from.
But it's hugely valuable.
And this is again where thatpersonal and professional start
to intertwine, because it'sreally valuable to know that,
because it allows us to bebetter teammates, it allows us
(29:13):
to say because can you imagineif we didn't have that awareness
?
And guess what?
We're co-founders, so you knowwhen one of us is stressed,
who's also stressed?
So we're going into the same atthe same time, into those what
they call basement behaviors orstress reactions.
So that awareness again, thisword keeps coming up right,
building that awareness, I think.
Also I heard in the pandemicthere was a lot of stuff about
(29:39):
rage and how rage can surfacefor people when they are super,
super exacerbated and stressedand that is a feeling that often
feels very unfamiliar andyou're like whoa, where did that
come from?
It's really overwhelming.
And somebody said that is yourengine light going on, and I
found that so helpful that likelearning what your burnout or
(30:01):
stress behaviors are andthinking them as the engine
light and then thinking aboutwhat can get you back to
baseline is really valuable.
But I think you were going totalk a little bit about how we
coach people through that.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah.
So I think that the baselinewould be one.
It's very common to notrecognize it in yourself, but if
you can at least start tobecome aware of the engine light
and the indicators whetherthat's in your body we have one
coach who is very into somatichealing, so like, notice how
stress shows up for you but thentell someone about it so that
they can help you, whetherthat's somebody at home or
(30:34):
somebody at work, that's reallyhelpful.
Going back, like socialemotional learning I don't know
for those of you who havechildren, you might notice that
our kids are learning about thisnow.
It's part of curriculum inschools where you have to name
your feelings and then manageyour feelings and then take
mindfulness breaks and move yourbody, and these are all basic
(30:55):
things our kids are learningthat we did not in school.
So one thing that we really docoach our members on, and it's
really woven throughout ourcurriculum, is social emotional
learning.
Like just that connection toyourself, your actual body, your
emotions, where you feelphysically, mentally,
emotionally, is like veryfoundational to be able to
(31:17):
manage the stress or evenrecognize it first.
And then, of course, it's thegroup right.
So knowing that you're not theonly one, the number one
testimonial we get in some formor fashion is I'm bummed to hear
other people are struggling,but I'm really glad to hear I'm
not alone, right.
And so once you know thatyou're in that zone of stress
(31:39):
but you're not alone, and thisis hard, what you're doing is
hard then that can be a hugeunlock too.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
So talking about it with other people, yeah, I wanna
connect these skills to howthey show up at work.
So when we talk about emotionalskills at work, often that
looks like our kind of glossaryor our kind of language around.
Emotional skills at work is solimited.
Often we talk about they're agood manager, they're a bad
(32:08):
manager, and that's pretty muchthe extent of it.
But what drives somebody beinga good manager or a bad manager
often has to do with emotionalskills.
It has to do with are you aneffective communicator?
Do you hold a boundaryeffectively, with grace and with
awareness?
It has to do with do you say no, with context, which is deeply
(32:30):
motivating, or without it, whichis deeply demotivating and
leads to vast performance issues.
And so when you build skills incommunication which we do when
you build skills inself-awareness which we do,
turns out you show up better athome and at work.
And we all know that right,because we have had managers who
(32:52):
don't have those skills rightand we see how it affects other
people around them.
And similarly, one person whodoesn't have these skills and
has the power to create a toxicenvironment has ripple effects
that go far beyond that personto the performance and the
wellbeing of the team.
Similarly, if you have theseskills, the impact goes so far
(33:18):
beyond you, and so what we hearfrom our members is okay, I'm
taking these skills and Iapplied them with my teenage
daughter and I applied them withmy boss and I applied them with
my colleague, and what we oftensay is it expands what's
possible for the people aroundyou.
One interesting kind of toolthat I love we both became kind
of in this process.
(33:38):
We both found coaching andfound it really helpful and
became coach, trained coachesourselves, and one of the tools
that I find really helpful incoaching is everybody has kind
of this.
There's lots of different wordsfor it, but in kind of the
coaching that we did, it'scalled your Savitur, which is
kind of that like inner negativedialogue.
Right, we all have it.
Sometimes it's really loud,sometimes we can quiet it a
(34:00):
little bit more, but we all haveit, and so if you think about
that inner negative dialoguethat's your Savitur, when you
are coming from that place ofyour Savitur or your negative
place a small place, an insecureplace it often calls forth
other people's Savitur.
So when you show up from thatplace, often other people in
(34:21):
response do too, and they don'teven notice it.
The opposite is also true.
When you show up steadier, moreself-aware, that calls that
forth in other people withouteven noticing it.
And so that is the impact ofemotional skills at work.
It expands what is possible foryour team.
And so we have certainly soldinto HR teams because this is a
(34:46):
people issue.
We've sold into DE&I becausethis disproportionately impacts
women and people of color, butwe've also sold into learning
and development teams becausewe're building these emotional
skills which hugely affect howpeople can be resilient at work
and expand what's possible fortheir teams.
So I could talk all day longabout how important this is at
(35:10):
work.
Because I think again back tothis like are we going back this
world where I think, thispre-pandemic world?
I would argue, where I put on mywork hat and then I seamlessly
take it off.
And I put on my mom hat and Iseamlessly take it off and I put
on my caregiver hat and then Iput on my Claudia hat where I am
myself.
Like that's not real and so theexpectation that we could all
(35:32):
do that seamlessly is false andit's hurting us.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
You know there's a saying in venture capital or
private investments in general,that investors are only excited
to make an investment the daythey made the investment and
then after that, like theexcitement kind of wears off.
And the opposite is true for meand I'm sure that for the rest
of the best membership, as wecontinue to talk to you guys,
(35:57):
because I can't stand venturecapital.
To be quite honest with you,the whole industry in itself.
I think it's a broken model.
I don't think it's the solutionto a lot of things, but it's
there, right, and it fuelscompanies and unfortunately, it
has some fuel companies thatactually need to exist.
We see a lot of investmentoften going to like even in AI,
right, like who the hell askedfor?
(36:19):
Like fake celebrities, like asif we needed more, you know
stuff like that, but instead offunding the care infrastructure
or funding things that weactually need desperately, I
read a report recently by BCGthat if we don't fix the care
crisis, we're looking at a $209billion deficit in GDP
consecutively.
(36:40):
So cumulative, like you said,claudia, year over year, that's
a huge loss in GDP as a nationand the fact that we're not
talking about it to me is verytroublesome in a lot of ways.
So again, just to say I'm getmore excited about this
investment and the opportunitiesto build the future of work in
a way that really enables womenand working parents and general
(37:04):
caregivers to stay in theworkforce and be prosperous.
But with that, I wanna talk toyou about something that's very
unique to women.
Right, as women, we've beenprogrammed particularly at work,
particularly in leadershiproles and or particularly if
you're in a toxic workenvironment or in an environment
(37:25):
where it's looked as a weakness.
If you share that, you know youdon't have the capacity to do
more and as a result of that, Ifeel like sometimes we're not
comfortable talking about it.
And as leaders, I know thatI've recognized sometimes when I
have team members where I'vesaid, hey, you need to take a
break, like, just take a break,go be with your family, go do
(37:47):
what you enjoy doing.
But it's sometimes it's hard toaddress that if you know that
the person is not ready to yourpoint.
I think, claudia, you mentionedyou have to be aware you have
to be ready to receive, to wantto receive help.
How can you coach?
Some of us have teams, some ofus are leading teams, some of us
are employers, how would youcoach us to have those
(38:08):
conversations that can beuncomfortable, particularly with
women, or anybody that's notcomfortable, yet accepting that
they're in that state of stressor state of feeling depleted?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
I think the most powerful thing leaders can do is
model.
So, instead of it being aconversation where you are
pushing in to someone and sayingseems like you're really.
I know this is how you exhibitstress, this is your stress.
Seems like you're reallystressed, I think you should
take a day off.
I think that leaders should dothat themselves and be explicit
(38:41):
about it.
I think it can be whether it issomeone who's particularly
stressed that needs a mentalhealth date, saying hey, I'm out
tomorrow, I need a break.
This is, I have this, oh, andeven brownie points.
I would say, if they say we'rein crunch time at work and I
have a lot going on at homeright now with my family, the
level of specifics will dependon the individual right.
(39:03):
Some people are morecomfortable sharing details
about what's going on at homethan others.
But just saying I have a lotgoing on at home right now, in
addition to what we have goingon at work, I'm gonna take a
moment or a day or a day orwhatever it is.
That is implicit permission forother people to do it.
You don't have to have aconversation directly with them.
There are more explicit thingsand we actually, in one of our
(39:27):
quarterly insights, shared thiswith our clients a script that
managers could send saying hey,it's May.
I expect everyone to takevacation over this summer.
I'm going to be taking it onthese days.
I will not be available.
Therefore, a week before myvacation, I'm gonna have
one-on-one meetings with each ofyou to make sure that you have
(39:49):
what you need while I'm gone,because I won't be available.
So, again, exhibiting thedrawing, the boundaries, but
doing it in a professional waythat it's not just like oh I'm
out, you can't call me.
It is making sure that they'resetting themselves up so that
they can be out, and so I thinkthat would be.
My suggestion is it's the mostpowerful is just to model it.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, I think that is top-down, and we hear every day
the impact of people seeingthat from their leadership.
I would say bottom up, oremployee up.
I think there's a lot ofconversation right now about
psychological safety andbringing your full self to work,
and if you feel like you can'tbring your full self to work,
(40:32):
that's okay and that'sreasonable, right.
And so I think this expectationthat we bring all of us
everywhere we go is notrealistic, and so I think that
we gotta free ourselves up fromthat and say, okay, where are
opportunities to show my wholeperson and model that?
And what am I choosingstrategically?
(40:53):
Again from a place of choice,where can I say you know what?
This is a place where it'sreally important that they know
this, and so I'm gonna create acontainer where I know I can
best do that.
So some people communicate mosteffectively in email.
So, if you feel like you, it'ssomething you're not gonna be
comfortable sharing in person,because you know how you're
gonna get the pushback, put anemail, that way you can think
(41:15):
about it and you can be more incontrol of that mechanism.
Or do it one-on-one.
Some people are not ascomfortable, or you know less,
to take it off of the onus offof them.
They're not in a culture wherethat is really reasonable and so
have those conversationsone-on-one.
I think it's really coming froma place of leadership and
(41:35):
making those choices.
But I would free ourselves upfrom this expectation that
you're gonna be your whole selfeverywhere.
Sometimes that's not what youwant and sometimes it's not the
most strategic choice, andthat's okay, right.
You can still click into yourwhole person and now feel this
pressure to be at all the timeeverywhere.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
One other cultural system level thing that is
recommended and we are startingto implement even within Keep
Company, is the micro, meso andmacro breaks.
So, like brain, science showsthat during your day, being in
back-to-back zooms is not goodfor your health and it's only
going to lead to or exacerbateburnout.
So five minutes are your microbreaks throughout the day, and
(42:19):
then the meso is, I think, onehour a week blocking your
calendar, and this is to do, notto go run errands, but to do
something for yourself Take awalk, go get fresh air, exercise
, call a friend, whatever thatmight look like.
And then the macro is like ahalf day a month, and so there's
things like that where it mightfeel hokey and forced, but from
(42:40):
a leadership or a culturalperspective, it sends the
message that this matters.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, and again to building the skill of accessing
personhood.
The first time you take thathour or that half day, you're
going to be like I don't evenknow what to do with myself if
I'm not running errands ortaking things off of my to-do
list.
But the second or the thirdtime we find people saying I
called my sister, or I took thisclass I haven't taken in five
(43:06):
years, or I just sat in silenceat a coffee shop, whatever, and
so it's giving yourself somespace to reconnect with that
stuff that fills you up.
Speaker 5 (43:18):
Yeah, thank you.
After listening to you guys, Idon't know how old are you.
I think that you guys are veryyoung, but I've been in a
leadership situation in the pastfew weeks that I never thought
I would be feeling like I don'tbelong in a group of Latinas
(43:38):
which I thought I belong.
But I'm talking aboutgenerational.
It's because maybe I'm theolder Latina in the room and
this younger generation is sohard to communicate and you use
touch about it when you saidmaybe they can text, maybe send
them a text, maybe send them anemail, and I think our
generation is more.
(43:58):
We just say it like it is.
We don't sugarcoat anything andwe can do it all and we just
have a tough kin and just on away, I've been feeling like,
wait, I'm the only one here thatI don't feel offended by
anything.
So leadership is to a levelwhere, even when you have
generations on people that Iwork with that they're under 20s
(44:21):
, it's exhausting to try to,even if they're coming from the
same culture, even if they areLatina, but try to accommodate
the way they communicate.
And I don't try to be rude withthe people in the room that are
under 20s, but I mean I justdefinitely it is like an
imposter syndrome that I neverthought I would have it with my
(44:44):
own group of ladies, because youwere like I'm too old, you know
, and my ideas are not that youknow bright anymore, so that it
just my guess.
My question is how do you dealwith that stress level of
becoming a leader with differentgenerations in your office?
Speaker 3 (45:05):
So I'm not that young , but I love you for saying that
and this will show.
Because when I was at HP, theCEO at the time was Meg Whitman,
and she was concerned aboutmillennials.
So I actually helped spearheadan initiative because she was
like why is it that millennialscome to work asking what's work
going to do for me, when mygeneration was grateful to have
(45:28):
a job and constantly think abouthow we could make the company
better?
And so it was a true quest thatshe had, and so I think what it
came down to in the researchthat we did, we did reverse
mentoring was really a popularprogram, but what it really came
down to was communication, andwhat we do before we kick off
(45:49):
any group is we train people andhow to supportively listen, and
what that means is putting yourviews or your opinions inside
and holding what we call a safeand brave and judgment free
space, and so it's okay that youhave different views than the
other women on your team.
And it should be okay with themas well, and so it's really
(46:11):
creating an expectation in anorm around we don't have to
necessarily agree on everythingto be able to hold space,
connect, support and lift eachother up.
Even so, I don't you didn't saythis at all, but there's no
right or wrong and I think it isreductive for anyone to put a
(46:32):
person of a generation in a box.
It's about people and it'sabout communication and respect,
and so I think, like, in termsof what does that mean for you
and this group?
I think it could be a reallyhard conversation.
We always say a lot of theremedy to the challenges our
members bring is a hardconversation.
It can be at work or it couldbe at home, and apologies if
(46:54):
this is not the answer or likeis unrelated, but I think it
could be a hard conversationwith your coworkers to say, hey
guys, this is how I'm feeling.
I'm feeling like I don't belongbecause we're of different
generation, we have differentviews, but I want you to know
that, like, I love and respectyou and I'm here to support you
and we are a team and I justwant you to, you know, be sure
(47:16):
that you feel the same way.
And what are some things thatwe can do, what are some norms
that we can co-create togetherto make sure we all feel
included?
And I'm sorry, like I said, Iknow that's a hard conversation
and putting it on your shouldersis, like not necessarily what I
want to do, but I do think,otherwise it might just fester
and calcify.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, and I would just say, to extrapolate that
for people that also lead groups.
So we kind of specialize in thebehavior science and mechanisms
around creating psychologicalsafety in a group, like the
magic of bringing peopletogether that are similar enough
and different enough.
And I will say one of thebiggest challenges is feeling
like you're the lonely onlysomething in a group, which is,
(47:59):
again, a lot of what you'retalking about here is really
really difficult.
And so and you know, as women,we are often the only woman in a
conversation, especially at theleadership level, right, and so
I think that is an exacerbator.
And so I would just say to pullfrom that to the whole group
just a little bit of awarenessthat if there's somebody on your
(48:20):
team who is the lonely onlysomething, building awareness
that opening up those lines ofcommunications with that person
in particular is really criticalfor pulling their voice into
the room.
Because I think that you knowhow powerful would it be that
you walk into that conversationtomorrow, elian, and somebody
says hey, elian, I want to makesure that you're feeling
(48:41):
included in this conversation.
Is there anything you want totalk about?
And just giving you thatopening right would be so
powerful.
And so I think, to the extentthat us as leaders, that we can
model that to Adrienne's earlierpoint and do some of that, it's
a huge opportunity.
It's a huge opportunity.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
One of my favorite sessions at VAS was during COVID
.
We had a Gen C member that wasactually in DC, and then we had
a C-suite member I think she wasbased in Oklahoma and they were
talking about their verydifferent experiences dealing
(49:21):
with COVID and dealing withremote work, and the member the
Gen C member felt like she feltlike she wasn't living up to the
job, that she wanted to do more, but she wasn't hearing from
her employer, and so she wasgiven her perspective, and then
the C-suite member was given herperspective, not hearing from
(49:42):
them.
Anyway, I love what you saidabout just listening with a
mindset of support.
It's not about me right now.
It's about me hearing you andhearing what you have to say and
how you feel, and then we cancome together with a solution.
By the same token, elian, Iwant to tell you that I support
you.
I am becoming that older Latinaand Latina groups when we meet,
(50:07):
and I also have a Gen C girlthat challenges my and I think
I'm very progressive, you knowand she challenged me each and
every day, but I think for thebetter right, even when we
disagree.
So I love this question so muchI'm going to give it to Amy.
And then I also want to remindus we have five minutes, so I'll
(50:28):
give it to Amy for a quickresponse.
And then I really want you,claudia and Adrienne, to close
us with what are three thingsthat we can do if we identify
that we are in that state offeeling depleted.
Speaker 6 (50:41):
I thought I was going to work with young people and
many of you on the call who knowme know forever and I'm 45,
I'll be 46 this year and just tothe point of now I'm like
having to transition to like,really and this goes with what
you just were saying, ericareally I put my hand up before
but learning how to sort oftranslate that generational gap
(51:05):
and not just look at it as achallenge, but like there are
ways that we, you know, there iswisdom in what we have.
So I really appreciate thisconversation.
I haven't been with this groupfor a while.
I went through a career changeof my own, so I'm excited to be
back and committed in 2024 to beparticipating more so.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Welcome back, amy, and congrats on the career
transition.
Let's close with that.
If we are feeling depleted, ifwe are identifying the way or
we're getting ready to likewe're starting to fill the
symptoms that you mentionedbefore, what are three things
that we can do to get out ofthat state?
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, I have two in my night, so I'm going to start
with two and then we can pingpong a little bit.
My first is try to buildawareness of what makes you feel
depleted, and so that lookslike I'm an introvert, and so I
joke that when we go toconferences and things like that
and I'm talking a lot and veryexternal I run out of words by a
(52:05):
certain point of day.
I know I will be exhausted atthe end of the day.
So what can I do?
And with that awareness, howcan I manage my schedule a
little bit differently andthings like that.
So just awareness of the thingsthat drive stress and exacerbate
things for you.
That's the first one.
The second one is build a listand write it down of five things
(52:29):
that fill you up and put it ona sticky note on your desk and
reference it when you need to.
So note to self taking a 10minute walk always helps.
Note to self call this onefriend.
Note to self, right, Like whatare those things?
Because in the moment it canfeel really overwhelming.
But you know yourself, right,you have more tools than you
(52:51):
realize.
So when you are feelingresourced, write them down so
that when you are feeling alittle less resourced, you can
be a friend to yourself in thatmoment right and help yourself
out.
So those are my two Buildawareness of what tends to
exacerbate things and thenmanage accordingly, and then to
(53:12):
write a list of things that canhelp.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Mine are ask for help , ask another human being for
help.
We often think we have to doeverything ourselves.
We don't want to impose onothers, whatever it might be.
I had a situation last weekwhere school closed at half day
because of rain and I hadmeetings.
I couldn't pick up my son andso I asked another mom who I
actually wasn't that close withand she's like, yeah, sure, I'll
(53:36):
pick them up, and she said tome thank you for asking me.
So people want to help.
So ask for help in whateverarena of your life, it would be
most impactful.
And then the other one issaying no.
And this is my challenge.
You can't always.
A nudge from a coach is foreveryone to take the next
whatever 30 seconds after thiscall and think about one thing
(53:57):
you could say no to.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
If you enjoyed this episode, share with a friend and
don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwbestherco and applytoday.
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and
founding member of Vest, anorganization connecting women
across industries, regions andcareer levels so that together
we can expedite the pipeline ofmore women in positions of power
and influence.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Vestor podcast, where we
(00:23):
explore the investable barriersholding women back in the
workplace and share stories ofwomen building power
collectively.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
When we think about what drives sustainability, or a
lack thereof, that leads toburnout.
What we hear from parents andcaregivers I think this is
particularly true for women,given that caregiving
disproportionately lands onwomen's shoulders for lots of
reasons we can talk about isthat I'm taking care of work and
(01:00):
I'm taking care of my family,but I'm not taking care of
myself.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Back to the stats.
You gave it the 77% versus the22%.
So 77% of high potential menhad support network.
It reminded me when I waspracticing attorney back in the
day.
Everybody was in the office andeveryone would talk on
speakerphone and it was soannoying.
But it was at 6.15 to 6.30.
I had my door open.
(01:26):
I was the only woman on theentire floor and I would hear
almost every man around me calltheir wife and ask what's for
dinner.
And I'm sitting there and I'mlike who am I going to?
Oh, oh, it's me.
Oh, I'm the one I have tocontinue to do the job that
they're doing and I have to makethe dinner.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
More and more women are considering switching roles
or leaving the labor force ingeneral as a result of burnout.
This burnout is, in large part,due to caregiving
responsibilities.
In fact, caregivingresponsibilities are the number
two reason only behindretirement that people mostly
women leave the workplace.
This negatively impacts ournation's workforce availability
(02:09):
as well as women's lifetimeearnings, making this not a
women's issue but an economicissue.
In this episode, we talked toAdrian Prentice and Claudia name
Bert, founders of Keep Company,a venture-backed company
helping employers reduce burnoutand turnover of employees with
caregiving responsibilities.
Join us as we talk aboutidentifying and mitigating
(02:32):
burnout.
We also discuss how we canmaintain productivity levels
without driving ourselves andemployees to feel disengaged and
depleted.
This episode is brought to youby Vestor Ventures, our venture
capital arm investing inwomen-led companies, building
solutions for the intersectionof the care economy and future
of work.
Also by Vest Peer Network, anetwork of professional women
(02:56):
across industries, regions andcareer levels, helping each
other navigate careers andworking together to build a
future of more inclusiveworkspaces.
Excited to share that, keepCompany is now part of Vestor
Ventures portfolio.
This conversation was part of amore intimate coaching session
with Vest members and has beenrepurposed to accommodate this
(03:18):
episode.
If you enjoy the episode, sharewith a friend and don't forget
to leave us a review.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
First, erica, thank you for the opportunity to meet
this powerhouse group.
Really excited to be here.
So at Keep Company, as Ericamentioned, we are a group
learning platform specificallyfor parents and caregivers, so
we are only available throughemployers.
Part of the reason is that, yes, we want to support individuals
in helping them prevent burnoutand be more strategic, but we
(03:47):
also know their systemic changesaren't necessary for families
to feel like they belong andhave a sustainable path forward
as so what we do is we gathersmall groups of six to eight
parents and caregivers.
We've developed a patentprotected technology that helps
us get kind of the right folkstogether.
We look at them on a wholeperson analysis so then, when
(04:07):
they're there and they'resimilarly situated enough,
everyone can feel reallycomfortable in what we call a
safe and brave space to share.
So we get the group together,we pair them with one of our
expert coaches and then thecoach guides the group through
our behavior science basedcurriculum.
So the number one thing that weoften heard from parents and
caregivers was that they feltalone in the struggle, like, why
(04:29):
does everyone else have thisfigured out except for me?
And so once we can get them inthat group, what we have found
is it really unlocks thepotential to build skills
largely around effectivecommunication, also social,
emotional skills, and then alsochange behaviors, and it's much
more fun and productive to dothat in a group than to do it by
(04:50):
yourself.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, I'm happy to add kind of connect the dots
between the bios and how we gothere a little bit more, which is
that we had both been, you know, by a lot of measures,
successful at work.
We had felt equipped andresourced, and then both of us
separately, and then we kind ofcame together, had kids and felt
(05:12):
ill equipped for really thefirst time in a lot of ways, and
both of us became reallyobsessed with this question of
what would help and certainlystarted to see friends and
colleagues, particularly women,as they started taking care of a
kid or an aging parent or aspouse with cancer, whatever
life throws at you or whatever,whatever caregiving season
(05:35):
you're in.
We started to see women inparticular downsize jobs or
leave the workforce.
And as soon as you pushed intothose conversations, what I
found was that really you wouldsay, you know what did you want
to leave?
And often the answer was no, itwas.
I just didn't see a pathforward.
And so we came really kind offixated on this question of what
(05:57):
is leading, you know, reallywell equipped women in
particular to feel so illequipped, and it is that
loneliness and that isolationand the stuckness that it
creates a feeling like you'rethe only one and that it's
somehow your fault, when we allknow you know if you feel like
you're failing, you're notfailing, you're being failed by
(06:19):
a lack of that systemic support,right, and so how do we make
sure that people know that it'snot just them and it's not on
them?
And then the second piece inthat gap between feeling
equipped and all of a sudden illequipped is that emotional
skills.
So how do you ask for help?
How do you say no?
How do you effectively hold aboundary with your boss or your
(06:40):
spouse or your mother in law,whatever that looks like?
And those are skills.
They're skills that none of usare really taught and that
everyone in the workforce needs,but when you become a parent or
caregiver, they become itreally becomes exacerbated.
And so that's really where wefocus our attention on making
sure people don't feel alone.
That's the power of the groupand then in moving them into
(07:02):
action and skill building sothat they can think more
strategically about home andtaking care of themselves, the
way we do think strategicallyabout work.
I became kind of one of thethings I said over and over as
after I had my first child washow do I apply my MBA to
motherhood.
What would that even look like?
It feels like we're so reactiveand in we're so strategic at
(07:27):
work, like you would never starta new job without a budget and
a plan.
What are my resources, what aremy goals?
But we do that at home everysingle day.
So what would it look like togive women, in particular, the
tools to be more strategic abouttheir decisions?
And then, of course, we needmore systemic support, right,
and we think employers have avested interest in providing it.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
As a reminder for those of you that are new to
VEST, vest has a peer network.
We also have an investment firmthat exclusively focuses on
investing in women led companiesthat are building solutions to
fix our broken careinfrastructure, which is what
we're talking about the systemicbarriers that get in the way of
not just women but workingparents in general to succeed
(08:12):
both at home and at work.
And this problem is actuallyreally vast as over a $6 billion
market in opportunity.
Missed opportunity because,unfortunately, when you look at
investors and investments orleadership at the public level
because this is going to requirepublic-private partnership,
investments right.
But when you look at who is atthe top making decisions of
(08:35):
where to put money, where to putresources, where to fix the
system, primarily has been, youknow, it's mill dominated.
And when you look at the data,77% of high achieving males have
a support system at work or athome.
I'm sorry, compare that to only22% of high achieving women
(08:56):
that only have a support system.
So when I talk often aboutinvestments in LPs, trying to
get them to invest in our fundsso we can invest in companies,
it's often hard for a lot ofthese decision makers who've
never really paid attention tohow big the opportunity is,
because they never have to Right, and so that's why we're so
excited to invest in companieslike Keep Company that are
(09:19):
providing these services butalso are trying to challenge the
very systems while givingemployers the tools and
platforms they need to besuccessful while doing it.
So, again, really excited thatyou guys are part of the
portfolio.
Well, this month we are talkingabout burnout.
You know, I feel like, whileduring 2020, during the COVID
(09:40):
pandemic, there was a lot ofawakening, if you will, at
corporate that people startedpaying attention of how burnout
affects productivity, but I feellike we've gone back to
business as usual in a lot ofways, and that is very
unfortunate because you stillsee, you know, I talk also often
(10:01):
about yeah, we should be proudthat now women finally represent
10% of women CEOs at S&P 500companies, but what a lot of
people don't look at also isthat 50% of those high achieving
women are considering and whatyou just mentioned, claudia
leaving the workforce in general, because they're just burned
out, right, or they feel lonely,as you often say, claudia, and
(10:23):
one of the best definitions I'veever heard of burnout is
emotional fatigue.
Right, we're just emotionally,you know, fatigued and that
affects everything that we do,not just at work but at home.
So I thought that it was.
We thought it was an importanttopic to discuss, at best during
the month of February, butcurious or January we're still
in January, geez, but curious.
(10:45):
Claudia and Adrienne, how wouldyou define burnout and why
should we as individuals, butalso as team leaders and
employers, care about it?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
So I think there is actually, like a World Health
Organization, very specificdefinition and cynicism and
apathy, and I do think it's agreat question to start with,
because there is a fine linebetween stress and burnout, and
what we talk a lot about withour members is the resources and
(11:13):
a feeling of helplessness.
And so I, you know again notarticulate let's not put this in
stone but essentially I feellike it is a level of stress
that feels completely out ofcontrol and there's a
helplessness, and thehelplessness comes from the fact
that there's either not theresilience, there's not like
(11:34):
basic care of yourself, right,and there's also not the support
network, there's no outlets,and so it feels that's where the
apathy and the cynicism comesinto the World Health
Organization definition, becauseit feels like, no matter what I
do, this is my situation,there's no light at the end of
the tunnel, and so it isdifferent than than we'll call
(11:56):
it every day.
Stress, and it's something thatwe again work with a lot of our
members and like one just evenbuilding the awareness of where,
where am I today?
We do a check-in in everymeeting, in personhood work and
then parenting or caregiving,and that like five second
exercise of just checking inwith yourself on a scale of one
(12:16):
to 10 rank each of these thingsreally does help people to start
to become aware of like, oh I'mteetering, my personhood is
zero and you know, my work iszero, or all my energy is going
to work and it's not goingtowards anything else, and
really helps create thatawareness to then know, okay,
what are your levels to you canpull to bring yourself back up.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, and when we think about what drives
sustainability, or a lackthereof, that leads to burnout,
what we hear from parents andcaregivers I think this is
particularly true for women,given that caregiving
disproportionately lands onwomen's shoulders for lots of
reasons we can talk about isthat I'm taking care of work and
(12:58):
I'm taking care of my family,but I'm not taking care of
myself.
And taking a level even further, I don't even know what taking
care of myself would look likeanymore.
I feel so far away from myself.
And that is a really consistentthread that we hear.
And so that is where justbuilding awareness that
(13:19):
sustainability looks likeputting yourself back on the
list and building skills to takecare of yourself and protect
that time and space, not becauseit's indulgent or you know or
anything like that, but becauseit is core to sustainability.
And I think that Adrian talkedabout burnout being connected to
(13:40):
apathy or feeling likeresignation, like you're out of
control.
We really try to move peopleinto a space of agency, and that
is what the power of coachingreally is.
It is what's here today on ascale of one to 10, how has
worked, how's family, how areyou, and so what's here today?
(14:01):
And then let's move you intoaction.
And when we talk about choicesin terms of career and we talk
about, you know, people leavingthe workforce or downsizing jobs
or making changes, I was sayingto a friend the other day I
don't care if you want to leavethe workforce, I don't want to
care if you want to leave yourjob, if you want to go part time
, if.
I just want to know that it'syour choice, right?
What we want, what we're tryingto do, is make sure that people
(14:23):
are making decisionsstrategically based on what they
want and what is their choice.
And turns out you need supportand skills to do that.
It's really hard to carry thatalone and sit in a room by
yourself with no tools orsupport systems and say what do
I want?
It turns out that's really,really hard when you are
(14:43):
carrying so much pressure, andso a lot of what we try to do is
give employees the space, theskills, the support, the
facilitator, to really sit downand zoom out and say how am I?
And the cool thing about peopleis, if you give them the space
and the tools they know, theyknow the answer to what would
(15:05):
make things a little bit moresustainable, and so they're able
to build a path towards it.
But what I would say aboutburnout is that a lot of what
drives the if you are not on thelist, that's not sustainable,
and so you can push through fora while, but eventually it will
catch up, and certainly we knowthat you know.
Again back to the systemicpiece, a huge driver of why
(15:28):
we're not on the list is becausewe're carrying too much and we
need more support, and so Ithink releasing yourself of the
weight of it's on you canactually free up some space to
say OK, given this, what isavailable to me and what choices
can I make?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
One last thing.
Back to the stats that you gavethe 77% versus the 22%.
So 77% of high potential menhas support network.
It reminded me when I waspracticing attorney back in the
day.
Everybody was in the office,everyone would talk on
speakerphone and it was soannoying.
But it was at 6.15 to 6.30.
I had my door open, I was theonly woman on the entire floor
(16:10):
and I would hear almost everyman around me call their life
and ask what's for dinner.
And I'm sitting there and I'mlike who am I going to?
Oh, it's me.
Oh, I'm the one.
I have to continue to do thejob that they're doing and I
have to make the dinner, andthat you know.
And then the statistic that youshared about executive women
(16:32):
wanting to leave is the McKinseydid the study and they said the
reason that a lot of the drivefor executive women to leave is
because they are overworked butalso under-recognized.
And so women tend to do thenon-promotable work.
We're on the committees, we dothe recruiting interviews, we
plan the holiday parties, we'rementors, all of it and we say
(16:55):
yes, and we care about theemotional well-being of our team
more than men, the data showsand we at least take the time to
do that, and that is hurting us, it's costing our health and
our careers, and so when we talkabout burnout, it's so much
more than just stress.
It's like what's yourfoundation?
But then what are you beingrecognized for?
(17:16):
What are you saying yes to thatyou could say no.
So that's what we try to do isget people out of the state of
stuckness and more into astrategic, proactive management
of it, by maybe saying no to thecommittee, or maybe having
dinner and deliver that night,whatever that might look like,
those sorts of things, yeah, andI would say in terms of
building skills, learning how tohold a boundary effectively,
(17:40):
how to say no at work and athome, is one of the most
important skills.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
But it is a skill, it is learnable, it just requires
practice.
And we often hear from ourmembers great, give me a script,
literally what do I say?
And so we often do that.
So it is building thatawareness that when you say yes
to everybody, you're saying noto a lot.
So when you say no, it can bereally overwhelming to think
(18:06):
about holding that boundary.
But when you think about it inthe frame of, I am strategically
deciding what is most importantto me and in this moment I'm
going to say no to this onething, which is often
non-promotable, or other things,I am making a strategic choice.
It is not reactive.
I am choosing to value taking10 minutes for myself or doing
(18:30):
this one thing that is importantto me is aligned with my goals.
That feels really differentthan just walking around saying
no and again it comes from thisplace of what are your values,
what's important to you?
And making a choice rather thanjust saying I'm going to say no
to everything because I feellike I'm going to fall on the
floor today, because it's been asnow day for 17 days.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
It feels like I think that this all resonate with
most of us.
Vest members are.
You know, we range from C-suiteto emerging leaders, but I know
personally all Vest members andI know that we're all doing too
much, so I know that this isdefinitely something that
resonates, but curious to seewhat are employees, employers,
(19:11):
saying, and I want you to sharea story about employers that get
it and that understand how thisfundamentally affects
productivity.
And then I want you to give usa story without names, of
employers that still don't getit.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Okay, I can start with the positive one, and this
is specific to keep from the onething I will say.
To zoom out a little bit, theorganizations we have the most
traction with are theorganizations that already have
a laundry list of supports forparents, which is somewhat
counterintuitive, because youwould think, oh, they've already
got breast milk delivery orthey already have care
(19:46):
coordination, and we obviouslyfill a different gap in terms of
the group learning, but youwould think that would be a
harder sale, but it's a quickindication to us that the
organization does care, and so Iwould say, like very, very
baseline, you can tell bylooking on their website.
What kind of offerings do theyhave then, like they're walking
the walk to a certain extent.
More specifically, we areavailable to not just attorneys
(20:10):
or consultants at our clients,but to all business
professionals, so it could beadministrative assistance,
marketing, the chief diversityofficer, everyone is eligible
for keep company and they canopt in if they're a caregiver.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
So, but by the way we fought for right yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
So one issue came up where one client and this is
maybe the both sides are goodand the bad one client said well
, what about non-exemptemployees?
They're hourly and yourmeetings are 90 minutes
bi-weekly and sometimes yourmeetings are during the day,
sometimes during the evening,just depending on scheduling
preferences.
Are we gonna pay them for thattime?
And we were like, yeah, likeabsolutely again, and part of
(20:55):
what we're doing is training.
So if you need to go code itsomewhere, go do that.
And this particular firm waslike can we talk to other
clients and how they've handledthis issue?
And so I just put out like acall to my top three clients and
I said would any of you bewilling to talk to this other
organization about how you treatnon-exempt employees?
And somebody actually wrote andwas like I'm happy to talk to
(21:16):
them, but we're not, I'm notgonna be much value because it's
just part of our culture andethos that every benefit is
available to every single personin the firm.
And I was like, nope, you'reexactly who.
I want to go talk to them,right?
Like that kind of justdistinction between haves and
haves not in organizations ofany type corporate professional
(21:37):
services is really terrible andantithetical to what our core is
is to create belonging right.
So I would say that kind ofhits both sides is we have this
one client who it's like so sucha no-brainer.
They didn't even recognize thatthey're being a leader in that
sense.
And then we have the other firmthat's like wait a second, what
(21:57):
are we gonna do?
One Z, two Z for the peoplethat might have a meeting during
the workday?
How are we gonna treat that?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, I would say from an employer perspective.
So, as we've shared with ourstories, it started for us with
new moms.
It started with how can wesupport people through this
really critical inflection pointthat has such a massive
long-term impact on how theydesign their career and their
life right?
And then as we got deeper intothis work, it became clear that
(22:26):
it wasn't just new momstruggling, it was all mom
struggling, it was it doesn'tget easier as your kids get
older, just kind of changes,right.
And then it opened us up todads really really struggling,
looking for connection, alsofeeling hugely isolated, like
they don't have a model for howto take care of work and family
and be a present father the waythey want to be, the way maybe
(22:48):
their parents weren't, and a lotof kind of hunger for that.
And then we opened up tocaregivers and all in there are
many seasons of care over aninflection, that many inflection
points in a career.
You may have a new child andthen you might have a teenager
struggling with mental health,which so many are today.
(23:10):
It's one of our biggest kind ofcohorts, right, is parents of
teenagers right now that arereally struggling.
Or you might have a spousegoing through a cancer treatment
and navigating that, or youmight have a parent with
dementia.
This is all of us, and it ismany times throughout the course
of a career, and so I think forus it's really been a game
changer to build awareness withorganizations that this isn't
(23:33):
just moms of new babies, this isup to 73% of your workforce, so
why aren't we talking about it?
And, by the way, it's oftenyou're most senior leaders that
you're leaving unresourced,because they're the ones,
teenagers, that aren't coveredin the new leave stuff.
They're the ones taking care ofa parent or a sandwich
(23:53):
generation, taking care of both,and so building that awareness
that this problem is so muchbigger and expansive than you
think it is, I think for a lotof them is an aha moment that oh
my gosh, I've had a blind spot.
And so when that moment comes,for us it's often that is when
we can walk through the door andsay, okay, so what are we gonna
(24:15):
do about it?
And so for us, it often startswith just knowing how many
parents and caregivers you haveand that awareness.
Once they see the numbers,there's really nowhere to go but
forward.
And I would say, erika, to yourpoint about taking a step back,
which I don't think is wrong.
I think that in the pandemicthere was a lot of awareness
(24:38):
built.
I'm gonna go jargony here for asecond, but stay with me.
So in social work there is aterm, kind of there's this idea
of how you grow somebody'swillingness to change right, or
their readiness to changepersonally and in other ways.
And the first step is awarenessright.
(24:59):
It's just building awarenessabout what your challenges are,
what's hard for you, what youneed to work on, and then, once
you integrate that awareness,you prepare to take action and
then you take action and thenyou refine right.
That is true at the individuallevel.
It's also true at theorganizational level.
Once you have built awarenessof how big this problem is and
(25:20):
how crazy the numbers are around, how this impacts people's
productivity and their long-termlongevity at work, you can't
fully go back.
And so, while I do think we'rehaving some steps back now, I
think that you know leaders thatare saying you know, in the
return to office negotiationlast year, it felt like a lot of
(25:41):
senior leaders were saying arewe going back yet?
What are we going back?
Are we going back yet?
And we kept saying there is nogoing back Like this.
Awareness is here.
Your employees have differentexpectations of you and of
themselves.
That is not changing, and so,while I think now we're going
through another renegotiation, Ithink that that has not changed
(26:03):
and I would say that the manygenerations in the workforce
right now and as we all know andhave experienced they have very
different expectations.
So I think that what thepandemic didn't do, gen Z is
really pushing forward, and Ithink that is going to take more
creative leaders that arewilling to redesign work
(26:24):
expectations, because I don'tthink there is a going back as
much as we're going to have topush a little bit harder now.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Okay, so I have a lot more questions regarding
employers and the benefit ofchanging the system, but I want
to go back to the individualperson a little bit, because I
know I've experienced burnoutmany times in the past and when
you're in that state it's hardto pause and acknowledge that
you are in fact feeling depleted, right, maybe because you are
(26:52):
going so fast and you know and Igrew up as an immigrant, first
generation immigrant in ourfamily it's like there's no such
a thing as not working hard andyou know victim.
You know like, oh, you're beinga victim, just get up and do
what you have to do and blah,blah, blah.
And self care is kind of likeprivilege, right.
And so I struggle with taking astep back and identifying that
(27:16):
I'm in that state of feelingdepleted and having emotional
fatigue.
So what are some of the systemsor signs that you coach people
through so that they canidentify when they are in fact
in that state?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I love this question, yeah, so I think stress burnout
shows up differently fordifferent people, and so I'll
talk about how we coach ourmembers.
But just personally, betweenCli and I, when we did the
Techstars program, we had theopportunity to do something
called an IMAP assessment andit's, like you know, similar to
(27:53):
Amir's Briggs or something, butone of the specific questions or
you know results in the outputwas how stress shows up, and so
now we have shared the resultswith each other and lean on each
other to call out, and I willshare mine is I'm typically a
pretty friendly person, but Iwill get like short and, like
(28:14):
you know, when I'm stressed,like there is no time for chit
chat, like it stings, you know,and so when Claudia is on the
other end of that, she'll belike waving a flag, you know,
and that's been so incrediblyhelpful and I'll share.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
I'm the literal opposite, which is that when I
am getting into that space ofexacerbated stress and burnout
or I would say importantlycumulative because, right, the
impact of it is cumulative Ithink that's important to have
awareness of I can get reallysensitive.
I can take things personallythat are personal and so I can
like it can just kind of cloudmy judgment, I would say in that
(28:50):
way where it feels like it'sabout me but it's not about me.
And so that is when Adrianstarts to say heads up, this is
where I'm coming from.
But it's hugely valuable.
And this is again where thatpersonal and professional start
to intertwine, because it'sreally valuable to know that,
because it allows us to bebetter teammates, it allows us
(29:13):
to say because can you imagineif we didn't have that awareness
?
And guess what?
We're co-founders, so you knowwhen one of us is stressed,
who's also stressed?
So we're going into the same atthe same time, into those what
they call basement behaviors orstress reactions.
So that awareness again, thisword keeps coming up right,
building that awareness, I think.
Also I heard in the pandemicthere was a lot of stuff about
(29:39):
rage and how rage can surfacefor people when they are super,
super exacerbated and stressedand that is a feeling that often
feels very unfamiliar andyou're like whoa, where did that
come from?
It's really overwhelming.
And somebody said that is yourengine light going on, and I
found that so helpful that likelearning what your burnout or
(30:01):
stress behaviors are andthinking them as the engine
light and then thinking aboutwhat can get you back to
baseline is really valuable.
But I think you were going totalk a little bit about how we
coach people through that.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah.
So I think that the baselinewould be one.
It's very common to notrecognize it in yourself, but if
you can at least start tobecome aware of the engine light
and the indicators whetherthat's in your body we have one
coach who is very into somatichealing, so like, notice how
stress shows up for you but thentell someone about it so that
they can help you, whetherthat's somebody at home or
(30:34):
somebody at work, that's reallyhelpful.
Going back, like socialemotional learning I don't know
for those of you who havechildren, you might notice that
our kids are learning about thisnow.
It's part of curriculum inschools where you have to name
your feelings and then manageyour feelings and then take
mindfulness breaks and move yourbody, and these are all basic
(30:55):
things our kids are learningthat we did not in school.
So one thing that we really docoach our members on, and it's
really woven throughout ourcurriculum, is social emotional
learning.
Like just that connection toyourself, your actual body, your
emotions, where you feelphysically, mentally,
emotionally, is like veryfoundational to be able to
(31:17):
manage the stress or evenrecognize it first.
And then, of course, it's thegroup right.
So knowing that you're not theonly one, the number one
testimonial we get in some formor fashion is I'm bummed to hear
other people are struggling,but I'm really glad to hear I'm
not alone, right.
And so once you know thatyou're in that zone of stress
(31:39):
but you're not alone, and thisis hard, what you're doing is
hard then that can be a hugeunlock too.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
So talking about it with other people, yeah, I wanna
connect these skills to howthey show up at work.
So when we talk about emotionalskills at work, often that
looks like our kind of glossaryor our kind of language around.
Emotional skills at work is solimited.
Often we talk about they're agood manager, they're a bad
(32:08):
manager, and that's pretty muchthe extent of it.
But what drives somebody beinga good manager or a bad manager
often has to do with emotionalskills.
It has to do with are you aneffective communicator?
Do you hold a boundaryeffectively, with grace and with
awareness?
It has to do with do you say no, with context, which is deeply
(32:30):
motivating, or without it, whichis deeply demotivating and
leads to vast performance issues.
And so when you build skills incommunication which we do when
you build skills inself-awareness which we do,
turns out you show up better athome and at work.
And we all know that right,because we have had managers who
(32:52):
don't have those skills rightand we see how it affects other
people around them.
And similarly, one person whodoesn't have these skills and
has the power to create a toxicenvironment has ripple effects
that go far beyond that personto the performance and the
wellbeing of the team.
Similarly, if you have theseskills, the impact goes so far
(33:18):
beyond you, and so what we hearfrom our members is okay, I'm
taking these skills and Iapplied them with my teenage
daughter and I applied them withmy boss and I applied them with
my colleague, and what we oftensay is it expands what's
possible for the people aroundyou.
One interesting kind of toolthat I love we both became kind
of in this process.
(33:38):
We both found coaching andfound it really helpful and
became coach, trained coachesourselves, and one of the tools
that I find really helpful incoaching is everybody has kind
of this.
There's lots of different wordsfor it, but in kind of the
coaching that we did, it'scalled your Savitur, which is
kind of that like inner negativedialogue.
Right, we all have it.
Sometimes it's really loud,sometimes we can quiet it a
(34:00):
little bit more, but we all haveit, and so if you think about
that inner negative dialoguethat's your Savitur, when you
are coming from that place ofyour Savitur or your negative
place a small place, an insecureplace it often calls forth
other people's Savitur.
So when you show up from thatplace, often other people in
(34:21):
response do too, and they don'teven notice it.
The opposite is also true.
When you show up steadier, moreself-aware, that calls that
forth in other people withouteven noticing it.
And so that is the impact ofemotional skills at work.
It expands what is possible foryour team.
And so we have certainly soldinto HR teams because this is a
(34:46):
people issue.
We've sold into DE&I becausethis disproportionately impacts
women and people of color, butwe've also sold into learning
and development teams becausewe're building these emotional
skills which hugely affect howpeople can be resilient at work
and expand what's possible fortheir teams.
So I could talk all day longabout how important this is at
(35:10):
work.
Because I think again back tothis like are we going back this
world where I think, thispre-pandemic world?
I would argue, where I put on mywork hat and then I seamlessly
take it off.
And I put on my mom hat and Iseamlessly take it off and I put
on my caregiver hat and then Iput on my Claudia hat where I am
myself.
Like that's not real and so theexpectation that we could all
(35:32):
do that seamlessly is false andit's hurting us.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
You know there's a saying in venture capital or
private investments in general,that investors are only excited
to make an investment the daythey made the investment and
then after that, like theexcitement kind of wears off.
And the opposite is true for meand I'm sure that for the rest
of the best membership, as wecontinue to talk to you guys,
(35:57):
because I can't stand venturecapital.
To be quite honest with you,the whole industry in itself.
I think it's a broken model.
I don't think it's the solutionto a lot of things, but it's
there, right, and it fuelscompanies and unfortunately, it
has some fuel companies thatactually need to exist.
We see a lot of investmentoften going to like even in AI,
right, like who the hell askedfor?
(36:19):
Like fake celebrities, like asif we needed more, you know
stuff like that, but instead offunding the care infrastructure
or funding things that weactually need desperately, I
read a report recently by BCGthat if we don't fix the care
crisis, we're looking at a $209billion deficit in GDP
consecutively.
(36:40):
So cumulative, like you said,claudia, year over year, that's
a huge loss in GDP as a nationand the fact that we're not
talking about it to me is verytroublesome in a lot of ways.
So again, just to say I'm getmore excited about this
investment and the opportunitiesto build the future of work in
a way that really enables womenand working parents and general
(37:04):
caregivers to stay in theworkforce and be prosperous.
But with that, I wanna talk toyou about something that's very
unique to women.
Right, as women, we've beenprogrammed particularly at work,
particularly in leadershiproles and or particularly if
you're in a toxic workenvironment or in an environment
(37:25):
where it's looked as a weakness.
If you share that, you know youdon't have the capacity to do
more and as a result of that, Ifeel like sometimes we're not
comfortable talking about it.
And as leaders, I know thatI've recognized sometimes when I
have team members where I'vesaid, hey, you need to take a
break, like, just take a break,go be with your family, go do
(37:47):
what you enjoy doing.
But it's sometimes it's hard toaddress that if you know that
the person is not ready to yourpoint.
I think, claudia, you mentionedyou have to be aware you have
to be ready to receive, to wantto receive help.
How can you coach?
Some of us have teams, some ofus are leading teams, some of us
are employers, how would youcoach us to have those
(38:08):
conversations that can beuncomfortable, particularly with
women, or anybody that's notcomfortable, yet accepting that
they're in that state of stressor state of feeling depleted?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
I think the most powerful thing leaders can do is
model.
So, instead of it being aconversation where you are
pushing in to someone and sayingseems like you're really.
I know this is how you exhibitstress, this is your stress.
Seems like you're reallystressed, I think you should
take a day off.
I think that leaders should dothat themselves and be explicit
(38:41):
about it.
I think it can be whether it issomeone who's particularly
stressed that needs a mentalhealth date, saying hey, I'm out
tomorrow, I need a break.
This is, I have this, oh, andeven brownie points.
I would say, if they say we'rein crunch time at work and I
have a lot going on at homeright now with my family, the
level of specifics will dependon the individual right.
(39:03):
Some people are morecomfortable sharing details
about what's going on at homethan others.
But just saying I have a lotgoing on at home right now, in
addition to what we have goingon at work, I'm gonna take a
moment or a day or a day orwhatever it is.
That is implicit permission forother people to do it.
You don't have to have aconversation directly with them.
There are more explicit thingsand we actually, in one of our
(39:27):
quarterly insights, shared thiswith our clients a script that
managers could send saying hey,it's May.
I expect everyone to takevacation over this summer.
I'm going to be taking it onthese days.
I will not be available.
Therefore, a week before myvacation, I'm gonna have
one-on-one meetings with each ofyou to make sure that you have
(39:49):
what you need while I'm gone,because I won't be available.
So, again, exhibiting thedrawing, the boundaries, but
doing it in a professional waythat it's not just like oh I'm
out, you can't call me.
It is making sure that they'resetting themselves up so that
they can be out, and so I thinkthat would be.
My suggestion is it's the mostpowerful is just to model it.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, I think that is top-down, and we hear every day
the impact of people seeingthat from their leadership.
I would say bottom up, oremployee up.
I think there's a lot ofconversation right now about
psychological safety andbringing your full self to work,
and if you feel like you can'tbring your full self to work,
(40:32):
that's okay and that'sreasonable, right.
And so I think this expectationthat we bring all of us
everywhere we go is notrealistic, and so I think that
we gotta free ourselves up fromthat and say, okay, where are
opportunities to show my wholeperson and model that?
And what am I choosingstrategically?
(40:53):
Again from a place of choice,where can I say you know what?
This is a place where it'sreally important that they know
this, and so I'm gonna create acontainer where I know I can
best do that.
So some people communicate mosteffectively in email.
So, if you feel like you, it'ssomething you're not gonna be
comfortable sharing in person,because you know how you're
gonna get the pushback, put anemail, that way you can think
(41:15):
about it and you can be more incontrol of that mechanism.
Or do it one-on-one.
Some people are not ascomfortable, or you know less,
to take it off of the onus offof them.
They're not in a culture wherethat is really reasonable and so
have those conversationsone-on-one.
I think it's really coming froma place of leadership and
(41:35):
making those choices.
But I would free ourselves upfrom this expectation that
you're gonna be your whole selfeverywhere.
Sometimes that's not what youwant and sometimes it's not the
most strategic choice, andthat's okay, right.
You can still click into yourwhole person and now feel this
pressure to be at all the timeeverywhere.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
One other cultural system level thing that is
recommended and we are startingto implement even within Keep
Company, is the micro, meso andmacro breaks.
So, like brain, science showsthat during your day, being in
back-to-back zooms is not goodfor your health and it's only
going to lead to or exacerbateburnout.
So five minutes are your microbreaks throughout the day, and
(42:19):
then the meso is, I think, onehour a week blocking your
calendar, and this is to do, notto go run errands, but to do
something for yourself Take awalk, go get fresh air, exercise
, call a friend, whatever thatmight look like.
And then the macro is like ahalf day a month, and so there's
things like that where it mightfeel hokey and forced, but from
(42:40):
a leadership or a culturalperspective, it sends the
message that this matters.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, and again to building the skill of accessing
personhood.
The first time you take thathour or that half day, you're
going to be like I don't evenknow what to do with myself if
I'm not running errands ortaking things off of my to-do
list.
But the second or the thirdtime we find people saying I
called my sister, or I took thisclass I haven't taken in five
(43:06):
years, or I just sat in silenceat a coffee shop, whatever, and
so it's giving yourself somespace to reconnect with that
stuff that fills you up.
Speaker 5 (43:18):
Yeah, thank you.
After listening to you guys, Idon't know how old are you.
I think that you guys are veryyoung, but I've been in a
leadership situation in the pastfew weeks that I never thought
I would be feeling like I don'tbelong in a group of Latinas
(43:38):
which I thought I belong.
But I'm talking aboutgenerational.
It's because maybe I'm theolder Latina in the room and
this younger generation is sohard to communicate and you use
touch about it when you saidmaybe they can text, maybe send
them a text, maybe send them anemail, and I think our
generation is more.
(43:58):
We just say it like it is.
We don't sugarcoat anything andwe can do it all and we just
have a tough kin and just on away, I've been feeling like,
wait, I'm the only one here thatI don't feel offended by
anything.
So leadership is to a levelwhere, even when you have
generations on people that Iwork with that they're under 20s
(44:21):
, it's exhausting to try to,even if they're coming from the
same culture, even if they areLatina, but try to accommodate
the way they communicate.
And I don't try to be rude withthe people in the room that are
under 20s, but I mean I justdefinitely it is like an
imposter syndrome that I neverthought I would have it with my
(44:44):
own group of ladies, because youwere like I'm too old, you know
, and my ideas are not that youknow bright anymore, so that it
just my guess.
My question is how do you dealwith that stress level of
becoming a leader with differentgenerations in your office?
Speaker 3 (45:05):
So I'm not that young , but I love you for saying that
and this will show.
Because when I was at HP, theCEO at the time was Meg Whitman,
and she was concerned aboutmillennials.
So I actually helped spearheadan initiative because she was
like why is it that millennialscome to work asking what's work
going to do for me, when mygeneration was grateful to have
(45:28):
a job and constantly think abouthow we could make the company
better?
And so it was a true quest thatshe had, and so I think what it
came down to in the researchthat we did, we did reverse
mentoring was really a popularprogram, but what it really came
down to was communication, andwhat we do before we kick off
(45:49):
any group is we train people andhow to supportively listen, and
what that means is putting yourviews or your opinions inside
and holding what we call a safeand brave and judgment free
space, and so it's okay that youhave different views than the
other women on your team.
And it should be okay with themas well, and so it's really
(46:11):
creating an expectation in anorm around we don't have to
necessarily agree on everythingto be able to hold space,
connect, support and lift eachother up.
Even so, I don't you didn't saythis at all, but there's no
right or wrong and I think it isreductive for anyone to put a
(46:32):
person of a generation in a box.
It's about people and it'sabout communication and respect,
and so I think, like, in termsof what does that mean for you
and this group?
I think it could be a reallyhard conversation.
We always say a lot of theremedy to the challenges our
members bring is a hardconversation.
It can be at work or it couldbe at home, and apologies if
(46:54):
this is not the answer or likeis unrelated, but I think it
could be a hard conversationwith your coworkers to say, hey
guys, this is how I'm feeling.
I'm feeling like I don't belongbecause we're of different
generation, we have differentviews, but I want you to know
that, like, I love and respectyou and I'm here to support you
and we are a team and I justwant you to, you know, be sure
(47:16):
that you feel the same way.
And what are some things thatwe can do, what are some norms
that we can co-create togetherto make sure we all feel
included?
And I'm sorry, like I said, Iknow that's a hard conversation
and putting it on your shouldersis, like not necessarily what I
want to do, but I do think,otherwise it might just fester
and calcify.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, and I would just say, to extrapolate that
for people that also lead groups.
So we kind of specialize in thebehavior science and mechanisms
around creating psychologicalsafety in a group, like the
magic of bringing peopletogether that are similar enough
and different enough.
And I will say one of thebiggest challenges is feeling
like you're the lonely onlysomething in a group, which is,
(47:59):
again, a lot of what you'retalking about here is really
really difficult.
And so and you know, as women,we are often the only woman in a
conversation, especially at theleadership level, right, and so
I think that is an exacerbator.
And so I would just say to pullfrom that to the whole group
just a little bit of awarenessthat if there's somebody on your
(48:20):
team who is the lonely onlysomething, building awareness
that opening up those lines ofcommunications with that person
in particular is really criticalfor pulling their voice into
the room.
Because I think that you knowhow powerful would it be that
you walk into that conversationtomorrow, elian, and somebody
says hey, elian, I want to makesure that you're feeling
(48:41):
included in this conversation.
Is there anything you want totalk about?
And just giving you thatopening right would be so
powerful.
And so I think, to the extentthat us as leaders, that we can
model that to Adrienne's earlierpoint and do some of that, it's
a huge opportunity.
It's a huge opportunity.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
One of my favorite sessions at VAS was during COVID
.
We had a Gen C member that wasactually in DC, and then we had
a C-suite member I think she wasbased in Oklahoma and they were
talking about their verydifferent experiences dealing
(49:21):
with COVID and dealing withremote work, and the member the
Gen C member felt like she feltlike she wasn't living up to the
job, that she wanted to do more, but she wasn't hearing from
her employer, and so she wasgiven her perspective, and then
the C-suite member was given herperspective, not hearing from
(49:42):
them.
Anyway, I love what you saidabout just listening with a
mindset of support.
It's not about me right now.
It's about me hearing you andhearing what you have to say and
how you feel, and then we cancome together with a solution.
By the same token, elian, Iwant to tell you that I support
you.
I am becoming that older Latinaand Latina groups when we meet,
(50:07):
and I also have a Gen C girlthat challenges my and I think
I'm very progressive, you knowand she challenged me each and
every day, but I think for thebetter right, even when we
disagree.
So I love this question so muchI'm going to give it to Amy.
And then I also want to remindus we have five minutes, so I'll
(50:28):
give it to Amy for a quickresponse.
And then I really want you,claudia and Adrienne, to close
us with what are three thingsthat we can do if we identify
that we are in that state offeeling depleted.
Speaker 6 (50:41):
I thought I was going to work with young people and
many of you on the call who knowme know forever and I'm 45,
I'll be 46 this year and just tothe point of now I'm like
having to transition to like,really and this goes with what
you just were saying, ericareally I put my hand up before
but learning how to sort oftranslate that generational gap
(51:05):
and not just look at it as achallenge, but like there are
ways that we, you know, there iswisdom in what we have.
So I really appreciate thisconversation.
I haven't been with this groupfor a while.
I went through a career changeof my own, so I'm excited to be
back and committed in 2024 to beparticipating more so.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Welcome back, amy, and congrats on the career
transition.
Let's close with that.
If we are feeling depleted, ifwe are identifying the way or
we're getting ready to likewe're starting to fill the
symptoms that you mentionedbefore, what are three things
that we can do to get out ofthat state?
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, I have two in my night, so I'm going to start
with two and then we can pingpong a little bit.
My first is try to buildawareness of what makes you feel
depleted, and so that lookslike I'm an introvert, and so I
joke that when we go toconferences and things like that
and I'm talking a lot and veryexternal I run out of words by a
(52:05):
certain point of day.
I know I will be exhausted atthe end of the day.
So what can I do?
And with that awareness, howcan I manage my schedule a
little bit differently andthings like that.
So just awareness of the thingsthat drive stress and exacerbate
things for you.
That's the first one.
The second one is build a listand write it down of five things
(52:29):
that fill you up and put it ona sticky note on your desk and
reference it when you need to.
So note to self taking a 10minute walk always helps.
Note to self call this onefriend.
Note to self, right, Like whatare those things?
Because in the moment it canfeel really overwhelming.
But you know yourself, right,you have more tools than you
(52:51):
realize.
So when you are feelingresourced, write them down so
that when you are feeling alittle less resourced, you can
be a friend to yourself in thatmoment right and help yourself
out.
So those are my two Buildawareness of what tends to
exacerbate things and thenmanage accordingly, and then to
(53:12):
write a list of things that canhelp.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Mine are ask for help , ask another human being for
help.
We often think we have to doeverything ourselves.
We don't want to impose onothers, whatever it might be.
I had a situation last weekwhere school closed at half day
because of rain and I hadmeetings.
I couldn't pick up my son andso I asked another mom who I
actually wasn't that close withand she's like, yeah, sure, I'll
(53:36):
pick them up, and she said tome thank you for asking me.
So people want to help.
So ask for help in whateverarena of your life, it would be
most impactful.
And then the other one issaying no.
And this is my challenge.
You can't always.
A nudge from a coach is foreveryone to take the next
whatever 30 seconds after thiscall and think about one thing
(53:57):
you could say no to.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
If you enjoyed this episode, share with a friend and
don't forget to leave us areview.
And if you're ready to takeyour career to the next level,
apply to join our community ofprofessional women, all eager to
help you get there and staythere.
Go to wwwbestherco and applytoday.
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